Who's haunted more by the Thunder? Portland or Seattle?

[da_suns_fan]

Interested to hear people's thoughts.

[scanry]

Portland and it ain't even close.

[VBM]

I would think Portland is. If the situation is like most other arena referendums, Seattle fans played a part in the Sonics not getting a new arena. No owner will stick around in a city with a subpar arena. Basically, they asked for it.

Portland went against history (Bowie over Jordan) and the eye-test (everyone knew Durant was going to be a special player on the pro-level, whereas there was nothing to suggest that Oden would be a superstar Dwight-like player). Throw in the fact that Portland's medical staff seems blatantly oblivious to medical warning signs and could have avoided the Oden fiasco by being more thorough with their background checks on him, Portland fan has to feel just as disappointed in their management as Seattle did, if not moreso.

[Findog]

Sorry but it has to be Seattle. Better to have a team that sucks and doesn't always make wise personnel decisions over watching your former team that you didn't deserve to lose go on to make the Finals.

Seattle had already renovated the Key nine years before Schultz started whining about getting a new arena. It's actually a great arena for watching a game. It just doesn't have the footspace for all of the stuff Stern wants in arenas now, like a Chili's or a sports bar. If Schultz had sold to local ownership, they'd still be in Seattle. There was no doubt at all what Bennett was going to do once he had the team in his possession.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Seattle. The problems that Portland has run much deeper than just the Oden pick. Given the recent reports about the Blazers medical staff and possible foul ups there's no guarantee Durant stays healthy. Or even if he does Roy and Aldridge's injury issues would leave them as a one man show like the 06 Lakers or T-Mac's Magic. Flip those picks around and the Blazers faithful are probably only missing out on a few playoff appearances as a one and done team at best.

Meanwhile there's no reason that all the wonderful things OKC has done couldn't have been done in Seattle. Sonics fans got to watch their team suck through the early stages of the rebuilding mode and get none of the payoff. Everything has come up roses for OKC since they left. Even when it looked like Green was shaping up as a bust they traded him for Perkins (a trade that many decried as stupid because Green was young and Perk looked like a TOSB) only for Green to then miss the season with a heart condition.

[timtonymanu]

Definitely Seattle. Portland still has a team and is more concerned about the upcoming draft instead of Durant.

Seattle has to live with OKC holding their only championship banner and their other banners. To make matters worse, the Thunder could really be winning a title soon. Seattle is definitely haunted by that because it could have been them right now as the Sonics.

[da_suns_fan]

I could go either way.

The thing with Portland is that "it" happened AGAIN. They might have passed on the best player in the world TWICE.

I think back to that draft night and the video of the Portland "war room" applauding themselves after they made the pick.

Idiots.

[JoeTait75]

I would think Portland is. If the situation is like most other arena referendums, Seattle fans played a part in the Sonics not getting a new arena. No owner will stick around in a city with a subpar arena. Basically, they asked for it.

They'd just gutted and renovated Seattle Center Coliseum a decade earlier built facilities for both the Seahawks and Mariners. At some point you have to draw the line.

[VBM]

At some point you have to draw the line.

Sure, and they drew that line. It's all supply and demand, and every damn city wants a team and is willing to pay if given the opportunity. It's not right, and I understand the city of Seattle holding its ground, but at least they had a choice as to whether the team stayed or left. Portland fans had no say in the Oden draft pick.

[VBM]

By the way, this would be a great time for Houston Oiler fans to speak up. They had the same situation as Seattle when Tennessee faced STL in the Super Bowl.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

It's revisionist history to call the Blazers stupid for picking Oden. He was the consensus #1 overall pick at the time. Of the 30 teams in the NBA at least 25 would have picked Oden if they had the pick. You can't fault Portland for not seeing what no one else saw.

[BUMP]

Idiots.

:rolleyes

Oden was guaranteed to be the #1 pick no matter who got the 1st spot

[BUMP]

big 'ed Lor, beating me to the punch par per etc

[SamoanTD]

Seattle because Portland is used to this type of luck.

[lil_penny]

Well looking back at the choice now its quite easy to say it was dumb picking oden but remember at the time damn near everyone was saying to pick him... I remember thinking he was the obvious choice along with GM's and NBA analysts, sure it sucks seeing him play knowing he could of been ours but what can you do? People forget we also chose Webster over d will and cp3 by swapping our draft picks that one worked out great also! Or that we traded tyrus Thomas for lma and foye for Roy, you win some you lose some.

I would still say Seattle has it worse just for the reason they dont have a team anymore

[VBM]

Well looking back at the choice now its quite easy to say it was dumb picking oden but remember at the time damn near everyone was saying to pick him...

I think it's more that they picked him, and then a month later or so a problem was discovered in his knee (i don't think it was a fresh injury, but you might have a better memory on that than I do). Oden, if healthy, could have been damn good. The knock on Portland is that, had they done their due diligence, they would have discovered he had a healthy issue that could linger.

[JoeTait75]

IIRC, Oden's health issue as a freshman at Ohio State was in his wrist, not his knee. The knee didn't become an issue until after he was drafted.

[lil_penny]

IIRC, Oden's health issue as a freshman at Ohio State was in his wrist, not his knee. The knee didn't become an issue until after he was drafted.

Yea and from his interview a few months back he had said he punched a wall or something when he broke it, dude has just had horrible luck with his health. Not sure if its him, our medical staff or the curse :lol

[Killakobe81]

I think it's more that they picked him, and then a month later or so a problem was discovered in his knee (i don't think it was a fresh injury, but you might have a better memory on that than I do). Oden, if healthy, could have been damn good. The knock on Portland is that, had they done their due diligence, they would have discovered he had a healthy issue that could linger.

Count me in the Oden doubters camp. I could not put my finger on it but Simmons wrote a great article that said the same. He said, even though Oden had "star" personality/charisma (more so than durant the media felt he would be a great interview) but that he lacked the grace and poise of Durant on teh court, some would call it "swag". He saw a hitch in his gait and could tell one leg was shorter than the other. None of these are definitive signs of a bust, and If I had the #2 pick I would of taken ODen, without hesitation. But when a MJ, Kobe type scorer/star is avaialble you go for that star centers bust far too often to pss up a "special" kid like Durant.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

People are also glorifying pre-draft Durant. There was tons of talk about how he couldn't bench 185 and that he was too weak for the NBA. It's easy to pretend this was always the case, but Durant wasn't considered a 1000x safer pick than Oden the way people pretend he was. Oden was considered a 7 foot talent you see once every 5 years. No one was comparing KD to Jordan/Kobe in 2007, especially after he was upset by USC in the tourney while Oden dominated the tournament and every big man he faced taking his team to the championship.

[lefty]

lol Pacific Northwest

[djohn2oo8]

People are also glorifying pre-draft Durant. There was tons of talk about how he couldn't bench 185 and that he was too weak for the NBA. It's easy to pretend this was always the case, but Durant wasn't considered a 1000x safer pick than Oden the way people pretend he was. Oden was considered a 7 foot talent you see once every 5 years. No one was comparing KD to Jordan/Kobe in 2007, especially after he was upset by USC in the tourney while Oden dominated the tournament and every big man he faced taking his team to the championship.
To be fair, Rick Barnes is a shit coach, tbh.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

To be fair, Rick Barnes is a shit coach, tbh.
Proves my point more tbh.

Rick Barnes is an expert at taking talent and making it look like shit.

[Killakobe81]

People are also glorifying pre-draft Durant. There was tons of talk about how he couldn't bench 185 and that he was too weak for the NBA. It's easy to pretend this was always the case, but Durant wasn't considered a 1000x safer pick than Oden the way people pretend he was. Oden was considered a 7 foot talent you see once every 5 years. No one was comparing KD to Jordan/Kobe in 2007, especially after he was upset by USC in the tourney while Oden dominated the tournament and every big man he faced taking his team to the championship.

Maybe because I live in Texas (Dallas area) the perception i had was different. I think being in Big 12 country seeing so many of his games may have given me more chances to see how special he was. Yes, I do remember folks talking about his bench press but I remember Kenny Smith and other folks talking about how a ball does not weigh so much and he how he was a great natural scorer. Did I think Durant would be a 3x scoring champ already? No. But I distinctly recall defending his skinny frame to Jamstone and others who worried about his durability. IIRC, I said he struck me as the type to be skinny strong and durable a la Reggie Miller.

[VBM]

People are also glorifying pre-draft Durant. There was tons of talk about how he couldn't bench 185 and that he was too weak for the NBA. It's easy to pretend this was always the case, but Durant wasn't considered a 1000x safer pick than Oden the way people pretend he was. Oden was considered a 7 foot talent you see once every 5 years. No one was comparing KD to Jordan/Kobe in 2007, especially after he was upset by USC in the tourney while Oden dominated the tournament and every big man he faced taking his team to the championship.

Oden was viewed as the more "ready" of the two players. That's not at issue. However, Durant had a much higher ceiling than Oden coming out of college. Also, Killa was right about the Simmons article pointing out that Oden's legs aren't symmetrical. That wouldn't bug me in the mid-to-late first round, but you're talking about a franchise player with the #1 overall pick. If Durant's strength was an issue, you put him in an NBA strength and conditioning program. I also can't imagine Oden was checked out by many team's doctors, so I'm sure most squads assumed he was fully healthy (not including the wrist) coming out of college.

[Killakobe81]

Im not a stat geek, but I also believe that one of the nerds (Hollinger/Pruti? not sure) looked at projections based on players that rebounded and scored at the level Durant did and projected Durant to be the better player, IIRC.

Obviously size trumps perimeter players in MOST cases. But how many perimeter players with KD's wingspan could handle, shoot and rebound?

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Oden was viewed as the more "ready" of the two players. That's not at issue. However, Durant had a much higher ceiling than Oden coming out of college. Also, Killa was right about the Simmons article pointing out that Oden's legs aren't symmetrical. That wouldn't bug me in the mid-to-late first round, but you're talking about a franchise player with the #1 overall pick. If Durant's strength was an issue, you put him in an NBA strength and conditioning program. I also can't imagine Oden was checked out by many team's doctors, so I'm sure most squads assumed he was fully healthy (not including the wrist) coming out of college.
:lol more revisionist history saying Durant had a higher ceiling. People considered Oden to have Hakeem Olajuwon potential. Also more hindsight saying they should have detected his knee problem, while not remember what his specific knee problem was. He ended up discovering he needed microfracture surgery during the summer league, microfracture surgery isn't something you discover during predraft physicals/workouts. He had no knee injuries to speak of when he was drafted, it's revisionist history to pretend that wasn't the case or to pretend that one leg being a fraction of an inch longer than the other was anything more than something Bill Simmons talked about in an article while everyone else didn't see it as a big deal.

You're not fooling anyone by pretending that in 2007, you believed Oden having one leg longer than the other was something that you wouldn't use more than a mid-late 1st rounder on. Please explain how having one leg longer than the other directly led to his knee problems.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Maybe because I live in Texas (Dallas area) the perception i had was different. I think being in Big 12 country seeing so many of his games may have given me more chances to see how special he was. Yes, I do remember folks talking about his bench press but I remember Kenny Smith and other folks talking about how a ball does not weigh so much and he how he was a great natural scorer. Did I think Durant would be a 3x scoring champ already? No. But I distinctly recall defending his skinny frame to Jamstone and others who worried about his durability. IIRC, I said he struck me as the type to be skinny strong and durable a la Reggie Miller.
I wasn't talking about whether or not the worries about Durant's skinny frame were warranted (obviously they weren't), I was talking about the fact THERE WERE predraft worries about Durant's frame which is all that's relevant to whether or not Portland was stupid at the time for picking Oden.

[baseline bum]

I thought it was pretty obvious Durant was a transcendent talent in his year at Texas, but I would have still taken Oden and I'd be surprised if anything other than 30 of the 30 NBA GMs would have done the same. Oden was considered the best HS bigman since Kareem. He was like taking Drummond, adding two inches, and putting a legit motor inside.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

a legit motor and a brain that's bigger than a walnut :lol

[baseline bum]

After reading that article a couple of months ago I'm not sure Oden has much more than Drummond in the brain department tbh. Maybe less.

[baseline bum]

Besides, if someone can win MVP with the vocabulary and delivery of a nine year-old, exactly how much does brainpower really mean in the league?

[tlongII]

God I'm sick of these threads!

[baseline bum]

God I'm sick of these threads!

Which great talent you think your boys will pass over this time around?

[da_suns_fan]

Theres a great quote in that Robin Williams thriller "One Hour Photo":

"The things we fear most are the things that have already happened."

Thats why I think Portland might have it worse. Regardless of what was said at the draft, the fact is that they had the number one pick and they chose wrong.

AGAIN.

[da_suns_fan]

Theres a great quote in that Robin Williams thriller "One Hour Photo":

"The things we fear most are the things that have already happened."

Thats why I think Portland might have it worse. Regardless of what was said at the draft, the fact is that they had the number one pick and they chose wrong.

AGAIN.

[VBM]

You're not fooling anyone by pretending that in 2007, you believed Oden having one leg longer than the other was something that you wouldn't use more than a mid-late 1st rounder on. Please explain how having one leg longer than the other directly led to his knee problems.

Not saying that. I'm saying if I had the #1 pick in the draft, I'd be paranoid as hell about who I would draft. In fact that probably was a big reason Pritchard went with a big. Again, if the biggest knock on Durant was that he was too skinny, that just goes to show how little Portland felt about its strength and conditioning program. A 6'11" forward with the speed of a point guard and nearly limitless shooting range in a league that doesn't allow handchecks vs. a big man in a league that was becoming less reliant on them (especially in the west). Secondly, Portland had already gone through the talented big vs. talented guard thing with Bowie/Jordan. They should have just gone with the other side for shits and giggles.

[djohn2oo8]

Theres a great quote in that Robin Williams thriller "One Hour Photo":

"The things we fear most are the things that have already happened."

Thats why I think Portland might have it worse. Regardless of what was said at the draft, the fact is that they had the number one pick and they chose wrong.

AGAIN.
I really don't think it mattered who they took. Had Durant gone there he probably would have had a career ending injury.

[VBM]

I really don't think it mattered who they took. Had Durant gone there he probably would have had a career ending injury.

The question remains: why hasn't Portland's entire medical staff been axed?

[djohn2oo8]

The question remains: why hasn't Portland's entire medical staff been axed?
It's more about the curse than the staff. Bowie, Walton, Oden, Roy. Joel Pzrybilla fell in the shower and had to have surgery.

[JoeTait75]

Remember also, Oden was coming off the 2007 title game in which he basically shit all over a Florida frontcourt that included Joakim Noah, Al Horford and Marrise Speights.

IIRC Bill Simmons was the only national writer pimping Durant at #1.

[tesseractive]

a big man in a league that was becoming less reliant on them (especially in the west).
Is that because having a great big man wasn't important, though, or because there weren't enough great big men?


Secondly, Portland had already gone through the talented big vs. talented guard thing with Bowie/Jordan.
OK, but nobody argued that Olajuwon should have gone after Jordan. IIRC, the consensus at the time was that Oden was the best big man prospect since Duncan.

[VBM]

Is that because having a great big man wasn't important, though, or because there weren't enough great big men?

Having a "great" big man was a luxury, not a necessity. Portland was just so used to Shaq going apeshit on them year after year. When he got traded east, the need for a great big (versus a great guard/forward) diminished.


OK, but nobody argued that Olajuwon should have gone after Jordan. IIRC, the consensus at the time was that Oden was the best big man prospect since Duncan.

Sure, but bigs are very hit or miss (see Darko, Yao to an extent, Kwame. Dwight is probably the last big to be deemed a true success, and Deandre Jordan and Demarcus Cousins will be good, but are they franchise players? The era of big men leading their teams is dying. Also, the most highly regarded draft of recent times was 2003. LeBron, Melo and Wade. Sure Bosh was in the mix, but it was those perimeter guys who completely changed the trajectory of their teams. Durant, even if he wasn't seen as a LeBron talent, definitely had flashes of a Melo or Wade-type impact coming out of college.

[tlongII]

We got #6 and #11 this year and we're sure to get 2 quality players. We'll be back.

[Budkin]

Seattle because they made the right pick and then lost him and their entire team to another city.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Remember also, Oden was coming off the 2007 title game in which he basically shit all over a Florida frontcourt that included Joakim Noah, Al Horford and Marrise Speights.

IIRC Bill Simmons was the only national writer pimping Durant at #1.
Oden was by far the best individual player of the 2007 tournament. In addition to shitting all over Florida in the finals (the rest of his team laying an egg), he outplayed Georgetown and the Roy Hibbert + Jeff Green front court in the semis.

(sidenote: I think Speights came a year later, don't think he was on that team)

But yeah, people in this thread are acting like Simmons' opinion was the popular opinion.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Not saying that. I'm saying if I had the #1 pick in the draft, I'd be paranoid as hell about who I would draft. In fact that probably was a big reason Pritchard went with a big. Again, if the biggest knock on Durant was that he was too skinny, that just goes to show how little Portland felt about its strength and conditioning program. A 6'11" forward with the speed of a point guard and nearly limitless shooting range in a league that doesn't allow handchecks vs. a big man in a league that was becoming less reliant on them (especially in the west). Secondly, Portland had already gone through the talented big vs. talented guard thing with Bowie/Jordan. They should have just gone with the other side for shits and giggles.
"6'11" forward with the speed of a point guard" is a description I could use for countless players.

The biggest pre-draft knock you have on Oden is, "Teh leg is longer than teh other leg!" when I'm willing to bet you don't have the slightest idea of what negative effect that could have on his knees, or if it has any effect on his knees at all for that matter. Again, hindsight is 20/20, and it's stupid to pretend that you knew Oden over Durant would be Bowie over Jordan part 2.

[mavs>spurs]

Better to have a team than to not have one at all.

Also, 9 times out of 10 you go with the big man in a draft, they are harder to come by. Most teams would have picked Oden.

[Killakobe81]

Oden was by far the best individual player of the 2007 tournament. In addition to shitting all over Florida in the finals (the rest of his team laying an egg), he outplayed Georgetown and the Roy Hibbert + Jeff Green front court in the semis.

(sidenote: I think Speights came a year later, don't think he was on that team)

But yeah, people in this thread are acting like Simmons' opinion was the popular opinion.

No Simmons opinion went against, the grain and that was my point. Me and VBM are saying we are one of the few who felt Oden was good, but Durant had the potential to be special. I'm not shutting on the Blazers for following the best big man theory, as you say at least 28 GMs would do the same. I'm just giving myself props for saying I woulda took Durant. Oden to me seemed to be a poor man's Alonzo Mourning or that to me was his ceiling. I never saw David Robinson (as some projected) in his game. As for Durant I never saw Kobe or even Iceman I thought more Dirk 2.0. Never thought he would be this good this fast.

[skut_farkus]

Looking back at what we know now im sure they wouldnt of followed sandusky into the showers and the blazers wouldnt of picked oden. But at the time they both seemed like a good idea

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

No Simmons opinion went against, the grain and that was my point. Me and VBM are saying we are one of the few who felt Oden was good, but Durant had the potential to be special.
And I'm saying you're both lying to yourselves about what you really thought in 2007.

[Killakobe81]

And I'm saying you're both lying to yourselves about what you really thought in 2007.

And that is fine. But do I have a reputation here for lying? I admit when I am wrong. I never liked Oden in college. You and Taut say he shit on Florida's big men, yet he didn't win the title and was hurt his only year there. He was a nice physical specimen but I root for a team with Kareem and Shaq so maybe I'm spoiled.he never looked like either Ewing and David who were much better in college too. Alonzo was a warrior one of my favorite centers of that era. But to me Oden wasn't even as good as him. That is why I would of taken Durant. You don't believe me I don't give a.fuck ...not going to look up old posts on ESPN boards to win an argument with a stranger. I remembered the Simmons story cuz I agreed. You don't believe oh well

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I'm not saying you're deliberating lying. I'm saying you've convinced yourself, somewhat subconsciously, that you believed Durant over Oden was an easy, slam dunk, no-brainer decision in 2007. Some people were saying Durant over Oden, but I don't remember anyone saying that Durant over Oden was a no-brainer in the manner you're saying it now.

[Killakobe81]

Never said it was a no brainer. Simmons never said that either. I think Simmons, VBM and I were saying we had a strong hunch, feeling that Durant would be better. Oden was actually the safer, traditional choice. But there was something I didn't like a bad vibe ...while Durant gave me the opposite feeling. This was a millions of dollars decision. They took the safe choice. And Im far from infallible I thought Hibbert would be shitty and I once said out loud early in their careers I would rather have Alonzo over Shaq because he had a jumper and played harder. I was right that Duncan would be better than both ...

[Findog]

Never said it was a no brainer. Simmons never said that either. I think Simmons, VBM and I were saying we had a strong hunch, feeling that Durant would be better. Oden was actually the safer, traditional choice. But there was something I didn't like a bad vibe ...while Durant gave me the opposite feeling. This was a millions of dollars decision. They took the safe choice. And Im far from infallible I thought Hibbert would be shitty and I once said out loud early in their careers I would rather have Alonzo over Shaq because he had a jumper and played harder. I was right that Duncan would be better than both ...


Sorry but even the minority that said Durant over Oden was the right pick qualified it by saying that you couldn't go wrong either way. It was like choosing between a Mercedes and a Rolls Royce. In other words, making the wrong decision was still supposed to pay off handsomely. It ended up being a choice between a Maybach and a 1972 Ford Pinto on blocks.

[VBM]

but I don't remember anyone saying that Durant over Oden was a no-brainer in the manner you're saying it now.

then again, I did go to UT for law school from 05-08, so I was there for Durant's only year. Some might say I'm a bit biased.

[DMC]

Right now it's San Antonio and it's not even close.

[Axe Murderer]

Sorry but even the minority that said Durant over Oden was the right pick qualified it by saying that you couldn't go wrong either way. It was like choosing between a Mercedes and a Rolls Royce. In other words, making the wrong decision was still supposed to pay off handsomely. It ended up being a choice between a Maybach and a 1972 Ford Pinto on blocks.

Sup? Your life back to normal and stuff now?

[Latarian Milton]

portland definitely, the combo of durant & roy would've won ship years ago imho. oden was vaunted as highly as bill russell II preceding the draft but only turned out to be a sack of shit, the worst #1 draft selection since 02 tbh :cry