Tim Duncan vs Kobe

[Jimcs50]

The new topic on the Fox radio shows(Loose Cannons and Dan Patrick) the last couple of days(including their poll questions) is which player is the best player of his generation, Kobe or Timmy.

I was surprised to see that TD was getting almost equal support here.

Thank you for voting!
Kobe Bryant 54.61%


Tim Duncan 45.39%


Return To Poll


Most leaned towards Kobe because of the 5 rings vs 4 rings, but they said that if TD gets his 5th this year, he will take over the top spot.

Another argument for TD is that TD is the best player ever at his position all time(PF) and Kobe is only second best at his position (SG) all time.

1. Do you guys think that the 5th ring would move Timmy into the top spot?

2. Do you think TD is already the number one player of his generation?

[skulls138]

Tim Duncan for sure though I think he's been a center ever since David Robinson retired. As for the comparison with Kobe, I think KB's success was heavily dependent on Phil Jackson being his coach whereas TD wouldve been succesful with any coach. Maybe not AS successful but successful nontheless.

[davidbowie]

if he gets another ring, it's Tim for sure

[Venti Quattro]

Kobe has had a more glamorous (and controversial) career, and more rings up to this point. Add some more years, throw in one or two rings and some more accolades, and Kobe's career might be better than Jordan's in totality. But Tim's career is a model of consistency and being conducive to any playing style. If you will read Bill Simmons' book, this is clearly illustrated there.

[Jimcs50]

Dan Patrick asked Brent Barry to pick.

Brent said Tim.

[024]

duncan has more mvps and finals mvp than kobe already. one more ring and it seals it. don't see how kobe has had the better career.

[dbreiden83080]

throw in one or two rings and some more accolades, and Kobe's career might be better than Jordan's in totality

:lol

Kobe's only shot at 6 rings is if the Lakers load up for him one more time with more all stars. And getting 6 will never erase his failures in the finals.. Jordan would have abused Pierce laughing all the way to a finals MVP..

[DMC]

Pretty sure this has been beaten to death, resurrected, ass fucked, felched and beaten to death again downstairs for years.

[Nathan Explosion]

Right now I'd say Tim, but I am a Spurs fan. But if the Spurs win it all this year, it has to be Duncan. 5 for 5 in the Finals, 3 Finals MVPs, 2 MVPs and the best ever at his position argument (although Kobe does play behind Jordan so that's tough).

But Kobe is not even the best Laker (Magic and Kareem say "Hi") around so how can he challenge Jordan anyway.

The real winner for Tim is that the Spurs have the best winning percentage of any team in the 4 major american sports since he arrived. Oh, and he's NEVER missed the playoffs. Ever.

[ElNono]

Where's BRHornet to really tell you the truth about Kobe... and tired Timmy? :lol

[Venti Quattro]

:lol

Kobe's only shot at 6 rings is if the Lakers load up for him one more time with more all stars. And getting 6 will never erase his failures in the finals.. Jordan would have abused Pierce laughing all the way to a finals MVP..

That's why it's also said that he has never and will never reach Jordan's ceiling...

Speaking of finals failures, Magic has won 5 but no one, I mean no one, will ever forget how he choked so bad in 1984.

[Nathan Explosion]

That's why it's also said that he has never and will never reach Jordan's ceiling....

Well, that and how he gave up in a Game 7 against the Suns or how he gave up against the Celtics in the Finals.

He quit on his team. Jordan would have never quit. That's the biggest difference.

[spurraider21]

kobe had a 3 year span where he missed the playoffs then got bounced in the first round twice in a row. if duncan wins the 5th there should be zero argument

[therealtruth]

Kobe's not clutch. He's just a gunner without a conscience.

[Agloco]

Kobe has had a more glamorous (and controversial) career, and more rings up to this point. Add some more years, throw in one or two rings and some more accolades, and Kobe's career might be better than Jordan's in totality. But Tim's career is a model of consistency and being conducive to any playing style. If you will read Bill Simmons' book, this is clearly illustrated there.

Lets not go down that street.

[Arcadian]

Tim is already #1.

[Venti Quattro]

Tim is already #1.

Wilt
Bird
Magic
Kareem
Russell
MJ

...are all laughing at you.

[Venti Quattro]

Lets not go down that street.

18-19 years without missing, 6 or 7 rings, 10 or so first teams, a couple of years hanging around before retirement... that's not a bad career to have. That's Kareem-like.

[Agloco]

18-19 years without missing, 6 or 7 rings, 10 or so first teams, a couple of years hanging around before retirement... that's not a bad career to have. That's Kareem-like.

:tu

But Kareem isn't the GOAT either.

[pgardn]

Wilt
Bird
Magic
Kareem
Russell
MJ

...are all laughing at you.

Russell...


Total BS.

[Venti Quattro]

:tu

But Kareem isn't the GOAT either.

We've established a couple of things here:

1. Kobe has never/will never reach Jordan's ceiling
2. Kareem isn't the GOAT
3. Kobe still has years left in his tank before he parks it, so he still has time to catch up on some categories (longevity, championships, All-Team merits are some)

[Venti Quattro]

Russell...

Total BS.
I hated the pre-expansion era because the way Boston won those titles were kind of tilted, but 11 rings is 11 rings. It was hard to do that before, and even more impossible to do that now.

If Wilt wasn't such a stat whore and a pussy in crunch time, we might have seen a few more titles swing hands.

[Agloco]

We've established a couple of things here:

1. Kobe has never/will never reach Jordan's ceiling
2. Kareem isn't the GOAT
3. Kobe still has years left in his tank before he parks it, so he still has time to catch up on some categories (longevity, championships, All-Team merits are some)

Fair enough. I recognize that I'm no less than 100% biased.

[DAF86]

Shaq from what "generation" is? Everybody at their primes, he's clearly the better player of the three, imho.

[DAF86]

Regular season MVP, Finals MVP and ring all in the same season. That's the sign of true greatness. Shaq and Duncan have that, Kobe doesn't.

[dbreiden83080]

Wilt
Bird
Magic
Kareem
Russell
MJ

...are all laughing at you.

Both Duncan and Kobe are in Bird and Magic's class. Magic for as great as he was had some of the most insane talent around him in history.. Russell had the best team of his era by far as well.. Kareem is a cut above and MJ is MJ.. Duncan is the best ever to play his position. You have an all time starting five he is in at PF..

[ambchang]

Another case of measuring an individual's success based on team accomplishments. Only the dumbest of the dumb would go that route as the primary argument. And it seems like there are a lot of dumb people.

[TDomination]

I love this topic. Kobe vs. Tim, without a doubt the two best players of the previous 10+ years.

How do you define "best"? Is it individual skills such as ability to score, defend, rebound, steal, block, pass and their physical ability that defines this? Kobe wins scoring, but also shoots more. Duncan wins rebounding. Kobe wins steals but Duncan wins blocks. Kobe wins assist and I believe its a wash with physical ability.

How much does leadership skills, bball iq, ability to make teammates better weigh into this? Kobe is more vocal but Duncan leads by example. Both have a high bball IQ and I would give an edge to Duncan making teammates better. Kobe's version of making teammates better is not giving them a chance to fail by not giving them the ball. I exaggerate but he is known for having a lot of 1 on 1 possessions.


What about regular season success? Duncan with 13 consecutive seasons with 50+ wins (an NBA record), playoff appearances in every season vs Kobe who missed playoffs in 1 year and had 3 consecutive seasons with less than 50 wins.

Or playoff success? Kobe's playoff record: 137-83 (61%) 7 Finals Appearance, 5 championships vs Tim Duncan 115-69 (60%) 4 Finals Appearance, 4 Championships

And what about hardware? Tim Duncan: 4 Rings, 3 NBA finals MVP, 2 Regular Season MVPs vs Kobe Bryant: 5 Rings, 2 NBA finals MVP's, 1 Regular Season MVP.

To me its close, but I give a very slight edge to Timmy as of right now. I believe he's the best teammate anybody could ever have. Unselfish but always knows when its his time to take over.

[Keepin' it real]

Tim Duncan wins because Kobe is a punk-ass bitch. /thread

[Obstructed_View]

Speaking of finals failures, Magic has won 5 but no one, I mean no one, will ever forget how he choked so bad in 1984.

16 points, 15 assists, 2 blocks and 4 steals in game 7 of the finals is choking?

[Venti Quattro]

16 points, 15 assists, 2 blocks and 4 steals in game 7 of the finals is choking?

Two costly turnovers in the final 1:30 is.

[TDMVPDPOY]

lol duncan is player of the decade

so now they change it to generation so kobe has something to look forward too winning...

[Blackjack]

What Tim's done in San Antonio is much more impressive to me than what Kobe's done in LA.

Have a hard time believing, as great as a talent/player Kobe is, he'd even be in the conversation if the organizations were reversed.

[TDomination]

What Tim's done in San Antonio is much more impressive to me than what Kobe's done in LA.

Have a hard time believing, as great as a talent/player Kobe is, he'd even be in the conversation if the organizations were reversed.

Not only that, imagine how much of a god Duncan would be if he was in L.A.

[SpursIndonesia]

In Kobe's first 3 rings, Shaq was the number 1 option, so at best it counts for half the value. So it's more of a 3.5 rings accomplishment for Kobe, while TD is a 4 rings guy (only this year, if we win it all -knock on woods- the rings might count half for TD). Jordan 6 rings is never a doubt count for 6, even if we discount them with Pippen's help, at worst it comes to 5, so he's clearly the GOAT, atleast at the SG spot.

[Blackjack]

Or Boston or New York or Chicago.

It's not just about the talent, even if it has to be all-time great, it's about what that talent allows a team and organization to do.

Give Duncan the payroll, venue, the free-agent draw that is LA, bet 5 looks more like 8.

Kobe might've of got a championship in SA but he could have just as easily wound up as a slightly more successful AI - probably running off a coach or two and leaving for greener pastures in the process.

[DPG21920]

Killakobe thread

[Obstructed_View]

Two costly turnovers in the final 1:30 is.

Seriously, if that's where any Laker fan sets the bar, then Kobe's never been remotely clutch.

[Fabbs]

Has Kobe had a better career then Manu GNob?
And if GNob gets yet another legitimate Championship this year, is there any way Kome can catch him?

Can Kombe catch Pippen since he is now slipping to 3rd best player on his own team?

Legit questions.

Kobme vs Tim Duncan is not.

[King]

Comparing players from two different positions is a lesson in futility, to me. Their skill-sets are totally different. Their roles are totally different. So, their impact is totally different.

It's like comparing Justin Verlander and Josh Hamilton. Who is better?

[Vic Petro]

In Kobe's first 3 rings, Shaq was the number 1 option...

Duncan is already the #1 post Jordan player. Kobe has 5 rings but 3 of them are Shaq's. Kobe has 2 rings as the core player on a championship team. TD has 4.

[VBM]

kobe had a 3 year span where he missed the playoffs then got bounced in the first round twice in a row. if duncan wins the 5th there should be zero argument

To be fair, Duncan didn't win a second round game from 2009-2011. Surprised that isn't brought up more by the Kobe apologists.

[Venti Quattro]

To be fair, Duncan didn't win a second round game from 2009-2011. Surprised that isn't brought up more by the Kobe apologists.

a. It's easier to bring up championships because those were the Lakers' championship prime
b. The Spurs still won 50 games.

[The ADMIRAL 50]

I already feel like Duncan is the best of his generation, though I will admit to being blatantly biased. That said, my number one point was that Kobe was an obvious second fiddle to Shaq for his first three titles, while TD has been the obvious number one man on all four of his title teams. If Tim gets number 5 this year that should make it more definitive from an objective standpoint imo.

Also: TD clinched one of his rings with a 21/20/10/8 performance, while Kobe clinched one of his going 6 of 24, so...

[Kidd K]

Duncan's already easily better than Kobe even with 4 rings vs 5. Duncan was clearly the best player on the Spurs every year of his career until the last two. Kobe was not the best Laker until halfway into his career, and got 3 rings with a superior player leading the way. Therefore, imo, Kobe's 5 rings aren't worth as much as Duncan's 4.

Without even considering that, Duncan also has more accomplishments anyway. More Finals MVPs (Kobe has 2 and only deserves 1 imo), more regular season MVPs (Chris Paul deserved it the year Kobe won his even, lol.), More DESERVED defensive team awards by far. Better leader. Better team player. Won more consistently. Never had media circus around him causing trouble. Didn't attention whore. etc.

Putting prime Duncan on any team in the NBA right now makes them a lot better than if you put Kobe on any team. I'd argue that Kobe's presence would even make some teams worse, not better. Duncan's game impact is/was far more positive than Kobe's overall impact. So even throwing out awards which favor Duncan anyway, Duncan's the better player imo and it's really not even that close.

Kobe will go down as one of the most overrated players ever. Let's not forget he might end up leading the NBA in FGAs MISSED before he's done. He isn't very far off right now.

Kobe's 4th all time in bricks (regular season) right now, and is just 50 away from 3rd place (Kareem) who took over 6,000 more shots than Kobe so far. Yet only 50 more bricks. After catching Kareem, he's only a couple hundred away from Karl Malone who also shot several thousand more shots than Kobe (4,000 or so), which again speaks about Kobe's inefficiency.

Kobe's only about 1,200 bricks away from the record. He averages nearly 800 bricks per season, so he'll be the all time bricks leader after a couple years. And will still be nowhere near the all time points record when he gets there.

Combine that with being borderline uncoachable, ignoring plays, attacking teammates through the media, demanding Shaq or himself be traded multiple times, not trying on defense half the time until it gets to the point his coach starts to just hide him on the worst player on the floor on D', and his propencity to jack up terrible shots, there's a lot of bad stuff to deal with just to get to the good.

Compare and contrast to Duncan, a player who has practically no negatives, yet also has better overall stats, more achievements aside from 1 less ring, better track record, always in the hunt for titles, larger positive impact on game, etc.


Duncan > Kobe easily. Not even close when you factor everything. All Kobe has is a single ring more than Duncan with tons of help from other superstar players and occaisionally NBA interference via biased officiating . . . On a team with a long history of winning pre-Kobe. . .vs Duncan, who bulldogged his way to 4, possibly 5 titles on a team that's never won one before he joined up. Kobe's just the more hyped player, not the better one.

[Fireball]

Kobe had a prime Shaq by his side winning the three championships. Tim Duncan had great support, but no other superstar was with him. That including more individual accolades (MVPs, Finals MVPs) put Duncan on top!

[coyotes_geek]

What Tim's done in San Antonio is much more impressive to me than what Kobe's done in LA.

Have a hard time believing, as great as a talent/player Kobe is, he'd even be in the conversation if the organizations were reversed.

If organizations were reversed no one bothers comparing Tim to Kobe. They'd be busy trying to compare Tim to Kareem and Wilt.

[coyotes_geek]

Duncan is already the #1 post Jordan player. Kobe has 5 rings but 3 of them are Shaq's. Kobe has 2 rings as the core player on a championship team. TD has 4.

So if the Spurs win #5 this year does Duncan get credit for that ring, or does Tony Parker get credit for that one?

[OKC Thunderstorm]

The new topic on the Fox radio shows(Loose Cannons and Dan Patrick) the last couple of days(including their poll questions) is which player is the best player of his generation, Kobe or Timmy.

I was surprised to see that TD was getting almost equal support here.

Thank you for voting!
Kobe Bryant 54.61%


Tim Duncan 45.39%


Return To Poll


Most leaned towards Kobe because of the 5 rings vs 4 rings, but they said that if TD gets his 5th this year, he will take over the top spot.

Another argument for TD is that TD is the best player ever at his position all time(PF) and Kobe is only second best at his position (SG) all time.

1. Do you guys think that the 5th ring would move Timmy into the top spot?

2. Do you think TD is already the number one player of his generation?

Of course it is close. Anyone that says it's not is being a homer. Kobe pulled ahead the pastr few years because Duncan appeared to be done. But if Duncan leads this team to a title Duncan pulls even or ahead. Both are great players, legendary. But they will soon be gone ... Durant has passed them both.

[ViceCity86]

Barkley on Dan Patrick show today
Duncan is not a top 10 player all time.

[K-State Spur]

Of course it is close. Anyone that says it's not is being a homer. Kobe pulled ahead the pastr few years because Duncan appeared to be done. But if Duncan leads this team to a title Duncan pulls even or ahead. Both are great players, legendary. But they will soon be gone ... Durant has passed them both.

FWIW, despite appearing "done" - Duncan's posted an equal or better PER than Kobe in 3 of the last 4 years.

Both of their games have slightly regressed, but the big difference is that Kobe has continued to play his minutes and continues to jack up shots to compensate for less efficiency to accumulate the same counting stats.

Duncan's efficiency remained roughly the same, but saw his counting stats decline due to less minutes from Pop.

Most of Tim's regression is on defense - but Kobe has fallen off on that side of the ball as well (regardless of what All-Defense voters think).

[Jimcs50]

Barkley on Dan Patrick show today
Duncan is not a top 10 player all time.

How can he be best PF all time and not be top 10?

TD>Bill Russell, and I am sure that Charles has him in top 10.

[VBM]

How can he be best PF all time and not be top 10?

TD>Bill Russell, and I am sure that Charles has him in top 10.

I'd be interested to see if he has Shaq in there. You know (in no order) Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Jordan, Magic, Bird are in there. I think Hakeem and Oscar Robertson are probably locks as well. So that's 8 players on a consensus top 10. Who inherits the final two spots?

[coyotes_geek]

TD>Bill Russell

11 rings trumps any and all debate about whether or not Russell belongs in the top 10. Fair or unfair, that's just the way it is.

[Jimcs50]

11 rings trumps any and all debate about whether or not Russell belongs in the top 10. Fair or unfair, that's just the way it is.

Bill Russell was 6'9", in today's NBA, he would be decent, but not top 30.

Wilt dominated Russell head to head. He had 50 rebs against Russell.

[OKC Thunderstorm]

Let me provide some neutral insight, because yall some biased ass Tim nut-huggers. Tim is a great player one of the best and humble superstars the game has ever known. Kobe is an arrogant prick but is one of the best all-around players since MJ. Both are great. But who give a crap, both are now TOSB. Lebron may pass them both. But before long Durant will past all 4 INCLUDING MJ. Because he is THAT nice.
It all starts Sunday. You insecure Spur fans and arrogant Laker fans can argue over some dumb shit like who owned the last decade that shit argument should of ended two years ago. This is Durant's and Lebron's decade. And we start our Bird vs. Magic 2.0 this June. So yall bitches need to get out of the way of destiny.
The THUNDER rolls!!!

[coyotes_geek]

Bill Russell was 6'9", in today's NBA, he would be decent, but not top 30.

Wilt dominated Russell head to head. He had 50 rebs against Russell.

I get where you're coming from, but when it comes to Russell the 11 rings are all anyone is going to look at. Again, that's just the way it is.

[coyotes_geek]

Please pay attention to me!

:sleep

[OKC Thunderstorm]

:sleep

Truth, hurts.

[Jimcs50]

I get where you're coming from, but when it comes to Russell the 11 rings are all anyone is going to look at. Again, that's just the way it is.


He played with 6 HOFers.

[Venti Quattro]

Wilt dominated Russell head to head. He had 50 rebs against Russell.

This isn't entirely true. Well to a degree, yes, but Russell destroyed Wilt in crunch time play.

That includes Logo, who had such horrible luck.

How good were they back in the clutch? Russell and his teams were 10-0 in Game 7's.

[coyotes_geek]

He played with 6 HOFers.

How many of those 6 only got there because they played with him?

[Jimcs50]

How many of those 6 only got there because they played with him?

It is impossible to compare players from different eras. Bill Russell won 11 rings, but Boston had most of the talent at the time on their team.

I just think if you had TD on those Boston teams, they still win 11 rings.

Vice versa, the Spurs do not win 4 with Russell.

[K-State Spur]

How many of those 6 only got there because they played with him?

maybe a couple, but still somebody had to score for those teams and Russell didn't help as much on that end.

Most dominant defensive player ever, best all around player on 11 titles puts him in conversation for best ever.

I think a bigger qualifier on his titles is that it was a shorter path in his era and the league didn't have near the parity that it has now.

[Venti Quattro]

It is impossible to compare players from different eras. Bill Russell won 11 rings, but Boston had most of the talent at the time on their team.

I just think if you had TD on those Boston teams, they still win 11 rings.

Vice versa, the Spurs do not win 4 with Russell.

Bill Russell was in an era where power forwards and centers were smaller, and most of the NBA was white. It catered to a lot of era-specific advantages to him.

[temujin]

Has Kobe had a better career then Manu GNob?
And if GNob gets yet another legitimate Championship this year, is there any way Kome can catch him?

Can Kombe catch Pippen since he is now slipping to 3rd best player on his own team?

Legit questions.

Kobme vs Tim Duncan is not.

This.

Bryant would be reserve on an all Lakers team.
He is a small fraction of Lakers success.

Duncan Manu, MJ, Russell, Havlicek, Akeem were a huge/entire part of their teams' success.
They are in an entire differenrt category.

[temujin]

Bill Russell was in an era where power forwards and centers were smaller, and most of the NBA was white. It catered to a lot of era-specific advantages to him.

Yes and being black, in general, was a huge advantage in the US.

[temujin]

Bryant is stat machine, Wilt-like.
Three of his rings were from Shaq.
And from Horry.

[Venti Quattro]

This.

Bryant would be reserve on an all Lakers team.
He is a small fraction of Lakers success.

Duncan Manu, MJ, Russell, Havlicek, Akeem were a huge/entire part of their teams' success.
They are in an entire differenrt category.

:lmao :lmao :lmao

Kobe is going to start and finish over Jerry West in an all-Lakers lineup.

[coyotes_geek]

It is impossible to compare players from different eras. Bill Russell won 11 rings, but Boston had most of the talent at the time on their team.

I just think if you had TD on those Boston teams, they still win 11 rings.

Vice versa, the Spurs do not win 4 with Russell.


maybe a couple, but still somebody had to score for those teams and Russell didn't help as much on that end.

Most dominant defensive player ever, best all around player on 11 titles puts him in conversation for best ever.

I think a bigger qualifier on his titles is that it was a shorter path in his era and the league didn't have near the parity that it has now.

Fair points by you both. I agree with both of you. My only point to all this is that if you're trying to debate either that Duncan > Russell or that Russell shouldn't be in the top 10 you might as well be talking to a wall because the overwhelming majority of basketball followers are just going to fall back on 11 rings and not listen to anything else.

[temujin]

:lmao :lmao :lmao

Kobe is going to start and finish over Jerry West in an all-Lakers lineup.

:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol

He is coming off the bench AFTER Nixon and Coop and will be on the bench at the end of close games.

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

His low basketball IQ was on full display in the Thunders' series, once again.

Put Kobe in Utah and he is winning zero titles.
Fringe player.

[Venti Quattro]

Yeah, and watch him get abused by his contemporary counterparts :lmao :lmao :lmao

PG Magic; SG Kobe; SF Worthy; PF Kareem; C Shaq ... let's roll with that lineup and see how many teams can beat that. That lineup is going to liquidate the All-Spurs lineup. :lol :lol :lol

[tesseractive]

Yeah, and watch him get abused by his contemporary counterparts :lmao :lmao :lmao

PG Magic; SG Kobe; SF Worthy; PF Kareem; C Shaq ... let's roll with that lineup and see how many teams can beat that. That lineup is going to liquidate the All-Spurs lineup. :lol :lol :lol

I think Elgin Baylor wipes the floor with Big Game James.

All-Spurs Lineup:

PG Parker, SG Ginobili, SF Iceman, PF Duncan, C Robinson.

I could argue the frontcourt, but you've clearly got us in the backcourt. And with The Logo and late-career Wilt coming off your bench, it's just ridiculous.

I tell you what, though: that would be one hell of a game to watch.

[Vic Petro]

So if the Spurs win #5 this year does Duncan get credit for that ring, or does Tony Parker get credit for that one?

It would be Parker's ring...his first as the #1 option, which does wonders for his career profile and HoF case post retirement. Not too many PGs can say they were the keystone player to a championship team.

It would be Duncan's first ring as 2nd option, imo.

[temujin]

Yeah, and watch him get abused by his contemporary counterparts :lmao :lmao :lmao

PG Magic; SG Kobe; SF Worthy; PF Kareem; C Shaq ... let's roll with that lineup and see how many teams can beat that. That lineup is going to liquidate the All-Spurs lineup. :lol :lol :lol

:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol
maybe, if it's coached by me. Getting Bryant out of the game each and every time he doesn't dump the ball to the big fellas. Or everytime he stares at teammates as if they are shit.


Solo due idiozie ieri.
Way to go, ventiquattro, to keep up with your nickname on a daily basis.

:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol