Flopping

[YODA]

Found this article and thought we should realy think about this in more detail.
David Stern stated in this interview, " We should be giving out Oscars instead on NBA tropys". He believes something needs to be done about the flopping situation.

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2012/story/_/id/7926130/2012-nba-playoffs-commissioner-david-stern-says-thinks-flopping-legitimate-concern

Now, here are my thoughts on flopping. We need to think about why flopping ever started in the NBA. I believe its because fouls are so seldom called on the offensive player unless its absolutly obvious, which gives a huge advantage to the offensive players. Over the years, players have learned that instead of fighting through the foul and moving on, they could inflate or exagerate the fouls by acting or showing off more of how the offensive created a foul to show the Refs. Thus, a new world of flopping. Bottom line, it worked. Refs would have to call the foul even though they knew it was exagerated due to the contact. Why would anyone stop flopping if you can create fouls going the other direction??

Refs have been letting alot of physical play go for a long time and its nothing new. Back in the 80's, it was out of control. The pistons were very well known for it and it helped them win some championships. In my opinion, back in the 70's the game was more finess and you would never see the amount of physical play as today. Refs at that time never let it get out of control.

As Far as Refs are concerened, they dont really want to be calling fouls all game long too. The people boo you, the players hate the slow play and noone wants to see 50 free throws attempted in a game.

The solution?? Just like little kids, refs have to teach players by example that they are not going to allow the physical play or offense or defense. I think if they did this, we would see alot less of the hard physical play and more athlethic play, which is what everyone wants to see. Problem is, refs have learned that the playoffs are more physical then the regular season and let a lot of physical play go uncalled in the playoffs. If you saw any of the Clips abd Grizz series, you know what Im talking about. Refs have to decide between calling ticky tack fouls that slow down the game and fouls that are to hard. What a job.

Anyone else have ideas how we can stop flopping?

[romain.star]

IMO, flopping entered the league with the massive arrival of non anglo-saxon foreign players (esp. players from ex-Yougoslavia, Spain and South America)

As to how can we stop flopping... what about a ''Flopping Commission'' whose task would be to analyse games after the facts and to give floppers multi-game bans

[Solid D]

http://www.ussoccer.com/~/media/60AE11FBFFA74D90A0774A69CE34483E.ashx?w=401&h=301

[timvp]

The Spurs really don't flop that much any more. Ginobili will occasionally flail but that happens less and less as the years go by. Most of his flopping happens on defense but it's more about accentuating legitimate contact, tbh. Duncan doesn't use that pull-through move much anymore since they stopped giving him that call. Ginobili and Duncan will whine after non-calls but they rarely if ever whine after a flop.

Parker is the worst flopper I've ever seen. His go-to move is to touch his lip a couple time and pretend he's bleeding. That's about the extent of his flopping.

Bonner flops a lot when going for defensive boards but the refs never call it anyways. He probably has a 100-to-1 flop to call ratio.

Splitter was the king of flops in Europe but he doesn't flop very much in the NBA. Especially this season.

Kawhi doesn't flop. Green rarely. Neal doesn't play defense or get to the line so there's no flopping involved in his game. Diaw doesn't flop much. Jack will flail at times and yell at the ref but not too often. Blair doesn't flop.

If the NBA makes it a point to try to crack down on flopping, the Spurs are pretty safe. The 2005 Spurs might have been in trouble but these Spurs play pretty straight-up.

[Solid D]

There are 5 or 6 players in the NBA who are irritating floppers. This group does not include voice floppers like TP and Pau. Their flops are strategic, often crafty, but none-the-less annoying and cuts into the fabric of the purity of the game.

They are: Chris Paul, Andrew Bogut, Anderson Varejao, Reggie Evans , JJ Barea and Derek Fisher.

Chauncey Billups, Dwyane Wade, Manu and Dirk Nowitzki are four of the craftier floppers and at key points in games, but they're less annoying to me.

One thing to watch in this Clippers-Spurs series is Evans. He is super smart and will pull a player's arm into his body, then suddenly throw the arm off of him, flail and rock his head back. Very tricky.

[vander]

You are an ignorant if you believe foreign players brought the flopping. That's bullshit. Players before Divac were flopping: Laimbeer, Rodman, Ainge, Stockton, to say a few. You fail

nah, it was brought over by players from soccer countries

[JR3]

We will definitely be out flopped by the clippers. Chris Paul leads the flops and has taught blake griffen almost everything he knows about flopping.

[BlairForceDejuan]

lol @ the whack ass helicopter flop

Any man with any ounce of integrity would be too embarrassed and ashamed to do that. cpphaggot3, no shame.


I think Stern will be FORCED to have to do something about flopping in the next 5 years, but don't kid yourself. He doesn't give a shit. if he did he'd do something about it.

[Spurminator]

The Hack-a-Flopper series. Basketball purists are gonna have a field day with this one. :lol

[GSH]

The Spurs really don't flop that much any more. Ginobili will occasionally flail but that happens less and less as the years go by.

If the NBA makes it a point to try to crack down on flopping, the Spurs are pretty safe. The 2005 Spurs might have been in trouble but these Spurs play pretty straight-up.


You know what else they don't do a lot of anymore? Bitching at the referees over calls and no-calls. I watched that last Laker-Nugget game the other night, and I think the Lakers bitched at every single whistle for an entire game. I may have missed one or two, but I started really paying attention to it, and while I was watching they never missed a single one.

The Spurs were labeled as being the worst about whining to the refs. But I never saw them come close to what the Lakers were like in that game. If they're going to look at flopping, I would suggest that they re-visit arguing with the refs, too.

[rr2418]

I remember Magic Johnson flopping. I know he would drive the lane and when the defender swiped at the ball, Magic would fling his arms out to the side to let the refs know he had been fouled. And then he would give them THAT LOOK! :lol

[Sec24Row7]

I wonder if Reggie and Blake will try to sell contact when we intentionally try to foul them.

ROFL

[YODA]

lots of talk and very few ideas on how to fix flopping.

[vander]

lots of talk and very few ideas on how to fix flopping.

assign technical fouls after reviewing game film. after a few techs, guys start getting suspended right?

although, it'll still be Stern's NBA and it'll be Stern's guys reviewing the film, so the star players in big markets will still get away with it...

[Obstructed_View]

Actually, Stern wasn't concerned about flopping, but the person interviewing him kept it up. He said that he brought it up to the rules committee a few years ago and they balked at it.

[Rob in Converse]

lots of talk and very few ideas on how to fix flopping.

We all know how to fix it.
Refs need to call fouls WHEN THEY SEE THEM (no star treatment).
And don't call what they DON'T see (flailing arms and head snaps don't mean fouls happened).:nope

Of course, neither of these will ever happen...:bang

[PublicOption]

Well if the refs called the games like they used to, players wouldn't have to flop.

How do you think teams avg. 110pts a game in the late 70's early 80's.

[PublicOption]

We all know how to fix it.
Refs need to call fouls WHEN THEY SEE THEM (no star treatment).
And don't call what they DON'T see (flailing arms and head snaps don't mean fouls happened).:nope

Of course, neither of these will ever happen...:bang


..............also very true. If it weren't for flopping the league wouldn't be able to control who the "stars" would be.

[Obstructed_View]

Well if the refs called the games like they used to, players wouldn't have to flop.

How do you think teams avg. 110pts a game in the late 70's early 80's.

They didn't shoot threes.

[benstanfield]

Honestly I'm not the type of person that gives a shit about whatever the arbitrary "integrity of the game" is, so flops that accentuate legitimate contact don't really bother me. It's the flops that change the pace of the game and trick the refs that really frustrate me, however I think that this whole "flopping is killing basketball" ruckus that is going around the internet is a distraction from what is really killing the game for me, which is "superstar calls." The refs in the Pacers Heat game were horrendously bad, effectively taking Hill, George, and Hibbert out of the game. This is something that the Spurs are just going to have to deal with I suppose, if our finals route ends up being LAC, OKC, then MIA.

[PublicOption]

Honestly I'm not the type of person that gives a shit about whatever the arbitrary "integrity of the game" is, so flops that accentuate legitimate contact don't really bother me. It's the flops that change the pace of the game and trick the refs that really frustrate me, however I think that this whole "flopping is killing basketball" ruckus that is going around the internet is a distraction from what is really killing the game for me, which is "superstar calls." The refs in the Pacers Heat game were horrendously bad, effectively taking Hill, George, and Hibbert out of the game. This is something that the Spurs are just going to have to deal with I suppose, if our finals route ends up being LAC, OKC, then MIA.


This is exactly why Pop has an affection for 3 pt shooters. If you have make enough 3 pt shots you effectively take the refs out of the equations. 3pt shooter don't foul out or get in serious foul trouble. The fact that we have so many now the refs are at loss at who really to concentrate on. My guess is that they will try their best to take timmy and tiago out of game, but the 3pt shooters we have always gives us a chance to win any game.

CIA POP likes to fuck Stern with actions not words. :blah:rollin:flag:

[PublicOption]

They didn't shoot threes.


This doesn't make since......they made more 2's :rollin:rollin

[UZER]

Manu flops but its more of exaggeratin contact. Its not out of thin air. But he doesnt writhe in pain rolling around the floor. Whether he gets the call or not he gets up and goes back down the court.

Cp3 will make motions of contact when no contact has occurred. he even does this in dead ball situations. The worst part is that he yells so adamantly like he just got raped in front of the ref and he missed it.

[Silent]

Chris Paul - KING of flopps

[DMC]

You cannot fix flopping as long as fouls are not reviewable. If fouls were reviewable, the coach could have 3 or 4 challenges. If he loses the challenge, he gives up one of his challenges, if he win, he doesn't and he's not charged for a timeout. If there was a flop, and it's decided as much, then the offender gets a foul against him and gives up 2 shots and the ball out of bounds.

If the coach challenges the foul on the grounds of flopping, and he's wrong (he rarely would be), the opposing team gets 2 free throws and the ball out of bounds.

The refs should be left out of it.

There would be no challenges for anything other than flopping. Knowing how to take a charge isn't flopping. That shit CP3 does is flopping.

[ace3g]

some good flop examples here, lol:

http://clutch.mtv.com/2012/06/19/worst-flops-gifs/?xrs=share_twitter

[SpurOutofTownFan]

nah, it was brought over by players from soccer countries

your mom flops

[Slippy]

You cannot fix flopping as long as fouls are not reviewable. .

That wont chnage but there was an article the other day saying Stern wants to make it retro-active.. as in after the game review the video. Fines or technicals would seem the most logical.

The Australian football league, australia's biggest sporting comp introduced something similar this season where there is a review of the game tape, if there's any staging (acting) the player gets a fine and i think it can lead to suspension if they continue to do it. 2 players have already been bitten and has lead to a lot of un-wanted publicity and embarressment

Shocked there was no mention of James Harden who i think has taken it to a whole new level. He flops and flails in so many ways. The one where he shoots a three, kicks out his legs and lands on his backside is the worst. Those ones are clear-cut on video.

[SamoanTD]

Chris Paul - KING of flopps

Harden is gunning for that crown tbh lol.

[racm]

Harden is gunning for that crown tbh lol.

Nah, CP3 has subtlety. Harden's flops are too obvious.

[SamoanTD]

Nah, CP3 has subtlety. Harden's flops are too obvious.

:lol

[Spurs9]

See sig

[Oh, Gee!!]

best remendy is to stop calling fouls when the "fouled" person clearly flops to exaggerate the contact. After a few weeks the floppers will get the message: if you flop the refs won't save you.

[wut]

Well if the refs called the games like they used to, players wouldn't have to flop.

How do you think teams avg. 110pts a game in the late 70's early 80's.
exactly...you want to stop flopping, here's a crazy notion....Don't call so many damn fouls!!!

Remember what playoff basketball looked like in the 80s and 90s?

But seriously folks, the whole reason refs started calling touch fouls was due to teams like Spurs dominating, league needed to "create" fouls by making everything potentially a foul; in order to control the outcomes of games. Now Stern is surprised that all the players are faking calls and getting legitimate calls based on the shitty touch rules.

Change the dang rules if you want players to stop faking it....but beware, teams like the Spurs might actually start winning.

They already told the refs at the start of this season to be mindful of flops and ignore calls by players that look like they're forcing the action of a foul...yet guess what? That didn't stop them from calling those types of fouls when the NBA needed certain teams to win.

Stern thinks this is a players issue...IT IS NOT! This is a refs issue; after all the refs dictate everything about the game today anyway....what a joke.

[therealtruth]

exactly...you want to stop flopping, here's a crazy notion....Don't call so many damn fouls!!!

Remember what playoff basketball looked like in the 80s and 90s?

But seriously folks, the whole reason refs started calling touch fouls was due to teams like Spurs dominating, league needed to "create" fouls by making everything potentially a foul; in order to control the outcomes of games. Now Stern is surprised that all the players are faking calls and getting legitimate calls based on the shitty touch rules.

Change the dang rules if you want players to stop faking it....but beware, teams like the Spurs might actually start winning.

They already told the refs at the start of this season to be mindful of flops and ignore calls by players that look like they're forcing the action of a foul...yet guess what? That didn't stop them from calling those types of fouls when the NBA needed certain teams to win.

Stern thinks this is a players issue...IT IS NOT! This is a refs issue; after all the refs dictate everything about the game today anyway....what a joke.

The reason they started calling more fouls was to help increase scoring. The Spurs already are one of the teams that foul the least.

[TampaDude]

some good flop examples here, lol:

http://clutch.mtv.com/2012/06/19/worst-flops-gifs/?xrs=share_twitter

That was some funny shit right there. CP3's "heliflopter" was the best. :lol

[Kidd K]

Flopping is not the issue. If a player flops to exaggerate contact that WAS PRESENT, meaning, he gets slammed in to by a charging offensive player (who let's face it, if is named Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Wade, LeBron, etc, will NOT get called for a charge), or if you flop after getting hit by a moving or illegal screen to draw attention to it, then I am perfectly fine with it if it forces the ref to make the correct fucking call for once. Something they apparently don't do very often anymore when it comes to those specific plays.


So imo, the real issue is NOT flopping, it's not being able to challenge stupid calls. If you could challenge calls, coaches are free to challenge on flop plays which would erase the "benefit" of getting calls on those "acadamy award" flops where players flail around on minimal or no contact to try and draw a call they never should've gotten in the first place.

Adding challenges (and there should be more than the NFL's 2, because there's a lot more plays in an NBA game than an NFL one), would eliminate both the "bad flopping" that people hate, and would relieve the headaches and frustration that a lot of small market fans have over extremely bogus officiating.

Yes, refs will still make terrible calls, but at least it removes the excuse of human error and "well the plays move so fast", which we all know is just a bullshit excuse for built-in fixing during key moments and games for very specific league-preferred teams.

[DMC]

It won't go away, ever. Refs cannot even determine who fouled whom, as they often give the foul to the non-critical player instead of the one who actually committed the foul. They cannot determine out of bounds plays, who touched the ball last, even when it's obvious. How the hell are they going to tell that someone flopped? If there's a whistle, the ref is already hooked.

The game is played so fast that no one can see all that goes on and determine the result of a screen or charge. They all get together and talk it over, and still get it wrong.