Ginobili has to start

[MmP]

First of all. I wanted to make this thread after a win. Not right after the Lakers collapse on Wednesday because it's so easy to throw cheap shots at a team that has just lost an important game and people usually pop desperate changes. While I do believe the Lakers game was key and important to the team's confidence. I don't believe it's a point of no-return game. Luckly our Spurs have more games against Los Angeles and other good playoff teams. As the say: better now than when it matters.
I hope last night epic struggle puts us on the right path to fix team's deficits.

Wednesday night punch was a heavy one, made the average Spurs fan re-think the idea that this team can win it all and unfortunately the Spurs seem to have few answers when falling into holes: stretches where the other teams guards us better, has a good pace and good team chemestry to score. That, combined with the inefficency of not scoring at will or move the ball well (both major seasons strenghts) makes us pay big time.
Overall, I still believe this team can work them out.

That being said, Im starting to believe that bringing Manu off the bench is no longer an advantage for this team. Manu has a great amount of energy while he is on the court, last night the Spurs could have used that energy much more while our team found them selves in deep hesitation. I think the Spurs might fall in this situation more often that not against most of the playoffs teams. But If Manu is on the court right at the start of the game we can click faster and avoid bad stretches.
As well as I think this move can work there's the opposite side of it: who has to pay the inevitable price of confidence blower?. A growing rookie K. Leonard?. Or the good year of D. Green?
Well, I do believe that if get Manu in the starting line up any of those guy who go back to the bench will drop the mayority of his confidence. Espeacially being young guys as they are. Same situation 'suffered' to Manu in his first year as a starter: 2004. It wasn't actually a matter of him not playing good but mostly because he brought more off the bench at that time.
So if a player like Ginobili that has been in and out of the starting group went-through a loss of self-confidence, why even more inexperienced players like Leonard or Green should avoid that situation?

Above all, I still believe that having Ginobili from the start is the best choice for this team today. It's either that or keep hitting the same wall of stretches where nothing works. A team first type of player like Ginobili can fix those holes and put this team right back on track.

Believe.

edit: I wrote this before the grizz game ended. After 3rd quarter I guess Im more eager to see him in the first line up, and Tiago as well...but that's a whole new thread.

[CitizenDwayne]

As for blowing confidence, I'm not sure if Green's confidence can be blown at this point. Even on off nights, his testicles are clearly visible.

[slick'81]

would prefer splitter tbh

[Paranoid Pop]

No, he has to be on the floor when Tp is on the bench.

[TheSkeptic]

The wings are fairly interchangeable as long as Manu's getting enough minutes it should be okay. Though at the same time he's capable of going on huge scoring runs...I can see both sides.

[MmP]

No, he has to be on the floor when Tp is on the bench.
It's a good point but with the stretches Tony is having in big games this move might actually compensates for Parker's struggles.

[MmP]

The wings are fairly interchangeable as long as Manu's getting enough minutes it should be okay. Though at the same time he's capable of going on huge scoring runs...I can see both sides.
That's pretty much as I saw it up to Wed night. I think that in a huge game like the Lakers one Manu right out of the gates would have helped to avoid initial struggles and hesitation.

[ALVAREZ6]

As for blowing confidence, I'm not sure if Green's confidence can be blown at this point. Even on off nights, his testicles are clearly visible.

mah nigga

[Spurtacus]

Spurs just won 11 in a row. How many games did Ginobili start during that run? I think Pop has a solid rotation with the wings and bringing Manu off the bench allows him to run the second team when TP sits. When the playoffs roll around Manu will be getting 30+ minutes a night so start or off the bench won't matter. Its no coincidence that Manu got 30 minutes tonight, his most this season since before his injury. Pop treated tonight like a playoff game.

[Robz4000]

No he doesn't. He's been doing wonders coming off the bench, and Green blends in well with the starting lineup. Just keep having Manu close games and you're solid.

[elemento]

We simply can't start him without a reliable backup PG. Neal is not a PG and Mills is a 3rd string PG.

[sehui]

unproven if Green won't be affected from losing his starting position ,far too late in the game to mess around with that now.

Tony struggles against LAL and Grizz, if we do seem them in the playoffs, we need Manu off the bench for another surge.

Manu doesn't need to start. It won't change his game. Just give him enough minutes, and he will play. He's been playing like sub 30 min per game, trust me, come playoffs he'll be good to go. It's not like he's playing that bad either. Despite the shitstorm from LAL and that horrible Celtics win, he's been very efficient.

He's not looking to score because he doesn't need to, but in the playoffs when he is required to be supermanu, he will get it done.

[therealtruth]

I agree Manu's got to start. You can't go into the playoffs with 2 rookies starting.

[Spurtacus]

I agree Manu's got to start. You can't go into the playoffs with 2 rookies starting.

Who's the other rookie besides Kawhi?

[therealtruth]

Who's the other rookie besides Kawhi?

Playoff rookies. Green barely played against the Grizzlies.

[100%duncan]

No, he has to be on the floor when Tp is on the bench.

This. But Pop can bring him anytime he wants as long as he is with tiago tbh. PnR is unstopable.

[Mal]

Keep Manu on the bench. Parker could run 12 minutes, half on them with second unit. But Gino and/or Duncan couldnt. To diversify offense, Manu should stay on the bench. Get in after 5-6 minutes. Play with Duncan and Parker for 2 or 3, and then after warm up, run with second unit.

[rmt]

This is what's needed in the playoffs:

Duncan - 33 mins.
Splitter - 33 mins.
Diaw - 15 mins.
Bonner - 15 mins.
Blair - never set foot on the court

[MmP]

Manu doesn't need to start. It won't change his game. Just give him enough minutes, and he will play. He's been playing like sub 30 min per game, trust me, come playoffs he'll be good to go. It's not like he's playing that bad either. Despite the shitstorm from LAL and that horrible Celtics win, he's been very efficient.
It's not a matter of Manu tbh, it's actually for the team to improve. With wins, the starting Ginobili issue won't come around much. Otherwise the move will nature surge: as it's happened before (2005, 2007).
It's a matter of energy, and that's the key word. As in the past not having Manu starting was a case of having a more energy off the bench, now it seems natural to have Ginobili in the starting group to avoid energy-less stretches.

[Mal]

This is what's needed in the playoffs:

Duncan - 33 mins.
Splitter - 33 mins.
Diaw - 15 mins.
Bonner - 15 mins.
Blair - never set foot on the court

Why even bother ? Splitter wont get 33 mins. Did he even play so much in single game this season ?

[TheSkeptic]

Why even bother ? Splitter wont get 33 mins. Did he even play so much in single game this season ?

The Rockets game maybe?

It's a shame too because with the way he's been playing the Spurs won't be able to afford him when he becomes a free agent next summer. Ugh.

[emanueldavidginobili]

For now Manu can come off the bench but when the playoffs start Manu needs to start. Its crucial the Spurs start off on the right foot in the beginning of the game in the playoffs he will add to the energy right from the get-go and have a good flow for the beginning of the games

[T Park]

This is what's needed in the playoffs:

Duncan - 33 mins.
Splitter - 33 mins.
Diaw - 15 mins.
Bonner - 15 mins.
Blair - never set foot on the court



I think there's certain members of the coaching staff that would agree with this along with me.

[Proxy]

Manu and Jack are better than Green and Kawhi... obviously... but I like those two coming in together off the bench. I wish Manu would get over the facilitator over scorer mindset though.

The guard rotations aren't what we should be concerned about anyways. It's the big men. It's the game plan for MEM and LAL in particular... hopefully these games against the Lakers become a blessing in disguise and get the coaching staff ready for bigger teams in the playoffs.

Regardless of performance... everyone seemed to man up after the Laker rape fest.

[therealtruth]

For now Manu can come off the bench but when the playoffs start Manu needs to start. Its crucial the Spurs start off on the right foot in the beginning of the game in the playoffs he will add to the energy right from the get-go and have a good flow for the beginning of the games

I'm reminded of Pop going with George Hill against Steve Nash in '10. I think if he had gone with Parker, a guy who had the experience against Nash, the series might have been different.

[TJastal]

Tough call at this point. A week ago I would have said absoulutely no way should Manu start. Only reason would have been Green struggling. Or if it was becoming clear that Parker's nuts were going to shrivel up once the playoffs started. Well looking at things now, Green is still holding up his end. Parker otoh looks like he's falling apart.

Tbh this team is going nowhere if Parker can't continue to at least be the best player on the team (if not continue his MVP levels). This also entails being the leader of the team. It's a big responsibility. But we can't rely on Duncan and Manu anymore at their ages. It has to be Tony.

I say leave things as they are. Parker either steps up when it matters or he won't. The spurs will go only as far as he takes them.

[DMC]

It doesn't matter who starts. Our bench is capable of sustaining momentum and even pushing the lead. We have the best bench in the league. That's more important than whether or not Manu starts. Also, Manu's ability to run the point (pretty damn good) would be wasted as he stands at the arc watching Tony dribble away the shot clock. You need Tony with the ball, and you need Manu with the ball. Manu is so good in the pick and roll that he can get bench guys involved.

[antgomez2009]

Manu Has to Come off the bench...He's like the James Harden of San Antonio, he can create his own shots and penetrate the defense to look for open players...at some point during the game he plays with TP and Duncan anyways, usually towards the end....I think the line up is good, dont mess with it, players are going to have to step up, because come playoff time, everything comes into effect, i know one player that will show up not named Tim, Tony or Manu...and thats Gary Neal. Bonner has to not nut up so quickly; I think Tiago should be fine as well as jackson and Diaw, but Green, Leonard, blair and mills might concern me a bit...

[EVAY]

I honestly believe that Manu should NOT start, not because he is not our best passer or perhaps even our best player, but for two reasons. 1, Our second team is extremely great with him on it directing it and passing. He makes it so much better than Neal and/or Mills.
2. If you notice, when Manu comes into the line-up with Tim and Tony, even after the start of the game (i.e., off the bench), that is when Tony starts to get passive. Watch it during the game. So often Manu gets the ball to bring it up the court as a point guard would do, and when that happens, Tony goes to the position in the offense that would be normally occupied by the shooting guard, i.e. on the wing. Then when he gets the ball he is in the position where that player should be shooting a three pointer, but he isn't good at that, so he either passes or misses a shot, and he ends up being passive. In other words, it pulls Tony out of his position and he is not good at playing out of position. In order to get the maximum out of our best players, I think we need to bring Manu in off the bench.

[Bruno]

The Parker/Green/Leoanrd/Blair/Duncan unit has been a statistical disaster. They are -27 in 115 minutes played. They really struggles on both end of the court. They score 101.4 points per 100 possession while Spurs are at 109.5. They allow 109.7 points per 100 possession while Spurs are at 103.2.

Pop must fix this starting lineup but starting Ginobili isn't the only answer.
Blair is obviously a weak link of this unit. Replacing him will be improvement and it looks like Pop is taking that road with Blair going more and more in the doghouse.
The Green/Leonard wing combo can be changed by adding Jackson and/or Ginobili. Green/Jackson, Ginobili/Leonard or Ginobili/Jackson makes all sense and should improve the offensive input of this unit which depend too much on Parker.

[emanueldavidginobili]

Tony Manu Jax Duncan Tiago is a great starting line up

[Spursfanfromafar]

The Parker/Green/Leoanrd/Blair/Duncan unit has been a statistical disaster. They are -27 in 115 minutes played. They really struggles on both end of the court. They score 101.4 points per 100 possession while Spurs are at 109.5. They allow 109.7 points per 100 possession while Spurs are at 103.2.

Pop must fix this starting lineup but starting Ginobili isn't the only answer.
Blair is obviously a weak link of this unit. Replacing him will be improvement and it looks like Pop is taking that road with Blair going more and more in the doghouse.
The Green/Leonard wing combo can be changed by adding Jackson and/or Ginobili. Green/Jackson, Ginobili/Leonard or Ginobili/Jackson makes all sense and should improve the offensive input of this unit which depend too much on Parker.

Green/Jackson is the obvious answer. Ginobili is required to do backup point guard duties and he functions very well with Splitter. He is best utilised in the sixth man position and IMO, he also avoids injury by playing there. Minutes are also well distributed when Ginobili is in the second unit.

Leonard is pretty good, but his role in the offense seems to be very diminished and he is mostly asked to "scavenge" for his offense. While Jackson's FG% is low and that is hurting him, I think as a volume shooter, he is better than Leonard. Jackson is quite capable in defense and while Leonard has the higher ceiling, that is not the criteria to judge for a championship chasing team. Again, minutes can be so rationed so as to utilise Leonard from the bench for appropriate match-ups.

Green starts by default because Ginobili is the sixth man.

Blair needs to be dumped on the bench..and hopefully he gets us something via trade next season. Energy guy, hustles well and offers some variety in the paint, but he is the misfit in the Spurs squad by far. Hopefully there is a way to get a decent first round pick by selling him to a team which is interested in taking him.

Or maybe he can be exchanged for a Euro stashed player like Fran Vazquez, whose rights are owned by the Magic? Or some such. The European posters here will know better.

[MmP]

If the spurs find them selves in deep trouble in the post season I can see a desperate lineup: Parker, Ginobili, Jackson, Splitter and Duncan.
Hope we don't have to get to that situation.

[Obstructed_View]

If the spurs find them selves in deep trouble in the post season I can see a desperate lineup: Parker, Ginobili, Jackson, Splitter and Duncan.
Hope we don't have to get to that situation.

Shouldn't have to get into deep trouble; that should be the starting lineup. You can make a case to put Leonard on the floor instead of Jack, since Jack can assume a sixth man role and be the go-to scorer when he comes into the game.

[Obstructed_View]

It doesn't matter who starts.

Somehow the Spurs have managed to sell that line of bullshit to their fans despite all the other teams in every other sport, going back to the beginning of team sports, that start their best players.

[therealtruth]

Somehow the Spurs have managed to sell that line of bullshit to their fans despite all the other teams in every other sport, going back to the beginning of team sports, that start their best players.

Exactly. Unless you have an extremely unbalanced roster you start your best players.

[TheSkeptic]

Shouldn't have to get into deep trouble; that should be the starting lineup. You can make a case to put Leonard on the floor instead of Jack, since Jack can assume a sixth man role and be the go-to scorer when he comes into the game.

I don't know about this. Jax seems a little too streaky for my tastes tbh whereas I'd prefer a little more steady offense from my sixth man. That said, with Neal coming off the bench as well it might not be that big of a deal.

[Bruno]

Green/Jackson is the obvious answer. Ginobili is required to do backup point guard duties and he functions very well with Splitter. He is best utilised in the sixth man position and IMO, he also avoids injury by playing there. Minutes are also well distributed when Ginobili is in the second unit.

Well, playoffs are about to start so Parker and Manu will play more minutes. Having both Manu as the starting SG and the backup PG is relatively easy to do in the playoffs.

Spurs have a lot of depth and talent so there isn't only one right starting lineup. For example, Parker/Green/Jackson/Diaw/Duncan and Parker/Ginobili/Leonard/Diaw/Duncan both makes a lot of sense. Like you, I would rather go with the Green/Jackson combo but not by a lot. What is sure is that Spurs current starting lineup is just wrong and must be changed.



Blair needs to be dumped on the bench..and hopefully he gets us something via trade next season.

Yeah, Blair needs to be benched and barely play. It would be the second consecutive season he goes from starting to the doghouse. Trading this summer for whatever Spurs can get would be then a must do.

[Spursfanfromafar]

Yeah, Blair needs to be benched and barely play. It would be the second consecutive season he goes from starting to the doghouse. Trading this summer for whatever Spurs can get would be then a must do.

Unrelated to this thread, but do you think the Magic will do a Pacers and give up rights to Vazquez for Blair? More importantly, would Vazquez will be interested to join the NBA the coming season?

[Bruno]

Unrelated to this thread, but do you think the Magic will do a Pacers and give up rights to Vazquez for Blair? More importantly, would Vazquez will be interested to join the NBA the coming season?

Well, If Magic keep Dwight Howard, they will need more Vazquez to back up Howard than Blair because they still have Anderson and Davis at PF. There have been some rumors about Vazquez finally joining the NBA next summer but I don't know how serious it is. And you have to wonder how Vazquez will play for Spurs with Pop so reticent to play Splitter with Duncan.

[acoelho1]

I think Manu should replace Green in the starting role and since Pop refuses to start Tiago, I would settle for Diaw over Blair.

Nice 8 man rotation

Parker / Neal
Ginobili / Green
Duncan / Splitter
Diaw / Bonner
Leonard / Jackson

[Mel_13]

I think Manu should replace Green in the starting role and since Pop refuses to start Tiago, I would settle for Diaw over Blair.

Nice 8 man rotation

Parker / Neal
Ginobili / Green
Duncan / Splitter
Diaw / Bonner
Leonard / Jackson

That's 10, but I agree that's what we'll see. Blair played the first 1:43 of the second half v. the Lakers and didn't see the floor at all in the second half of the Memphis game. Given his greatly reduced roles in the last two POs, I think we'll see Diaw get all of Blair's minutes in the very near future.

[ViceCity84]

I would not be surprise if Kawhi is taken out of starting lineup sometime during the playoffs.

[TD 21]

This is what's needed in the playoffs:

Duncan - 33 mins.
Splitter - 33 mins.
Diaw - 15 mins.
Bonner - 15 mins.
Blair - never set foot on the court

This is what's probably going to happen in the playoffs:

Duncan - roughly 34 mpg
Diaw - roughly 26 mpg
Bonner - roughly 22 mpg
Splitter - roughly 14 mpg


My thoughts on why Ginobili should start and how they can accomplish him doing so, while still running the second unit . . .


As far as Ginobili starting and running the second unit, he can do both. That's exactly what he did last season. As far as a general outline for a playoff rotation, just sub him out at the 5 minute mark, bring him back for Parker at the 1 minute mark, bring Parker back at the 8 minute mark, sub Ginobili back out, then bring him back at the 4-5 minute mark. That's roughly 19 and 16-17 minutes, respectively and 11-12 together, per half.

The best players need to play together for significant minutes. He already refuses to pair his fourth best player with his three best (I mean collectively, not individually) and they never play what's statistically their best five. They can't continue to compound that by not playing their three best together that much.

[therealtruth]

The Spurs real MVP.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/40669/ginobili-spurs-san-antonio-to-best-in-west

[Paranoid Pop]

The Spurs real MVP.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/40669/ginobili-spurs-san-antonio-to-best-in-west

Easily one of the worst article I've ever read.


He became just the third Hispanic/Latino player in NBA history to reach the 10,000-point plateau. Only Rolando Blackman (Panama) and Pau Gasol (Spain) have recorded more points than Ginobili among Hispanic/Latino-born players.

Why the fuck would anyone put Spanish players and South American players in the same category, doesn't make any sense, not the same continent, it's like putting together the French and the French Canadians.


In the 27 games Ginobili has played this season, the Spurs have posted a .778 winning percentage (21-6) and averaged 105.9 points.

In the 30 games he's missed, the Spurs have a .667 winning percentage (20-10) and are scoring almost eight fewer points per game (98.0) than when he plays.

Lol at counting the games that TP and Tim didn't play to try to make Manu seem more important. If you don't count the Portland and Jazz game then it's 20-8 without him but with more road games and if you want the comparison to have any meaning you'd have to factor the strenght of schedule too. Plus Manu didn't play any back2back for a while, which also decreased his chances of losing.


Since his return, the Spurs have outscored their opponents by a total of 103 points with Ginobili on the floor, the second-highest plus/minus on the team (Matt Bonner, plus-166)

:lol Still managed to give props to the real mvp of the team.

Conclusion : empty stats and garbage journalism.

[DMC]

Somehow the Spurs have managed to sell that line of bullshit to their fans despite all the other teams in every other sport, going back to the beginning of team sports, that start their best players.
And the Spurs have the winningest record in all sports. Go figure.

[Obstructed_View]

And the Spurs have the winningest record in all sports. Go figure.

Not since they stopped starting their best players.

[Obstructed_View]

I suppose that one guy who even Pop isn't stupid enough to bring off the bench* might have something to do with that great record.


*well, other than that one time.

[garrr210]

i have much more trust in dejaun than i do with diaw. but in matchups vs lakers or memphis id be forced to take diaw