saw something disgusting today

[mavs>spurs]

on world star hip hop they posted a video..it was of the cartels doing drive buys on police stations and executing people in cold blood. it was just absolutely evil and sickening, no remorse and just laughing about it. it made me wonder..why is it that we can go into every other country on the face of this earth on "humanitarian grounds" whenever its far less bad than the shit going on in mexico? all the people murdered and bodies dumped everywhere..recruiting little kids and training them as killers, it's sickening. why doesn't the moral police invade mexico in the name of "humanitarian grounds?" why is this only acceptable when it's the middle east? clearly the american people are being duped here and should rise up until all wars are immediately stopped.

for anyone who can bear to watch such a thing, here's the link. i don't really recommend it though. apparently there are others floating around out there of chainsaw beheadings but i'm not going to even go there.

http://www.worldstaruncut.com/uncut/46824

[ChumpDumper]

They haven't killed enough Americans yet.

[mavs>spurs]

C'mon dude neither has Syria. This isn't a troll thread dammit what's wrong with you? That whole guise is a fraud.

[ChumpDumper]

We haven't invaded Syria either.

[greyforest]

mexico doesnt have anything we want

[boutons_deux]

Can anybody see anything that would stop MX from declining indefinitely?

The drug cartels are MX's 1%, better financed, better equipped/armed than the govt, all around more powerful, capable of corrupting/buying/intimidating anybody.

I bet even Carlos Slim's operations are paying protection money to the drug gangs (and why not? he's has more more money than anybody else).

The drug cartels are a fantastic money spinner, and their markets are insatiable. Their "market makers", aka the US Drug Warriors, are keeping he demand up and Drug Warriors' jobs going by keeping the drug cartels products illegal. It's A Beautiful Life.

[Yonivore]

mexico doesnt have anything we want
I think the security of our Southern border is in Mexican hands, at the moment.


on world star hip hop they posted a video..it was of the cartels doing drive buys on police stations and executing people in cold blood. it was just absolutely evil and sickening, no remorse and just laughing about it.
Now, take into consideration many of those drive by shootings and executions are being committed with guns handed to the cartels by Barack Obama and it's even more disgusting and sickening.

[cheguevara]

that stuff will start happening in America in the next 20-30 years. if not earlier.

it's just bound to happen once the economic armageddon hits. USA wil be like Argentina, Venezuela, and yes eventually Mexico.

Hopefully we will have invented Robocop by then to fight for our children :cry

[Yonivore]

that stuff will start happening in America in the next 20-30 years. if not earlier.
Try, now.

San Diego Jury Convicts 2 in Cartel-Linked Murders (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/san-diego-jury-convicts-cartel-linked-murders-16360998#.T7uZ9dxYsyQ)

[boutons_deux]

the INsecurity of the MX-US border, MX side, is in the hands of the drug cartels.

Yoni blames Obama for the gun selling by some bureaucrats, but refuses to blame dubya, dickhead, and rummy for the Abu Graib and torture.

[cheguevara]

LMAO thinking the violence will seep from Mexico.

The real violence will erupt in middle america. There are enough guns and drug gangs in america to fill up 20 mexicos. All that is needed is the ingredient of total economic despair in people and booom.

[mavs>spurs]

We need to bring the troops home and work with Mexico to eliminate those bastards. If they don't like it, fuck it it's an invasion. We don't need that crap spilling over here. That's a war id actually support.

[mavs>spurs]

I just don't understand how people are so stupid that they buy all the "humanitarian aid" crap whenever this is going on. By their own logic, our troops are in the wrong place.

[cheguevara]

We need to bring the troops home and work with Mexico to eliminate those bastards. If they don't like it, fuck it it's an invasion. We don't need that crap spilling over here. That's a war id actually support.

huh, no. Easier solution. Eliminate the drug war. Legalize it all. You cut the juggular from the Mexican gangs. case closed. We don't even need to step foot in there.

[cheguevara]

and with all the billions of $$ you will have from the drug war, you release 75% and spend 25% of it in drug rehab centers and drug education.

but good luck convincing the politicians, police forces, prison industries, drug industries, alcohol industries. they'd rather have a mexico here than lose profit.

[cantthinkofanything]

and with all the billions of $$ you will have from the drug war, you release 75% and spend 25% of it in drug rehab centers and drug education.

but good luck convincing the politicians, police forces, prison industries, drug industries, alcohol industries. they'd rather have a mexico here than lose profit.

I still can't grasp how legalizing it will get rid of the whole problem. Wouldn't it be taxed at such a high level that the gangs will still sell it illegally on the street?

[cheguevara]

I still can't grasp how legalizing it will get rid of the whole problem. Wouldn't it be taxed at such a high level that the gangs will still sell it illegally on the street?

seriously?

how many boxes of cigarrettes and liquor have you bought from the black market?

[cantthinkofanything]

seriously?

how many boxes of cigarrettes and liquor have you bought from the black market?

yeah. I don't think about it much but it seems like a totally different situation than cigarettes and alcohol. I would think mass producing bricks of cocaine has a much higher profit margin than bottling liquor or packaging cigarettes.

[boutons_deux]

If cigarettes were taxed fully to offset the taxpayer expensive of caring for uninsured smokers with cancer (400K lung cancer deaths/year), then there would be a black market in cigarettes, including counterfit cigs.

But you can't refuse to impose a tax because of the problem of black marketing.

Cigarettes and BigPharma drugs are lethal, kills 100Ks per year, but they're legal.

Marijuana with 10Ms of users kills no one.

Why the diff? Corporations make $100Bs from cigarettes and patented drugs.

[Goran Dragic]

I still can't grasp how legalizing it will get rid of the whole problem. Wouldn't it be taxed at such a high level that the gangs will still sell it illegally on the street?
Holy hell that's retarded logic.

Even after all the taxes, it would still be a lot cheaper than what's currently sold for illegally.

[Goran Dragic]

yeah. I don't think about it much but it seems like a totally different situation than cigarettes and alcohol. I would think mass producing bricks of cocaine has a much higher profit margin than bottling liquor or packaging cigarettes.
Yeah, and if corporations were allowed to legally produce cocaine, there'd be a much higher supply of cocaine in the market and prices would drop. Basic economics.

It's also retarded to think that legalizing drugs would lead to a huge spike in drug usage. People who believe that are basically sheep who think the government needs to tell people what's good and bad. There isn't some huge amount of people in this country who love cocaine but don't do it since its against teh law!

[Goran Dragic]

how many boxes of cigarrettes and liquor have you bought from the black market?
:lmao

[cantthinkofanything]

Holy hell that's retarded logic.

Even after all the taxes, it would still be a lot cheaper than what's currently sold for illegally.

You don't think the cartels would adjust the price? I really don't know...it's why I brought it up.

So, if cocaine was legalized, would they still make it in S. America? Or would they be able to grow the cocoa plants here? If they were grown here and manufactured by American companies, would the cartels be able to undercut the prices and taxes? All I hear is "legalize it" but I'd like to hear how it would all work.

Also, wouldn't health insurance premiums rise for all of us to cover the cost of additional drug testing?

[cantthinkofanything]

Yeah, and if corporations were allowed to legally produce cocaine, there'd be a much higher supply of cocaine in the market and prices would drop. Basic economics.

It's also retarded to think that legalizing drugs would lead to a huge spike in drug usage. People who believe that are basically sheep who think the government needs to tell people what's good and bad. There isn't some huge amount of people in this country who love cocaine but don't do it since its against teh law!

You don't think legalizing cocaine and making it readily available will lead to more cocaine usage and more problems?

[Goran Dragic]

If cigarettes were taxed fully to offset the taxpayer expensive of caring for uninsured smokers with cancer (400K lung cancer deaths/year), then there would be a black market in cigarettes, including counterfit cigs.
What the fuck is a counterfeit cig? When people buy their own tobacco/their own paper and roll their own cigs, are those "counterfeit cigs?"

People who can't afford cigarettes as is already spend a significant portion of their low income on smoking 2 packs a day (my favorite is the women with a kid who stops at circle k on her way to the bus stop to buy cigs). More taxation won't make those people suddenly look for black market cigs.

IMO the better solution would be, as I've said countless times, to let uninsured smokers die. There's no reason why tax dollars should pay for the healthcare of people with self-inflicted, preventable health problems. The risks of smoking have been public knowledge for decades, people who still smoke know the risks and should assume the risk of financing their own lung cancer treatment.

[cheguevara]

forget cocaine for now. step 1 is making MJ legal.

MaryJane is drug cartel's bread and butter, they pay their daily expenses with that income. You cut that and you cut a huge chunk of the cartels money.

[boutons_deux]

counterfit cigs are like counterfit luxury goods. looks like the real thing, but mfrd in China or elsewhere.

counterfitting of Marlboro cigarettes in Europe has been going on for decades.

[Goran Dragic]

You don't think legalizing cocaine and making it readily available will lead to more cocaine usage and more problems?
No, I really don't. What would make you think it would? Do you have any evidence of situations where legalizing something led to more usage? Would you start indulging in some nose candy if it became illegal?

:lol thinking cocaine isn't readily available as is

[cantthinkofanything]

forget cocaine for now. step 1 is making MJ legal.

MaryJane is drug cartel's bread and butter, they pay their daily expenses with that income. You cut that and you cut a huge chunk of the cartels money.

I'm on board with that. I don't think you have the same potential problems with legalizing MJ as opposed to Coke.

But I think you also have to couple it with some kind of military take out of the cartels. They have too much money and too much at stake to passively sit and watch the U.S. destroy their livelihood. If they can't make money selling drugs to the U.S., they're going to find some other way to make their billions.

[cantthinkofanything]

No, I really don't. What would make you think it would? Do you have any evidence of situations where legalizing something led to more usage? Would you start indulging in some nose candy if it became illegal?

:lol thinking cocaine isn't readily available as is

Seriously? I know a lot of people my age that would still like to do some coke now and then but don't because they have a family. These are parents who probably still drink too much and haven't gotten rid of all the vices you can enjoy when you're younger with less responsibilities. You give them the opportunity to buy coke without any legal repercussions and it's going to become a problem.

:lol at you thinking coke is as readily available as booze or cigarettes for the majority of the country.

[cantthinkofanything]

No, I really don't. What would make you think it would? Do you have any evidence of situations where legalizing something led to more usage? Would you start indulging in some nose candy if it became illegal?

:lol thinking cocaine isn't readily available as is

I assume you meant, "legal". and yeah, I probably would snort some coke now and then if it was legal. And I think I'm responsible enough to control it so it didn't fuck up my home life or work. But there would be a lot of people that wouldn't and it would be devastating for their family.

I really can't believe that you don't think legalizing a highly addictive drug like cocaine would not lead to more addiction in the U.S.

And quit comparing it to booze and cigarettes. It's not even close.

[Goran Dragic]

You don't think the cartels would adjust the price? I really don't know...it's why I brought it up.
Did the bootleggers in the 1920s successfully "adjust pricing" after prohibiting ended to compete with legit brewing companies or was the black market for alcohol basically done after prohibition ended?


So, if cocaine was legalized, would they still make it in S. America? Or would they be able to grow the cocoa plants here? If they were grown here and manufactured by American companies, would the cartels be able to undercut the prices and taxes? All I hear is "legalize it" but I'd like to hear how it would all work.
First off, you're kidding yourself if you think legalizing cocaine would mean any idiot would be able to go to CVS and over the counter cocaine.

Second, you're naively assuming there'd be some astronomical spike in demand. There aren't millions of people out their anxiously awaiting the legalization of cocaine before they all become fiends. Cocaine being illegal isn't what's deterring people from doing it (however given you're logic maybe that's what's deterring you), the health effects of it deter people, which wouldn't change. It's conceivable legalizing cocaine would decrease usage over time.

It's perfectly legal to chug laundry detergent yet somehow I can't remember the last story I heard of someone who died because of consuming too much laundry detergent. Must be a miracle.

Thirdly, yes there'd probably be domestic production. Cartels would lose control over the industry and wouldn't be able to finance all of their other illegal activity.




Also, wouldn't health insurance premiums rise for all of us to cover the cost of additional drug testing?
If cocaine and other hardcore drugs were to become legalized, it would also need to come with an overhaul to this country's healthcare system, namely what health insurances have to cover or what coverage uninsured people get. As I've said already, if someone has a self-inflicted health issue from drug use and can't finance treatment, the taxpayers shouldn't have to subsidize that person.

The fact that you bring up "drug testing" only further proves my point. Even with legalized cocaine, it would be just as hard for an addict to get and keep a job, and the general public would have the same negative view of cocaine and its users as it does now.

[Goran Dragic]

Seriously? I know a lot of people my age that would still like to do some coke now and then but don't because they have a family. These are parents who probably still drink too much and haven't gotten rid of all the vices you can enjoy when you're younger with less responsibilities. You give them the opportunity to buy coke without any legal repercussions and it's going to become a problem.

:lol at you thinking coke is as readily available as booze or cigarettes for the majority of the country.
Well first, sounds like you hang out with a lot of white trash :lmao. Believe it or not, most people who have families to take care of are responsible and the thought of doing coke doesn't cross their mind. Shocking, I know.

Second, this makes no sense and contradicted itself. If their family is preventing them from doing coke, that won't change if it becomes legal. If them doing coke would result in losing their job and not being able to support their family, then they wouldn't do it if they cared about their family.

:lol at you thinking legalizing coke would make it as available as booze or cigarettes.

[Goran Dragic]

yeah, I probably would snort some coke now and then if it was legal. And I think I'm responsible enough to control it so it didn't fuck up my home life or work.
So then you should be able to enjoy it legally, not have to suffer because of the dipshits you describe below. The whole point of living in a "free country" is being able to make decisions for yourself, not having your rights restricted because others are too stupid to make decisions for themselves.


But there would be a lot of people that wouldn't and it would be devastating for their family.
People in this country who need cocaine to be illegal in order to not become an addict are stupid, worthless human beings who I'd love to see die off over time and stop reproducing/having a family. You're also grossly over estimating how many people are that stupid/irresponsible, and also underestimating how many of those people aren't doing coke illegally.


I really can't believe that you don't think legalizing a highly addictive drug like cocaine would not lead to more addiction in the U.S.
I don't hang around a lot of white trash. Most intelligent people don't need the government telling them what is/isn't bad.

[cantthinkofanything]

Did the bootleggers in the 1920s successfully "adjust pricing" after prohibiting ended to compete with legit brewing companies or was the black market for alcohol basically done after prohibition ended?

And this eliminated the organized crime problem in the U.S.? I know we're talking about 2 different issues but this was the original question in this thread. How to eliminate the cartels and the violence.



First off, you're kidding yourself if you think legalizing cocaine would mean any idiot would be able to go to CVS and over the counter cocaine.


Second, you're naively assuming there'd be some astronomical spike in demand.

I didn't say that. I said that legalizing cocaine would lead to more cocaine addiction in the U.S.



There aren't millions of people out their anxiously awaiting the legalization of cocaine before they all become fiends. Cocaine being illegal isn't what's deterring people from doing it (however given you're logic maybe that's what's deterring you), the health effects of it deter people, which wouldn't change.

No, there aren't millions of people waiting to become coke fiends. Just like alcoholics didn't plan on becoming an alcoholic when they took their first drink. But again, I don't think you can compare the first drink with the first bump of coke.

And the legality and availability of it absolutely do influence whether a large number of people use it or not.

Some will be responsible enough to use it recreationally but a large portion will not.


It's conceivable legalizing cocaine would decrease usage over time.
It's more conceivable that it will increase.


It's perfectly legal to chug laundry detergent yet somehow I can't remember the last story I heard of someone who died because of consuming too much laundry detergent. Must be a miracle.

Oh...yes...they're the same thing...


Thirdly, yes there'd probably be domestic production. Cartels would lose control over the industry and wouldn't be able to finance all of their other illegal activity.

Do you have any basis for saying "probably be domestic production"? Can you efficiently grow cocoa here in this climate? Or would you need climate controlled greenhouses? I don't know. Or would it be synthetic?




If cocaine and other hardcore drugs were to become legalized, it would also need to come with an overhaul to this country's healthcare system, namely what health insurances have to cover or what coverage uninsured people get. As I've said already, if someone has a self-inflicted health issue from drug use and can't finance treatment, the taxpayers shouldn't have to subsidize that person.

The fact that you bring up "drug testing" only further proves my point. Even with legalized cocaine, it would be just as hard for an addict to get and keep a job, and the general public would have the same negative view of cocaine and its users as it does now.

I was saying that the health insurance companies would need to test all applicants for drug use. And that cost would get passed on to everyone. Not just the users. And by eliminating the users from being able to get insurance, the cost would be even higher to those that didn't use.

[DarrinS]

If cigarettes were taxed fully to offset the taxpayer expensive of caring for uninsured smokers with cancer (400K lung cancer deaths/year), then there would be a black market in cigarettes, including counterfit cigs.

But you can't refuse to impose a tax because of the problem of black marketing.



Cigarrettes are taxed quite heavily actually

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cigarette_taxes_in_the_United_States#State_cigaret te_tax_rates

[boutons_deux]

the cig (or gasoline) tax should be national policy so that there would be no grey/black marketing across state borders.

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2010/07/08/global-tobacco-taxes/

If cig taxes didn't work, then the criminal cig companies wouldn't buy so many legislators to kill/reduce the cig taxes.

If you want tax policy to change guide social behavior (like stop smoking or switch to fuel efficient cars), the tax must be damn near punitive.

[DisAsTerBot]

lol people who would go out and do coke cause it's legal

[boutons_deux]

Holland and Portugal have shown that legalizing drugs results in a stable population of drug users.

[cantthinkofanything]

lol people who would go out and do coke cause it's legal

LOL all you want. The number is bigger than you think. 40 year old married with children isn't going to risk losing all that to score some coke on a Friday night going out with his friends. But make it legal and available at a store...

[DisAsTerBot]

a "stable population"...as in doesn't increase once legalized?

[DisAsTerBot]

LOL all you want. The number is bigger than you think. 40 year old married with children isn't going to risk losing all that to score some coke on a Friday night going out with his friends. But make it legal and available at a store...

yeah all the 40 year old family men and women I know are just waiting to do some lines once the govt says it's cool. If you're 40 and haven't done drugs yet, don't start, legal or not.

[boutons_deux]

a "stable population"...as in doesn't increase once legalized?

approximately, yes. If people want drugs, they will get them, legal or illegal.

If they don't want them, making them legal doesn't induce them to use them.

[DisAsTerBot]

approximately, yes. If people want drugs, they will get them, legal or illegal.

If they don't want them, making them legal doesn't induce them to use them.

my thoughts exactly. You'd have to be some kind of retard to automatically want them because your govt said it's legal. I don't suddenly have the urge to marry a man

[boutons_deux]

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html

[TeyshaBlue]

Holland and Portugal have shown that legalizing drugs results in a stable population of drug users.

Except in Holland, foreigners/tourists can no longer purchase drugs.

[cantthinkofanything]

yeah all the 40 year old family men and women I know are just waiting to do some lines once the govt says it's cool. If you're 40 and haven't done drugs yet, don't start, legal or not.

I'm talking about the ones that did do drugs when they were younger.

[clambake]

i don't want to get my drugs at the pharmacy. i want dark alleys and a chance of murder involved.

[Yonivore]

seriously?

how many boxes of cigarrettes and liquor have you bought from the black market?
If I lived on the Canadian border and smoked, that'd be an interesting answer. But, to your point, there is a pretty lucrative black market from Canada and Mexico for liquor, smokes, and prescription drugs.

That's why I advocate simply decriminalizing drugs. No taxes, no laws, no regulation. If you want to grow it, make it, sell it, buy it, smoke it, shoot it, share it with your friends and strangers...go for it.

There are plenty of criminal laws against most of the illegal activities in which people might engage to pursue a non-criminal drug enterprise. If you worried about self-destructive behaviors and health issues related to drug abuse -- get in line behind those of us who are similarly sick of the same issues related to smoking and alcohol abuse.

That would put the cartels out of business.

[Yonivore]

You don't think the cartels would adjust the price?
It would drop below a price for which taking a human life is no longer the minor element in a risk/reward calculation.

[boutons_deux]

Except in Holland, foreigners/tourists can no longer purchase drugs.

drug tourists/non-residents aren't "(holland) population"

[DisAsTerBot]

I'm talking about the ones that did do drugs when they were younger.

so why did they stop then? Let's see, it's called responsibilities, growing up, being able to make an informed decision.

You're making a point against yourself. If they did it when they were younger (while still being illegal) then stopped (while still being illegal) why start again? Unless you're an addict, which the law would have no effect on

[cantthinkofanything]

so why did they stop then? Let's see, it's called responsibilities, growing up, being able to make an informed decision.

You're making a point against yourself. If they did it when they were younger (while still being illegal) then stopped (while still being illegal) why start again? Unless you're an addict, which the law would have no effect on

I stopped because I got married, had a child, got a real job, etc. Other friends did the same. Now, I don't think I know anyone that could score me a gram of coke if I had the urge. Not without going to considerable trouble. But if it was readily available and legal, I'd probably buy some now and then. I don't think my situation is unique. My guess is that there is a large % people that have similar stories. And some portion of these would probably try it again from time to time, and some portion of these would let it get out of control. I don't know what that % is but I think it's greater than you think.

[DisAsTerBot]

So, in other words, if it was still readily available to you (without going to considerable trouble) you'd do it. I think you're fooling yourself that the law is holding you back. Maybe the policies of your work place holding you back would be more accurate

[cantthinkofanything]

So, in other words, if it was still readily available to you (without going to considerable trouble) you'd do it. I think you're fooling yourself that the law is holding you back. Maybe the policies of your work place holding you back would be more accurate

It's not directly the law that's holding me back I guess. It's the inaccessibility resulting from its illegality. If I had a trusted friend that got me some, I'd probably do it. But if I've got to try to find some new connection to score for me, it's not worth the trouble or risk.
I don't sit and crave coke all day. But if it were readily available to me and there were no legal repercussions to me having it or using it, I would probably do it from time to time. I'm not subject to any drug testing so that's not an issue.

I'm sure that there aren't many people that don't use based solely on its legal status. But I do believe that there are many who would start using again if it was made readily available (facilitated by legalization).

[TheSkeptic]

If I lived on the Canadian border and smoked, that'd be an interesting answer. But, to your point, there is a pretty lucrative black market from Canada and Mexico for liquor, smokes, and prescription drugs.

That's why I advocate simply decriminalizing drugs. No taxes, no laws, no regulation. If you want to grow it, make it, sell it, buy it, smoke it, shoot it, share it with your friends and strangers...go for it.

There are plenty of criminal laws against most of the illegal activities in which people might engage to pursue a non-criminal drug enterprise. If you worried about self-destructive behaviors and health issues related to drug abuse -- get in line behind those of us who are similarly sick of the same issues related to smoking and alcohol abuse.

Fair logic



That would put the cartels out of business.

Not necessarily.

[cantthinkofanything]

Not necessarily.

Bingo. They'd just find other ways to make money. They could increase their activity in human trafficking. Or possibly try to work with terrorist groups against the U.S.

[TheSkeptic]

Bingo. They'd just find other ways to make money. They could increase their activity in human trafficking. Or possibly try to work with terrorist groups against the U.S.

Well the other option would be for governments to make everything legal and go from there. :lol

Quite a few of them make money through blackmail, dealing weapons, human trafficking, prostitution rings, etc. I'm not sure where people get this idea that the ones running these cartels from the very top don't diversify.

I agree that something like marijuana should be legalized and regulated though because the resources put towards fighting a relatively harmless drug are a net drain on society. Increasing access to hard drugs doesn't really benefit anybody and you'll just see the cartels shift more heavily towards other criminal activities.

[Yonivore]

Not necessarily.
On all but the exclusive markets; absolutely.

But, most illicit drugs can be synthesized by nerd stoners and entrepreneurs here in the States. The cartels will have to come up with a value add that makes their product more appealing -- and, I don't think threats of throwing 46 headless bodies in the middle of the road will work for very long.

[Axe Murderer]

i don't want to get my drugs at the pharmacy. i want dark alleys and a chance of murder involved.

:rollin

[FuzzyLumpkins]

On all but the exclusive markets; absolutely.

But, most illicit drugs can be synthesized by nerd stoners and entrepreneurs here in the States. The cartels will have to come up with a value add that makes their product more appealing -- and, I don't think threats of throwing 46 headless bodies in the middle of the road will work for very long.

They control the production and distribution of the product as it now exists. They cannot use thug tactics to block startups but by definition they will start off controlling market share. They would have if nothing else a tremendous competitive advantage.

Those that are already wanted criminals would have issues but if you haven't been caught yet you would be golden. You would have all manner of fronts and the like.