Bonner is the first big of the bench in the WCF vs. the Thunder

[urunobili]

Incredible what my eyes are witnessing.

Am I the only fool that thinks that Blair should be the adjustment for game 2?

[ElNono]

:lol Spurs
:lol outthinking themselves
:lol back to major role
:lol floor spacer can't make a shot

[vander]

needs to be a starter tbh,

needs to be out there to counter Ibaka and Perkins

[Obstructed_View]

As one of the harshest critics of this situation, I noticed when Bonner came in, but there was a good reason for it and I've got so much confidence in the team that I knew Pop wasn't going to stick with it if it wasn't working. Not too worried about it, and Bonner can write this off since most of the guys weren't hitting their threes.

[Keepin' it real]

That man, Matt Bonner, makes me wanna fucking vomit. Cut his ass. Not tomorrow. NOW!

[100%duncan]

Blair can't do worse.

[Josepatches_]

Pop went small and we played much better.

We could win without Bonner and Blair. In the 4th we only played Splitter or Duncan.

[Spurologist]

I think deciding whether SJAX should start over Green is a better lineup question tbh. I think Pop has already resigned Blair to the doghouse for rest of playoffs.

[NRHector]

and he still fuck brick it

[slick'81]

Bonner is just another stud on a deep bench

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Meh, it had to at least be attempted. Didn't work, tried something else, something else worked. Such is the way of the game.

[BatManu20]

Bonner is only getting PT to stretch the offense and keep Ibaka out of the lane. THe problem is Bonner has a reputation of disappearing in the playoffs and he lived up to his rep tonight. Dude just cannot hit open shots when we need him to for some reason. It's frustrating. Got to keep his confidence up though.

[Warlord23]

How long before Brooks figures out that the best way to neutralize the Spurs bench is:
a) Let Bonner shoot with the clock running down
b) Hack-a-Splitter

[TDMVPDPOY]

bonner and green sexual healing tonight

[SA210]

Damnit, if he could only hit at least 2 or 3 threes in one game, damnit. Pisses me off that he can't hit his damn shot. I'm NOT a huge Bonner supporter, I fkn can't stand the guy in the game. But shit man, really hope that once and for all he can catch fire at least 1 or 2 games in these playoffs. I mean seriously if you play every frickin game in the playoffs, you gotta be able to get hot at least once, right?

Right?

Ahh, f it

[T Park]

Lol @ wanting Blair....

[ElNono]

Thank you Brooks for closing the game with Ibaka on the bench :tu

[Basketball Power]

Bonner was a complete waste out there

[therealtruth]

There's no reason for Blair to play. SJax and KL are better options.

[therealtruth]

Bonner was a complete waste out there

Amazingly Bonner is hitting 44%.

[Drz]

My god you idiots.

Bonner was +6 for the game when he got subbed in with 22 seconds left and the Thunder hit three worthless 3's.

Stop... think... ask yourself...

why...

Why is Bonner's +/- always so good? Why.... why...

And then you think, oh my gosh, my small idiot mind has had an epiphany. He's a ****ing FLOOR SPACER. It doesn't matter if his shot goes in. What matters is that we play 4 on 4 ball simply by him being a statue on the 3 point line, and the team ....

... SCORES MORE POINTS

OH MY GOSH, HE HELPS US WIN GAMES.

The quickest way to spot who's a ****ing retard on this forum is to see who doesn't understand why we have Bonner in the game.

[itzsoweezee]

My god you idiots.

Bonner was +6 for the game when he got subbed in with 22 seconds left and the Thunder hit three worthless 3's.

Stop... think... ask yourself...

why...

Why is Bonner's +/- always so good? Why.... why...

And then you think, oh my gosh, my small idiot mind has had an epiphany. He's a ****ing FLOOR SPACER. It doesn't matter if his shot goes in. What matters is that we play 4 on 4 ball simply by him being a statue on the 3 point line, and the team ....

... SCORES MORE POINTS

OH MY GOSH, HE HELPS US WIN GAMES.

The quickest way to spot who's a ****ing retard on this forum is to see who doesn't understand why we have Bonner in the game.



It only works until the opposition catches on. Memphis figured out he wasn't going to do
shit pretty quick.

[Josh810]

My god you idiots.

Bonner was +6 for the game when he got subbed in with 22 seconds left and the Thunder hit three worthless 3's.

Stop... think... ask yourself...

why...

Why is Bonner's +/- always so good? Why.... why...

And then you think, oh my gosh, my small idiot mind has had an epiphany. He's a ****ing FLOOR SPACER. It doesn't matter if his shot goes in. What matters is that we play 4 on 4 ball simply by him being a statue on the 3 point line, and the team ....

... SCORES MORE POINTS

OH MY GOSH, HE HELPS US WIN GAMES.

The quickest way to spot who's a ****ing retard on this forum is to see who doesn't understand why we have Bonner in the game.This post brought to you by this kid:

http://turnernbaallball.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/bonner-haircut-blog.jpg

[SpurPadre]

It only works until the opposition catches on. Memphis figured out he wasn't going to do
shit pretty quick.

THIS. The other condescending poster can talk all the shit he wants to fellow Spurs fans but it's unbelievable how one can bash people because they think Bonner is a bum. Is that poster the kid with the Bonner hair cut or something?

[ElNono]

Bonner was +6 for the game when he got subbed in with 22 seconds left and the Thunder hit three worthless 3's.

Bonner had that +6 from Manu's 1st quarter run... you know, that run that was all Manu.

He didn't even play the 4th quarter until 22 secs were left (thankfully)...


Why is Bonner's +/- always so good? Why.... why...

But it isn't always so good. Actually, in the playoffs, it's normally negative.


And then you think, oh my gosh, my small idiot mind has had an epiphany. He's a ****ing FLOOR SPACER. It doesn't matter if his shot goes in.

Of course it matters if it goes in. He doesn't need to be guarded otherwise. As a matter of fact, a lot of teams will "live" with Matty killing them, instead of Tony/Manu/Tim.


The quickest way to spot who's a ****ing retard on this forum is to see who doesn't understand why we have Bonner in the game.

Terrible take, tbh... I'm glad Pop realized Matty can't be trusted and sat his ass out when the game was on the line. That's what good coaches do. I guess Pop is a retard :rolleyes

[SA210]

My god you idiots.

Bonner was +6 for the game when he got subbed in with 22 seconds left and the Thunder hit three worthless 3's.

Stop... think... ask yourself...

why...

Why is Bonner's +/- always so good? Why.... why...

And then you think, oh my gosh, my small idiot mind has had an epiphany. He's a ****ing FLOOR SPACER. It doesn't matter if his shot goes in. What matters is that we play 4 on 4 ball simply by him being a statue on the 3 point line, and the team ....

... SCORES MORE POINTS

OH MY GOSH, HE HELPS US WIN GAMES.

The quickest way to spot who's a ****ing retard on this forum is to see who doesn't understand why we have Bonner in the game.



This post brought to you by this kid:

http://turnernbaallball.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/bonner-haircut-blog.jpg


:lmao:rollin

[ElNono]

Pop did the right thing... he gave Matt 10 mins to show if his shot was on... it wasn't... back to the bench... I like "The new Pop"... 10 mins should be enough to see if your "spacer" is on or not...

[timvp]

Bonner is Michael Jordan with a small sample size. Stop being mean, guys.

[ElNono]

allright, I'll stop... basically, I have no complains, tbh... 10 mpg is exactly where Bonner should be at... I'll stop being greedy, tbh

[Drz]

Let's say clutch is a real thing. As I'm sure even the retards know, there's a lot of debate on that topic, but let's pretend it's a sure thing.

Now that we're assuming it is... it's effect is negligible. Immaterial. Almost zero.

So, you're an NBA team and you're game planning against the Spurs. You know Bonner has shot 1,545 3 pointers in his career and made 641 of them, for 41.5%. But you think ("know?") clutch exists. Since you're not braindead, you know the effect is tiny, so you think he'll only make 40% instead of 41.5%.

What do you do? Do you tell your bigs, hey, just leave Bonner open, stay home and defend the paint. We're willing to give up a point expectation of 3 x 0.4 = 1.2, even though that expectation would ****ing KILL us because it's so much higher than the average expectation of approximately 1?

No you don't.

My god, I really don't understand how so many idiots here don't get this. It's so simple. If you read this post and you still don't get it, read it again. And keep rereading until you get it. It's really not that hard.

Can't wait for some Captain of the Idiots to say "But his playoff 3P% is only .348!!" :lol

[Obstructed_View]

Pop did the right thing... he gave Matt 10 mins to show if his shot was on... it wasn't... back to the bench... I like "The new Pop"... 10 mins should be enough to see if your "spacer" is on or not...

Yep, if Pop's going to do that, I have absolutely no problem if he's the first big off the bench.

[itzsoweezee]

Let's say clutch is a real thing. As I'm sure even the retards know, there's a lot of debate on that topic, but let's pretend it's a sure thing.

Now that we're assuming it is... it's effect is negligible. Immaterial. Almost zero.

So, you're an NBA team and you're game planning against the Spurs. You know Bonner has shot 1,545 3 pointers in his career and made 641 of them, for 41.5%. But you think ("know?") clutch exists. Since you're not braindead, you know the effect is tiny, so you think he'll only make 40% instead of 41.5%.

What do you do? Do you tell your bigs, hey, just leave Bonner open, stay home and defend the paint. We're willing to give up a point expectation of 3 x 0.4 = 1.2, even though that expectation would ****ing KILL us because it's so much higher than the average expectation of approximately 1? Rt

No you don't.

My god, I really don't understand how so many idiots here don't get this. It's so simple. If you read this post and you still don't get it, read it again. And keep rereading until you get it. It's really not that hard.

Can't wait for some Captain of the Idiots to say "But his playoff 3P% is only .348!!" :lol


you obviously haven't watched many playoff games. thankfully, he's not a big part of the rotation this playoffs, but the last two playoffs, teams did exactly what you suggest they wouldn't and they were extremely successful in doing it.

[tesseractive]

What do you do? Do you tell your bigs, hey, just leave Bonner open, stay home and defend the paint.
Tbh, you tell them to solve a system of linear equations in their heads to seven decimal places while they're out on the floor reacting to the play, then use the result to determine exactly how far to play off Bonner.

[ElNono]

Diaw was such an upgrade... it's just so much more noticeable due to the shit we had at that position (turd towers)...

I think that and dumping RJ really changed the season for the Spurs...

[Capt Bringdown]

Has their ever been a more fear-ridden Spur? It's 5 on 4 in the opponent's favor when Bonner's on the court.
Oh well, Spurs win.
All you can do is hope it doesn't catch up with us, and/or Pop figures out another option. Because Bonner's shot is not falling.
End of

[tesseractive]

Diaw was such an upgrade... it's just so much more noticeable due to the shit we had at that position (turd towers)...

I think that and dumping RJ really changed the season for the Spurs...

That's a fact.

And hey, we even got Captain Jack out of the deal. Huge win all around.

[SnakeBoy]

My god, I really don't understand how so many idiots here don't get this.

You're talking to people who once wanted Pop fired because they thought he was killing the spurs championship hopes by not playing Roger Mason Jr. more. Is really hard to understand?

[BackHome]

I said it before this game and I will say it again ......We win if Bonner only plays ten minutes a game and Neal does not have to bring the ball up when he is playing PG...

[therealtruth]

I said it before this game and I will say it again ......We win if Bonner only plays ten minutes a game and Neal does not have to bring the ball up when he is playing PG...

Neal was fine bring the ball up court. They didn't really pressure him.

[therealtruth]

The Thunder had Westbrook guarding him. Showing just how useless he is. He's got a 7 inch advantage. He should have been posting him up.

[underdawg]

Bonner had that +6 from Manu's 1st quarter run... you know, that run that was all Manu.

He didn't even play the 4th quarter until 22 secs were left (thankfully)...



But it isn't always so good. Actually, in the playoffs, it's normally negative.



Of course it matters if it goes in. He doesn't need to be guarded otherwise. As a matter of fact, a lot of teams will "live" with Matty killing them, instead of Tony/Manu/Tim.

Terrible take, tbh... I'm glad Pop realized Matty can't be trusted and sat his ass out when the game was on the line. That's what good coaches do. I guess Pop is a retard :rolleyes

and thank you Nono for the sanity - I'm not a Bonner fan (shocking) but I really was hoping that he would be an asset to draw Ibaka out of the paint. I'm still going to hope, but he's been pretty average to below average these playoffs (3.2 and 2?) - if he can't help this series, I really do hope the Spurs amnesty him next year. His worth is only effective when he's making 3pt. baskets and for some reason the playoffs this year (and a few others) aren't his shining moment. If Bonner's cold, give Blair a shot to make something happen - I'm pretty certain it's not going to be much worse than Bonner's defensive exploits.

[Drz]

You're talking to people who once wanted Pop fired because they thought he was killing the spurs championship hopes by not playing Roger Mason Jr. more. Is really hard to understand?
Haha, yeah, there are a lot of Pop haters on this board. Pretty hilarious how many people here think he's not a good coach, I can only imagine the carnage if we actually had a below average one.

The Bonner stuff gets to me, because to me and to anyone who understands, the concepts behind how he helps the Spurs win games are so incredibly basic that it feels like anyone should be able to understand, so long as the concepts are explained to them. So I explain the concepts, and over and over, I feel like it gets through to no one. At first I thought I wasn't explaining things well enough.... then after a few more real attempts, I realized it's just the internet and people don't pay attention to arguments and reason here. Ever since, I just give half-hearted Bonner defenses in random Bonner threads.

Time to give up the crusade. Dumb people remain dumb. C'est la vie.

[Drz]

and thank you Nono for the sanity - I'm not a Bonner fan (shocking) but I really was hoping that he would be an asset to draw Ibaka out of the paint. I'm still going to hope, but he's been pretty average to below average these playoffs (3.2 and 2?) - if he can't help this series, I really do hope the Spurs amnesty him next year. His worth is only effective when he's making 3pt. baskets and for some reason the playoffs this year (and a few others) aren't his shining moment.
Ohhhhhhhhhhhh

myyyyyyyyy

goddddddddddddddddddddddd

Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb...........

Getting sucked back in by the stupidity.............

....no, must stay away.

Please, underdawg, you look so incredibly stupid in this post. Please please educate yourself. It nauseates me, reading this stuff, seeing how uninformed people are.

Ugh.

[ElNono]

Haha, yeah, there are a lot of Pop haters on this board. Pretty hilarious how many people here think he's not a good coach, I can only imagine the carnage if we actually had a below average one.

The Bonner stuff gets to me, because to me and to anyone who understands, the concepts behind how he helps the Spurs win games are so incredibly basic that it feels like anyone should be able to understand, so long as the concepts are explained to them. So I explain the concepts, and over and over, I feel like it gets through to no one. At first I thought I wasn't explaining things well enough.... then after a few more real attempts, I realized it's just the internet and people don't pay attention to arguments and reason here. Ever since, I just give half-hearted Bonner defenses in random Bonner threads.

Time to give up the crusade. Dumb people remain dumb. C'est la vie.

to be frank, everyone understands the "theory" behind it... heck, we actually had great players like Horry fulfilling that role admirably for years...

[ElNono]

and thank you Nono for the sanity - I'm not a Bonner fan (shocking) but I really was hoping that he would be an asset to draw Ibaka out of the paint. I'm still going to hope, but he's been pretty average to below average these playoffs (3.2 and 2?) - if he can't help this series, I really do hope the Spurs amnesty him next year. His worth is only effective when he's making 3pt. baskets and for some reason the playoffs this year (and a few others) aren't his shining moment. If Bonner's cold, give Blair a shot to make something happen - I'm pretty certain it's not going to be much worse than Bonner's defensive exploits.

If he keeps playing 10 mpg when he's shooting like tonight, he can stay... my beef with Matty was trotting him 20+ mpg and getting nothing from him.. because if his shot is off, you absolutely get nothing from him... no spacing, no rebounds, no assists, nothing...

I think Pop was aware of this too thus getting another guy like Diaw who can space the floor just as well, but also contribute in other ways, like assists and rebounds...

[Drz]

because if his shot is off, you absolutely get nothing from him... no spacing, no rebounds, no assists, nothing...
Not true. You still get spacing.

[Obstructed_View]

Ten minutes of spacing is great. It's 32 minutes of iso in the post I can't stand.

[therealtruth]

Not true. You still get spacing.

How do you get spacing when Westbrook is guarding him?

[Drz]

How do you get spacing when Westbrook is guarding him?
In that case you don't. It does indeed depend on the defensive lineup. We're fortunate they can't always field a lineup that'll work that way.

[ElNono]

Not true. You still get spacing.

Not true. You keep defenses honest by having actual treats... NBA coaches aren't dumb, at least at this level... Matt had two wide open 3s tonight. The reason? His guy didn't stay with him.

If his +/- would be indicative of how much better he makes the team, he would be playing 30+ mpg... you would think a HoF coach like Pop would go right at it.

But the times he has played that much at this level, the Spurs have lost. Unidimensional players have to play limited roles in the league. That's what Matt is. If he's hot from 3, perhaps you can justify playing him more. But when he doesn't have it, he has to sit down.

[SA210]

Not true. You keep defenses honest by having actual treats... NBA coaches aren't dumb, at least at this level... Matt had two wide open 3s tonight. The reason? His guy didn't stay with him.

If his +/- would be indicative of how much better he makes the team, he would be playing 30+ mpg... you would think a HoF coach like Pop would go right at it.

But the times he has played that much at this level, the Spurs have lost. Unidimensional players have to play limited roles in the league. That's what Matt is. If he's hot from 3, perhaps you can justify playing him more. But when he doesn't have it, he has to sit down.

[100%duncan]

:lol at some posters being hard on Green, cut him some motherfucking slack he was due for a letdown after what he'd done for us this PO

[Drz]

Not true. You keep defenses honest by having actual treats... NBA coaches aren't dumb, at least at this level... Matt had two wide open 3s tonight. The reason? His guy didn't stay with him.
I'm sure you've seen the Spurs offense this year, and thus I'm sure you understand how he got open for two 3 pointers. (Hint: It wasn't because his guy left him open intentionally)


If his +/- would be indicative of how much better he makes the team, he would be playing 30+ mpg... you would think a HoF coach like Pop would go right at it.
Here you make a solid point (although 30+ is too high an estimate, only Parker plays that much). I'm 99.999% sure Pop is fully aware of lineup effectiveness and that the Spurs perform better with Bonner on the floor, so as to why he gets average-to-middling minutes, my theory is 1) changing offensive looks leads to more points, and 2) Bonner's less-than-good athleticism means he needs more rest. That's just speculation on my part though.


But the times he has played that much at this level, the Spurs have lost. Unidimensional players have to play limited roles in the league. That's what Matt is. If he's hot from 3, perhaps you can justify playing him more. But when he doesn't have it, he has to sit down.
This is not true. It would be true in the long term... if Bonner shot 35% from 3 for a long, extended period of time, yes, people no longer need to honor his floor spacing. But 0 for 2 in one game, with both shots being near hits... that's not even close to enough to say he "doesn't have it" tonight. Shots are close to independent events. You may not think so, as many people don't, but that is an error due to human bias.

http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/anthro/faculty/barrett/wilke%20barrett.pdf

[therealtruth]

Not true. You keep defenses honest by having actual treats... NBA coaches aren't dumb, at least at this level... Matt had two wide open 3s tonight. The reason? His guy didn't stay with him.

If his +/- would be indicative of how much better he makes the team, he would be playing 30+ mpg... you would think a HoF coach like Pop would go right at it.

But the times he has played that much at this level, the Spurs have lost. Unidimensional players have to play limited roles in the league. That's what Matt is. If he's hot from 3, perhaps you can justify playing him more. But when he doesn't have it, he has to sit down.

Bonner must be the easiest guy to guard in the playoffs. You know he won't hit the shot if it's important.

[Drz]

:lol at some posters being hard on Green, cut him some motherfucking slack he was due for a letdown after what he'd done for us this PO
Very true!

But Bonner going 0 for 2 after shooting 44% from 3 this postseason... what a red-headed ginger bum!!!!!!

[TJastal]

LOL@Barkley saying Bonner would be the key to the series... :lmao

So far it's been Tiago Splitter who has been key. And if he could only knock down 70% FT the spurs could wrap up this series in 5 games.

Somebody needs to get with him and show him proper form, he's short arming, not bending at the knees and the result are shots not even making the rim. :bang

[ElNono]

I'm sure you've seen the Spurs offense this year, and thus I'm sure you understand how he got open for two 3 pointers. (Hint: It wasn't because his guy left him open intentionally)

That's why I pointed out "at this level". During the regular season teams simply don't go out of their ways to scout teams the way they do for a playoff series. At this level, everything gets broken down to minutiae: tendencies, mismatches, production under pressure, etc etc etc... Every game is huge and a single win or loss can turn a series around. I don't compare regular season Matt Bonner vs playoff Bonner, simply because they're two fairly different competition levels.


Here you make a solid point (although 30+ is too high an estimate, only Parker plays that much). I'm 99.999% sure Pop is fully aware of lineup effectiveness and that the Spurs perform better with Bonner on the floor, so as to why he gets average-to-middling minutes, my theory is 1) changing offensive looks leads to more points, and 2) Bonner's less-than-good athleticism means he needs more rest. That's just speculation on my part though.

But if "changing the offensive looks leads to more points", then Bonner wouldn't lead +/-, right? What part doesn't jive there?

There's a couple more things you can add to your list: being an atrocious rebounder for his size, having unidimensional talent (guys like Horry could block a shot here or there, Diaw can pass the ball), not responding well to physical play.... that's just off the top of my head.


This is not true. It would be true in the long term... if Bonner shot 35% from 3 for a long, extended period of time, yes, people no longer need to honor his floor spacing. But 0 for 2 in one game, with both shots being near hits... that's not even close to enough to say he "doesn't have it" tonight. Shots are close to independent events. You may not think so, as many people don't, but that is an error due to human bias.

Players will tell you "rhythm" and "confidence" are huge. Players that go into hot streaks also tell you they feel like the rim become an ocean and feel everything they throw is going in. You hear this from professional athletes all the time. Might be just a mental factor, and perhaps unmeasurable, but it's there and Pop has indicated he believes in such things. Like when he was talking about Jax and saying that he plays "with an edge". What is this edge? Can you measure it? Why guys like RJ didn't have it? Is it just mental?

[Drz]

That's why I pointed out "at this level". During the regular season teams simply don't go out of their ways to scout teams the way they do for a playoff series. At this level, everything gets broken down to minutiae: tendencies, mismatches, production under pressure, etc etc etc... Every game is huge and a single win or loss can turn a series around. I don't compare regular season Matt Bonner vs playoff Bonner, simply because they're two fairly different competition levels.
I think the Thunder are too professional and capable of an organization and would have Bonner fully scouted by now, and would play him the same way regardless of whether it's regular season or postseason. Just my belief. No way we can settle this one unless we talk to the Thunder.


But if "changing the offensive looks leads to more points", then Bonner wouldn't lead +/-, right? What part doesn't jive there?
I don't understand what you're saying. The effectiveness of changing offensive looks (as in sometimes playing a stretch 4, sometimes playing small, etc.) doesn't directly relate to an individual player's +/- performance.


Players will tell you "rhythm" and "confidence" are huge. Players that go into hot streaks also tell you they feel like the rim become an ocean and feel everything they throw is going in. You hear this from professional athletes all the time. Might be just a mental factor, and perhaps unmeasurable, but it's there and Pop has indicated he believes in such things.
That's all true, they do say that. That doesn't refute what I had posted, but perhaps you weren't trying to.

[Rummpd]

This experiment was a failure for a few minutes but no way Blair gets back near the top of the rotation. - it will be Splitter or small ball with both Jackson and Leonard in togehter at times. Matty was not effective tonight - however, he will contribute more than Blair who as he stopped being a rebounder lost what he needed to stay credible.

[SenorSpur]

Bonner must be the easiest guy to guard in the playoffs. You know he won't hit the shot if it's important.

Exactly - and we've seen this the past few seasons. Bonner's shot routinely goes on vacation come playoff time. For a team, whose players have proven to be mentally tough, Bonner has always been the weak link in the chain.

If I were OKC head coach Scott Brooks, I'd continue rotating off Bonner until he can prove he's no longer the weak-minded, playoff choker that he's proven to be.

[Russo21]

Hopefully Blair can score bonners minutes next game due to his history of playing well against the thunder. Will see. Bonner 0 points on 2 shots and 1 turnover in 11 minutes. Not a very big sample size but he sure did not make the most of those 11 minutes. Hopefully Blair can do better for us.

[DMC]

Blair needs to be selling shirts. He has no place on the floor in the WCF. At least Bonner doesn't flip the ball up over his shoulder or travel as soon as he touches it.

[TJastal]

Exactly - and we've seen this the past few seasons. Bonner's shot routinely goes on vacation come playoff time. For a team, whose players have proven to be mentally tough, Bonner has always been the weak link in the chain.

If I were OKC head coach Scott Brooks, I'd continue rotating off Bonner until he can prove he's no longer the weak-minded, playoff choker that he's proven to be.

Bonner needs to be able to put the ball down and make a good pass or hit a mid range shot with consistency. So far he hasn't shown he is capable of that in a playoff setting. I'm much more confident Diaw can do all of the above, plus take it all the way to the rack.

Unfortunately, Bonner hasn't shown an ability to do any of that so far in the playoffs which is the reason he's been easily bottled up by OKC's perimeter defense. OKC at times is even getting by just using a point guard like Westbrook to lightly keep tabs on him on the perimeter, ala Memphis last year. Which brings up yet another of Bonner's warts, the inability to take advantage of a smaller mismatch. Which is yet another thing Diaw would be fully capable of.

Bonner just needs to be kept on a short leash and pulled out of the game quickly if he is choking, and thankfully Pop is finally doing that. Jackson is proving capable of being a great small ball 4 especially against a team like the thunder who like to go small with Durant @ the 4. The spurs' advantage when both teams go small lies in Tiago Splitter being able to exploit the thunder in the P&R and also in the paint. It may well be the key to winning this series.

[TJastal]

Hopefully Blair can score bonners minutes next game due to his history of playing well against the thunder. Will see. Bonner 0 points on 2 shots and 1 turnover in 11 minutes. Not a very big sample size but he sure did not make the most of those 11 minutes. Hopefully Blair can do better for us.

I wouldn't mind taking a look at a Blair-Splitter frontline but not when the thunder go small w/ Durant @ the 4.

[urunobili]

Lol @ wanting Blair....

Have you checked his historic stats against the Thunder?

[Keepin' it real]

Pop did the right thing... he gave Matt 10 mins to show if his shot was on... it wasn't... back to the bench... I like "The new Pop"... 10 mins should be enough to see if your "spacer" is on or not...

Even before we got Diaw and Jackson, I used to say that is exactly how Bonner should be used. Give him a heat check in every game ... if he's hot, give him more minutes ... if not, have a seat.

But now that we have Diaw and Jackson, they can both fill Bonner's role, and do it 10000000X better than Bonner ever will in the playoffs.

So we should use Diaw and Jackson to spread the floor, and Bonner should resume his rightful role as human victory cigar.

[ElNono]

I think the Thunder are too professional and capable of an organization and would have Bonner fully scouted by now, and would play him the same way regardless of whether it's regular season or postseason. Just my belief. No way we can settle this one unless we talk to the Thunder.

Well, I'll disagree here. During the regular season, Bonner was mostly checked by Collison. IIRC, last night, they were switching the pick and roll and Bonner would end up with a smaller guy with him, which was textbook of what Memphis did last season.


I don't understand what you're saying. The effectiveness of changing offensive looks (as in sometimes playing a stretch 4, sometimes playing small, etc.) doesn't directly relate to an individual player's +/- performance.

Sure it does. You walk in here calling people "dumb" because they don't "understand" that when Matty is on the floor, the Spurs are the most effective offensively (he's the king of plus-minus, thus the Spurs offense runs at it's peak of efficiency when he's out there). Yet, he has given up a substantial portion of his minutes to Diaw/Splitter now, and the Spurs not only have kept their scoring efficiency (more distributed among players, seeing Diaw isn't leading the +/- rankings), yet winning like they never have won while Matt (and Blair) had a leading role. And BTW, the "offensive look" isn't that much different, seeing Diaw also plays the stretch 4 role, he is just much more capable of also playing facilitator inside the paint too (multi-dimensional player).


That's all true, they do say that. That doesn't refute what I had posted, but perhaps you weren't trying to.

It just goes at your contention that "shots are close to independent events". Apparently, they're not that independent. There's seemingly much more to shots than simple mechanics or opposing team mechanics (wide open vs contested). Don't know if it's measurable. But now we're getting into territory you already discussed with timvp a few months ago, and it's an area that it's just seem to be starting to get researched.

[Blake]

Spurs win and people are still lining up to crap on Bonner and Pop.

Lol

[Drz]

Bonner's shot routinely goes on vacation come playoff time.
Quiz for everyone!:

Bonner is now 27 of 80 in the playoffs from 3, a 3P% of .338. How many of those misses would have to be makes for his postseason 3% to equal his career 3P% of .415 (641 of 1545)?


Answer in white:

6

Yes, just six shots brings him up to having one of the top playoff 3P%s of all time. It's almost like 80 shots isn't enough to tell you anything about whether he's "clutch" ?? No, let's not consider that obvious possibility, Bonner's terrible (but only in the playoffs!!1) :rolleyes

[T Park]

Have you checked his historic stats against the Thunder?

Yes. Means jack shit.

[rmt]

If I were Brooks, this is what I'd do:

1) leave Bonner wide open and double some one else because he'll choke (Pop's counter - don't play Bonner at all - use Diaw/SJax/Splitter

2) pressure Neal as he brings the ball up - Manu should be the PG and Neal the SG

3) hack-a-Splitter - Coach Chip needs to be practising free-throws with Tiago as much as possible.

[tesseractive]

Quiz for everyone!:

Bonner is now 27 of 80 in the playoffs from 3, a 3P% of .338. How many of those misses would have to be makes for his postseason 3% to equal his career 3P% of .415 (641 of 1545)?


Answer in white:

6

Yes, just six shots brings him up to having one of the top playoff 3P%s of all time. It's almost like 80 shots isn't enough to tell you anything about whether he's "clutch" ?? No, let's not consider that obvious possibility, Bonner's terrible (but only in the playoffs!!1) :rolleyes

"Do you know what the difference between hitting .250 and .300 is? That's 25 hits...25 hits in 500 at bats is 50 points...ok. There's 6 months in a season. That's about 25 weeks, that means if you get just one extra flair a week, just one. A gork, you get a ground ball, you get a ground ball with eyes! You get a dying quail, just one more dying quail a week and you're in Yankee Stadium."
--Kevin Costner, Bull Durham

Maybe it's just a small sample size, maybe it's just bad luck. But it hasn't just been this season. In the playoffs, Bonner always seems to come up that one dying quail short.

[Dunc n Dave]

Thank you Brooks for closing the game with Ibaka on the bench :tu

This.

Playing Bonner or Kawhi or Jack at the 4 forced Brooks to choose between either Perkins or Ibaka. He was reluctant to put them both on the floor together against the 4 shooters the Spurs rolled out there most of the game.

The result: the Spurs had an easier time with penetration the rest of the game and less fear of getting their shot blocked. Especially with Duncan playing in the high post so much and pulling Perkins/Ibaka out with him.

[Drz]

Maybe it's just a small sample size, maybe it's just bad luck. But it hasn't just been this season. In the playoffs, Bonner always seems to come up that one dying quail short.
???

Shooting .389 from 3P% this year, very respectable.

Last year, led the Spurs in win shares / 48.

People on this forum parrot the "Bonner is bad in the playoffs" nonsense they read, but if you look at the numbers, he's been very good these past two years. I think because he looks awkward on TV, it colors people's opinions. Ichiro's swing is one of the ugliest in MLB, but as long as the results are there, who cares how it looks?

[ElNono]

Quiz for everyone!:

Bonner is now 27 of 80 in the playoffs from 3, a 3P% of .338. How many of those misses would have to be makes for his postseason 3% to equal his career 3P% of .415 (641 of 1545)?


Answer in white:

6

Yes, just six shots brings him up to having one of the top playoff 3P%s of all time. It's almost like 80 shots isn't enough to tell you anything about whether he's "clutch" ?? No, let's not consider that obvious possibility, Bonner's terrible (but only in the playoffs!!1) :rolleyes

You just pointed out one other problem with Matt... he doesn't shot enough 3s to be taken seriously as a treat... even when he goes 100% from 3, he rarely will score over 10 points, simply because he won't shoot more than four or five 3s (at the most)...

So it's 10 points (at best) by Bonner, or opening the lanes for Parker/Manu and the paint for Tim... again, pretty easy to pick your poison here...

[ElNono]

Shooting .389 from 3P% this year, very respectable.

He has shot well these playoffs on a limited role. Perhaps removing some of the pressure of having to produce a lot when given a lot of time has worked well for him. Just a guess.

[Drz]

ElNono, I think I've covered this with you before, but Bonner's value is not in the 3 pointers he does or doesn't make. It's in how other players perform on the floor when he's out there.

Yes, it almost doesn't matter if he goes 100% from 3. Likewise, it almost doesn't matter if he goes 0% from 3.

[greyforest]

bonner is consistently a great asset to the team during regular seasons.

bonner consistently falls apart in every postseason.

none of this is new. :toast

[tesseractive]

???

Shooting .389 from 3P% this year, very respectable.

Last year, led the Spurs in win shares / 48.

People on this forum parrot the "Bonner is bad in the playoffs" nonsense they read, but if you look at the numbers, he's been very good these past two years. I think because he looks awkward on TV, it colors people's opinions. Ichiro's swing is one of the ugliest in MLB, but as long as the results are there, who cares how it looks?

He has a career .323 3P shooting percentage in the playoffs coming into this season, vs. .414 during the regular season. Why is "Bonner is bad in the playoffs" nonsense?

[greyforest]

Bonner's great value is his 6'11" shooting guard role on offense, which fucks up opposing teams playing defense. Do you put a big on him way out at the 3pt line, leaving the paint open, or cover him with a small that he can shoot over the top of?

Unfortunately this mismatch is less likely to be created when he's not making his shots.

Defensively he is below Spurs' average, so really it's all about if those 3's are dropping.

[Drz]

He has a career .323 3P shooting percentage in the playoffs coming into this season, vs. .414 during the regular season. Why is "Bonner is bad in the playoffs" nonsense?
Sample size.

[Drz]

Defensively he is below Spurs' average, so really it's all about if those 3's are dropping.
Not true. Read the thread.

[tesseractive]

Sample size.

So when his PER drops from 14 to 8 and his WS/48 drops from .141 to .067, you just ignore it and assume it will average out over time? That's asinine.

In the 5 seasons where he's played more than 10 total playoff minutes, only once has he had a double digit playoff PER, and that was last year when he was rocking a still-below-average 11.8. Meanwhile, in 8 regular seasons, he's never logged a season below a 12.4.

I'm not fundamentally a Bonner hater, and I'm willing to keep trotting him out there for a few minutes a game to see if he can start pulling through. But it's simply a fact that he hasn't been doing enough during the playoffs.

I don't know if he psyches himself out or thinks about things too much, because I have no idea what's actually going on inside his head. But surely you admit that basketball players are human beings and that things like that can happen to them, right? They're not little random number generators that have a true average and then just fart out little statistical anomalies every once in a while, they're people.

[Drz]

So when his PER drops from 14 to 8 and his WS/48 drops from .141 to .067, you just ignore it and assume it will average out over time? That's asinine.

In the 5 seasons where he's played more than 10 total playoff minutes, only once has he had a double digit playoff PER, and that was last year when he was rocking a still-below-average 11.8. Meanwhile, in 8 regular seasons, he's never logged a season below a 12.4.
I do agree he's performed much worse in the playoffs than he has in the regular season.

I disagree with using PER as a good playoff metric, because of its heavy emphasis on utilization. Aside from that, Bonner might actually be the #1 player in the NBA in terms of which player's PER is least reflective of his value.

But yes, sample size. His playoff career consists of 552 minutes, roughly 18 30-minute games. Even a full 62 game season can show a lot of variation for a player.


I don't know if he psyches himself out or thinks about things too much, because I have no idea what's actually going on inside his head. But surely you admit that basketball players are human beings and that things like that can happen to them, right? They're not little random number generators that have a true average and then just fart out little statistical anomalies every once in a while, they're people.
Oh heck yeah, absolutely. And I also acknowledge Bonner has the type of mind that's more prone to be affected by that sort of thing. It's definitely possible (though unlikely, imo) that his lower 3P% is because he feels more pressure in the playoffs and has more performing his shot.

Bonner, as much as any player in the NBA, practices repeating his 3-point shot over and over and over and over. To him, I doubt the shot is pressure-driven at all anymore. Once you've taken tens of thousands of shots in your lifetime, my bet is it's just automatic. Catch ball, take your shooting motion.... very little thought involved.

I've seen Bonner a couple times now at HEB but haven't bothered him. Maybe next time I'll ask him that question -- if he feels pressure in those situations, or if the shot is automatic. I'm actually very genuinely curious.

[ElNono]

Compared to Matt, Robert Horry 3P%, both on the regular season and playoffs is dismal... yet he was a much more effective stretch 4 simply because he hit when it mattered, and built a name hitting when it mattered.

Stephen Jackson is another guy that just has that "edge" or knack to hit when you need it.

You don't teach that, you don't practice that, it's not mechanical. It's all in the head.

[ElNono]

ElNono, I think I've covered this with you before, but Bonner's value is not in the 3 pointers he does or doesn't make. It's in how other players perform on the floor when he's out there.

Yes, it almost doesn't matter if he goes 100% from 3. Likewise, it almost doesn't matter if he goes 0% from 3.

I've discussed this for 3 years... :lol

I appreciate you taking the time for a civil discussion. I never discard being wrong either.

[Mugen]

I'm just glad that he's an afterthought nowadays and that his poor playoff performances aren't as impactful as previous years.

He's a born loser and choker but he's surrounded by winners now instead of RJ so his deficiencies are better masked.

[tesseractive]

I disagree with using PER as a good playoff metric, because of its heavy emphasis on utilization. Aside from that, Bonner might actually be the #1 player in the NBA in terms of which player's PER is least reflective of his value.
Fair point on the utilization, though I did notice that his playoff 3PA/min is nearly identical to his career regular-season rate, so it's not that he's simply not getting the shots.


But yes, sample size. His playoff career consists of 552 minutes, roughly 18 30-minute games. Even a full 62 game season can show a lot of variation for a player.
I understand what you're saying, but I'm calling this an agree to disagree thing. The sample size is low, but it backs the experience from watching games. We can all easily remember moments from regular season games where we think "Wow, that was a real momentum-changing 3 from Bonner right there." It just doesn't seem like he hits those kind of shots in the playoffs for some reason, despite sometimes having the opportunities.

I'd love it if you were right and he started regressing to his mean, though. I'd love to go back to having confidence in him in tight playoff games.

Edited to add: I do agree with you that he adds value without ever taking a shot. We've all seen that. I'm just afraid of situations coming up where nobody on the floor really believes he's going to hit, so the Thunder give him space, and he can't make them pay. At that point, his hidden value dissipates.

[UZER]

Bonner needs to be relegated to what he truly is...a player that comes in the game, if he hits a shot or two, give him more minutes. If he doesn't, yank him and let him ride the pine. That should be the extent of who he is on any basketball team.

[TD 21]

Predictable. It's all match-up related, so relax. Pop will probably continue to give him a first half stint -- even though his minutes overlap the Thunder's small ball lineup -- because they can hide him defensively on Sefolosha or Cook. If he can make a three or two, great. If not, he won't play in the second half (he probably won't either way, unless he get's obscenely hot).

The great thing from here on out is that he's not really needed. Between the Thunder and Heat, the Spurs don't need a true backup four, because both play four perimeter players in their second unit.

[Obstructed_View]

This ceased to become a huge issue when "starting center" was removed from his job description.

[urunobili]

Game 2 too...

[thispego]

what's ya point, son?

[urunobili]

what's ya point, son?

That IMO Blair would be more productive on this series as previously stated

[angelbelow]

We're in the playoffs now. No point in complaining about Bonner. His role isn't going to change and Pop has shown that he is willing to yank him if he struggles. If anything, we should support and believe in him.

[urunobili]

We're in the playoffs now. No point in complaining about Bonner. His role isn't going to change and Pop has shown that he is willing to yank him if he struggles. If anything, we should support and believe in him.

I think my thread and posts are not bashing Bonner but highlighting that IMO Blair would be more effective "nasty" vs. this team. Heck maybe even Splitter should be the first big off the bench.

[urunobili]

Isn't this game 3 currently going on the right time to play Blair? We're 22 points down and he hasn't even tasted the floor when bonner is getting beat for the rebounds by their SG and Anderson is seeing minutes. :pctoss

[Spurtacus]

Yes. More Blair. Less Bonner. Fucking please.

[slick'81]

bbb bonner gives us a few boards and tons of toughness

[Spurs Brazil]

Bonner can't play one more minute in the playoffs. He's fucking scared, as aways.

Play a 3 men rotation or small ball

[therealtruth]

Bonner can't play one more minute in the playoffs. He's fucking scared, as aways.

Play a 3 men rotation or small ball

[Obstructed_View]

The worst part is seeing Bonner along with James Anderson and Gary Neal at the same time. By the way, Bonner was being abused tonight, it just wasn't in the post. I guess we expect too much from Pop to notice that.