Is Hakeem Overrated?

[apalisoc_9]

I keep on seeing the guy in the 4-7 all time greats.. 2 Championships/three finals? Given that i was still a kid back in the day..

but can anyone tell me why alot of people have him 4-7?

[DMC]

You had to see him play. He was dominant, unshakeable.

[apalisoc_9]

You had to see him play. He was dominant, unshakeable.

I've watched a few recorded games of MJ. Is there anyway i can watch a whole game for any of his games back in the day? I've been browsing nonstop the last couple of hours without results..

[Venti Quattro]

If Hakeem is overrated, then what does it make of D-Rob? Just a scrub bible-thumper?

[DMC]

If Hakeem is overrated, then what does it make of D-Rob? Just a scrub bible-thumper?


DRob isn't listed in the top 10.

[Venti Quattro]

DRob isn't listed in the top 10.

Thank you for proving my point.

[Kidd K]

I keep on seeing the guy in the 4-7 all time greats.. 2 Championships/three finals? Given that i was still a kid back in the day..

but can anyone tell me why alot of people have him 4-7?

Because they're too stupid to know about the older great basketball players.

Sometimes the explanation for stupidity is just that they're stupid.


That said, Hakeem is probably around 9-10 anyway. But 4? Absolutely not even close. Even 7 is too high for him imo. But I could see the argument. . .but 4-6, just no.

[DMC]

Thank you for proving my point.
Not really sure you had one.

A top 10 all time vs a top 25 all time, are you saying that if Hakeem is overrated and should be top 15, David should be top 30?

What exactly is your point?

[Stalin]

if starting a franchise who would you pick? kobe or olaguwon

[DMC]

Since there's no one named olaguwon, I would take Kobe.

[slick'81]

yeah dude was freakishly talented one of a kind for sure

[Kidd K]

if starting a franchise who would you pick? kobe or olaguwon

Clearly Hakeem, and he's above Kobe on my GOAT list. But Kobe isn't anywhere near 4-7. He barely cracks the top 10 imo.

He has 5 rings, but his impact on the game isn't the same as the other top 10 guys. Kobe's 5 rings is the only reason he's even on mine (well, that and too many people would cry if I didn't include him).

[Budkin]

Definitely one of the best centers to ever play the game. He was simply unstoppable.

[baseline bum]

* Olajuwon had ridiculous moves on the low block. Duncan and McHale are the only players I have ever seen with comparable (but probably not quite as good) footwork.
* He had a baseline fadeaway that was unguardable. It was similar to the move Jordan used from 96-98.
* He could face up and put the ball on the floor, making him deadly in the high post. He could hit a 15 footer too.
* A shot-blocking machine. The only other shotblocker in his class all-time is David Robinson.
* Also had comparable footspeed to David Robinson.
* He was legendary in the clutch. He blocked a shot at the buzzer in game 6 of the 94 Finals that would have clinched the championship for the Knicks. Starks was on fire from the 3 point line that game and there's a great chance that shot drops and they win the title if not for the block. Olajuwon also got the tip-in to complete an 18 point comeback to win game 1 of the 95 Finals. Those are the two really big clutch plays that come to mind right off hand, but I know there were many more.
* Olajuwon was also a pretty strong rebounder. A little more than 11 a game in his prime years from 84 to 97.

Olajuwon had no weakness in his game. The only bad things you could say about him are

(1) He was a hot-head really early in his career; in the 86 WCF Mitch Kupchack got him to go nuts and get ejected for starting a fight from a strategic elbow. He had another playoff game earlier that year when he was baited into an ejection also.

(2) When he reached TOSB-age he pulled a Ewing and still wanted to be top dog, at the expense of Pippen's game for instance. Point (1) is pretty minor since it was really only a problem the first couple of years of his career. Point (2) is a bit worse, since I seem to remember it costing them Sam Cassell. Then again, at the time Olajuwon was probably right to want things running through him at the tail end of his prime while Cassell didn't deliver at all in his last playoffs. He was definitely in the wrong wanting constant isos the year Pippen was there though.

I don't think you can make a case for him above Jordan, Magic, Bird, or Kareem, but after that, he stacks up well in comparison to anyone else.

[baseline bum]

There is no way this can be overrated

uBrEsNS9zKg

[lefty]

Best Center ever imo

[benefactor]

As shown by the video...dude could also handle and pass the ball like a guard. He was the perfect big man.

[slick'81]

if u wanted to create the perfect center akeem would be pretty close

[mavs>spurs]

hakeem and overrated cannot be put together in the same sentence in the english language, tbh.

what are they teaching you lil mf'ers in english class?

[SamoanTD]

His timing on those blocks is fucking crazy respect.

[JMarkJohns]

In 1988-89 Hakeem averaged 24.3 ppg, 14 rpg, 2.9 apg, 4.6 bpg, 2.1 spg.

I would argue this amazing year isn't even in his top-3 seasons.

Never seen low-post basketball played better.

[tesseractive]

There is no way this can be overrated

uBrEsNS9zKg

Thanks for posting that. That's one of the sickest things I've ever seen.

[lefty]

Hakeem went hillbilie ape crap on the 86 Lakers
Not too bad vs Boston in the Finals either


A one man wrecking crew

[DMC]

Most of his blocks were goaltends, but he was amazing nonetheless.

[Killakobe81]

Best center I got to see at his "peak" or "prime" ...when I started watching ball Kareem was still very good and an all-star but Hakeem was a beast. He had as series aginst the Sonics in his prime that was one of the best two-way (offense/defense) series I have ever seen. He scored at will, rebounded like crazy and blocked shots. Hakeem was the best big man I have seen from rookie to TOSB.Duncan is second, Shaq third.

Plus how many centers could of dominated or at least outplayed 3 other HOF in their prime (Shaq was young but at his athletic peak) ceners in back2back championship seasons?

[baseline bum]

He had as series aginst the Sonics in his prime that was one of the best two-way (offense/defense) series I have ever seen. He scored at will, rebounded like crazy and blocked shots.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198705140SEA.html

I used to have a copy of this game too, but lost it. :depressed

[Killakobe81]

In 1987 in a game 7 on the road in Seattle ... one of the loudest arenas at the time. Against a a very good (not great) Sonics team. Hakeem put up:

49 points
25 rebounds
6 blocks
2 steals
2 assists

Only knock on Hakeem is he did kinda had a rep as a a black hole and self-absorbed, especially on the weker squads he wa son. If you watch his NBA films sports doc, many of the labels on Kobe in the post Shaq, pre second PJax applied to Hakeem. But just like Kobe he was a straight baller. Every move was exquisite footwork.

Side note: I remember an interview when he was in his prime where he admitted he broke off his engagement with his then fiance ...because she was too short, and he wanted his sons to be pro ball players!! Dont know if that was an excuse, but he married someone else later. And his daughter (at least) did play major college ball.

[Killakobe81]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198705140SEA.html

I used to have a copy of this game too, but lost it. :depressed

Was just peeking at BR for the splits myself. Just look at that game 7 ...:toast :wow

[Killakobe81]

And I may be wrong, because Im not a huge stat guy but arent his assist numbers a little low?

Duncan, Kareem and even Shaq just felt like they would get more than 2-3 assists but again Im not a stat guy.

His steal numbers are also ridiculous too ...

[JMarkJohns]

And I may be wrong, because Im not a huige stat guy but arent his assist numbers a little low?

Duncan, Kareem and even Shaq just felt like they would get more than 2-3 assists but again Im not a stat guy.

His steal numbers are also ridiculous too ...

I think we all remember how his inside-out led to so many open threes, but there was probably a lot of around-the-horn passing to further rotate collapsed defenses, so it would make sense most of his passes weren't actual assists, but still great passes nonetheless.

I was a bit taken aback as well, figuring his prime would be at least 4 and his peak probably around 5. His passing was far better, on-point, and deadly than his assist numbers indicate. He had great recognition from the block and the elbow.

[Killakobe81]

I also feel Worthy and HAkeem had two best quick baseline spin moves on the low block. Worthy was so quick with his. But Hakeem's was even better. Becaus if you watch the clip Bum posted, Hakeem's center of gravity was so low he would quick spin like Worthy then explode for a dunk or layup. But if the second big recovered he gave that show where he faked the ball one way and shot a smooth floater the other. Filthy stuff.

[baseline bum]

First 4 minutes of 2OT of that ridiculous 49/25 game 6

laZo4P-fiJ8

[Sean Cagney]

OVERRATED? HELL NO............. HELL NO. I watched him in his prime, he was sick.

[Killakobe81]

But I dont think he is top 5 all-time, either. Top 5 out of guys I SAW play. But I would say he is probably top 10 all-time.

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Magic

4. Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Bird and Kobe all have legit claims for my 4 spot.

Not counting guys I never saw.

[JMarkJohns]

I can't imagine 1-7, but 8-10 seems pretty reasonable. I can't foresee my list not having him top-10, and I might even be able to justify 6-7 spots, but not off the top of my head.

All I know is he's my starting center if I'm starting a team. For the skill, height, strength of others, few had his quickness, and, I'd argue, none had his combination of athleticism, skill and timing.

[baseline bum]

These are my top 4:

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Bird
4. Abdul-Jabbar

5-7 I'd have Shaq, Olajuwon, and Duncan, though I'm not sure how I'd rank those 3.

[baseline bum]

These are my top 4:

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Bird
4. Abdul-Jabbar

5-7 I'd have Shaq, Olajuwon, and Duncan, though I'm not sure how I'd rank those 3.

[fevertrees]

I guarantee Hakeem hates music like that so why disrespect him and put that crap music in a tribute video to him?

[baseline bum]

Seriously, if you ever see game 2 of the 95 WCF on NBATV or ESPN Classic, it's can't miss stuff and probably the greatest game of Olajuwon's career (and maybe the most bitter loss in Spurs history :depressed).

[Stalin]

olaguown comletely shits over today's centers, tbh

:lol bitch titties
:lol prima donna dwight

[baseline bum]

Mourning or Ewing completely shit over today's centers. Olajuwon shit all over centers back when they were good tbh.

[Venti Quattro]

When Hakeem had the dream shake on, you knew your team was going to be fucked in the ass.

[baseline bum]

I think we all remember how his inside-out led to so many open threes, but there was probably a lot of around-the-horn passing to further rotate collapsed defenses, so it would make sense most of his passes weren't actual assists, but still great passes nonetheless.


Yeah, the Rockets were great moving the ball around the three point line to find the open man (especially the 94 team). The only other team I have seen that moved the ball around the 3 point line nearly as well to get open looks off doubles in the post was the 99 Spurs. Just lots of simple chest passes until they found the man who couldn't be rotated to.

[Koolaid_Man]

But I dont think he is top 5 all-time, either. Top 5 out of guys I SAW play. But I would say he is probably top 10 all-time.

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Magic

4. Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Bird and Kobe all have legit claims for my 4 spot.

Not counting guys I never saw.


:lol hey man....Spur fan will still like you..no need to get carried and put Timmy at #4...not even in a hypothetical toss-up...it's pretty ridiculous...the only reason any knows of Duncan's name is because Hakeem retired...had Duncan faced a prime Hakeem we wouldn't know who Duncan was...:lol don't get carried away...

and for the record..MJ's is on record as saying that his all-time team is:

Magic
Bird
Hakeem
MJ
Kobe (he felt compelled to add Pippen since Pippen kisses his ass all day) :lol

[Koolaid_Man]

So let's keep this in context...the top 5 basketball players ever assembled in the history of the world in a hypo would be the following team..no if's, and's, or but's about it:

Magic - SF
MJ - SG
Kareem - C
Hakeem - PF
Kobe - PG

Unstoppable line-up..No Spur player could ever make that team or the second team which would be:

Bird - SF
Wilt - C
Shaq - PF
Reggie Miller - SG
Isiah Thomas - PG

If there was a third team Duncan could possible crack it...if you teamed him up with :


Malone - PF
Duncan - C
Garnett - SF
Lebron - SG
Wade - PG

[TDMVPDPOY]

his certainly overrated

he had 2 good seasons where he dominated, but everyone thinks his been playin like that all his career....that lies the problem right there....

[JMarkJohns]

his certainly overrated

he had 2 good seasons where he dominated, but everyone thinks his been playin like that all his career....that lies the problem right there....

He dominated his whole career, save the last five years. Those "two" (actually four) years he just dominated at an entirely different level. He'd finally put it all together, adding efficiency to effectiveness.

[apalisoc_9]

Does anyone have a copy of his peak games? Or maybe even a link...I've watched Magic, Bird and MJ..Unfortuanltey none of those were against hakeem

[baseline bum]

Youtube used to have a lot of the 1994 and 1995 playoff games, but the NBA has since cracked down on them.

[Indazone]

First of all - Blasphemy!!

That being said, Hakeem was the better all around athlete with moves of a point guard in a Center's body. He could score all over the court and was a defensive shotblocker bar non.

Kareem's skyhook was unstoppable but there is no way he was the complete player that Hakeem was. Their stats were similar over a career and both were extremely successful at what they did.

http://slumz.boxden.com/f16/whos-better-hakeem-vs-kareem-1764994/

[djohn2oo8]

Does anyone have a copy of his peak games? Or maybe even a link...I've watched Magic, Bird and MJ..Unfortuanltey none of those were against hakeem
BYFV06e2blE

xQe0fFakJr0

kMilINcdjSM

AzjjEja3d-Q

PXb7dn7yKWk

95g8Qha9t0M

[apalisoc_9]

I've watched all of these Vids. I was talking about complete games..

[djohn2oo8]

I've watched all of these Vids. I was talking about complete games..
Yea like baseline said it looks as if they're aren't very many if any still on youtube.

[apalisoc_9]

Thanks..

[LkrFan]

if starting a franchise who would you pick? kobe or olaguwon

WTF Kobe has to do with this thread? :lol

#OBSESSED

[LkrFan]

Real talk: if the Dream is overrated, then so are the Spurs' world famous twin towers. In their primes, Dream runs circles around both of them. And if all 3 were in the NBA draft, and I were to start a team, I'd pick Dream every time. Dude was a monster and deserves more respect on this board tbh. In a two year span, he destroyed Robinson, Ewing, and swept Shaq in rout to a back to back. What other center can say the same shit? Overrated? Pffft!

[mavs>spurs]

^Hakeem > Duncan > Kobe, ha ha

[Koolaid_Man]

^Hakeem > Duncan > Kobe, ha ha



Today's a training day, Tyson. Kool will show you around, give you a taste of the business. I got 38 new bitches wanting to blow me, 63 in I've fucked this year already, another 250 on the log I can't clear. I supervise five female pimps. That's five different personalities. Five sets of problems, 5 Boxes of tampons I gotta buy every month. You can be number six if you act now. But I ain't holding no hands, okay? I ain't baby-sitting. You got today and today only to show me who and what you're made of. You don't like pussy, get the fuck out of my face. Go get you a nice, pussy desk job, chasing bad checks or something, you hear me?

[baseline bum]

Is there a way to quarantine Koolaid to troll threads so that he can't interrupt conversations between adults?

[Koolaid_Man]

Is there a way to quarantine Koolaid to troll threads so that he can't interrupt conversations between adults?


no :lol

[Calispursfan11]

He's pushing 50 so I'd say he's currently no longer a top 50 players in the NBA. If you're taking his current age and deterioated joints into account, he's definitely overrated.

[Calispursfan11]

He's pushing 50 so I'd say he's currently no longer a top 50 player in the NBA. If you're taking his current age and deteriorated joints into account, he's definitely overrated.

[Latarian Milton]

2<4 but winning the dumbest US city 2 NBA championships was more of a achievement then winning 4 for san antonio or 5 for LA tbh. the rockets never came close w/o dream the following decade despite how "stacked" and overhyped they were

[Capt Bringdown]

If anything, Hakeem is under-rated.

[duhoh]

If anything, Hakeem is under-rated.

troof.

a finesse center that crapped on power centers. that's probably never going to be replicated again at the level he was playing.

[baseline bum]

Olajuwon was a power center in addition to being a finesse center.

[AussieFanKurt]

n 1987, Hakeem Olajuwon had 38 points, 17 rebounds, 12 blocks, 7 steals, and 6 assists

Holy fuck

[LkrFan]

n 1987, Hakeem Olajuwon had 38 points, 17 rebounds, 12 blocks, 7 steals, and 6 assists

Holy fuck

He even had a quadruple double:

buE8CpfZI0M&feature=youtube_gdata_player

^ Shitty highlight, but proof of his badassness.

[tlongII]

Where is Wilt on all your lists? :lol Hakeem was great, but Wilt is probably the 2nd best player ever after MJ.

[dunkman]

There is reason no one lambasted the Rockets for picking Hakeem in front of MJ. They are comparable players. Two championships, back-to-back, dominating vs Ewing, D Robinson and Shaq, eliminating the showtime Lakers, all time leader in blocks, very high all-time rebounder, scorer and in steals too which is unusual for a bigman.

Also, he always played better in the playoffs than in RS, he was clutch too.

[JMarkJohns]

Where is Wilt on all your lists? :lol Hakeem was great, but Wilt is probably the 2nd best player ever after MJ.

I have him top-5, despite never seeing it. My main issues with he and Russell, and why I favor Hakeem personally, is that their competition was nearly as deep, strong, or as competitive.

Hakeem in that era dominates similar to Wilt. It's unfair to do, so I don't do it often.

That said, Wilt's numbers and Russell's Titles, and I have both ahead of Hakeem, but I'd personally take Olajuwon before either if creating a team.

I think my top-10 is:

Jordan
Magic
Bird
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Robertson
Hakeem
Shaq
Kobe

Truth be told, there's little conviction behind the list after Hakeem, as I haven't seen half the players play personally, and truly believe Hakeem the better, most complete center behind Kareem.

[baseline bum]

Could you imagine Wilt playing in today's NBA? ESPN and talk radio would crucify the guy for his selfishness and stat-padding. Look at how they go off on Kobe and he's not even on the same planet as Wilt for selfish play.

[Ditty]

Hakeem is the greatest big man of all time imo

[FkLA]

But I dont think he is top 5 all-time, either. Top 5 out of guys I SAW play. But I would say he is probably top 10 all-time.

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Magic

4. Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Bird and Kobe all have legit claims for my 4 spot.

Not counting guys I never saw.

Always putting Kobe where he doesnt belong. Nobody in their right mind would consider Kobe at 4. Excluding old timers:

MJ
KAJ
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
Dream
Kobe

Hasnt the biggest knock on Olajuwon always been the fact that he had a relatively short prime? Or is that BS??

[djohn2oo8]

Always putting Kobe where he doesnt belong. Nobody in their right mind would consider Kobe at 4. Excluding old timers:

MJ
KAJ
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
Dream
Kobe

Hasnt the biggest knock on Olajuwon always been the fact that he had a relatively short prime? Or is that BS??
BS. Hakeem had consistently posted MVP type numbers throughout his career, then had a 4 year period where he took it to another level.

[Killakobe81]

Always putting Kobe where he doesnt belong. Nobody in their right mind would consider Kobe at 4. Excluding old timers:

MJ
KAJ
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
Dream
Kobe

Hasnt the biggest knock on Olajuwon always been the fact that he had a relatively short prime? Or is that BS??

There are plenty that can knock Duncan and Bird for the 4 spot as well. LIke someone else posted, after the top 3, you could make a strong case for any of those guys. You dont like Kobe, we get that. You are the Spur version of Kool with his hate on Duncan. But most on here even if they have Kobe at the bottom of that list agree that it's pretty close. Kobe has a strong case for 4 so does Shaq, Duncan and Bird. You dont agree, that is why it's a NBA forum, state your case. I wont argue for Kobe here because nothing has changed since he won #5 he had two up and down regular season and playoffs since then. Not enough to move him up or down. Thought about moving up timmy but he shit the bed against OKC ...shit happens.

[Killakobe81]

My revised list:

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4a. Bird
4b. Kobe
4c. Duncan
4d. Shaq
4e. Hakeem
5. Lebron (if he closes the deal I dont put ringless players in ANY top 10 not even Barry Sanders)

Normally when players are close I use rings as the tie breaker, but wil give Bird the nod for now.
But when ranking players i look at:

1. Rings
2. Significant contributions to mutliple titles
3. Outstanding peak years where they were considered the best at their respective position
4. Being a TRUE "star" and not a "comet" ...meaning being a legit star for multiple seasons and not a flash in the pan like TMAC, Penny, Antione Walker or Derick Coleman
5. Last would be stats. Advanced traditional doesnt really matter. I think you use them to validate what you see. For example, I remember Hakeem going nuclear in the playofffs against the sonics in Game 7 that is why I brought it up. Didnt recall the numbers sol I looked them up. But it just confirmed that Hakeem was a bad man. I remember Kobe's performances against Sacto and the Spurs in the playoffs the OT against the Pacers in the Finals. i look up those boxscores and they confirm what I remember.

[FkLA]

Why do Kobe fanboys never analyze rings/contribution? He won them with loaded teams and for an organization that always wins. Winning rings in San Antonio/Houston is much more difficult than in LA. Houston hasnt sniffed a title since Hakeem retired, SA will be in the same boat post-Duncan. Lakers will be back in contention 5-10 yrs after Kobe. Then you add the fact that he was a second banana for the first three and that when he had limited squads he led his teams to exactly the same results guys like Tmac/VC/AI led their limited teams to, and its just laughable to have him ahead of the guys on that list. Hes last on that list anything else is retarded bruh.

[ambchang]

Slightly. Hakeem was absolutely unstoppable given the right team (entire offense runs through him, great shooter opening up the lane for him), but he was not a great passer (good, but not Walton, or even Shaq or Duncan good), and requires a lot of space in the low post to operate.

On defense, he was arguably one of the best of all time in terms of individual defense or even help defense. But his team defense wasn't as good as the numbers indicate.

He is top 10, without question, mainly because he was allowed to showcase his skills with the right team. If he was surrounded by crap teammates his whole career, he would have been another Robinson.

[Killakobe81]

Why do Kobe fanboys never analyze rings/contribution? He won them with loaded teams and for an organization that always wins. Winning rings in San Antonio/Houston is much more difficult than in LA. Houston hasnt sniffed a title since Hakeem retired, SA will be in the same boat post-Duncan. Lakers will be back in contention 5-10 yrs after Kobe. Then you add the fact that he was a second banana for the first three and that when he had limited squads he led his teams to exactly the same results guys like Tmac/VC/AI led their limited teams to, and its just laughable to have him ahead of the guys on that list. Hes last on that list anything else is retarded bruh.

Dream has 2 rings and how are his contributions any different when it is even more difficult (historically) for a perimeter player to lead a team to a title? Kobe did build off Shaq, no one denies that. But he was more of a contibutor than Wade is right now. Bird had 2 HOF frontliners plus another in the backcourt. Sure Tim and Hakeem pop the cherry for their cities and that WAS impressive but in the grand shceme legacy wise...Kobe's career and accomplishments rivals Duncan and Shaq's and pretty much eclipses everyone else after MJ, Kareem and Magic.

[ambchang]

Killakobe, stop drinking the Lakers koolaid.

Kobe's last two championship were far and away the most stacked during their respective years. In fact, the Lakers has been the most stacked team since 08, until the three amigos joined forces two summers ago, but even then, the Lakers have by far the best front court.

The first two (00 and 01), it was all Shaq, you can sort of make a case Kobe contributed some in 02, but like every sane person knows, TMac or Carter would have won those championships next to Shaq from 00 to 02. While TMac and Carter were no doubt fantastic players in their own right, no one in their right minds would put them in the top 10, or even top 30 of all time.

Kobe's accomplishments looks great on paper strictly because of his 5 titles, but when you realized how much help he had for those titles, he moves him down a notch. Sort of like how Willis Reed won those two titles in the 70s.

[Killakobe81]

Killakobe, stop drinking the Lakers koolaid.

Kobe's last two championship were far and away the most stacked during their respective years. In fact, the Lakers has been the most stacked team since 08, until the three amigos joined forces two summers ago, but even then, the Lakers have by far the best front court.

The first two (00 and 01), it was all Shaq, you can sort of make a case Kobe contributed some in 02, but like every sane person knows, TMac or Carter would have won those championships next to Shaq from 00 to 02. While TMac and Carter were no doubt fantastic players in their own right, no one in their right minds would put them in the top 10, or even top 30 of all time.

Kobe's accomplishments looks great on paper strictly because of his 5 titles, but when you realized how much help he had for those titles, he moves him down a notch. Sort of like how Willis Reed won those two titles in the 70s.

You sometimes make good solid arguments, but when you make asinine comments like that, especially after Kobe did this:

In 2000
1. Kobe scored 28 and led us to a OT win in Game 3 of the finals after shaq fouled out
2. the last 2 games vs. Portland in a epic WCF, Kobe had 33 and 6 asists and 25 7and 11 rebounds in Game 7

2001
1. In the second round versus a loaded Sacramento team Kobe closed out that series with: 48 and 16/36 and 7 both on the road in one of the loudest arenas.
2. Against a Tim/Pop/David and recent rafter anointee Bruce Bowen squad ... Kobe put up 45 and 10 on the road in SAS (another loud arena) and followed that with 28, 7 and 6 ... 36 and 8 and 24 and 11.
3. In the Finals: (after a horrible game one which contrbuted to our only playoff loss) Kobe had 31 and 8, 32 and 6, 19 10 and 9 and 26 12 and 6 in the closeout game.

Sure Shaq did ALL of the work ... :bang :wakeup :lmao
Look we had some good debates on Duncan and Kobe in the past. But if you continue to write such uninformed crap I cant take you seriously. When you take your Kobe bias out we can continue, until then refer to our previous debate.

[Killakobe81]

Killakobe, stop drinking the Lakers koolaid.

Kobe's last two championship were far and away the most stacked during their respective years. In fact, the Lakers has been the most stacked team since 08, until the three amigos joined forces two summers ago, but even then, the Lakers have by far the best front court.

The first two (00 and 01), it was all Shaq, you can sort of make a case Kobe contributed some in 02, but like every sane person knows, TMac or Carter would have won those championships next to Shaq from 00 to 02. While TMac and Carter were no doubt fantastic players in their own right, no one in their right minds would put them in the top 10, or even top 30 of all time.

Kobe's accomplishments looks great on paper strictly because of his 5 titles, but when you realized how much help he had for those titles, he moves him down a notch. Sort of like how Willis Reed won those two titles in the 70s.

LOL maybe. But 2001 Lakers would of swept that team. Maybe they (2009-2010) Lakers beat last year's Mavs, the 2007 Spurs and Wade's Heat but the last 2 Laker title teams were NOT stacked like the 2008 Celtics 2005 Spurs or even the Pistons of 2004.

You take away Kobe, Phil and Fisher and that is a useless group of players without their leadership. Pau is a high skill player but would of never won shit without their guidance. In fact, Pau had to be carried on his spanish national teams more times than not. Not hating but it's a fact. Ask the euro fans on here. Manu and Scola owned his ass in international play and those countries are HUGE rivals in bball and soccer.

[LkrFan]

You sometimes make good solid arguments, but when you make asinine comments like that, especially after Kobe did this:

In 2000
1. Kobe scored 28 and led us to a OT win in Game 3 of the finals after shaq fouled out
2. the last 2 games vs. Portland in a epic WCF, Kobe had 33 and 6 asists and 25 7and 11 rebounds in Game 7

2001
1. In the second round versus a loaded Sacramento team Kobe closed out that series with: 48 and 16/36 and 7 both on the road in one of the loudest arenas.
2. Against a Tim/Pop/David and recent rafter anointee Bruce Bowen squad ... Kobe put up 45 and 10 on the road in SAS (another loud arena) and followed that with 28, 7 and 6 ... 36 and 8 and 24 and 11.
3. In the Finals: (after a horrible game one which contrbuted to our only playoff loss) Kobe had 31 and 8, 32 and 6, 19 10 and 9 and 26 12 and 6 in the closeout game.

Sure Shaq did ALL of the work ... :bang :wakeup :lmao
Look we had some good debates on Duncan and Kobe in the past. But if you continue to write such uninformed crap I cant take you seriously. When you take your Kobe bias out we can continue, until then refer to our previous debate.
Killa with da goods. Props son. :toast

[Ice009]

You sometimes make good solid arguments, but when you make asinine comments like that, especially after Kobe did this:

In 2000
1. Kobe scored 28 and led us to a OT win in Game 3 of the finals after shaq fouled out
2. the last 2 games vs. Portland in a epic WCF, Kobe had 33 and 6 asists and 25 7and 11 rebounds in Game 7

2001
1. In the second round versus a loaded Sacramento team Kobe closed out that series with: 48 and 16/36 and 7 both on the road in one of the loudest arenas.
2. Against a Tim/Pop/David and recent rafter anointee Bruce Bowen squad ... Kobe put up 45 and 10 on the road in SAS (another loud arena) and followed that with 28, 7 and 6 ... 36 and 8 and 24 and 11.
3. In the Finals: (after a horrible game one which contrbuted to our only playoff loss) Kobe had 31 and 8, 32 and 6, 19 10 and 9 and 26 12 and 6 in the closeout game.


Bruce Bowen wasn't on the Spurs in 2001. Those Kobe games are the reason the Spurs went out and got him.

Derek Anderson was the starting 2 guard. Derek separated his shoulder in round 2 and missed the first two games of the series. He played in games 3 and 4 but was ineffective scoring 2 points for the whole series. I think Antonio Daniels was guarding Kobe quite a bit in the series. We had no one that could guard him at all.

That Lakers team was killer and we got totally rolled (It's one of the only Lakers teams I give credit to in this era for being great), but you went to the trouble of getting his stats and it seems like you didn't even watch the series? I didn't have access to watch it, but still recall quite a bit of it. If we had a healthy Derek Anderson and Bruce Bowen then that series may have been the mega series it was billed to be. Spurs had no one to guard Kobe except a short average defender in Antonio Daniels. Any elite scorer could have lit up our guards that season.

Kobe did contribute quite a lot though as the Spurs lost both those first two games at home which were close. Without Kobe's huge games they may not have even won those first two games. I thought the Spurs did a good job on Shaq, but that gave Kobe space and he killed us. I don't know if we would have done any better, may have still gotten rolled, but I would have liked to have seen that series if DA was fully healthy from game 1 onwards.

Bottom line to me is that Kobe did have quite a few monster games, but overall Shaq was clearly the better player who drew more of the defensive attention. That gave Kobe more room to do his thing when the other team had to have it's primary focus on stopping Shaq. Spurs did a great job on Shaq numerous times in those early playoff series, but that also allowed Kobe just a little bit more room, and a player as lethal as him took advantage of it.

I really don't know if Tmac or VC would have been able to do the same, they very well could have, but it'd just be a guess.

[dbreiden83080]

Would have loved to see Prime Duncan go at it with him in a series.. 2003 Timmy versus 94 Hakeem..

But no he was incredible..

Abused Robinson in the playoffs, Beat Ewing in the finals and Shaq...

[tlongII]

Wilt would dominate in any era. He was that good.

[Killakobe81]

Bruce Bowen wasn't on the Spurs in 2001. Those Kobe games are the reason the Spurs went out and got him.

Derek Anderson was the starting 2 guard. Derek separated his shoulder in round 2 and missed the first two games of the series. He played in games 3 and 4 but was ineffective scoring 2 points for the whole series. I think Antonio Daniels was guarding Kobe quite a bit in the series. We had no one that could guard him at all.

That Lakers team was killer and we got totally rolled (It's one of the only Lakers teams I give credit to in this era for being great), but you went to the trouble of getting his stats and it seems like you didn't even watch the series? I didn't have access to watch it, but still recall quite a bit of it. If we had a healthy Derek Anderson and Bruce Bowen then that series may have been the mega series it was billed to be. Spurs had no one to guard Kobe except a short average defender in Antonio Daniels. Any elite scorer could have lit up our guards that season.

Kobe did contribute quite a lot though as the Spurs lost both those first two games at home which were close. Without Kobe's huge games they may not have even won those first two games. I thought the Spurs did a good job on Shaq, but that gave Kobe space and he killed us. I don't know if we would have done any better, may have still gotten rolled, but I would have liked to have seen that series if DA was fully healthy from game 1 onwards.

Bottom line to me is that Kobe did have quite a few monster games, but overall Shaq was clearly the better player who drew more of the defensive attention. That gave Kobe more room to do his thing when the other team had to have it's primary focus on stopping Shaq. Spurs did a great job on Shaq numerous times in those early playoff series, but that also allowed Kobe just a little bit more room, and a player as lethal as him took advantage of it.

I really don't know if Tmac or VC would have been able to do the same, they very well could have, but it'd just be a guess.

my bad on Bruce Bowen ... And you are right Shaq drew attention from Kobe and I'm pretty sure Kobe did some of the same for Shaq. Shaq was the more dominant player I never disputed that. Lol tmac, rofl Vc ... Shaq couldn't win with prime Penny and barely won with Wade playing at a level he has never reached since. He couldn't win with Nash or LeBron either. Give Kobe his due period. He won with Pau. Very skilled but not as good as any of those guys.

[Killakobe81]

And even more importantly praise to Hakeem who won with past their primes Otis Thorpe and Drexler as his wingmen ... That first title wasn't ALL Hakeem because no one wins without help but he had some of the least ... One of the few champions that won a title without another HOF caliber #2

[dbreiden83080]

Wilt would dominate in any era. He was that good.

True..

[Blake]

* A shot-blocking machine. The only other shotblocker in his class all-time is David Robinson.

Duncan is right there as well.

[baseline bum]

Duncan is right there as well.

LOL, not even close. Duncan has never had 3 blocks a game for a season, while Robinson and Olajuwon averaged that for their respective careers.

[dbreiden83080]

LOL, not even close. Duncan has never had 3 blocks a game for a season, while Robinson and Olajuwon averaged that for their respective careers.

That's what happens when in the 80's and 90's the refs actually let them play.. You blow on guys that come to the rim these days and it's a flagrant..

[baseline bum]

That, and having a vertical helps too.

[dbreiden83080]

That, and having a vertical helps too.

Duncan does have the blocks record for the finals..


2003..

[Blake]

Duncan does have the blocks record for the finals..


2003..

Duncan and Robinson also have the exact same blocks per playoff game average at 2.56.

Both better averages in the playoffs than anyone else of note not named Hakeem.

[ambchang]

You sometimes make good solid arguments, but when you make asinine comments like that, especially after Kobe did this:

In 2000
1. Kobe scored 28 and led us to a OT win in Game 3 of the finals after shaq fouled out
2. the last 2 games vs. Portland in a epic WCF, Kobe had 33 and 6 asists and 25 7and 11 rebounds in Game 7

He had three good games out of 23?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealsh01/gamelog/2000/

Shaq had 5 games over 40 points. Using the Kobe benchmark of 33 points? Shaq had 11 games of 33 points or more. ELEVEN.

11 rebounds is the high mark for Kobe? Shaq had 21 out of 23 games of 11 rebounds or more. But Shaq is a center, so this is more or less a moot point.

As for the assists, Kobe is guard, and had 7 assists 3 times in the 00 playoffs. Shaq had one game of 7 assists, and one game of 6 assists.

2000 was no contest, Shaq was THE Lakers.


2001
1. In the second round versus a loaded Sacramento team Kobe closed out that series with: 48 and 16/36 and 7 both on the road in one of the loudest arenas.
2. Against a Tim/Pop/David and recent rafter anointee Bruce Bowen squad ... Kobe put up 45 and 10 on the road in SAS (another loud arena) and followed that with 28, 7 and 6 ... 36 and 8 and 24 and 11.
3. In the Finals: (after a horrible game one which contrbuted to our only playoff loss) Kobe had 31 and 8, 32 and 6, 19 10 and 9 and 26 12 and 6 in the closeout game.

Kobe was a lot better in 2001, we all know that, but Shaq was the center of the entire Lakers.

Shaq averaged only 1 more point than Kobe, but the entire reason is because teams were double / triple teaming Shaq. Could the Lakers go 15-1 in the playoffs without Kobe? Of course not, but the Lakers could easily win the championship that year with any all-star caliber player in place of Kobe. The Lakers couldn't win squat without Shaq that year.

I am not even going to go into how dominant Shaq was on the boards that year in the playoffs, it was sick.


Sure Shaq did ALL of the work ... :bang :wakeup :lmao
Look we had some good debates on Duncan and Kobe in the past. But if you continue to write such uninformed crap I cant take you seriously. When you take your Kobe bias out we can continue, until then refer to our previous debate.

2000 was pretty much locked, it was all Shaq. I can stand some debate on 2001. I am sure you watched that impressive playoff run by the Lakers, and anyone who watched it knew the Lakers were Shaq. Teams gear up for Shaq, that's why stiffs like Mengke Bateer had a job. That's why large, immobile or otherwise skillless bigmen were in demand. No team looked for a Kobe stopper, every team looked for a Shaq stopper, and the only ones they could find were another body with 6 fouls, and yet Shaq ran through them and dominated the playoffs.

[Killakobe81]

He had three good games out of 23?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealsh01/gamelog/2000/

Shaq had 5 games over 40 points. Using the Kobe benchmark of 33 points? Shaq had 11 games of 33 points or more. ELEVEN.

11 rebounds is the high mark for Kobe? Shaq had 21 out of 23 games of 11 rebounds or more. But Shaq is a center, so this is more or less a moot point.

As for the assists, Kobe is guard, and had 7 assists 3 times in the 00 playoffs. Shaq had one game of 7 assists, and one game of 6 assists.

2000 was no contest, Shaq was THE Lakers.



Kobe was a lot better in 2001, we all know that, but Shaq was the center of the entire Lakers.

Shaq averaged only 1 more point than Kobe, but the entire reason is because teams were double / triple teaming Shaq. Could the Lakers go 15-1 in the playoffs without Kobe? Of course not, but the Lakers could easily win the championship that year with any all-star caliber player in place of Kobe. The Lakers couldn't win squat without Shaq that year.

I am not even going to go into how dominant Shaq was on the boards that year in the playoffs, it was sick.



2000 was pretty much locked, it was all Shaq. I can stand some debate on 2001. I am sure you watched that impressive playoff run by the Lakers, and anyone who watched it knew the Lakers were Shaq. Teams gear up for Shaq, that's why stiffs like Mengke Bateer had a job. That's why large, immobile or otherwise skillless bigmen were in demand. No team looked for a Kobe stopper, every team looked for a Shaq stopper, and the only ones they could find were another body with 6 fouls, and yet Shaq ran through them and dominated the playoffs.

Already conceded that it was MOSTLY Shaq. Never did I say it was all Kobe, or even 50% in 2000 or 2001. I just find it silly to say it was ALL Shaq, even in 2000. 65-75% Shaq (not counting role players)? No problem. ALL Shaq is from the Skip Bayless, Stephen A Smith school of basketbal analysis, and I would hope you are better than that. But your bias clouds your judgement ... when Kobe and Duncan are not the subject matter, your posts are usually well informed. But this is a lot of horsehit, backed by the fact Shaq was not only the MVP of the league (when healthy and in shape) not only the Lakers. I get that. Yet still it was not ALL Shaq, I know I watched the Lakers for almost 25 years. When it was all Shaq, he got swept out of the playoffs ...consistently. He could not and did not win until Kobe and later Wade stepped up. He was not clutch because his FT shooting and (on the road) and foul trouble limited his effectiveness late in games.That is not hating. Just fact. It's also a fact, Shaq especially in Game 1's at home was the most dominanting player I have EVER seen not named MJ. Since you looked at Shaq's stats check his game 1 splits. I bet plenty of those eleven came in Games 1 and 2 and I bet at LEAST 7 are home games. Plenty of 30 and 15 games in those scenarios. But as the series shifts to San Antonio, Portland, Sacramento etc. his game suffered due to the lack of home-cooking and Kobe stepped up, even in 2000.

[ambchang]

LOL maybe. But 2001 Lakers would of swept that team. Maybe they (2009-2010) Lakers beat last year's Mavs, the 2007 Spurs and Wade's Heat but the last 2 Laker title teams were NOT stacked like the 2008 Celtics 2005 Spurs or even the Pistons of 2004.

Wonder why that is. The Lakers have Shaq, Fisher, Horry, and Fox in 2001, and Gasol, Bynum, Artest/Ariza in 09/10. Kobe became a more well-rounded and overall better in 09/10, and yet the 01 would have swept the 09/10 version by your own admission. Really speaks to how important Shaq was in 01, does it?
And also, I really need to clarify, I mean the Lakers were stacked in their years, allowing them to win the championship. I am not going into the argument of whether the 08 Celtics or 05 Spurs were more stacked, but the 09/10 Lakers were more stacked than any other 09/10 teams, thus allowing them to win the championship.


You take away Kobe, Phil and Fisher and that is a useless group of players without their leadership. Pau is a high skill player but would of never won shit without their guidance. In fact, Pau had to be carried on his spanish national teams more times than not. Not hating but it's a fact. Ask the euro fans on here. Manu and Scola owned his ass in international play and those countries are HUGE rivals in bball and soccer.

Pau was skilled, he may have lacked leadership skills, but his basketball skills are great. He may not be the second coming of KAJ, but he was skilled enough to be a top 5 big man in the league (some would argue top 3) in 09 and 10. That is what is important.

[Killakobe81]

Wonder why that is. The Lakers have Shaq, Fisher, Horry, and Fox in 2001, and Gasol, Bynum, Artest/Ariza in 09/10. Kobe became a more well-rounded and overall better in 09/10, and yet the 01 would have swept the 09/10 version by your own admission. Really speaks to how important Shaq was in 01, does it?
And also, I really need to clarify, I mean the Lakers were stacked in their years, allowing them to win the championship. I am not going into the argument of whether the 08 Celtics or 05 Spurs were more stacked, but the 09/10 Lakers were more stacked than any other 09/10 teams, thus allowing them to win the championship.



Pau was skilled, he may have lacked leadership skills, but his basketball skills are great. He may not be the second coming of KAJ, but he was skilled enough to be a top 5 big man in the league (some would argue top 3) in 09 and 10. That is what is important.

So we agree. Shaq was great. Where we disagree on is Kobe's importance to their teams. You can post all the bull-shit theories or stats you want, I saw those games and if you did too and watched objectively, how was 2000 ALL Shaq?! I watched al those games. I even have them on VHS.:lol

BTW, What title run was ALL Duncan or even MJ? Shaq had a future HOF to help him. Sure Kobe was young and not as good as he would someday be, but he had a ALL NBA team-mate at his side who they do not win without. 2001 was not ALL Shaq but of course he was important, he was the real MVP of the league at that time (2000-2002). Kobe, Fisher, Fox and Horry ALL made huge contributions. Shaq was the biggest but Kobe began to narrow that gap. I would say more 60-40 than 65/35 (2001) and 55/45 by 2002.

[ambchang]

Already conceded that it was MOSTLY Shaq. Never did I say it was all Kobe, or even 50% in 2000 or 2001. I just find it silly to say it was ALL Shaq, even in 2000. 65-75% Shaq (not counting role players)? No problem. ALL Shaq is from the Skip Bayless, Stephen A Smith school of basketbal analysis, and I would hope you are better than that. But your bias clouds your judgement ... when Kobe and Duncan are not the subject matter, your posts are usually well informed. But this is a lot of horsehit, backed by the fact Shaq was not only the MVP of the league (when healthy and in shape) not only the Lakers. I get that. Yet still it was not ALL Shaq, I know I watched the Lakers for almost 25 years. When it was all Shaq, he got swept out of the playoffs ...consistently. He could not and did not win until Kobe and later Wade stepped up. He was not clutch because his FT shooting and (on the road) and foul trouble limited his effectiveness late in games.That is not hating. Just fact. It's also a fact, Shaq especially in Game 1's at home was the most dominanting player I have EVER seen not named MJ. Since you looked at Shaq's stats check his game 1 splits. I bet plenty of those eleven came in Games 1 and 2 and I bet at LEAST 7 are home games. Plenty of 30 and 15 games in those scenarios. But as the series shifts to San Antonio, Portland, Sacramento etc. his game suffered due to the lack of home-cooking and Kobe stepped up, even in 2000.
I believe you are getting into the semantics. Of course ALL Shaq means all of the general success of the Lakers was due to Shaq and nobody else. If Shaq was subbed out of the Lakers, there would not be a single player in the entire league at that time that he could be substituted with in 00 and 01, not even with Duncan, not even with Garnett. Shaq achieved a peak Duncan never did (though Duncan had him beat on longevity, and I believe overall accomplishments).

On the other hand, Kobe could reasonably substituted with a player in that era (Carter, T-Mac, AI) and the Lakers would have the same degree of success. Could they have gone 15-1 and have the most dominating playoff run in NBA history? I don’t know, probably not I would venture, but they would have won the championship in dominating fashion anyways.

I can say the 03 championship by the Spurs were all Duncan, but was Robinson, Ginobili, Parker, Kerr, and even Glenn Robinson not important? Of course not, but they could be reasonably substituted by another comparable player, and the Spurs would have that level of success. The 03 Spurs were built around Duncan, the 00 and 01 Lakers were built around Shaq. There are no arguments around that.

On the other hand, taking 5 championship rings from Kobe, without any context of his involvement in those championship and declaring he is as accomplished as Shaq and Duncan because of those 5 rings is assasine.

[ambchang]

So we agree. Shaq was great. Where we disagree on is Kobe's importance to their teams. You can post all the bull-shit theories or stats you want, I saw those games and if you did too and watched objectively, how was 2000 ALL Shaq?! I watched al those games. I even have them on VHS.:lol

BTW, What title run was ALL Duncan or even MJ? Shaq had a future HOF to help him. Sure Kobe was young and not as good as he would someday be, but he had a ALL NBA team-mate at his side who they do not win without. 2001 was not ALL Shaq but of course he was important, he was the real MVP of the league at that time (2000-2002). Kobe, Fisher, Fox and Horry ALL made huge contributions. Shaq was the biggest but Kobe began to narrow that gap. I would say more 60-40 than 65/35 (2001) and 55/45 by 2002.
I am not so sure you watched those games given your comments about 01 of Spurs having Bowen. But that aside, I would say 99, 03, and even 05 were all Duncan. Ginobili was fantastic in 05, but let’s face it, Duncan was the Spurs in 05, and any Spurs opposition game plan strictly for Duncan.

All six titles of Jordan were all Jordan. Pippen was great, HoFer, but Jordan was the Bulls.

[Killakobe81]

I am not so sure you watched those games given your comments about 01 of Spurs having Bowen. But that aside, I would say 99, 03, and even 05 were all Duncan. Ginobili was fantastic in 05, but let’s face it, Duncan was the Spurs in 05, and any Spurs opposition game plan strictly for Duncan.

All six titles of Jordan were all Jordan. Pippen was great, HoFer, but Jordan was the Bulls.

:lol I have not missed a Lakers playoff game since 1984. I made a mistake, and I owned up to it. But havent watched those tapes in over 5 years. I dont even have my VCR set-up currently. But i watched ALL of those games and some of them more than once.

:rollin
:lmao
:nope

Duncan was amazing in 2003 he did a HUGE portion of the heavy lifting. But Jordan never won before Pippen developed, and Shaq none before Kobe did. Olajawon is the only Major superstar in 25 years (Pistons in 2004 had no true superstars) that won a title without a HOFer or future HOFer as a #2. Duncan had David for the first two and Parker and Manu for the last two.

What good team makes a defensive game-plan strictly for one player? Brooks and Spoletstra are morons and Im pretty sure their devensive schemes are not strictly for durant and Lebron. Your argument is so full of holes.

Duncan is a great player, arguably better than Kobe and Hakeem it's also debatable he is not. But no need to discredit anyone to prop up his accomplishments. You are knocking the contributions of HOF caliber players David, Pippen, Kobe, Mau and Parker to suck off Tim ....

Gameplans were STRICTLY for Duncan .. you love to speak in absolutes, dont you? :lmao

[Killakobe81]

Shaq played with 5 other HOF caliber players in his career. I wont count Boston or that would be 8. He was the star twice and the #2 option 3 times. Only Kobe and Wade were able to lift enough to help shaq win a title even though you point out how dominant Shaq was. That doesnt help your argument, it helps mine. Kobe helped Shaq win 3 of his 4 rings. Wade, Penny Nash and Lebron got him one ...

[Killakobe81]

YOU also realize you are doing the same crap Kobe fanbois do to prop up Kobe? I wouldnt even give ALL the credit to Kobe in 2009 or 2010.

[ambchang]

:lol I have not missed a Lakers playoff game since 1984. I made a mistake, and I owned up to it. But havent watched those tapes in over 5 years. I dont even have my VCR set-up currently. But i watched ALL of those games and some of them more than once.

:rollin
:lmao
:nope


No problem, nobody’s perfect. It just casted some doubt in my mind.

Duncan was amazing in 2003 he did a HUGE portion of the heavy lifting. But Jordan never won before Pippen developed, and Shaq none before Kobe did. Olajawon is the only Major superstar in 25 years (Pistons in 2004 had no true superstars) that won a title without a HOFer or future HOFer as a #2. Duncan had David for the first two and Parker and Manu for the last two.

What good team makes a defensive game-plan strictly for one player? Brooks and Spoletstra are morons and Im pretty sure their devensive schemes are not strictly for durant and Lebron. Your argument is so full of holes.

Defensive game-plans are sometimes designed around one player, because an entire team’s offence could be designed around one player. 94 Rockets was an extreme example. Those three pointer shooters were there strictly because of Hakeem. Does that mean the other teams decide not to guard any of the other guys? Of course not, but the general defense was planned around one player, and in 00 and 01, it was undoubtedly Shaq (I would argue 02 as well, but NBA revisionist is changing it up).


Duncan is a great player, arguably better than Kobe and Hakeem it's also debatable he is not. But no need to discredit anyone to prop up his accomplishments. You are knocking the contributions of HOF caliber players David, Pippen, Kobe, Mau and Parker to suck off Tim ....

Gameplans were STRICTLY for Duncan .. you love to speak in absolutes, dont you? :lmao

Duncan and Hakeem are arguable. I would say Hakeem was most definitely the better individual player. Put them in a game one on one, and Hakeem would destroy Duncan every single time. And I mean destroy.

In a team context though, if both players were surrounded by a reasonable supporting cast of comparable role players that play to their strengths, I think Duncan’s team would come out slightly on top in a 7-game series, and Duncan’s team would be easier to build.

On the other hand, Kobe? It isn’t even debatable, Kobe is not in the same strata as Hakeem, Duncan and Shaq. He is slightly, but clearly a level below.


Shaq played with 5 other HOF caliber players in his career. I wont count Boston or that would be 8. He was the star twice and the #2 option 3 times. Only Kobe and Wade were able to lift enough to help shaq win a title even though you point out how dominant Shaq was. That doesnt help your argument, it helps mine. Kobe helped Shaq win 3 of his 4 rings. Wade, Penny Nash and Lebron got him one ...

Shaq had a two year absolute prime. During his Orlando days, he was a poor passer. During his Heat and Suns day, he was over the hill. Your argument would have made sense if Shaq was consistently good for 20 years, but everyone knows Shaq’s prime was with the Lakers.

Also, Phil Jackson and Pat Riley may have a little something to do with this.


YOU also realize you are doing the same crap Kobe fanbois do to prop up Kobe? I wouldnt even give ALL the credit to Kobe in 2009 or 2010.

Did I say 09 and 10 were all Kobe?

[timvp]

Missing the play:lolffs during one's prime.

[spursncowboys]

You had to see him play. He was dominant, unshakeable.

Just look at his stats. He was ridiculous.

I think it is because how he went out. He stayed in too long.

[mavs>spurs]

Always putting Kobe where he doesnt belong. Nobody in their right mind would consider Kobe at 4. Excluding old timers:

MJ
KAJ
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
Dream
Kobe

Hasnt the biggest knock on Olajuwon always been the fact that he had a relatively short prime? Or is that BS??

If you don't know then why even rank him at all? Dream was a mothafuckin beast