Supportive housing for the chronically homeless saves San Diego $$$

[Winehole23]

Huge savings from supportive housing for chronic homeless (http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2012/04/huge-savings-from-supportive-housing.html)


Grits was interested to see a report out of California about a supportive housing program created for the 30 most expensive, chronic homeless people in San Diego, which reportedly has about 9,800 homeless folks citywide. What struck me is how a) a small number of homeless people account for a disproportionate share of cost to the taxpayers, and b) targeting services to a relatively small number of people resulted in significant savings. Reported the local NBC affiliate (http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Housing-Frequent-Users-Saves-City-Millions-146918745.html):

The initiative housed 30 homeless people in San Diego who were estimated to be costing taxpayers over $11 million in public resources, according to data from the project.


The participants on average absorbed nearly $318,000 before entering the program, estimated in emergency room visits, ambulance transports, in-patient medical stays, arrests and jail days. Those who enrolled were often disabled and continuously homeless for over a year.


After almost a year of being in the program, analysts estimated that the cost of supporting the average participant was about $97,400.


Overall, the project resulted in a nearly 70 percent reduction in costs to taxpayers, the analysts said.
Not every homeless person needs long-term supportive housing. Most homelessness is temporary and transitional, so for them, short-term supports are adequate. But for a small number of chronic homeless - particularly frequent flyers in local jails who may be arrested dozens of times on petty charges - the cost-benefit analysis of business as usual often reaches absurdist proportions.


The problem with such programs is that the costs of homelessness are spread out among many entities - the city, county, state, Medicaid, local hospitals, etc. - and not all those will pay into supportive housing. So the societal cost is tremendous but there is a free-rider problem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem) among institutions that would see costs reduced. On paper, taxpayers overall benefit tremendously. But in practice, when one arm of government pays the freight, the savings are so spread out that that entity may not see a reduction in their own bottom line.


That's why I think it's smart to target a handful of the most expensive, chronic homeless folks for a pilot, identifying people for whom the economics of supportive housing come out positive even for the government entity ponying up the bucks. This is not a problem which may be resolved with a snap of a finger. I'd like to see more Texas cities and counties take on this topic in the same way San Diego did: Start small, demonstrate the concept, and build on success. (Fort Worth has begun to embrace supportive housing (http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2008/08/fort-worth-seeks-to-reduce-homelessness.html), but in Texas they're an outlier.) Often government does nothing on homelessness - or relegates the issue to law enforcement - because doing everything needed would be so expensive that policymakers become paralyzed. In that context, chipping away at the issue around the edges is preferable to throwing up one's hands and simply declaring nothing can be done, or worse, criminalizing homelessness instead of focusing on reducing it.
http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2012/04/huge-savings-from-supportive-housing.html

[CosmicCowboy]

I know crime went way up in the area around my office after they built Haven for the Hopeless. My yard gets hit weekly and my truck has been hit twice.

[LnGrrrR]

I know crime went way up in the area around my office after they built Haven for the Hopeless. My yard gets hit weekly and my truck has been hit twice.

Yeah, why won't they just kill all these homeless people off already? Or at least keep them to a single parking lot, so I wouldn't have to see them.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

I guess Lunger doesn't like homeless people. Pretty sad.

[CosmicCowboy]

Yeah, why won't they just kill all these homeless people off already? Or at least keep them to a single parking lot, so I wouldn't have to see them.

Or at least put up a big fence around them.

Seriously, it's not so funny when you are the one getting robbed.

[Wild Cobra]

I know crime went way up in the area around my office after they built Haven for the Hopeless. My yard gets hit weekly and my truck has been hit twice.
Time to give Zimmerman a job as a security guard.

[Wild Cobra]

Or at least put up a big fence around them.

Seriously, it's not so funny when you are the one getting robbed.
I wonder if there is a legal ground to sue the city for the change in robberies in the area?

[ElNono]

Sue them for what?

[ElNono]

I know crime went way up in the area around my office after they built Haven for the Hopeless. My yard gets hit weekly and my truck has been hit twice.

How much it has gone up?

[LnGrrrR]

Or at least put up a big fence around them.

Seriously, it's not so funny when you are the one getting robbed.

Understood, but there's really no good answer for the homeless problem. However, I do think the "Haven for the Homeless" idea is a better answer than "keep them on the streets".

[CosmicCowboy]

I don't understand why they can't move them to a more country setting and let them have gardens etc. They are already providing them food, shelter, and medical treatment. Get them out of that urban street trash cycle/environment...

[CosmicCowboy]

How much it has gone up?

Probably doubled at least.

[CosmicCowboy]

Back in February a cocksucker broke into my truck in broad daylight, stole dirty clothes, a dirty rodeo jacket, my "ranch" bankbag out of my console that had receipts, keys, paint codes, etc. in it (no money), a cutco skinning knife, a laser pointer and a checkbook that he then went right around the corner to Ace Check Express and forged a $200 check written to himself.

Police don't give a shit and they know it. Cocksucker used his real name and SS# to cash the check and the police didn't do a fucking thing about it.

[CosmicCowboy]

Motherfucker is gonna be the baddest MF on the block with that cutco sheath knife...it was so sharp you could split hairs with it...unless he meets up with a Zimmerman with a 9mm.

[CosmicCowboy]

If anybody wants to steal that cocksuckers identity his name is Gilbert Caldera and his SS# is 466-24-2794. It checks out...it's real

[clambake]

Time to give Zimmerman a job as a security guard.

how could he do that? some kinda work release program? of course, he couldn't legally have a gun.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Back in February a cocksucker broke into my truck in broad daylight, stole dirty clothes, a dirty rodeo jacket, my "ranch" bankbag out of my console that had receipts, keys, paint codes, etc. in it (no money), a cutco skinning knife, a laser pointer and a checkbook that he then went right around the corner to Ace Check Express and forged a $200 check written to himself.

Police don't give a shit and they know it. Cocksucker used his real name and SS# to cash the check and the police didn't do a fucking thing about it.

Was it SAPD? My house got broken into and they stole all my electronics and my gf's jewelry. My neighbor said he saw the kids down the street climbing through the window with my shit. I called the law; they took a police report and left. Nothing was ever done. After a few days they had pawned all my shit or whatever. I wasn't about to go down there brandishing a gun and throwing a hissy bit I did always kind of hope they would try it again.

Ever since then, I have pretty much hated the police.

[spursncowboys]

Understood, but there's really no good answer for the homeless problem. However, I do think the "Haven for the Homeless" idea is a better answer than "keep them on the streets".

WHen you are looking for a place to live, would that deter you to live in a house right next to one?

[CosmicCowboy]

Was it SAPD? My house got broken into and they stole all my electronics and my gf's jewelry. My neighbor said he saw the kids down the street climbing through the window with my shit. I called the law; they took a police report and left. Nothing was ever done. After a few days they had pawned all my shit or whatever. I wasn't about to go down there brandishing a gun and throwing a hissy bit I did always kind of hope they would try it again.

Ever since then, I have pretty much hated the police.

:lmao

Why hate the police?

Why didn't you hate the people you knew stole your stuff?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

:lmao

Why hate the police?

Why didn't you hate the people you knew stole your stuff?

I just told you that I was hoping they would try again. Now think why that would be the case? I also have harrassed by police in other incidents. In short no cop has ever done any good thing for me even when I needed it.

[LnGrrrR]

WHen you are looking for a place to live, would that deter you to live in a house right next to one?

Not sure. Probably. Like I said, there's not any easy answers I can see.

[jack sommerset]

Numbers on homeless is crazy high. We all should say a prayer for them tonight. I have no idea how to help out over 500,000 of them. We were in DC last week and saw tons of them sleeping on concrete outside building housing our national treasures and where our leaders run the country. you would think if there was a way to shelter the homeless that place would be the first to figure it out, you should think that. God bless

[Drachen]

:lmao

Why hate the police?

Why didn't you hate the people you knew stole your stuff?

You pay the police to help out in such situations. They don't. Fuzzy is probably upset that the police are stealing money from her.

[ElNono]

Back in February a cocksucker broke into my truck in broad daylight, stole dirty clothes, a dirty rodeo jacket, my "ranch" bankbag out of my console that had receipts, keys, paint codes, etc. in it (no money), a cutco skinning knife, a laser pointer and a checkbook that he then went right around the corner to Ace Check Express and forged a $200 check written to himself.

Police don't give a shit and they know it. Cocksucker used his real name and SS# to cash the check and the police didn't do a fucking thing about it.

And you know this guy is tied to "Haven for the Hopeless" how?

[spursncowboys]

My question would be: is this the govt responsibiliity? Take away the mentally challenged and disabled homeless, which there are alot. Is it the govt. responsibility to support an adult who chose his style of living? If government made a law where a pill made everyone more productive and unable to commit crimes. After an amount of time, The results show that the entire society is better off. Crime is at its lowest and everyone is more beneficial. Would that be ok? Do the ends justify the means?

In that same thinking, would annihilation of an entire country because every generation is trained and raised to harm Americans, would that be acceptable too?

[Drachen]

And you know this guy is tied to "Haven for the Hopeless" how?

I don't think he does, he just said that his experience with crime has increased dramatically since Haven for hope opened.

[boutons_deux]

"adult who chose his style of living"

this year's wave of foreclosures includes millions on prime mortgages where one or both breadwinners lost their jobs or were forced to take jobs paying well below their preceding jobs.

People are losing their ability to house themselves due to America (the 1%) failing to provide a humane society where even the poorest can live somewhere.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Schizophrenics, bipolars, and severe depressives make up a large quantity of the homeless as do the disabled. There are a lot of verious substance abusers and these groups are not mutually exclusive. Perhaps we should kill half and feed them to the other half?

[spursncowboys]

I need to remind myself that there are idiots on the internet who would rather say nonsense than actually build on a conversation.

[clambake]

In that same thinking, would annihilation of an entire country because every generation is trained and raised to harm Americans, would that be acceptable too?

americas finest.

[TheSullyMonster]

I don't understand why they can't move them to a more country setting and let them have gardens etc. They are already providing them food, shelter, and medical treatment. Get them out of that urban street trash cycle/environment...

Where would they get a job? Go to school, etc?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

you're an idiot. Grow up

I was just trying to describe the demographic. And then I took an extension of your altruism. I'm also listening to old Dice Clay albums.

[Wild Cobra]

I don't think he does, he just said that his experience with crime has increased dramatically since Haven for hope opened.
It's a normal pattern in most places when you gather certain types of people in one place. Criminal activity also seems to follow public transit rail systems.

[spursncowboys]

Where would they get a job? Go to school, etc?

Are you saying that the government has that answer? Are you saying that the actually person cannot decide that? That the lack of a decision is still a decision.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Are you saying that the government has that answer? Are you saying that the actually person cannot decide that? That the lack of a decision is still a decision.

And thus my commentary on mental illness. Severe schizophrenics and bipolar 1's, and borderline depressives don't have the ability of 'choice.'

[spursncowboys]

Correct Fuzzy. Now what about the others.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Correct Fuzzy. Now what about the others.

We kill them and feed them to the other half. its their choice or lack of choice so fuck em right?

[Wild Cobra]

SVpN312hYgU

[ElNono]

I need to remind myself that there are idiots on the internet who would rather say nonsense than actually build on a conversation.

You just described your preceding post.

[spursncowboys]

You just described your preceding post.

me

Correct Fuzzy. Now what about the others.

???????????

You seem to be sticking up for a fellow lib over making sense. congrats.

[spursncowboys]

but this one made your cut of non idiotic comments:

We kill them and feed them to the other half. its their choice or lack of choice so fuck em right?

:lmao

[FuzzyLumpkins]

but this one made your cut of non idiotic comments:


:lmao

I was being facetious. Seeing that the rest are mostly drunks and drug addicts, i would decriminalize drugs and make it a medical issue. i certainly wouldn't just say, oh well they asked for it, and ignore the problem.

[spursncowboys]

You have all the answers. How would you fund this? Other people's money?

[boutons_deux]

snc has no objection to funding the MIC and resource imperialism with "other people's money", but is full of umbrage against from trying to stop Human-Americans from rotting to death.

[TheSullyMonster]

Are you saying that the government has that answer? Are you saying that the actually person cannot decide that? That the lack of a decision is still a decision.

I'm saying putting (mostly) unemployed people in an environment with little economic or educational opportunity may not be terribly helpful.

Unless, of course, you're just trying to ignore the problems of homelessness and poverty.

[CosmicCowboy]

I'm saying putting (mostly) unemployed people in an environment with little economic or educational opportunity may not be terribly helpful.

Unless, of course, you're just trying to ignore the problems of homelessness and poverty.

I thought we were talking about the chronically homeless (see the OP). They don't want or can't handle the responsibility of taking care of themselves via education and economic opportunity.

[Yonivore]

I haven't read the thread but, here's the problem I see with these types of programs.

Just like Section 8 housing, if the digs are better than those being lived in by people other than the "chronically homeless," the numbers of "chronically homeless" will rise until the supportive housing program is no longer solvent and becomes a property-value wrecking boondoggle like Section 8 housing.

Hell, I know if I were living in a run-down shack on the wrong side of the tracks and saw my city plucking the homeless off the street and putting them up in nice apartments or houses, I'd figure out how to qualify as "chronically homeless" pretty damn quick.

My two-cents worth.

[ChumpDumper]

I haven't read the thread

[CosmicCowboy]

According to the Haven for the Hopeless website, 60% of the homeless there either have severe substance abuse issues or mental illness.

[Winehole23]

so then, addicted and crazy people should be frequent fliers at city jails at great public expense, because they do not deserve the help

[clambake]

so then, addicted and crazy people should be frequent fliers at city jails at great public expense, because they do not deserve the help

sure they do. just nimby

[CosmicCowboy]

so then, addicted and crazy people should be frequent fliers at city jails at great public expense, because they do not deserve the help

Who said that? I'm saying if they are hopeless and we are going to be supporting them anyway then isolate them in a rural dormitory style facility and out of the urban environment. Fuck...give them alcohol/drugs if that's what it takes to keep them there. Have a microbrewery and pot greenhouses. Keep em loaded and happy and not out ripping people off so they can feed their demons.

[ChumpDumper]

Whatever man. Everyone else is going to make themselves mentally ill so they can get that sweet gubment housing.

[Blake]

so then, addicted and crazy people should be frequent fliers at city jails at great public expense, because they do not deserve the help

Your op linked another good grits piece:

http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2008/08/fort-worth-seeks-to-reduce-homelessness.html?m=1

Refreshing to see a city like Ft Worth think and act outside the fiscal box instead of simply throwing more cash at police enforcement.

Fwiw, the Directions Home project link claims that values of properties nearest the project housing steadily rose (2000-2008 if I read it correctly)

http://fortworthtexas.gov/homelessness/

[Winehole23]

Fuck...give them alcohol/drugs if that's what it takes to keep them there. Have a microbrewery and pot greenhouses. Keep em loaded and happy and not out ripping people off so they can feed their demons.Socialism! :lol:toast

[Winehole23]

@CC :

my point was implicitly that we are wasting a lot of money by allowing local jails to be the service of first resort for people with addiction and mental health problems.

jail triage for mental health issues is wasteful and counterproductive...

[Winehole23]

Your op linked another good grits piece:

http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2008/08/fort-worth-seeks-to-reduce-homelessness.html?m=1

Refreshing to see a city like Ft Worth think and act outside the fiscal box instead of simply throwing more cash at police enforcement.

Fwiw, the Directions Home project link claims that values of properties nearest the project housing steadily rose (2000-2008 if I read it correctly)

http://fortworthtexas.gov/homelessness/Thanks for noticing. So few posters descend to the level of posted and available details. I thought it was pretty cool too.

[Winehole23]

The sleeping-in-public ban has been around long enough that's it's not often discussed, but it was controversial when it was implemented in the early 1990s and sparked a class action lawsuit by Dallas' homeless. They scored an initial victory in 1994, when a federal judge forbade Dallas police from enforcing the ban, reasoning that, because shelter space is limited, and because human beings need sleep, the measure amounted to cruel and unusual punishment.


The decision was reversed on appeal, although not because the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit found the measure constitutional. Since none of the tickets or arrests made under the law ever led to convictions, the homeless plaintiffs didn't have standing to bring their case (http://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions%5Cpub%5C94/94-10875.CV0.wpd.pdf).


In other words, Dallas is free to arrest people for sleeping in public all it wants so long as it doesn't actually prosecute them. Which is what appears to happening every morning downtown.

http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2014/02/dallas_police_are_rounding_up.php#more

[RandomGuy]

http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2014/02/dallas_police_are_rounding_up.php#more

Talk about spending a lot of money not to solve a problem.

[Winehole23]

It's cheaper to give homeless men and women a permanent place to live than to leave them on the streets.


That’s according to a study of an apartment complex for formerly homeless people in Charlotte, N.C., that found drastic savings on health care costs and incarceration.


Moore Place houses 85 chronically homeless adults, and was the subject of a study by the University of North Carolina Charlotte released on Monday. The study found that, in its first year, Moore Place tenants saved $1.8 million in health care costs, with 447 fewer emergency room visits (a 78 percent reduction) and 372 fewer days in the hospital (a 79 percent reduction).


The tenants also spent 84 percent fewer days in jail, with a 78 percent drop in arrests.http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/25/housing-first-homeless-charlotte_n_5022628.html

[Winehole23]

board conservatives: are you for or against spending $$$ wisely to save even more?

[boutons_deux]

board conservatives: are you for or against spending $$$ wisely to save even more?

God, Ayn Rand, and fatass Christians want these losers to be homeless.

[Winehole23]

I wasn't talking to you, silly.

[Winehole23]

I already knew what you would say.

[SnakeBoy]

board conservatives: are you for or against spending $$$ wisely to save even more?

Are those the only choices?

[Winehole23]

fire away. spending a little money to save even more money down the line seems like a no brainer to me.

[SnakeBoy]

fire away. spending a little money to save even more money down the line seems like a no brainer to me.

Well again, if doing what's cheapest is the only choice then yes this is a no brainer. My conservative view is that while we have an obligation to help those who cannot help themselves we should do so with the intention of helping those people become productive members of society rather than simply creating a dependent class because it is the cheapest option.

In the case of the chronically homeless, in most cases, that will involve substance abuse treatment combined with long term mental health treatment followed by education/job training. That's not going to be cheap.

[Winehole23]

seems reasonable. treatment isn't cheap for sure. might be cheaper than frequent/long term incarceration and uninsured hospital stays.

[Winehole23]

of course, not all chronically homeless people are drug dependent or mentally ill, but these are significant factors.

[boutons_deux]

Who are homeless veterans?

The U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) states that the nation’s homeless veterans are predominantly male, with roughly 8% being female. The majority are single; live in urban areas; and suffer from mental illness, alcohol and/or substance abuse, or co-occurring disorders. About 12% of the adult homeless population are veterans.

Roughly 40% of all homeless veterans are African American or Hispanic, despite only accounting for 10.4% and 3.4% of the U.S. veteran population, respectively.

Homeless veterans are younger on average than the total veteran population. Approximately 9% are between the ages of 18 and 30, and 41% are between the ages of 31 and 50. Conversely, only 5% of all veterans are between the ages of 18 and 30, and less than 23% are between 31 and 50.

America’s homeless veterans have served in World War II, the Korean War, Cold War, Vietnam War, Grenada, Panama, Lebanon, Persian Gulf War, Afghanistan and Iraq (OEF/OIF), and the military’s anti-drug cultivation efforts in South America. Nearly half of homeless veterans served during the Vietnam era. Two-thirds served our country for at least three years, and one-third were stationed in a war zone.

About 1.4 million other veterans, meanwhile, are considered at risk of homelessness due to poverty, lack of support networks, and dismal living conditions in overcrowded or substandard housing.

http://nchv.org/index.php/news/media/background_and_statistics/

hmm, seems like "the military teaches you how to be a man" is bullshit. It's an age old problem, what to do with warriors after the war.