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FuzzyLumpkins
04-22-2012, 04:10 AM
If Health Insurance Mandates Are Unconstitutional, Why Did the Founding Fathers Back Them?

In making the legal case against Obamacare’s individual mandate, challengers have argued that the framers of our Constitution would certainly have found such a measure to be unconstitutional. Nevermind that nothing in the text or history of the Constitution’s Commerce Clause indicates that Congress cannot mandate commercial purchases. The framers, challengers have claimed, thought a constitutional ban on purchase mandates was too “obvious” to mention. Their core basis for this claim is that purchase mandates are unprecedented, which they say would not be the case if it was understood this power existed.

But there’s a major problem with this line of argument: It just isn’t true. The founding fathers, it turns out, passed several mandates of their own. In 1790, the very first Congress—which incidentally included 20 framers—passed a law that included a mandate: namely, a requirement that ship owners buy medical insurance for their seamen. This law was then signed by another framer: President George Washington. That’s right, the father of our country had no difficulty imposing a health insurance mandate.

That’s not all. In 1792, a Congress with 17 framers passed another statute that required all able-bodied men to buy firearms. Yes, we used to have not only a right to bear arms, but a federal duty to buy them. Four framers voted against this bill, but the others did not, and it was also signed by Washington. Some tried to repeal this gun purchase mandate on the grounds it was too onerous, but only one framer voted to repeal it.

Six years later, in 1798, Congress addressed the problem that the employer mandate to buy medical insurance for seamen covered drugs and physician services but not hospital stays. And you know what this Congress, with five framers serving in it, did? It enacted a federal law requiring the seamen to buy hospital insurance for themselves. That’s right, Congress enacted an individual mandate requiring the purchase of health insurance. And this act was signed by another founder, President John Adams.

Not only did most framers support these federal mandates to buy firearms and health insurance, but there is no evidence that any of the few framers who voted against these mandates ever objected on constitutional grounds. Presumably one would have done so if there was some unstated original understanding that such federal mandates were unconstitutional. Moreover, no one thought these past purchase mandates were problematic enough to challenge legally.

True, one could try to distinguish these other federal mandates from the Affordable Care Act mandate. One could argue that the laws for seamen and ship owners mandated purchases from people who were already engaged in some commerce. But that is no less true of everyone subject to the health-insurance mandate: Indeed, virtually all of us get some health care every five years, and the few exceptions could hardly justify invalidating all applications of the statute. One could also argue (as the challengers did) that activity in the health care market isn’t enough to justify a purchase mandate in the separate health insurance market. But the early mandates required shippers and seamen to buy health insurance without showing they were active in any market for health insurance or even health care, which was far more rare back then.

Nor do any of these attempted distinctions explain away the mandate to buy guns, which was not limited to persons engaged in commerce. One might try the different distinction that the gun purchase mandate was adopted under the militia clause rather than the commerce clause. But that misses the point: This precedent (like the others) disproves the challengers’ claim that the framers had some general unspoken understanding against purchase mandates.

In oral arguments before the court two weeks ago, the challengers also argued that the health insurance mandate was not “proper” in a way that allows it to be justified under the Necessary and Proper Clause. These precedents rebut that claim because they indicate that the framers thought not just purchase mandates but medical insurance mandates were perfectly proper indeed.

Einer Elhauge is a professor at Harvard Law School. He joined an amicus brief supporting the constitutionality of the mandate.

Correction: This article originally identified John Adams as a framer. It should have identified him as a founder, since he was not at the constitutional convention. We regret the error.

http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/102620/individual-mandate-history-affordable-care-act

FuzzyLumpkins
04-22-2012, 04:12 AM
A Further Response to Critics on the Founding Fathers and Insurance Mandates

Einer Elhauge

Since I wrote last week about the remarkable eighteenth-century precedents for a health insurance mandate, several supporters of the challenge to Obamacare have attempted to downplay the relevance of those early mandates for today’s case. The latest is Professor Phillip Hamburger, who argues that those early statutes imposing health insurance mandates on private commercial shipowners and seamen didn’t arise under the Commerce Clause; instead, he claims, they were justified under the power to provide for the Navy because such health mandates helped ensure “a large supply of healthy seamen” for the Navy to draft in the event of war.

This argument is certainly creative, but the connection between regulating private commercial activities and the Navy power is unconvincing. By that logic, one could equally say that the Obamacare mandate is justified because it helps ensure a large supply of healthy people to draft into the Army in the event of war. Nor does his Navy clause argument seem to fit the eighteenth-century statutes, which were replete with provisions requiring written labor contracts on key terms, regulating when wages had to be paid, and providing hospital care for disabled seamen even if they were no longer able to serve—none of which were relevant to ensuring a supply of healthy seamen to draft for war.

In any event, Hamburger’s claim conflicts with Supreme Court case law, which as I have shown, does indeed hold that federal statutes regulating the duties of shipowners and seamen arose under the Commerce Clause. In contrast, I am unable to find any case holding that Congress’ power to impose duties on private commercial shipowners and seamen arose under the Navy Clause.

Remember the context: The challengers are trying to infer a constitutional ban from purported silence because their theory lacks any affirmative support in the text, history, or case law. The constitutional text does not support the challengers’ argument because, as conservative Judge Silberman held, 1780s dictionary definitions of “regulate” indicate that the plain meaning of the text giving Congress the power to “regulate commerce” does include a power to mandate purchases. Nor did any framer state that they thought the Constitution prohibited purchase mandates or any prior case so hold.

Bereft of such support, the challenge to Obamacare rests on the claim that the unprecedented nature of purchase mandates shows they were so wholly alien to the framers that they obviously would have wanted to ban them. Trying to infer a constitutional ban from a lack of precedent is dubious to begin with, since the Constitution has no anti-innovation clause, and the law presumes Congressional Acts are constitutional. But, if one is going to use that dubious method, one cannot exclude analogous precedents based on strained or technical distinctions.

Even if you do believe that these early mandates were justified under clauses other than the Commerce Clause, they demonstrate that the framers clearly thought purchase mandates were a “proper” means of executing constitutional powers. That’s enough to show that the framers would hardly have been horrified at the notion of mandating purchases—and enough to validate the Obamacare mandate under the Necessary and Proper Clause.

Einer Elhauge is a professor at Harvard Law School. He joined an amicus brief supporting the constitutionality of the mandate.

http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/102840/health-insurance-individual-mandate-obamacare-constitutionality-framers

boutons_deux
04-22-2012, 08:39 AM
Along with Citizens United, the mandate decision is another opportunity for the extreme right-wing activist hacks to kill any remaining respect of 10Ms of Americans for SCOTUS as fair and apolitical.

spursncowboys
04-22-2012, 09:40 AM
I guess the Alien & Sedition Act should be brought back too.

boutons_deux
04-22-2012, 10:00 AM
"The Sedition Act (officially An Act in Addition to the Act Entitled "An Act for the Punishment of Certain Crimes against the United States"; ch. 74, 1 Stat. 596) made it a crime to publish "false, scandalous, and malicious writing" against the government or certain officials."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_Sedition_Act

The Fox Repug "false, scandalous and malicious" Propaganda network is happy it expired.

ChumpDumper
04-22-2012, 10:02 AM
I guess the Alien & Sedition Act should be brought back too.That's amazingly weak, even for you.

spursncowboys
04-22-2012, 10:05 AM
This whole premise is weak.

spursncowboys
04-22-2012, 10:07 AM
Saying that if you want to be a ship owner, then you must buy insurance is the same as if you drive a car you have to buy car insurance. Not that everyone must buy health insurance. Fail

spursncowboys
04-22-2012, 10:08 AM
Yikes. The logic in this article is flaccid. There is a reason this wasn't argued in front of the court for sure.
When it comes to the defense of the country, the government does anything it wants. Full stop. That can include making people buy guys. You know, "well regulated militia" and all.
Making a seaman buy insurance, as NR hits on, regulates ACTIVITY, not INACTIVITY. If you don't want to buy it, then don't become a seaman.
What is unprecedented in ACA is that it regulates INACTIVITY, and in the process requires someone just existing to buy something from a PRIVATE entity even if they don't need it.
It is called unprecedented because it is unprecedented.
WA state is one of 2 states that requires naturopathy as part of all health care plans. Take ACA and wind it forward 20 years. Every special interest group will be lobbying to get their "therapy" covered as part of ACA because it will be enormous windfall for their member. It will eventually devolve into a massive plan that requires everyone to buy coverage NOT just for basic medical, but it will grow to include massage therapy, aromatherapy and anything that can be shown to provide even a modest benefit to health.
And the consumer will be forced to buy all this. Whether they want it or not.
No thanks.
04/13/2012 - 12:52pm EDT |
from a commenter on op

spursncowboys
04-22-2012, 10:11 AM
Are both of these arguments before Marbury v. Madison?

boutons_deux
04-22-2012, 10:21 AM
"it will grow to include massage therapy, aromatherapy and anything that can be shown to provide even a modest benefit to health.
And the consumer will be forced to buy all this"

total bullshit.

forcing people to buy health insurance is not forcing them to buy any specific health treatment.

BigPharma and its FDA enforcer will never allow generic phyto-chemicals to be covered by health insurance.

BigPharma/FDA policy:

One can't cite any scientific studies, no matter how convincing, effective, and/or numerous, showing benefits of phyto-chemicals to support your phyto-chemical product, because if it has benefits, it must be a drug and must be regulated by FDA.

However, FDA allows BigFood to claim heavily processed, unregulated food-like substances like Cherios may reduce cholesterol (the cholesterol business itself being a huge scam).

Stringer_Bell
04-22-2012, 12:11 PM
Saying that if you want to be a ship owner, then you must buy insurance is the same as if you drive a car you have to buy car insurance. Not that everyone must buy health insurance. Fail

Just keep in mind, corporations are people too. And our founding fathers totally knew it!

spursncowboys
04-22-2012, 01:38 PM
stringer. But activity as opposed to inactivity.

George Gervin's Afro
04-22-2012, 01:50 PM
So now we have conservatives who are ok for paying for other people's healthcare


Bizarro world

Stringer_Bell
04-22-2012, 11:42 PM
Obviously, the Founding Fathers were for Health Insurance Mandates before they were against them...obviously...

FuzzyLumpkins
04-23-2012, 12:09 AM
Are both of these arguments before Marbury v. Madison?

That the people that created our government and wrote the Constitution enacted such things subsumes that. Or are you saying they wrote and passed the Constitution but then contravened it?

The comment on the Alien and Sedition Act is just ad hominem.

Further if its okay to mandate a segment of the population why is it not okay to do it to the whole. By that reasoning you could just say that all people that live in cities or use health care at any point in their lives are compelled.

If anything if its okay to do it to a segment then it should be acceptable to the whole considering the notion of equal protection. That reciprocity should work both ways.

As for the comment from the comments section you posted, the logic is flawed. there were penalties and thus regulation for those seaman that were not afforded health insurance. Thus inactivity was regulated as well.

The slippery slope argument is just fearmongering.

Winehole23
04-23-2012, 01:35 AM
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5786438&postcount=77

Wild Cobra Kai
04-23-2012, 01:43 AM
I guess the Alien & Sedition Act should be brought back too.

It has been in the form of the Patriot Act, tbh.

TeyshaBlue
04-23-2012, 09:27 AM
That the people that created our government and wrote the Constitution enacted such things subsumes that. Or are you saying they wrote and passed the Constitution but then contravened it?

The comment on the Alien and Sedition Act is just ad hominem.

Further if its okay to mandate a segment of the population why is it not okay to do it to the whole. By that reasoning you could just say that all people that live in cities or use health care at any point in their lives are compelled.

If anything if its okay to do it to a segment then it should be acceptable to the whole considering the notion of equal protection. That reciprocity should work both ways.

As for the comment from the comments section you posted, the logic is flawed. there were penalties and thus regulation for those seaman that were not afforded health insurance. Thus inactivity was regulated as well.

The slippery slope argument is just fearmongering.

Still appears to be workman issues. proto-OSHA?

Blake
04-23-2012, 09:52 AM
from a commenter on op

What about the requirement that all able bodied men purchase guns?

RandomGuy
04-23-2012, 12:21 PM
I guess the Alien & Sedition Act should be brought back too.

Maybe the founding fathers can explain gas prices.

RandomGuy
04-23-2012, 12:25 PM
Still appears to be workman issues. proto-OSHA?

Something like that.

This whole thing to me smacks of the stupidity involved when one side or another wants to play the "founding fathers" card, as if that proves diddley-squat, or means much two hundred and fifty years later.

We need a new constitutional convention. The one we have now is a ramshackle mess, cobbled together incoherently by people long dead who wouldn't recognize the country they started two centuries ago.

Yeah, I went there.

FuzzyLumpkins
04-23-2012, 03:31 PM
Still appears to be workman issues. proto-OSHA?

Omni-OSHA?

FuzzyLumpkins
04-23-2012, 03:33 PM
Something like that.

This whole thing to me smacks of the stupidity involved when one side or another wants to play the "founding fathers" card, as if that proves diddley-squat, or means much two hundred and fifty years later.

We need a new constitutional convention. The one we have now is a ramshackle mess, cobbled together incoherently by people long dead who wouldn't recognize the country they started two centuries ago.

Yeah, I went there.

Its going to take a major catastrophe, revolution or independent major cultural change for that to happen. Its easier to amend the Constitution

Winehole23
04-23-2012, 03:39 PM
hope so