Grades: Spurs vs. Hornets - Apr. 6 [Archive]

timvp

04-07-2012, 02:58 AM

The last time we saw the Spurs they were struggling to score in the second half against the Celtics. On Friday night, the Spurs erased the memory of those offensive woes by dismantling the Hornets by a final score of 128-103.

While the Hornets have the worst record in the West, New Orleans is actually a decent defensive squad -- which makes this scoring output even more impressive. The Spurs have altered their equation and are going to try to win a championship riding their offense; games like tonight allow Spurs fans to believe it may actually be possible.

With the Thunder and Heat losing tonight, the 39-14 Spurs now have the best record in the West and the second best record in the NBA (behind the 43-13 Bulls). Add those facts to the current 10-game winning streak and times are good for Spurs fans.

http://oi40.tinypic.com/xnyx4y.jpg

http://oi43.tinypic.com/2hnx5iu.jpg

Tim Duncan A-
Despite the winning streak and the lowly opponent, Tim Duncan didn't take this game for granted. He came out focused from the start and gave quality effort on both sides of the court. He apparently didn't want to waste time getting this team back on track following the near-loss against Boston. Offensively, his nearly flawless shooting tells the tale of how took apart New Orleans' defense. Duncan had good lift on his jumper and his moves around the bucket were swift. On defense, he covered a lot of ground and got his hands on a lot of balls. The only glaring negative on the night were his turnovers.

Manu Ginobili A
One game after we saw Manu Ginobili play perhaps his worst game of his career, the Argentine sensation was back with a vengeance. In fact, it was one of his most amazingly efficient games of the season. On offense, when he wasn't authoring a breathtaking pass, he was scoring the ball himself. Defensively, Ginobili was very active with his hands and did good work staying in front of his man. To encapsulate how well he played, consider this: with Ginobili on the court, the Spurs outscored the Hornets 64-35 in only 21 minutes of action.

Tony Parker B+
Production-wise, Tony Parker was really good. He was making plays consistently and he defended well. However, I’m a little worried about Parker because he wasn't moving well in the second half against the Celtics and didn't move very well tonight. I’m not sure if he’s tired, hurt or a combination of both. While he has played well lately, it’d be nice to see a handful of vintage performances out of Parker before the end of the regular season. To go far in the playoffs, the Spurs need Parker playing like an MVP candidate and not merely an All-Star.

Kawhi Leonard C+
Though Kawhi Leonard had a few highlight reel plays against New Orleans, it can't be overlooked that he was asked to defend Eric Gordon and wasn't very effective, to put it gently. Gordon seemed to get any look he wanted, whenever he wanted. In the future, Leonard needs to better use his length advantage when taking on Gordon. On offense, Leonard was improved compared to his recent play. He ran the court extremely well and that dunk over Chris Kaman was mean.

DeJuan Blair B-
This game had a little bit of everything we’ve come to expect out of DeJuan Blair this season. Offensively, he had questionable shot selection but converted a few difficult looks around the rim. His passing was a plus but he got sloppy on a number of occasions. Defensively, he wasn't very involved but did manage to make a few mistakes and was invisible on the glass.

Danny Green B-
Danny Green was one of the few players who couldn't find a rhythm tonight. Offensively, he was hesitant and never seemed quite sure about what he wanted to do. Defensively, Green had some decent activity but it wasn’t anything to write home to New York about. Although he does deserve some credit on defense for keeping Trevor Ariza quiet.

Stephen Jackson B
Throughout his career, Stephen Jackson has always been a mediocre rebounder. However, since joining the Spurs a second time, Jackson is rebounding better than ever. Tonight was another example. Offensively, he was an asset. Jackson played at a good pace, scored efficiently and made smart passes. Defensively, though, he was below his recent high standards. He got blow by a couple times and wasn't as timely with his rotations.

Patrick Mills A
It’s difficult not to be really, really impressed with Patrick Mills. He has played 53 minutes for the Spurs and has 41 points, six assists, five rebounds and only three turnovers, while shooting 17-for-25 from the field and 7-for-11 from beyond the three-point arc. Obviously, he’s going to cool off at some point but the start of his Spurs career couldn't have been much better. Tonight, his speed was again very impressive. He’s not quite Tony Parker fast … but he’s close. The best part about Mills and his speed is he utilizes it in every aspect of the game; he’s never not going 100 MPH. He took smart shots against the Hornets, played aggressive and effective defense, and his all-around hustle was contagious. Playing point guard next to Manu Ginobili can be tricky but Mills seems to have already figured it out and isn't holding onto the ball too long. So far, the Australian has done great work.

Boris Diaw C+
It just wasn't a very good game for Boris Diaw. Defensively, he got caught out of position a few times and ended up being forced to foul. While he made a couple really nice plays on D, his overall production on that end was a negative. On offense, his passing was uncharacteristically off target. The timing wasn't there and he wasn't hitting shooters in their hands; too often players had to reach for Diaw's passes. Also uncharacteristically, Diaw showed a healthy amount of aggression when it came time for him to score.

Gary Neal B
Gary Neal had a solid affair that didn't have the ups and downs of his recent outings. When running point guard, he sometimes dribbled too much and wasn’t getting the team into their sets quickly – but the end results were usually good and he finished the game without a turnover. Neal had relatively good shot selection and his defensive level was acceptable. He still had a few errors but his effort on that end was much better than it's been lately.

Matt Bonner B
It was a nondescript yet quality outing for Matt Bonner. On defense, he pulled down a few contested boards and also held his ground in the paint very well. Offensively, I thought his shot selection was a little bit iffy but you'd rather have Bonner be too aggressive than too passive.

Tiago Splitter B-
Offensively, Tiago Splitter was a definite positive. His hands were great; Splitter saved a couple would-be turnovers by snatching the ball away from the defenders. His screens were even better than usual and his passing was really good. Unfortunately, I didn't like his work on the defensive end. He was a bit lazy at times and bit soft other times. I realize the Spurs had a big lead but Splitter can't afford to get bad habits when there is such a competition for minutes. It is also worrisome that he played so few minutes but still looked absolutely exhausted at times. I don't know if he's not in basketball shape since returning from his back injury or he's just not a player who can play a lot of minutes.

James Anderson B+
For a deep bench option, James Anderson is really useful. He's playing with a lot of energy on both ends of the court. His offensive confidence is growing, particularly his confidence in his ball-handling ability. I especially like that he's always ready to play. Even if he doesn't produce, it's not because he’s unprepared.

Pop A-
There’s really nothing to complain about regarding Pop. The Spurs got a blowout win and Pop gave first half minutes to both Diaw and Mills to help with their integration. Nobody played more than 25 minutes, which is important since rest will be such a rare commodity going forward.

TheSkeptic

04-07-2012, 03:02 AM

Thanks :toast

BillMc

04-07-2012, 03:09 AM

Great job as always. Your grades are always the first thing I check after a Spurs game.

siraulo23

04-07-2012, 03:15 AM

TJastal

04-07-2012, 03:19 AM

great read

i thought jax played a little better than a B though, prolly an A- tbh

Its so great to have jax, when the defense run him off the 3 pt line, he can just put the ball on the floor and go to work and his ability to post up smaller players really give another dimension to the spurs offense

I think it's time for Pop to consider Jack in the starting lineup with Khawi hitting the rookie wall and being only 20 years old.

roycrikside

04-07-2012, 03:20 AM

I think Pop erred in just not resting Tony completely. We've got a b2b coming up with Utah and you'd think Tim and Manu would sit out one each of those, so why not rest the youngest of the big three and the one the most banged up currently in this one?

roycrikside

04-07-2012, 03:22 AM

LJ, I think you were too hard on Kawhi and not hard enough on Green. From what I saw Gordon had half his points on each of them in the first quarter. He scored a couple buckets on Manu in the 2nd, but overall I don't think he was torching the same guy over and over.

spurs1990

04-07-2012, 03:22 AM

Ok so its confirmed he's going by Patrick instead of Patty?

SpursFan0728

04-07-2012, 03:23 AM

thanks for the grades!

Redshadows

04-07-2012, 03:27 AM

Duncan, Diaw and Splitter share the time on center?
More Diaw means less Splitter???

TheSkeptic

04-07-2012, 03:30 AM

Duncan, Diaw and Splitter share the time on center?
More Diaw means less Splitter???

Looks like it.

Which is strange because I thought Diaw was a Power Forward myself.

TJastal

04-07-2012, 03:35 AM

Looks like it.

Which is strange because I thought Diaw was a Power Forward myself.

:lmao

The hits just keep coming for poor Tiago.

TDMVPDPOY

04-07-2012, 03:35 AM

free tiago

TheSkeptic

04-07-2012, 03:46 AM

:lmao

The hits just keep coming for poor Tiago.

:lol

No joke. At this point, I wouldn't even get mad if he attempted to negotiate a buyout in the off-season. Though if he blew up on another team I'd be furious...

As an aside, it's good to see that Manu and Tim are really rounding into form.

04-07-2012, 04:02 AM

Thanks for the write up, not gonna disagree with you tonight. Spot on with every player analysis.

jiggy_55

04-07-2012, 04:06 AM

I hope/think that the reason for Splitter's low minutes tonight is cuz Duncan is due a night off or 2 with this upcoming brutal stretch, and then it will be expected of Splitter to play 30+mins.. I wouldn't be surprised if Popovich rests Duncan on that back to back 2nd game @ Utah..

chazley

04-07-2012, 04:25 AM

jiggy_55

04-07-2012, 04:33 AM

jiggy_55

04-07-2012, 04:53 AM

GNeal14 (https://twitter.com/intent/user?screen_name=GNeal14) Gary Neal

Shut The Fuck Up!!!!!

about 1 hour ago (https://twitter.com/GNeal14/status/188546468309778432)

What's that about?
(https://twitter.com/GNeal14/status/188546468309778432)

Maybe some whiny and bitchy fans?

So Danny Green has replied to him saying: "@GNeal14 delete dat bro, asap"

https://twitter.com/#!/DGreen_14/status/188560942827712512

Kamnik

04-07-2012, 04:54 AM

Thanks for the recap as always!

Paranoid Pop

04-07-2012, 05:13 AM

Thanks for the grades! For the first time since I'm here I actually disagree with most grades lol.

TP looked to pass and he was doing a stellar running things early when it was still a game, it's like he's not even the same player as last year, not sure what else he could have done in 16 min.

Earlier in the season Kawhi had a hard time staying in front of 3s, now he pretty much fixed that but it's pretty obvious to me that his feet are not quick enough to guard 2s for long period of times, if anything that's on Pop imo.

Bonner looked way worse than Diaw on D.

Mills I'd say may very well be faster than Tony actually but he couldn't defend his man close to the basket to save his life, his hustle on the open court wasn't a bonus, he doesn't have any other choice but to go for steals, and his passing doesn't look much better than Neal (actually it doesn't look as good so far).

Darkwaters

04-07-2012, 05:42 AM

Thanks timvp!

angelbelow

04-07-2012, 05:56 AM

Thanks for the grades.

Some observations:

Haha Dejuan really loves dunking against the Hornets.

Landry ate up Diaw's defense a few weeks ago. Boris was able to better stay in front of him tonight but couldn't limit Landry's production. Diaw's offensive rebounding has been solid so far. He puts himself in a good position for a possible tip in, straight up offensive rebound, or a tap out.

Good to see Gordon out there. During the great Clipper/Blake band wagon of 2011, I caught a large number of Clipper games because that's what everyone wanted to do. Gordon was the funnest to watch for me because hes tough, doesn't give up and loves pressure. Btw, Speedy defenders do a better job on Gordon because 1. hes actually not a great ball handler and 2. hes offensively good enough to abuse some of the best defenders in the league.

Matt Bonner isn't shooting the ball well. In fact, in the past 5 games, he is only shooting 23.8% from beyond the arc. However, I heavily disagree that his shots were questionable. They were either open or great looks (in the boston game too) so he should keep firing and hopefully, he doesn't not worry about the misses too much.

Nice to see Mills continue to play well. He inspires a lot of confidence for a 3rd string PG. If he can improve his play making and keep his defense consistent, hes probably a 2nd string PG too.

Didn't stick around for the 2nd half so those were all first half observations only.

biziofromdowntown

04-07-2012, 06:31 AM

Thank TMVP, i appreciate ur writing as usual!

biskvito

04-07-2012, 06:47 AM

Splitter seemed a bit frustrated with the fact he was at the end of the bench, only ahead of Anderson. I think Pop is starting to get under Tiago's skin.

TDMVPDPOY

04-07-2012, 06:56 AM

i dont know why splitter is in the doghouse for no apparent reason, fck pop

jcrod

04-07-2012, 07:38 AM

Didn't watch the game, but as always thanks for your insight. Always informative and to the point. For such negative feedback and still pull out an 20+ win is great, even if it was the hornets.

Duncan - great to see him so lively and believe in the team.
Parker- always been a tp fan and think he's just cruising right now. Its good to see he knows he's the man.
Manu- coming off the bench has been great for him more than ever. With tp being in mvp form he know he's opportunity will be with the second unit and he's doing great.
Pop- I'm still not happy how he's rotating the group, but you can't argue the record. He pushed the right buttons more this yr than ever. He still needs to play tiago more and I think with diaw. Still too many mins to blair and bonner. Ill know he'll bring down the rotation down come playoff, that's why I think he should sacriffice more games and get diaw more accustomed to their sets.

Love this team right now!

100%duncan

04-07-2012, 07:53 AM

Thanks for the write up LJ. Glad that the Spurs are back on track

Sa_Spursfan20

04-07-2012, 09:11 AM

Thanks for the grades!

I was really impressed last night by the performance of the Spurs. It was an absolute blast to watch. My only real concern is Tiago...I'm really starting to wonder as to why he is so far down the bench these days. Whatever it is, I really hope he can get out of it ASAP. We need him big time come playoff time...

Cant_Be_Faded

04-07-2012, 09:29 AM

The splitter situation sucks balls.

But I have to believe that if and when we encounter lakers or grizzlies in playoffs, that Pop will give h the big Brazilian more minutes

GSH

04-07-2012, 09:39 AM

i dont know why splitter is in the doghouse for no apparent reason, fck pop

If it was for an apparent reason, then you would also know why.

thOOdee

04-07-2012, 10:09 AM

Great job as always. Your grades are always the first thing I check after a Spurs game.

Wild Cobra Kai

04-07-2012, 10:18 AM

Wait! I thought Diaw was in the doghouse. Oh, that was last game.

Someone is going to either get short minutes or sit out every game. It was Splitter's turn in the barrel.

Wild Cobra Kai

04-07-2012, 10:19 AM

Terrible job as usual timvp. Your grades are always the last thing I check after I've exhausted all the spot-on anal ysis in the NBA forum.

I completely disagree with your grades and in fact would give everyone the exact opposite of what you did.

Don't be bitter, pinky....

ChumpDumper

04-07-2012, 10:26 AM

Tiago Splitter B-
...It is also worrisome that he played so few minutes but still looked absolutely exhausted at times. I don't know if he's not in basketball shape since returning from his back injury or he's just not a player who can play a lot of minutes. I'm beginning to think the latter, unfortunately. He has looked prematurely gassed almost every game I've seen him play significant minutes -- even before the injury. Don't know what could be done about it now.

therealtruth

04-07-2012, 10:34 AM

The splitter situation sucks balls.

But I have to believe that if and when we encounter lakers or grizzlies in playoffs, that Pop will give h the big Brazilian more minutes

Pop's got a secret plan. He's keeping Splitter's minutes low so he can unleash him in the playoffs. Teams won't know what hit them.

The_Worlds_finest

04-07-2012, 10:38 AM

Is it wrong to say kawhi plays with more balls then rj ever did?

DPG21920

04-07-2012, 11:06 AM

I've seen Tiago play consistently more minutes (before the Spurs) and handle it fine. How can a player get into shape when they don't practice and he barely plays?

ChumpDumper

04-07-2012, 11:10 AM

I've seen Tiago play consistently more minutes (before the Spurs) and handle it fine. How can a player get into shape when they don't practice and he barely plays?There are scores of NBA bench players who do that just fine.

DPG21920

04-07-2012, 11:12 AM

They do? I can point to several players who are out of shape because they haven't been playing or practicing.

You also said you thought it was the "latter" when we have all seen Tiago handle much bigger minutes just fine.

ChumpDumper

04-07-2012, 11:13 AM

They do? I can point to several players who are out of shape because they haven't been playing or practicing.I can point to several who aren't.

You also said you thought it was the "latter" when we have all seen Tiago handle much bigger minutes just fine.Have we?

Mel_13

04-07-2012, 11:18 AM

I've seen Tiago play consistently more minutes (before the Spurs) and handle it fine.

Per game, yes in a 2 game a week league.

Per month, no. Even with his limited minutes, Tiago was well into uncharted territory for minutes per month when he went down with the calf injury.

BRs.Ganso

04-07-2012, 11:26 AM

Splitter did a jump shot yesterday! lol

benefactor

04-07-2012, 11:34 AM

I really hope that this year is different as far as rotations go. There has always been a set rotation for the playoffs but the Spurs have never had this many effective weapons. Going from series to series and matchup to matchup rotation-wise will determine the Spurs ability to go where this team want's to go in the playoffs.

TJastal

04-07-2012, 11:43 AM

I'm beginning to think the latter, unfortunately. He has looked prematurely gassed almost every game I've seen him play significant minutes -- even before the injury. Don't know what could be done about it now.

+1

Must be one of those freaky bad breaks in life.... I hear premature fatigue happens alot to 27-year old guys. Such a shame.

TJastal

04-07-2012, 11:44 AM

Per game, yes in a 2 game a week league.

Per month, no. Even with his limited minutes, Tiago was well into uncharted territory for minutes per month when he went down with the calf injury.

Poor bloke lost his way he was so far over his head. I wonder if he can start planning his retirement next year.

TheSkeptic

04-07-2012, 11:48 AM

Splitter seemed a bit frustrated with the fact he was at the end of the bench, only ahead of Anderson. I think Pop is starting to get under Tiago's skin.

I thought this was true a while ago but I wasn't sure if I was seeing things.

Per game, yes in a 2 game a week league.

Per month, no. Even with his limited minutes, Tiago was well into uncharted territory for minutes per month when he went down with the calf injury.

I agree and disagree.

On the one hand he was somewhat in "uncharted territory" but tbh I think it's just that he's a guy who needs consistency. I should think that if he were to play more minutes in smaller stretches he'd probably do okay.

Tiago seems to be a big-minutes type. Nothing he does on purpose or anything I'd say but that's just how he is. You'll get more out of him if you give him plenty of court time to get going and the ball. He's not naturally a 6th man type player I don't think.

Plus I don't think active players get to work out much before games so they need minutes to stay in game shape. This whole business of yanking around his minutes and not giving him a clear role is, imo, more likely to cause even more injuries because he won't be in top-notch shape after sitting on the bench so long. Assuming he doesn't just give up sometime before then.

Of course, I've never agreed with you when it comes to minutes and injuries so there's that. :lol

Mel_13

04-07-2012, 11:59 AM

I thought this was true a while ago but I wasn't sure if I was seeing things.

I agree and disagree.

On the one hand he was somewhat in "uncharted territory" but tbh I think it's just that he's a guy who needs consistency. I should think that if he were to play more minutes in smaller stretches he'd probably do okay.

Tiago seems to be a big-minutes type. Nothing he does on purpose or anything I'd say but that's just how he is. You'll get more out of him if you give him plenty of court time to get going and the ball. He's not naturally a 6th man type player I don't think.

Plus I don't think active players get to work out much before games so they need minutes to stay in game shape. This whole business of yanking around his minutes and not giving him a clear role is, imo, more likely to cause even more injuries because he won't be in top-notch shape after sitting on the bench so long. Assuming he doesn't just give up sometime before then.

Of course, I've never agreed with you when it comes to minutes and injuries so there's that. :lol

It wasn't "somewhat", it was by a considerable margin.

Quick overview:

During his career in Europe, Tiago never reached 1500 minutes in seasons that last 7 1/2 to 8 months and schedules that called for two games a week. Our European friends have told us that he was subject to small, nagging injuries playing those 2 games/week and about 200 minutes/month.

In January he played 367 minutes in 18 games. That's a huge increase from any minutes and games load he had ever played before.

What happened next? A small calf injury in February and a small back injury in March. With time off due to those injuries, he played 193 minutes in each of those two months.

jjktkk

04-07-2012, 12:02 PM

Thanks for the grades and recap Tim.

TheSkeptic

04-07-2012, 12:03 PM

It wasn't "somewhat", it was by a considerable margin.

Quick overview:

During his career in Europe, Tiago never reached 1500 minutes in seasons that last 7 1/2 to 8 months and schedules that called for two games a week. Our European friends have told us that he was subject to small, nagging injuries playing those 2 games/week and about 200 minutes/month.

In January he played 367 minutes in 18 games. That's a huge increase from any minutes and games load he had ever played before.

What happened next? A small calf injury in February and a small back injury in March. With time off due to those injuries, he played 193 minutes in each of those two months.

Yeah I saw those numbers in another thread. I was just softening my disagreement with your point and ended up understating the wrong thing. :lol

Mel_13

04-07-2012, 12:07 PM

Yeah I saw those numbers in another thread. I was just softening my disagreement with your point and ended up understating the wrong thing. :lol

No problem.

I like what you bring to the board. Thoughtful posts delivered with respect and civility. I may not agree with all of your takes, but that's just fine.

TheSkeptic

04-07-2012, 12:12 PM

No problem.

I like what you bring to the board. Thoughtful posts delivered with respect and civility. I may not agree with all of your takes, but that's just fine.

Thanks.

I'd actually say the same thing about you. :)

Vic Petro

04-07-2012, 12:17 PM

The splitter situation sucks balls.

But I have to believe that if and when we encounter lakers or grizzlies in playoffs, that Pop will give h the big Brazilian more minutes

Mugen

04-07-2012, 12:27 PM

Bonner/Blair with guaranteed minutes.

Diaw/Splitter fighting for the 4th big spot.

:lol Pop

silverblk mystix

04-07-2012, 12:49 PM

Bonner/Blair with guaranteed minutes.

Diaw/Splitter fighting for the 4th big spot.

:lol Pop

Whisky Dog

04-07-2012, 12:53 PM

hooperflash

04-07-2012, 01:06 PM

Free Tiago!

TheSkeptic

04-07-2012, 01:08 PM

Should Pop think about getting Leonard some rest? With the depth maybe he should scale him back to about 10 min a game for a few games to see if he can get his legs back and ease past the wall. He look like he's ready to tap out at times.

It seems like Leonard hasn't been playing as much as of late.

He's been below his season average for the last 3 games...

T Park

04-07-2012, 01:13 PM

So Tiago plays a career record of minutes gets hurt and looks gassed.

But hey, again, Spurstalk are the experts on basketball so Pop obviously is the idiot.

timvp

04-07-2012, 01:19 PM

T Park

04-07-2012, 01:24 PM

Him being fatigued with that little of minutes is just hilarious.

TheSkeptic

04-07-2012, 01:30 PM

I'm not too worried about the Splitter situation right now. Even if Pop doesn't play him much, he likes him enough to run the offense through him for just about every possession he's on the court. I'd get worried if that changes.

And I completely disagree that Splitter looks upset. Last night he asked to come out of the game twice due to fatigue. A player who is upset about minutes doesn't do that, tbh.

I like your optimism.

Maybe not this game (I didn't catch all of it) but last season I definitely got the impression that Splitter wasn't okay with sitting and I'd say the difference this season is that he's happy to be getting minutes period.

If anything, the fatigue factor confirms what I'm already thinking which is that he needs to be playing in shorter stints. (Granted he might have been against New Orleans but in general).

timvp

04-07-2012, 01:44 PM

2centsworth

04-07-2012, 01:48 PM

spurs10

04-07-2012, 01:48 PM

2centsworth

04-07-2012, 01:50 PM

Makes me wonder if Pop is indeed playing Splitter as much as he can. I'm more concerned about if Diaw is going to get some pt in the playoffs.

Diaw is light years better than Blair

Cant_Be_Faded

04-07-2012, 01:53 PM

I'm not too worried about the Splitter situation right now. Even if Pop doesn't play him much, he likes him enough to run the offense through him for just about every possession he's on the court. I'd get worried if that changes.

And I completely disagree that Splitter looks upset. Last night he asked to come out of the game twice due to fatigue. A player who is upset about minutes doesn't do that, tbh.

I missed that.

Where are the resident euro posters to give us info about Tiago and fatigue issues while playing overseas

I have to lose a little respect for the big guy of he gets tired with 18-22 minutes
That's just sad

DPG21920

04-07-2012, 01:55 PM

Smh

Cant_Be_Faded

04-07-2012, 01:55 PM

The fat ass is giving the spurs next to nothing. B- is way too generous.

Jack needs to start ahead of Danny Green. Green is way too green and inconsistent to start for a championship team. He needs to come off the bench and if he's making plays then he can play more minutes.

I think Jackson's role is perfect.

unless theprevailing theory wins out and out depth is useless in the playoffs, then I'd definitely start him in a shorter rotation situation.

Danny has been doing a fine job starting so far, IMO

TheSkeptic

04-07-2012, 01:58 PM

Tbh, I'm now resigned to the fact that Pop won't play Duncan and Splitter together in the playoffs. I thought that Pop should have played the two together during the regular season in case he needed that alignment in the postseason ... but it hasn't happened and likely won't happened.

Then again, I'm interested to see what Pop does against the Lakers. Playing them three times before the end of the regular season is actually a good thing because it should allow Pop to figure out if the Spurs can survive without using Duncan and Splitter against Bynum and Gasol. If Pop realizes he needs those two together, it'd be frustrating because he wasted so much time ignoring that combo but there'd probably be enough time for a crash course.

Ah. So that's your angle.

I completely agree with you on this one.

I missed that.

Where are the resident euro posters to give us info about Tiago and fatigue issues while playing overseas

I have to lose a little respect for the big guy of he gets tired with 18-22 minutes
That's just sad

Doesn't he typically play that 18-22 in about 2 shifts though?

ElNono

04-07-2012, 02:00 PM

thanks for the writeup!

TheSkeptic

04-07-2012, 02:01 PM

I think Jackson's role is perfect.

unless theprevailing theory wins out and out depth is useless in the playoffs, then I'd definitely start him in a shorter rotation situation.

Danny has been doing a fine job starting so far, IMO

Jax has been a good addition but I'd be fine with him starting. I like Green and he's definitely been a good contributor but I'd be a lot more comfortable with either Manu or Jax starting.

Not to mention that Jax/Leonard makes for a good defensive combination at the wings which we'll need since the interior just won't be very strong imo.

The Spurs will definitely need to go deeper than other teams in the playoffs but I think 13 is too much. :lol

DPG21920

04-07-2012, 02:03 PM

With pops big man rotation he will be forced to play his depth in the playoffs.

Bruno

04-07-2012, 02:26 PM

What's weirder about Pop refusal to play Splitter alongside Duncan is that he wasn't at against him last summer.

Last may, he said:
http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/article/Splitter-cast-as-Duncan-sidekick-1379352.php

Though Splitter did not spend much time paired with Duncan this season, and doesn't have a jumper to spread the floor as McDyess did, Popovich thinks the two could coexist. For proof, he points to Fabricio Oberto, a player similar to Splitter who started next to Duncan on the Spurs' 2007 championship team.

“We played with two bigs before, when Fab was here,” Popovich said. “Fab and Timmy were the starters, and we got it done.”

DPG21920

04-07-2012, 02:28 PM

I'm telling people Pop is not high on Splitter. Everything he says or does points to this conclusion.

FuzzyLumpkins

04-07-2012, 02:31 PM

Mugen

04-07-2012, 02:31 PM

Pop can get away with not giving Tiago his due mins if he avoids Mem/LA in the playoffs.

He doesn't need a Tim/Tiago pairing to beat the other elite teams. But him thinking that Bonner or Blair can hang with Zbo/Mar or Bynum/Pau is just foolish.

spurs10

04-07-2012, 02:31 PM

The fat ass is giving the spurs next to nothing. B- is way too generous.

Jack needs to start ahead of Danny Green. Green is way too green and inconsistent to start for a championship team. He needs to come off the bench and if he's making plays then he can play more minutes.
When Jack and Kawhi closed out a recent game and Pop went small, wasn't Jack playing more of the 4 role. He's currently coming off the bench at the 3 for Kawhi, are you seeing him as a 2?

Mugen

04-07-2012, 02:35 PM

I'm telling people Pop is not high on Splitter. Everything he says or does points to this conclusion.

Yup. He isn't high on Tiago in terms of basketball skill.

I think he considers him a blue collar guy in the mode of Nazr/Rasho when Tiago is a high IQ player with great skills for a big man.

The not being able to handle big mins. is your typical Popfan excuse. I'm sure if Pop ran Tiago with timmy where he doesn't have to be the main focal point on offense and have to cover up for Bonner's D, he'd be fine handling 25-30 mins.

Paranoid Pop

04-07-2012, 02:39 PM

Wait! I thought Diaw was in the doghouse. Oh, that was last game.

Someone is going to either get short minutes or sit out every game. It was Splitter's turn in the barrel.

It's pretty obvious to me that there's a shortened PO rotation we see in games against good teams when the schedules allows it and a regular-season-everyone-can-play rotation for the remaining games. Indiana and Boston clearly belong to the first category.

Hope I'm wrong but imo that's how it is.

The MEM and LAL games will answer a lot of questions tho.

timvp

04-07-2012, 02:40 PM

What's weirder about Pop refusal to play Splitter alongside Duncan is that he wasn't at against him last summer.

If you remember, Splitter and Duncan played together 15 minutes in the season opener. Since then, it's been a downward spiral. I can't even remember the last time Pop willfully played Duncan next to Splitter. The recent occurrences were almost all due to either injury or foul trouble.

spurs10

04-07-2012, 02:42 PM

Yup. He isn't high on Tiago in terms of basketball skill.

I think he considers him a blue collar guy in the mode of Nazr/Rasho when Tiago is a high IQ player with great skills for a big man.

The not being able to handle big mins. is your typical Popfan excuse. I'm sure if Pop ran Tiago with timmy where he doesn't have to be the main focal point on offense and have to cover up for Bonner's D, he'd be fine handling 25-30 mins.
This is true, when Tiago is playing he's the focal point on offense and the only one defending the $###ing basket. The 3 games against the Lakers will indeed tell the tale. If the rotations are 32/16 minutes for Tim and Tiago, and 24/24 for Blair and Bonner...it's going to be tough.

DPG21920

04-07-2012, 02:42 PM

Either that or there is a variable that you are not considering. Its bad enough that you guys act like you know more about basketball than Pop but acting like your body of knowledge is the only wellspring to pull from is even worse. Hubris upon hubris.

Just saying there might be other variables is a cop out in the context of discussion on a message board. When all else fails look at what is actually happening vs what you think should happen. You then arrive at your logical answer given the known variables.

DPG21920

04-07-2012, 02:44 PM

If you remember, Splitter and Duncan played together 15 minutes in the season opener. Since then, it's been a downward spiral. I can't even remember the last time Pop willfully played Duncan next to Splitter. The recent occurrences were almost all due to either injury or foul trouble.

So why does Pop downplay Tiago's abilities publicly and not give him minutes (even when Tim is limited in a game minutes-wise?

Why does he also invent things (not fair to the team...) that when examined hold little truth in your opinion?

ChumpDumper

04-07-2012, 02:59 PM

OK, why do you insist Splitter can play more when he asks to be taken out of games himself?

Spurs da champs

04-07-2012, 03:00 PM

OK, why do you insist Splitter can play more when he asks to be taken out of games himself?

I've noticed how gassed he looks at times as well, but when has he asked to be taken out of games?

ChumpDumper

04-07-2012, 03:02 PM

And I completely disagree that Splitter looks upset. Last night he asked to come out of the game twice due to fatigue. A player who is upset about minutes doesn't do that, tbh.

DPG21920

04-07-2012, 03:06 PM

ChumpDumper

04-07-2012, 03:12 PM

Because I've seen him play more minutes in condensed schedules (ACB tournament, even if it's not as long of a period)But he didn't play a condensed NBA season before that.

He's played more minutes in games this season and been fine and never asked for a sub. Eh, can't ask you to prove a negative. We can only go by when he did ask to come out.

All I'm saying is people, right or wrong, keep trying to invent reasons why he's not being played when it seems obvious to me when you just step back and look at what's actually been said and actually happened it paints a clearer picture even if many of us don't agree.People try to fit their agenda to everything they observe and refuse to see what's actually observable.

His looking gassed much of the season and asking to be taken out are not inventions.

timvp

04-07-2012, 03:12 PM

So why does Pop downplay Tiago's abilities publiclyEh, I don't put much stock into what Pop says. Tbh, I think Pop thought Splitter was soft at first so he's been a little bit tough on him.

Plus, when Pop calls him blue-collar, that's not really a negative. Pop's favorite type of player are the blue-collar type.

and not give him minutes (even when Tim is limited in a game minutes-wise?When has that happened in a non-blowout? Splitter has always at least played the minutes behind Duncan unless it's a blowout vs. a weak team.

We'll get a lot better idea of what Pop has in mind for Splitter with three games left against the Lakers and one against Memphis w/ Randolph. Shall be interesting.

DPG21920

04-07-2012, 03:14 PM

How do we not know what he has planned after seeing the majority of the season and last year?

Also, why would he not play Tiago more if it's a blow out?

DPG21920

04-07-2012, 03:15 PM

But he didn't play a condensed NBA season before that.

Eh, can't ask you to prove a negative. We can only go by when he did ask to come out.

People try to fit their agenda to everything they observe and refuse to see what's actually observable.

His looking gassed much of the season and asking to be taken out are not inventions.

He hasn't looked gassed much of the season. Just recently since coming back from injury with no practice and reduced pt. You don't get gassed easily and produce well, which he has consistently.

ChumpDumper

04-07-2012, 03:19 PM

He hasn't looked gassed much of the season. Just recently since coming back from injury with no practice and reduced pt. You don't get gassed easily and produce well, which he has consistently.Of course it's subjective, but he looked gassed early in the season to me, and that was after six games averaging about 27 mpg in Europe.

You can counter by saying he looked awesome then, I suppose.

Spurs da champs

04-07-2012, 03:20 PM

Also, why would he not play Tiago more if it's a blow out?
Maybe because he thinks Tiago is an important piece to the puzzle & doesn't want him getting another silly injury like back spasms?

Mel_13

04-07-2012, 03:20 PM

JWhen all else fails look at what is actually happening vs what you think should happen. You then arrive at your logical answer given the known variables.

How do we not know what he has planned after seeing the majority of the season and last year?

Watching how Tiago has actually been used for the overwhelming majority of this season, one would logically conclude, based on the known variables, that Tiago would continue to be used as the backup center to Tim Duncan.

timvp

04-07-2012, 03:20 PM

As for Splitter asking out, here are more specifics: halfway through the fourth Pop told Mills to go in for SJax but Splitter pointed at Pop (the sign to ask for a rest) so Pop told Mills to get Splitter instead. For the record, Splitter had played the previous nine minutes.

The players have been told to ask out of games immediately if they get tired or they feel any tightness ... so it's better than Splitter asked out rather than risk injury.

DPG21920

04-07-2012, 03:21 PM

Manu is more injury prone than Tiago and plays more minutes, does pop not think he is vital?

DPG21920

04-07-2012, 03:24 PM

Watching how Tiago has actually been used for the overwhelming majority of this season, one would logically conclude, based on the known variables, that Tiago would continue to be used as the backup center to Tim Duncan.

Exactly, and that means barely any minutes in the payoffs. However, when Tim has limited minutes (blowouts...) Tiagos minutes are still not inversely related.

timvp

04-07-2012, 03:24 PM

Also, why would he not play Tiago more if it's a blow out?

1. Splitter is proven. He's not going to get any better in a blowout. Everyone knows what Splitter can do. As Pop says, Splitter has been doing the same things for the last ten years. Someone like Diaw needs those minutes much more in order to learn the system.

2. Splitter is prone to coming down with nagging injuries. For that reason, he's one of the last players I want seeing playing meaningless minutes. For example, someone like SJax is an important piece to the puzzle but I'd rather him play meaningless minutes because he's someone who has played huge minutes in the past while staying healthy.

DPG21920

04-07-2012, 03:26 PM

Mel_13

04-07-2012, 03:27 PM

Exactly, and that means barely any minutes in the payoffs. However, when Tim has limited minutes (blowouts...) Tiagos minutes are still not inversely related.

Now you're moving away from a discussion of what has happened, and what is likely to happen to what you think should happen. You know, exactly what you warned Fuzzy away from.

ChumpDumper

04-07-2012, 03:28 PM

But Tiago needs minutes to correct the fitness issue perceived by many. Getting inconsisten minutes can cause issues and monitoring minutes doesn't always prevent injuries (see Tim & Manu over the past couple years)If he tries to play through his fatigue, it seems to me he would be more likely to be injured.

I said earlier I have no idea what could realistically be done about it this season.

TheSkeptic

04-07-2012, 03:30 PM

Because I've seen him play more minutes in condensed schedules (ACB tournament, even if it's not as long of a period) & be fine plus I've seen other players (take college kids for example and their minutes played then jumping into the nba) do ok as well. Sure maybe he's tired now but why are you taking this one game and trying to extrapolate that into something he always does? He's played more minutes in games this season and been fine and never asked for a sub.

All I'm saying is people, right or wrong, keep trying to invent reasons why he's not being played when it seems obvious to me when you just step back and look at what's actually been said and actually happened it paints a clearer picture even if many of us don't agree.

The goods tbh.

For the last part, I'd say it's a way of coping with the fact that a player who we think has the potential to do some damage for us is most likely going to be on the bench in favour of Bonner and Blair and now Diaw.

At this point it's not just us because fans of other teams are starting to take notice of the fact that Splitter is better than both Bonner and Blair.

Pop is an incredibly good coach who has helped bring a lot of success to the Spurs. I think people are just really reluctant to admit that he could be making an obvious mistake that will cost the Spurs a championship unless he gets lucky. So there's that.

Then there's people like Mel_13 who, I think, are more concerned about his injury history and conditioning. That's a fair point but I'm of the opinion that fooling around with his minutes will make him more likely to get hurt.

I'm inclined to agree with you that Pop just doesn't think he's that good. I'm confident that he would've found a way to give him more minutes otherwise.

The fact that he does a lot of defending and offensive work for the bench is a step in the right direction (much better than last season), but by using Splitter this way I just don't think Pop is making the most of his abilities.

He wouldn't do something like that unless he just didn't think Tiago was all that good of a player. Compared to Robinson and prime Tim Duncan I would agree with his "unskilled" comments but on this team with these players I think Pop is underestimating him.

DPG21920

04-07-2012, 03:30 PM

1. Splitter is proven. He's not going to get any better in a blowout. Everyone knows what Splitter can do. As Pop says, Splitter has been doing the same things for the last ten years. Someone like Diaw needs those minutes much more in order to learn the system.

Also don't really agree with this. Splitter really isn't proven. Based on Pop's comments, he doesn't see Tiago as the skilled player many of us do. So he has not proven himself to Pop as Pop still doesn't really know what he has in Tiago. Also, Pop has also said that he really doesn't know what he has in Tiago due to his injuries (which is totally bs IMO) & you yourself admitted you don't know Tiago's ceiling and what can be realistically expected from him so in that regard he is not proven.

Why would someone like Diaw or other bench guys need to prove themselves if in the playoffs depth is less important? At this point isn't getting your playoff rotation minutes the important thing? Why place importance on getting guys minutes that likely won't be playing much when it matters this deep into the season heading into the playoffs?

timvp

04-07-2012, 03:31 PM

Manu is more injury prone than Tiago and plays more minutes, does pop not think he is vital?

I'd say Splitter is more injury prone, especially if you adjust for age. When Manu gets hurt, it's almost always a mechanical type injury like a broken bone or a sprained ankle. Splitter, on the other hand, is more prone to get muscle pulls, muscle spasms, muscle strains and the like.

*knocks on wood* Splitter has avoided major injuries in his career but in his history, he has dealt with a ton of nagging injuries ... whether it be in Spain, with his NT or with the Spurs. Ginobili isn't really the nagging injury type. The closest I can remember is that oblique injury but even that was caused by a specific action, tbh.

Borosai

04-07-2012, 03:34 PM

With the team's limited size up front, I'm sure Pop wants a big out there as much as possible. Playing Splitter extended minutes would mean extended minutes of Diaw/Blair/Bonner (more complaints), or playing Duncan fewer minutes (not going to happen outside of a blowout).

Keeping him healthy is important as well.

Nathan89

04-07-2012, 03:35 PM

"Tiago is to injury prone to play more minutes." "Tiago can't physically handle more minutes." If this is true Pop should still prepare a Duncan/Tiago lineup. Play them together 5 mpg at least and sometimes more. If Pop plays Tiago with Duncan in the playoffs I will be both happy and pissed at the same time.

DPG21920

04-07-2012, 03:35 PM

Now you're moving away from a discussion of what has happened, and what is likely to happen to what you think should happen. You know, exactly what you warned Fuzzy away from.

How so. I'm stating simply fact:

Tiago didn't get many minutes last year in the regular season or playoffs.

Tiago started this season having his minutes appearing to be inversely related to Tim's except for recently when blowouts happen, Tiago doesn't absorb the majority of minutes Tim gives up. He's minutes stay consistent.

timvp

04-07-2012, 03:40 PM

Why would someone like Diaw or other bench guys need to prove themselves if in the playoffs depth is less important? At this point isn't getting your playoff rotation minutes the important thing? Why place importance on getting guys minutes that likely won't be playing much when it matters this deep into the season heading into the playoffs?

You're overestimating what can be accomplished in meaningless blowout minutes. Splitter isn't going to prove anything to Pop when the Spurs are up by 30 against a bad team. On the other hand, those minutes are valuable to players like Diaw and Mills because they are still getting adjusted to the system.

By your reasoning, Pop should just playing his regular rotation regardless of score ... which obviously doesn't make any sense.

Let's wait until these Lakers and Grizzlies games before we sound the Splitter panic alarm, tbh.

Manu'sMagicalLeftHand

04-07-2012, 03:41 PM

DPG21920

04-07-2012, 03:45 PM

You're overestimating what can be accomplished in meaningless blowout minutes. Splitter isn't going to prove anything to Pop when the Spurs are up by 30 against a bad team. On the other hand, those minutes are valuable to players like Diaw and Mills because they are still getting adjusted to the system.

By your reasoning, Pop should just playing his regular rotation regardless of score ... which obviously doesn't make any sense.

Let's wait until these Lakers and Grizzlies games before we sound the Splitter panic alarm, tbh.

No, I'm saying bottom line is if in close games Tiago isn't getting minutes and blowouts Tiago isn't getting minutes, when can you expect him to get minutes and/or improve his conditioning if that is a real problem?

Again, I don't why seeing what happens with 12 games to go until the playoffs would shed a lot more light (meaning reasonable expectations) when we have all of last year and this year as a sample?

ChumpDumper

04-07-2012, 03:47 PM

Also don't really agree with this. Splitter really isn't proven. Based on Pop's comments, he doesn't see Tiago as the skilled player many of us do. So he has not proven himself to Pop as Pop still doesn't really know what he has in Tiago. Also, Pop has also said that he really doesn't know what he has in Tiago due to his injuries (which is totally bs IMO) & you yourself admitted you don't know Tiago's ceiling and what can be realistically expected from him so in that regard he is not proven.I think this season's individual potential is fairly well known by now, given his effectiveness in the pick and roll, his relative ineffectiveness doing almost anything else and apparent fatigue issues. The main question is how he might play with Duncan.

ChumpDumper

04-07-2012, 03:48 PM

No, I'm saying bottom line is if in close games Tiago isn't getting minutes and blowouts Tiago isn't getting minutes, when can you expect him to get minutes and/or improve his conditioning if that is a real problem? Blowouts he pulls himself out of?

Good question.

DPG21920

04-07-2012, 03:51 PM

That was one game, Chump. Agreed that you don't know if Pop was going to give him more minutes than normal had he not asked to come out, but that is not the norm and we've seen Pop not play Tiago when things appeared to be ok (meaning Tiago not asking to come out) way more than we've seen Tiago asked to be pulled (one time).

heyheymymy

04-07-2012, 03:51 PM

Any chance Pop is giving Splitter minimal minutes to reduce the amount of tape from which other teams could develop a game plan on him? We joke a lot about CIA Pop, but maybe there is a little "secret weapon" strategy to this maneuver? Keep him a relative unknown this season, especially with the new team members creating a completely new dynamic to how you could use him, and then throw him out there in the playoffs to really stack the decks in our favor.

I had the same "hidden playoff rotations" theory last season, and it didn't materialize, but maybe after the Memphis series things have changed.

ChumpDumper

04-07-2012, 03:52 PM

TheSkeptic

04-07-2012, 03:53 PM

I attended the last FIBA Americas tournament in Mar del Plata, Argentina. I watched a lot of games and saw Tiago lvie in action 4 times.

One thing I noticed is that he isn't used in the pick 'n' roll that much when playing with his national team. Most of the time he was in the low post with his back to the basket and only on rare ocassions he left the paint to set a pick. Back when he played in Spain, he ran the p & r but not as much as with the Spurs.

Another factor could be his body not adapting to an NBA season yet. In Europe, when playing for club in the most sucessful and deep run season, players don't log more than 70 games (40 minutes per game max). Add to that his National Team play in the summer.

On the other hand, this season with the lockout most players didn't have a normal preaseason conditioning. So even if it is a shorter regular season, games are compressed in the schedule, and some players are natural athletes who are in top notch condition no matter what while others struggle if they didn't went through a good preseason regime.

I see. So maybe it's not the minutes he's playing so much as the style then.

I remember earlier this season that Sean was suggesting the Spurs run a few post-up plays to prevent Tiago from getting tired setting picks for everybody and running the pick and roll (You'd swear that guy is a member of the church tbh :lol).

That would explain the fatigue and the muscle strains then because that would mean he'd have been playing more total minutes than he ever did in Europe/with Brazil (Thanks Mel) and he would've been doing so while playing a significantly more taxing style (Thanks MMLH).

It's all making sense to me now.

DPG21920

04-07-2012, 03:53 PM

That may be the case, but it would be incredibly risky to all of the sudden thrust a player into way more minutes in the playoffs. Also, players just can go from having minutes regulated to playing 40+ a night which is another reason managing minutes can bite you in the playoffs when you need your big guns for longer periods (unless you plan to keep a longer rotation in the playoffs).

Mel_13

04-07-2012, 03:54 PM

Then there's people like Mel_13 who, I think, are more concerned about his injury history and conditioning.

To be quite clear, that is not my position.

I responded in this thread and others to the contention, broadly stated, that Tiago can play much more than 18-20 mpg because he has done so in the past. In fact, all the available evidence points to two irrefutable conclusions:

1. He has not played more minutes per game than he has this season over any period of time, or under any conditions, that even remotely resemble this condensed season.

2. He played more games and more minutes from opening night until the Clipper game where he suffered the calf injury, (and not just a little bit more, but nearly double the number of games and minutes) than he had ever played in a similar period of time in his entire career. Since this period of extended play has been followed by two of the nagging injuries that he has been susceptible to in his career, I find suggestions that even more minutes would have had happy results to be completely unsupported by the facts.

IMO, Pop pushed the envelope wrt Tiago's minutes while using him in a clearly defined role in which the player flourished and the team reaped the benefit of that fine play. If not for time lost to the nagging injuries, Tiago would have approached a career high for minutes played in a season before the playoffs even started. And that's in a 4 month season compared to a 7-8 month season.

Frankly, I don't understand how those simple facts are ignored...

Mel_13

04-07-2012, 03:57 PM

How so. I'm stating simply fact:

Tiago didn't get many minutes last year in the regular season or playoffs.

Tiago started this season having his minutes appearing to be inversely related to Tim's except for recently when blowouts happen, Tiago doesn't absorb the majority of minutes Tim gives up. He's minutes stay consistent.

Last year is irrelevant.

This year, Tiago has had a clearly defined role from opening night.

Cant_Be_Faded

04-07-2012, 03:58 PM

I'd say Splitter is more injury prone, especially if you adjust for age. When Manu gets hurt, it's almost always a mechanical type injury like a broken bone or a sprained ankle. Splitter, on the other hand, is more prone to get muscle pulls, muscle spasms, muscle strains and the like.

*knocks on wood* Splitter has avoided major injuries in his career but in his history, he has dealt with a ton of nagging injuries ... whether it be in Spain, with his NT or with the Spurs. Ginobili isn't really the nagging injury type. The closest I can remember is that oblique injury but even that was caused by a specific action, tbh.

Didn't manu reveal to the media he was dealing with nagging injuries after the.08 season, which is supposedly why he played like crap against the lakers.

DPG21920

04-07-2012, 03:59 PM

People are acting like Tiago has missed months due to injury, I don't get it. Plenty of people miss more games than Tiago without getting the injury prone label.

Paranoid Pop

04-07-2012, 04:00 PM

Seriously I rewatched the game and Diaw did good defensively, he was put on Kaman AND Landry (for some reason Pop plays him at center half the time), the two hardest covers basically and he more than held his own, he's also easily one of the best help defender.

And he also did that :

http://i.minus.com/ibydRqrZovMngY.gif

Not the first time he stops a fastbreak while being outnumbered btw.

Yes I'm CoD if you had any doubt left.

DPG21920

04-07-2012, 04:01 PM

Last year is irrelevant.

This year, Tiago has a clearly defined role from opening night.

I don't see how it's irrelevant when it pertains to comments and perceptions from the actual coach who dictates his minutes.

His role seems to be clearly defined except for when we though his minutes were inversely related to Tim's and that didn't hold true in several games (meaning Tim sat out for whatever reason and Tiago's minutes remained steady or decreased).

ChumpDumper

04-07-2012, 04:03 PM

People are acting like Tiago has missed months due to injury, I don't get it. Plenty of people miss more games than Tiago without getting the injury prone label.Everyone mentioning injuries says they are of the nagging variety. This season isn't much different from the others. He certainly seems prone to nagging injuries.

Mel_13

04-07-2012, 04:04 PM

People are acting like Tiago has missed months due to injury, I don't get it. Plenty of people miss more games than Tiago without getting the injury prone label.

Like you said, it's just stating fact. He's been susceptible to these small, nagging injuries his entire career. In a condensed season, he misses more games than in a normal season. When he comes back from missed games, it takes a couple of games to get back to his previous level of conditioning. All this affects the total number of minutes he plays.

Those are just facts.

ChumpDumper

04-07-2012, 04:05 PM

I don't see how it's irrelevant when it pertains to comments and perceptions from the actual coach who dictates his minutes.

His role seems to be clearly defined except for when we though his minutes were inversely related to Tim's and that didn't hold true in several games (meaning Tim sat out for whatever reason and Tiago's minutes remained steady or decreased).That could lead one to believe it's even more clearly defined than those of others on the team.

DPG21920

04-07-2012, 04:06 PM

Sure, but they don't necessarily cause him to miss much time so what's the big deal? I'd be more concerned about guys who get whatever type of injury you want to classify (i.e. "nagging" vs "critical") that actually miss several games all the time like Manu. Yet, he continues to play despite conditioning concerns and injury concerns.

Again, I just believe boiled down Pop is not a big fan of what Tiago can do. Do I agree? No, but when approached from that angle I understand and I am not searching for some crazy explanation as to why a top 5 player on the team by all accounts doesn't have more minutes over players that are clearly not as impactful by any metric.

Mel_13

04-07-2012, 04:08 PM

I don't see how it's irrelevant when it pertains to comments and perceptions from the actual coach who dictates his minutes.

His role seems to be clearly defined except for when we though his minutes were inversely related to Tim's and that didn't hold true in several games (meaning Tim sat out for whatever reason and Tiago's minutes remained steady or decreased).

You're making way too much out of a couple of comments made last season, at least one of which may have actual been a compliment.

And yes, how he was utilized last season is completely irrelevant when you have a much larger and more recent sample from which to draw conclusions.

DPG21920

04-07-2012, 04:09 PM

Like you said, it's just stating fact. He's been susceptible to these small, nagging injuries his entire career. In a condensed season, he misses more games than in a normal season. When he comes back from missed games, it takes a couple of games to get back to his previous level of conditioning. All this affects the total number of minutes he plays.

Those are just facts.

Facts are that this year Tiago didn't miss a game until 31 games into the season (where he only missed a span of 3 games) and he wasn't consistently getting minutes over less productive players.

The nagging injuries have been minor and not a legit concern based on games missed and before the nagging injury excuse became available this year, his minutes were still being debated based on his production.

Mel_13

04-07-2012, 04:10 PM

Again, I just believe boiled down Pop is not a big fan of what Tiago can do.

I know you believe this to be true, but there are plenty of sane people here who believe the opposite.

TheSkeptic

04-07-2012, 04:11 PM

To be quite clear, that is not my position.

I responded in this thread and others to the contention, broadly stated, that Tiago can play much more than 18-20 mpg because he has done so in the past. In fact, all the available evidence points to two irrefutable conclusions:

1. He has not played more minutes per game than he has this season over any period of time, or under any conditions, that even remotely resemble this condensed season.

2. He played more games and more minutes from opening night until the Clipper game where he suffered the calf injury, (and not just a little bit more, but nearly double the number of games and minutes) than he had ever played in a similar period of time in his entire career. Since this period of extended play has been followed by two of the nagging injuries that he has been susceptible to in his career, I find suggestions that even more minutes would have had happy results to be completely unsupported by the facts.

IMO, Pop pushed the envelope wrt Tiago's minutes while using him in a clearly defined role in which the player flourished and the team reaped the benefit of that fine play. If not for time lost to the nagging injuries, Tiago would have approached a career high for minutes played in a season before the playoffs even started. And that's in a 4 month season compared to a 7-8 month season.

Frankly, I don't understand how those simple facts are ignored...

Ah. Sorry then I read you wrong (my mistake).

1. I didn't like the minute distribution. Once I heard that Tiago had a history with the muscle injuries, I immediately felt like what he needed was to play but not in the 2 shifts/game way that he has been. Shorter shifts would keep him at his most productive and are easier to build on imo.

2. He doesn't come down with extremely serious strains though. That to me suggests that he can be preserved in other ways (Though I know you'll disagree) :D and MMLH's info indicates that he's also playing in a style that's significantly more demanding than what he did before.

I just don't agree that he had a defined role. The team flourished and Tiago flourished because he's a really good player. But even back then his minutes were being jerked around and it wasn't really until his team realized that giving him the ball made things easier for everyone that they started to do it. Pop still I don't think has fully come around.

DPG21920

04-07-2012, 04:12 PM

You're making way too much out of a couple of comments made last season, at least one of which may have actual been a compliment.

And yes, how he was utilized last season is completely irrelevant when you have a much larger and more recent sample from which to draw conclusions.

Last year he played 63 games including playoffs, which is a bigger sample size. It was just last year, it's not like I'm comparing stats from when he was not with the Spurs.

DPG21920

04-07-2012, 04:13 PM

I know you believe this to be true, but there are plenty of sane people here who believe the opposite.

So they believe it's a nagging injury thing even though Tiago doesn't miss hardly any time due to said injuries? What's does it matter if he gets nagging injuries if they don't cause him to miss significant time this year?

Leetonidas

04-07-2012, 04:16 PM

DPG trolling :lol

Mel_13

04-07-2012, 04:16 PM

Facts are that this year Tiago didn't miss a game until 31 games into the season (where he only missed a span of 3 games) and he wasn't consistently getting minutes over less productive players.

The nagging injuries have been minor and not a legit concern based on games missed and before the nagging injury excuse became available this year, his minutes were still being debated based on his production.

This is the crux of the issue.

Tiago has had a clearly defined role and has received minutes consistent with role in every game that he was healthy this season up until last night's game.

You're comparing his minutes to other players in other roles.

Tiago has been sharing 48 minutes with TD and garbage time. The other 48 minutes have been shared, until the Diaw signing, between Blair, Bonner, small ball and garbage time.

ChumpDumper

04-07-2012, 04:18 PM

So they believe it's a nagging injury thing even though Tiago doesn't miss hardly any time due to said injuries? What's does it matter if he gets nagging injuries if they don't cause him to miss significant time this year?Really?

You're serious?

Mel_13

04-07-2012, 04:20 PM

Last year he played 63 games including playoffs, which is a bigger sample size. It was just last year, it's not like I'm comparing stats from when he was not with the Spurs.

If you don't see a huge difference between how he was used last year and how he has been used this season, then we're really not talking about the same subject matter.

Mel_13

04-07-2012, 04:21 PM

DPG21920

04-07-2012, 04:23 PM

This is the crux of the issue.

Tiago has had a clearly defined role and has received minutes consistent with role in every game that he was healthy this season up until last night's game.

You're comparing his minutes to other players in other roles.

Tiago has been sharing 48 minutes with TD and garbage time. The other 48 minutes have been shared, until the Diaw signing, between Blair, Bonner, small ball and garbage time.

CLE game as well....So now it's not about the injuries since he's healthy, it's about Pop going with other guys and different line ups which is a belief issue, not an injury concern issue.

Either way, people always want to go back and forth (myself included) and really analyze what's going on in all these scenarios (from spending money, to rotations, to strategy). It's fun and a big reason why we all come here. But sometimes, as in the case of re-signing RJ/Bonner & Tiago's minutes, you just have to boil it down when it doesn't make sense.

It was bad business to tie up 50M in players like RJ/Matt & it's bad business to not find a way to play your best players (especially the top 5 on the team).

Will that ultimately derail their shot a title? Not sure, they very well may win it all despite that (just like, even though long odds, they might have won it all with RJ) it doesn't make that decision in a bubble correct.

DPG21920

04-07-2012, 04:24 PM

Really?

You're serious?

Yes. I really don't see an issue with "injuries" if they don't cause a guy to miss significant time. Are Manu's injuries more of a concern to you or Tiago's?

DPG21920

04-07-2012, 04:26 PM

:lol

That's a complete non-sequitur.

I was talking about your beliefs regarding Pop's estimation of Tiago's talents.

You said plenty of people on here disagree as to why Pop doesn't play Tiago more when I think it's a talent evaluation. What would they think it is then?

Mel_13

04-07-2012, 04:31 PM

Ah. Sorry then I read you wrong (my mistake).

1. I didn't like the minute distribution. Once I heard that Tiago had a history with the muscle injuries, I immediately felt like what he needed was to play but not in the 2 shifts/game way that he has been. Shorter shifts would keep him at his most productive and are easier to build on imo.

2. He doesn't come down with extremely serious strains though. That to me suggests that he can be preserved in other ways (Though I know you'll disagree) :D and MMLH's info indicates that he's also playing in a style that's significantly more demanding than what he did before.

I wouldn't necessarily disagree. I just don't see how that works in his role as TD's backup.

I just don't agree that he had a defined role. The team flourished and Tiago flourished because he's a really good player. But even back then his minutes were being jerked around and it wasn't really until his team realized that giving him the ball made things easier for everyone that they started to do it. Pop still I don't think has fully come around.

We're going to completely disagree on that. I believe that there was an interview posted here (from Brazil, if I remember correctly) in which Tiago expressed satisfaction with his role on this year's team. I don't see how anyone comes to the conclusion that he's been jerked around this season. He knows exactly what is expected from him every game and he's played every game that he's been healthy.

Now last year, he was jerked around. He didn't know if he would play at all, when he would go in if he did play, or what might be expected from him in a given game. This year, he knows that TD will come out in the 1st quarter and the 3rd quarter, and that he will be the center for the rest of those two quarters and several minutes of the 2nd and 4th quarters. I'm not sure how much more clearly defined his role could possibly be.

DPG21920

04-07-2012, 04:37 PM

So Mel, you are saying simply that his role is defined, and that whether or not it's a good role is the debate.

Mel_13

04-07-2012, 04:37 PM

CLE game as well....So now it's not about the injuries since he's healthy, it's about Pop going with other guys and different line ups which is a belief issue, not an injury concern issue.

Either way, people always want to go back and forth (myself included) and really analyze what's going on in all these scenarios (from spending money, to rotations, to strategy). It's fun and a big reason why we all come here. But sometimes, as in the case of re-signing RJ/Bonner & Tiago's minutes, you just have to boil it down when it doesn't make sense.

It was bad business to tie up 50M in players like RJ/Matt & it's bad business to not find a way to play your best players (especially the top 5 on the team).

Will that ultimately derail their shot a title? Not sure, they very well may win it all despite that (just like, even though long odds, they might have won it all with RJ) it doesn't make that decision in a bubble correct.

Not true about the Cleveland game. I checked the play-by-play to be certain.

And the RJ stuff has nothing to do with this discussion of this issue. At least, any discussion of this issue that the two of us will ever have.

Mel_13

04-07-2012, 04:39 PM

You said plenty of people on here disagree as to why Pop doesn't play Tiago more when I think it's a talent evaluation. What would they think it is then?

His role as TD's backup.

TheSkeptic

04-07-2012, 04:40 PM

I know I definitely haven't been a part of the solution, but there's something relaxing about arguing over Tiago's minutes. It almost wouldn't feel like a proper wrap-up without it. :lol

I know you believe this to be true, but there are plenty of sane people here who believe the opposite.

See, I can believe that Pop was a fan of Tiago in the way he might've liked Oberto. "Blue collar" could be taken as a compliment since this coach is a fan of hard workers and "unskilled" could very well be his own personal assessment. This coupled with minute distribution honestly has me thinking that when he looks at Tiago he sees an upgraded Oberto.

I don't think this is a fair assessment and while the team could make the Finals since the West is wide open like that I have a hard time picturing the Spurs beating a team like Chicago or Miami with this set-up. Even with Tiago it might not be possible but I'd rather go down playing our best players.

Losing with this current rotation would be a really tough pill to swallow tbh.

DPG21920

04-07-2012, 04:43 PM

:lol Mel, I can never tell how serious you really take this stuff - Is it that you really view everything as a serious convo or just at times?

The CLE game, Tiago played 17 minutes and Tim played 23. Unless I'm missing something that doesn't add up to 48.

The point about RJ wasn't so much about the individual discussion as it was about the general things that go on here that apply to several of the discussions that take place. In this case, despite all the back and forth it really boils down to this: Is Tiago a top 5 player on the team and if he is, are the minutes (despite arguing the merits of a defined role) good for a top 5 player?

The RJ comment was to draw a parallel - people were arguing the merits of the "why" he got paid when in reality all that mattered was it was a bad business move given the known variables. This Tiago situation is similar in that regard depending on your belief in the question above.

DPG21920

04-07-2012, 04:44 PM

His role as TD's backup.

That's fine. Is that the proper role and then why when Tim plays 23 minutes (like against CLE) does Tiago get 17 minutes?

Mel_13

04-07-2012, 04:45 PM

So Mel, you are saying simply that his role is defined, and that whether or not it's a good role is the debate.

Clearly, how Tiago ought to be utilized is a discussion that many people here have great interest in debating. I'm really not one of them.

I responded to your post on a point of fact, not opinion.

I'm perfectly fine with what anyone thinks ought to happen. That's their opinion and they are entitled to it. I joined in because you were justifying your opinion by reference to some supposed facts which I don't believe to exist.

TheSkeptic

04-07-2012, 04:49 PM

I wouldn't necessarily disagree. I just don't see how that works in his role as TD's backup.

I'm no guru but I would assume it'd be possible to put together a rotation that would allow him to be TD's backup and play minutes more befitting of a top 5 player on the team.

A young (enough) former MVP should not be behind situational off the bench bigs and even then he should be playing more than them.

We're going to completely disagree on that. I believe that there was an interview posted here (from Brazil, if I remember correctly) in which Tiago expressed satisfaction with his role on this year's team. I don't see how anyone comes to the conclusion that he's been jerked around this season. He knows exactly what is expected from him every game and he's played every game that he's been healthy.

Now last year, he was jerked around. He didn't know if he would play at all, when he would go in if he did play, or what might be expected from him in a given game. This year, he knows that TD will come out in the 1st quarter and the 3rd quarter, and that he will be the center for the rest of those two quarters and several minutes of the 2nd and 4th quarters. I'm not sure how much more clearly defined his role could possibly be.

After not playing for most of last season, I can see why he'd be happy about this year's situation...

Yeah we will disagree but for the sake of conversation I'll give you the set role.

Bottom line I still don't think it's proper utilization of one of the team's best players. If Bonner can get a job that fits his strengths to perfection (although his playoff performances have been terribly disappointing), then a significantly better player in Tiago should be afforded the same opportunities.

Mel_13

04-07-2012, 04:53 PM

I know I definitely haven't been a part of the solution, but there's something relaxing about arguing over Tiago's minutes. It almost wouldn't feel like a proper wrap-up without it. :lol

See, I can believe that Pop was a fan of Tiago in the way he might've liked Oberto. "Blue collar" could be taken as a compliment since this coach is a fan of hard workers and "unskilled" could very well be his own personal assessment. This coupled with minute distribution honestly has me thinking that when he looks at Tiago he sees an upgraded Oberto.

I don't think this is a fair assessment and while the team could make the Finals since the West is wide open like that I have a hard time picturing the Spurs beating a team like Chicago or Miami with this set-up. Even with Tiago it might not be possible but I'd rather go down playing our best players.

Losing with this current rotation would be a really tough pill to swallow tbh.

Pop did play Oberto next to TD in 2007. So, it would seem that regarding Tiago as an upgraded Oberto, even if true and even if not quite fair to Tiago, is not the critical obstacle to a TD/Tiago starting frontline.

If your next question would be, then what is? My best guess, and it's only a guess, is that they were going to have get through a compressed 66 game schedule with just 4 bigs. They concluded that the deployment of those 4 players that we have seen for most of this season was the best possible deployment. Clearly there are many here who would disagree with that conclusion, but it fits the facts of the situation that we have observed.

DPG21920

04-07-2012, 04:59 PM

So by that logic Mel, you anticipate Tiago's minutes increasing in the playoffs over less productive players?

Mel_13

04-07-2012, 04:59 PM

:lol Mel, I can never tell how serious you really take this stuff - Is it that you really view everything as a serious convo or just at times?

The CLE game, Tiago played 17 minutes and Tim played 23. Unless I'm missing something that doesn't add up to 48.

I've been completely serious in this thread. I try to make it very obvious when I'm not.

The numbers don't add up to 48 because it was a 35 point blowout. I thought that had already been covered. If the game had been competitive to the end, Tim would have played 31 minutes and the minutes would have added up.

In the Cleveland game, and in every game before it, Tiago subbed in for Tim in the 1st and 3rd quarters.

In the Hornet game, Diaw subbed in for Tim in the 1st quarter.

T Park

04-07-2012, 05:01 PM

Quiveling over 8 mins and thinking that proves Pop hates Splitter?

Good god..

DPG21920

04-07-2012, 05:03 PM

So then it goes back to what I said: We don't need to see the last 12 games - If Tiago's minutes and role are the same regardless of the situation (close game, blowout...), we know what to expect and that is Tiago not getting very many minutes despite being a top 5 player on the team due to his role.

That's the debate - why is that his role? Is it injuries or Pop not thinking Tiago is all that good?

FuzzyLumpkins

04-07-2012, 05:04 PM

Just saying there might be other variables is a cop out in the context of discussion on a message board. When all else fails look at what is actually happening vs what you think should happen. You then arrive at your logical answer given the known variables.

Or you can conclude that it just doesn't add up and keep an open mind rather then trying the fit the square peg into the round hole routine.

I make no comments about 'should happen' whereas you take your little box of knowledge and limit the discussion to that even if it doesn't make sesne. Further you conclude that Pop is making a mistake because you conclude he is not doing what he 'should.'

Introspection is important.

I do not completely discount that notion but as i stated it just smacks of hubris to me.

All I know is that Pop does not like playing either Splitter or Duncan at the 4. i just wish SA media would try harder to ask him why that is so we do not have to guess.

DPG21920

04-07-2012, 05:04 PM

Quiveling over 8 mins and thinking that proves Pop hates Splitter?

Good god..

Who said Pop hates Splitter? Saying Pop is not as high on Splitter's abilities as some of us are and that's why he doesn't play more minutes is not saying Pop hates Splitter.

Mel_13

04-07-2012, 05:05 PM

I'm no guru but I would assume it'd be possible to put together a rotation that would allow him to be TD's backup and play minutes more befitting of a top 5 player on the team.

A young (enough) former MVP should not be behind situational off the bench bigs and even then he should be playing more than them.

After not playing for most of last season, I can see why he'd be happy about this year's situation...

Yeah we will disagree but for the sake of conversation I'll give you the set role.

Bottom line I still don't think it's proper utilization of one of the team's best players. If Bonner can get a job that fits his strengths to perfection (although his playoff performances have been terribly disappointing), then a significantly better player in Tiago should be afforded the same opportunities.

As I answered to DPG, I recognize that there are lots of folks here who believe that Tiago's role should be expanded. I'm trying my best to stay out of that discussion. That goes to opinion and I'm not going to try talk someone out of their opinion. I joined in here to get the facts straight as to Tiago's history. I've also continued to assert my belief that Tiago has a well defined role on this year's team, while staying out of the debate as to whether or not that role is the optimal one.

DPG21920

04-07-2012, 05:06 PM

Or you can conclude that it just doesn't add up and keep an open mind rather then trying the fit the square peg into the round hole routine.

I make no comments about 'should happen' whereas you take your little box of knowledge and limit the discussion to that even if it doesn't make sesne. Further you conclude that Pop is making a mistake because you conclude he is not doing what he 'should.'

Introspection is important.

I do not completely discount that notion but as i stated it just smacks of hubris to me.

All I know is that Pop does not like playing either Splitter or Duncan at the 4. i just wish SA media would try harder to ask him why that is so we do not have to guess.

I agree to an extent, but when you have this sample size, coaches public comments and the ability to look at production, advanced metrics and match ups, you also have to ask at some point how many other variables are there? In this case after seeing all the arguments presented I am of the opinion that there really isn't very many variables left that haven't been on the table.

Mel_13

04-07-2012, 05:07 PM

DPG21920

04-07-2012, 05:08 PM

Yes, Mel. You are correct. I'm posing general questions within you and I's direct conversations.

FuzzyLumpkins

04-07-2012, 05:09 PM

I agree to an extent, but when you have this sample size, coaches public comments and the ability to look at production, advanced metrics and match ups, you also have to ask at some point how many other variables are there? In this case after seeing all the arguments presented I am of the opinion that there really isn't very many variables left that haven't been on the table.

LJ has shown some stats that show that offensive production takes a significant hit when Duncan and Splitter are paired. i think a better question should be what exactly are the variable's valued at.

TheSkeptic

04-07-2012, 05:15 PM

LJ has shown some stats that show that offensive production takes a significant hit when Duncan and Splitter are paired. i think a better question should be what exactly are the variable's valued at.

He's also shown some stats that showed they were not too far off of the Blair/Duncan pairing offensively hasn't he?

They're not perfect fits but given the potential there it's an avenue worth exploring. And in any case, playing them around 10 minutes together would be adequate imo.

therealtruth

04-07-2012, 05:19 PM

What's weirder about Pop refusal to play Splitter alongside Duncan is that he wasn't at against him last summer.

Last may, he said:
http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/article/Splitter-cast-as-Duncan-sidekick-1379352.php

It might be senility. Pop's said alot of crazy things as well as forgetting stuff he said before. He called Bogans the centerpiece. He called Splitter the lynch-pin. He said they were going to get back to playing defense.

Pop did play Oberto next to TD in 2007. So, it would seem that regarding Tiago as an upgraded Oberto, even if true and even if not quite fair to Tiago, is not the critical obstacle to a TD/Tiago starting frontline.

Pop's no longer the defense first coach he was in '08.

ChumpDumper

04-07-2012, 05:22 PM

Obstructed_View

04-07-2012, 05:25 PM

People are acting like Tiago has missed months due to injury, I don't get it. Plenty of people miss more games than Tiago without getting the injury prone label.

The difference is that those people put that label on him before he ever got injured, so any time anything happens to him they can say, "see?" Just like it was somehow Ian Mahinmi's fault that the Spurs fucked up with his ankle.

ChumpDumper

04-07-2012, 05:27 PM

The difference is that those people put that label on him before he ever got injured, so any time anything happens to him they can say, "see?" Just like it was somehow Ian Mahinmi's fault that the Spurs fucked up with his ankle.Splitter had the history of injuries long before he became a Spur.

If you can blame Splitter's missed games on the medical staff, please provide proof. Otherwise is a false comparison.

Mel_13

04-07-2012, 05:31 PM

The difference is that those people put that label on him before he ever got injured, so any time anything happens to him they can say, "see?" Just like it was somehow Ian Mahinmi's fault that the Spurs fucked up with his ankle.

That's just not true.

Tiago had a history of these small, nagging injuries during his career in Europe. He had two separate injuries that cost him games last season and another two separate injuries that have cost him games this season. I don't know or care if that merits a label, but it is a fact that he has missed games due to small, nagging injuries on four separate occasions since signing with Spurs.

FuzzyLumpkins

04-07-2012, 05:39 PM

He's also shown some stats that showed they were not too far off of the Blair/Duncan pairing offensively hasn't he?

They're not perfect fits but given the potential there it's an avenue worth exploring. And in any case, playing them around 10 minutes together would be adequate imo.

Perhaps but at that point it becomes much more nuanced than a certainty.

And do not get me wrong. Splitter is perhaps my favorite player on the team now and i too would like to see him eat some of Blair's minutes but I just refuse to take the leap that Pop is dumb that I see so many others take. Pop being senile has now entered the discussion.

Duncan cannot guard the perimeter anymore. i wish he would let Splitter try to chase the Brian Andersons of the world or try his hand at the high post. I saw the last time he paired the two, Splitter came over from the weakside to defend the rim when Duncan lost contain on a pick and roll. i see the same shit but I suspect the coaches do too because its pretty blatant,

More than anything I wish our media would do a better job determining what the coaches are actually thinking so we do not have to guess.

TheSkeptic

04-07-2012, 05:41 PM

That's just not true.

Tiago had a history of these small, nagging injuries during his career in Europe. He had two separate injuries that cost him games last season and another two separate injuries that have cost him games this season. I don't know or care if that merits a label, but it is a fact that he has missed games due to small, nagging injuries on four separate occasions since signing with Spurs.

I get what you're saying but there were actually quite a few posters (you weren't one of them) that *did* label him as injury prone before he ever got hurt.

Then 48minutesofhell put out that article and people ran with it after that to the point where I think it's being viewed disproportionately by some.

Injury prone to me is Bogut, Bynum before he got it together, et. al.

Not a guy like Tiago who will miss some time with muscle strains here and there. "Prone to nagging injuries" would, imo, be a more accurate description of the situation and at that I think some of those could probably be prevented somewhat with a few slight changes.

Especially since there's a bit of a double standard there with respect to the correlation between Manu's injuries/minutes.

Mel_13

04-07-2012, 05:45 PM

I get what you're saying but there were actually quite a few posters (you weren't one of them) that *did* label him as injury prone before he ever got hurt.

Then 48minutesofhell put out that article and people ran with it after that to the point where I think it's being viewed disproportionately by some.

Fair enough, but is anyone seriously making the case that some labels on the internet are having any impact whatsoever on how Pop uses Tiago?

ChumpDumper

04-07-2012, 05:46 PM

Would it help the thread along if we used the term "nagging injury prone" from now on?

Getting kind of bogged down on tangents.

TheSkeptic

04-07-2012, 05:49 PM

Perhaps but at that point it becomes much more nuanced than a certainty.

And do not get me wrong. Splitter is perhaps my favorite player on the team now and i too would like to see him eat some of Blair's minutes but I just refuse to take the leap that Pop is dumb that I see so many others take. Pop being senile has now entered the discussion.

Duncan cannot guard the perimeter anymore. i wish he would let Splitter try to chase the Brian Andersons of the world or try his hand at the high post. I saw the last time he paired the two, Splitter came over from the weakside to defend the rim when Duncan lost contain on a pick and roll. i see the same shit but I suspect the coaches do too because its pretty blatant,

More than anything I wish our media would do a better job determining what the coaches are actually thinking so we do not have to guess.

I agree with most of this.

Defensively it's been looking decent since the Pistons game I think. The high-low pass against (Minnesota was it?) is what has convinced me this pairing could work offensively as well. Well, at least long enough that the team could maximize the two of them.

Dumb isn't the word for it because outside of this situation Pop has done a great job. I'd say that it's more of a blind spot than anything else. He's like a Byronic hero. :lol

Splitter has some match-ups I thought he struggled with (Kevin Love) but he's also done some good work against perimeter-oriented bigs in the past (Aldridge). SJax/Leonard is another option for some of these players as well.

Journalism in general is going downhill these days, but what's wrong in particular with the San Antonio media?

TheSkeptic

04-07-2012, 05:54 PM

Fair enough, but is anyone seriously making the case that some labels on the internet are having any impact whatsoever on how Pop uses Tiago?

I think the injury-prone label is being used as an explanation/crutch more than anything else for some people.

Given the way Pop has handled injured players in the past and currently, however, I don't believe that the injuries are the issue here.

ChumpDumper

04-07-2012, 06:00 PM

ChumpDumper

04-07-2012, 06:02 PM

I think the injury-prone label is being used as an explanation/crutch more than anything else for some people.It simply exists as fact. I was more concerned about the fatigue when he's healthy.

FuzzyLumpkins

04-07-2012, 06:06 PM

I agree with most of this.

Defensively it's been looking decent since the Pistons game I think. The high-low pass against (Minnesota was it?) is what has convinced me this pairing could work offensively as well. Well, at least long enough that the team could maximize the two of them.

Dumb isn't the word for it because outside of this situation Pop has done a great job. I'd say that it's more of a blind spot than anything else. He's like a Byronic hero. :lol

Splitter has some match-ups I thought he struggled with (Kevin Love) but he's also done some good work against perimeter-oriented bigs in the past (Aldridge). SJax/Leonard is another option for some of these players as well.

Journalism in general is going downhill these days, but what's wrong in particular with the San Antonio media?

Typically you see a couple of media members that have been able to develop a rapport with their teams front office like Archer in Dallas or Edes in Boston. San Antonio's media has not produced a single guy like that.

We get to guess on everything.

Mel_13

04-07-2012, 06:19 PM

but what's wrong in particular with the San Antonio media?

I've lived in major media markets and the situation with sports reporting here in San Antonio is completely different. In major markets you are likely to have multiple newspapers, television stations, and news and sports radio stations. You're also likely to have several personalities, whether print or on air, that have national followings and sources within the franchises of very long standing. You also have multiple sports franchises, so the teams have to be sure to keep good relations with the local press.

In a town like San Antonio, you have one daily newspaper and a few television stations. There are two sports radio stations, but there's not much local programming. The Spurs are the only game in town and Pop has become a giant figure here because of the Spurs' success. (I know someone who lives in Salt Lake City and it was the same with Sloan).

Pop has so much more power than any member of the local press that it would be career suicide for any one of them to challenge him. He just won't answer questions that he doesn't want to, and there's no demand from the community at large to put the screws to Pop. At Bowen's jersey retirement, Pop got a huge ovation when he was introduced. The general community and the ticket buying public are very happy with Pop.

The only people who really want to get real answers from Pop are people like us, and we account for a very, very small minority of the Spurs fanbase. So we only get what the Spurs want us to get.

TheSkeptic

04-07-2012, 06:25 PM

Typically you see a couple of media members that have been able to develop a rapport with their teams front office like Archer in Dallas or Edes in Boston. San Antonio's media has not produced a single guy like that.

We get to guess on everything.

I thought Griffin and McDonald were pretty close to the action judging by a few of their game logs.

Do they self-censor or something?

I've lived in major media markets and the situation with sports reporting here in San Antonio is completely different. In major markets you are likely to have multiple newspapers, television stations, and news and sports radio stations. You're also likely to have several personalities, whether print or on air, that have national followings and sources within the franchises of very long standing. You also have multiple sports franchises, so the teams have to be sure to keep good relations with the local press.

In a town like San Antonio, you have one daily newspaper and a few television stations. There are two sports radio stations, but there's not much local programming. The Spurs are the only game in town and Pop has become a giant figure here because of the Spurs' success. (I know someone who lives in Salt Lake City and it was the same with Sloan).

Pop has so much more power than any member of the local press that it would be career suicide for any one of them to challenge him. He just won't answer questions that he doesn't want to, and there's no demand from the community at large to put the screws to Pop. At Bowen's jersey retirement, Pop got a huge ovation when he was introduced. The general community and the ticket buying public are very happy with Pop.

The only people who really want to get real answers from Pop are people like us, and we account for a very, very small minority of the Spurs fanbase. So we only get what the Spurs want us to get.

Seriously? How intense. Those are the type of characters you write about in fiction. How does that work with out of town press members?
Does he just not talk to them either?

In any case, what happens to people who do ask questions? After all, it's not like anybody's asking him to retire...

Mel_13

04-07-2012, 06:35 PM

I thought Griffin and McDonald were pretty close to the action judging by a few of their game logs.

Do they self-censor or something?

Seriously? How intense. Those are the type of characters you write about in fiction. How does that work with out of town press members?
Does he just not talk to them either?

In any case, what happens to people who do ask questions? After all, it's not like anybody's asking him to retire...

McDonald is the beat writer for the Express-New, so he has a courtside seat on Press Row for all home games. That's not the same as access. Sean has access, but he isn't dishing any dirt on Pop or the team.

Have you seen Pop answer questions from the press during past playoff runs? He can be charming and amusing in his own way, but he doesn't suffer fools gladly. If someone asks about coaching decisions and he doesn't feel like giving a thoughtful answer, he'll just say something vanilla like "we thought that gave us the best chance to win the game".

He's just untouchable at this point. The owner has his back and he'll coach the team until he's ready to retire to his vineyard.

therealtruth

04-07-2012, 06:58 PM

I'm no guru but I would assume it'd be possible to put together a rotation that would allow him to be TD's backup and play minutes more befitting of a top 5 player on the team.

The easiest way to get him more minutes would be to start him. As an added benefit the team would stop trading baskets for the first few minutes. Trading baskets is a dangerous game since it's get's the other team in rhythm. If you can prevent a team from getting any rhythm early it can make it a long game for them.

Also starting him and giving him shorter stints might prevent those nagging injuries since it's obvious the other approach doesn't make a difference.

TD 21

04-07-2012, 07:17 PM

Tony Parker B+
Production-wise, Tony Parker was really good. He was making plays consistently and he defended well. However, I’m a little worried about Parker because he wasn't moving well in the second half against the Celtics and didn't move very well tonight. I’m not sure if he’s tired, hurt or a combination of both. While he has played well lately, it’d be nice to see a handful of vintage performances out of Parker before the end of the regular season. To go far in the playoffs, the Spurs need Parker playing like an MVP candidate and not merely an All-Star.

It would be, but I wouldn't be concerned at this point. I didn't see a single status report on him between the Celtics and Hornets games and obviously he played last night, despite the fact that it more than likely would have been a blowout whether he played or not. So health wise, I think he's fine. Probably not 100%, but then who is at this point in the season?

As far as vintage performances, because they're not needed at the moment, he's taken his foot off the gas. Which makes sense. No point in running himself into the ground when he doesn't have to for them to win. Ginobili's done the same thing virtually the entire season. When they really need it, especially in the playoffs, he'll have the pedal to the metal.

TheSkeptic

04-07-2012, 07:19 PM

I really think the main issue is that Splitter is effective, devastatingly effective, at one play and practically an offensive nonfactor otherwise. He started off the year having traditional back to the basket plays run for him. The result was awkward dribbling and special ed flip shots. Splitter is practically unstoppable in the pick and roll against second units, but apparently the price is rather quick fatigue.

The question seems to be whether it is worth keeping Tiago from what he far and away does best in an attempt to preserve his wind so he can play a few minutes alongside Tim. And, if he wasn't used on offense so he could defend Gasol or Randolph, how much longer would his motor last? Would it all be worth it?

Sorry Chump I'm a little late with this one.

I would've agreed with this initially except I think Splitter's post-up game has improved dramatically from just the start of the season to today.

If having his back to the basket is what he's used to on the International scene that would also explain the fatigue and the injuries because that would indicate that he's playing significantly more than he did in Europe in a significantly more taxing style. Assuming MMLH is correct, then he's actually not nearly as injury prone as he seems at first glance.

Now that he's somewhat more used to playing against NBA players it looks like his game from elsewhere is starting to translate. While I definitely wouldn't expect him to have a post-up game a la Tim Duncan I think it'd be good if he was at least comfortable with it heading into the playoffs. (not going to happen this year I know)

All things considered, his percentages from the post didn't look too bad either so that leads me to believe that it's a matter of reps with him.

McDonald is the beat writer for the Express-New, so he has a courtside seat on Press Row for all home games. That's not the same as access. Sean has access, but he isn't dishing any dirt on Pop or the team.

Have you seen Pop answer questions from the press during past playoff runs? He can be charming and amusing in his own way, but he doesn't suffer fools gladly. If someone asks about coaching decisions and he doesn't feel like giving a thoughtful answer, he'll just say something vanilla like "we thought that gave us the best chance to win the game".

He's just untouchable at this point. The owner has his back and he'll coach the team until he's ready to retire to his vineyard.

...This is selfish, but I really hope Sean writes a book someday.

True. It seemed like he was becoming less crusty more recently, however.

So short of an expose or crime we have no choice but to speculate it seems. :lol

The easiest way to get him more minutes would be to start him. As an added benefit the team would stop trading baskets for the first few minutes. Trading baskets is a dangerous game since it's get's the other team in rhythm. If you can prevent a team from getting any rhythm early it can make it a long game for them.

Also starting him and giving him shorter stints might prevent those nagging injuries since it's obvious the other approach doesn't make a difference.

That's an idea. My biggest contention with starting Blair is definitely the fact that we'd be spotting the other team points. There's so many dangerous teams in the West right now that I don't want to risk that.

I think it's worth a try. Given the nature of his injuries and his history as a player, I think the shorter stints would be better for him as well. Exactly. Might as well try something different at this stage.

pjjrfan

04-07-2012, 07:23 PM

I've lived in major media markets and the situation with sports reporting here in San Antonio is completely different. In major markets you are likely to have multiple newspapers, television stations, and news and sports radio stations. You're also likely to have several personalities, whether print or on air, that have national followings and sources within the franchises of very long standing. You also have multiple sports franchises, so the teams have to be sure to keep good relations with the local press.

In a town like San Antonio, you have one daily newspaper and a few television stations. There are two sports radio stations, but there's not much local programming. The Spurs are the only game in town and Pop has become a giant figure here because of the Spurs' success. (I know someone who lives in Salt Lake City and it was the same with Sloan).

Pop has so much more power than any member of the local press that it would be career suicide for any one of them to challenge him. He just won't answer questions that he doesn't want to, and there's no demand from the community at large to put the screws to Pop. At Bowen's jersey retirement, Pop got a huge ovation when he was introduced. The general community and the ticket buying public are very happy with Pop.

The only people who really want to get real answers from Pop are people like us, and we account for a very, very small minority of the Spurs fanbase. So we only get what the Spurs want us to get.
Pop is like this with everyone including the national media. Some one should look up Peter Vescey's tirade against Pop back in 03 after Pop gave him a solid tongue lashing.

pjjrfan

04-07-2012, 07:27 PM

I think once Manu made that spectacular pass to Mills the Hornets just gave up. The look on thier faces was classic.

TD 21

04-07-2012, 07:34 PM

FuzzyLumpkins

04-07-2012, 07:38 PM

McDonald is the beat writer for the Express-New, so he has a courtside seat on Press Row for all home games. That's not the same as access. Sean has access, but he isn't dishing any dirt on Pop or the team.

Have you seen Pop answer questions from the press during past playoff runs? He can be charming and amusing in his own way, but he doesn't suffer fools gladly. If someone asks about coaching decisions and he doesn't feel like giving a thoughtful answer, he'll just say something vanilla like "we thought that gave us the best chance to win the game".

He's just untouchable at this point. The owner has his back and he'll coach the team until he's ready to retire to his vineyard.

I get that 100%. You are not going to be able to browbeat Pop into being more open but that does not mean that you cannot appeal to him in other ways.

Its about building trust and respect and no one in the local media has been able to garner that.

TheSkeptic

04-07-2012, 07:43 PM

You don't go away from something that's devastatingly effective. If the price is rather quick fatigue, so be it. Let's face it, in most match-ups, he won't be utilized alongside Duncan anyway. So does it matter if he's gassed by the end of a 7-8 minute 1st half stint, if he's not going to play for the remainder of the half? And he'll most likely only get a 5-6 minute stint in the 2nd half. I'm talking playoffs, of course.

For the match-ups where they need him to play alongside Duncan, there's a simple solution: Give him the Ginobili treatment. Which is to say, play him in spurts. He can still play 25-30 minutes, only it can be accomplished in 6-8 minute bursts.

I think your take on these rotations is right, and that's something I'm probably going to disagree with. I just think that you need to play your best players in the post-season. The dropoff between TD/Tiago/Boris and Bonner/Blair is too much for me to get over.

I get what you're saying. But I think that making 6-8 stints the norm could go a long way towards curbing some of those injuries. Just saying.

ducks

04-07-2012, 10:41 PM

I think tp is hurt. hopefully playing 16 minutes only on friday will help him.

ChumpDumper

04-08-2012, 02:50 AM

Sorry Chump I'm a little late with this one.

I would've agreed with this initially except I think Splitter's post-up game has improved dramatically from just the start of the season to today.I agree inasmuch as he's not dribbling and throwing up flip shots anymore. Basically he fights for position until he's two feet from the basket, receives the pass and lays it in or dunks. That's great, but it probably takes as much energy as the pick and roll does. So the problem is the same.

chazley

04-08-2012, 03:30 AM

Some one should look up Peter Vescey's tirade against Pop back in 03 after Pop gave him a solid tongue lashing.

Please? I can't find anything.

Obstructed_View

04-08-2012, 04:07 AM

Fair enough, but is anyone seriously making the case that some labels on the internet are having any impact whatsoever on how Pop uses Tiago?

The labels are simply an attempt to justify how Pop uses him. It's the slightly less ugly cousin of "there must be something he sees in practice" and "how many rings do you have, coach?"

Gagnrath

04-08-2012, 04:29 AM

I see a bit of a problem with using tim/tiago lineups as being that yes Tiago has the speed to cover the PF position for a short while but he quickly wears out and looses that spring to his step. Against some larger or slower PF's this isn't a problem (and also holds true to blair) however I don't really understand the logic of keeping blair in if you are holding Tiago out for the same reason.

ChumpDumper

04-08-2012, 04:50 AM

The labels are simply an attempt to justify how Pop uses him. It's the slightly less ugly cousin of "there must be something he sees in practice" and "how many rings do you have, coach?"Are you saying he never had a problem with nagging injuries?

Sorry man, sometimes the name fits because the name fits.

jjktkk

04-08-2012, 10:44 AM

It might be senility.

Your trolling here, or your really ignorant, stupid, etc....

Pop's said alot of crazy things as well as forgetting stuff he said before. He called Bogans the centerpiece. He called Splitter the lynch-pin. He said they were going to get back to playing defense.

Why is this crazy? Are head coaches not allowed to make mistakes? Bogans being the so called "centerpiece" failed because of Bogans not being talented enough to carry it out. Leonard can now be called the "centerpiece". Pop's "centerpiece" is sound in theory if he has the right player personnel to pull it off.

Pop's no longer the defense first coach he was in '08.

Pop is no longer the defensive coach because of the loss of key defenders in Bowen, Horry, DROB, etc..., as well as the gradual decline of Duncan. I didn't think you had to be an Einstein clone to figure it out.

therealtruth

04-08-2012, 12:11 PM

Your trolling here, or your really ignorant, stupid, etc....

Why is this crazy? Are head coaches not allowed to make mistakes? Bogans being the so called "centerpiece" failed because of Bogans not being talented enough to carry it out. Leonard can now be called the "centerpiece". Pop's "centerpiece" is sound in theory if he has the right player personnel to pull it off.

Coaches can make mistakes. But at least they should own up to them.

TheSkeptic

04-08-2012, 03:12 PM

I agree inasmuch as he's not dribbling and throwing up flip shots anymore. Basically he fights for position until he's two feet from the basket, receives the pass and lays it in or dunks. That's great, but it probably takes as much energy as the pick and roll does. So the problem is the same.

Well yeah. His post game is still a work in progress but it's been somewhat effective although not something I'd want him to rely on at this point. I think it'll be better next season.

I see what you're saying here and it does make some sense. That said, I'm going with Sean's opinion that backing down is less draining than running across the court and setting screens for all your teammates.

Another idea though would be to play him more with better defenders? Jax I think is a start but guys like Bonner and Neal...

I see a bit of a problem with using tim/tiago lineups as being that yes Tiago has the speed to cover the PF position for a short while but he quickly wears out and looses that spring to his step. Against some larger or slower PF's this isn't a problem (and also holds true to blair) however I don't really understand the logic of keeping blair in if you are holding Tiago out for the same reason.

Who says they'd have to be playing strictly man to man?

Personally, I think that when you have 2 bigs like this you should play more of a match-up zone style defense.

That allows you some flexibility I think. Send your faster big (Tiago) to deal with the pick and roll whenever it comes up and then crash the defensive boards.

Play Tiago in shorter periods (none of this 7+ shift business) like say the first 5 minutes and I think he'll hold up fine since he'll have help on D and won't have to be the focal point of the offense until the bench comes in.