MUST Duncan and Splitter play together for a Championship?

[Fabbs]

Sooner or later in the playoffs we're gonna run into a team with a two bigs combo.

Can the Spurs win a Championship with Splitter and Duncan continuing to play very minimal minutes together :pop: in the playoffs?

early season post:
timvp (paraphrased cause i can't find the link that i know exists)

Unless Splitter and Duncan play at the same time we have no chance in the playoffs

Spurs have since had the positive personell changes of SJax, Diaw and Pattymelt along with DickSoft being taken off the menu. So....

few days ago....

Tbh, I'm now resigned to the fact that Pop won't play Duncan and Splitter together in the playoffs. I thought that Pop should have played the two together during the regular season in case he needed that alignment in the postseason ... but it hasn't happened and likely won't happened.

Then again, I'm interested to see what Pop does against the Lakers. Playing them three times before the end of the regular season is actually a good thing because it should allow Pop to figure out if the Spurs can survive without using Duncan and Splitter against Bynum and Gasol. If Pop realizes he needs those two together, it'd be frustrating because he wasted so much time ignoring that combo but there'd probably be enough time for a crash course.

Akin to ^^. If/when you see :pop: march out Bonbon as the 6th man in the 1st playoff game and continuing, is it over already?

[DeadlyDynasty]

Yes, they MUST play big minutes together if they hope to beat Memphis and/or the Lakers.

[jjktkk]

CIA info TBD if/when the Spurs play the Grizz. or Lakers in the playoffs.

[mercos]

I don't believe they have to play together to win. However, I think it would extremely hard to win with Blair in the starting lineup. His offense has actually been decent lately, but against big front lines he would get abused. I think putting Diaw into the starting lineup and having Splitter and Bonner as the backups could work. Obviously it would be preferable to have Splitter and Duncan play together, but that is not likely to happen at this point.

[Proxy]

Yes, they MUST play big minutes together if they hope to beat Memphis and/or the Lakers.

Yep. For LA and MEM... other teams, not so much.

[timvp]

I can't find where I said that either but I don't deny saying it. Sounds like something I would have said at one point.

Do I still think Duncan and Splitter has to play together in order for the Spurs to win a championship? Well, first of all, I think it'd make it a lot easier. Come playoff time, you want your best players on the court. You can win regular season games by utilizing depth and a strong bench unit, but that doesn't work nearly as well come the postseason. Splitter and Duncan are the two best bigmen on the Spurs so it's definitely a problem that Pop has failed to build chemistry between the two. If Duncan/Splitter was a legit option right now, I'd feel better about San Antonio's chances.

But it's not so the road to a championship is going to be more difficult and will require more smoke and mirrors. That said, the equation has changed enough to make it possible for the Spurs to win it all without Duncan and Splitter spending time next to each other.

1. Adding Boris Diaw is key. He gives the Spurs a legit option to put next to Duncan that is somewhere between the extremes that are Blair and Bonner. Blair is probably too small and too interior-oriented to thrive in the playoffs. Bonner is probably too soft and too perimeter-oriented to thrive in the playoffs. Diaw is in the middle and more fits an Horry-type role.

2. Adding Stephen Jackson gives the Spurs a better smallball group. Pop can go with Jackson and Kawhi Leonard at the forward spots and have a combination that includes enough length, athleticism and toughness to put up a good fight.

3. As it stands, there are only two teams that the Spurs really need Duncan and Splitter against: the Lakers and the Grizzlies (the Bulls might also belong in this category ... tough to say). If the Spurs can avoid those teams, which is probably unlikely but not impossible, Pop failing to play Duncan and Splitter together in the regular season probably won't be the team's downfall.

[DPG21920]

Variables have changed

[jjktkk]

Variables have changed

I take it you mean the added depth in Diaw, and Jackson, specifically?

[DPG21920]

Boris getting DNPCD

[DPG21920]

I was saying that's Timvp speak for when pop doesn't do certain things.

[therealtruth]

Pretty much yes. The answer hasn't changed much since last season. The Spurs played russian roulette and lost.

[DPG21920]

The thing about the Spurs in the playoffs is they are seemingly a team that has to hide their weaknesses vs playing to their strengths. That always makes it a dicey proposition.

[capek]

2. Adding Stephen Jackson gives the Spurs a better smallball group. Pop can go with Jackson and Kawhi Leonard at the forward spots and have a combination that includes enough length, athleticism and toughness to put up a good fight.


I'd be really interested in seeming some work done on a small ball line up that included Diaw at the 4, with Timmy or Tiago at the 5. Tony, Kawhi, SJax, Diaw and Duncan/Splitter. Even with the weight Diaw has put on, from what I've seen of him I think he's still quick enough to stay with the other team's SF on the perimeter. My gut tells me we could use this lineup to really exploit the other team when they go small, punish them on with a size advantage when we're on offense, and still be quick enough to defend well on defense.

[timvp]

Variables have changed

Have they not? Do you simply ignore Diaw and trading in a Charmin SF for a P.A.T. SF?


The thing about the Spurs in the playoffs is they are seemingly a team that has to hide their weaknesses vs playing to their strengths. That always makes it a dicey proposition.

Pop has been a counterpuncher since the 1999 championship, tbh.

[DPG21920]

I see Diaw getting DNPCD and getting someone that doesn't really change the rotations, especially when depth in the playoffs is overrated, doesn't change things all that much IMHO.

Also the new variables didn't change the fact Tiago is still a top 5 player and doesn't get minutes to reflect that.

[TheSkeptic]

The thing about the Spurs in the playoffs is they are seemingly a team that has to hide their weaknesses vs playing to their strengths. That always makes it a dicey proposition.

I agree with this which is why I'd rather just play our best players.

And also, as much as it is about giving the best players more time, it's also about keeping minutes away from people like Blair while also limiting Bonner's.

While it's possible for the Spurs to win it all starting Blair and playing Bonner, I don't think they do it unless a team like Boston or Orlando can pull an upset in the East and they also manage to avoid the big frontlines.

[timvp]

I see Diaw getting DNPCD and getting someone that doesn't really change the rotations

:lol Damn bro, he's been with the team for a couple weeks. Give him a chance to earn a spot in the rotation, tbh.

[DPG21920]

I guess I'm the one who has it backwards :lol

On this team you earn minutes and contracts by choking in the playoffs and you get chances to show your stuff by getting Dnp'd

Also, what about that 2nd part scro? Did the variables drop Tiago on the talent chart?

[DPG21920]

I still think the Spurs win it all though.

I guess I just don't understand using the variable card when you yourself said the players the Spurs picked up might not change things too much and that expectations should be low.

[boutons_deux]

Probably required, but Pop is not allowing them to play together in the late season, so he probably won't do it in the playoffs until the Spurs are behind in series and Pop realizes, kicked in the head by the reality of desperation of blowing a Championship run, how he made another mistake not playing his best hand.

[timvp]

On this team you earn minutes and contracts by choking in the playoffs and you get chances to show your stuff by getting Dnp'd


I still think the Spurs win it all though.

Either the variables have changed and DPG needs bipolar medication or DPG's Splitter obsession is an odd attempt at trolling.

[Mel_13]

Either the variables have changed and DPG needs bipolar medication or DPG's Splitter obsession is an odd attempt at trolling.

I've been convinced that he's trolling for quite some time.

He spends far too much time with the mouth breathers downstairs, tbh. It carries over, and not in a good way.

[DPG21920]

What? I do think the Spurs can win it all despite the Tiago issue. My point was that if you truly thought Tiago was needed (by that meaning the Spurs had a title chance) before the "variables changed" that these moves shouldn't have changed your mind. I didn't think before the trades playing Tiago and Tim would give the Spurs a legit title shot (although I obviously thought it made them better, whatever that ceiling may be). After the trade, I think they are legit contenders and while getting Tiago more minutes adds to that, it doesn't mean the variables were so impactful it should change completely what you said (Unless Splitter and Duncan play at the same time we have no chance in the playoffs)

[DPG21920]

I've been convinced that he's trolling for quite some time.

He spends far too much time with the mouth breathers downstairs, tbh. It carries over, and not in a good way.

That's dumb, no offense. What have I said that is even close to trolling on the issue?

[Mel_13]

That's dumb, no offense. What have I said that is even close to trolling on the issue?

No offense taken, but if it's not trolling then it's dumb. No offense.

[DPG21920]

No offense taken, but if it's not trolling then it's dumb. No offense.

How so? Please explain.

[DPG21920]

I was making fun of Timvps use of the variables changed shtick. Not saying the variables didn't change.

[DPG21920]

I made two separate statements:

1) I think the Spurs win it all

2) I think Tiago is a top 5 player on the team and doesn't get enough minutes.

I also made fun of timvp saying the variables thing and I'm sorry if that wasn't a serious convo as I know the thought of mixing serious convo with jokes is not what you're here for. It's show business, not show friends.

[Mel_13]

How so? Please explain.

You like to argue, you always have. I'm halfway convinced that you would rather extend an argument than win one just to keep it going. From where I sit, you wind up taking self-contradicting positions over time in order to stick to a position or to perpetuate a debate. Now you're either doing that intentionally, which I would consider trolling, or you're unaware of it, which would make you dumb. For the record, I certainly don't think you're dumb which leaves me to conclude that you're trolling.

And no, I'm not going to cite examples (thus creating an entirely new debate) as I'm absolutely convinced that you know exactly what I'm talking about.

[timvp]

My point was that if you truly thought Tiago was needed before the "variables changed" that these moves shouldn't have changed your mind.


I didn't think before the trades playing Tiago and Tim would give the Spurs a legit title shot. After the trade, I think they are legit contenders

:lmao

So DPG is allowed to change his own variables drastically enough following the trade to move the Spurs from non-contenders to "legit title" contenders, but he doesn't allow anyone else to adjust any opinion because the variables changed. That is some very interesting logic, tbh.

You obviously agree the variables have changed since you now think the changed variables have allowed the Spurs to take a quantum leap forward in their contending status, so what is your issue exactly?

Early in the season, Splitter appeared a must for clutch-time lineups based solely on his skill level. However, months later after a series of roster moves and nearly a season of basketball, variables have changed. In addition to the new additions, other players improved enough to change the variables.

For example, a lineup of Parker, Ginobili, Jackson, Leonard and Duncan very well could contain the five players on the team most capable of thriving in the clutch. Early in the season, Jackson was on the Bucks and Leonard was a passive, unproven rookie.

Variables change in the NBA everyday. I remember you thought James Anderson was the second coming during preseason. At that point, you probably would have been against the addition of Stephen Jackson since James Anderson was too good. But obviously, variables changed and now no one cares how SJax impacts James Anderson.

Variables change, bro, variables change.

[DPG21920]

You like to argue, you always have. I'm halfway convinced that you would rather extend an argument than win one just to keep it going. From where I sit, you wind up taking self-contradicting positions over time in order to stick to a position or to perpetuate a debate. Now you're either doing that intentionally, which I would consider trolling, or you're unaware of it, which would make you dumb. For the record, I certainly don't think you're dumb which leaves me to conclude that you're trolling.

And no, I'm not going to cite examples (thus creating an entirely new debate) as I'm absolutely convinced that you know exactly what I'm talking about.

I'm quite certain everyone does what you describe. I know you are an extraordinary literal person, no frills type. I fail to see how with regards to the Tiago issue (is he being utilized properly) and whether or not the Spurs can win it all (which I said they will) are self-contradictory. They are not mutually exclusive in my eyes and that was the point.

Mixing in lite jabs and arguing different points (when there are some parallels) is something I know you don't enjoy. You aren't here for banter it appears, just for serious convos that stick to one issue with little opinion involved. Not my style, but that's how you seemingly derive enjoyment from this site.

Point is, I really think you would struggle to find examples of me contradicting myself. I may not do the best job at times of articulating points, but with a little explanation I'm usually able to back up my arguments.

I think the contradictions come from saying things like the Spurs have no shot unless Tiago/Tim play together to saying the variables have changed that while also saying the new players probably won't do much so temper expectations.

To me there is no point in solely saying what has actually happened; you need to have opinions on what you think will happen supported by what info we have.

[Mel_13]

I'm quite certain everyone does what you describe. I know you are an extraordinary literal person, no frills type. I fail to see how with regards to the Tiago issue (is he being utilized properly) and whether or not the Spurs can win it all (which I said they will) are self-contradictory. They are not mutually exclusive in my eyes and that was the point.

Mixing in lite jabs and arguing different points (when there are some parallels) is something I know you don't enjoy. You aren't here for banter it appears, just for serious convos that stick to one issue with little opinion involved. Not my style, but that's how you seemingly derive enjoyment from this site.

Point is, I really think you would struggle to find examples of me contradicting myself. I may not do the best job at times of articulating points, but with a little explanation I'm usually able to back up my arguments.

I think the contradictions come from saying things like the Spurs have no shot unless Tiago/Tim play together to saying the variables have changed that while also saying the new players probably won't do much so temper expectations.

To me there is no point in solely saying what has actually happened; you need to have opinions on what you think will happen supported by what info we have.

You asked for an explanation. I gave you one. Sorry that you didn't like it and found it necessary to ascribe a set of traits to me that help you to rationalize an explanation that you asked for.

[timvp]

The Spurs aren't legit contenders.*variables change*
The Spurs are legit contenders.


To me there is no point in solely saying what has actually happened; you need to have opinions on what you think will happen supported by what info we have.

:smchode:

[DPG21920]

:lmao

So DPG is allowed to change his own variables drastically enough following the trade to move the Spurs from non-contenders to "legit title" contenders, but he doesn't allow anyone else to adjust any opinion because the variables changed. That is some very interesting logic, tbh.

You obviously agree the variables have changed since you now think the changed variables have allowed the Spurs to take a quantum leap forward in their contending status, so what is your issue exactly?

Early in the season, Splitter appeared a must for clutch-time lineups based solely on his skill level. However, months later after a series of roster moves and nearly a season of basketball, variables have changed. In addition to the new additions, other players improved enough to change the variables.

For example, a lineup of Parker, Ginobili, Jackson, Leonard and Duncan very well could contain the five players on the team most capable of thriving in the clutch. Early in the season, Jackson was on the Bucks and Leonard was a passive, unproven rookie.

Variables change in the NBA everyday. I remember you thought James Anderson was the second coming during preseason. At that point, you probably would have been against the addition of Stephen Jackson since James Anderson was too good. But obviously, variables changed and now no one cares how SJax impacts James Anderson.

Variables change, bro, variables change.

No. You're missing my point. Variables do change and have. The difference in you and I in this regard though is I gave the Spurs a 0% chance at winning in the playoffs regardless of Tiago's time with Tim and you gave the Spurs a shot if that were to happen.

The other difference is I instantly was of the opinion that the new variables would have a large impact on the team while you outlined why they probably don't do much (either washed up and questionable attitude in Jax or fitness and motivation in Diaw) to change things from a title perspective.

In that regard, you saying Tiago is needed before the moves shouldn't have changed like you say it did with the variables if you truly believed Tiago would be the difference in winning or not.

In my scenario, while I think Tiago deserves more minutes (which is a separate argument vs the contending) I never thought even with that the Spurs would have a shot even if he got those minutes. In my scenario I thought that the variables has to change independent of the Tiago situation in order for there to be a shot at winning it all. They did change and where we were different was I instantly thought those moves and impact put he Spurs over the top where your expectations were much more tempered.

If those were your real expectations of the basketball ramifications, then in that context the Splitter variable shouldn't have changed so drastically IMO.

I never said the variables didn't change; I poked at you because you use that line for several things and based on your previous comments I didn't see how it changed so much from your angle.

[DPG21920]

You asked for an explanation. I gave you one. Sorry that you didn't like it and found it necessary to ascribe a set of traits to me that help you to rationalize an explanation that you asked for.

Ok.

[Ryan Fitzpatrick]

I still think the Spurs win it all though.

10/10, ya'll been trolled imho

[timvp]

The difference in you and I in this regard though is I gave the Spurs a 0% chance at winning in the playoffs regardless of Tiago's time with Tim and you gave the Spurs a shot if that were to happen.

So because you gave the Spurs a 0% chance and I gave the Spurs a 1% chance, you get freedom to change your stances more drastically due to the changed variables? We done been trolled, tbh.

[TD 21]

I can't find where I said that either but I don't deny saying it. Sounds like something I would have said at one point.

Do I still think Duncan and Splitter has to play together in order for the Spurs to win a championship? Well, first of all, I think it'd make it a lot easier. Come playoff time, you want your best players on the court. You can win regular season games by utilizing depth and a strong bench unit, but that doesn't work nearly as well come the postseason. Splitter and Duncan are the two best bigmen on the Spurs so it's definitely a problem that Pop has failed to build chemistry between the two. If Duncan/Splitter was a legit option right now, I'd feel better about San Antonio's chances.

But it's not so the road to a championship is going to be more difficult and will require more smoke and mirrors. That said, the equation has changed enough to make it possible for the Spurs to win it all without Duncan and Splitter spending time next to each other.

1. Adding Boris Diaw is key. He gives the Spurs a legit option to put next to Duncan that is somewhere between the extremes that are Blair and Bonner. Blair is probably too small and too interior-oriented to thrive in the playoffs. Bonner is probably too soft and too perimeter-oriented to thrive in the playoffs. Diaw is in the middle and more fits an Horry-type role.

2. Adding Stephen Jackson gives the Spurs a better smallball group. Pop can go with Jackson and Kawhi Leonard at the forward spots and have a combination that includes enough length, athleticism and toughness to put up a good fight.

3. As it stands, there are only two teams that the Spurs really need Duncan and Splitter against: the Lakers and the Grizzlies (the Bulls might also belong in this category ... tough to say). If the Spurs can avoid those teams, which is probably unlikely but not impossible, Pop failing to play Duncan and Splitter together in the regular season probably won't be the team's downfall.

You pretty much covered it. Between Diaw and then Jackson and Leonard, as small ball options, there's enough closing options at the four now, that it's no longer a complete and total must. Especially when you consider two of the main contenders. The Thunder close with Durant at the four and the Heat usually close with Haslem at the four, or sometimes James. Haslem is undersized and not a post up threat though, so Pop could easily get away with Jackson closing at the four. As for the Bulls, Pop wouldn't play them together against them, unless Boozer suddenly began to play like the Boozer of five years ago.

I actually think the Bulls are the worst match-up of the bunch. Obviously, they're extremely tough defensively, but they're also the best rebounding team in the league. Pop would probably close with Bonner against them, which would lead to the Spurs getting bludgeoned on the glass. Plus, Gibson is the ideal Bonner defender. He'd be hard pressed to get a clean look, so the Spurs would probably get nothing out of him.

Bonner will likely be the main closing option period, unless Diaw starts to show more of a proclivity to take and make threes again. Pop probably views them as close enough defensively and on the glass, that Bonner's superior shooter and corporate knowledge, should win out. Even against the Lakers and Grizzlies, I wouldn't be surprised if Pop tried to get away with Bonner closing. They'll probably be a shorter leash than playoffs past, though.

[DPG21920]

You're ignoring the other half of the post. It wasn't just the pre-variables take. It was your take vs mine AFTER the moves were made. I thought the instant impact made us contenders. You're expectations we're way more tempered.

In any event it was a little joke the variables comment

[therealtruth]

It seems like everybody on the roster has started at PF except Splitter. I would prefer Tiago be given a chance but I think the next best thing is probably Diaw.

[quentin_compson]

It's going to be interesting to see if Pop plays Duncan and Splitter together more in the upcoming games against the Lakers. But I doubt he will.