Holder still lying to congress...

[CosmicCowboy]

This guy is something else...And they tried Roger Clemens for lying about whether he used steroids and let this piece of shit lie about knowingly sending assault weapons to Mexican drug cartels?


Holder Claims Emails Using Words ‘Fast and Furious’ Don’t Refer to Operation Fast and Furious
By Matt Cover
June 7, 2012
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Attorney General Eric Holder. (AP Photo/J. Scott Applewhite, File)

(CNSNews.com) – Attorney General Eric Holder claimed during congressional testimony today that internal Justice Department emails that use the phrase “Fast and Furious” do not refer to the controversial gun-walking operation Fast and Furious.

Under questioning from Rep. Jason Chaffetz (R-Utah), who read excerpts of the emails at a House Judiciary Committee hearing on Justice Department oversight, Holder claimed that the phrase “Fast and Furious” did not refer to Fast and Furious but instead referred to another gun-walking operation known as “Wide Receiver.”

However, the emails refer to both programs -- "Fast and Furious" and the "Tucson case," from where Wide Receiver was launched -- and reveal Justice Department officials discussing how to handle media scrutiny when both operations become public.

Among three of the emails (see Jason Weinstein Email Fast, Furious.pdf), the second, dated “October 17, 2010 11:07 PM,” was sent by Deputy Assistant Attorney General Jason Weinstein to James Trusty and it states: “Do you think we should have Lanny participate in press when Fast and Furious and Laura’s Tucson case [Wide Receiver] are unsealed? It’s a tricky case, given the number of guns that have walked, but it is a significant set of prosecutions.”



In the third email, dated Oct. 18, 2010, James Trusty writes back to Weinstein: “I think so, but the timing will be tricky, too. Looks like we’ll be able to unseal the Tucson case sooner than the Fast and Furious (although this may be just the difference between Nov. and Dec).”

“It’s not clear how much we’re involved in the main F and F [Fast and Furious] case,” reads the email, “but we have Tucson [Wide Receiver] and now a new unrelated case with [redacted] targets. It’s not any big surprise that a bunch of US guns are being used in MX [Mexico], so I’m not sure how much grief we get for ‘guns walking.’ It may be more like ‘Finally, they’re going after people who sent guns down there.’” (See Jason Weinstein Email Fast, Furious.pdf)

Operation Wide Receiver was run out of Tucson, Ariz., between 2006 and 2007 by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF), a division of the Justice Department.

In his testimony, Holder said that the emails only referred to Operation Wide Receiver.

Holder told the committee: “That refers to Wide Receiver, not to Fast and Furious. The e-mail that you [Rep. Chaffetz] just read [between Trusty and Weinstein] – now this is important – that email referred to Wide Receiver, it did not refer to Fast and Furious. That has to be noted for the record.”

Chaffetz, after a long pause, said, "No, it doesn't. It says Fast and Furious. 'Do you think we should have Lanny participate in press when Fast and Furious and Laura’s Tucson case [Wide Receiver] are unsealed?' It's specific to Fast and Furious. That is not true, Mr. Attorney General. I'm happy to share it with you."


U.S. Border Agent Brian A. Terry, shot and killed on Dec. 14, 2010, near Rio Rico, Arizona, while trying to catch bandits who target illegal immigrants.
Operation Fast and Furious was carried out by the ATF. It began in the fall of 2009 and continued into early 2011, during which time the federal government purposefully allowed known or suspected gun smugglers to purchase guns at federally licensed firearms dealers in Arizona. The government did not seek to abort these gun purchases, intercept the smugglers after the purchases, or recover the guns they had purchased.

In some cases, as the government expected they would, the smugglers delivered the guns to Mexican drug trafficking organizations. Two rifles sold to a smuggler in the course of Operation Fast and Furious in January 2010 ended up at the scene of the murder of U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry in December 2010.

[jack sommerset]

Sure seems like he is not telling the truth. I would like to know Holders reply to the last question presented to him.

Also if you were involved just say you were. Sounds like they had the right intentions. People make mistakes all the time. Lying as we all know cause more lies then you forget what the original problem was. God bless

[clambake]

this is an outrage! no way these "cartels" would have these weapons without that damn holder guy!

[CosmicCowboy]

this is an outrage! no way these "cartels" would have these weapons without that damn holder guy!

They certainly wouldn't have had THOSE weapons without the Justice Department intentionally letting them walk. And time after time Holder has said that this was basically ATF going renegade in Phoenix and nobody in Washington knew about it. Lie after lie after lie.

Nice straw man though from blue team.

[clambake]

lying has been "in vogue" for over a decade now.

what happened?

[TeyshaBlue]

Ah..the "He did it first" defense.

Funny, I expected that from boutons.

[clambake]

bou has been around for over a decade?

[TeyshaBlue]

Presumably. lol

[TeyshaBlue]

This is looking semantic-ish tho.

[clambake]

look, all i'm saying is that we've made lying a time honored tradition.

can't find :americanflagemoticon:

i'll use this one.



:flag:

[Nbadan]

As we learned from the Bush Administration, saying someone is lying and proving someone is lying are two completely different ball games...

[CosmicCowboy]

LOL

Fast and Furious doesn't really mean Fast and Furious?

If it wasn't so disgusting it would be almost funny.

[clambake]

LOL

Fast and Furious doesn't really mean Fast and Furious?

If it wasn't so disgusting it would be almost funny.

duh, its a movie about cars.

[Nbadan]

THOSE weapons without the Justice Department intentionally letting them walk

OK, but the drug cartels get most of their guns at gun shows and gun shops in the US...the American way, damn it...this is like looking at the campfire and ignoring the forest fire behind you....are you for tighter gun controls in the US or not?

[clambake]

funny story about the movie. i played golf with 2 of the writers for that movie. i asked them if they had prepared their speech and what they would be wearing to the oscars.

they had a really good sense of humor about it.

[boutons_deux]

He's black in a Dem DoJ, so of course he's lying his ass off.

[Nbadan]

He's black in a Dem DoJ, so of course he's lying his ass off.

Probably smoking dope in the O room too..

[clambake]

Probably smoking dope in the O room too..

probably a straight up dope for guns deal.





probably.

[Nbadan]

....kinda like 9/11....

[clambake]

uh oh

[TeyshaBlue]

funny story about the movie. i played golf with 2 of the writers for that movie. i asked them if they had prepared their speech and what they would be wearing to the oscars.

they had a really good sense of humor about it.

No shit?

Pretty cool.:toast

[CosmicCowboy]

OK, but the drug cartels get most of their guns at gun shows and gun shops in the US...the American way, damn it...this is like looking at the campfire and ignoring the forest fire behind you....are you for tighter gun controls in the US or not?

That's bullshit. They aren't buying those fucking hand grenades, automatic weapons etc. at gun shows.

They get most of their good hardware out of Central America.

And no, i'm not for tighter gun control. We already have plenty of laws on the books to keep this from happening. Justice Department just fucking ignored them and handed those guns to the cartels to stir shit up and convince idiots like you that we need stricter gun control.

[TeyshaBlue]

Fucking straw forest just grew in this thread.

[CosmicCowboy]

And no, I can't prove that was their intention but it certainly tracks logically.

[Nbadan]

They get most of their good hardware out of Central America.

You can get hand grenades from any greedy weapons dealer..but the guns come mostly from the U.S....

[TeyshaBlue]

You can get hand grenades from any greedy weapons dealer..but the guns come mostly from the U.S....

I'm gonna go buy a box for the 4th of July!

[clambake]

No shit?

Pretty cool.:toast

they were cool. they made fun of themselves the whole day.

i laughed and asked them how long till a sequel, they said considering what else is being produced, shouldn't be too long.

[CosmicCowboy]

You can get hand grenades from any greedy weapons dealer..but the guns come mostly from the U.S....

Says blue team anti-gun talking point...*check*

totally unsubstantiated.

[clambake]

Says blue team anti-gun talking point...*check*

totally unsubstantiated.

he's right, cowboy.

[CosmicCowboy]

he's right, cowboy.

You checked all the cartels guns?

Hell, I'm not saying a lot don't come from here, but nobody knows how many. We DO know that the US Justice Department is responsible for THOUSANDS.

[Nbadan]

The group likewise explained that only 3,480 guns were traced back to the U.S., which equals 12 percent of the total arms seized by the Mexican authorities in 2008 and less than 48 percent of those sent for tracing.

http://frontpagemag.com/2011/04/19/where-drug-cartels-really-get-their-arms/2/

Those were just the guns actually traced back to the U.S. in one year, there are many guns which have had the serial number removed so they could not be traced back anywhere, but gun-nuts in the US like to play games with semantics..

...Compare that to the few hundred guns lost by rogue elements in the ATF...

[CosmicCowboy]

They damn sure aren't getting those full auto weapons, hand grenades, and Russian RPG's from the US.

[CosmicCowboy]

Those were just the guns actually traced back to the U.S. in one year, there are many guns which have had the serial number removed so they could not be traced back anywhere, but gun-nuts in the US like to play games with semantics..

...Compare that to the few hundred guns lost by rogue elements in the ATF...

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

"few hundred guns"

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

"rogue elements in the ATF"

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[clambake]

They damn sure aren't getting those full auto weapons, hand grenades, and Russian RPG's from the US.

sure they can.

[Nbadan]

sure they can.


Surveillance video obtained by CBS News shows suspected drug cartel suppliers carrying boxes of weapons to their cars at a Phoenix gun shop. The long boxes shown in the video being loaded in were AK-47-type assault rifles.

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-18563_162-20039031.html

No doubt...

[CosmicCowboy]

sure they can.

Exactly how are they buying class III weapons?

Why would they bother with trying to sneak Class III weapons out of the US when they can buy them by the truckload in Central America? It's not like they don't have connections down there through the coke trade.

[clambake]

Exactly how are they buying class III weapons?

Why would they bother with trying to sneak Class III weapons out of the US when they can buy them by the truckload in Central America? It's not like they don't have connections down there through the coke trade.

my first trip to the states was texas. I'll honor marcus bryant and tell you i'm from ulster.

[CosmicCowboy]

AK47 TYPE SEMI-AUTO WEAPONS. Not AK-47 FULL AUTO WEAPONS.

Now, I'm not saying I couldn't convert them with some basic machine tools but they weren't buying full auto's in the US.

[Nbadan]

Straight from the mouth of Mamito and Los Zetas...


Rejon Aguilar confessed that Los Zetas have “buyers on the other side” (in the U.S.) who are U.S. citizens that acquire the arms and sell them to Los Zetas. He also admitted hearing stories that the U.S. government was selling weapons.

“What we buy in the United States, there was a time when the buyers, they weren’t our people, they were buyers from the other side, were saying that the American government was selling weapons.”

El Mamito stated that the Mexican government’s efforts had made it more difficult for Los Zetas to get weapons onto Mexican soil but that the Gulf Cartel had no such difficulty. They are still able to smuggle weapons in the trunks of cars through the border crossings.

“We are unaware of what’s happening but you can deduce that if it’s almost impossible for us to buy weapons and bring them in our trunks and they (Gulf Cartel) can they can bring them in freely, with no problems, well there has to be an arrangement, one can deduce that they have a pact with the government, I don’t know.“

http://www.borderlandbeat.com/2011/07/el-mamito-all-our-weapons-are-bought-in.html

[CosmicCowboy]

my first trip to the states was texas. I'll honor marcus bryant and tell you i'm from ulster.

Yeah, I saw that episode of Sons of Anarchy too.

[clambake]

Yeah, I saw that episode of Sons of Anarchy too.

i'll have to check that out.

[Nbadan]

U.S. gun dealers arming Mexican drug cartels


Now, the owner, George Iknadosian, will go on trial on charges that he sold scores of weapons, mostly AK-47 rifles, to smugglers who supplied a drug cartel in the western state of Sinaloa, fueling the gang warfare in which more than 6,000 Mexicans died last year.

The Mexican authorities have long complained that American gun dealers were arming the cartels. This case is the most prominent prosecution of an American gun dealer since the United States promised Mexico two years ago that it would clamp down on the smuggling of weapons across the border.

It also offers a glimpse of how weapons delivered to American gun dealers are being moved into Mexico and used in horrific crimes.

"We had a direct pipeline from Iknadosian to the Sinaloa cartel," said Thomas Mangan, a spokesman for the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives here.

...


The gun laws in the United States allow the sale of multiple military-style rifles to American citizens without reporting the sales to the government, and the Mexicans search relatively few cars and trucks coming into the country.

What is more, the sheer volume of licensed dealers - more than 6,600 along the border alone, many of them operating out of their homes - makes policing them a tall order. The ATF now has about 200 agents assigned to the task.

Smugglers routinely enlist Americans with clean criminal records to buy two or three rifles at a time, often from different shops, then transport them across the border in cars and trucks, hiding them in door panels or under the hood, law enforcement officials here said. Some of the smuggled weapons are also bought from private individuals at gun shows, and the law requires no notification of the authorities in those cases.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/26/world/americas/26iht-border.4.20459692.html

[clambake]

on fx, huh? whats the title of the episode?

[CosmicCowboy]

2009?

:lmao

Your information is painfully out of date. ALL arms sales by licensed dealers are yellow slipped and they are audited regularly. They have driven most of the small dealers out of business by the draconian requirements and massive fines for even the slightest paperwork violations. I personally know several guys that dropped their dealers license because it was just too much trouble to hassle with the ATF.

[clambake]

i don't know anything about licensed arm dealers.

[CosmicCowboy]

on fx, huh? whats the title of the episode?

*spoiler*

Romero, the Galindo cartel guy was really CIA.

[CosmicCowboy]

i don't know anything about licensed arm dealers.

I do.

[Nbadan]

2009?

:lmao

Your information is painfully out of date. ALL arms sales by licensed dealers are yellow slipped and they are audited regularly. They have driven most of the small dealers out of business by the draconian requirements and massive fines for even the slightest paperwork violations. I personally know several guys that dropped their dealers license because it was just too much trouble to hassle with the ATF.

You know how its done....US weapons are shipped by arm dealers to crooked law enforcement in Mexico and then resold or 'misappropriate' would be a better word, by Mexican drug cartels

[CosmicCowboy]

You know how its done....US weapons are shipped by arm dealers to crooked law enforcement in Mexico and then resold or 'misappropriate' would be a better word, by Mexican drug cartels

And you propose to stop this how? By banning the sale of guns in the US?

[Nbadan]

And you propose to stop this how? By banning the sale of guns in the US?

The US is, by far, the leading arms dealer to the world and many of these guns wind up in the hands of rebel armies and drug and human smuggling operations...this has been going on in 3rd world countries for decades...but this doesn't negate the fact that weapons are also bought in the US by the thousands at gun shows and gun shops and resold to Mexican drug cartels..

[CosmicCowboy]

The US is, by far, the leading arms dealer to the world and many of these guns wind up in the hands of rebel armies and drug and human smuggling operations...this has been going on in 3rd world countries for decades...but this doesn't negate the fact that weapons are also bought in the US by the thousands at gun shows and gun shops and resold to Mexican drug cartels..


And you propose to stop this how? By banning the sale of guns in the US?

[Nbadan]

And you propose to stop this how? By banning the sale of guns in the US?

We'll we certainly can't just wave our hands in the air and make excuses...the Israeli make some pretty fine weapons, but you don't see them in the hands of Islamic rebels...so controlling weapons dealers is certainly possible...just gotta make the risk-versus-reward untenable...

[CosmicCowboy]

We'll we certainly can't just wave our hands in the air and make excuses...the Israeli make some pretty fine weapons, but you don't see them in the hands of Islamic rebels...so controlling weapons dealers is certainly possible...just gotta make the risk-versus-reward untenable...

You really don't have a clue how these big international gun sales happen do you? They are all permitted by the US government and state department. There is already a system and laws in place to track and control retail gun sales within the US. The system was working but the Justice Department told those gun dealers to go ahead and sell the guns to the bad guys even though the dealers didn't want to. You really should do your research instead of just automatically spouting blue team talking points.

[ElNono]

Just another lying politician in the Dept of Justice... picking up where Alberto Gonzales left off... this is news?

[TeyshaBlue]

Just another lying politician in the Dept of Justice... picking up where Alberto Gonzales left off... this is news?

Which, after the pages of blue team obfuscation, is what this all boils down to.

[TeyshaBlue]

NJUnPd8RbDA

[boutons_deux]

CC, you trying to say that F&F guns DOMINATE the sale of guns cross-border sales?

The 6000+ gun dealers along the MX border are there because they NEVER sell to cross-border buyers?

[TeyshaBlue]

Are you suggesting that the 6000+ gun dealers along the MX border are there to sell to cross border buyers?

[TeyshaBlue]

We'll we certainly can't just wave our hands in the air and make excuses...the Israeli make some pretty fine weapons, but you don't see them in the hands of Islamic rebels...so controlling weapons dealers is certainly possible...just gotta make the risk-versus-reward untenable...

http://backstory.blogs.cnn.com/tag/al-qaeda/

By Paul Cruickshank and Tim Lister, CNN
(CNN) – Mohammed Merah is the sort of radicalized individual who makes Western counterterrorism officials very apprehensive: someone who is determined, trained, living legally in Europe or the United States and operating alone. One of dozens (perhaps hundreds) of militants either unknown to authorities or suspected of plotting a terrorist attack but whose real intentions and movements are difficult to track.
Merah is wanted in connection with the killings of seven people in the past 10 days. He twice visited the Afghan-Pakistan border area, in 2010 and 2011, French officials said Wednesday. And after the standoff began in Toulouse, he claimed to have been trained by al Qaeda, they say.
Paris prosecutor François Molins said Wednesday, "He has traveled to Afghanistan without using the networks known by French and foreign intelligence services, which means he went there by his own means and without going through facilitators known by intelligences services, and without going through countries usually monitored."
But Merah had appeared on the security services' radar, according to Molins. During his first trip to Afghanistan, "Afghan police checked his ID during a traffic stop, and as a result he was handed over to the U.S. Army, who then put him on board the first plane heading to France," Molins said. (A senior U.S. official gave a different account, saying Afghan forces had actually handed him over to French troops, who had him repatriated.)
Merah had been under surveillance by French intelligence for years, according to Interior Minister Claude Gueant. Even so, he was apparently able to visit the Afghan-Pakistan region a second time and then accumulate weapons after returning home, including an Uzi machine pistol and an assault rifle, plan a series of attacks in Toulouse and Montauban, and force the French government to step up security precautions nationwide.

[CosmicCowboy]

CC, you trying to say that F&F guns DOMINATE the sale of guns cross-border sales?



:lmao

What kind of straw man is that? I'm saying the Justice Department intentionally arranged to export thousands of assault rifles into Mexico and into the hands of the Mexican drug cartels.

That is an undeniable fact.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Is somewhat reminiscent of Janet Reno after the ATF torched all but two branch davidians.

[boutons_deux]

:lmao

What kind of straw man is that? I'm saying the Justice Department intentionally arranged to export thousands of assault rifles into Mexico and into the hands of the Mexican drug cartels.

That is an undeniable fact.

I'm saying what proportion of total cross-border gun shipments from (those 6000+) border state dealers are those F&F guns?

You imply that US control is so strong, effective and that (6000+) gun dealers are so honest that they can be trusted not to sell to cross-border clients.

[TeyshaBlue]

The population of gun dealers that might be selling across borders is not 6000+, no matter how hard you try to make it so by implication and poor logic.

[boutons_deux]

I didn't say all 6000 did, I'm trying to get CC relate the F&F number to the number from US gun dealers sold cross-border.

[CosmicCowboy]

I'm saying what proportion of total cross-border gun shipments from (those 6000+) border state dealers are those F&F guns?

You imply that US control is so strong, effective and that (6000+) gun dealers are so honest that they can be trusted not to sell to cross-border clients.

*sigh*

We all know SOME straw purchases are made and slip through. That's hardly a secret. It's already against the law. The US citizens with clean records make the straw purchases, yellow slip the guns in their name, and then re-sell them. This is not about unscrupulous gun dealers intentionally selling guns into Mexico.

Are you saying that just because a few criminals do it, it's therefore OK for the US Justice Department to do it?

Are you aware that in the case of Fast and Furious, most of the gun dealers CALLED the ATF and said they suspected a straw purchaser was operating and the ATF told them to sell to them anyway? In some cases the FBI even provided the money to buy the guns. The Justice Department was up to their eyeballs in running assault rifles to the mexican drug cartels.

[CosmicCowboy]

And are you aware that when a straw purchase is made (even though the dealer had no idea the buyer was not legitimate) the dealer can still get in deep shit with the ATF and at the very least lose his license? I'm telling you, i know some gun dealers and they do everything in their power to be totally on the up and up and dot every i and cross every t.

[ElNono]

Are you saying that just because a few criminals do it, it's therefore OK for the US Justice Department to do it?

Are you aware that in the case of Fast and Furious, most of the gun dealers CALLED the ATF and said they suspected a straw purchaser was operating and the ATF told them to sell to them anyway? In some cases the FBI even provided the money to buy the guns. The Justice Department was up to their eyeballs in running assault rifles to the mexican drug cartels.

I'm sorry, CC... what is it exactly that bothers you? That the Justice dept sells perfectly working guns to cartels to track them? Because I'm sure you're well aware such programs predate Holder's Justice Dept, and it's far from blue/red territory.

Now, I can agree that's of questionable legality. But that has hardly stopped red/blue teams in the past, has it? How many of these things have both parties swept under the "national security" rug?

[CosmicCowboy]

I'm sorry, CC... what is it exactly that bothers you? That the Justice dept sells perfectly working guns to cartels to track them? Because I'm sure you're well aware such programs predate Holder's Justice Dept, and it's far from blue/red territory.

Now, I can agree that's of questionable legality. But that has hardly stopped red/blue teams in the past, has it? How many of these things have both parties swept under the "national security" rug?

They made NO ATTEMPT TO TRACK THEM...NONE...there was no cooperation with Mexican authorities or any attempt at all to follow the guns once they crossed the border.

The sole purpose was to have them found at crime scenes in Mexico to "prove" American guns were responsible for the crimes.

[CosmicCowboy]

I'm sorry, CC... what is it exactly that bothers you? That the Justice dept sells perfectly working guns to cartels to track them? Because I'm sure you're well aware such programs predate Holder's Justice Dept, and it's far from blue/red territory.

Now, I can agree that's of questionable legality. But that has hardly stopped red/blue teams in the past, has it? How many of these things have both parties swept under the "national security" rug?

The DIFFERENCE was that the program started under Bush was done in conjunction with the Mexican authorities and they DID track them and make arrests. They followed the guns.

[ElNono]

They made NO ATTEMPT TO TRACK THEM...NONE...there was no cooperation with Mexican authorities or any attempt at all to follow the guns once they crossed the border.

The sole purpose was to have them found at crime scenes in Mexico to "prove" American guns were responsible for the crimes.


The DIFFERENCE was that the program started under Bush was done in conjunction with the Mexican authorities and they DID track them and make arrests. They followed the guns.

Wait, do you think this is the first time the ATF,DEA, etc do operations on cartels without notifying Mexican authorities? I mean, I don't want to think you're this naive.

Also, who says they didn't track them at all? AFAIK, they did screw up at some point and lost track of a few hundred weapons (which I don't excuse or condone, I think the whole idea is stupid because stuff like that can happen). Is there any new information about this?

[CosmicCowboy]

Wait, do you think this is the first time the ATF,DEA, etc do operations on cartels without notifying Mexican authorities? I mean, I don't want to think you're this naive.

Also, who says they didn't track them at all? AFAIK, they did screw up at some point and lost track of a few hundred weapons (which I don't excuse or condone, I think the whole idea is stupid because stuff like that can happen). Is there any new information about this?

Have you really read about this case or are you just arguing to represent blue team and argue with me? ATF admits they didn't attempt to track them and just focused on where they showed up at crime scenes. and they didn't "lose track of a few hundred guns". They facilitated the export of over 2000 guns including AR's, AK types, HK's and Barrett 50's.. I don't consider having them recovered at a crime scene to be "keeping track of them".

[CosmicCowboy]

Wait, do you think this is the first time the ATF,DEA, etc do operations on cartels without notifying Mexican authorities? I mean, I don't want to think you're this naive.

Also, who says they didn't track them at all? AFAIK, they did screw up at some point and lost track of a few hundred weapons (which I don't excuse or condone, I think the whole idea is stupid because stuff like that can happen). Is there any new information about this?

The new information is that this wasn't a rogue operation by a few ATF agents as had been claimed. There was clearly knowledge and direction at the highest levels of the Justice Department.

[CosmicCowboy]

My guess is that Obama will fire Holder within a couple of weeks to try to put this story to bed before the election. We are only about 150 days out and this is the kind of stuff that really pisses off voters.

[ElNono]

Have you really read about this case or are you just arguing to represent blue team and argue with me? ATF admits they didn't attempt to track them and just focused on where they showed up at crime scenes. and they didn't "lose track of a few hundred guns". They facilitated the export of over 2000 guns including AR's, AK types, HK's and Barrett 50's.. I don't consider having them recovered at a crime scene to be "keeping track of them".

I'm not arguing just to argue. I'm asking you where you got that information from, because the last I read was that they lost track of a few hundred guns.

All that said, I have zero doubt Holder is lying. What I think it's frankly amusing is trying to paint this as a blue/red team conundrum. Red team lying from the same department is fairly well documented.


The new information is that this wasn't a rogue operation by a few ATF agents as had been claimed. There was clearly knowledge and direction at the highest levels of the Justice Department.

Link? Anything that's not an opinion piece, please? Honest request.

[CosmicCowboy]

I'm not arguing just to argue. I'm asking you where you got that information from, because the last I read was that they lost track of a few hundred guns.

All that said, I have zero doubt Holder is lying. What I think it's frankly amusing is trying to paint this as a blue/red team conundrum. Red team lying from the same department is fairly well documented.



Link? Anything that's not an opinion piece, please? Honest request.

Uhhh...congressional hearings yesterday? E-mails turned over by the justice department? It's been a pretty big news item. Holder saying in sworn testimony that references to "Fast and Furious" in those e-mails (and how to handle the fallout when word of them got out) are not REALLY referring to THE "Fast and Furious"? I'm not making this shit up.

[CosmicCowboy]

Here ya go:

The e-mails accidentally released by the Justice Department...notice the dates

http://cnsnews.com/sites/default/files/documents/Jason%20Weinstein%20Email%20Fast%2C%20Furious.pdf

[ElNono]

Uhhh...congressional hearings yesterday? E-mails turned over by the justice department? It's been a pretty big news item. Holder saying in sworn testimony that references to "Fast and Furious" in those e-mails (and how to handle the fallout when word of them got out) are not REALLY referring to THE "Fast and Furious"? I'm not making this shit up.

:lol I asked you where you got the info that "all weapons were untracked". I can't find any such claims, even from the hearings/emails, as far as I was able to find.

Let me repeat: I'm not defending Holder, I do think the guy lies just like any other politician from any team (and that includes Barry, obviously), and I think it's reprehensible no matter who does it.

[ElNono]

Here ya go:

The e-mails accidentally released by the Justice Department...notice the dates

http://cnsnews.com/sites/default/files/documents/Jason%20Weinstein%20Email%20Fast%2C%20Furious.pdf

so you have no evidence that all weapons were untracked :lol

[CosmicCowboy]

so you have no evidence that all weapons were untracked :lol

It's all public knowledge as per justice department (still incomplete) answers to subpoenas to the US Congress. Please try to keep up.

[CosmicCowboy]

:lol I asked you where you got the info that "all weapons were untracked". I can't find any such claims, even from the hearings/emails, as far as I was able to find.

Let me repeat: I'm not defending Holder, I do think the guy lies just like any other politician from any team (and that includes Barry, obviously), and I think it's reprehensible no matter who does it.

You haven't looked very hard. I'm about to leave and go home but if you even try a LITTLE you should find the ATF report on exactly how many walked and how many were discovered at crime scenes on both sides of the border.

Really. Google is your friend if you are REALLY interested.

[ElNono]

It's all public knowledge as per justice department (still incomplete) answers to subpoenas to the US Congress. Please try to keep up.

Link?

[Wild Cobra]

Link?
What a short memory you have. I thought my memory was bad. Don't ask me for the link(s) either. It was out there so long back.

[ElNono]

You haven't looked very hard. I'm about to leave and go home but if you even try a LITTLE you should find the ATF report on exactly how many walked and how many were discovered at crime scenes on both sides of the border.

Really. Google is your friend if you are REALLY interested.

Google came up with nothing:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=fast+and+furious+all+guns+untracked

[ElNono]

What a short memory you have. I thought my memory was bad. Don't ask me for the link(s) either. It was out there so long back.

What was out there?

[Wild Cobra]

Did you review all 27,000+ returns?

That's the problem with Google. You cannot select date ranges It's a search engine that gives too much information. Until Yahoo bought out Alta Vista, their advanced search was awesome.

[ElNono]

Did you review all 27,000+ returns?

That's the problem with Google. You cannot select date ranges It's a search engine that gives too much information. Until Yahoo bought out Alta Vista, their advanced search was awesome.

Allegedly, this is big news. I can find dozens of articles on untracked guns in Iraq...

I'm not saying it's not true, I simply haven't found any information pointing to that...

[Wild Cobra]

Allegedly, this is big news. I can find dozens of articles on untracked guns in Iraq...

I'm not saying it's not true, I simply haven't found any information pointing to that...
They lost track of the guns. That's what happened.

I was wrong however about date ranges. Google now does have a date range feature. Try narrowing your searched to several past months back, maybe dates before May. I forget how old the good news is, February comes to mind.

[ElNono]

They lost track of the guns. That's what happened.

That's exactly what I said. CC said all guns were "walked" untracked. Thank you for confirming what I read.

Maybe CC has new information...

[CosmicCowboy]

That's exactly what I said. CC said all guns were "walked" untracked. Thank you for confirming what I read.

Maybe CC has new information...

I will try to type slowly.

A T F by their own admission never TRIED to track the guns.

Their plan by their own admission was to link the guns to cartel crime scenes.

What part of that don't you understand?

[ElNono]

I will try to type slowly.

A T F by their own admission never TRIED to track the guns.

Their plan by their own admission was to link the guns to cartel crime scenes.

What part of that don't you understand?

I'm asking you where you got that from, because that's not what I read, it's not on the emails you linked, and apparently it isn't what Wild Cobra read either. A Google search doesn't bring that up either.

BTW, what I also read is that this operation wasn't just on ATF, but it was a multi-agency operation, that included, among other agencies, the DEA.

If you can't find it, it's ok. Just let me know.

[ElNono]

What's the "easy" google search term I can find this under?

[CosmicCowboy]

This is a decent basic overview written before the latest revelations that top justice officials were in on it. It uses direct quotes and names names. I'm just not sure what you are trying to defend here unless you are just shamelessly parroting blue team talking points right to the bitter end despite the clear facts of the case.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/us-anti-gunrunning-effort-turns-fatally-wrong/2011/07/14/gIQAH5d6YI_story_4.html

As for the specific numbers your apparently deficient google skills couldn't find:


Altogether, the straw purchasers bought 2,020 firearms during Fast and Furious, according to law enforcement officials. Of those guns, 227 were recovered in Mexico; 363 have been recovered in the United States.

An additional 1,430 remain on the streets.

[Wild Cobra]

A T F by their own admission never TRIED to track the guns.

That part I missed. That is even more irresponsible that I thought. This is absolutely criminal.

[ElNono]

This is a decent basic overview written before the latest revelations that top justice officials were in on it. It uses direct quotes and names names.

Which doesn't say all the guns were untracked... at all.


I'm just not sure what you are trying to defend here unless you are just shamelessly parroting blue team talking points right to the bitter end despite the clear facts of the case.

I think the entire operation is a terrible idea. But the distinction as to whether the guns were tracked and then some lost (what everyone has apparently known until now) vs not tracked at all (your contention) is pretty significant. It changes the case between negligence to willful infringement, which is not a minor difference.


As for the specific numbers your apparently deficient google skills couldn't find:

But that doesn't say they're not tracked... How many of those left are tracked vs untracked? You said the there's an ATF report saying they never intended to track them. If you can find it, post it.

[ElNono]

That part I missed. That is even more irresponsible that I thought. This is absolutely criminal.

If true, I agree. I just can't find anything that says they all were.

[CosmicCowboy]

Which doesn't say all the guns were untracked... at all.



I think the entire operation is a terrible idea. But the distinction as to whether the guns were tracked and then some lost (what everyone has apparently known until now) vs not tracked at all (your contention) is pretty significant. It changes the case between negligence to willful infringement, which is not a minor difference.



But that doesn't say they're not tracked... How many of those left are tracked vs untracked? You said the there's an ATF report saying they never intended to track them. If you can find it, post it.

How do you think this whole thing came to light? Agent Dodson and the other agents in Phoenix being ordered NOT to track the guns finally went directly to Congress when their superiors kept blowing their concerns off.

In the end THEY were the only ones that got fired, and the guys that put the whole thing together and tried to cover it up got transferred to better jobs in Washington.

[CosmicCowboy]

Dodson's testimony to congress:

http://www.whatthefolly.com/2011/06/22/phoenix-atf-special-agent-john-dodsons-congressional-testimony-on-operation-fast-furious/

[CosmicCowboy]

Testimony of Agent Peter Forcelli to congress:

http://www.whatthefolly.com/2011/06/22/phoenix-atf-special-agent-peter-forcellis-congressional-testimony-on-operation-fast-furious/

[ElNono]

How do you think this whole thing came to light? Agent Dodson and the other agents in Phoenix being ordered NOT to track the guns finally went directly to Congress when their superiors kept blowing their concerns off.

In the end THEY were the only ones that got fired, and the guys that put the whole thing together and tried to cover it up got transferred to better jobs in Washington.


Dodson's testimony to congress:

http://www.whatthefolly.com/2011/06/22/phoenix-atf-special-agent-john-dodsons-congressional-testimony-on-operation-fast-furious/

Stop beating around the bush, and just point me to where you got the info that all these guns were untracked.

Heck, even Dodson in the testimony you just linked says they were ordered to "watch, track and note". Just not act. Apparently, the ATF was indeed tracking. So much for an admission.

I'll tell you this much: If they were indeed all untracked, it's definitely criminal. If they were tracked and some got lost, then it's still negligent, and somebody should pay, although it's somewhat understandable that these things happens in operations of this scope. Which is why, personally, I think operations like this just shouldn't be on the table to begin with, because the risk is indeed a Border Patrol agent dead using American guns.

I'll be the last to defend Holder. He's a politician, and much like all of them, he will lie. That said, there's no color here. If the narrative is "Holder lied, people died", to exploit on a political basis, much like Issa has done, we can apply that to a lot of red team members as well.

Lastly, and I say this sadly, I personally don't think this has the political weight you assign to it, at all. November will be very likely decided by the state of the economy. Jobs, etc. As it normally is.

[CosmicCowboy]

Testimony of ATF agent Olindo james Casa to congress:

http://www.whatthefolly.com/2011/06/22/phoenix-atf-special-agent-olindo-james-casas-congressional-testimony-on-operation-fast-furious/

[CosmicCowboy]

Stop beating around the bush, and just point me to where you got the info that all these guns were untracked.

Heck, even Dodson in the testimony you just linked says they were ordered to "watch, track and note". Just not act. Apparently, the ATF was indeed tracking. So much for an admission.

I'll tell you this much: If they were indeed all untracked, it's definitely criminal. If they were tracked and some got lost, then it's still negligent, and somebody should pay, although it's somewhat understandable that these things happens in operations of this scope. Which is why, personally, I think operations like this just shouldn't be on the table to begin with, because the risk is indeed a Border Patrol agent dead using American guns.

I'll be the last to defend Holder. He's a politician, and much like all of them, he will lie. That said, there's no color here. If the narrative is "Holder lied, people died", to exploit on a political basis, much like Issa has done, we can apply that to a lot of red team members as well.

Lastly, and I say this sadly, I personally don't think this has the political weight you assign to it, at all. November will be very likely decided by the state of the economy. Jobs, etc. As it normally is.

How much testimony do you need from the agents that were there? They were ORDERED not to follow the guns.

[CosmicCowboy]

We now know that the plan came from the highest levels of the justice department. They knew all about Fast and Furious and the guns walking. Holder just bald faced lied about it to Congress yesterday.

this may end up being bigger than you think.

Then again, maybe not.

As you said, the economy sucks too.

[ElNono]

How much testimony do you need from the agents that were there? They were ORDERED not to follow the guns.

:lol Dodson himself says he was ordered to "watch, track and note" the guns and deals, just not make arrests. That's exactly the opposite of being ORDERED not to follow the guns. They were certainly ordered not to make arrests, but that would make somewhat sense if this was a tracking operation involving other agencies.


We now know that the plan came from the highest levels of the justice department. They knew all about Fast and Furious and the guns walking. Holder just bald faced lied about it to Congress yesterday.

this may end up being bigger than you think.

Then again, maybe not.

As you said, the economy sucks too.

I don't think there's a smoking gun. If Issa finds a memo from the DoJ, ATF or DEA that explicitly says guns should flow untracked, then you have the smoking gun and the "scandal". I'm not aware that such document even exists. AFAIK, Issa doesn't either and he's going to bat with what he has, because the election is in November, and political points need to be scored now.

But again, I don't think the average american really gives two shits about this with the economy in the shape it is. Heck, talking points like that foodstamp story on the other thread probably will garner 1000x the attention.

[Nbadan]

I don't think there's a smoking gun. If Issa finds a memo from the DoJ, ATF or DEA that explicitly says guns should flow untracked, then you have the smoking gun and the "scandal". I'm not aware that such document even exists. AFAIK, Issa doesn't either and he's going to bat with what he has, because the election is in November, and political points need to be scored now.

Sooooo.......Holder didn't lie.

[ElNono]

Sooooo.......Holder didn't lie.

Sure he did. Those emails are pretty clear. The question is whether it was a fuckup or something more grotesque. A fuckup can happen, although he's not going to admit to it, seeing Issa is only interested in the political points.

[Wild Cobra]

How much testimony do you need from the agents that were there? They were ORDERED not to follow the guns.
If that was the order, then who ever gave the order needs to be in prison for life. I would feel different if there was some kind of high tech tracker on in the weapons to bust the final buyers, but allowing to arm these criminal elements, when they could have stopped it...

Fucking insane.

[CosmicCowboy]

If that was the order, then who ever gave the order needs to be in prison for life. I would feel different if there was some kind of high tech tracker on in the weapons to bust the final buyers, but allowing to arm these criminal elements, when they could have stopped it...

Fucking insane.

It's right thee in the agents testimony. They had the straw buyer, the cartel buyer, and the guns all together time after time after time and they were ordered to back off and let the guns go with the cartel buyer instead of arresting them both and recovering the guns.

[Yonivore]

Sure he did. Those emails are pretty clear. The question is whether it was a fuckup or something more grotesque. A fuckup can happen, although he's not going to admit to it, seeing Issa is only interested in the political points.
Intentional gun-walking resulting in the deaths of hundreds of Mexican citizens and two U. S. Agents and not a dent in the cartels the U.S. Government armed?

It's something more grotesque.

[boutons_deux]

PussyEater, where's your outrage about 4000 US soldiers dead in Iraq to grab the oil?

and "not a dent" in US's insecurity?

[George Gervin's Afro]

No wmds 4000+ dead zero outrage..fast&furious.. life priaon sentences..lol

[George Gervin's Afro]

If that was the order, then who ever gave the order needs to be in prison for life. I would feel different if there was some kind of high tech tracker on in the weapons to bust the final buyers, but allowing to arm these criminal elements, when they could have stopped it...

Fucking insane.

What type of sentence should we give to those whose orders caused 4000+ dead gi's?

[ElNono]

Intentional gun-walking resulting in the deaths of hundreds of Mexican citizens and two U. S. Agents and not a dent in the cartels the U.S. Government armed?

It's something more grotesque.

Neither you or Issa know that. Intentional gun-walking predates Holder, and Mexican citizens were being murdered by cartels before him too. Don't recall you being up in arms then.

I don't also recall you being up in arms either when a former prez lied about WMD, which ended up in the death of thousands of Iraqi civilians, thousands of US soldiers and millions of Iraqi displaced.

Like I said, if the narrative is "Holder lied, people died", we need to start adding a lot of different cases to the list. There's plenty of similar or even more egregorious instances on the red team.

[CosmicCowboy]

Neither you or Issa know that. Intentional gun-walking predates Holder, and Mexican citizens were being murdered by cartels before him too. Don't recall you being up in arms then.

I don't also recall you being up in arms either when a former prez lied about WMD, which ended up in the death of thousands of Iraqi civilians, thousands of US soldiers and millions of Iraqi displaced.

Like I said, if the narrative is "Holder lied, people died", we need to start adding a lot of different cases to the list. There's plenty of similar or even more egregorious instances on the red team.

Watch out..you are so blindly blue team you may turn into a smurf.

[CosmicCowboy]

What type of sentence should we give to those whose orders caused 4000+ dead gi's?

nice straw man.

[ElNono]

Watch out..you are so blindly blue team you may turn into a smurf.

:lol Why? I'm not making excuses for Holder. If he fucked up, there should be consequences. I thought I was pretty clear on that.

I'm merely pointing out the hypocrisy of red team members when it comes to holding everybody to the same standards. Not sure why you take offense, unless you're a red team member...

[Wild Cobra]

What type of sentence should we give to those whose orders caused 4000+ dead gi's?
Different argument. Want a response from me on the topic, revive the correct thread or make a new one.

[Wild Cobra]

Neither you or Issa know that. Intentional gun-walking predates Holder,
Not from what I have read. Yes, they had operations to track weapons, but they never let them get away from them before. It appears Holder expanded on the original operation.

[CosmicCowboy]

Neither you or Issa know that. Intentional gun-walking predates Holder, and Mexican citizens were being murdered by cartels before him too. Don't recall you being up in arms then.

I don't also recall you being up in arms either when a former prez lied about WMD, which ended up in the death of thousands of Iraqi civilians, thousands of US soldiers and millions of Iraqi displaced.

Like I said, if the narrative is "Holder lied, people died", we need to start adding a lot of different cases to the list. There's plenty of similar or even more egregorious instances on the red team.

I am on record in here saying we should get the fuck out of Iraq and Afghanistan and let those heathen motherfuckers kill each other. I don't give a shit.

I am also on record in here saying that the US should legalize and tax marijuana and that would eliminate the bulk of the cartels income and give them less power and control in Mexico. I'm fine with them killing each other. I'm not fine with ATF giving them the guns to kill our border patrol agents. Would they get guns anyway? Of course, but I am not ready to give Holders justice department a pass for doing it. I honestly think this whole operation was political. They wanted to make sure that people were killed with guns they could document were purchased in the US so they could use that as the reason to tighten gun laws in the US.

Does that sound like I'm blindly red team?

[CosmicCowboy]

Not from what I have read. Yes, they had operations to track weapons, but they never let them get away from them before. It appears Holder expanded on the original operation.

Not entirely true, but it wasn't because they didn't try...on the previous operation under Bush they were working with the Mexican government and literally put trackers in the guns...they had some technical problems with the trackers on some and did lose them, but it's not because they weren't trying.

Of Course, now ElSmurfo will say "See! You admit guns got away under Bush!"

[Wild Cobra]

Of Course, now ElSmurfo will say "See! You admit guns got away under Bush!"
Yes, I can see ElNoKnow saying that.

[ElNono]

Not from what I have read. Yes, they had operations to track weapons, but they never let them get away from them before. It appears Holder expanded on the original operation.

So intentionally walking guns predates Holder, exactly what I said.

We don't know if "they let them get away" or they lost track of them. Exactly what we've been discussing here.

[Wild Cobra]

So intentionally walking guns predates Holder, exactly what I said.

We don't know if "they let them get away" or they lost track of them. Exactly what we've been discussing here.
There is a huge difference intending to maintain control and purposely losing control of such weapons. One is a grey area, the other is absolutely not acceptable.

[TeyshaBlue]

PussyEater, where's your outrage about 4000 US soldiers dead in Iraq to grab the oil?

and "not a dent" in US's insecurity?

lol @ deflection

[ElNono]

I am on record in here saying we should get the fuck out of Iraq and Afghanistan and let those heathen motherfuckers kill each other. I don't give a shit.

Me too, that doesn't mean that administration outright lied to go there. People here needs to stop pretending only one team lies to advance whatever they want to advance, or that they do it on some higher moral ground. Both teams do it, they do it all the time, and it should be reprehensible no matter who does it, especially when it ends up costing lives.


I am also on record in here saying that the US should legalize and tax marijuana and that would eliminate the bulk of the cartels income and give them less power and control in Mexico. I'm fine with them killing each other. I'm not fine with ATF giving them the guns to kill our border patrol agents. Would they get guns anyway? Of course, but I am not ready to give Holders justice department a pass for doing it. I honestly think this whole operation was political. They wanted to make sure that people were killed with guns they could document were purchased in the US so they could use that as the reason to tighten gun laws in the US.

Does that sound like I'm blindly red team?

I don't think Holder's DoJ should get a pass either. I actually think neither Holder or the previous DoJ officials should get a pass for running operations like this. It's obvious the risks outweight whatever gains. That said, and as I pointed out earlier, what Issa is doing is trying to score political points. He doesn't give a shit about the border patrol agents, the guns, the cartels or anything else. An actual investigation should be able to determine by now which guns walked and which ones did not, and what are we looking at: Negligence or outright criminal activity.

Issa isn't interested in that at all. This administration isn't interested in running such an investigation either, seeing how politically charged is this subject. Again, this is far from team colors. This is the political climate we're living in today.

[ElNono]

There is a huge difference intending to maintain control and purposely losing control of such weapons. One is a grey area, the other is absolutely not acceptable.

Agree, but there's absolutely no proof they purposely lost control of the weapons. I've been asking for proof of that, and so far: nothing. Post it if you have it. Issa doesn't have it. Let's see what you have.

[ElNono]

Not entirely true, but it wasn't because they didn't try...on the previous operation under Bush they were working with the Mexican government and literally put trackers in the guns...they had some technical problems with the trackers on some and did lose them, but it's not because they weren't trying.

Of Course, now ElSmurfo will say "See! You admit guns got away under Bush!"

No, but I'm going to say that goes straight to what I was saying that operations like these are absolutely stupid, no matter who runs them.

And there's still no evidence that they purposely "lost track" of these guns either. It's obvious the whole thing was a terrible idea to begin with.

[CosmicCowboy]

Agree, but there's absolutely no proof they purposely lost control of the weapons. I've been asking for proof of that, and so far: nothing. Post it if you have it. Issa doesn't have it. Let's see what you have.

ElSmurfo, I gave you the actual ATF agents sworn testimony to congress that they were ordered by their superiors to intentionally lose control of the guns.

What the fuck do you want? Go back and read all three testimonies, not just the first one. They were ORDERED to let the guns go to Mexico untraced. There was a virtual rebellion in the Phoenix office by the agents on the ground because what they were being ordered to do was so reprehensible.

[Wild Cobra]

ElNoKnow...

Once again defending the corrupt Obama administration...

[ElNono]

ElSmurfo, I gave you the actual ATF agents sworn testimony to congress that they were ordered by their superiors to intentionally lose control of the guns.

:lol did you read those transcripts at all? I already pointed out to you that they don't say that at all. As a matter of fact, they specifically say they were ordered to track them, just not make arrests.

I tell you what... I'll leave this quote here, from the Dodson's sworn testimony you linked, and you spin it:

"Over the course of the next 10 months that I was involved in this operation, we monitored as they purchased hand guns, AK-47 variants, and .50 caliber rifles almost daily. Rather than conduct any enforcement actions, we took notes, we recorded observations, we tracked movements of these individuals for a short time after their purchases, but nothing more."

"But rather than meet the wolf head on, we sharpened his teeth, added number to his claw, all the while we sat idly by watching, tracking and noting as he became a more efficient and effective predator."

(emphasis mine)

[CosmicCowboy]

BTW, the agents on the ground that blew the whistle after Agent Terry got killed got fired, the agents that ordered them to do it got promoted and moved to DC. What does that tell you about Holders justice department?

[ElNono]

ElNoKnow...

Once again defending the corrupt Obama administration...

link? quote?

Wild Cobra, lying per the usual... :lmao

[ElNono]

BTW, the agents on the ground that blew the whistle after Agent Terry got killed got fired, the agents that ordered them to do it got promoted and moved to DC. What does that tell you about Holders justice department?

It tells me it's on par with Alberto Gonzales' DoJ... probably amongst the worst this nation has had...

[ElNono]

BTW, you are aware this was not an ATF-only operation, right?

[CosmicCowboy]

:lol did you read those transcripts at all? I already pointed out to you that they don't say that at all. As a matter of fact, they specifically say they were ordered to track them, just not make arrests.

I tell you what... I'll leave this quote here, from the Dodson's sworn testimony you linked, and you spin it:

"Over the course of the next 10 months that I was involved in this operation, we monitored as they purchased hand guns, AK-47 variants, and .50 caliber rifles almost daily. Rather than conduct any enforcement actions, we took notes, we recorded observations, we tracked movements of these individuals for a short time after their purchases, but nothing more."

"But rather than meet the wolf head on, we sharpened his teeth, added number to his claw, all the while we sat idly by watching, tracking and noting as he became a more efficient and effective predator."

(emphasis mine)

ElSmurfo...

They watched and tracked the INDIVIDUALS for a short time after their purchases, nothing more.... NOT the GUNS

(emphasis mine)

[ElNono]

ElSmurfo...

They watched and tracked the INDIVIDUAL.... NOT the GUNS

(emphasis mine)

They tracked the individuals doing the transactions for the guns... don't be disingenuous now...

[ElNono]

Tell me something else... what role did the DEA play in this operation?

[CosmicCowboy]

I'm tired of arguing with a stupid smurf.

GFY

CC out.

[ElNono]

I'm tired of arguing with a stupid smurf.

GFY

CC out.

When we get to the facts, you run away... noted.

lol red team
lol still waiting for any document saying they let all guns walk untracked

[ElNono]

I'll tell you this much: If they were indeed all untracked, it's definitely criminal. If they were tracked and some got lost, then it's still negligent, and somebody should pay, although it's somewhat understandable that these things happens in operations of this scope. Which is why, personally, I think operations like this just shouldn't be on the table to begin with, because the risk is indeed a Border Patrol agent dead using American guns.


:lol Why? I'm not making excuses for Holder. If he fucked up, there should be consequences. I thought I was pretty clear on that.



I don't think Holder's DoJ should get a pass either. I actually think neither Holder or the previous DoJ officials should get a pass for running operations like this. It's obvious the risks outweight whatever gains. That said, and as I pointed out earlier, what Issa is doing is trying to score political points. He doesn't give a shit about the border patrol agents, the guns, the cartels or anything else. An actual investigation should be able to determine by now which guns walked and which ones did not, and what are we looking at: Negligence or outright criminal activity.

Issa isn't interested in that at all. This administration isn't interested in running such an investigation either, seeing how politically charged is this subject. Again, this is far from team colors. This is the political climate we're living in today.










ElNoKnow...

Once again defending the corrupt Obama administration...

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[CosmicCowboy]

When we get to the facts, you run away... noted.

lol red team
lol still waiting for any document saying they let all guns walk untracked

Too bad you apparently can't read. I overloaded your stupid ass with facts. Facts from the ATF agents on the ground.

You apparently just can't handle them ElSmurfo or you are just too fucking lazy to read their testimony.

I didn't run away. I actually have a life outside this forum and went to the ranch to entertain a dad and his kids.

[ElNono]

Too bad you apparently can't read. I overloaded your stupid ass with facts. Facts from the ATF agents on the ground.

You apparently just can't handle them ElSmurfo or you are just too fucking lazy to read their testimony.

I posted the damn quotes from your own link. Now you're saying they were tracking people not guns (despite the fact that guns don't sell themselves).

I'm still waiting for the smoking gun... the document that allegedly says all guns were walking untracked. Issa is waiting too. chop chop...

Don't get me wrong, the DoJ fucked up. That much we know. We just don't know to which degree. Some heads should roll regardless.

All that said, pulling the "blue team" card is a tad bit hypocritical seeing this movie has already been played by the red team too.

What's perhaps funnier is that I've never voted. And I'll probably won't vote this November either, seeing I can get myself to willingly support either candidate.

lol blue team

[Wild Cobra]

CC...

When have you know ElNoKnow to be rational?

[ElNono]

You have anything to add to this conversation?

Didn't think so... lol bootlicker

[Wild Cobra]

You have anything to add to this conversation?

Didn't think so... lol bootlicker
No, I'm just having fun watching CC rip you a new one.


LOL...

Boot licker...

Missed the mark again ElNoKnow.

[Yonivore]

BTW, you are aware this was not an ATF-only operation, right?
That's true. As such, it would seem there would need to be a level of coordination at the highest ranks of all the agencies involved. Holder is stonewalling and he's not even very good at it. Testifying an email between two high-ranking administration officials, discussing "Fast and Furious," wasn't talking about "Fast and Furious" is lying at it's worst. The only reason this administration is able to keep its nose above the water line is because of a complicit media that refuses to look at the many scandals in which it is involved.

For those who want to defend Holder by stating "gun walking" was started in the previous administration; I'd say three things, 1) So?, 2) If it is found that similar operations, in a previous administration, led to the deaths of innocent Mexican citizens and/or U.S. citizens, prosecute them too, and 3) Considering the Obama administration has been pretty liberal in throwing the Bush administration under the bus on just about every negative aspect of his administration, there must be a significant distinction to be made between the gun walking of the Bush Administration and that of the Obama administration. Otherwise, the New York Times would have already had an expose explaining how this is all Bush's fault.

No, I think there is something unique about the way the Obama administration conducted gun-walking. I would think all Americans would want to get to the bottom of it.

For those that continue to harp on the tragic deaths of the Iraq War; reasonable people disagree on the legitimacy of that military action. I'm not sure you'll find any reasonable people that will stand in any administration's corner on an operation such as "Fast and Furious." Apples and Oranges.

[ElNono]

No, I'm just having fun watching CC rip you a new one.

But he isn't... not even close.

lol male cheerleader

[ElNono]

That's true. As such, it would seem there would need to be a level of coordination at the highest ranks of all the agencies involved. Holder is stonewalling and he's not even very good at it. Testifying an email between two high-ranking administration officials, discussing "Fast and Furious," wasn't talking about "Fast and Furious" is lying at it's worst. The only reason this administration is able to keep its nose above the water line is because of a complicit media that refuses to look at the many scandals in which it is involved.

So that's what you're running with? A media conspiracy? :lol


For those who want to defend Holder by stating "gun walking" was started in the previous administration; I'd say three things, 1) So?, 2) If it is found that similar operations, in a previous administration, led to the deaths of innocent Mexican citizens and/or U.S. citizens, prosecute them too, and 3) Considering the Obama administration has been pretty liberal in throwing the Bush administration under the bus on just about every negative aspect of his administration, there must be a significant distinction to be made between the gun walking of the Bush Administration and that of the Obama administration. Otherwise, the New York Times would have already had an expose explaining how this is all Bush's fault.

Saying that gun-tracking started before Holder would be actually an accurate, true statement, and it's completely independent of any attempt to defend Holder (something I didn't do). As CC himself pointed out, apparently some guns were lost in those operations too, which magnifies the stupidity of running such operations, period.

As far as conducting a serious investigation, we're still waiting for it. I'm not holding my breath. Neither party is really interested in it.

Oh, and the New York Times already wrote about that (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/08/us/politics/holder-and-rep-issa-clash-again-over-fast-and-furious.html). You just don't read the New York Times. But I'm sure Fox News is buying everything Issa is selling.


No, I think there is something unique about the way the Obama administration conducted gun-walking. I would think all Americans would want to get to the bottom of it.

I don't disagree with this. I just don't think either party has been interested in "all Americans" in a while.


For those that continue to harp on the tragic deaths of the Iraq War; reasonable people disagree on the legitimacy of that military action. I'm not sure you'll find any reasonable people that will stand in any administration's corner on an operation such as "Fast and Furious." Apples and Oranges.

There was nothing accidental about Iraq... "Politician X lied, people died"... it's pretty cut and dry. Making excuses based on the administration color, however, does make you a card-carrying red team member. But that isn't news, tbh.

[Yonivore]

So that's what you're running with? A media conspiracy? :lol
No, not a conspiracy but, where is the coverage?


Saying that gun-tracking started before Holder would be actually an accurate, true statement, and it's completely independent of any attempt to defend Holder (something I didn't do). As CC himself pointed out, apparently some guns were lost in those operations too, which magnifies the stupidity of running such operations, period.

As far as conducting a serious investigation, we're still waiting for it. I'm not holding my breath. Neither party is really interested in it.
Darrell Issa is of which party?


Oh, and the New York Times already wrote about that (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/08/us/politics/holder-and-rep-issa-clash-again-over-fast-and-furious.html). You just don't read the New York Times. But I'm sure Fox News is buying everything Issa is selling.
I don't watch FoxNews either. I'll read the article later.


I don't disagree with this. I don't think either party has been interested in "all Americans" in a while.
I'm going to assume your agreement doesn't extend to my assertion gun-walking was unique under Obama.


There was nothing accidental about Iraq... "Politician X lied, people died"... it's pretty cut and dry. Making excuses based on the administration color, however, does make you a card-carrying red team member. But that isn't news, tbh.
Again, reasonable people disagree on the Iraq War. It's not germane to a conversation about "Fast and Furious."

[Yonivore]

Oh, and the New York Times already wrote about that (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/08/us/politics/holder-and-rep-issa-clash-again-over-fast-and-furious.html). You just don't read the New York Times. But I'm sure Fox News is buying everything Issa is selling.
Okay, perused the article. Nothing in there about deflecting blame to the Bush Administration; which was my point. If this weren't an operation that is somehow unique (and awfully so) to the Obama administration, I believe there'd be more media stories on "Well, Bush started it and did it too." And, there just isn't.

Are you familiar with Sharyl Attkisson?

I believe she's the only member of the press legitimately trying to delve into the sordid details of the "Fast and Furious" scandal. Yet, she is getting little attention from anyone but, of course, Obama's detractors. Hell, even CBS (her employer) isn't playing up the story. Seem's to me to be a made for 60-Minutes scandal.

Hundreds of dead Mexican citizens.

1 dead American agent.

Whistleblowers fired.

Responsible administrators sequestered, thus insulated from inquiry, in the bowels of national agency headquarters.

The Attorney General committing a demonstrable bald-faced lie in testimony before Congress.

[ElNono]

No, not a conspiracy but, where is the coverage?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/08/us/politics/holder-and-rep-issa-clash-again-over-fast-and-furious.html
http://articles.cnn.com/2012-06-07/politics/politics_holder-fast-furious_1_issa-documents-fast-and-furious?_s=PM:POLITICS
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/02/10299125-house-panel-to-holder-give-us-fast-and-furious-documents?lite
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/holder-defends-testimony-fast-furious-gun-probe/story?id=14693578
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/holder-hammered-over-fast-and-furious/2012/06/07/gJQA2AAWLV_video.html


Darrell Issa is of which party?

Issa is running a witch hunt, not an investigation. That's why he's more than happy to go to the media first before even receiving an official investigation. Not surprised which party he's from.


I'm going to assume your agreement doesn't extend to my assertion gun-walking was unique under Obama.

I don't think anybody knows that yet, including you and Issa. There's supposedly an investigation being conducted to determine if the tactics used were any different from the previous administration. The conclusions of such investigation aren't available yet.


Again, reasonable people disagree on the Iraq War. It's not germane to a conversation about "Fast and Furious."

When your major criticism/political point is that innocent people died due to a politician lying, it's absolutely germane.

[ElNono]

Okay, perused the article. Nothing in there about deflecting blame to the Bush Administration; which was my point.

From the article:
Republicans, however, expressed skepticism that senior Obama administration officials had not authorized — or at least known about — the tactics. Democrats pushed back, pointing out that A.T.F. agents used similar tactics in other Arizona cases during the Bush administration.

[Yonivore]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/08/us/politics/holder-and-rep-issa-clash-again-over-fast-and-furious.html
http://articles.cnn.com/2012-06-07/politics/politics_holder-fast-furious_1_issa-documents-fast-and-furious?_s=PM:POLITICS
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/02/10299125-house-panel-to-holder-give-us-fast-and-furious-documents?lite
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/holder-defends-testimony-fast-furious-gun-probe/story?id=14693578
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/holder-hammered-over-fast-and-furious/2012/06/07/gJQA2AAWLV_video.html
Not one investigative report among them.


Issa is running a witch hunt, not an investigation. That's why he's more than happy to go to the media first before even receiving an official investigation. Not surprised which party he's from.
Agent Terry was shot with F&F guns in December of 2010; I think an investigation should have already been completed. But, it does raise the salient point that Secretary Napolitano and General Holder claim to have never discussed the murder of Agent Terry -- which resulted from an operation jointly overseen by both of them.


I don't think anybody knows that yet, including you and Issa. There's supposedly an investigation being conducted to determine if the tactics used were any different from the previous administration. The conclusions of such investigation aren't available yet.
That's kind of the point. A curious media has rarely waited for investigations to investigate. If I'm not mistaken, in the time it's taken between Agent Terry's murder and now, President Nixon was already well on his way to resignation. And, I would argue, Fast & Furious is a much more significant scandal than covering up a second rate burglary of your opponent's campaign headquarters. But, that's just me.


When your major criticism/political point is that innocent people died due to a politician lying, it's absolutely germane.
There's been no lie proven that got us into the Iraq war. That's all partisan bickering. And, no, it's not germane to this discussion...it's merely diversion.

[Yonivore]

From the article:
Republicans, however, expressed skepticism that senior Obama administration officials had not authorized — or at least known about — the tactics. Democrats pushed back, pointing out that A.T.F. agents used similar tactics in other Arizona cases during the Bush administration.
And, yet, no media outlet is picking up that meme for the Democrats and making the case for equivalency. Reporting what Democrats are saying and what is being said in a congressional hearing is not investigative reporting.

[ElNono]

Not one investigative report among them.

You asked for coverage. That's coverage.


Agent Terry was shot with F&F guns in December of 2010; I think an investigation should have already been completed. But, it does raise the salient point that Secretary Napolitano and General Holder claim to have never discussed the murder of Agent Terry -- which resulted from an operation jointly overseen by both of them.

What does that has to do with Issa being on a witch hunt?


That's kind of the point. A curious media has rarely waited for investigations to investigate. If I'm not mistaken, in the time it's taken between Agent Terry's murder and now, President Nixon was already well on his way to resignation. And, I would argue, Fast & Furious is a much more significant scandal than covering up a second rate burglary of your opponent's campaign headquarters. But, that's just me.

Media might not have access to the information. Again, this is what you're going with, a media conspiracy? :lol


There's been no lie proven that got us into the Iraq war. That's all partisan bickering. And, no, it's not germane to this discussion...it's merely diversion.

Sure there has been. You simply hold people to different standards depending whose party they're from. But as I said earlier, your dishonesty isn't new.



And, yet, no media outlet is picking up that meme for the Democrats and making the case for equivalency. Reporting what Democrats are saying and what is being said in a congressional hearing is not investigative reporting.

What should the media say, Yoni? Based on what? What do you really think the media knows and they're not letting out? lol

[Yonivore]

You asked for coverage. That's coverage.
I'm sorry you weren't able to resolve the finer point being made that I desire INVESTIGATIVE reporting.


What does that has to do with Issa being on a witch hunt?
Well, for one, I don't believe it's a witch hunt. I believe real crimes were committed by agents of the federal government and I also believe it is well withing Congressman Issa's charge as Chair of the House Oversight Committee to see how far up the food chain the putrid scandal extends.


Media might not have access to the information. Again, this is what you're going with, a media conspiracy? :lol
Sharyl Attkisson has done some pretty good work from which others could take a lead.


Sure there has been. You simply hold people to different standards depending whose party they're from. But as I said earlier, your dishonesty isn't new.
No, there hasn't.


What should the media say, Yoni? Based on what? What do you really think the media knows and they're not letting out? lol
I don't think they know anything. I just don't think there is any widespread media curiosity on the scandal.

[ElNono]

I'm sorry you weren't able to resolve the finer point being made that I desire INVESTIGATIVE reporting.

What you asked:

No, not a conspiracy but, where is the coverage?

What you desire is well known AND irrelevant, Yoni. You're as partisan hack as they come, not much different than Issa.


Well, for one, I don't believe it's a witch hunt.

Of course you don't. Nobody here expect any different.

CosmicCowboy I don't consider a partisan cheerleader. I can't say the same about you though.


No, there hasn't.

Sure there has. I don't expect you to agree with me though.


I don't think they know anything. I just don't think there is any widespread media curiosity on the scandal.

So you want them to do "investigative journalism" without knowing anything? Sounds like something you do all the time, tbh.

[Yonivore]

What you asked:
No, you're right. I'll hold your hand better in the future.


Sure there has. I don't expect you to agree with me though.
What was the specific lie?

I mean, in Holder's case, the latest is the is able to look Chairman Issa in the face and say an internal email that specifically discusses "Fast and Furious" doesn't discuss "Fast and Furious."


So you want them to do "investigative journalism" without knowing anything? Sounds like something you do all the time, tbh.
It's called developing sources. The New York Times is pretty adept at disclosing secret government programs using unnamed sources within the government. No reason they couldn't develop similar sources within a despicable scandal such as "Fast and Furious."

Woodward and Bernstein used an unnamed source named "Deep Throat."

Sharyl Attkisson has used government sources to break much of her investigative coverage of "Fast & Furious."

What do want them to do just wait until the government tells them the truth on matters?

[ElNono]

No, you're right. I'll move the goalposts better in the future.

Isn't that what you always do?


What was the specific lie?

There were no WMDs in Iraq.


I mean, in Holder's case, the latest is the is able to look Chairman Issa in the face and say an internal email that specifically discusses "Fast and Furious" doesn't discuss "Fast and Furious."

I didn't say Holder didn't lie. I've stated the opposite actually.


It's called developing sources. The New York Times is pretty adept at disclosing secret government programs using unnamed sources within the government. No reason they couldn't develop similar sources within a despicable scandal such as "Fast and Furious."

They've done that with other insider stories in this administration. Not sure you're aware an investigation was recently launched by the administration over leaks to the media, including specifically the NYTimes.

You still haven't told me what you think the NYTimes is hiding about "Fast and Furious.", and based on what?



Woodward and Bernstein used an unnamed source named "Deep Throat."

There's no unnamed source here. Not sure what makes you think the media has one, or if they do, they won't use it, considering they've done so in the past, including during this administration. Again, what do you think the media is hiding?

BTW, the Watergate scandal had a smoking gun, namely the audio tape between Nixon and Haldeman in the oval office. There's no "smoking gun" in this case (yet).


What do want them to do just wait until the government tells them the truth on matters?

Have the relevant, non-partisan authorities conduct an investigation. Such a novel concept.

[Yonivore]

Isn't that what you always do?
I've admitted to not being clear enough for you. What do you want? The links you posted could have been reported by anyone with C-SPAN on their television.

Scandals are rarely exposed by merely reporting what everyone can see for themselves.

But, again, I'll be more explicit in the future just for you.


There were no WMDs in Iraq.
Debatable but, not a lie. There were WMDs in Iraq just not the stockpiles that were expected. Nonetheless, the lie would be where the Bush administration knowingly said there were when they demonstrably knew there weren't any WMD's in Iraq.

Where was that lie? It didn't occur.


I didn't say Holder didn't lie. I've stated the opposite actually.
And, you're satisfied to just wait until this all just resolves itself through government investigations?


They've done that with other insider stories in this administration. Not sure you're aware an investigation was recently launched by the administration over leaks to the media, including specifically the NYTimes.
Funny how the Democrats lauded the leaks when done in the Bush administration but, now, want heads to roll in an Obama administration. And, speaking of partisan hackery; remember how awful it was that Valerie Plame was outed by the Bush Administration to the point a special prosecutor was appointed to discover something that was already widely known; that Richard Armitage was the government official that outed her to Bob Novak?

But, now we've got a true case of real secret agents being compromised and endangered by sources feeding the New York Times and the best Obama can do is investigate? Where's the special prosecutor?


You still haven't told me what you think the NYTimes is hiding about "Fast and Furious.", and based on what?
I don't know that they're hiding anything. I don't even know if they've bothered to look into it beyond what can be viewed on C-SPAN.

I've never claimed the media was hiding anything related to Fast & Furious; just that they have an obvious incuriosity about what appears to be a fairly significant scandal.


There's no unnamed source here. Not sure what makes you think the media has one, or if they do, they won't use it, considering they've done so in the past, including during this administration. Again, what do you think the media is hiding?
Never said they were hiding anything. Are you suggesting they are trying to develop sources and failing?


BTW, the Watergate scandal had a smoking gun, namely the audio tape between Nixon and Haldeman in the oval office. There's no "smoking gun" in this case (yet).
There are literally thousands of actual smoking guns, hundreds of dead Mexicans, and one dead federal agent.


Have the relevant, non-partisan authorities conduct an investigation. Such a novel concept.
Good luck with that.

[ElNono]

I've admitted to not being clear enough for you.

I disagree, I thought you were pretty clear, your claim just didn't pan out. I can see where that sucks for you.


Debatable but, not a lie.

Disagree here too. Absolutely a lie. Made even more embarrassing by the fact we sent a general to lie in front of the the entire UN security council with fabricated "intel".

lol mobile chemical weapons labs


And, you're satisfied to just wait until this all just resolves itself through government investigations?

Never said that, actually I said the opposite. Heads should roll once we know what transpired. Sadly, we have precedent like Alberto Gonzales lying to Congress too and nothing coming out of it.


Funny how the Democrats lauded the leaks when done in the Bush administration but, now, want heads to roll in an Obama administration.

Yet, Issa is all for leaks now, apparently. Heck, you can't wait for some insider source to leak something about "fast and furious".

Pot meet kettle.


I don't know that they're hiding anything. I don't even know if they've bothered to look into it beyond what can be viewed on C-SPAN.

So you don't know, but you already made up your mind anyways... :lol


I've never claimed the media was hiding anything related to Fast & Furious; just that they have an obvious incuriosity about what appears to be a fairly significant scandal.

Scandals sell. We know that much.


Never said they were hiding anything. Are you suggesting they are trying to develop sources and failing?

No, I'm merely stating that they might not have an inside source in this case. Sources with direct access to verifiable information might not be as easy to find as you think they are. Somebody coming out there and saying "blah blah" doesn't mean anything if there's no documentation to back it up.


There are literally thousands of actual smoking guns, hundreds of dead Mexicans, and one dead federal agent.

That's simply no proof of wrongdoing. It could've been just a fuckup (and whoever responsible for it should pay the consequences). But Issa isn't interested in that, since it doesn't score him the political points he wants to score.


Good luck with that.

Well, I'll take facts over speculation any day of the week now.

[Yonivore]

I disagree, I thought you were pretty clear, your claim just didn't pan out. I can see where that sucks for you.
Okay.


Disagree here too. Absolutely a lie. Made even more embarrassing by the fact we sent a general to lie in front of the the entire UN security council with fabricated "intel".

lol mobile chemical weapons labs
You still haven't said what, exactly, was the lie. Bad Intel? Sure, could be. Mistaken assumptions? Could be. Flat out mistakes? Quite possible. But, lies? You haven't said what exactly was the lie.


Never said that, actually I said the opposite. Heads should roll once we know what transpired. Sadly, we have precedent like Alberto Gonzales lying to Congress too and nothing coming out of it.
Glad to hear you're in favor of a special prosecutor to get to the bottom of it then.


Yet, Issa is all for leaks now, apparently. Heck, you can't wait for some insider source to leak something about "fast and furious".

Pot meet kettle.
What's Issa leaking? Other than he's in possession of information that proves Holder is a liar, nothing.


So you don't know, but you already made up your mind anyways... :lol
Yeah, I'm pretty sure crimes have been committed and I'm also fairly certain the lies reach at least to the level of the Attorney General's office.


Scandals sell. We know that much.
Then you'd think they'd be raking the bottoms for their own Deep Throat on this matter.


No, I'm merely stating that they might not have an inside source in this case. Sources with direct access to verifiable information might not be as easy to find as you think they are. Somebody coming out there and saying "blah blah" doesn't mean anything if there's no documentation to back it up.
We'll see. It appears someone provided Issa's office with some inside information.


That's simply no proof of wrongdoing. It could've been just a fuckup (and whoever responsible for it should pay the consequences). But Issa isn't interested in that, since it doesn't score him the political points he wants to score.
Well, there is proof Holder lied about when and how much his office knew about Fast and Furious.


Well, I'll take facts over speculation any day of the week now.
You don't care about facts.

[ElNono]

You still haven't said what, exactly, was the lie. Bad Intel? Sure, could be. Mistaken assumptions? Could be. Flat out mistakes? Quite possible. But, lies? You haven't said what exactly was the lie.

Sure I did. No weapons of mass destruction. No mobile chemical weapons labs. No imminent danger. Politicians lied, people died.


Glad to hear you're in favor of a special prosecutor to get to the bottom of it then.

Sure, I fully support a non-partisan investigation. The problem for Issa is that the election is in November, and he needs to harvest his political points before then.


What's Issa leaking? Other than he's in possession of information that proves Holder is a liar, nothing.

I didn't say Issa was leaking, I said you and Issa would love to see a secret informant popping out and spilling dirt.

Heck, you're *demanding* that the New York Times develops such source. Apparently, you're ok with leaks when they point their fingers to the blue team, but they're shameful when they point to the red team. Partisanship and hypocrisy at it's finest, tbh.


Yeah, I'm pretty sure crimes have been committed and I'm also fairly certain the lies reach at least to the level of the Attorney General's office.

Based on what?


Then you'd think they'd be raking the bottoms for their own Deep Throat on this matter.

Do you know that they're not?


We'll see. It appears someone provided Issa's office with some inside information.

I'm sure Issa is eager to notify the general public about it. Not sure the general public cares, however.


Well, there is proof Holder lied about when and how much his office knew about Fast and Furious.

Politicians lying isn't necessarily a shocker or scandal. Politics wouldn't exist if that'd be the case. In my opinion, what's going to make or brake this case is an actual document showing premeditated wrongdoing.


I don't care about facts.

Do you ever? lol

[Yonivore]

Sure I did. No weapons of mass destruction. No mobile chemical weapons labs. No imminent danger. Politicians lied, people died.
Where is your proof they knew what they were saying was wrong?

George Tenet said it was a slam dunk.

The allegation Vice President Cheney's office tried to bias the intelligence was investigated and unfounded.

Perhaps they were just wrong. That's not a lie.


Sure, I fully support a non-partisan investigation. The problem for Issa is that the election is in November, and he needs to harvest his political points before then.
Congress is elected every two years, when would you propose they do their jobs? Besides, Issa has been asking for Holder to produce documents and testimony since early last year.

I think if Holder had been cooperative he could have had this behind him by now. Unless, of course, he has something to hide.


I didn't say Issa was leaking, I said you and Issa would love to see a secret informant popping out and spilling dirt.
I'd rather see Holder be forthcoming.


Heck, you're *demanding* that the New York Times develops such source. Apparently, you're ok with leaks when they point their fingers to the blue team, but they're shameful when they point to the red team. Partisanship and hypocrisy at it's finest, tbh.
No, just curious why NYTimes isn't as curious about this as it is about national secrets.

[ChumpDumper]

yoni's best defense of Bush is that he was a complete idiot and thousands of Americans died because his stupidity.

:tu

[ElNono]

Where is your proof they knew what they were saying was wrong?

Colin Powell himself demanded an explanation (http://www.capitolhillblue.com/node/38813) from the Pentagon and the CIA as to why he was lied to. But you probably know something the general doesn't. :rolleyes

And BTW, even if the intel was unreliable, the "source" didn't fabricate the BS videos shown at the UN of "mobile chemical weapons labs". Ultimately, politicians lied, people died.

Oh and the last person that should be asking for "proof" is you. You have to submit yourself to the same standard first.


Congress is elected every two years, when would you propose they do their jobs? Besides, Issa has been asking for Holder to produce documents and testimony since early last year.

What was stopping Issa from asking for a special prosecutor back then and letting the investigation run it's course? Oh, right, he can't get to score his political points while an independent investigation is conducted, and it's not even a sure thing he could get the support he needs to get a special prosecutor.

Better get on with the dog and pony show, elections are coming up.


I think if Holder had been cooperative he could have had this behind him by now. Unless, of course, he has something to hide.

Perhaps Holder feels this is a political show, and should there be any will to actually conduct a formal, independent investigation, one would've been launched by now. But I can only tell you what it looks like from the outside. As an American, I would love to have some independent party to get to the bottom of this. The problem is Issa isn't independent, and has a concrete agenda. That doesn't mean Holder is a saint, or any such thing. The problem is that this political circus show simply delays what should've been a swift investigation into this matter a long time ago.


I'd rather see Holder be forthcoming.

I would rather see a lot of politicians be forthcoming. That includes former attorney general Gonzales lying to Congress. But politicians have a way of lying and getting away with it. That includes Barry, red team, blue team, etc obviously.


No, just curious why NYTimes isn't as curious about this as it is about national secrets.

How do you know they're not as curious?

[Wild Cobra]

But he isn't... not even close.

lol male cheerleader
Sorry, I can't help it. I think your insane form of attacks rubbed off on me. I think you deserve the same stupid line of attacks you do to me. Don't you?

[Wild Cobra]

No, not a conspiracy but, where is the coverage?

That really is the key, isn't it. Unless you wake people up to think about it, they don't realize the medias bias by their silence.

[Wild Cobra]

You asked for coverage. That's coverage.

Hasn't similar coverage in the past, during the last administration, always eluded to it being the president's fault?

[ElNono]

Sorry, I can't help it. I think your insane form of attacks rubbed off on me. I think you deserve the same stupid line of attacks you do to me. Don't you?

:sleep


Hasn't similar coverage in the past, during the last administration, always eluded to it being the president's fault?

This sentence doesn't make sense at all. Unless you mean 'coverup' where it says 'coverage' and 'alluded' where it says 'eluded'.

Which still doesn't make sense because Yoni was asking about media coverage, of which there's plenty, as I pointed out.

[ChumpDumper]

lol eluded

[Wild Cobra]

yoni's best defense of Bush is that he was a complete idiot and thousands of Americans died because his stupidity.

:tu
Believe as you wish. I saw a different picture when I was in was at a Net Control Station in the Nuclear Theater during Desert Storm.

If Saddam had complied with the UN resolution of the time, we would have left him alone.

[ChumpDumper]

Believe as you wish. I saw a different picture when I was in was at a Net Control Station in the Nuclear Theater during Desert Storm.You changed parts.

[Wild Cobra]

:sleep



This sentence doesn't make sense at all. Unless you mean 'coverup' where it says 'coverage' and 'alluded' where it says 'eluded'.

Which still doesn't make sense because Yoni was asking about media coverage, of which there's plenty, as I pointed out.
I'm sorry if you don't understand this form of media bias. That's your lack of awareness/competence. not mine, and I'm too fucking drunk right now to try to elaborate.

[ElNono]

I'm sorry if you don't understand this form of media bias. That's your lack of awareness/competence. not mine, and I'm too fucking drunk right now to try to elaborate.

What do you think the media is really hiding?

lol perennially drunk

[ChumpDumper]

I'm sorry if you don't understand this form of media bias. That's your lack of awareness/competence. not mine, and I'm too fucking drunk right now to try to elaborate.That and you can't put together a coherent sentence.

[Wild Cobra]

You changed parts.
Yes.

I was a "Parts Changer" on sophisticated communications equipment. Also heard the communications.

Can you say "Electronic Technician?"

I worked on digital multiplexers, crypto equipment, radios, etc. in the nuclear theater, at the Net control Station of a nuclear network. I also enjoyed relieving the operators doing their jobs, and probably talked to all the JCS of the time, at one tome or another.

[Wild Cobra]

What do you think the media is really hiding?

lol perennially drunk
Not hiding. Rather not wanting to make their guy look bad.

[ChumpDumper]

Yes.

I was a "Parts Changer" on sophisticated communications equipment. Also heard the communications.

Can you say "Electronic Technician?"

I worked on digital multiplexers, crypto equipment, radios, etc. in the nuclear theater, at the Net control Station of a nuclear network. I also enjoyed relieving the operators doing their jobs, and probably talked to all the JCS of the time, at one tome or another.Mistakes were made.

Parts were changed.

[Wild Cobra]

That and you can't put together a coherent sentence.
Right now,I don't care.

I lost count, but I think I'm on my sixth mixed drink. making them rather strong too.

maybe you can trip me up, maybe you can't.

[ElNono]

Not hiding. Rather not wanting to make their guy look bad.

Why not? How is Holder 'their guy'?

[ChumpDumper]

Right now,I don't care.

I lost count, but I think I'm on my sixth mixed drink. making them rather strong too.

maybe you can trip me up, maybe you can't.Losing track of how much you drink alone?

I just pity you now.

[ElNono]

Actually, nevermind. I'm really not that interested in your conspiracy theories. Carry on.

[Wild Cobra]

Mistakes were made.

Parts were changed.
Yes, at one point, that happened.

The equipment we had very rarely went out. The biggest mistake made on the equipment was then some green technician decided the +/- 10 hz on the 10MHZ crystal oscillator needed to be exact. Every time I checked the frequencies, they were at most 4 hz off. We had several of there radios. Anyway, this idiot, attempted to tune all these oscillators "exact." That's something you just don't do. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is a long time know saying, and for a reason. It took several weeks to find that sweet spot again, where these oscillators would stop drifting.

Really...

A 10 hz range for a 10 mhz oscillator is only a 0.0001% tolerance. Once you are within that range, DO NOT FUCK WITH IT!

[Wild Cobra]

Losing track of how much you drink alone?

I just pity you now.
Yes, right now I am alone. Not for long though....

[Wild Cobra]

Actually, nevermind. I'm really not that interested in your conspiracy theories. Carry on.
Yes, I understand. You can win, so why try.

[ChumpDumper]

Yes, right now I am alone. Not for long though....Dial-a-whore.

[Wild Cobra]

Dial-a-whore.
Is that what you do?

No.

It's now about 2:15 here. My girlfriend is a bartender. She will be leaving work in about 30-45 minutes. Sooner if she was able to stay caught up.

[ChumpDumper]

Is that what you do?Never had to.

[ChumpDumper]

It's now about 2:15 here. My girlfriend is a bartender. She will be leaving work in about 30-45 minutes.Great, she gets to deal with drunks at home too.

Even sadder.

[Wild Cobra]

Never had to.
Neither have I.

I figured you must be talking from experience.

[ChumpDumper]

Neither have I.

I figured you must be talking from experience.I never got stupid drunk alone either.

[Wild Cobra]

I never got stupid drunk alone either.
Yes, I understand.

You're just stupid, without having to get drunk.

[ChumpDumper]

Yes, I understand.

You're just stupid, without having to get drunk.Oh, you're an angry drunk too.

Understandable.

[Wild Cobra]

Oh, you're an angry drunk too.

Understandable.
Angry?

No...

If I was angry at you, you would know it.

I am used to your childish chump monkey attitude. You don't phase me much any more.

Have a nice day...

I sure will, once the doorbell rings...

[ChumpDumper]

Angry?

No...

If I was angry at you, you would know it.

I am used to your childish chump monkey attitude. You don't phase me much any more.

Have a nice day...

I sure will, once the doorbell rings.She won't, though.

Lush.

[Wild Cobra]

She won't, though.

Lush.
believe as you wiosh.

I do have a question however. I'm just drunk enough, and don't remember the answer to this.

Would you please remind me why I care what you think? For the life of me, I can;t think of anything.

[ChumpDumper]

lol wiosh

[Wild Cobra]

lol wiosh
LOL... "wish."

"I" and "O" are next to each other. haven't you ever missed a key on the keyboard?

[ChumpDumper]

LOL... "wish."

"I" and "O" are next to each other. haven't you ever missed a key on the keyboard?You hit them both.

You're so drunk you don't even know what you are doing with your own hands.

[Wild Cobra]

You hit them both.

You're so drunk you don't even know what you are doing with your own hands.
An that is a problem... why?

Tine to pour another. My glass only has ice left in it.

[ChumpDumper]

An that is a problem... why?If you haven't figured it out at this age...


Tine to pour another. My glass only has ice left in it.Now there you missed a key.

[Wild Cobra]

If you haven't figured it out at this age...

Now there you missed a key.
Who fucking cares, besides tyou?

Are you my nanny?

Time to goo.... I think she's here.

[ChumpDumper]

Who fucking cares, besides tyou?

Are you my nanny?

Time to goo.... I think she's here.lol tyou

lol goo

[jack sommerset]

The committee, led by Republican Chairman Darrell Issa, will consider whether to hold Holder in contempt of Congress for "his failure to produce documents specified in the Committee's October 12, 2011, subpoena" related to its investigation of the much-maligned "Fast and Furious" gun-walking operation,Luck_The_Fakers_the committee said in a statement.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/house-committee-schedules-vote-hold-eric-holder-contempt-144220924.html

Not good for Holder. God bless

[ChumpDumper]

Consider.

Wow.

[boutons_deux]

Like dubya and dickhead did, all Barry has to do is to tell fishing expeditioner Issa to go fuck himself and claim executive privilege.

[CosmicCowboy]

Like dubya and dickhead did, all Barry has to do is to tell fishing expeditioner Issa to go fuck himself and claim executive privilege.

No way Obama backs Holder if the shit hits the fan. When the issue gets too hot he will dump him just like he did Reverend Wright.

[CosmicCowboy]

This isn't a red or blue thing like it is being played in here...there are a lot of democrats pissed at Holder too...At least 31 currently are expected to vote for the contempt citation...and I expect a lot more to follow...nobody wants to go home and tell their constituents they don't give a shit about Agent Terry or F&F.

[boutons_deux]

fabricated-controversial Wright didn't work for Obama.

[CosmicCowboy]

fabricated-controversial Wright didn't work for Obama.

He sure as hell did a 180 reverse and threw him under the bus when it was politically expedient and then tried to bribe him to shut up.

[boutons_deux]

and Barry has governed exactly according to Wright's tirades.

Fox Repug fabricated controversy

[ChumpDumper]

This isn't a red or blue thing like it is being played in here...there are a lot of democrats pissed at Holder too...At least 31 currently are expected to vote for the contempt citation...and I expect a lot more to follow...nobody wants to go home and tell their constituents they don't give a shit about Agent Terry or F&F.I'm of the mind that constituents largely don't give a shit about Agent Terry or F&F. Haven't seen anything that contradicts that.

[CosmicCowboy]

I'm of the mind that constituents largely don't give a shit about Agent Terry or F&F. Haven't seen anything that contradicts that.

Oh, the economy is still issue #1, but I guarantee you there are a lot of moderates and conservatives that are offended by this issue.

[ChumpDumper]

Oh, the economy is still issue #1, but I guarantee you there are a lot of moderates and conservatives that are offended by this issue.Any non-anecdotal evidence of this?

[CosmicCowboy]

Any non-anecdotal evidence it's not true?

[ChumpDumper]

Any non-anecdotal evidence it's not true?Ah, now CC reaches back into his bag of logical fallacies.

http://www.felixthecat.com/IMG/multimedia/wallpaper/outofthebag.gif

[TeyshaBlue]

Considering there are about 3,750,000 google hits to Fast and Furious Scandal, there's probably a better than zero chance CC's correct.

[ChumpDumper]

Considering there are about 3,750,000 google hits to Fast and Furious Scandal, there's probably a better than zero chance CC's correct.Echo chambers come in all sizes. I'm talking about votes that will change because of this.

[TeyshaBlue]

"Oh, the economy is still issue #1, but I guarantee you there are a lot of moderates and conservatives that are offended by this issue."

"Any non-anecdotal evidence of this?"

I missed the "votes" caveat.

[ChumpDumper]

"Oh, the economy is still issue #1, but I guarantee you there are a lot of moderates and conservatives that are offended by this issue."

"Any non-anecdotal evidence of this?"

I missed the "votes" caveat.Sorry, should have been more precise. That's the ultimate measure for me. Just seems like another scandal that more politically active people care a lot more about than the general voting public. I mean, millions were personally offended by Clinton's cheating, right?

[CosmicCowboy]

Whose votes? The democratic congressmen that are voting to find Holder in contempt?

[TeyshaBlue]

"Sorry, should have been more precise. That's the ultimate measure for me. Just seems like another scandal that more politically active people care a lot more about than the general voting public."

Could very well be at this stage.

[ChumpDumper]

Whose votes? The democratic congressmen that are voting to find Holder in contempt?No.

[ElNono]

This isn't a red or blue thing like it is being played in here...there are a lot of democrats pissed at Holder too...At least 31 currently are expected to vote for the contempt citation...and I expect a lot more to follow...nobody wants to go home and tell their constituents they don't give a shit about Agent Terry or F&F.

Thank you. That's was exactly my point from the get go. :toast

[Nbadan]

More of nothing...


“This is political theater, and it’s been political theater from the beginning,” said Holder’s former spokesman, Matthew Miller. “There is no evidence that the attorney general or senior Justice officials knew anything about the Fast and Furious tactics. I don’t think Chairman Issa wants a solution. He wants a contempt vote.”

Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/justice-department-aims-to-avoid-contempt-vote-on-holder-over-fast-and-furious/2012/06/11/gJQAVHnzVV_story.html?wprss=rss_politics

[ElNono]

If the House committee cites Holder for criminal contempt, it would open a process that requires the House speaker to schedule a floor vote. If passed by the full House, the matter would then move to the U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia, Ronald C. Machen Jr., who is an employee of the Justice Department.

:lol dog and pony show

[boutons_deux]

a reminder of what the yelling over the ATF's "Fast and Furious" operation is really "about:"

Perhaps the most bizarre aspect of this affair is what [Rep. Darrell] Issa once suggested his investigation will uncover. In an interview with Sean Hannity, Issa claimed that the Obama administration “made a crisis” when they continued the Bush-era gunrunning operations because they wanted to “us[e] this crisis to somehow take away or limit people’s Second Amendment rights.” This accusation originates from a former militiaman who supports violent resistance to imagined government attempts to seize his guns. And it amounts to an accusation that a series of botched gun stings that begun during the Bush Administration were actually part of a secret Obama plot to release guns to Mexican drug lords, so that those guns could then be used to kill federal agents, which would then cause a national uprising in support of gun control.

So at the most basic level, the effort to take down Holder isn't just a garden-variety gambit aimed at blaming a Cabinet member and an administration for a botched operation hatched by underlings as part of a "gunwalking" tactic developed during the Bush administration. It's part of the broader claim on the Right that Obama is secretly plotting to take away everybody's guns. There is zero, absolutely zero, evidence for any Obama "assault on the Second Amendment," which is precisely why people like Issa have to cook up a theory this crazy. Beneath all the talk is yet another sharp dog whistle to "the base."

http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/964399/the_conservative_obsession_over_eric_holder_is_a_g un-nut_dog_whistle/

[CosmicCowboy]

I absolutely believe that the underlying motive of F&F was to justify strengthening gun laws and try to re-impose the assault rifle ban.

[Wild Cobra]

I absolutely believe that the underlying motive of F&F was to justify strengthening gun laws and try to re-impose the assault rifle ban.
Yep, why let a good crisis go to waste, and when you don't have a crisis.... create one...

[boutons_deux]

As always, the Repugs run a charade to hide their real motiviation.

And of course, it's an election year, so they will do anything and everything, in typical bad faith, to harass and distract the Exec branch. That's a lot more fun than actually running Congress to solve problems and advance the country.

[Wild Cobra]

_mzcbXi1Tkk

[TeyshaBlue]

As always, the Repugs run a charade to hide their real motiviation.

And of course, it's an election year, so they will do anything and everything, in typical bad faith, to harass and distract the Exec branch. That's a lot more fun than actually running Congress to solve problems and advance the country.

Yeah, Holder lying to congress is really a charade. lol

[Nbadan]

Five Things To Know About The Republican Witchhunt Against Attorney General Holder
In 2006, during the presidency of George W. Bush, the Justice Department launched the first of a series of misguided “gunrunning” schemes that eventually led to the death of federal Agent Brian Terry. Rather than look to ways to prevent such a tragedy from happening again, however, House Oversight Chair Darrell Issa’s (R-CA) spent his tenure as a committee chair trying unsuccessfully to embarrass Attorney General Eric Holder.

Next week, Issa plans to escalate this witchhunt by holding an committee vote on a resolution to hold the Attorney General in contempt of Congress. Here’s what you need to know about this vote:


1. Issa Has No Case: Issa’s uncovered no evidence showing Holder bears any blame for the botched operations begun under George W. Bush, even though the Justice Department turned over thousands of pages of documents concerning the operations. Instead of accepting this fact, Issa has requested many more documents containing confidential information regarding ongoing law enforcement investigations, and is now threatening to hold Holder in contempt if these documents are not turned over. Holder is entirely correct to withhold these documents, however, because Justice Department documents are not subject to congressional subpoena if they would reveal “strategies and procedures that could be used by individuals seeking to evade law enforcement efforts.”

2. Reagan’s Justice Department Agreed With Holder: President Reagan’s Justice Department warned in the 1980s that the Constitution’s separation of powers prevents the kind of documents Issa is seeking from being revealed to Congress because of the risk that the legislature could “exert pressure or attempt to influence the prosecution of criminal cases.”



Read more: http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/06/13/498521/five-things-to-know-about-the-house-oversight-chairs-witchhunt-against-attorney-general-holder/

[TeyshaBlue]

lol thinkprogress

[EVAY]

Regardless of the extent to which F and F is anti-gun or not (and I tend to believe not),
Holder is, imo, the worst Attorney General this Country has seen in decades.

I consider myself a moderate independent and I believe that Holder is by far the worst appointment that Obama has made.

He (Holder) seems to combine breathtaking arrogance with stunning ineffectiveness.

What a combination.

[ElNono]

lol conspiracies

[CosmicCowboy]

Regardless of the extent to which F and F is anti-gun or not (and I tend to believe not),
Holder is, imo, the worst Attorney General this Country has seen in decades.

I consider myself a moderate independent and I believe that Holder is by far the worst appointment that Obama has made.

He (Holder) seems to combine breathtaking arrogance with stunning ineffectiveness.

What a combination.

Agreed. Holder has turned the Justice Department into a political arm of the Executive branch.

[clambake]

alberto gonzales says hi

[CosmicCowboy]

alberto gonzales says hi

Holder has taken it to a whole new level.

[clambake]

sure, give al a pass.

[boutons_deux]

Regardless of the extent to which F and F is anti-gun or not (and I tend to believe not),
Holder is, imo, the worst Attorney General this Country has seen in decades.

I consider myself a moderate independent and I believe that Holder is by far the worst appointment that Obama has made.

He (Holder) seems to combine breathtaking arrogance with stunning ineffectiveness.

What a combination.

bullshit. Alberto Gonzalez was the worst. He now is commentator on Fox Repug network, where the bar is lowered to the gutter.

[boutons_deux]

Issa Blasted Investigation Of Bush Attorney General As A ‘Political Witch Hunt”

House Oversight Chairman Darrell Issa (R-CA) continues to threaten Attorney General Eric Holder with a contempt of Congress citation should he not comply with Issa’s request for a wide-range of documents relating to the Bush-administration-initiated “Fast and Furious” program. The Department of Justice has said releasing some of the documents Issa is demanding could jeopardize ongoing criminal investigations.

But, Issa has not always favored executive branch compliance with Congressional records requests. In 2007, Issa complained to the Press Enterprise of Riverside, CA that scrutiny into Bush Attorney General Alberto Gonzales and the firings of numerous U.s. Attorneys amounted to a “political witch hunt” by Democrats:

“I see no evidence it (the attorneys’ firing) was political,” Issa, R-Vista, said by telephone between votes on the House floor. “They want to imply there was criminal behavior when there isn’t even a criminal allegation.” …

Justice Department officials said the firings were based largely on performance issues, and released thousands of pages of e-mails and other documents to substantiate the claim. Issa said releasing the documents was a mistake on the part of the administration. U.S. attorneys are “at will” employees and can be let go without reason or public explanation.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/06/14/499506/issa-blasted-investigation-of-bush-attorney-general-as-a-political-witch-hunt/

witch hunts and deficits by Repugs, OK

witch hunts and deficits by Dems, hell no!

[CosmicCowboy]

:lmao

Boutons can be so out there at times that he is freaking hilarious.

[clambake]

cowboy still giving al a pass.

[TeyshaBlue]

lol thinkprogress

[CosmicCowboy]

cowboy still giving al a pass.

Clambake pulling out the old "well it's OK because someone else in the distant past did something wrong" justification.

[clambake]

Clambake pulling out the old "well it's OK because someone else in the distant past did something wrong" justification.

i only submitted those lame post to attract equally lame post.

success is mine!!!!

[clambake]

lol distant past.

[TeyshaBlue]

i only submitted those lame post to attract equally lame post.

success is mine!!!!

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/teyshablue/DrSteveBrule.gif

:lol

[clambake]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/teyshablue/DrSteveBrule.gif

:lol

:toast thank you! i didn't want my greatness to go unnoticed!