Is Spurs defense that bad?

[mathbzh]

I was reading all these great thread about the Spurs ranking on defense.

Then I checked the defensive efficiency ranking for the season.

The Spurs are 13th in the league allowing 101.3 pts/100 possession.
That does not sound encouraging.

Then I realized that Dallas has the best efficiency and is ranked 7th overall allowing 98.8 pts/100 possessions. Or that 9 of the top 11 offense play in the West.

Finally I checked the team splits:
West: 96.9 pts/game allowed on 45.6 FG%
East: 95.5 pts/game on 45.2 FG%

Now I wonder how much of the East/West defensive difference comes from the East having so many horrible offensive team.

What you guys think?

[Cow Eye]

That's something that has worried me over this past stretch of games also. Giving up over 100 points regularly...

But, one thing to consider is that on a lot of these games against crap teams, Pop pulls starters, and in general our team starts to play a lot more lazily. We begin with a lot of energy, and tenacious defense, but if the other team just fades away it seems we kinda dial it down a notch.

Not a good thing, imo, but it is what it is. And I'm pretty sure (hope...) it isn't a trend carried into the playoffs.

[SenorSpur]

Yes, they are that bad.

And it's more pronounced when play against a brillant defensive team, like Boston. The Celtics repeatedly forced the Spurs into terrible turnovers, bad shots and closed out well on shooters. Seeing the Celtics exhibit this type of defensive excellence is even more impressive, given their advanced age.

I really wished the Spurs were able to play that type of defense on a consistent basis.

[mathbzh]

Yes, they are that bad.

And it's more pronounced when play against a brillant defensive team, like Boston. The Celtics repeatedly forced the Spurs into terrible turnovers, bad shots and closed out well on shooters. Seeing the Celtics exhibit this type of defensive excellence is even more impressive, given their advanced age.

I really wished the Spurs were able to play that type of defense on a consistent basis.

Boston has a great defense, there's no denying that.
My point is that if we were in the East, hour defense would probably not look that bad.

About Boston defense:
vs. West: 93 PPG allowed 43.6%
vs East: 88.3 PPG 41.2%

I wonder if we can find somewhere the defensive efficiency splits.

[Mel_13]

I was reading all these great thread about the Spurs ranking on defense.

Then I checked the defensive efficiency ranking for the season.

The Spurs are 13th in the league allowing 101.3 pts/100 possession.
That does not sound encouraging.

Then I realized that Dallas has the best efficiency and is ranked 7th overall allowing 98.8 pts/100 possessions. Or that 9 of the top 11 offense play in the West.

Finally I checked the team splits:
West: 96.9 pts/game allowed on 45.6 FG%
East: 95.5 pts/game on 45.2 FG%

Now I wonder how much of the East/West defensive difference comes from the East having so many horrible offensive team.

What you guys think?

I think you make a good point.

6 of the top 7 rated defenses are in the East.

Likewise, 6 of the bottom 7 rated offenses are in the East.

Teams play 48 of 66 games in the conference.

As it is, the Spurs are 13th of 30 overall, but 5th of 15 in the West (and very close to 4th).

It would be interesting to see the rankings and ratings by conference, with only games within the conference counted.

[Bruno]

In East vs. West games, West leads 144-106 this year.

West is the best conference. The explanation for EC teams being at the top of defensive rankings is more than they face bad offensive teams than they are great defensive teams.

Spurs aren't a bad defensive team. They are an average one which is far from their previous level. They could be a better defensive team if pop did some roster changes (Free Tiago, Boris and Patty).

[freetiago]

spurs defense this year is basically forcing opponents to shoot mid range shots
basically beat us by the shot that is statistically the least efficient
its smart move for an aging team but can be frustrating to watch when you wanna see some d played
its why garnett was so open today
theyd rather have garnett beat them by making 19 footers all day then rondo, pierce, allen etc getting in the lane
today it worked as celtics outside of rondo couldnt make a shot
but i dont think pop should be going this route
previously he could do it since out frontline was bonner/blair/40 year old mcdyess/dnd-old duncan
but with tiago/diaw/duncan we have enough post defenders and we have some very good wing defenders as well that he could mix it up

[GSH]

In East vs. West games, West leads 144-106 this year.

West is the best conference. The explanation for EC teams being at the top of defensive rankings is more than they face bad offensive teams than they are great defensive teams.

Spurs aren't a bad defensive team. They are an average one which is far from their previous level. They could be a better defensive team if pop did some roster changes (Free Tiago, Boris and Patty).


Are you really talking about Mills as a defensive upgrade? I'm not arguing with you, because I don't know. The times I have watched him, he didn't strike me as a lock-down defender by any means, and everything I read said that he's not much of a defender at all. But I can see how it could make a diffrernce who he's playing with.

You really think he's that much better than advertised on the defensive end?

[Paranoid Pop]

Are you really talking about Mills as a defensive upgrade? I'm not arguing with you, because I don't know. The times I have watched him, he didn't strike me as a lock-down defender by any means, and everything I read said that he's not much of a defender at all. But I can see how it could make a diffrernce who he's playing with.

You really think he's that much better than advertised on the defensive end?

More like Neal is just that bad on D, he can't stay with anyone, Mills can (doesn't mean he's good but that makes him a decent upgrade).

[Mel_13]

Are you really talking about Mills as a defensive upgrade? I'm not arguing with you, because I don't know. The times I have watched him, he didn't strike me as a lock-down defender by any means, and everything I read said that he's not much of a defender at all. But I can see how it could make a diffrernce who he's playing with.

You really think he's that much better than advertised on the defensive end?

Bruno's case for Mills as a defensive upgrade has much to do with replacing the minutes that Neal plays as a PG.

See this thread (don't miss post #43):

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194082

[GSH]

More like Neal is just that bad on D, he can't stay with anyone, Mills can (doesn't mean he's good but that makes him a decent upgrade).


Bruno's case for Mills as a defensive upgrade has much to do with replacing the minutes that Neal plays as a PG.

See this thread (don't miss post #43):

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194082



Makes sense, when you put it that way.

[Bruno]

Yep, as others have said, it has a lot to do with who these players will take minutes off: Neal as PG, Blair and to a lesser extend Bonner.

[therealtruth]

spurs defense this year is basically forcing opponents to shoot mid range shots
basically beat us by the shot that is statistically the least efficient
its smart move for an aging team but can be frustrating to watch when you wanna see some d played
its why garnett was so open today
theyd rather have garnett beat them by making 19 footers all day then rondo, pierce, allen etc getting in the lane
today it worked as celtics outside of rondo couldnt make a shot
but i dont think pop should be going this route
previously he could do it since out frontline was bonner/blair/40 year old mcdyess/dnd-old duncan
but with tiago/diaw/duncan we have enough post defenders and we have some very good wing defenders as well that he could mix it up

You can't get give NBA players a steady stream of open jumpers and expect them not to knock them down at a high percentage. I have no problem with giving up 2's but you still have to contest the jumpers.

[pgardn]

I was reading all these great thread about the Spurs ranking on defense.

Then I checked the defensive efficiency ranking for the season.

The Spurs are 13th in the league allowing 101.3 pts/100 possession.
That does not sound encouraging.

Then I realized that Dallas has the best efficiency and is ranked 7th overall allowing 98.8 pts/100 possessions. Or that 9 of the top 11 offense play in the West.

Finally I checked the team splits:
West: 96.9 pts/game allowed on 45.6 FG%
East: 95.5 pts/game on 45.2 FG%

Now I wonder how much of the East/West defensive difference comes from the East having so many horrible offensive team.

What you guys think?

If we could somehow remove junk time from those stats...

Overall we are not as quick on D as we should be. Therefore switching and helping, playing the picks out high become very important. Leonard and Green are fairly new to this and they are not our slow footed guys. So it may take time. Tiago is very quick on his feet for a big guy but this is really his 1st year as well. Duncan must rely on guile and timing. Neal and Blair look they are physically unable to move quickly enough. Same with Bonner although he understands the D better imo.

[Seventyniner]

Is there anywhere to see defensive efficiency adjusted to the schedule? It's especially important this year because the schedule is more unbalanced (for in-conference and out-of-conference games) this year than ever before.

[timvp]

Good thread, mathbzh. The fact that the East is so much weaker should factor into defensive rankings ... but it isn't, at least not anywhere that I'm aware of.

But, there's some info available. SOS (strength of schedule) tells you how much above or below average (points-wise) a team's schedule has been so far. Here are the current rankings:

New Orleans Hornets 0.83
Dallas Mavericks 0.74
Memphis Grizzlies 0.67
Oklahoma City Thunder 0.53
Sacramento Kings 0.49
San Antonio Spurs 0.37
Golden State Warriors 0.30
Houston Rockets 0.29
Denver Nuggets 0.27
Los Angeles Lakers 0.24
Los Angeles Clippers 0.23
Minnesota Timberwolves 0.23
Portland Trail Blazers 0.22
Washington Wizards 0.22
Utah Jazz 0.19
Charlotte Bobcats 0.07
Phoenix Suns 0.06
League Average 0.00
Miami Heat -0.02
Cleveland Cavaliers -0.02
Orlando Magic -0.20
Detroit Pistons -0.33
Milwaukee Bucks -0.38
Philadelphia 76ers -0.40
Atlanta Hawks -0.42
Boston Celtics -0.49
New Jersey Nets -0.58
Toronto Raptors -0.65
Chicago Bulls -0.79
Indiana Pacers -0.79
New York Knicks -0.84

To figure out how much each schedule helps/hurts each team, you first have to adjust it for pace since one point is more difficult to overcome for a slow pace team than a fast pace team. Quick and dirty method = DRtg - ((SOS/Pace)*100)

Results:

1 Philadelphia 76ers 98.45
2 Boston Celtics 99.14
3 Chicago Bulls 100.18
4 Dallas Mavericks 100.29
5 Miami Heat 100.62
6 Memphis Grizzlies 100.97
7 New York Knicks 101.30
8 Atlanta Hawks 101.87
9 Oklahoma City Thunder 102.63
10 Los Angeles Lakers 102.73
11 San Antonio Spurs 103.00
12 Orlando Magic 103.22
13 Indiana Pacers 103.77
14 New Orleans Hornets 104.46
15 Portland Trail Blazers 104.56
16 Houston Rockets 104.58
17 Phoenix Suns 105.53
18 Minnesota Timberwolves 105.55
19 Los Angeles Clippers 105.64
20 Milwaukee Bucks 105.81
21 Toronto Raptors 105.93
22 Utah Jazz 106.09
23 Denver Nuggets 106.11
24 Detroit Pistons 107.07
25 Washington Wizards 107.76
26 Golden State Warriors 107.77
27 Cleveland Cavaliers 108.32
28 Sacramento Kings 108.98
29 Charlotte Bobcats 110.02
30 New Jersey Nets 110.25

The Spurs move to 11th by hoping over the Pacers and Magic. Not a huge shift but somewhat noteworthy. Good job :tu

[T Park]

Bruno hits the nail on the head as always.

[Horse]

Yes, they are that bad.

And it's more pronounced when play against a brillant defensive team, like Boston. The Celtics repeatedly forced the Spurs into terrible turnovers, bad shots and closed out well on shooters. Seeing the Celtics exhibit this type of defensive excellence is even more impressive, given their advanced age.

I really wished the Spurs were able to play that type of defense on a consistent basis.
Yeah boston is good defensivley but had plenty of help last night.

[Old School 44]

Spurs are a good defensive team overshadowed by their stellar offense.
With so much depth, I'm hoping Pop solidifies the rotation come playoff time and we see an even better defensive unit.

[DMC]

The Spurs defense is middle of the pack. That works ok in the regular season, but not when you are playing the top tier defensive teams in a best of 7 series.

[Beaverfuzz]

It's been like this for a few years now, the Spurs are not the lock down defensive team they used to be...however they now score more to help for this deficiency.

[DMC]

It's been like this for a few years now, the Spurs are not the lock down defensive team they used to be...however they now score more to help for this deficiency.
They also seem to turn up their defensive intensity later in the game, and win a lot of the close ones because of it.

[therealtruth]

I don't think offense will always be the answer. Consider the 2005 playoffs were the Spurs went with offense to beat the Suns and defense to beat the Pistons. They're going to have to adjust to whether it's an offense first or defense first series. Like I believe last year's Grizzlies series was a defense one. The Spurs needed to play better defense against the Grizzlies to give themselves a chance to win. They couldn't guarantee they would be able to score 100 on the Grizzlies consistently.

[Obstructed_View]

Last night when their offense failed them their defense kept them in it.

[Cry Havoc]

Good thread, mathbzh. The fact that the East is so much weaker should factor into defensive rankings ... but it isn't, at least not anywhere that I'm aware of.

But, there's some info available. SOS (strength of schedule) tells you how much above or below average (points-wise) a team's schedule has been so far. Here are the current rankings:

New Orleans Hornets 0.83
Dallas Mavericks 0.74
Memphis Grizzlies 0.67
Oklahoma City Thunder 0.53
Sacramento Kings 0.49
San Antonio Spurs 0.37
Golden State Warriors 0.30
Houston Rockets 0.29
Denver Nuggets 0.27
Los Angeles Lakers 0.24
Los Angeles Clippers 0.23
Minnesota Timberwolves 0.23
Portland Trail Blazers 0.22
Washington Wizards 0.22
Utah Jazz 0.19
Charlotte Bobcats 0.07
Phoenix Suns 0.06
League Average 0.00
Miami Heat -0.02
Cleveland Cavaliers -0.02
Orlando Magic -0.20
Detroit Pistons -0.33
Milwaukee Bucks -0.38
Philadelphia 76ers -0.40
Atlanta Hawks -0.42
Boston Celtics -0.49
New Jersey Nets -0.58
Toronto Raptors -0.65
Chicago Bulls -0.79
Indiana Pacers -0.79
New York Knicks -0.84

To figure out how much each schedule helps/hurts each team, you first have to adjust it for pace since one point is more difficult to overcome for a slow pace team than a fast pace team. Quick and dirty method = DRtg - ((SOS/Pace)*100)

Results:

1 Philadelphia 76ers 98.45
2 Boston Celtics 99.14
3 Chicago Bulls 100.18
4 Dallas Mavericks 100.29
5 Miami Heat 100.62
6 Memphis Grizzlies 100.97
7 New York Knicks 101.30
8 Atlanta Hawks 101.87
9 Oklahoma City Thunder 102.63
10 Los Angeles Lakers 102.73
11 San Antonio Spurs 103.00
12 Orlando Magic 103.22
13 Indiana Pacers 103.77
14 New Orleans Hornets 104.46
15 Portland Trail Blazers 104.56
16 Houston Rockets 104.58
17 Phoenix Suns 105.53
18 Minnesota Timberwolves 105.55
19 Los Angeles Clippers 105.64
20 Milwaukee Bucks 105.81
21 Toronto Raptors 105.93
22 Utah Jazz 106.09
23 Denver Nuggets 106.11
24 Detroit Pistons 107.07
25 Washington Wizards 107.76
26 Golden State Warriors 107.77
27 Cleveland Cavaliers 108.32
28 Sacramento Kings 108.98
29 Charlotte Bobcats 110.02
30 New Jersey Nets 110.25

The Spurs move to 11th by hoping over the Pacers and Magic. Not a huge shift but somewhat noteworthy. Good job :tu

More importantly, the Spurs are 11th after having Manu Tim and Tony all hurt at one point or another for most of the season.

Most might think that Manu and Tim hurt most when they're out, but don't forget that Tony not only allows us to better control the pace of the game when he's on the floor, he's also an incredibly efficient scorer for a PG, even this season. Playing defense after a made shot is much, MUCH easier than trying to D-up in transition -- even park league basketball will tell you that much. Even if Parker is only playing average defensively, he could help ouyr overall defense by limiting transition opportunities.

I think we've shown flashes of being a very, very good defense this year. The consistency just isn't there (yet). Who knows, maybe with Jax and Diaw it will give us even more looks to really throw at teams in the PO and get us a couple of wins we wouldn't have otherwise.

[DPG21920]

Damn, I know it hasn't produced wins, but amazing that Dallas is still so elite defensively after losing Tyson. They should not be counted out. Dirk + that defense = tough out.