Player Pairs - 2012 Playoffs

[timvp]

Here are the Player Pairs for the entire playoff run. A green cell means that the player in the column improved the number for the player in the row. A red cell means the opposite. So basically, the more green in a player's column, the better.


Point Differential Per 100 Possessions
http://www.dailyelements.com/ppp121.jpg


Points Scored Per 100 Possessions
http://www.dailyelements.com/ppp122.jpg


Points Allowed Per 100 Possessions
http://www.dailyelements.com/ppp123.jpg



-The most shocking of all these numbers belong to Manu Ginobili. In the regular season, Ginobili led the entire NBA in the offensive category at 122.22. To go from leading the NBA to making every teammate worse on offense in the playoffs is unfathomable. Going even further, the Spurs scored 114.01 points per 100 possessions when Ginobili was off the court -- the highest mark on the team. Wow.

My first reaction is to blame the fact that he was coming off of a bench that had a few players choking around him. But then I look at Jackson's numbers and that excuse loses all standing. I don't know what a legit excuse would be for Ginobili. I guess we can just hope it's a small sample size ... the again, making players better has been Ginobili's expertise since joining the NBA. I can say with confidence that he's never gone through a 14-game stretch where he's made every player worse. If we can't blame small sample size, either Ginobili got old overnight or he just wasn't himself in the playoffs. Very strange.

Defensively, Ginobili wasn't very good ... but that's not much of a surprise. His defense started slipping in the regular season. At this point in his career, his ceiling going into each game is to be a slightly above average defender. If he takes his foot off the gas, it doesn't take much for him to play poorly on that end.

-If you remember correctly, Tim Duncan's plus/minus numbers were mediocre during the regular season. At times, to put it bluntly, the numbers were saying he was holding the team back. That obviously wasn't the case in the playoffs. These numbers point to Duncan being a beast. He was the team's second best offensive player in the playoffs after being the tenth best player in that category during the regular season. Defensively, Duncan remains an elite force.

When Duncan was off the court in the playoffs, the Spurs were outscored by a team-high 9.01 points per 100 possessions. Even at 36, one could argue this team depends on Duncan more than any player. It was a disappointing end to his season but Duncan's closing push this year down the stretch was legendary.

-There's really nothing to complain about regarding Tony Parker's numbers. He had a very strong regular season and improved both his offense and his defense in the playoffs. To say that Parker was the engine that powered these Spurs would be an understatement. In the playoffs, the Spurs completely collapsed when he was on the bench: the offense was 105.83, the defense was 114.29.

Even Duncan and Ginobili were pretty helpless with Parker off the court. Ginobili got outscored by 9.59 points per 100 possessions without Parker at his side (Parker without Ginobili? +15.43). Duncan's number is even worse: an unbelievable -66.67. We can subjectively nitpick Parker's playoff performance but these numbers say he more than held up his end of the bargain.

-Danny Green's shooting (or lack of it) versus the Thunder is what we'll remember from him in these playoffs ... but, damn, was he good when he shot well enough to stay on the court. Probably the most amazing positive stat: Green was the team's best offense player and the team's best defensive player.

As long as Green wasn't playing next to Neal, he was basically helping the Spurs destroy the competition. Yes, Green's numbers are helped due to playing a lot with Duncan and Parker but the fact that he played so well with bench players who otherwise sucked tells me he was doing a lot right on his own. Plus, advanced plus/minus numbers point to Green being one of the best players on the team throughout this entire season -- so I don't think these numbers are a complete fluke. Those misses against the Thunder will haunt Green for a while but overall he had a successful first playoff run.

-Boris Diaw, like Green, got a boost from playing a lot with the dominant starting group. But what sticks out in his numbers is the fact that he was so strong on defense. Subjectively, he looked strong on that end. These numbers back that up. I'm a little surprised that his offensive numbers weren't strong but, then again, he did pass up a lot of shots throughout the playoffs.

-Kawhi Leonard's numbers are drastic. With the starters, he was pretty damn awesome. With the bench players, he was an absolute disaster. I can't really figure out why he'd be that bad with the bench. Perhaps it's due to a young player doing well when knowing his role but failing to be able to make adjustments on the fly when thrown into new situations. If that was the case, he'd join just about every other 20-year-old rookie who ever played in sharing that trait.

-Offensively, Stephen Jackson was by far the best bench player. His dead-eye shooting in the playoffs helped in that regard but I also think that probably goes to show his underrated playmaking and passing is useful on this team. Defensively, though, Jackson was pretty damn bad. That said, Jackson has a couple excuses that make sense: 1) he was playing with a bunch of poor defenders off the bench 2) he had to defend Millsap in the first round, one of the speedy Clippers guards in the second round and Durant in the WCF ... not exactly an easy run for him on that end.

-I was wrong about Gary Neal. I thought he wouldn't kill the team as the backup point guard. It turns out he killed the team. His defense was ten times beyond horrible. His offense wasn't much better. With this level of a disaster, the Spurs simply can't go into next season with Neal as the backup point guard.

-What a disappointment Tiago Splitter was on the defensive end. He put up numbers almost as bad as Neal? I don't even know what the hell happened. His offense remained at a high enough level but his defense was so bad that these numbers say Splitter was basically unplayable. I mean, the opposition scored 116.31 points per 100 possessions when Splitter played without Green. That's absurd. (I wanted to blame Neal for Splitter's poor defense but that wasn't the case. Splitter still gave up 110.26 points per 100 possessions when he played without Neal.)

Now that I think about it, I first noticed Splitter's numbers dropping near the end of the regular season:
Tiago Splitter's offensive numbers are strong. That's logical. But why are his defensive numbers so weak? The only players with weaker defensive numbers overall are Ginobili and Neal. Just judging by these numbers, you'd think he has a lot of trouble protecting the rim because his numbers are bad with those who allow penetration and decent to good with those who excel at cutting off penetration. Hmmmm...

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195296
Subjectively, Splitter doesn't look like a horrible defender. He sometimes has trouble holding his ground when getting bumped. I guess that issue is more of a negative than previously thought.

-I don't even like writing about Matt Bonner anymore. I hate that yet another playoff run was allowed to be negatively influenced by the copper-capped choker. I would say that I'm surprised Bonner went from the best offensive player in the NBA (minimum 800 minutes) during the regular season to the worst offensive player on the Spurs in the playoffs ... but I'm not surprised at all. Bonner spacing the floor only happens in the regular season. He doesn't space the court at all in the postseason. The only thing he spaces in the playoffs is San Antonio's distance from a championship trophy.

115.89 in the regular season to 103.69 in the playoffs? He single-handedly was able to neuter Duncan and Parker when he was in the game. Seriously, this guy needs to be off the team. Just go. Now. The King must be ousted.

[vato loco]

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/154/912/berneydidnotread.gif?1318992465

[tesseractive]

Great post. Lots to chew on. :tu


The most shocking of all these numbers belong to Manu Ginobili. In the regular season, Ginobili led the entire NBA in the offensive category at 122.22. To go from leading the NBA to making every teammate worse on offense in the playoffs is unfathomable. Going even further, the Spurs scored 114.01 points per 100 possessions when Ginobili was off the court -- the highest mark on the team. Wow.

My first reaction is to blame the fact that he was coming off of a bench that had a few players choking around him. But then I look at Jackson's numbers and that excuse loses all standing. I don't know what a legit excuse would be for Ginobili. I guess we can just hope it's a small sample size ... the again, making players better has been Ginobili's expertise since joining the NBA. I can say with confidence that he's never gone through a 14-game stretch where he's made every player worse. If we can't blame small sample size, either Ginobili got old overnight or he just wasn't himself in the playoffs. Very strange.

Defensively, Ginobili wasn't very good ... but that's not much of a surprise. His defense started slipping in the regular season. At this point in his career, his ceiling going into each game is to be a slightly above average defender. If he takes his foot off the gas, it doesn't take much for him to play poorly on that end.
:depressed

Sadly, I think we may have to look for an upgrade at the 2 during crunch time this offseason and limit Manu's role to offense off the bench. Totally hope I'm wrong about that, though.


Boris Diaw, like Green, got a boost from playing a lot with the dominant starting group. But what sticks out in his numbers is the fact that he was so strong on defense. Subjectively, he looked strong on that end. These numbers back that up.
That was my subjective impression too. I'd say this is a great argument for bringing him back. Plus there's always the possibility that Pop and Tony working in tandem can convince him to shoot the damn ball -- sometimes an offseason in the system can work wonders.


What a disappointment Tiago Splitter was on the defensive end. He put up numbers almost as bad as Neal? I don't even know what the hell happened. His offense remained at a high enough level but his defense was so bad that these numbers say Splitter was basically unplayable. I mean, the opposition scored 116.31 points per 100 possessions when Splitter played without Green. That's absurd. (I wanted to blame Neal for Splitter's poor defense but that wasn't the case. Splitter still gave up 110.26 points per 100 possessions when he played without Neal.)

Now that I think about it, I first noticed Splitter's numbers dropping near the end of the regular season:Subjectively, Splitter doesn't look like a horrible defender. He sometimes has trouble holding his ground when getting bumped. I guess that issue is more of a negative than previously thought.
Injury or suckitude? An important question that factors heavily into what we decide to do this offseason.

[ElNono]

Actually, I wonder how skewed are those numbers from the first 2 series vs the OKC series. Guys like Green look rosy there, but as we know, he was useless against OKC... on the other hand, while not stellar overall, Manu probably looks much better in that series than in the 1st two...

Thanks for the writeup though

[timvp]

Actually, I wonder how skewed are those numbers from the first 2 series vs the OKC series. Guys like Green look rosy there, but as we know, he was useless against OKC... on the other hand, while not stellar overall, Manu probably looks much better in that series than in the 1st two...

Thanks for the writeup though

I'm planning on breaking down the Thunder series specifically. One surprising thing about the Thunder series so far: Green was only one of three players to post a positive plus/minus for that series (Duncan and Parker being the other two). So even with Green not hitting the ocean, he was still helpful.

We can only imagine how very helpful he would have been if he was shooting straight :depressed

[ElNono]

I'm planning on breaking down the Thunder series specifically. One surprising thing about the Thunder series so far: Green was only one of three players to post a positive plus/minus for that series (Duncan and Parker being the other two). So even with Green not hitting the ocean, he was still helpful.

We can only imagine how very helpful he would have been if he was shooting straight :depressed

I appreciate you taking the time to do this stuff, and I'm sure some people find the breakdown interesting, but I still think plus/minus is really a bad stat to gauge individual performances. Yes, I'm sticking with that even though in this case it agrees with my Bonner is a weak ass choker observation.

Obviously, that's just a personal opinion, so just carry on :tu

[timvp]

Sadly, I think we may have to look for an upgrade at the 2 during crunch time this offseason and limit Manu's role to offense off the bench. Totally hope I'm wrong about that, though.Ironically, if Manu can't carry the bench anymore by himself, which is the reason why he is/was such a valuable sixth man, he might actually end up starting.


Injury or suckitude? An important question that factors heavily into what we decide to do this offseason.Good point.

Neal is painfully obvious defensively. Anyone can see that. But Splitter being so damn bad is pretty surprising. I mean, this is the same guy who more than half the board was saying surpassed Duncan defensively earlier this season.

Hopefully he just got tired over the course of a long season. If he's legitimately the center version of Neal, the Spurs very well might have to replace him.

[tesseractive]

Ironically, if Manu can't carry the bench anymore by himself, which is the reason why he is/was such a valuable sixth man, he might actually end up starting.

Interesting point. If we more or less stand pat this offseason, resign Green, and either bring in De Colo as the backup point or promote Mills, we'll still have a huge defensive hole at guard in the second unit. Moving Green to the second unit would help alleviate that. Of course, the question then becomes whether any of those guys can do anything on offense against other second units.


Neal is painfully obvious defensively. Anyone can see that. But Splitter being so damn bad is pretty surprising. I mean, this is the same guy who more than half the board was saying surpassed Duncan defensively earlier this season.

Hopefully he just got tired over the course of a long season. If he's legitimately the center version of Neal, the Spurs very well might have to replace him.
The center version of Gary Neal? Yikes.

[TampaDude]

Some changes need to be made in the offseason. That much is clear.

[polandprzem]

nvm thread tbh

[spurs10]

Thanks for these pairings. The more I study them the more questions I have. The first would be, do we keep Neal if he wasn't playing pg and just played the 2? He would be a third stringer. He simply can't play point any longer. I think the priority will be moving Matt, if we can find a taker. With both Matt and Neal gone in the regular season our 3 pt% is sure to plummet.
Tiago's defensive numbers are shocking and do indeed make him 'unplayable.' All this is even harder to get my head around considering we were 10-4, and only game 3 vs. OKC was a blowout.
Hopefully Manu looks better when we're only looking at the WCF numbers. OKC's perimeter shooting being off the chart has helped to lure me off the ledge, but I'm still not safely indoors just yet. Thanks again timvp and Happy Father's Day.

[therealtruth]

Ironically, if Manu can't carry the bench anymore by himself, which is the reason why he is/was such a valuable sixth man, he might actually end up starting.

Good point.

Neal is painfully obvious defensively. Anyone can see that. But Splitter being so damn bad is pretty surprising. I mean, this is the same guy who more than half the board was saying surpassed Duncan defensively earlier this season.

Hopefully he just got tired over the course of a long season. If he's legitimately the center version of Neal, the Spurs very well might have to replace him.

Splitter was definitely hitting his peak offensively and defensively before he got injured. I think he never really was the same after that and I also think Pop went away from him more. I definitely remember him protecting the rim with more ferocity earlier in the season.

I think the numbers validate that Pop's desperation move of starting Ginobili because of Green missing shots actually backfired. The defense got worse and it took away from TP's aggressiveness in game 5 and threw all the rotations in wack. Green's shots would eventually have fallen. Also if Pop was that desperate to make a move starting SJax would have made more sense because of his ability to post up Westbrook.

Bottomline, Pop overreacted to OKC's big men going crazy from the field and it hurt the team. He's failed to follow his advice of keep pounding the rock.

[therealtruth]

Thanks for these pairings. The more I study them the more questions I have. The first would be, do we keep Neal if he wasn't playing pg and just played the 2? He would be a third stringer. He simply can't play point any longer. I think the priority will be moving Matt, if we can find a taker. With both Matt and Neal gone in the regular season our 3 pt% is sure to plummet.
Tiago's defensive numbers are shocking and do indeed make him 'unplayable.' All this is even harder to get my head around considering we were 10-4, and only game 3 vs. OKC was a blowout.
Hopefully Manu looks better when we're only looking at the WCF numbers. OKC's perimeter shooting being off the chart has helped to lure me off the ledge, but I'm still not safely indoors just yet. Thanks again timvp and Happy Father's Day.

I think Gary Neal belongs in a Daequan Cook role. We need to get better defensively and Neal hurts us. We need a true backup point guard.

[Dex]

ducks is gonna have a field day with this.

[EVAY]

I think Gary Neal belongs in a Daequan Cook role. We need to get better defensively and Neal hurts us. We need a true backup point guard.

This is a terrific idea. Neal is absolutely best utilized with his strengths, i.e.,
pull-up shooting. The coaches tried to make him into something else this year and, putting it mildly, it didn't work. We shouldn't beat him up for him not being great at basically playing out of position. Some players can make that transition. It is clear that Neal is not one of them. But he is still superb at his strengths, sooooo...keep him and only ask of him what he does well.

[EVAY]

Timvp:

Thanks for the write-up. It actually confirms my own subjective impressions.

Manu has always been my very favorite player...what a warrior! But I had to admit that after the first game against the Thunder, he couldn't carry the water.
Clearly, it wasn't a lack of heart or a lack of balls or anything else. He just couldn't bring it and that was heartbreaking to watch. But I want him to be a Spur as long as he wants to be a Spur.

Regarding Tim and Tony....Once again, all the numbers point to Parker being the only thing that keeps this team in the competition. I do have a problem with what appears to be a tendency to begrudge some accolades for Tony. If Tim 'was a beast', and Tony's offensive and defensive numbers both improved in the playoffs, I think you can honestly point to Parker's play being at 'beast' level in the playoffs as well, rather than "to say he was the engine that powered these Spurs would be an an understatement". Or starting with "nothing really to complain about." ???

C'mon. We don't have to understate the Frenchman. The guy who was rated 5th in MVP voting (I know you said you were surprised at that when it happened...my point is that you don't seem to recognize his value...or else have trouble admitting it) improved his play from when he was in the MVP hunt to even better numbers in the playoffs.

The Spurs would never have been anywhere near the playoffs this year had Tony not been a monster during the regular season, playing more minutes in more games than any other player, and leading in the team in all regular stats. In the playoffs he improved his playing, and only when we hit the youngest, fastest and strongest team we had faced was he unable to single-handedly overcome the poor showings of anybody except Duncan and Jackson.

When you check the stats against the OKC series, I hope that you will remember that Duncan's match ups in that series should have been easier for him than the two and three player teams that Parker faced virtually every possession.

Manu has always been my favorite and I admit it. I would rather watch him play basketball than any other Spur including Duncan. But I have no problem giving the props to Tony for this whole season and the playoffs.

Enough people on this board are foolish enough to challenge his manhood when he sometimes gets beat. I don't count you among those. But your writing does indicate that it sometimes hurts you just a bit to admit that we owe him as much as we do.

[timvp]

I do have a problem with what appears to be a tendency to begrudge some accolades for Tony. If Tim 'was a beast', and Tony's offensive and defensive numbers both improved in the playoffs, I think you can honestly point to Parker's play being at 'beast' level in the playoffs as well, rather than "to say he was the engine that powered these Spurs would be an an understatement". :lmao

That was Onion quality.

It was sarcasm, right?

[EVAY]

I always forget to put it in blue.

[Bruno]

First, I don't think you can put Spurs loss on a couple of players. Pop nailed Spurs issue, they have reached their limit. Spurs have exceeded expectations this year.

In the playoffs, there have been one constant: the bench sucked. It should be put on 3 players: Neal, Bonner and Splitter. Pop and Spurs FO should draw conclusion from that:
- As he is, Neal can't stay the backup PG. The only way he could be back at that spot are with 20lbs less while working a lot during the offseason on his quickness, ballhandling and decision making. That's a lot to do and it would fail so the safer road for Spurs would be to put him back at the SG spot.
- Bonner is a playoff choker. Every Spurs fan know it. Hopefully Pop will finally get it. He can only remain with Spurs if he stays at the deep end of the bench.
- I don't know what happened with Splitter. He hasn't an history of choking but what happened in the playoffs looked a lot like that. Spurs should still keep him especially with Duncan aging but if a team offers a lot for him, a trade could be the best option.

[therealtruth]

First, I don't think you can put Spurs loss on a couple of players. Pop nailed Spurs issue, they have reached their limit. Spurs have exceeded expectations this year.

In the playoffs, there have been one constant: the bench sucked. It should be put on 3 players: Neal, Bonner and Splitter. Pop and Spurs FO should draw conclusion from that:
- As he is, Neal can't stay the backup PG. The only way he could be back at that spot are with 20lbs less while working a lot during the offseason on his quickness, ballhandling and decision making. That's a lot to do and it would fail so the safer road for Spurs would be to put him back at the SG spot.
- Bonner is a playoff choker. Every Spurs fan know it. Hopefully Pop will finally get it. He can only remain with Spurs if he stays at the deep end of the bench.
- I don't know what happened with Splitter. He hasn't an history of choking but what happened in the playoffs looked a lot like that. Spurs should still keep him especially with Duncan aging but if a team offers a lot for him, a trade could be the best option.

Splitter certainly dropped off but even then he was ok in the first two games. Splitter is one of those players I think who needs consistent minutes and a consistent role to play well.

[TD 21]

-The most shocking of all these numbers belong to Manu Ginobili. In the regular season, Ginobili led the entire NBA in the offensive category at 122.22. To go from leading the NBA to making every teammate worse on offense in the playoffs is unfathomable. Going even further, the Spurs scored 114.01 points per 100 possessions when Ginobili was off the court -- the highest mark on the team. Wow.

My first reaction is to blame the fact that he was coming off of a bench that had a few players choking around him. But then I look at Jackson's numbers and that excuse loses all standing. I don't know what a legit excuse would be for Ginobili. I guess we can just hope it's a small sample size ... the again, making players better has been Ginobili's expertise since joining the NBA. I can say with confidence that he's never gone through a 14-game stretch where he's made every player worse. If we can't blame small sample size, either Ginobili got old overnight or he just wasn't himself in the playoffs. Very strange.

A legit excuse would be regression to the mean. He was ridiculously efficient and productive during the regular season, even by his lofty standards.


-If you remember correctly, Tim Duncan's plus/minus numbers were mediocre during the regular season. At times, to put it bluntly, the numbers were saying he was holding the team back. That obviously wasn't the case in the playoffs. These numbers point to Duncan being a beast. He was the team's second best offensive player in the playoffs after being the tenth best player in that category during the regular season. Defensively, Duncan remains an elite force.

When Duncan was off the court in the playoffs, the Spurs were outscored by a team-high 9.01 points per 100 possessions. Even at 36, one could argue this team depends on Duncan more than any player. It was a disappointing end to his season but Duncan's closing push this year down the stretch was legendary. He was the best, most consistent Spur in the playoffs (and really, one of the best players in general). He may not have had quite the highs of Parker and Ginobili, but he was far more steady.


-Danny Green's shooting (or lack of it) versus the Thunder is what we'll remember from him in these playoffs ... but, damn, was he good when he shot well enough to stay on the court. Probably the most amazing positive stat: Green was the team's best offense player and the team's best defensive player.

As long as Green wasn't playing next to Neal, he was basically helping the Spurs destroy the competition. Yes, Green's numbers are helped due to playing a lot with Duncan and Parker but the fact that he played so well with bench players who otherwise sucked tells me he was doing a lot right on his own. Plus, advanced plus/minus numbers point to Green being one of the best players on the team throughout this entire season -- so I don't think these numbers are a complete fluke. Those misses against the Thunder will haunt Green for a while but overall he had a successful first playoff run.I agree. I knew all along he was due for a shooting slump, which is why from the latter stages of the Jazz series on, I was almost hoping that he'd get his out of the way before the Conference Finals, because I thought they needed him to play a significant role in that series.


-I was wrong about Gary Neal. I thought he wouldn't kill the team as the backup point guard. It turns out he killed the team. His defense was ten times beyond horrible. His offense wasn't much better. With this level of a disaster, the Spurs simply can't go into next season with Neal as the backup point guard. Same. But I never thought it made sense to go into next season with as the backup PG, no matter how he performed in the role down the stretch. In made sense with such limited time/options left after Ford announced his retirement, but not for a full season.

He obviously shouldn't be the full time backup PG and he's obviously way overqualified as a fifth guard, so basically it comes down to picking either him or Green and there's no reason not to pick Green. He's bigger, younger, more athletic, has a more well rounded game and even though he's not the shot creator/off the dribble shooter Neal is, he still shot a better percentage from three.

As helpful as Neal's ability to get his own is, it's not as necessary as it was. With Jackson on board, even though he's declining and he'll primarily be a spot up shooter, he showed he can still create some and presuming Mills returns, he showed he can create as well. Speaking of Mills, he showed enough (albeit in limited viewing) that I think they'll feel comfortable handing over the primary backup reigns to him.


-What a disappointment Tiago Splitter was on the defensive end. He put up numbers almost as bad as Neal? I don't even know what the hell happened. His offense remained at a high enough level but his defense was so bad that these numbers say Splitter was basically unplayable. I mean, the opposition scored 116.31 points per 100 possessions when Splitter played without Green. That's absurd. (I wanted to blame Neal for Splitter's poor defense but that wasn't the case. Splitter still gave up 110.26 points per 100 possessions when he played without Neal.)

Now that I think about it, I first noticed Splitter's numbers dropping near the end of the regular season:Subjectively, Splitter doesn't look like a horrible defender. He sometimes has trouble holding his ground when getting bumped. I guess that issue is more of a negative than previously thought. He was never the same post injury, which is inexplicable given that it shouldn't have been the type of injury that alters a player's game. But his post game, free throw shooting, rebounding and overall level of aggression all got considerably worse.

I've said on multiple occasions he should be traded, mainly for the same reasons Hill was. But at the same time, if they can't find a deal to their liking (Smith should be the primary target), then he should be retained.


-I don't even like writing about Matt Bonner anymore. I hate that yet another playoff run was allowed to be negatively influenced by the copper-capped choker. I would say that I'm surprised Bonner went from the best offensive player in the NBA (minimum 800 minutes) during the regular season to the worst offensive player on the Spurs in the playoffs ... but I'm not surprised at all. Bonner spacing the floor only happens in the regular season. He doesn't space the court at all in the postseason. The only thing he spaces in the playoffs is San Antonio's distance from a championship trophy.

115.89 in the regular season to 103.69 in the playoffs? He single-handedly was able to neuter Duncan and Parker when he was in the game. Seriously, this guy needs to be off the team. Just go. Now. The King must be oustedSince it's a virtual given that one of Diaw or Lorbek will be on the team next season, this should be the end of the line for Bonner.

[PublicOption]

we should have went with Jackson, Gino, Duncan, Parker and Blair......as starters at the beginning of the series. With Leonard being first off the bench.

[therealtruth]

Timvp:

Thanks for the write-up. It actually confirms my own subjective impressions.

Manu has always been my very favorite player...what a warrior! But I had to admit that after the first game against the Thunder, he couldn't carry the water.
Clearly, it wasn't a lack of heart or a lack of balls or anything else. He just couldn't bring it and that was heartbreaking to watch. But I want him to be a Spur as long as he wants to be a Spur.

Regarding Tim and Tony....Once again, all the numbers point to Parker being the only thing that keeps this team in the competition. I do have a problem with what appears to be a tendency to begrudge some accolades for Tony. If Tim 'was a beast', and Tony's offensive and defensive numbers both improved in the playoffs, I think you can honestly point to Parker's play being at 'beast' level in the playoffs as well, rather than "to say he was the engine that powered these Spurs would be an an understatement". Or starting with "nothing really to complain about." ???

C'mon. We don't have to understate the Frenchman. The guy who was rated 5th in MVP voting (I know you said you were surprised at that when it happened...my point is that you don't seem to recognize his value...or else have trouble admitting it) improved his play from when he was in the MVP hunt to even better numbers in the playoffs.

The Spurs would never have been anywhere near the playoffs this year had Tony not been a monster during the regular season, playing more minutes in more games than any other player, and leading in the team in all regular stats. In the playoffs he improved his playing, and only when we hit the youngest, fastest and strongest team we had faced was he unable to single-handedly overcome the poor showings of anybody except Duncan and Jackson.

When you check the stats against the OKC series, I hope that you will remember that Duncan's match ups in that series should have been easier for him than the two and three player teams that Parker faced virtually every possession.

Manu has always been my favorite and I admit it. I would rather watch him play basketball than any other Spur including Duncan. But I have no problem giving the props to Tony for this whole season and the playoffs.

Enough people on this board are foolish enough to challenge his manhood when he sometimes gets beat. I don't count you among those. But your writing does indicate that it sometimes hurts you just a bit to admit that we owe him as much as we do.

Parker needs a consistent number two option he can play off. TD and Manu are probably best as 3rd options at this point.

[EVAY]

Parker needs a consistent number two option he can play off. TD and Manu are probably best as 3rd options at this point.

Agreed. And the team needs a back up point guard who can play NOW.

[ginobili fan]

Great stats timmvp.
Yeah Manu can't be 6th man / superman anymore he's turning 35 next month :wow
As we're still having Bonner on this team it's gonna be very hard.
I agree too that Neal is a major problem, Manu isn't efficient when Neal's on the court,
either start Manu/Tim/Tony/Kawhi/Boris or it

[ginobili fan]

How about Manu at PG ???
If he manages to not turnover too much I'm pretty sure he can be great, as he's getting more and more older. His creativity and BBIQ paired can be better than getting him go against youger and stronger younguns.
And that means no need of a back up PG,and no neal.

[siraulo23]

so ginobili let the spurs down...

again... :stirpot:

well at least he was finally healthy for an entire playoff run...

[timvp]

compare player pair numbers for durant, lebron, kobe, chris paul to parker's

he's supposed to be our mvp right?

Parker +12.31
LeBron +10.06
Durant +6.28
Kobe -4.67
CP3 -7.92

Ultimate self crownage, statistically speaking.





What's happened to the Mookie Crew? Pego is tinfoiling it. hemann is on an Argie level Parker scoff trip. CBF was torn who to root for and is now arm in arm with Sooner Nation and Stoops. Mookie is now so skinny he lost his country strength. Hunter can't find a practice jersey. 4cc went bigtime and forgot about the crew. I lost track of who GTown is posting under these days. Only Rita seems to be holding up after this collapse.

[therealtruth]

so ginobili let the spurs down...

again... :stirpot:

well at least he was finally healthy for an entire playoff run...

At this point a healthy Manu is not enough. We need more star power.

[ploto]

Obviously on and off court numbers are highly influenced by who the player is with whom you switch out.

[Budkin]

Amazing stats once again timvp. It's depressing as hell to see those numbers, and know that many of our guys just couldn't hack it in the playoffs. We went from invincible to eliminated in such a short time that I'm still shell shocked. I don't think I've even gotten past the denial stage yet. This was supposed to be our year. :depressed

[rascal]

Amazing stats once again timvp. It's depressing as hell to see those numbers, and know that many of our guys just couldn't hack it in the playoffs. We went from invincible to eliminated in such a short time that I'm still shell shocked. I don't think I've even gotten past the denial stage yet. This was supposed to be our year. :depressed

Who says it was suppose to be the Spurs year. the Spurs were lucky to get as far as they did. The Spurs did well considering who they had playing on the frontline.


The Spurs had a couple of easy playoff matchups and the first good team they face they get beat.

[rascal]

I'm planning on breaking down the Thunder series specifically. One surprising thing about the Thunder series so far: Green was only one of three players to post a positive plus/minus for that series (Duncan and Parker being the other two). So even with Green not hitting the ocean, he was still helpful.

We can only imagine how very helpful he would have been if he was shooting straight :depressed

You can further break it up to the two wins vs the four losses. What happened to casuse a shift in the series? See if you can come up with a logical answer to why the Spurs collapsed.

[dylankerouac]

Thanks for this, I've been itching for a good read some days now.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Pretty much what to expect after watching the playoffs with a level head.

Manu was healthy, finally, he just did not have the tools to be the manu we needed to win a championship.

Danny green going cold in the WCF was the first crack in the armor, that made, manu look even more ineffective. This team was built on the rotation that won 20 games,.and there was just no room for green and splitter and manu to underperform.

No surprise we lost to the thunder

[ducks]

manu should have been traded for player close to his value before last year
no d no good o
2 really good games out out of 14 not impressive
even timvp facts back it up

[ducks]

You can further break it up to the two wins vs the four losses. What happened to casuse a shift in the series? See if you can come up with a logical answer to why the Spurs collapsed.

manu and duncan both player better on 3 days rest
there was no extra day rest at all in wcf
other playoff games this year yes

[ducks]

so ginobili let the spurs down...

again... :stirpot:

well at least he was finally healthy for an entire playoff run...

:bang:bang:bang:bang:bang:bang:bang:bang:bang:bang :bang:bang:rolleyes

[ducks]

cole for manu?
cole atleast would mean a legit backup point

[spurs10]

You can further break it up to the two wins vs the four losses. What happened to casuse a shift in the series? See if you can come up with a logical answer to why the Spurs collapsed.
The previous thread timvp put up regarding the 'out of this universe' perimeter shooting of OKC in the WCF explains it all. Each one of them shot 10-30% better from 15 ft. out than all year.
It will be interesting seeing how their shooting in the Finals compare to the WCF. I'm sure defense will have a lot to do with it.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Parker +12.31
LeBron +10.06
Durant +6.28
Kobe -4.67
CP3 -7.92

Ultimate self crownage, statistically speaking.





What's happened to the Mookie Crew? Pego is tinfoiling it. hemann is on an Argie level Parker scoff trip. CBF was torn who to root for and is now arm in arm with Sooner Nation and Stoops. Mookie is now so skinny he lost his country strength. Hunter can't find a practice jersey. 4cc went bigtime and forgot about the crew. I lost track of who GTown is posting under these days. Only Rita seems to be holding up after this collapse.

For you to say I was torn who to root for is far and away the biggest low blow you've ever landed on me in the history of me posting here.

I'm not cheering for either finals team, but I don't hate or cheer against either okc or heat. Its like you expect me to hate Durant just because they beat us. Only player in that entire series I hate is Fisher

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Btw timvp you laughed your ass off when I said we could have won one of either game 3 or 4, had this team still head a healthy TJ Ford.
Your numbers and comments pertaining to,Neal show that I could have been right, and you only laughed cuz you think I seriously said that out of UT homerism.

It was a legit comment.

This team's bench could have been better with a real backup PG. the bench failed us, and poor Tony was gassed by the 4th after having to play so many minutes

[DPG21920]

Timvp says a lot of mean things out of anger he doesn't mean, CBF. He didn't mean it. He told me.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Well most of what he said was in the ball park except me being torn between who to cheer for

Heman does hate Parker now
Pego is on full conspiracy mode

[EVAY]

Frankly, I'm rooting for the Thunder in the Finals.

I don't think they will win, but I am rooting for them.

I don't understand how anyone wouldn't prefer to lose to the eventual Champ rather than losing to the eventual runner-up.

Let's face it guys...Miami is forcing the Thunder to miss shots that they never missed against us. We don't play defense for long enough to win a championship anymore, but we are still a more fun team to watch that we were a few years ago.

I'll take it.

[therealtruth]

Frankly, I'm rooting for the Thunder in the Finals.

I don't think they will win, but I am rooting for them.

I don't understand how anyone wouldn't prefer to lose to the eventual Champ rather than losing to the eventual runner-up.

Let's face it guys...Miami is forcing the Thunder to miss shots that they never missed against us. We don't play defense for long enough to win a championship anymore, but we are still a more fun team to watch that we were a few years ago.

I'll take it.

When you have two very good teams go against each other it often comes down to who has enough stamina to outlast the other team. We're definitely at the bottom of the list in the stamina category. Most of our guys didn't even play over 30 mpg. That's why I sometimes think Pop going too soft in the regular season can backfire.

[DMC]

Pop got CotY because the team was playing as well as the team could possibly play, and well above expectations all season and most of the playoffs tbh. We all know they were a well oiled machine, but still limited by obvious things.

[Budkin]

Frankly, I'm rooting for the Thunder in the Finals.

I don't think they will win, but I am rooting for them.

I don't understand how anyone wouldn't prefer to lose to the eventual Champ rather than losing to the eventual runner-up.

Let's face it guys...Miami is forcing the Thunder to miss shots that they never missed against us. We don't play defense for long enough to win a championship anymore, but we are still a more fun team to watch that we were a few years ago.

I'll take it.

In our most painful losses I have usually rooted against the team who beat us, because it makes it a little easier to take the loss (Pistons over Lakers, Heat over Mavs). This year it's rough though because to do that you have to root for LeBron, which just goes against everything I want to be doing.

[EVAY]

In our most painful losses I have usually rooted against the team who beat us, because it makes it a little easier to take the loss (Pistons over Lakers, Heat over Mavs). This year it's rough though because to do that you have to root for LeBron, which just goes against everything I want to be doing.

The only way I could root for LeBron was if he was playing against Kobe/Bynum.

[therealtruth]

The key is the team was playing well as a team who's sum was greater than the value of the individual parts. The way we lost was with Pop over relying on the big 3 + SJax. What stinks is we lost playing as individuals instead of as a team.

[ChumpDumper]

The key is the team was playing well as a team who's sum was greater than the value of the individual parts. The way we lost was with Pop over relying on the big 3 + SJax. What stinks is we lost playing as individuals instead of as a team.Who else should have been relied upon?

[timvp]

For you to say I was torn who to root for is far and away the biggest low blow you've ever landed on me in the history of me posting here.

I'm not cheering for either finals team, but I don't hate or cheer against either okc or heat. Its like you expect me to hate Durant just because they beat us. Only player in that entire series I hate is FisherTbh, someone in the Mookie Crew sent me an unsolicited PM detailing the happenings of the crew. They told me about Mookie getting so skinny he lost his muthle and that you "couldn't bring yourself to root against Durant". If that is untrue, I apologize.

IMO, CBF was a top ten poster this season :toast

[therealtruth]

Who else should have been relied upon?

The team should have believed in the pass and kept moving the ball. Shots would have eventually have fallen maybe with the exception of Bonner. Also guys have to be able to consistently make a pullup jumper to maintain offensive rhythm.

[ChumpDumper]

The team should have believed in the pass and kept moving the ball. Shots would have eventually have fallen maybe with the exception of Bonner. Also guys have to be able to consistently make a pullup jumper to maintain offensive rhythm.Wishful thinking.