Zimmerman the Black-hating racist

[GSH]

Here's more for all of the jackasses who jumped to conclusions without any facts. This really sounds like a guy who would stalk a kid, hoping to shoot and kill him because he was Black - doesn't it? The racist bastard obviously hates people of color.

Read the whole article, and you can really see why the Sanford Police have every reason to be nice to him. And BTW - before you do the usual smoke-and-mirrors attacks on the source, the original story was from the Associated Press. Fire away. We all know how racist and right-biased they are.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/05/24/George-Zimmerman-Black-Homeless-Man-Sanford-Police
We're learning today that just last year, at a public forum, George Zimmerman publicly testified against the Sanford police department in defense of a homeless black man. In other words, what we have here is more proof that the media narrative surrounding the shooting of Trayvon Martin might just end up being the most disgraced and failed media narrative since Duke-LaCrosse and the Tuscon murders.

Associated Press:
George Zimmerman accused the Sanford police department of corruption more than a year before he shot Trayvon Martin, saying at a public forum the agency covered up the beating of a black homeless man by the son of a white officer.

"I would just like to state that the law is written in black and white," Zimmerman said during a 90-second statement to city commissioners at a community forum. "It should not and cannot be enforced in the gray for those who are in the thin blue line."

The forum took place on Jan. 8, 2011, days after a video of the beating went viral on the Internet and then-Sanford Police Chief Brian Tooley was forced to retire. Tooley's department faced criticism for dragging its feet in arresting Justin Collison, the son of a police lieutenant.

[ChumpDumper]

Zimmerman charging a nepotism cover up?

Priceless.

[johnsmith]

Just think, if he had just done what the police told him to do and stayed in his vehicle, you'd have nothing to start a thread about.


But he didn't, and then he killed someone because he was humiliated for getting his ass handed to him.

[GSH]

Heh... even the usuall bottom-dwellers are running out of arguments other than "None of the facts matter, because WE know he's guilty."

I've done my job for the day. You fucktards have a little party over it.

[johnsmith]

Heh... even the usuall bottom-dwellers are running out of arguments other than "None of the facts matter, because WE know he's guilty."

I've done my job for the day. You fucktards have a little party over it.

You mean the fact that he killed the kid after getting beat up after he was told not to follow the kid?

That fact?

Which fact are you talking about?

[ChumpDumper]

Heh... even the usuall bottom-dwellers are running out of arguments other than "None of the facts matter, because WE know he's guilty."

I've done my job for the day. You fucktards have a little party over it.He profiled and stalked and killed a kid who didn't do anything.

That isn't cause for a party.

[johnsmith]

Cause the fact that I'm talking about doesn't really take into account racism, just the FACT that Zimmerman killed that kid when he was told not to even follow him.

[clambake]

this GSH guy is a riot!

i guess gsh stands for instant rage.

[George Gervin's Afro]

If I were GSH I would have run away from this thread like a b*tch also..

[ChumpDumper]

So was Zimmerman a community activist?

Did he have an axe to grind with certain members of the police department at that time?

Every time someone on his side attempts to help here, he just ends up looking more strange.

[clambake]

hell, he attacked a cop and only got community service.

is that kinda like an activist?

[johnsmith]

If I were GSH I would have run away from this thread like a b*tch also..

Nah, it's easier to come in, post some nonsense supporting the guy that killed a kid for being mean to him, thump your chest a few times, and then leave while calling everyone names.

It's very similar to the brave soul that drives by someone else, yells an insult out, and then drives off quickly.

[TeyshaBlue]

this GSH guy is a riot!

i guess gsh stands for instant rage.

:lol

[The_Worlds_finest]

Imagine if this turd zimmerman was a legit cop.

[cantthinkofanything]

Imagine if this turd zimmerman was a legit cop.

seriously? there's got to be thousands just like him and worse that are cops

[Yonivore]

Just think, if he had just done what the police told him to do and stayed in his vehicle, you'd have nothing to start a thread about.
When did the police tell him to stay in his vehicle?


But he didn't, and then he killed someone because he was humiliated for getting his ass handed to him.
Yeah, except that doesn't match the evidence.

[Yonivore]

You mean the fact that he killed the kid after getting beat up after he was told not to follow the kid?

That fact?
That's not a fact.

[Yonivore]

Nah, it's easier to come in, post some nonsense supporting the guy that killed a kid for being mean to him, thump your chest a few times, and then leave while calling everyone names.

It's very similar to the brave soul that drives by someone else, yells an insult out, and then drives off quickly.
I find it encouraging the Zimmerman haters at least admit he was the aggressor.

[Yonivore]

Cause the fact that I'm talking about doesn't really take into account racism, just the FACT that Zimmerman killed that kid when he was told not to even follow him.
Again, when was he told not to follow? And, if you construe the dispatcher's whine that "he didn't need to do that," as a command not to follow, where's your evidence he continued to follow after that point?

I'm also waiting for the support for your claim he was told to stay in his truck.

[clambake]

your boy is a liar.

[ChumpDumper]

I find it encouraging the Zimmerman haters at least admit he was the aggressor.Who? That can't be proved. All we know is Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked.

[ChumpDumper]

Again, when was he told not to follow? And, if you construe the dispatcher's whine that "he didn't need to do that," as a command not to follow, where's your evidence he continued to follow after that point?Eh, Zimmerman already broke regulations telling him to not carry a gun.

[clambake]

Eh, Zimmerman already broke regulations telling him to not carry a gun.

nobody puts george in the corner.

[Yonivore]

Who? That can't be proved. All we know is Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked.
With no evidence Martin had been touched by Zimmerman.

If you're getting your ass kicked and you believe you're about to be killed or seriously injured, you have the right to use whatever force necessary to end the assault.

Thanks counselor.

[Yonivore]

Eh, Zimmerman already broke regulations telling him to not carry a gun.
He had a CHL. What regulation?

[ChumpDumper]

With no evidence Martin had been touched by Zimmerman.No one said he was good at fighting.


If you're getting your ass kicked and you believe you're about to be killed or seriously injured, you have the right to use whatever force necessary to end the assault.

Thanks counselor.Yeah, Martin was doing just that.

Thanks, counselor.

[cantthinkofanything]

No one said he was good at fighting.

Yeah, Martin was doing just that.

Thanks, counselor.

So what? Maybe they both feared for their lives. Unfortunately, Zimmerman had a gun. So no matter what a piece of shit Zimmerman may be and no matter if Travon was not doing anything wrong, it seems Zimmerman was acting within the law.

[Yonivore]

No one said he was good at fighting.
No one said he even assaulted Martin.


Yeah, Martin was doing just that.

Thanks, counselor.
So, you contend it was Martin getting his ass kicked? Where's your evidence?

[ChumpDumper]

No one said he even assaulted Martin.No one saw any initial assault.



So, you contend it was Martin getting his ass kicked? Where's your evidence?He was trying to end the assault with all necessary force.

[Yonivore]

No one saw any initial assault.
You're right.


He was trying to end the assault with all necessary force.
What assault? You just said no one saw Zimmerman assault Martin.

[clambake]

you said it was ok to defend yourself if you're in fear of serious injury or death.

martin did the best he could to defend his life. tuff business when you're gunned by a guy that stalked you down.

[ChumpDumper]

You're right.So you're wrong.



What assault? You just said no one saw Zimmerman assault Martin.But you said Martin assaulted Zimmerman.

You were wrong.

[Yonivore]

you said it was ok to defend yourself if you're in fear of serious injury or death.

martin did the best he could to defend his life. tuff business when you're gunned by a guy that stalked you down.
I really hope the Prosecutors lead with this reasoning...

There is absolutely zero evidence Martin's life was in danger before he started beating Zimmerman's head against the concrete.

There is absolutely zero evidence Martin even knew Zimmerman was armed before he broke his nose, jumped him, and started wailing on him MMA-style.

There is absolutely zero evidence to support your version of events. None.

[Yonivore]

So you're wrong.
No, we're both right. No one saw any initial assault.


But you said Martin assaulted Zimmerman.
He did.


You were wrong.
No.

[The_Worlds_finest]

seriously? there's got to be thousands just like him and worse that are cops

Shit I didn't mean a cop at this incident, obviously he would have been in the right. What I ment was what type of shit this guy would run if he was a cop.

[ChumpDumper]

No, we're both right. No one saw any initial assault.No, you're wrong.



He did.May have only been using necessary force to stop an assault.



No.Yes.

You just want to turn the unknowns into Zimmerman's favor because you are horribly biased.

[Yonivore]

No, you're wrong.
How so?

The only assault witnessed was Martin's on Zimmerman. For all we know, that was the initial assault.


May have only been using necessary force to stop an assault.
Where's your evidence Zimmerman was the first to assault Martin?



Yes.

You just want to turn the unknowns into Zimmerman's favor because you are horribly biased.
The knowns are in Zimmerman's favor. The unknowns are unknown.

[ChumpDumper]

How so?

The only assault witnessed was Martin's on Zimmerman's. For all we know, that was the initial assault.For all we know, it was a response to an inital assault.



Where's your evidence Zimmerman was the first to assault Martin?There is as much evidence he initiated the assault as there is Martin's initiating the assault.



The knowns are in Zimmerman's favor. The unknowns are unknown.yoni is in Zimmerman's favor, therefore yoni makes all the unknowns in Zimmerman's favor.

[clambake]

mma style lol

[The_Worlds_finest]

Gents, What is zimmermans defense?
Here is the stand your ground law.
Florida

2011 Florida Statutes CHAPTER 776 JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE[22]

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or (2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.
776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.—

(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and (b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
(2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person; or (b) The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or (c) The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or (d) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.
(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

(4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person’s dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.

(5) As used in this section, the term:
(a) “Dwelling” means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people lodging therein at night. (b) “Residence” means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest. (c) “Vehicle” means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport people or property.
776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.

(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).

776.041 Use of force by aggressor. —The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or (b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

[Yonivore]

Gents, What is zimmermans defense?
Here is the stand your ground law.
Actually, there's no such thing as a Florida "Stand Your Ground" law. You've posted a portion of the state's justifiable use of force statute.

I believe Zimmerman is claiming he is "776.012...justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat..." because, "(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself..."

Incidentally, at the time Zimmerman claims he used deadly force, he was unable to retreat even if he had wanted to.

To the extent his defense will invoke the stand your ground provision of the law, I think it will pertain to him not having an obligation to 1) stop following a suspicious person and, 2) retreat when he finally encountered Martin.

[TheSkeptic]

I really hope the Prosecutors lead with this reasoning...

There is absolutely zero evidence Martin's life was in danger before he started beating Zimmerman's head against the concrete.

There is absolutely zero evidence Martin even knew Zimmerman was armed before he broke his nose, jumped him, and started wailing on him MMA-style.

There is absolutely zero evidence to support your version of events. None.

Not sure why people keep using this one when the investigator already said that the concrete head-bashing part didn't happen at the bond hearing.

[Yonivore]

Not sure why people keep using this one when the investigator already said that the concrete head-bashing part didn't happen.
Well, whatever he was having his head bashed against, caused a severe laceration and contusions to the back of his head.

But, in what report did the investigator say this?

[ChumpDumper]

lol severe

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Did the cuts require stitches?

[MannyIsGod]

This is what happens when someone who desperately wants to be a god damn action hero has a gun and acts irresponsibly. I don't know if he's racist or not and I don't care because it really doesn't matter.

[clambake]

Did the cuts require stitches?

they were too severe for stitches. they had to grow an extra scalp on a mouses ear.

[Yonivore]

Did the cuts require stitches?
Concussions don't require stitches.

[clambake]

Concussions don't require stitches.

he didn't have one of those either.

[Yonivore]

For all we know, it was a response to an inital assault.
Actually, the best information we have says Zimmerman was responding to an assault, not Martin.


There is as much evidence he initiated the assault as there is Martin's initiating the assault.
Not true.

Injuries to Zimmerman indicate he was assaulted. Martin has no such injuries.


yoni is in Zimmerman's favor, therefore yoni makes all the unknowns in Zimmerman's favor.
The knowns are already in his favor.

[clambake]

yoni was gracious enough to give poor george a concussion. that will help.

[ChumpDumper]

Concussions don't require stitches.:lol if the known is not in Zimmerman's favor, lie.


Actually, the best information we have says Zimmerman was responding to an assault, not Martin.It's unknown, so you make it in favor of Zimmerman.



Not true.

Injuries to Zimmerman indicate he was assaulted. Martin has no such injuries.I didn't say Zimmerman was good at assaulting or stalking.



The knowns are already in his favor.So why do you lie to make the knowns and unknowns in his favor?

[Yonivore]

yoni was gracious enough to give poor george a concussion. that will help.
Zimmeman's injuries were consistent with Zimmerman's claim that if an assault that caused them had continued it would be reasonable to believe he would likely face serious bodily injury or death. Perhaps the only reason his injuries weren't worse is because he shot and killed his attacker.

The justifiable use of force statute doesn't require you to actually suffer the death or severe bodily injury before you repel the attack with justifiable deadly force.

[ChumpDumper]

Zimmeman's injuries were consistent with Zimmerman's claim that if an assault that caused them had continued it would be reasonable to believe he would likely face serious bodily injury or death. Perhaps the only reason his injuries weren't worse is because he shot and killed his attacker.

The justifiable use of force statute doesn't require you to actually suffer the death or severe bodily injury before you repel the attack with justifiable deadly force.So did the "severe lacerations" (your words) require stitches?

[clambake]

Zimmeman's injuries were consistent with Zimmerman's claim that if an assault that caused them had continued it would be reasonable to believe he would likely face serious bodily injury or death. Perhaps the only reason his injuries weren't worse is because he shot and killed his attacker.

The justifiable use of force statute doesn't require you to actually suffer the death or severe bodily injury before you repel the attack with justifiable deadly force.

nope, you implied that george got a concussion.

i think you take personal gratification from what george did. remembering what happened at the pump and all.

[Yonivore]

:lol if the known is not in Zimmerman's favor, lie.
I was countering the argument that stitches would be required for the lacerations to have been severe. The lacerations are an indicator the back of his head was subjected to trauma. The person on the receiving end of the trauma would be the best judge of whether or not -- as the traumas was being inflicted -- it was reasonable to believe it would rise to a level to cause him serious bodily injury or death.


It's unknown, so you make it in favor of Zimmerman.
What evidence is in Martin's favor?

Did he suffer any injuries related to being assaulted by Zimmerman before Zimmerman shot him?


I didn't say Zimmerman was good at assaulting or stalking.
You have no proof he did either.


So why do you lie to make the knowns and unknowns in his favor?
No lie. The knowns are in his favor.

[TheSkeptic]

Well, whatever he was having his head bashed against, caused a severe laceration and contusions to the back of his head.

But, in what report did the investigator say this?

It was at the bond hearing. I linked to it a few times in that other thread.

Sure the hit caused a few scratches consistent with a scuffle (has anyone claimed there wasn't a struggle?) but the investigator said himself that the repeated head banging into concrete part wasn't consistent with the evidence they found.

Head wounds bleed a lot after all and unless you're going to argue that the paramedics were incompetent (which you could and I wouldn't believe you) I'm just inclined to think that the injuries overall weren't as serious as Zimmerman wanted us to believe.

Since his injuries didn't appear to be life threatening and a broken nose wouldn't change that, to me that means Zimmerman brought a gun to a fistfight that he instigated by chasing after a kid who was trying to get away. That's got to be some form of manslaughter at the very least.

[ChumpDumper]

I was countering the argument that stitches would be required for the lacerations to have been severe. The lacerations are an indicator the back of his head was subjected to trauma. The person on the receiving end of the trauma would be the best judge of whether or not -- as the traumas was being inflicted -- it was reasonable to believe it would rise to a level to cause him serious bodily injury or death.So your definition of severe is pretty heavily exaggerated because of your bias.



What evidence is in Martin's favor?Unknowns are automatically made in Zimmerman's favor by you because of your bias.


Did he suffer any injuries related to being assaulted by Zimmerman before Zimmerman shot him?No one said Zimmerman was good at stealth or fighting.



You have no proof he did either.And? It's an unknown, but certainly a possibility. Your bias prevents you from admitting even that.



No lie. The knowns are in his favor.Of course you lie. You always have, TRO.

[Yonivore]

It was at the bond hearing. I linked to it a few times in that other thread.

Sure the hit caused a few scratches consistent with a scuffle (has anyone claimed there wasn't a struggle?) but the investigator said himself that the repeated head banging into concrete part wasn't consistent with the evidence they found.

Head wounds bleed a lot after all and unless you're going to argue that the paramedics were incompetent (which you could and I wouldn't believe you) I'm just inclined to think that the injuries overall weren't as serious as Zimmerman wanted us to believe.
They weren't scratches, either. So, what would his injuries have been if he hadn't stopped Martin by shooting him?


Since his injuries didn't appear to be life threatening and a broken nose wouldn't change that,...
That's not the question to be answered in a justifiable use of force defense. Is it reasonable to believe, had he not used deadly force, he would have suffered severe bodily injury or death?

A broken nose and lacerations to the back of your head with any disorientation resulting from having your head assaulted might lead someone to reasonably believe that.


...to me that means Zimmerman brought a gun to a fistfight...
Zimmerman took a gun everywhere.


...that he instigated by chasing after a kid...
Following isn't chasing. And, there's no evidence he instigated or chased.


...who was trying to get away.
When did Zimmerman catch Martin? He had lost sight of him by about halfway through the conversation with police and it went on for another 2 minutes or so after that.


That's got to be some form of manslaughter at the very least.
Only if it were supported by the evidence.

[clambake]

tell us more about his concussion.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Did he not have stitches then? The reason why I asked is because you guys are asking about the severity of a cut. Like when Griffin bit through his face in the playoffs they talked about how he had 2 stitches inside and outside his mouth. Thast typical vernacular to refer to the number of stitches as to severity. If he had none then it probably wasn't all that severe.

You can argue about what justifies what all day long. It is what it is.

[TheSkeptic]

@ Yoni

Under the circumstances no it wasn't reasonable.

You're also shifting the goalposts a little bit to go from "Zimmerman feared for his life because his head was getting bashed into the concrete" to "It was probably reasonable for him to fear for his life" when clearly it's been proven that the concrete bashing didn't happen and that his injuries weren't serious enough to justify the use of deadly force (in a place where equal force laws are in place).

I'll bet that the reality is that Zimmerman had just never been in an actual fight before (at least not without back-up of some kind) and he panicked. None of that would've happened if he hadn't gotten out of his car to chase a kid that was running away and because of the phone records to Trayvon's female friend I'm extremely unconvinced about the doubling back story either. Especially since Zimmerman's lawyer doesn't even claim that part happened.

[Th'Pusher]

They weren't scratches, either. So, what would his injuries have been if he hadn't stopped Martin by shooting him?


That's not the question to be answered in a justifiable use of force defense. Is it reasonable to believe, had he not used deadly force, he would have suffered severe bodily injury or death?

A broken nose and lacerations to the back of your head with any disorientation resulting from having your head assaulted might lead someone to reasonably believe that.


Zimmerman took a gun everywhere.


Following isn't chasing. And, there's no evidence he instigated or chased.


When did Zimmerman catch Martin? He had lost sight of him by about halfway through the conversation with police and it went on for another 2 minutes or so after that.


Only if it were supported by the evidence.

Was Zimmerman not charged with 2nd degree murder? Obviously someone feels there is evidence to support it.

[MannyIsGod]

Is there even a reasonable MO out there for Martin to have attacked Zimmerman?

[TheSkeptic]

If Zimmerman went to his family doctor the following day, is that allowed into evidence at all?

The broken nose and black eyes could very well have come from Trayvon but with that much of a lapse how does the jury know that he didn't walk home, trip on a step, and hit his nose on a door knob or something?

[Yonivore]

@ Yoni

Under the circumstances no it wasn't reasonable.

You're also shifting the goalposts a little bit to go from "Zimmerman feared for his life because his head was getting bashed into the concrete" to "It was probably reasonable for him to fear for his life" when clearly it's been proven that the concrete bashing didn't happen and that his injuries weren't serious enough to justify the use of deadly force (in a place where equal force laws are in place).
You're right, I am changing the goalposts. I had believed his injuries occurred from having his head hit against concrete. I don't recall where I heard that and -- other than unsubstantiated refutations in this forum -- I hadn't seen anything contrary to that. That still doesn't mean the assault that caused the injuries -- however incurred -- didn't lead Zimmerman to reasonably believe that, if the assault continued, he would be seriously injured or killed.


I'll bet that the reality is that Zimmerman had just never been in an actual fight before (at least not without back-up of some kind) and he panicked.
Not sure what any of that has to do with Zimmerman being guilty of any crime. The fact remains, an altercation occurred. Zimmerman claims he believed he was going to be seriously injured or killed if the assault continued so he shot Martin. None of the evidence points to another scenario.


None of that would've happened if...
And, if frogs had wings they wouldn't bump their asses when they jumped.


...if he hadn't gotten out of his car to chase...
Follow.


...a kid...
Suspicious person who was walking through a neighborhood that had experienced a bunch of crime, in the rain, appearing to be intoxicated, and looking at houses.


...that was running away...
Why? Incidentally, Martin wasn't running until after Zimmerman told the 911 call taker that the suspicious person was approaching him, while sitting in his truck, talking to them. It was only after Martin approached Zimmerman in the truck that he decided to run. Why? What did Zimmerman do (remember, he was on the phone and being recorded) to cause Martin to change his course and flee?


...and because of the phone records to Trayvon's female friend I'm extremely unconvinced about the doubling back story either. Especially since Zimmerman's lawyer doesn't even claim that part happened.
So, how did Zimmerman catch Martin after hanging up with the police? He certainly doesn't sound like he's running during the phone call. And, he states, about halfway through the call, that he's lost sight of Martin.

What about the girlfriend call leaves you "extremely unconvinced" he could have doubled back?

How much time transpired between the time Zimmerman ended the call with police and the girlfriend hears the beginning of an altercation?

[Yonivore]

If Zimmerman went to his family doctor the following day, is that allowed into evidence at all?

The broken nose and black eyes could very well have come from Trayvon but with that much of a lapse how does the jury know that he didn't walk home, trip on a step, and hit his nose on a door knob or something?
Contemporaneous police reports recorded from observations made immediately after the shooting indicate Zimmerman had both a "possible" broken nose and injuries to the back of his head.

[Yonivore]

Is there even a reasonable MO out there for Martin to have attacked Zimmerman?
Yes.

He was pissed about Zimmerman watching him and calling the police to report him as suspicious and decided to teach Zimmerman a fucking lesson.

[Th'Pusher]

The fact remains, an altercation occurred. Zimmerman claims he believed he was going to be seriously injured or killed if the assault continued so he shot Martin. None of the evidence points to another scenario.


Then why was Zimmerman charged with 2nd degree murder?

[clambake]

Yes.

He was pissed about Zimmerman watching him and calling the police to report him as suspicious and decided to teach Zimmerman a fucking lesson.

:lmao he was being stalked.

[clambake]

was anyone here invited to george's 50K party?

[TheSkeptic]

Contemporaneous police reports recorded from observations made immediately after the shooting indicate Zimmerman had both a "possible" broken nose and injuries to the back of his head.

Well that makes sense then.


Yes.

He was pissed about Zimmerman watching him and calling the police to report him as suspicious and decided to teach Zimmerman a fucking lesson.

Trayvon ran away and he was also on the phone up until a few minutes before he died. Between that and the location of the body I highly doubt Martin ran back and blindsided Zimmerman in order to "teach him a lesson". The kid wouldn't even have known that Zimmerman called the police.

What you're failing to appreciate here is that not every black person has a chip on their shoulder. In fact, very few people of any colour think the way you seem to believe Martin did. Not even O'Mara is claiming that scenario so I'm not sure why so many Zimmerman supporters are favouring that line of thinking.

[clambake]

yoni's line of thinking goes way back to the pump.

[jack sommerset]

Nice post from OP. I won't be surprise if this case never sees a courtroom. God bless

[Yonivore]

Well that makes sense then.

Trayvon ran away and he was also on the phone up until a few minutesbefore he died.
I suspect it was more like mere moments because of the way the girlfriend describing the call being disconnected as the altercation began. I doubt the altercation lasted more than a minute before Martin was shot.


Between that and the location of the body I highly doubt Martin ran back and blindsided Zimmerman in order to "teach him a lesson".
The location of the shooting was close to where Zimmerman's vehicle was parked. Considering the duration of the call with police, and the amount of time that passed after Zimmerman exclaimed, "Shit, he ran," Martin would have to have been running in circles around the buildings to arrive back at the place where he died. At the very least, it couldn't have been the first time he had been near there.


The kid wouldn't even have known that Zimmerman called the police.
I think it's possible Martin knew he was talking to someone on the phone. If you have read the transcript of the call, Zimmerman describes Martin approaching him with something in his hand right before Martin broke and ran away. If Zimmerman was standing outside his vehicle when Martin approached, broke, and ran; it is possible he knew Zimmerman was talking to police. If Zimmerman was in his vehicle with the window up, I'm at a loss to explain why Martin's actions suddenly changed.

Why did Martin run?


What you're failing to appreciate here is that not every black person has a chip on their shoulder. In fact, very few people of any colour think the way you seem to believe Martin did. Not even O'Mara is claiming that scenario so I'm not sure why so many Zimmerman supporters are favouring that line of thinking.
Manny asked for a plausible MO. Not every black person has to have a chip on their shoulder for Martin to have had one.

[clambake]

i'd have a chip if i were being stalked.

[clambake]

now yoni has martin running around in circles. lol

[Yonivore]

http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/large_lightbox/hash/b3/17/b317c977ec36142af137729b3cb841a8.png
How long does it take to run from point 3 to point 5?

[clambake]

http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/large_lightbox/hash/b3/17/b317c977ec36142af137729b3cb841a8.png
How long does it take to run from point 3 to point 5?

as long as it took for george to make it up.

[TheSkeptic]

He ran because he was being followed by car and then Zimmerman got out of his car to run after him? He was probably afraid and trying to avoid a confrontation which makes it highly implausible that his motivations would suddenly have changed.

[Yonivore]

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/120517-zimmerman-hmed2-341.380%3B380%3B7%3B70.jpg
More than scratches.

[TheSkeptic]

http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/large_lightbox/hash/b3/17/b317c977ec36142af137729b3cb841a8.png
How long does it take to run from point 3 to point 5?

Longer than the time between the phone call and Trayvon's death imo. It also looks like the kid was trying to go home in that map. That makes it even less likely to me that he circled around.

[clambake]

nice presentation, yoni. the kids just trying to get home.

why is the truck location "presumed"?

oh, and its not his truck. its daddy's truck.

[TheSkeptic]

Head wounds bleed a lot Yoni. Unless he got stitches I'm still inclined to say that they weren't that serious and that they certainly weren't life-threatening. Even then the need for stitches doesn't necessarily mean that deadly force was needed in this case.

[Yonivore]

He ran because he was being followed by car and then Zimmerman got out of his car to run after him?
During the police call Zimmerman indicates he is stationary when Martin takes off running.


He was probably afraid and trying to avoid a confrontation which makes it highly implausible that his motivations would suddenly have changed.
Why did he first approach Zimmerman and then run? Or, is that a lie and a very good bit of acting on the part of George Zimmerman, during the phone call?

[clambake]

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/120517-zimmerman-hmed2-341.380%3B380%3B7%3B70.jpg
More than scratches.

nope, how many stitches?

and tell us more about the concussion you gave george.

[Yonivore]

Head wounds bleed a lot Yoni. Unless he got stitches I'm still inclined to say that they weren't that serious and certainly not life-threatening.
I'm not looking at the blood. I'm looking at the length and amount of insulted tissue on that one laceration running vertically. What caused it?

[TheSkeptic]

During the police call Zimmerman indicates he is stationary when Martin takes off running.


He'd already followed the kid by car at that point though. He probably stopped the truck because he was on the phone with the police.



Why did he first approach Zimmerman and then run? Or, is that a lie and a very good bit of acting on the part of George Zimmerman, during the phone call?

Judging by that map it looks more like he would've had to pass the truck in order to get home. Going by the girlfriend's testimony Trayvon probably decided to cut into that pathway so that Zimmerman's truck wouldn't be able to follow him home as well. At least in part.

[clambake]

During the police call Zimmerman indicates he is stationary when Martin takes off running.
but we already know that george lies.



Why did he first approach Zimmerman and then run? Or, is that a lie and a very good bit of acting on the part of George Zimmerman, during the phone call?
caught lying does not = good acting.

[Yonivore]

He'd already followed the kid by car at that point though. He probably stopped the truck because he was on the phone with the police.
Which means he was stationary when Martin took off running.


Judging by that map it looks more like he would've had to pass the truck in order to get home. Going by the girlfriend's testimony Trayvon probably decided to cut into that pathway so that Zimmerman's truck wouldn't be able to follow him home as well. At least in part.
No argument here.

So, was it some kind of slow-motion chase for Zimmerman and Martin to end up at point #5? Because, if I recall, Zimmerman was on the phone with police for over a minute longer -- after Martin took off running.

[TheSkeptic]

I'm not looking at the blood. I'm looking at the length and amount of insulted tissue on that one laceration running vertically. What caused it?

Nobody's saying that there wasn't a fight or that Zimmerman didn't sustain injuries during the altercation.

But if those injuries aren't consistent with the head pounding he claimed *and* they were able to treat him at the scene without sending him to the hospital or anything I just don't buy the idea that Zimmerman was the victim of a barbaric beating and that his only course of action was to shoot his opponent.

For the most part I'm waiting until the actual trial because a lot of these arguments make Zimmerman look worse imo.

[Yonivore]

Nobody's saying that there wasn't a fight or that Zimmerman didn't sustain injuries during the altercation.

But if those injuries aren't consistent with the head pounding he claimed *and* they were able to treat him at the scene without sending him to the hospital or anything I just don't buy the idea that Zimmerman was the victim of a barbaric beating and that his only course of action was to shoot his opponent.
Can you see the contusions above the cut? And, there is another laceration out of frame. He was also hit hard enough to fracture his nose.

I buy the idea Zimmerman was in the process of receiving a barbaric beating and ended it with a bullet.


For the most part I'm waiting until the actual trial because a lot of these arguments make Zimmerman look worse imo.
D'okie dokie.

[clambake]

don't forget about the concussion you gave him. lol

[Yonivore]

Longer than the time between the phone call and Trayvon's death imo. It also looks like the kid was trying to go home in that map. That makes it even less likely to me that he circled around.

From the transcript:

At 2:08 into the call...

Zimmerman:

Yeah. You go in straight through the entrance and then you would go left. You go straight in, don’t turn and make a left.

He’s running. [2:08]

At 4:07 into the call, 1 minute and 59 seconds later.

Zimmerman:

Thanks.

911 dispatcher:

You’re welcome.

Call ends 4:07

You're telling me Trayvon Martin couldn't run further than point #5 in 1 minute and 59 seconds?

[clambake]

who said he was running, yoni?

[Yonivore]

Here's a wider view of the neighborhood and, I can tell you as an old fat man, I can run from the front gate to the back gate of that community in less than two minutes.

A 17 year-old football player could probably do it in less than a minute.

From point 3 to point 5 is nothing.

http://www.woodswell.com/images/map-google.jpg

[clambake]

george said he was running.

george is a known liar.

[Yonivore]

who said he was running, yoni?
You're suggesting Zimmerman was doing a little acting during the 911 call?

Well, that would certainly indicate premeditation.

Even so, I could crawl from point 3 to point 5 in less than two minutes.

[clambake]

You're suggesting Zimmerman was doing a little acting during the 911 call?

Well, that would certainly indicate premeditation.

Even so, I could crawl from point 3 to point 5 in less than two minutes.

you wouldn't have to.

you're not the target george was after.

[TheSkeptic]

Can you see the contusions above the cut? And, there is another laceration out of frame. He was also hit hard enough to fracture his nose.

I buy the idea Zimmerman was in the process of receiving a barbaric beating and ended it with a bullet.

Still doesn't mean his life was in danger.

The paramedics would've sent him to the hospital if that was the case. I won't claim to be an expert here but I'm pretty sure that EMTs and Paramedics don't let someone go to the police station for questioning if there's concerns about a concussion (let alone one that could have made him a vegetable for life) and/or a need for stitches and what have you.

I find that significant because Zimmerman's the one who said that he was receiving and had already been on the receiving end of a horrific beating by the time he pulled the trigger to save himself.

All that those photos prove is that there was an altercation which I don't think anyone has denied. Either Zimmerman didn't realize that his injuries weren't that serious and panicked or he's lying about what happened.



D'okie dokie.

No arguing here since I'm just curious, but is this a common saying or just something you personally use? I'm used to seeing "Okie dokie"...


From the transcript:

At 2:08 into the call...


At 4:07 into the call, 1 minute and 59 seconds later.


You're telling me Trayvon Martin couldn't run further than point #5 in 1 minute and 59 seconds?

I was talking about Trayvon's phone records which showed that he was on the phone according to what I've read.

[TheSkeptic]

For the record I'm taking the "no concussion, no stitches, fixed with basic first aid and a band aid = scratch" definition. I'm not sure about the medical terms but to me that's more like falling out of a tree and scraping something levels of seriousness than a terrible beatdown.

[Yonivore]

Still doesn't mean his life was in danger.
That's your opinion.

The law only requires Zimmerman to believe he was in danger of serious bodily injury or death.


The paramedics would've sent him to the hospital if that was the case. I won't claim to be an expert here but I'm pretty sure that EMTs and Paramedics don't let someone go to the police station for questioning if there's concerns about a concussion (let alone one that could have made him a vegetable for life) and/or a need for stitches and what have you.
Having been one, and somewhat of an expert (albeit some years back) I can tell you Paramedics have absolutely no power to force an injured person to seek medical care if that persons refuses medical treatment.


I find that significant because Zimmerman's the one who said that he was receiving and had already been on the receiving end of a horrific beating by the time he pulled the trigger to save himself.
I don't find it odd at all and, inserting the words "by the time he pulled the trigger" exceed the scope of the law again. All Zimmerman has to claim, and I don't know what he's specifically said about the incident, is that he believed he would be killed or seriously injured if he didn't use deadly force. He doesn't have to claim he had already been seriously injured (or killed).

All a jury has to believe is that it was reasonable to believe that.


All that those photos prove is that there was an altercation which I don't think anyone has denied. Either Zimmerman didn't realize that his injuries weren't that serious and panicked or he's lying about what happened.
The injuries are consistent with the account attributed to Zimmerman, and the evidence known to the public.


No arguing here since I'm just curious, but is this a common saying or just something you personally use? I'm used to seeing "Okie dokie"...
Heard it somewhere.


I was talking about Trayvon's phone records which showed that he was on the phone according to what I've read.
Well, since the altercation appears to be what ended the phone call to his girlfriend, I'd say you're right, he didn't have time to run from point 3 to point 5 before being shot.

But, the call with his girlfriend didn't end when Zimmerman was on the phone with police as he sat stationary at point #3 and exclaimed Martin was running and I doubt it ended before Zimmerman got off the phone with police 1 minute and 59 seconds later. Plenty of time for Martin to run a damn long way.

How'd he end up at point #5 at the end of his conversation with his girlfriend?

[Yonivore]

For the record I'm taking the "no concussion, no stitches, fixed with basic first aid and a band aid = scratch" definition. I'm not sure about the medical terms but to me that's more like falling out of a tree and scraping something levels of seriousness than a terrible beatdown.
You're still conflating the seriousness of the external injuries with the potential seriousness of the injuries Zimmerman believed he would endure if Martin continued to beat him.

What if, instead of beating him, breaking his nose, and cutting his head up a bit, Martin had been strangling him? The external injuries from a strangulation interrupted by deadly force would have appeared even less traumatic than what Zimmerman received.

[Blake]

conflating!

[TheSkeptic]

That's your opinion.

The law only requires Zimmerman to believe he was in danger of serious bodily injury or death.

Not exactly. The law seems to say that a person has to have reasonable fear of serious bodily injury or death.



Having been one, and somewhat of an expert (albeit some years back) I can tell you Paramedics have absolutely no power to force an injured person to seek medical care if that persons refuses medical treatment.


But if Zimmerman is suffering from a concussion or otherwise showing signs that he's in need of serious medical help I would think they'd at least take note of the fact that stitches/emergency care were required before he refused right?


I don't find it odd at all and, inserting the words "by the time he pulled the trigger" exceed the scope of the law again. All Zimmerman has to claim, and I don't know what he's specifically said about the incident, is that he believed he would be killed or seriously injured if he didn't use deadly force. He doesn't have to claim he had already been seriously injured (or killed).


I'm sure his actions are subject to the "reasonable person" standard. That's why he's going to court to prove that his use of deadly force was justified. If him saying he believed is enough then there's no need for a trial and they might as well open up an assassin's guild in Florida.


All a jury has to believe is that it was reasonable to believe that.


Not exactly. The jury has to believe that his use of deadly force was justified and therefore self-defense in the case of SYG. If they think that it isn't self defense they also have to evaluate whether or not Murder 2 as opposed to a lesser charge is an appropriate sentence.


The injuries are consistent with the account attributed to Zimmerman, and the evidence known to the public.


No they're not. It was Zimmerman who said his head was being beaten repeatedly into the sidewalk and we know that isn't what happened. We were also told that Zimmerman suffered serious injuries as a result of his being beaten up and we haven't seen evidence of that either. No stitches, no concussion, treated at the scene.


Heard it somewhere.


I see.


Well, since the altercation appears to be what ended the phone call to his girlfriend, I'd say you're right, he didn't have time to run from point 3 to point 5 before being shot.

Exactly.


But, the call with his girlfriend didn't end when Zimmerman was on the phone with police as he sat stationary at point #3 and exclaimed Martin was running and I doubt it ended before Zimmerman got off the phone with police 1 minute and 59 seconds later. Plenty of time for Martin to run a damn long way.


If he was staying with his father but wasn't completely familiar with the neighbourhood he could've slowed down to make sure he knew where he was going as well. Maybe he figured he was safe and wanted to extend his conversation. Maybe he wasn't expecting to be shot in a gated community.

If Zimmerman had a right to be walking on the sidewalk and "following" someone, there's no reason why Trayvon couldn't walk slowly and talk on the phone. He still wasn't doing anything criminal.


How'd he end up at point #5 at the end of his conversation with his girlfriend?


How did Zimmerman end up at point #5 when he was supposedly going back to his truck?

Tbh I would assume that both Trayvon and Zimmerman got there on foot.

[TheSkeptic]

You're still conflating the seriousness of the external injuries with the potential seriousness of the injuries Zimmerman believed he would endure if Martin continued to beat him.

Because Zimmerman's the one who said his injuries were serious. So serious that he had no choice but to shoot the teenager he had been following.


What if, instead of beating him, breaking his nose, and cutting his head up a bit, Martin had been strangling him? The external injuries from a strangulation interrupted by deadly force would have appeared even less traumatic than what Zimmerman received.


And we would've seen evidence of that if it had happened and Zimmerman actually had been strangled.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It makes sense that the prosecution would find a disconnect between one getting one's head repeatedly beaten against the concrete and a cut that does not even require stitches.

This notion combined with Zimmerman's withholding of financial information during the bail proceedings does paint a picture of someone willing to use deception to avoid incarceration.

Really though we are arguing about something that none of us have the information on. I am sure that a medical examiner looked at Zimmerman and Martin's body immediately after the shooting and its that report that matters.

Does anybody have that report?

[The_Worlds_finest]

The law only requires Zimmerman to believe he was in danger of serious bodily injury or death.


Has zimmerman trained in any self defense arts? He wanted to be a cop..

[vander]

It makes sense that the prosecution would find a disconnect between one getting one's head repeatedly beaten against the concrete and a cut that does not even require stitches.

This notion combined with Zimmerman's withholding of financial information during the bail proceedings does paint a picture of someone willing to use deception to avoid incarceration.

Really though we are arguing about something that none of us have the information on. I am sure that a medical examiner looked at Zimmerman and Martin's body immediately after the shooting and its that report that matters.

Does anybody have that report?

NBC has it, and they're reporting clear evidence of racism in the gunshot wound. whereas the injuries sustained by the white Hispanic were possibly self inflicted as part of a grand evil racist scheme.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I don't believe paranoia is justification for homicide. I can put that in bold too if that makes it more compelling.

[mavs>spurs]

trigger happy and over zealous, would have made a fine cop :tu

[FuzzyLumpkins]

NBC has it, and they're reporting clear evidence of racism in the gunshot wound. whereas the injuries sustained by the white Hispanic were possibly self inflicted as part of a grand evil racist scheme.

Do you normally display emotional angst in this manner?

Unless its a report or interview directly from those that are a part of the actual crime and its subsequent investigation then who cares? NBC being asshats does not exonerate Zimmerman any more than it implicates him.

[Yonivore]

Not exactly. The law seems to say that a person has to have reasonable fear of serious bodily injury or death.
Whether it was reasonable will be determined by the court. But, if that's over what we're arguing, this isn't a 2nd Degree Murder.


But if Zimmerman is suffering from a concussion or otherwise showing signs that he's in need of serious medical help I would think they'd at least take note of the fact that stitches/emergency care were required before he refused right?
I haven't seen the medics reports but, yes, they would indicate whether or not he refused treatment for wounds the judged required further treatment. In most cases, we would ask the person to sign a refusal for transport.

There's no indication Zimmerman refused treatment; just that he declined to be taken to the hospital.

I've seen people in the middle of a heart attack refuse transport. They usually change their mind or the process progresses to a point where they're no longer able to make that judgment and we transport anyway.

No one is claiming Zimmerman suffered life-threatening injuries and I wouldn't have any heartburn over a patient refusing transport over similar injuries. I've seen worse in car accidents and, even though I was concerned about closed head injuries, I had no power to force the injured into the back of an ambulance and take them to the hospital.

At best, I would advise them to seek medical attention on their own, telling them the signs and symptoms of the onset of a closed head injury (or whatever other more serious condition could underlie the type injury they presented).


I'm sure his actions are subject to the "reasonable person" standard. That's why he's going to court to prove that his use of deadly force was justified. If him saying he believed is enough then there's no need for a trial and they might as well open up an assassin's guild in Florida.
No, he's going to court because a prosecutor has charged him with murder. No reasonableness standard there.


Not exactly. The jury has to believe that his use of deadly force was justified and therefore self-defense in the case of SYG. If they think that it isn't self defense they also have to evaluate whether or not Murder 2 as opposed to a lesser charge is an appropriate sentence.
And they do that by making the determination a reasonable person would have acted in the same manner, under similar circumstances. To be quite honest, I don't know where SYG comes into play unless the defense is claiming Zimmerman had no obligation stay in his truck and no duty to retreat in the moments after he encountered Martin but before Martin had him pinned to the ground and, therefore, no longer able to retreat.


No they're not. It was Zimmerman who said his head was being beaten repeatedly into the sidewalk...
Did he say sidewalk? I know I've been saying that for quite a while because I seem to recall reading that early on but, I'm not sure I've actually read where Zimmerman claims he was having his head beaten against a sidewalk.


...and we know that isn't what happened.
Again, where did Zimmerman actually say that?


We were also told that Zimmerman suffered serious injuries as a result of his being beaten up and we haven't seen evidence of that either. No stitches, no concussion, treated at the scene.
By whom were you told that? Certainly, if the events were occurring as is being attributed to Zimmerman, there's every reason to believe Zimmerman reasonably believed he was in the process of being seriously injured or killed.


From Zimmerman's family, lawyers, and the report detailing his story I think.
You heard d'okie dokie from the Zimmerman camp?


Exactly.
Wow! We agree!


If he was staying with his father but wasn't completely familiar with the neighbourhood he could've slowed down to make sure he knew where he was going as well.
You're imputing a lot of things that can't be known. I believe we do know Trayvon Martin was frequently at his father's condominium and it's probably safe to assume he knew it well enough to know how to get home from point #3.


Maybe he figured he was safe and wanted to extend his conversation.
Then he would have seen George Zimmerman walk from Twin Trees to Retreat View Circle, as he talked to police, and told them he was walking to Retreat View Circle to get the address off the front of the condominium there. Martin would then have to figure he was still safe and want to extend his conversation until Zimmerman walked back to the courtyard, spotted him, attacked him, and started beating his fists with his face as a pretext to pull his gun out and shoot him.


Maybe he wasn't expecting to be shot in a gated community.
I know I wouldn't be but, I wouldn't have run in the first place. And, I certainly wouldn't have "hung around."

Lot of maybes there Skeptic...a lot of maybes that assume a lot of actions there is no evidence to support.


If Zimmerman had a right to be walking on the sidewalk and "following" someone, there's no reason why Trayvon couldn't walk slowly and talk on the phone. He still wasn't doing anything criminal.
You're right. But, Zimmerman clearly tells police he's lost sight of the person before walking to Retreat View Circle. But, I think you're absolutely right that Trayvon did not sense he was in danger and, therefore, either stayed in the area where the altercation took place or returned there after running.

But, I think it's safe to say that if Trayvon Martin took off running -- OR EVEN SLOWLY WALKING -- he would be way beyond point #5 in the 1 minute and 59 seconds it took Zimmerman to complete his phone call to police.

So, I think we're reaching agreement that Martin either hung around or returned to the spot where he died. It's progress.


How did Zimmerman end up at point #5 when he was supposedly going back to his truck?
If you listen to or read the transcripts of the 911 call, Zimmerman describes walking from Twin Trees to Retreat View Circle (presumably on the sidewalk connecting the two streets) and would walk right by point #5 on his way back to his truck.


Tbh I would assume that both Trayvon and Zimmerman got there on foot.
Another point of agreement.

But, to the point, if Martin was walking, running, or crawling past point #3 nearly 2 minutes before Zimmerman terminated the call with police, how do you explain him only reaching point #5 in that amount of time?

I say he either hung around there or returned there because, it doesn't make sense that it is as far as he could get if he were evading Zimmerman.

[TheSkeptic]

It makes sense that the prosecution would find a disconnect between one getting one's head repeatedly beaten against the concrete and a cut that does not even require stitches.

This notion combined with Zimmerman's withholding of financial information during the bail proceedings does paint a picture of someone willing to use deception to avoid incarceration.

Really though we are arguing about something that none of us have the information on. I am sure that a medical examiner looked at Zimmerman and Martin's body immediately after the shooting and its that report that matters.

Does anybody have that report?

Apparently the reports are out but I haven't been able to find the direct evidence.

From what I've read there was some evidence that Trayvon had been smoking weed within a month I think before his death and some stuff that indicated that Zimmerman had been taking medication for anxiety. Fresh photos showed some cuts on Zimmerman's face and Trayvon had a small laceration on his ring finger iirc. I'm not sure that it's got anything particularly new beyond that.

I've been looking and I can't seem to find a link to the articles I was reading. ABC and Huffington Post should have it covered though imo.

Edit: It's not the specific documents but there are some police photos of Zimmerman at this link. I have to say I was wrong about the Police Department in this case.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/23/trayvon-martin-case-witnesses-change-stories_n_1539077.html

Or at least they seem to be from the police.

[Yonivore]

The law only requires Zimmerman to believe he was in danger of serious bodily injury or death.


Has zimmerman trained in any self defense arts? He wanted to be a cop..
I don't know but, that doesn't change his burden under the law covering justified use of force.

[Yonivore]

trigger happy and over zealous, would have made a fine cop :tu
I think if he were trigger happy, he would have had his gun out long before he was pinned to the ground being beaten Mixed Martial Arts style.

By the sound of it Zimmerman didn't even consider his weapon until he believed he wasn't going to come out of the incident without serious bodily injury or being killed.

[vander]

Do you normally display emotional angst in this manner?

Unless its a report or interview directly from those that are a part of the actual crime and its subsequent investigation then who cares? NBC being asshats does not exonerate Zimmerman any more than it implicates him.

:rolleyes

tbh: you're a pathetic tool unless you continue to question every single "self defense" killing in this country

NBC made this the blown up story that it is, and you (and many others) bit, hard.

[Th'Pusher]

So all of the evidence is not out, the prosecutor has seen all the evidence, Zimmerman has been charged with 2nd degree murder, yet Yoni is positive all evidence points to Zimmerman being innocent. Logical.

[TheSkeptic]

So all of the evidence is not out, the prosecutor has seen all the evidence, Zimmerman has been charged with 2nd degree murder, yet Yoni is positive all evidence points to Zimmerman being innocent. Logical.

Political reasons and overconfidence.

[Yonivore]

Because Zimmerman's the one who said his injuries were serious. So serious that he had no choice but to shoot the teenager he had been following.
You're going to have to source that statement because I've never heard Zimmerman claim his injuries were serious. In fact, I find it hard to believe Zimmerman had any capacity to assess the severity of his injuries until after the incident was over.

What Zimmerman defense claims, I believe, is he was getting the shit beat out of him and believed he would be seriously injured or killed if he didn't repel the attack.


And we would've seen evidence of that if it had happened and Zimmerman actually had been strangled.
But, I doubt they would look as severe as the actual injuries Zimmerman did suffer.

You can render a person unconscious with a choke hold that leaves no marks.

You're still confusing the seriousness of the injuries sustained being justification for shooting Martin with the belief serious injury or death was imminent if Zimmerman hadn't shot Martin.

Zimmerman's defense is that he believed he WOULD have been seriously injured or killed if he hadn't employed deadly force, not that he WAS seriously or mortally injured and, therefore, was justified in using deadly force.

[Th'Pusher]

Political reasons and overconfidence.

Really? With Yoni? Happy being a fucking hack.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

http://www.axiomamnesia.com/TrayvonMartinFiles/Trayvon-Martin-George-Zimmerman-FULL-case-report-documents.pdf

Thats the reports Florida released.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/05/17/trayvon.martin.autopsy.pdf

Thats the medical examiner's autopsy report.

[Yonivore]

Political reasons and overconfidence.
What are my political reasons?

Alan Dershowitz and I couldn't be further apart on the political spectrum yet, we both believe Zimmerman justifiably killed Martin in an act of self-defense.

The prosecution has yet to reveal one shred of evidence that supports 2nd Degree Murder and their probable cause affidavit was just a bunch of unsupported accusations.

[The_Worlds_finest]

What Zimmerman defense claims, I believe, is he was getting the shit beat out of him and believed he would be seriously injured or killed if he didn't repel the attack.


Which all goes back to any prior training.

[Yonivore]

Which all goes back to any prior training.
Why?

[TheSkeptic]

Really? With Yoni? Happy being a fucking hack.

:lol I was being sarcastic.

And thanks Fuzzy :tu

[FuzzyLumpkins]

:rolleyes

tbh: you're a pathetic tool unless you continue to question every single "self defense" killing in this country

NBC made this the blown up story that it is, and you (and many others) bit, hard.

Nice characterization. The Orlando Sentinel is the one that broke the story but if you want to attribute all the media attention to NBC you go right ahead.

Florida's gun laws have been a matter of national controversy for years now. This is an extension of that.

It just sounds like you are butthurt because the Sharpton's and Jackson's of the world got involved. You keep parroting the racial context and NBC. that's my characterization. Personally, i do not give a shit but i do think that Florida's gun laws are in many ways asinine so this case interests me.

[TheSkeptic]

What are my political reasons?


I was giving a sarcastic answer to his question about why the prosecution would see all the evidence and then conclude that Murder 2 was the appropriate charge. Completely forgot that a statement like that is something that can be taken seriously around here. :lol

[The_Worlds_finest]

Why?

This jerk off defense he was in fear for his life. If he wanted to be a cop I can promise he has taken self defense.

[Th'Pusher]

I was giving a sarcastic answer to his question about why the prosecution would see all the evidence and then conclude that Murder 2 was the appropriate charge. Completely forgot that a statement like that is something that can be taken seriously around here. :lol

So why was Zimmerman charged with murder 2 if all of the evidence points to Zimmerman being innocent?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I think if he were trigger happy, he would have had his gun out long before he was pinned to the ground being beaten Mixed Martial Arts style.

By the sound of it Zimmerman didn't even consider his weapon until he believed he wasn't going to come out of the incident without serious bodily injury or being killed.

The MMA witness recanted his testimony.


This witness lived a few feet from where Trayvon and Zimmerman had their fight. On the night of the shooting, he told Serino he saw a black man on top of a lighter-skinned man "just throwing down blows on the guy, MMA-style," a reference to mixed martial arts.

He also said the one calling for help was "the one being beat up," a reference to Zimmerman.

But three weeks later, when he was interviewed by an FDLE agent, the man said he was no longer sure which one called for help.

"I truly can't tell who, after thinking about it, was yelling for help just because it was so dark out on that sidewalk," he said.

He also said he was no longer sure Trayvon was throwing punches. The teenager may have simply been keeping Zimmerman pinned to the ground, he said.

He did not equivocate, though, about who was on top.

"The black guy was on top," he said.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-22/news/os-george-zimmerman-key-witnesses-20120522_1_witnesses-change-shooting-fdle-agent

[The_Worlds_finest]

Why?

I think the DA will try and prove zimmerman's life was not in danger.

[The_Worlds_finest]

Oh and also Zimmerman was convinced this was the guy breaking into houses, strengthing his conclusion that his life was in danger.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Sorry but thinking something especially when you are wrong is not a justification for homicide.

If I think someone is breaking into a house and shoot him and it turns out that its his house, what do you think will happen?

[The_Worlds_finest]

previous cases of SYG cases in Florida. Read and enjoy! http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/cases/case_27

[TheSkeptic]

So why was Zimmerman charged with murder 2 if all of the evidence points to Zimmerman being innocent?

Honestly, the evidence doesn't point to his innocence and there's too many inconsistencies in his story for me to believe him. I'm just not sure about Murder 2 which is why I'd like to hear the prosecution's case.

Though if we could just sentence him jail without parole would be my stance on it. I take the death of minors very seriously and I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who kill them for no reason. Labelling deaths like that doesn't bring the victim back. Particularly in situations like this one.

But I'm not in charge and I won't even be on the jury so the only thing I can do is sit back and see what's going to happen. (While hoping for a huge civil lawsuit)

[TheSkeptic]

The MMA witness recanted his testimony.



http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-22/news/os-george-zimmerman-key-witnesses-20120522_1_witnesses-change-shooting-fdle-agent


Ouch.

[Th'Pusher]

Honestly, the evidence doesn't point to his innocence and there's too many inconsistencies in his story for me to believe him. I'm just not sure about Murder 2 which is why I'd like to hear the prosecution's case.

Though if we could just sentence him jail without parole would be my stance on it. I take the death of minors very seriously and I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who kill them for no reason. Labelling deaths like that doesn't bring the victim back. Particularly in situations like this one.

But I'm not in charge and I won't even be on the jury so the only thing I can do is sit back and see what's going to happen. (While hoping for a huge civil lawsuit)

I thought murder 2 was a little stiff too, which is why I want to see all the evidence. Seems the people that are closest to the case think they have a pretty strong case which is why I find it amusing that Yoni thinks all evidence points to Zimmerman being free and clear.

[TheSkeptic]

I thought murder 2 was a little stiff too, which is why I want to see all the evidence. Seems the people that are closest to the case think they have a pretty strong case which is why I find it amusing that Yoni thinks all evidence points to Zimmerman being free and clear.

Really? Do you have links? I've seen that the detective wanted manslaughter and initially I thought that was right but I'm still fuzzy on that front.

If the prosecution/state is feeling confident though I'm *really* looking forward to hearing what they have to say.

[Th'Pusher]

Really? Do you have links? I've seen that the detective wanted manslaughter and initially I thought that was right but I'm still fuzzy on that front.

If the prosecution/state is feeling confident though I'm *really* looking forward to hearing what they have to say.

Why would they go in with murder 2 if they did not think they could get it as opposed to something like manslaughter? I'm just not sure why they would set the bar so high.

[The_Worlds_finest]

If any of you read the link citing previous stand your ground cases, you will soon realize 2 things
1) Florida justice is fucked.
2) Zimmerman is going to walk
and the ultimate conclusion bases on what I have read
3) Martin was standing his ground, and zimmerman was standing his

[Yonivore]

This jerk off defense he was in fear for his life. If he wanted to be a cop I can promise he has taken self defense.
You do, of course, realize there are probably more than a few police officers with self-defense training that have been forced to used deadly force to defend themselves when on the losing end of a physical struggle.

Not sure why this is relevant.

[The_Worlds_finest]

You do, of course, realize there are probably more than a few police officers with self-defense training that have been forced to used deadly force to defend themselves when on the losing end of a physical struggle.

Not sure why this is relevant.

Read my post right above, or even better read the current stand your ground cases I posted afew more replies above.

[Yonivore]

I think the DA will try and prove zimmerman's life was not in danger.
Gee, ya think?

Well, the I think the defense will counter with convincing a jury, "a person in similar circumstances could reasonably believe their life was in danger."

I think the defense has the stronger argument, tbh.

So, how will the prosecutor prove the depravity required in a 2nd Degree Murder charge, counselor?

[Yonivore]

Read my post right above, or even better read the current stand your ground cases I posted afew more replies above.
Okay, still not sure why prior self-defense training is relevant.

[The_Worlds_finest]

Gee, ya think?

Well, the I think the defense will counter with convincing a jury, "a person in similar circumstances could reasonably believe their life was in danger."

I think the defense has the stronger argument, tbh.

So, how will the prosecutor prove the depravity required in a 2nd Degree Murder charge, counselor?

This is my favorite SYG case
"Location: Hot Shotz Bar in New Port Richey, Pasco County

What happened: Max Wesley Horn Jr., 47, shot and killed Joseph Martell, 34, after an argument outside a bar during the annual Chasco Fiesta in New Port Richey. Martell had exchanged words with friends of Horn's during the day, and they encountered each other later that night when Martell emerged from Hot Shotz and, according to Horn, threatened his sister-in-law. Horn lifted his shirt to show a gun in his waistband and said he would shoot Martell, who was dragged away to another bar. He returned shortly. Witnesses gave differering accounts of what happened next. Some say Martell punched Horn. Others didn't see a punch. Horn fired at Martell six times until the gun jammed.

The outcome: Horn was charged with second-degree murder. He claimed immunity under the stand your ground statute, but a judge denied that claim. He went to trial and was acquitted."

[The_Worlds_finest]

Okay, still not sure why prior self-defense training is relevant.

In my mind, knowings how to put your wittle hands and elbows up to protect your face and get up and run, constitutes enough self defense to know your life isnt in danger.

I was surprised that they charged him with 2nd and not just manslaughter. BUt after reading previous shorts on cases, zimmerman is going to walk. But my final opinion is Martin was standing his ground, too.

[Yonivore]

In my mind, knowings how to put your wittle hands and elbows up to protect your face and get up and run, constitutes enough self defense to know your life isnt in danger.
Even people with self-defense training get in a bind and get killed.


I was surprised that they charged him with 2nd and not just manslaughter. BUt after reading previous shorts on cases, zimmerman is going to walk. But my final opinion is Martin was standing his ground, too.
They couldn't both be standing their ground; someone was the aggressor. Someone picked the fight. Someone threw the first punch.

[The_Worlds_finest]

Even people with self-defense training get in a bind and get killed.


They couldn't both be standing their ground; someone was the aggressor. Someone picked the fight. Someone threw the first punch.

If you read the cases I posted you would realize my point, which stands true. Martin and Zimmerman, both could win by stating they were standing their ground.

On that note-im out, have a good night gents.

[Yonivore]

If you read the cases I posted you would realize my point, which stands true. Martin and Zimmerman, both could win by stating they were standing their ground.
Martin's not winning anything, he's dead. Trust me, it won't be a draw.

Either Zimmerman was acting in self-defense or he wasn't.


On that note-im out, have a good night gents.
Buenos noches.