Obama invokes executive privilege on F&F documents

[CosmicCowboy]

Wow...guess he plans to stonewall until he can get past the election....I wonder what they are hiding that they are so afraid of getting out?



President Obama has granted an 11th-hour request by Attorney General Eric Holder to exert executive privilege over Fast and Furious documents, a last-minute maneuver that appears unlikely to head off a contempt vote against Holder by Republicans in the House.
The House Oversight and Government Reform Committee is expected to forge ahead Wednesday morning with its meeting on the contempt resolution anyway.
If the vote proceeds, Republicans have more than enough votes on committee to pass the resolution. However, Holder would not be considered held in contempt of Congress unless and until the full House approves the measure.
The move by Holder and Obama to lock down some requested documents only complicates the fight over the botched anti-gunrunning operation between the legislative and executive branches.
After Holder made the request to Obama via letter on Tuesday, Deputy Attorney General James Cole wrote to Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., on Wednesday informing him that the president has granted the request.
"We regret that we have arrived at this point, after the many steps we have taken to address the committee's concerns and to accommodate the committee's legitimate oversight interests regarding Operation Fast and Furious," Cole wrote. "Although we are deeply disappointed that the committee appears intent on proceeding with a contempt vote, the department remains willing to work with the committee to reach a mutually satisfactory resolution of the outstanding issues."
Obama's decision pertains to documents from February 2011 and afterward examining how Justice officials learned about the Fast and Furious probe.
Holder, in his letter to Obama, said those documents pertain to the "deliberative process" on how to respond to congressional and media inquiries.
Wednesday's developments follow a flurry of activity Tuesday, as Holder tried to negotiate a way to avert the contempt proceedings. Issa had earlier indicated a willingness to postpone the vote after Holder indicated a willingness to make compromises and supply some documents in response to House Republicans' subpoena.
But Issa told reporters after a roughly 20-minute meeting with Holder Tuesday that the attorney general instead briefed them on the documents in lieu of delivering them.
Issa told Fox News that Holder didn't provide "anything in writing," and said the family of murdered Border Patrol agent Brian Terry wants the documents as much as he does.
"We want the documents. Brian Terry's family would like the documents that are responsive to how in fact their son was gunned down with weapons that came from lawful dealers but at the ... behest of the Justice Department," Issa told Fox News.
Weapons from the Fast and Furious anti-gunrunning operation were found at Terry's murder scene.
Issa suggested earlier Tuesday that the vote could still be up in the air.
"The deadline will always move to the last minute," said Issa, chairman of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform. "We're not looking to hold people responsible. We're looking for document production."
The failed Fast and Furious operation attempted selling thousands of guns to arms dealers along the U.S.-Mexico border to trace them to leaders of drug cartels. However, many of them showed up in crime scenes.
Congressional investigators have been trying to determine if and when high-level Justice officials knew about problems with the operation.
Holder said Issa rejected what he thought was "an extraordinary offer."
"We offered the documents that we thought would resolve the subpoenas," he said. "The ball is in their court."
The contempt vote in the oversight committee will likely pass considering Republicans outnumber Democrats 22 to 16.
GOP House leadership has given Issa the green light to proceed how he sees fit, sources told Fox News, which suggests the vote would reach the House floor.
Holder called for the Capitol Hill meeting late Monday in a possible attempt to make a deal with Issa and avoid the contempt vote.
Maryland Rep. Elijah Cummings, the top Democrat on the House oversight panel, said he after the meeting he is confident that Justice officials are not attempting a cover-up by withholding documents.
Holder's letter stated the Justice Department "has offered a serious, good faith proposal to bring this matter to an amicable resolution in the form of a briefing based on documents that the committee could retain."
Issa had demanded to see a trove of documents on the controversial Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives operation. He also wants to know who prepared a now-retracted letter from Feb. 4, 2011, in which the department claimed the U.S. did not knowingly help smuggle guns to Mexico, including those found where Terry was killed.
Issa wrote back to Holder later Monday requesting he deliver roughly 1,300 documents pertaining to the Feb. 4 letter.
The letter also stated Holder needed to deliver a description of all the documents he will not produce. Issa said the log is "essential for the committee to determine whether the department has substantially met its obligations" -- a statement he repeated Tuesday after the meeting.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/06/20/house-republicans-tee-up-imminent-contempt-vote-against-holder/#ixzz1yLPMnpDP

[boutons_deux]

It's just dickhead's "Unitary (impregnable fortress) Executive" at work.

Did the Repugs, while in the Exec, really think that door swings only in their favor?

Repugs protect the 1%'s secret "free speech" political donations to "social welfare" PACs. US CoC, etc.

"Free speech" but Human-Americans can't FREELY know who's speaking?

What does the 1% have to hide?

[TeyshaBlue]

lol deflection

[BlairForceDejuan]

hahahahahahahahaha

All you idiots who voted for Obama thinking he was different lmao. lol at this clown country.

[BlairForceDejuan]

It's just dickhead's "Unitary (impregnable fortress) Executive" at work.

Did the Repugs, while in the Exec, really think that door swings only in their favor?

Repugs protect the 1%'s secret "free speech" political donations to "social welfare" PACs. US CoC, etc.

"Free speech" but Human-Americans can't FREELY know who's speaking?

What does the 1% have to hide?

How many times would Ron Paul use executive privvy while President?

[BlairForceDejuan]

non-issue

A United States Federal Law Enforcement Officer just died and shit.

[BlairForceDejuan]

How many people did Nixon kill with watergate.

[clambake]

How many times would Ron Paul use executive privvy while President?

we'll never know.

[BlairForceDejuan]

lol remember when Manny was going to campaign events for this guy.

[clambake]

lol remember when Manny was going to campaign events for this guy.

what about it?

[BlairForceDejuan]

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/22293813.jpg

[clambake]

you didn't vote for him?

[BlairForceDejuan]

08 threw it away on Barr

[clambake]

rosanne?

[BlairForceDejuan]

Bob.

[TeyshaBlue]

Barker?

[coyotes_geek]

Bob.


Barker?

http://mimg.ugo.com/201006/47729/cuts/happy-gilmore-bob-barker_288x288.jpg

http://www.wnd.com/files/2012/02/bob-barker-in-happy-gilmore.jpg

We know he's budget conscious. Appears to be strong on defense. I'll have to give him some thought.

[TeyshaBlue]

Wise choice. Bonus: Rodney Dangerfied as VP!

I know RD's dead. That's an extra bonus.

[coyotes_geek]

RD certainly would be less of an embarrassment that Biden.

[FromWayDowntown]

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2657995&postcount=74

[FromWayDowntown]

Executive privilege discussed on the flip side:

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100977

Go team!

[TeyshaBlue]

Executive privilege discussed on the flip side:

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100977

Go team!

Awesome callback, FWDT.:toast:lol

[coyotes_geek]

Executive privilege discussed on the flip side:

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100977

Go team!

:tu

The potential entertainment value of this thread has just increased dramatically. :lol

[ElNono]

It's a shitty decision, but not unexpected, given the political circus.

Hopefully Issa will formally request a special prosecutor after he's done trying to milk this for political points and we can actually find out what happened. I suspect odds are he won't care past november though.

[ElNono]

Executive privilege discussed on the flip side:

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100977

Go team!

Good bump.

[CosmicCowboy]

:lol

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQEQs6nkynfiv_8coxM6Kvuv-wECzMME4y_ZMLSRTGnAmSvz4Xj

[CosmicCowboy]

It's all about the cover up. Nixon wouldn't have been impeached over Watergate if it hadn't been for the cover up.

[CosmicCowboy]

I see they got their talking points from the White House...The real fast and furious agenda exposed...


But Representative Carolyn Maloney, Democrat of New York, said the investigation had degenerated into a “political witch hunt,” while a fellow Democrat, Representative Gerald E. Connolly of Virginia, called the proceeding a “kangaroo court,” saying it was designed to result in a contempt citation from the start as a way to get at Mr. Obama. They and other Democrats complained that the panel was ignoring its mission of coming up with reforms, like finding ways to strengthen laws to combat gun trafficking along the Southwestern border.

Having an excuse to strengthen gun laws.

[ElNono]

It's all about the election. You could've had a special prosecutor investigating this for at least a year now, but then Issa would have had to stay quiet...

[ElNono]

laws to combat gun trafficking along the Southwestern border


Having an excuse to strengthen gun laws.

:lol read what you want to read
:lol conspiracies
:lol tin foil hat

[CosmicCowboy]

It's all about the election. You could've had a special prosecutor investigating this for at least a year now, but then Issa would have had to stay quiet...

They have been asking for the documents for over a year now.

[CosmicCowboy]

:lol read what you want to read
:lol conspiracies
:lol tin foil hat

It's right there in black and white. They are calling for strengthened gun laws.

[coyotes_geek]

It's all about the cover up. Nixon wouldn't have been impeached over Watergate if it hadn't been for the cover up.

There could be a cover up. Or this could just be Obama wanting to try and look tough, given his history of rolling over on issues. Maybe we'll get to the bottom of it one day, but my gut says the political theater is all that anyone is really interested in.

[CosmicCowboy]

There could be a cover up. Or this could just be Obama wanting to try and look tough, given his history of rolling over on issues. Maybe we'll get to the bottom of it one day, but my gut says the political theater is all that anyone is really interested in.

He doesn't look tough, he looks guilty.

[George Gervin's Afro]

He doesn't look tough, he looks guilty.

to who?

[CosmicCowboy]

to who?

To anyone that is objective. From CNN


In a letter to Issa after the Tuesday meeting, Cole reiterated Holder's position that the documents would show Holder had nothing to hide about his role in Fast and Furious.

If they would prove he had nothing to hide then why won't they release them?

The documents being requested have nothing to do with the original investigation or prosecutions....they concern internal Justice Department communications about the February 4th letter that swore to Congress that no guns had walked...

[TeyshaBlue]

to who?

Not too happy bout this in Baltimore,tbh.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/readersrespond/bs-ed-obama-watergate-20120620,0,2950299.story

[ElNono]

They have been asking for the documents for over a year now.

And they've been handed documents, they're just not pleased with them.

This investigation would obviously have a lot more credibility if the investigation would be conducted by a independent investigator. That's what special prosecutors are for.

Whenever Issa is done milking political points and sending bravado letters (CC'ing them to the media), he should formally request a special prosecutor. We've had one to investigate a blow job in the Oval office. I would think getting one to investigate gun trafficking allegations would be a no brainer.


It's right there in black and white. They are calling for strengthened gun laws.

They're calling to "strengthen laws to combat gun trafficking along the Southwestern border". Sounds like a request to strengthen laws against gun trafficking to me.

[ElNono]

BTW, I'm not saying there's no wrongdoing or that Holder/Barry/this administration is without blame/guilt. IMO, the problem here is that the accusers are far and away from being "independent". They've a lot of political points to gain by stretching this.

[TeyshaBlue]

For the most part, accusers usually are in political matters.

[coyotes_geek]

He doesn't look tough, he looks guilty.

To those who don't like him, sure. But if this is just a political maneuver to look tough (and I'm not saying it is or isn't) then that group of people isn't who he's trying to look tough for.

[CosmicCowboy]

And they've been handed documents, they're just not pleased with them.

This investigation would obviously have a lot more credibility if the investigation would be conducted by a independent investigator. That's what special prosecutors are for.

Whenever Issa is done milking political points and sending bravado letters (CC'ing them to the media), he should formally request a special prosecutor. We've had one to investigate a blow job in the Oval office. I would think getting one to investigate gun trafficking allegations would be a no brainer.



They're calling to "strengthen laws to combat gun trafficking along the Southwestern border". Sounds like a request to strengthen laws against gun trafficking to me.

It's already a felony in the US and Mexico. They aren't talking about adding 5 more year to the potential sentence as a deterrent...:lol

Be intellectually honest...they are talking about restricting trafficking by restricting gun sales.

[ElNono]

For the most part, accusers usually are in political matters.

There's allegedly criminal conduct here... you would think a proper, independent investigation would trump political points...

[TeyshaBlue]

There's allegedly criminal conduct here... you would think a proper, independent investigation would trump political points...

And who is going to request that? The Democratic leadership?

The Republican leadership?

lol

[ElNono]

It's already a felony in the US and Mexico. They aren't talking about adding 5 more year to the potential sentence as a deterrent...:lol

Be intellectually honest...they are talking about restricting gun sales.

Where do you read that?

You're just jumping to conclusions. Not to mention that there's no way anything that has to do with gun control laws passes Congress right now. You can safely remove your tinfoil hat for now :lol

[ElNono]

And who is going to request that? The Democratic leadership?

The Republican leadership?

lol

Well, this committee has the power to request just that, and Issa has hinted towards using that power. As I said earlier, they got one to investigate a blow job in the Oval office, I have a hard time thinking they wouldn't get one to investigate alleged criminal gun trafficking...

The (rhetorical) question is: What's taking so long?

[CosmicCowboy]

Where do you read that?

You're just jumping to conclusions. Not to mention that there's no way anything that has to do with gun control laws passes Congress right now. You can safely remove your tinfoil hat for now :lol

You certainly are gullible. It's not tin foil hat stuff to suggest a connection between F&F and the administrations desire to use Mexican Cartel violence as an excuse to strengthen US gun laws.

[CosmicCowboy]

Well, this committee has the power to request just that, and Issa has hinted towards using that power. As I said earlier, they got one to investigate a blow job in the Oval office, I have a hard time thinking they wouldn't get one to investigate alleged criminal gun trafficking...

The (rhetorical) question is: What's taking so long?

If they had the documents they requested they would know if they needed an independent council or not. If Holder won't give them to congress he wouldn't give them to an independent council either.

[mavs>spurs]

Dude is crooked as fuck even by politician standards

[ElNono]

You certainly are gullible. It's not tin foil hat stuff to make the connection between F&F and the administrations desire to use Mexican Cartel violence as an excuse to strengthen US gun laws.

You've yet to point to any "strengthened gun laws" proposals of any kind that developed through this. So far, it's all in your head.

It's ok, you can breathe, nobody is taking your guns away.

[CosmicCowboy]

And they've been handed documents, they're just not pleased with them.

This investigation would obviously have a lot more credibility if the investigation would be conducted by a independent investigator. That's what special prosecutors are for.

Whenever Issa is done milking political points and sending bravado letters (CC'ing them to the media), he should formally request a special prosecutor. We've had one to investigate a blow job in the Oval office. I would think getting one to investigate gun trafficking allegations would be a no brainer.



They're calling to "strengthen laws to combat gun trafficking along the Southwestern border". Sounds like a request to strengthen laws against gun trafficking to me.

Holder has NOT given them the documents they requested. It seems like everyone but you knows that.

[TeyshaBlue]

6000, out of 80,000 requested is the tally, I believe.

[TeyshaBlue]

Wonder what Kenneth Starr is doing these days?

Btw, his brother Jerry is my Dad's barber.:lol

[ElNono]

If they had the documents they requested they would know if they needed an independent council or not.

Issa was apparently convinced he needed a special prosecutor (http://www.newsmax.com/InsideCover/issa-fast-furious-prosecutor/2011/09/21/id/411790) at least as far back as Sept last year.

What's the holdup?


If Holder won't give them to congress he wouldn't give them to an independent council either.

At which point the "coverup" allegations can actually be taken seriously, since there would be no room for "biased/political" interpretations. Maybe we'll get there once the dog and pony show is over.

[CosmicCowboy]

You've yet to point to any "strengthened gun laws" proposals of any kind that developed through this. So far, it's all in your head.

It's ok, you can breathe, nobody is taking your guns away.

You live under a fucking rock? Holder is on record wanting to reinstate the assault rifle ban.

[ElNono]

Holder has NOT given them the documents they requested. It seems like everyone but you knows that.


6000, out of 80,000 requested is the tally, I believe.

Apparently Teysha knows more than you do.

[CosmicCowboy]

Apparently Teysha knows more than you do.

Apparently we ALL know more than YOU do.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=6960824&page=1#.T-Ih-LW0x8E

The Obama administration will seek to reinstate the assault weapons ban that expired in 2004 during the Bush administration, Attorney General Eric Holder said today.

"As President Obama indicated during the campaign, there are just a few gun-related changes that we would like to make, and among them would be to reinstitute the ban on the sale of assault weapons," Holder told reporters.

Holder said that putting the ban back in place would not only be a positive move by the United States, it would help cut down on the flow of guns going across the border into Mexico, which is struggling with heavy violence among drug cartels along the border.

"I think that will have a positive impact in Mexico, at a minimum." Holder said at a news conference on the arrest of more than 700 people in a drug enforcement crackdown on Mexican drug cartels operating in the U.S.

Mexican government officials have complained that the availability of sophisticated guns from the United States have emboldened drug traffickers to fight over access routes into the U.S.

A State Department travel warning issued Feb. 20, 2009, reflected government concerns about the violence.

"Some recent Mexican army and police confrontations with drug cartels have resembled small-unit combat, with cartels employing automatic weapons and grenades," the warning said. "Large firefights have taken place in many towns and cities across Mexico, but most recently in northern Mexico, including Tijuana, Chihuahua City and Ciudad Juarez."

At the news conference today, Holder described his discussions with his Mexican counterpart about the recent spike in violence.

"I met yesterday with Attorney General Medina Mora of Mexico, and we discussed the unprecedented levels of violence his country is facing because of their enforcement efforts," he said.

Holder declined to offer any time frame for the reimplementation of the assault weapons ban, however.

"It's something, as I said, that the president talked about during the campaign," he said. "There are obviously a number of things that are -- that have been taking up a substantial amount of his time, and so, I'm not sure exactly what the sequencing will be."

In a brief interview with ABC News, Wayne LaPierre, president of the National Rifle Association, said, "I think there are a lot of Democrats on Capitol Hill cringing at Eric Holder's comments right now."

During his confirmation hearing, Holder told the Senate Judiciary Committee about other gun control measures the Obama administration may consider.

"I think closing the gun show loophole, the banning of cop-killer bullets and I also think that making the assault weapons ban permanent, would be something that would be permitted under Heller," Holder said, referring to the Supreme Court ruling in Washington, D.C. v. Heller, which asserted the Second Amendment as an individual's right to own a weapon.

The Assault Weapons Ban signed into law by President Clinton in 1994 banned 19 types of semi-automatic military-style guns and ammunition clips with more than 10 rounds.

"A semi-automatic is a quintessential self-defense firearm owned by American citizens in this country," LaPierre said. "I think it is clearly covered under Heller and it's clearly, I think, protected by the Constitution."

[ElNono]

You live under a fucking rock? Holder is on record wanting to reinstate the assault rifle ban.

I'll take that as "No, I don't know any strengthened gun laws proposals of any kind that developed through this. It's all in my head". :lol

There's a lot of supporters of strengthened gun control in Congress. Bottom line is Holder can't do anything without a law. And even in the event he has control of Congress (which he doesn't), he wouldn't need to smuggle guns to get that done.

It's ok, your guns are not going anywhere.

[ElNono]

Apparently we ALL know more than you do.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=6960824&page=1#.T-Ih-LW0x8E

So Holder did deliver some documents to the commission, but not all the ones the commission wanted :lol

Why wasn't the Assault Weapon ban re-instituted when the Dems controlled Congress too? And you're stressing the ban can come back now that the GOP runs the House? :lol

[ElNono]

ZOMG! Some Dems are for gun control! Did you just found that out? :lmao

[TeyshaBlue]

So Holder did deliver some documents to the commission, but not all the ones the commission wanted :lol


7.5% of the requested documents is hardly a compelling response tbh.

[CosmicCowboy]

So Holder did deliver some documents to the commission, but not all the ones the commission wanted :lol

Why wasn't the Assault Weapon ban re-instituted when the Dems controlled Congress too? And you're stressing the ban can come back now that the GOP runs the House? :lol

dumbass

you made the claim that no one had proposed strengthening gun laws and I just handed you your ass.

I think Obama miscalculated on the gun law thing...he didn't want to rile people up going into the 2010 elections and figured he could get it done later...he wasn't planning on losing congress.

[mavs>spurs]

ZOMG! Some Dems are for gun control! Did you just found that out? :lmao

this is the problem with letting in so many foreigners, you didn't grow up american and don't value your right to own a firearm nor understand the implicatons. a country full of voters like you is dangerous.

[TeyshaBlue]

this is the problem with letting in so many foreigners, you didn't grow up american and don't value your right to own a firearm nor understand the implicatons. a country full of voters like you is dangerous.

The most retarded fucking post I've read. Congrats.

[ElNono]

7.5% of the requested documents is hardly a compelling response tbh.

The Congressional commission that subpoenaed Karl Rove was a "kangaroo court" (per red team), but this one that has shown no interest in actually launching an independent investigation despite claiming they have enough to do so should be considered "fair", "balanced" or anything like that? :lol

Of course they're not going to get more documents when then turn around and milk the documents for political points.

[TeyshaBlue]

@ UTA
I think you beat out Wild Cobra and boutons. That takes determination and effort.

[TeyshaBlue]

The Congressional commission that subpoenaed Karl Rove was a "kangaroo court" (per red team), but this one that has shown no interest in actually launching an independent investigation despite claiming they have enough to do so should be considered "fair", "balanced" or anything like that? :lol

Of course they're not going to get more documents when then turn around and milk the documents for political points.

Notice I'm not making any reference to anything but the present. Note that I was not supporting the Rove fiasco in FWDT's thread. Not sure why you need to pull context into this when it's not really required.

When a congressional oversight committee requests documents, which is certainly within their purview, documents need to be presented regardless of whether or not you're wearing red or blue.

[ElNono]

dumbass

you made the claim that no one had proposed strengthening gun laws and I just handed you your ass.

dumbass, you posted an article from 2009. Dems wanting all sorts of gun control isn't new. Again, what strengthening gun laws proposals were made due to this? Why didn't he get that passed in 2009?


I think Obama miscalculated on the gun law thing...he didn't want to rile people up going into the 2010 elections and figured he could get it done later...he wasn't planning on losing congress.

If Barry doesn't control Congress, what are you stressing about??? :lmao

[Yonivore]

You've yet to point to any "strengthened gun laws" proposals of any kind that developed through this. So far, it's all in your head.

It's ok, you can breathe, nobody is taking your guns away.
Ever had to abandon a plan because the wheels fell off? Agent Terry's murder was the wheels flying off.

That's why Issa's committee is interested in all communications from the time of the murder forward.

Anyone remember Obama standing in El Paso a couple of years ago and grossly overstating the number of US weapons responsible for Mexican crimes? Some have suggested that speech and Operation F&F were precursors to a more aggressive gun control policy initiative.

Agent Terry getting himself murdered drew unwanted attention to the administration's gun-running activities. They've stonewalled a legitimate Congressional committee ever since.

I think Chuck Grassley asked the most revealing question of the day - about five minutes after Obama asserted Executive Privilege. If the White House wasn't involved and had no knowledge of Fast and Furious, over what is he asserting privilege?

Time for the age-old question, what did the President know and when did he know it?

[ElNono]

Notice I'm not making any reference to anything but the present. Note that I was not supporting the Rove fiasco in FWDT's thread. Not sure why you need to pull context into this when it's not really required.

I'm pulling context because the OP has played the blue card on this topic before quite at will, when I pointed out that this is way past blue/red. I wasn't alluding to anything specific you said.


When a congressional oversight committee requests documents, which is certainly within their purview, documents need to be presented regardless of whether or not you're wearing red or blue.

I don't disagree with this, and thus the reason I said it's a shitty decision. But we also need to recognize that political games are being played here, especially on an election year.

[ElNono]

this is the problem with letting in so many foreigners, you didn't grow up american and don't value your right to own a firearm nor understand the implicatons. a country full of voters like you is dangerous.

Why? I'm not for gun control.

[TeyshaBlue]

I'm pulling context because the OP has played the blue card on this topic before quite at will, when I pointed out that this is way past blue/red. I wasn't alluding to anything specific you said.



I don't disagree with this, and thus the reason I said it's a shitty decision. But we also need to recognize that political games are being played here, especially on an election year.

Political games are irrelevant. What is relevant is that documents were requested and they were not delivered then hidden behind a cloak of executive privilege.

[ElNono]

Ever had to abandon a plan because the wheels fell off? Agent Terry's murder was the wheels flying off.

:blah:blah:blah:blah:blah:blah:blah:blah



Cool story. Unfortunately this investigation will be clouded with political gamesmanship until Issa decides that the truth is more important than his party, and calls for a special prosecutor.

[TeyshaBlue]

Cool story. Unfortunately this investigation will be clouded with political gamesmanship until Issa decides that the truth is more important than his party, and calls for a special prosecutor.

Documents requested. Holder did not comply. Not very cloudy.

[CosmicCowboy]

dumbass, you posted an article from 2009. Dems wanting all sorts of gun control isn't new. Again, what strengthening gun laws proposals were made due to this? Why didn't he get that passed in 2009?



If Barry doesn't control Congress, what are you stressing about??? :lmao

I assume you realize that this investigation concerns things that the justice department was doing in 2009? The article was totally appropriate and even gives context to my assertion that the administration intentionally let guns walk so they would be used to commit crimes in Mexico and justify reintroducing the assault rifle ban.

In Holders own words, the Mexican gun violence was adequate reason to reimpose the ban.

Like Yonivore said, When agent Terry got killed and it leaked that one of their walked guns was there it blew their plan up.

The only reason there was a congressional inquiry is that the mortified lower level ATF agents went directly to congress and spilled their guts on the gun walking.

Even after that Holder tried to obstruct the congressional investigation.

On February 4th, 2011 Holder was still claiming (and I quote)

"The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives makes every effort to interdict weapons that have been purchased illegally and prevent their transportation to Mexico."

Even a smurf like you should know THAT was a blatant lie.

[ElNono]

Political games are irrelevant. What is relevant is that documents were requested and they were not delivered then hidden behind a cloak of executive privilege.

I agree with this, but I'm also a realist. In an ideal world, Congress would be run by the very best, putting nation over party or personal interests.

But the Congress of the real world leaves a lot to be desired. Political games are the norm, not the exception, so it isn't irrelevant.

This is a serious matter. There's alleged criminal conduct here. But they're still playing political games (both sides) with it. It's the pervasive political bullshit we have these days. And as usual you and me are an afterthought.

[TeyshaBlue]

That's my point. Political motivations provide the ignition for an investigation in the modern political arena. It's not an ideal world. Saying it's political gamesmenship is irrelevant when it's the only trigger available.

[TeyshaBlue]

in other words, duh!:lol

[ElNono]

Documents requested. Holder did not comply. Not very cloudy.

The documents are being requested by a commission with a partisan majority. Of course it's cloudy.

[TeyshaBlue]

It's a commission first. Everything after that is subjective.

[ElNono]

That's my point. Political motivations provide the ignition for an investigation in the modern political arena. It's not an ideal world. Saying it's political gamesmenship is irrelevant when it's the only trigger available.

But it isn't the only solution. Special prosecution was indeed created to remove the cloud of partisanship from instances like this.

[TeyshaBlue]

But it isn't the only solution. Special prosecution was indeed created to remove the cloud of partisanship from instances like this.

Not happening. No interest on either side to kick it off.

[TeyshaBlue]

And the claims of Starr's bias flew fast and furious during the Whitewater investigation.

F&F. I crack myself up.:lol

[ElNono]

I assume you realize that this investigation concerns things that the justice department was doing in 2009? The article was totally appropriate and even gives context to my assertion that the administration intentionally let guns walk so they would be used to commit crimes in Mexico and justify reintroducing the assault rifle ban.

The administration had control of Congress in 2009. If they wanted to re-instate the assault weapon ban, all they had to do was present a bill. No "intentional gun walk" was necessary. Your conspiracy theory is just in your head, and what's more, it even makes less sense that the administration would double-down on it after losing control of Congress.

But hey, if paranoia is your thing, knock yourself out.

[ElNono]

Not happening. No interest on either side to kick it off.

so you agree it's a political circus, when it should be more serious... :lol


And the claims of Starr's bias flew fast and furious during the Whitewater investigation.

F&F. I crack myself up.:lol

Starr had clear ties with the VRWC and the Koch brothers!!!!

/boutons

[CosmicCowboy]

The administration had control of Congress in 2009. If they wanted to re-instate the assault weapon ban, all they had to do was present a bill. No "intentional gun walk" was necessary. Your conspiracy theory is just in your head, and what's more, it even makes less sense that the administration would double-down on it after losing control of Congress.

But hey, if paranoia is your thing, knock yourself out.

dumbass

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-57338546-10391695/documents-atf-used-fast-and-furious-to-make-the-case-for-gun-regulations/

Documents obtained by CBS News show that the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) discussed using their covert operation "Fast and Furious" to argue for controversial new rules about gun sales.

PICTURES: ATF "Gunwalking" scandal timeline
In Fast and Furious, ATF secretly encouraged gun dealers to sell to suspected traffickers for Mexican drug cartels to go after the "big fish." But ATF whistleblowers told CBS News and Congress it was a dangerous practice called "gunwalking," and it put thousands of weapons on the street. Many were used in violent crimes in Mexico. Two were found at the murder scene of a U.S. Border Patrol agent.

ATF officials didn't intend to publicly disclose their own role in letting Mexican cartels obtain the weapons, but emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called "Demand Letter 3". That would require some U.S. gun shops to report the sale of multiple rifles or "long guns." Demand Letter 3 was so named because it would be the third ATF program demanding gun dealers report tracing information.

On July 14, 2010 after ATF headquarters in Washington D.C. received an update on Fast and Furious, ATF Field Ops Assistant Director Mark Chait emailed Bill Newell, ATF's Phoenix Special Agent in Charge of Fast and Furious:

"Bill - can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same (licensed gun dealer) and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks."

More Fast and Furious coverage:
Memos contradict Holder on Fast and Furious
Agent: I was ordered to let guns "walk" into Mexico
Gunwalking scandal uncovered at ATF
On Jan. 4, 2011, as ATF prepared a press conference to announce arrests in Fast and Furious, Newell saw it as "(A)nother time to address Multiple Sale on Long Guns issue." And a day after the press conference, Chait emailed Newell: "Bill--well done yesterday... (I)n light of our request for Demand letter 3, this case could be a strong supporting factor if we can determine how many multiple sales of long guns occurred during the course of this case."

This revelation angers gun rights advocates. Larry Keane, a spokesman for National Shooting Sports Foundation, a gun industry trade group, calls the discussion of Fast and Furious to argue for Demand Letter 3 "disappointing and ironic." Keane says it's "deeply troubling" if sales made by gun dealers "voluntarily cooperating with ATF's flawed 'Operation Fast & Furious' were going to be used by some individuals within ATF to justify imposing a multiple sales reporting requirement for rifles."

The Gun Dealers' Quandary

Several gun dealers who cooperated with ATF told CBS News and Congressional investigators they only went through with suspicious sales because ATF asked them to.

Sometimes it was against the gun dealer's own best judgment.

Read the email

In April, 2010 a licensed gun dealer cooperating with ATF was increasingly concerned about selling so many guns. "We just want to make sure we are cooperating with ATF and that we are not viewed as selling to the bad guys," writes the gun dealer to ATF Phoenix officials, "(W)e were hoping to put together something like a letter of understanding to alleviate concerns of some type of recourse against us down the road for selling these items."

Read the email

ATF's group supervisor on Fast and Furious David Voth assures the gun dealer there's nothing to worry about. "We (ATF) are continually monitoring these suspects using a variety of investigative techniques which I cannot go into detail."

Two months later, the same gun dealer grew more agitated.

"I wanted to make sure that none of the firearms that were sold per our conversation with you and various ATF agents could or would ever end up south of the border or in the hands of the bad guys. I guess I am looking for a bit of reassurance that the guns are not getting south or in the wrong hands...I want to help ATF with its investigation but not at the risk of agents (sic) safety because I have some very close friends that are US Border Patrol agents in southern AZ as well as my concern for all the agents (sic) safety that protect our country."

"It's like ATF created or added to the problem so they could be the solution to it and pat themselves on the back," says one law enforcement source familiar with the facts. "It's a circular way of thinking."

The Justice Department and ATF declined to comment. ATF officials mentioned in this report did not respond to requests from CBS News to speak with them.

The "Demand Letter 3" Debate

The two sides in the gun debate have long clashed over whether gun dealers should have to report multiple rifle sales. On one side, ATF officials argue that a large number of semi-automatic, high-caliber rifles from the U.S. are being used by violent cartels in Mexico. They believe more reporting requirements would help ATF crack down. On the other side, gun rights advocates say that's unconstitutional, and would not make a difference in Mexican cartel crimes.

Two earlier Demand Letters were initiated in 2000 and affected a relatively small number of gun shops. Demand Letter 3 was to be much more sweeping, affecting 8,500 firearms dealers in four southwest border states: Arizona, California, New Mexico and Texas. ATF chose those states because they "have a significant number of crime guns traced back to them from Mexico." The reporting requirements were to apply if a gun dealer sells two or more long guns to a single person within five business days, and only if the guns are semi-automatic, greater than .22 caliber and can be fitted with a detachable magazine.

On April 25, 2011, ATF announced plans to implement Demand Letter 3. The National Shooting Sports Foundation is suing the ATF to stop the new rules. It calls the regulation an illegal attempt to enforce a law Congress never passed. ATF counters that it has reasonably targeted guns used most often to "commit violent crimes in Mexico, especially by drug gangs."


Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, is investigating Fast and Furious, as well as the alleged use of the case to advance gun regulations. "There's plenty of evidence showing that this administration planned to use the tragedies of Fast and Furious as rationale to further their goals of a long gun reporting requirement. But, we've learned from our investigation that reporting multiple long gun sales would do nothing to stop the flow of firearms to known straw purchasers because many Federal Firearms Dealers are already voluntarily reporting suspicious transactions. It's pretty clear that the problem isn't lack of burdensome reporting requirements."

On July 12, 2011, Sen. Grassley and Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., wrote Attorney General Eric Holder, whose Justice Department oversees ATF. They asked Holder whether officials in his agency discussed how "Fast and Furious could be used to justify additional regulatory authorities." So far, they have not received a response. CBS News asked the Justice Department for comment and context on ATF emails about Fast and Furious and Demand Letter 3, but officials declined to speak with us.

"In light of the evidence, the Justice Department's refusal to answer questions about the role Operation Fast and Furious was supposed to play in advancing new firearms regulations is simply unacceptable," Rep. Issa told CBS News.

[TeyshaBlue]

so you agree it's a political circus, when it should be more serious... :lol
I'm saying that with no operational difference between politically motivated prosecution and and independent council, you're left with today's reality. Political motivation is the igniter. Not the wish for a non-partisan council.



Starr had clear ties with the VRWC and the Koch brothers!!!!

/boutons

I'll just report myself to the nearest field office now.:depressed

[ElNono]

dumbass

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-57338546-10391695/documents-atf-used-fast-and-furious-to-make-the-case-for-gun-regulations/

:lol allegations

Where are the proposals CC? Where's the bill to strengthen gun laws? I'm waiting for the smoking gun...

:lol conspiracies
:lol tin foil hat

[ElNono]

I'm saying that with no operational difference between politically motivated prosecution and and independent council, you're left with today's reality. Political motivation is the igniter. Not the wish for a non-partisan council.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. While I do expect the usual partisan cheerleaders to paint/clear the prosecution as they see fit, I do think it gives the investigation more legitimacy, especially because it's hard to believe somebody would be more incompetent than what we have for Congress right now.

[Wild Cobra]

Looks like this illegal gun running is at the highest level after all. makes sense, with Obama's Chicago connections. He probably is involved with organized crime. Who else could elevate a Community Organizer to president in a few short years.

[ElNono]

I demand to see the transcript and the video!

lol standards
lol drunk

[BlairForceDejuan]

BTW, I'm not saying there's no wrongdoing or that Holder/Barry/this administration is without blame/guilt. IMO, the problem here is that the accusers are far and away from being "independent". They've a lot of political points to gain by stretching this.

lol son

Barry/Holder is ALL the wrongdoing. LOL on continuing to cry about Issa.

[BlairForceDejuan]

Just face it. You all will continue caring about and being so serious about politics like any of your opinions or the mere act of even keeping up with it matter when all you do is vote in the same fine gentlemen year after year.

All you do is continue to feed the garbage pile and cry about the side that's facing you lolololol.

[ElNono]

lol son

Barry/Holder is ALL the wrongdoing. LOL on continuing to cry about Issa.

I'm on the record saying Holder is lying and Barry pulling this shit is terrible.

:lol Issa holding up the investigation
:lol circus
:lol go red team

[ElNono]

Just face it. You all will continue caring about and being so serious about politics like any of your opinions or the mere act of even keeping up with it matter when all you do is vote in the same fine gentlemen year after year.

Just face it, you do the exact same shit :lmao

At least until November I can say with a straight face I never voted for these clowns. :lol

[clambake]

Looks like this illegal gun running is at the highest level after all. makes sense, with Obama's Chicago connections. He probably is involved with organized crime. Who else could elevate a Community Organizer to president in a few short years.

:lmao

[TeyshaBlue]

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. While I do expect the usual partisan cheerleaders to paint/clear the prosecution as they see fit, I do think it gives the investigation more legitimacy, especially because it's hard to believe somebody would be more incompetent than what we have for Congress right now.

You may have a point there.:toast:lol

[CosmicCowboy]

:lol allegations

Where are the proposals CC? Where's the bill to strengthen gun laws? I'm waiting for the smoking gun...

:lol conspiracies
:lol tin foil hat

I understand english is your second language but a little reading comprehension wouldn't hurt you.


ATF officials didn't intend to publicly disclose their own role in letting Mexican cartels obtain the weapons, but emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called "Demand Letter 3". That would require some U.S. gun shops to report the sale of multiple rifles or "long guns." Demand Letter 3 was so named because it would be the third ATF program demanding gun dealers report tracing information.

[Wild Cobra]

I demand to see the transcript and the video!

lol standards
lol drunk
I'm not drunk that often. If it pleases you to always say that in your remarks, then what does that say of your character?

[ElNono]

I'm not drunk that often. If it pleases you to always say that in your remarks, then what does that say of your character?


I don't know. Too many possibilities without first hand knowledge.

I would contend that the way they are pursuing this, it amounts to actions required by the judicial branch. Otherwise they have no right to demand the executive branch comply. This is in my view, optional by Rove to comply with.

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

:lol drunk already in 2008

[clambake]

I'm not drunk that often. If it pleases you to always say that in your remarks, then what does that say of your character?

hey :nope we didn't pay good money to see you turn into a drunk.

[Wild Cobra]

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

:lol drunk already in 2008

Whatever.

What specific topic was that on? Yes, it had to do with executive privilege I think, but this is a very dangerous topic for Obama to invoke this on. The public on both sides wants to see someone roast for this, not just one side.

[mavs>spurs]

Why? I'm not for gun control.

you're one of few latinos who don't vote democrat

[ElNono]

I understand english is your second language but a little reading comprehension wouldn't hurt you.

I read it all... including the part you quoted. But it's all allegations. What/where is "Demand Letter 3"? Why no gun strengthening proposal ever came from it?

I asked you in page 2 (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5986232&postcount=50) to show what gun strengthening proposal came out of this... we're on page 4 and counting and I'm still waiting...

There's no bill, no proposal. It's all in your head.

[CosmicCowboy]

you're one of few latinos who don't vote democrat

This guy is definitely gung ho blue team.

[clambake]

you're one of few latinos who don't vote democrat

:lol

[clambake]

This guy is definitely gung ho blue team.

is that a problem for red team?

[ElNono]

you're one of few latinos who don't vote democrat

I have never been able to vote yet (until november), but as I pointed our in another thread, I can't willingly vote for the current administration (or romney for that matter). It's beyond gun control.

[ElNono]

This guy is definitely gung ho blue team.

Look at it this way, you won't have to cancel out my vote. I'm not voting for Barry. I rather not vote.

[CosmicCowboy]

I read it all... including the part you quoted. But it's all allegations. What/where is "Demand Letter 3"? Why no gun strengthening proposal ever came from it?

I asked you in page 2 (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5986232&postcount=50) to show what gun strengthening proposal came out of this... we're on page 4 and counting and I'm still waiting...

There's no bill, no proposal. It's all in your head.

Because Agent Terry got killed with one of the walked guns and the ATF agents ratted out Fast and Furious to congress...

DUHHHHHH!!!!

How gotdamn stubborn and blind can you be?

[ElNono]

Whatever.

What specific topic was that on? Yes, it had to do with executive privilege I think, but this is a very dangerous topic for Obama to invoke this on. The public on both sides wants to see someone roast for this, not just one side.

:lmao

[Wild Cobra]

I have never been able to vote yet (until november), but as I pointed our in another thread, I can't willingly vote for the current administration (or romney for that matter). It's beyond gun control.
You going to make a point and spoil you vote with someone else?

I often check the empty box and write in "none of the above." I think more people need to do that.

[clambake]

Because Agent Terry got killed with one of the walked guns and the ATF agents ratted out Fast and Furious to congress...

DUHHHHHH!!!!

How gotdamn stubborn and blind can you be?

why didn't atf rat them out before that?

[Wild Cobra]

:lmao
Why is it so hard to have a discussion with you?

Did Bush invoke executive privilege over something that would hid the truth behind something that was clearly illegal? Are you referring the Valarie Plame Blame Game?

[Wild Cobra]

why didn't atf rat them out before that?
Just a guess, but there is usually enough "compartmentalization" that very, very few, have a complete enough understanding what is going on.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Issa wrote back to Holder later Monday requesting he deliver roughly 1,300 documents pertaining to the Feb. 4 letter.


lol

not a fishing expedition..not at all... just trying to get the facts..


sincerely,

the crowd who still doesn't want to get to the bottom of we we had to go war based on bad info... which caused 5,000 deaths..

not a partisan which hunt at all..

[ElNono]

Because Agent Terry got killed with one of the walked guns and the ATF agents ratted out Fast and Furious to congress...

So because Agent Terry got killed after Holder and this administration had full capability of re-instating the Assault weapon ban, they wouldn't put up a gun law strengthening bill? After losing Congress in 2010 they never had a chance. They still don't.


How gotdamn stubborn and blind can you be?

You're starting to sound like cosmored, tbh.

I'm a reasonable guy, CC. I do think something happened in F&F as far as either negligence or criminal conduct. We don't even know that right now to go assessing ulterior motives. I just can't agree you can make that connection right now.

[ElNono]

You going to make a point and spoil you vote with someone else?

I often check the empty box and write in "none of the above." I think more people need to do that.

I don't know yet. I know it won't be Barry or Romney. I might not show up at all.

[ElNono]

Why is it so hard to have a discussion with you?

Did Bush invoke executive privilege over something that would hid the truth behind something that was clearly illegal? Are you referring the Valarie Plame Blame Game?

:lmao

[Wild Cobra]

I don't know yet. I know it won't be Barry or Romney. I might not show up at all.
You should at least vote for local county and state issues.

[mavs>spurs]

I don't know yet. I know it won't be Barry or Romney. I might not show up at all.

b-b-b-but barry was supposed to get your vote when he breathed life into those poor 800,000 illegals bow down and worship him :cry

[Wild Cobra]

b-b-b-but barry was supposed to get your vote when he breathed life into those poor 800,000 illegals bow down and worship him :cry
That would be a good new thread if ElNono wants to participate.

What is ElNono's perspective on catering to illegals?

[clambake]

That would be a good new thread if ElNono wants to participate.

What is ElNono's perspective on catering to illegals?

you said you wanted more tax payers.

what happened?

[ElNono]

You should at least vote for local county and state issues.

Yeah, I gotta get on with that. I'm just getting acquainted with local politics, tbh.


b-b-b-but barry was supposed to get your vote when he breathed life into those poor 800,000 illegals bow down and worship him :cry

I don't particularly like illegal aliens. Stated so many times. That said I don't necessarily disagree that these kids that didn't immigrate on their own volition should be something to be addressed along with proper reform and border control. I just can't condone this electoral "policy change".

[ElNono]

That would be a good new thread if ElNono wants to participate.

The thread is already here:
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200004


What is ElNono's perspective on catering to illegals?


Oh, and BTW, I completely abhor this kind of election-based bullshit. As a former legal alien, who always did everything legally, it's fucking bullshit.

[Wild Cobra]

Yes, I remember that. One of the things I do appreciate about you. Just wish more people would stop wanting illegal workers.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Which hunt?

[mavs>spurs]

I hope Holder goes down and does jail time, and Obama is also investigated for crimes committed as president post-ousting come February.

everybody knows that it's the DEA, FBI, etc bringing the drugs in, but shame on you for getting caught.

[ElNono]

I hope Holder goes down and does jail time, and Obama is also investigated for crimes committed as president post-ousting come February.

everybody knows that it's the DEA, FBI, etc bringing the drugs in, but shame on you for getting caught.

Don't hold your breath on that...

BTW, since you were talking about South America countries, I just heard Uruguay is close to depenalize cannabis for personal consumption.

[mavs>spurs]

every country on earth should follow suit, i don't smoke but i dont give a shit if you do and i'd like to see the cartels money source go away

[CosmicCowboy]

I have always said the easiest way to end all the bullshit with the cartels would be for the US to legalize pot....like you said...take their cash cow away.

[mavs>spurs]

It's not that easy..they have already branched into Africa and are using failed states as a hub into Europe. The shit needs to be legalized worldwide.

[baseline bum]

Legalising weed isn't enough; you gotta legalise coke and heroin too if you want to kill the black market drug trade.

[Yonivore]

Cool story. Unfortunately this investigation will be clouded with political gamesmanship until Issa decides that the truth is more important than his party, and calls for a special prosecutor.
In what "political gamesmanship" has Issa engaged?

He is the Chair of a legitimate Congressional Committee charged with exactly what he's doing -- overseeing the activities of the Justice Department.

Is it political that the ATFE Agency urged gun stores in the Southwest United States to allow straw purchases of large numbers of assault weapons? No.

Is it political that the ICE Agency allowed those guns to be carried across an international border with Mexico unchallenged and un-tracked? No.

Is it political that those guns were then used by vicious drug cartels to murder innocent Mexican nationals by the hundreds and one Border Patrol Agent? No.

Is it political for a legitimate Congressional Committee to want answers on how such a fiasco occurred? No.

Is it political for that Committee to demand all communications, related to the operation, in an effort to discern the truth? No.

Now, is it political for the Committee vote on strict party lines on a citation holding Eric Holder in contempt of Congress for failing to produce the requested communications? Yes but, which party is being the strict partisan?

If you conclude Fast and Furious is an activity over which Issa's Committee has a legitimate interest in investigating and, further, you conclude the Attorney General has an obligation to provide the investigating committee whatever materials -- related to the activity -- that are requested; then, I can't see how you can conclude anything other than the Democrats on the Committee are the ones playing politics.

I'll be interested to see how many Democrats vote against the Contempt Citation in the full House. Can we stipulate now that if there are more Democrats voting to cite Holder for Contempt of Congress than there are Republicans voting against the citation, it is a bi-partisan effort in which the Democrats are playing party politics?

Is it political that a White House which said it knew nothing about the Fast and Furious fiasco and only learned about it through news reports would now invoke Executive Privilege in an effort to shield the Attorney General from having to produce materials which, if the President is to be believed, enjoy no such privilege? Yes. I has to be political, nothing else explains it...except, of course, the desire of the President not to be caught in the act of covering up a crime by his Attorney General -- and others within his administration.

By the way, I'm all for a special prosecutor and I think one's coming but, first, let's agree the Attorney General has a constitutional obligation to produce 100% of the materials requested by the Committee duly authorized to investigate Fast & Furious, shall we?

[Yonivore]

Look at it this way, you won't have to cancel out my vote. I'm not voting for Barry. I rather not vote.
Thank God.

[Yonivore]

So because Agent Terry got killed after Holder and this administration had full capability of re-instating the Assault weapon ban, they wouldn't put up a gun law strengthening bill? After losing Congress in 2010 they never had a chance. They still don't.
If Agent Terry hadn't been killed, the U. S. weapons showing up at Mexican crime scenes would have been a good pretext for re-instituting the assault weapons ban.

I believe Holder as much as said so.


You're starting to sound like cosmored, tbh.

I'm a reasonable guy, CC. I do think something happened in F&F as far as either negligence or criminal conduct. We don't even know that right now to go assessing ulterior motives. I just can't agree you can make that connection right now.
Then you should be in favor of the Justice Department turning over every shred of material even remotely related to a U. S. Government Program that resulted in the deaths of hundreds of Mexican nationals and one U. S. Border Patrol Agent. Every. single. piece. of. material.

You should also be in favor of holding an Attorney General in contempt of Congress who fails to be immediately forthcoming.

[ElNono]

In what "political gamesmanship" has Issa engaged?

If the House committee cites Holder for criminal contempt, it would open a process that requires the House speaker to schedule a floor vote. If passed by the full House, the matter would then move to the U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia, Ronald C. Machen Jr., who is an employee of the Justice Department.

:lol it's a dog and pony show. If Issa wanted to get to the truth, he would've requested a special prosecutor a long time ago, when it was obvious this wasn't going anywhere with the elections coming up. But Issa isn't interested in the truth, he wants to score his political points, and it's probably pretty annoying to him nobody really cares... :lol

[ElNono]

If Agent Terry hadn't been killed, the U. S. weapons showing up at Mexican crime scenes would have been a good pretext for re-instituting the assault weapons ban.

Opinion.


I believe Holder as much as said so.

Holder said he would like re-instituting the assault weapons ban when Congress was run by Democrats. He didn't need weapons to show up anywhere to present such a bill to Congress. Apparently, he didn't feel strongly enough about it to do so.


Then you should be in favor of the Justice Department turning over every shred of material even remotely related to a U. S. Government Program that resulted in the deaths of hundreds of Mexican nationals and one U. S. Border Patrol Agent. Every. single. piece. of. material.

I never said I oppose the Justice Department turning over the papers... I simply said I understand why they don't do it, considering who's asking. This could've all been resolved a while ago should Issa had the balls to actually put the nation over his party. We're still waiting.


You should also be in favor of holding an Attorney General in contempt of Congress who fails to be immediately forthcoming.

I said Holder lied. Do I need to add anything else? The whole 'contempt' dog and pony show is just that, and unfortunately will delay the actual independent investigation that could've started a long time ago. We'll wait I guess.

[Yonivore]

If the House committee cites Holder for criminal contempt, it would open a process that requires the House speaker to schedule a floor vote. If passed by the full House, the matter would then move to the U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia, Ronald C. Machen Jr., who is an employee of the Justice Department.
I don't know Ronald C. Machen, Jr. or his politics. I would expect Mr. Machen to do his job. Are you suggesting he's in the bag for his boss? I think you need to learn the difference between political and career employees.


:lol it's a dog and pony show. If Issa wanted to get to the truth, he would've requested a special prosecutor a long time ago, when it was obvious this wasn't going anywhere with the elections coming up. But Issa isn't interested in the truth, he wants to score his political points, and it's probably pretty annoying to him nobody really cares... :lol
I think Issa is following the established process. I also suspect that if he believes the process breaks down -- at Machen's stop or elsewhere -- he'll take it to the next lever which is probably requesting a special prosecutor.

If you want an example of a political dog and pony show, look no further than those bunch of Congress Idiots that held a mock impeachment of President Bush in the basement of the House. Or, since you bring up special prosecutors, that idiot who even after learning -- very early in his assignment -- that it was Richard Armitage that leaked Valerie Plame's name to Bob Novak, went about, like a bull in a china shop, rambling through the Bush Administration until he was able to prosecute Cheney's Chief of Staff for having a bad memory. THAT was a political witch hunt.

What do you have against the legitimate function of Congressional oversight?

Fast and Furious is exactly the type of issue oversight Committees are designed to sort out.

Perhaps you should read up on the Saturday Night Massacre or, better yet, look at how Kenneth Starr was demonized, before you think a special prosecutor is the way to go.

[ElNono]

I don't know Ronald C. Machen, Jr. or his politics. I would expect Mr. Machen to do his job. Are you suggesting he's in the bag for his boss? I think you need to learn the difference between political and career employees.

Ronald C. Machen Jr.
United States Attorney Ronald C. Machen Jr.

Ronald C. Machen Jr. was nominated to serve as United States Attorney for the District of Columbia by President Barack Obama on December 24, 2009. Mr. Machen’s appointment was confirmed by the United States Senate on February 11, 2010.

http://www.justice.gov/usao/dc/images/USADC_Machen.jpg

What do you think Yoni?


I think Issa is following the established process. I also suspect that if he believes the process breaks down -- at Machen's stop or elsewhere -- he'll take it to the next lever which is probably requesting a special prosecutor.

If the process wasn't already broken (debatable), the announcement that the documents are now under executive privilege basically make the "contempt" vote irrelevant, and the process irremediably broken. But I'm sure Issa will love the televised dog and pony show.

[Yonivore]

Opinion.
Not really...


Holder said he would like re-instituting the assault weapons ban when Congress was run by Democrats. He didn't need weapons to show up anywhere to present such a bill to Congress. Apparently, he didn't feel strongly enough about it to do so.
It would be a lot easier to sell if there were a reason...

Obama to Seek New Assault Weapons Ban (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=6960824&page=1#.T-JpaBdYsyQ)


Holder said that putting the ban back in place would not only be a positive move by the United States, it would help cut down on the flow of guns going across the border into Mexico, which is struggling with heavy violence among drug cartels along the border.

"I think that will have a positive impact in Mexico, at a minimum." Holder said at a news conference on the arrest of more than 700 people in a drug enforcement crackdown on Mexican drug cartels operating in the U.S.

Mexican government officials have complained that the availability of sophisticated guns from the United States have emboldened drug traffickers to fight over access routes into the U.S.
It's called building a case.


I never said I oppose the Justice Department turning over the papers... I simply said I understand why they don't do it, considering who's asking.
The Congressional Committee having oversight of the Justice Department?


This could've all been resolved a while ago should Issa had the balls to actually put the nation over his party. We're still waiting.
Really, how?


I said Holder lied. Do I need to add anything else? The whole 'contempt' dog and pony show is just that, and unfortunately will delay the actual independent investigation that could've started a long time ago. We'll wait I guess.
I think we disagree.

You're right, Holder has lied. But, going forward with the Contempt vote seem to force Obama to invoke executive privilege. Why? Why would he do that if the White House had no knowledge of the Fast and Furious Operation before seeing something about it in the media?

As one retired federal prosecutor (who also happened to work in the White House Counsel's office dealing specifically with privilege matters) put it, earlier today; those document must really screw Obama's pooch if he's willing to assert executive privilege over a matter in which -- to date -- he denied having any involvement.

I think, if nothing else, the drumbeat will grow -- from both sides of the ideological rope -- for the Administration to come clean and fork over the materials. All of them.

[Yonivore]

Also from 2009...

Counting Mexico's Guns (http://www.factcheck.org/politics/counting_mexicos_guns.html)


In recent weeks, efforts by the United States and Mexico to stop the illegal transfer of guns and drugs along their shared border have been on the front burner. U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder and Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano traveled to Mexico earlier this month to meet with their Mexican counterparts to discuss what can be done. And this week President Barack Obama traveled down south to continue talks between the two nations.


During a joint press conference with President Felipe Calderón of Mexico, Obama said of the raging violence by Mexican drug gangs:
Obama, April 16: A demand for these drugs in the United States is what is helping to keep these cartels in business. This war is being waged with guns purchased not here, but in the United States. More than 90 percent of the guns recovered in Mexico come from the United States, many from gun shops that line our shared border.
Obama would have been correct to say that 90 percent of the guns submitted for tracing by Mexican authorities were then traced to the U.S. The percentage of all recovered guns that came from the U.S. is unknown.
Obama was embarrassed for the next week or more for his false claim that 90% of the guns recovered at Mexican crimes come from the U.S.

It would make sense Fast and Furious was an effort to try and make the reality more closely resemble his lie. They sure weren't trying to track them.

I think Issa knows exactly for what he's asking. So does Holder -- which is why he has been stonewalling for over a year. So does Obama -- which is why he cast the executive privilege net over the whole thing when it became apparent Issa was calling Holder's bluff.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Obama plays politics and now the other side of the bipolar spectrum posture. Conflating it to watergate is fun and all but until Deepthroat starts making links to the WH to the press then its just posturing.

If you don't like it then get with my program and demand fundamental change to our political process. Otherwise bitching about typical maneuvering is just that. Might as well blame one side or another for filibustering.

If he actually had balls and maneuvered like this in another way than in reaction/CYA mode I might respect him a little more. It's not like its LBJ out there.

[Yonivore]

Ronald C. Machen Jr.
United States Attorney Ronald C. Machen Jr.

Ronald C. Machen Jr. was nominated to serve as United States Attorney for the District of Columbia by President Barack Obama on December 24, 2009. Mr. Machen’s appointment was confirmed by the United States Senate on February 11, 2010.

http://www.justice.gov/usao/dc/images/USADC_Machen.jpg

What do you think Yoni?
I think I expect Mr. Machen to do his job.


If the process wasn't already broken (debatable), the announcement that the documents are now under executive privilege basically make the "contempt" vote irrelevant, and the process irremediably broken. But I'm sure Issa will love the televised dog and pony show.
Asserting executive privilege doesn't automatically make it so.

In fact, it's a pretty weak case when you've been under subpoena, for almost a year, to produce documents that -- all during that time -- could have been declared privileged but only become so when Congress threatens you with a contempt citation?

This just ramps it up a notch.

Those documents must really be dynamite if Obama wants them kept secret.

[Big P]

I think Rep. Gowdy explained it best today.

http://youtu.be/2lIWMghw9Yg

[ElNono]

Not really...

Absolutely opinion.


It would be a lot easier to sell if there were a reason...

According to who, you? :lol

There's plenty of Dems in Congress more than happy to pass such legislation if they could. In 2009, they could've.


The Congressional Committee having oversight of the Justice Department?

There's no such thing as a "Congressional Committee having oversight of the Justice Department". Issa chairs the House Committee on Oversight. A Republican majority committee.

Congress is obviously allowed to go into whatever fishing expedition they want to go. It's unfortunate that their political gamesmanship is delaying an actual independent investigation of a serious matter.


Really, how?

Handing over the investigation to a special prosecutor to remove the cloud of partisanship over the investigation. Something he already agree he would need to do. One wonders what's taking so long.


I think we disagree.

You're right, Holder has lied. But, going forward with the Contempt vote seem to force Obama to invoke executive privilege. Why? Why would he do that if the White House had no knowledge of the Fast and Furious Operation before seeing something about it in the media?

Barry already invoked executive privilege. There's no contempt vote yet. Issa isn't getting those documents, so the contempt vote amounts to a dog and pony show.

As far as why, one could easily conclude the election coming up is no minor factor in this show. Issa wasn't convinced about Holder telling the truth a year ago either, why didn't he call a contempt vote then?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I think I expect Mr. Machen to do his job.

While i do not disagree with the ideal, this statement is incredibly naive. Its US politics not utopia.



Asserting executive privilege doesn't automatically make it so.

In fact, it's a pretty weak case when you've been under subpoena, for almost a year, to produce documents that -- all during that time -- could have been declared privileged but only become so when Congress threatens you with a contempt citation?

This just ramps it up a notch.

Those documents must really be dynamite if Obama wants them kept secret.

That or he is stalling the controversy until after the election.

And with a congress that is in partisan gridlock, executive privilege is what it is. If the appeal goes through the court then good luck getting it seen this year.

[ElNono]

I think I expect Mr. Machen to do his job.

He has superiors. Obeying his superiors is part of his job description.


Asserting executive privilege doesn't automatically make it so.

Apparently it was good enough when Rove decided to ignore a Congressional subpoena. See earlier posts.

[Yonivore]

Absolutely opinion.
I disagree.


According to who, you? :lol

There's plenty of Dems in Congress more than happy to pass such legislation if they could. In 2009, they could've.
Hell, it took just about all the wind in their sails to get Obamacare passed. Why? Because they wanted Republican cover for passing that piece of shit. It's all about being able to pass the blame around.

When Obama took officer there was no reason to re-institute the weapons ban. Obama said one of his plans was to do just that. Why? Well, according to him, Holder, and Napolitano there were so many goddamned U.S. guns killing Mexicans it was a good idea. Problem? That wasn't true. Solution? Make it true.


There's no such thing as a "Congressional Committee having oversight of the Justice Department". Issa chairs the House Committee on Oversight. A Republican majority committee.
Oversight is in the fucking title.


Congress is obviously allowed to go into whatever fishing expedition they want to go. It's unfortunate that their political gamesmanship is delaying an actual independent investigation of a serious matter.
Holder and, now, Obama are delaying the investigation.


Handing over the investigation to a special prosecutor to remove the cloud of partisanship over the investigation. Something he already agree he would need to do. One wonders what's taking so long.
Archibald Cox. Special Prosecutor fired by Nixon during the Saturday Night Massacre.

Kenneth Star. Special Prosecutor (overseen by a three-judge panel that approved every thing he did in his investigation) vilified and demonized by the partisan left for following an investigation of President Clinton where it took him.

Patrick Fitzgerald. Special Prosecutor that ramped up a witch hunt after the question he was appointed to answer was solved in the very earliest days of his investigation.

"Remove the cloud of partisanship" my ass. :lmao


Barry already invoked executive privilege. There's no contempt vote yet. Issa isn't getting those documents, so the contempt vote amounts to a dog and pony show.
Why didn't he invoke it sooner? Why did Holder offer to turn over materials now considered to be protected by privilege if the Committee would promise to end its investigation?


As far as why, one could easily conclude the election coming up is no minor factor in this show. Issa wasn't convinced about Holder telling the truth a year ago either, why didn't he call a contempt vote then?
You obviously haven't been following the story. And, if anyone's worried about the election, it should be Obama who could have compelled his Attorney General to cooperate a hell of a long time ago.

[Yonivore]

He has superiors. Obeying his superiors is part of his job description.
I'm pretty sure U. S. Attorney's take an oath that supersedes any illegal suggestions he may get from his superiors.

Again, are you suggesting Machen wouldn't do his job?


Apparently it was good enough when Rove decided to ignore a Congressional subpoena. See earlier posts.
Rove was a presidential adviser subpoenaed on a matter that would have required him to testify on counsel he gave the President of the United States. The specific situation for which Executive Privilege was designed.

Holder is a Department Head subpoenaed on a matter that would have required him to testify on a crime that allegedly occurred in his agency and in which the President of the United States claims absolutely no involvement.

I think this assertion of Executive Privilege may end up with the Supremes.

[Yonivore]

So much for the "Bush-did-it-too" crowd...

Another retraction: Holder withdraws claim that Bush’s attorney general knew about gunwalking (http://dailycaller.com/2012/06/20/another-retraction-holder-withdraws-claim-that-bushs-attorney-general-knew-about-gunwalking/)

[Yonivore]

I think Rep. Gowdy explained it best today.

http://youtu.be/2lIWMghw9Yg
:tu Thanks for posting.

You know you can embed those...

2lIWMghw9Yg

[Yonivore]

I think this is why it needs to stay with Congress...for now.

Obama invokes privilege to halt investigation (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/post/obama-invokes-privilege-to-halt-investigation/2012/06/20/gJQA2ULhqV_blog.html)


John Yoo, who is second to none when it comes to defending the executive branch, told me this afternoon: “Holder is a gift that keeps on giving — for congressional Republicans. He is bringing a unique combination of political ineptness and constitutional myopia. Politically, he is sustaining a story of law enforcement incompetence that he could bring to a quick end by providing the Hill with documents that bear no national security implications (unlike the Obama administration leaks about our counter-terrorism programs).”

On the law Yoo commented, “Legally, he has given the Obama White House bad advice on the scope of executive privilege, which the Supreme Court in Nixon made clear is centered on the president’s right to discuss the most sensitive national security, military and diplomatic matters with his aides. Either the White House is admitting that President Obama was involved in the ‘Fast and Furious’ controversy (which seems hard to believe), or they are seeking to claim executive privilege to mere discussion of low-level staff with the Attorney General, which the Constitution does not recognize.”

Principled Democrats who may soon face a Romney administration had better pipe up. Otherwise the precedent will be there for vast expansion of executive power and squashing of Congress’s proper role in our system of government.

[ElNono]

Hell, it took just about all the wind in their sails to get Obamacare passed.

Passing gun control laws should much easier than passing Healthcare reform. Clinton proved that.


Oversight is in the fucking title.

So there's no "Congressional Committee having oversight of the Justice Department"... Okay, glad we agree.


Holder and, now, Obama are delaying the investigation.

There's no investigation taking place while Issa is in charge. Issa has a history of acrimony towards Holder (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/01/02/issa-holder-stop-hurting-administration-leave/) even before getting the chairman position. The developments of this dog an pony show between Issa and the administration shouldn't be surprising, tbh.


Archibald Cox. Special Prosecutor fired by Nixon during the Saturday Night Massacre.

Kenneth Star. Special Prosecutor (overseen by a three-judge panel that approved every thing he did in his investigation) vilified and demonized by the partisan left for following an investigation of President Clinton where it took him.

Patrick Fitzgerald. Special Prosecutor that ramped up a witch hunt after the question he was appointed to answer was solved in the very earliest days of his investigation.

"Remove the cloud of partisanship" my ass.

None of which wore a (D) or an (R) next to their name. Obviously, partisan hacks (like you) will complain or praise, depending on how things go. That's expected, but there's no doubt any of those guys would necessarily act under loyalty towards certain party. With Issa, there's no doubt. Zero.


Why didn't he invoke it sooner? Why did Holder offer to turn over materials now considered to be protected by privilege if the Committee would promise to end its investigation?

But that was not the offer at all. The offer was that Holder would present documents based on the questions the commission had. But the commission didn't find that acceptable. Seeing the commission isn't interested in finding an amicable solution, Barry invoked the privilege.

Unfortunately this is a typical case of political gamesmanship from both sides. Dirt digging taking precedence over finding what actually happened.


You obviously haven't been following the story. And, if anyone's worried about the election, it should be Obama who could have compelled his Attorney General to cooperate a hell of a long time ago.

Holder cooperated. He testified numerous times in front of the commission.
Fact is Barry just doubled down on his AG today. He could've asked for his resignation instead.

The biggest problem is that nobody really cares about this seeing it has turned into a political circus. Barry should be worried about the election given the poor economic performance of the country in general.

[ElNono]

I'm pretty sure U. S. Attorney's take an oath that supersedes any illegal suggestions he may get from his superiors.

Why would there be "illegal suggestions"? He can be simply be ordered by a superior. There's nothing illegal about that.


Again, are you suggesting Machen wouldn't do his job?

I'm stating that Machen has a boss that he has to answer to.


Rove was a presidential adviser subpoenaed on a matter that ..... :blah:blah:blah:blah:blah:blah:blah

He was subpoenaed by Congress. Executive privilege was invoked. He didn't show up. There were no consequences to him.

[Yonivore]

Why would there be "illegal suggestions"? He can be simply be ordered by a superior. There's nothing illegal about that.
Depends on what he's order to do.

I'm still not sure why you suggest the case ending up before Machen is a dog and pony show. Please be specific. Are you suggesting Machen wouldn't do his job as a U. S. Attorney?


I'm stating that Machen has a boss that he has to answer to.
So did the BATFE whistleblowers and whomever is leaking document to Issa's committee.

What's your point? Bosses aren't Kings. They have to obey the law, too.


He was subpoenaed by Congress. Executive privilege was invoked. He didn't show up. There were no consequences to him.
Whose fault is that?

[Yonivore]

Thanks for the back and forth ElNono, we obviously disagree on the matter.

Plus, anything that hurts Obama's chances of re-election is just fine with me; so long as no puppies are harmed in the process.

[ElNono]

So much for the "Bush-did-it-too" crowd...

Another retraction: Holder withdraws claim that Bush’s attorney general knew about gunwalking (http://dailycaller.com/2012/06/20/another-retraction-holder-withdraws-claim-that-bushs-attorney-general-knew-about-gunwalking/)

Actually, the retraction is on which operation Mukasey was briefed on, not on the fact that he was briefed on a gun walking operation.

Bush did it too

[ElNono]

Thanks for the back and forth ElNono, we obviously disagree on the matter.

Plus, anything that hurts Obama's chances of re-election is just fine with me; so long as no puppies are harmed in the process.

Yoni, I think we can agree that Holder isn't a saint, and neither is Barry.

We'll probably disagree on Issa and his motives. :toast

[Big P]

So you still didn't watch the video nono?

[Yonivore]

Actually, the retraction is on which operation Mukasey was briefed on, not on the fact that he was briefed on a gun walking operation.

Bush did it too
Yeah, not so much.

There's a difference between a controlled operation and an uncontrolled operations. I'm sure you'll learn about the difference as time goes by.

But, if the Bush Administration committed illegal acts that resulted in the deaths of hundreds of Mexican nationals and U.S. Law Enforcement Officers, I'd want him and his administration dragged before Congress, as well.

Republican Gowdy seems open to the idea, too. If evidence leads to criminality -- no matter the party, no matter the administration, they need to be prosecuted. Bring it on.

Unfortunately for Democrats, they're going to find fundamental differences in the way the Bush Administration conducted similar operations.

[Yonivore]

Yoni, I think we can agree that Holder isn't a saint, and neither is Barry.
I think they're both worse than not being saints. I think they're both criminals that should rot in jail.


We'll probably disagree on Issa and his motives. :toast
So what? If Holder committed a crime, he should be held accountable -- it doesn't matter what his accuser's motives might be.

:toast I think we're at an impasse.

[Big P]

Which hunt?

You might be on to something...depends on which one, right?

[ElNono]

Yeah, not so much.

There's a difference between a controlled operation and an uncontrolled operations.

We don't know this was an uncontrolled operation.

[ElNono]

So you still didn't watch the video nono?

No audio. Cliff notes? I doubt there's anything there we haven't heard before.

[ElNono]

I think they're both worse than not being saints. I think they're both criminals that should rot in jail.

I for one would like to know what really happened. If they're criminals, no doubt.


So what? If Holder committed a crime, he should be held accountable -- it doesn't matter what his accuser's motives might be.

I don't disagree with that, but I also don't necessarily agree that Issa cares about that either.

[ElNono]

So you still didn't watch the video nono?

Nevermind, I found a transcript. Basically, nothing new there.

[Yonivore]

We don't know this was an uncontrolled operation.
We don't? Really?

[ElNono]

We don't? Really?

Yeah, we don't. Really. Still waiting for the ATF "smoking gun" document that says all guns walked untracked.

Do you have it? CosmicCowboy doesn't.

[Big P]

How convenient..no audio...well when you get a chance listen to Rep. Gowdy's video and it will help you understand what they are trying to telly you... an indefensible defense is indefensible.

[ElNono]

How convenient..no audio...well when you get a chance listen to Rep. Gowdy's video and it will help you understand what they are trying to telly you... an indefensible defense is indefensible.

Don't feel flattered. I don't watch any videos for the same reason.

I did read the transcript (in case you don't know what that is, is the audio transcribed into text). He didn't say anything that wasn't said before.

Thanks for posting though, I guess.

[Yonivore]

Yeah, we don't. Really. Still waiting for the ATF "smoking gun" document that says all guns walked untracked.

Do you have it? CosmicCowboy doesn't.
Why does it have to be all guns?

[ElNono]

Why does it have to be all guns?

Because otherwise it's not an "uncontrolled" operation?

What needs to be determined yet is whether there was either a fuckup with some of the guns, or the whole thing was an uncontrolled operation. I think there should be consequences no matter what it was, but it's a fairly important distinction between acting negligently or flat out criminally. But we don't know any of that yet.

[CosmicCowboy]

Yeah, we don't. Really. Still waiting for the ATF "smoking gun" document that says all guns walked untracked.

Do you have it? CosmicCowboy doesn't.

fucking dumbass.

You had the testimony of the ATF agents on the ground who were ordered to let the guns go.

I can't believe you can be that fucking hard headed stupid.

Why don't you cut this troll bullshit?

[CosmicCowboy]

Because otherwise it's not an "uncontrolled" operation?

What needs to be determined yet is whether there was either a fuckup with some of the guns, or the whole thing was an uncontrolled operation. I think there should be consequences no matter what it was, but it's a fairly important distinction between acting negligently or flat out criminally. But we don't know any of that yet.

I gave you the verbatim congressional testimony of the ATF agents that were ordered to let the guns go.

shit

fucking blue team smurf.

[ElNono]

I gave you the verbatim congressional testimony of the ATF agents that were ordered to let the guns go.

It's hearsay. If all it would take is the agent's testimony/allegations to convict anybody, there would be no need for documents.

This is basic stuff. Works the same regardless of party colors, tbh.

[ElNono]

fucking dumbass.

You had the testimony of the ATF agents on the ground who were ordered to let the guns go.

Holder said he didn't know. Why don't we just take everyone's word for it?

That's not how justice works. You need actual evidence.

fucking dumbass.

[Th'Pusher]

Is Yoni mike vanderboegh?

[ElNono]

I'm not even defending Holder or Barry or the administration in general, but I'm trolling? :lol

You know, it might not be what you want to hear, but it's the reality of it. Without actual documents stating F&F was an uncontrolled operation, there's no big scandal.

I'm not even saying those documents don't exist... we just haven't seen them yet and that's a fact.

[Yonivore]

Because otherwise it's not an "uncontrolled" operation?

What needs to be determined yet is whether there was either a fuckup with some of the guns, or the whole thing was an uncontrolled operation. I think there should be consequences no matter what it was, but it's a fairly important distinction between acting negligently or flat out criminally. But we don't know any of that yet.
I think it's already been established it was uncontrolled. The question is, why was it uncontrolled.

[Yonivore]

Holder said he didn't know. Why don't we just take everyone's word for it?

That's not how justice works. You need actual evidence.

fucking dumbass.
Well, Holder said he didn't know in 2011 and evidence was produced proving he was off by several months.

[ElNono]

I think it's already been established it was uncontrolled. The question is, why was it uncontrolled.

What's been established is that some guns walked uncontrolled. It just hasn't been proven as to whether the entire operation was uncontrolled. Otherwise there's no need for documentation, they would already have it.


Well, Holder said he didn't know in 2011 and evidence was produced proving he was off by several months.

Which is exactly what I'm saying. The sole reason we both know Holder lied is because evidence was presented that contradicted what he said. An email, an actual document.

There's no such document backing up the testimony of the ATF agents. I suspect that's exactly what the commission is after. Or any document describing what really happened. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm saying there's no such document available yet.

[Yonivore]

What's been established is that some guns walked uncontrolled. It just hasn't been proven as to whether the entire operation was uncontrolled. Otherwise there's no need for documentation, they would already have it.
No, it's been established as an uncontrolled operation.

From Holder's letter to Obama requesting he invoke Executive Privilege:


“The Committee has made clear that its contempt resolution will be limited to internal Department ‘documents from after February 4, 2011, related to the Department’s response to Congress.’”
February 4 is the date of the letter Holder sent to Congress stating Fast & Furious wasn't an uncontrolled operation in which guns were deliberately allowed to walk across the border into Mexico.

Holder withdrew that letter on December 2, 2011 because he "discovered" that wasn't true.

In December of 2011, Holder admitted the operation was uncontrolled. What the committee wants to know is how the decision to withdraw the letter evolved and to what extent administration officials may have been engaged in wrongdoing to try and cover the mess up after February 4, 2011.

Ten months is a long time -- particularly when everyone but other Democrats and the media are demanding answers.


Which is exactly what I'm saying. The sole reason we both know Holder lied is because evidence was presented that contradicted what he said. An email, an actual document.

There's no such document backing up the testimony of the ATF agents. I suspect that's exactly what the commission is after. Or any document describing what really happened. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm saying there's no such document available yet.
As Holder has admitted, the gun walking was intentional. The questions now appear to be, why and to what extent were senior administration officials involved in the operation or its clean up?

That's what the documents probably contain.

If the Committee wanted to know about the operation itself, I suspect they would have expanded their subpoena to at least before Agent Terry was murdered in December 2010 -- or earlier.

[ElNono]

No, it's been established as an uncontrolled operation.

No such thing.


From Holder's letter to Obama requesting he invoke Executive Privilege:

February 4 is the date of the letter Holder sent to Congress stating Fast & Furious wasn't an uncontrolled operation in which guns were deliberately allowed to walk across the border into Mexico.

Actually, the request from Holder has to do with protecting the internal deliberations post Feb 4, which don't involve F&F per se, but the actual responses to Congress. Agree with your recollection of the Feb 4 letter.


Holder withdrew that letter on December 2, 2011 because he "discovered" that wasn't true.

Disagree. He allegedly discovered that some of it might not have been true. We don't know the extent of it (some guns, the entire operation). That's exactly why Issa is requesting the documentation post Feb 4.


In December of 2011, Holder admitted the operation was uncontrolled.

Link? AFAIK, he never admitted to such a thing.


Ten months is a long time -- particularly when everyone but other Democrats and the media are demanding answers.

People have more real concerns, like the money in their pockets, but that's a different topic.


As Holder has admitted, the gun walking was intentional.

Link? AFAIK, he never admitted to such a thing, at least not on the whole operation.

[Wild Cobra]

Legalising weed isn't enough; you gotta legalise coke and heroin too if you want to kill the black market drug trade.
This is true. legalizing pot will not stop them.

You will be hard pressed to find very many conservatives who actually want pot illegal, but almost all conservatives will say throw the book at coke and heroin dealers.

[Wild Cobra]

I think in that executive order, Obama signed away the 2012 election. I think republicans will sink him hard with that, unless he finds a believable scapegoat.

[Big P]

Don't feel flattered. I don't watch any videos for the same reason.

I did read the transcript (in case you don't know what that is, is the audio transcribed into text). He didn't say anything that wasn't said before.

Thanks for posting though, I guess.


Ewww...burrrnnn....typical lib.....well at least you can read and maybe you will comprehend what they are telling you.

"Thanks for posting, I guess"

Gowdy just destroyed your defense and that's all you got? :blah

[Yonivore]

No such thing.

Actually, the request from Holder has to do with protecting the internal deliberations post Feb 4, which don't involve F&F per se, but the actual responses to Congress. Agree with your recollection of the Feb 4 letter.

Disagree. He allegedly discovered that some of it might not have been true. We don't know the extent of it (some guns, the entire operation). That's exactly why Issa is requesting the documentation post Feb 4.
Holder agreed the part of the memo that said they make every effort to interdict guns and that they didn't allow guns to walk was false.

It was uncontrolled. I don't know why you think it's important to know if ALL guns were allowed to walk; we know enough did to end up at the scenes of hundreds of murders, including Agent Terry's.


Link? AFAIK, he never admitted to such a thing.
In the text of the December 2, 2011 letter to Congress.


People have more real concerns, like the money in their pockets, but that's a different topic.
Holder isn't a budget official or an economic advisor, he's the AG. What do you think are the concerns of Agent Terry's family or the families of all toes dead Mexican nationals?


Link? AFAIK, he never admitted to such a thing, at least not on the whole operation.
Right there the December 2, 2011 letter to Congress. He didn't say some guns accidentally got across the border, he admitted it was by design.

[jack sommerset]

I'm on the record saying Holder is lying and Barry pulling this shit is terrible.

:lol Issa holding up the investigation
:lol circus
:lol go red team

But then you go into spin control. It's wrong and leave it at that. Obama is going to lose the election. You and fellow democrats need to send a message to your party. This behavior is unacceptable. Hopefully you will find a candidate in 2016 that has integrity. God bless


"Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord, but those who act faithfully are his delight."

[George Gervin's Afro]

Mexican Violence Fueled by American Guns

AFP/Getty Share Print article Share on emailEmail article Comments (34) Adam Clark Estes 4,451 Views

Jun 14, 2011

The violence in Mexico is getting out of hand, and American guns are fueling the bloodshed. According to a report released Monday by three U.S. senators, at least 70 percent of the guns recovered by Mexican authorities in 2009 and 2010 can be traced back to the United States. The report, "Halting U.S. Firearms Trafficking to Mexico" by Democratic Senators Dianne Feinstein, Chuck Schumer and Sheldon Whitehouse, takes a strong position on Congress's inaction in quelling the flow of American assault rifles. Mexican President Felipe Calderon has made repeated requests for stricter gun laws to prevent continued bloodshed.

The morgues are overflowing in San Fernando, which along a road locals call "the highway of death." Many bus companies have cancelled that route between the Tamaulipas state capital Ciudad Victoria and Brownsville, Texas, and few journalists dare venture into the area without military escorts.

Calderon blames the United States, at least for the guns. Though the proportionate amount of weapons coming out of the U.S. has dropped to 70 percent from the 85 percent reported in 2009, it's tough to argue against the Mexican president Along those lines, the American ban on assault rifles lifted in 2004 contributed to the spike in bloodshed. "You can clearly see how the violence began to grow in 2005, and of course it has gone on an upward spiral in the last six years," Calderon said in a speech to Mexican-Americans in San Jose, California on Saturday. The drug wars are also costing Calderon tremendous political capital in Mexico, where protestors, like the one pictured above, march almost daily against his inability to control the situation.

This week's Senate report recommends stricter laws around assault rifles, especially military-style weapons imported from Eastern Europe, and points to gun shows as a source of these types of weapons. The point is not lost on President Calderon. "I accuse the U.S. weapons industry of (responsibility for) the deaths of thousands of people that are occurring in Mexico," Calderon said Saturday. "It is for profit, for the profits that it makes for the weapons industry."

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2011/06/mexican-violence-fueled-american-guns/38798/



I used google search to for US guns and Mexican stats..there were quite a few..

so the feigned outrage by the yoni's of the world is laughable..

so now issa wants 1300 documents relating to a Feb. 4th email... definitely not a politically motivated circus... lol

[George Gervin's Afro]

But then you go into spin control. It's wrong and leave it at that. Obama is going to lose the election. You and fellow democrats need to send a message to your party. This behavior is unacceptable. Hopefully you will find a candidate in 2016 that has integrity. God bless


"Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord, but those who act faithfully are his delight."

It will be great day when he wins re-election and you disappear from this forum..lol

[George Gervin's Afro]

Holder agreed the part of the memo that said they make every effort to interdict guns and that they didn't allow guns to walk was false.

It was uncontrolled. I don't know why you think it's important to know if ALL guns were allowed to walk; we know enough did to end up at the scenes of hundreds of murders, including Agent Terry's.


In the text of the December 2, 2011 letter to Congress.


Holder isn't a budget official or an economic advisor, he's the AG. What do you think are the concerns of Agent Terry's family or the families of all toes dead Mexican nationals?


Right there the December 2, 2011 letter to Congress. He didn't say some guns accidentally got across the border, he admitted it was by design.

hundreds or murders? wtf is that?

[CosmicCowboy]

From the London Telegraph
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100166854/the-fast-and-furious-scandal-is-turning-into-president-obamas-watergate/

The Fast and Furious scandal is turning into President Obama's Watergate
By Tim Stanley

Fast and furious hasn’t been discussed a lot in the mainstream media, which is why the facts can seem so preposterous when you read them for the first time. But the story is slowly unraveling and the public is catching up with the madness. On Wednesday, the The House Oversight and Government Reform Committee voted to hold Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt over his decision to withhold documents related to the “gun walking” operation – documents that President Obama tried to keep secret by invoking executive privilege. The question of why the Prez intervened in this way will surely hang over the investigation and the White House for many months to come. Be patient, conservatives. It took nearly eight months for the Watergate break in to become a national news story. But when it finally did, it toppled a President.
Here’s what Fast and Furious is all about – and for the uninitiated, be prepared for a shock. In 2009, the US government instructed Arizona gun sellers illegally to sell arms to suspected criminals. Agents working for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) were then ordered not to stop the sales but to allow the arms to “walk” across the border into the arms of Mexican drug-traffickers. According to the Oversight Committee’s report, “The purpose was to wait and watch, in hope that law enforcement could identify other members of a trafficking network and build a large, complex conspiracy case…. [The ATF] initially began using the new gun-walking tactics in one of its investigations to further the Department’s strategy. The case was soon renamed ‘Operation Fast and Furious.”
Tracing the arms became difficult, until they starting appearing at bloody crime scenes. Many Mexicans have died from being shot by ATF sanctioned guns, but the scandal only became public after a US federal agent, Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry, was killed by one of them in a fire fight. ATF whistle blowers started to come forward and the Department of Justice was implicated. It’s estimated that the US government effectively supplied 1,608 weapons to criminals, at a total value of over $1 million. Aside from putting American citizens in danger, the AFT also supplied what now amounts to a civil war within Mexico.
It’s important to note that the Bush administration oversaw something similar to Fast and Furious. Called Operation Wide Receiver, it used the common tactic of “controlled delivery,” whereby agents would allow an illegal transaction to take place, closely follow the movements of the arms, and then descend on the culprits. But Fast and Furious is different because it was “uncontrolled delivery,” whereby the criminals were essentially allowed to drop off the map. Perhaps more importantly, Wide Receiver was conducted with the cooperation of the Mexican government. Fast and Furious was not.
So Obama’s operation is subtly different. But just as concerning is the heavy handed way that the administration has handled criticism. Obama says that the Oversight Committee has been hi-jacked by Republicans who would rather talk about politics than creating jobs (because Obama is o-so very good at generating those). But there has been Democratic criticism too, and the Prez’s determined defence of Holder will only encourage conspiracy thinking that the scandal has hidden depths. Executive privilege is usually associated with protecting information that passes through the Oval Office. What did the documents reveal about Obama’s association with the operation?
Again, it’s important to contextualise. Executive privilege has been invoked 24 times since Ronald Reagan, and attempts to over-ride it rarely reach the courts. Moreover, Holder’s request for executive privilege made no reference to White House involvement in Fast and Furious, which seems to have been run exclusively by the ATF. Nevertheless, by refusing to sack Holder or push him to come clean, Obama may have made a very Nixonian mistake.
A lot of conservatives are writing at the moment that not only is Obama turning into Nixon Mark II, but Obama is much worse because no one actually got killed during Watergate. The comparison is based on the myth that Nixon ordered the Watergate break in and that’s what he eventually had to resign over. But that’s not true. Nixon’s guilt was in trying to pervert the course of justice by persuading the FBI to drop its investigation of the crime. Mistake number one, then, was to involve the White House in covering up the errors of a separate, autonomous political department. Mistake number two was that when Congress discovered that evidence about the scandal might be recorded on the White House bugging system, Nixon invoked executive privilege to protect the tapes. In both cases, it was the cover up that destroyed Tricky Dick – not the original crime.
And, forty years later almost to the day, here we have Obama making the same mistake. Perhaps it’s an act of chivalry to stand by Holder; perhaps it’s an admission of guilt. Either way, it sinks the Oval Office ever further into the swamp that is Fast and Furious. Make no mistake about: Fast and Furious was perhaps the most shameful domestic law and order operation since the Waco siege. It’s big government at its worst: big, incompetent and capable of ruining lives.

[Th'Pusher]

Rachel Maddow address Youni, CC and WC directly :blah

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/ns/msnbc_tv-rachel_maddow_show/#47898272

[CosmicCowboy]

:lol Rachel Maddow

[CosmicCowboy]

I think in that executive order, Obama signed away the 2012 election. I think republicans will sink him hard with that, unless he finds a believable scapegoat.

Actually it may help him. It distracts attention from his fucked up handling of the economy.

[boutons_deux]

how did HUSSEIN mishandle the economy?

It's a Repug economy, fucked up with Repug war, Repug tax cuts, Repug deregulation of finance, Repug states laying off 100Ks of public employees, Repugs blocking any stimulus appropriate to the size of the Banksters' Great Depression, etc, etc.

[CosmicCowboy]

:lol Croutons

[Yonivore]

hundreds or murders? wtf is that?
You are absolutely right, Hair Man. It's only been speculated Fast and Furious guns have been involved in hundreds of murders in Mexico. If I remember, I'll use the term "allegedly" whenever I refer to the crimes in the future.

Mexican officials, however, put the number in the hundreds:

Attorney General in Mexico: 200 Murders Result of Operation Fast and Furious (http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2011/09/20/attorney_general_in_mexico_200_murders_result_of_o peration_fast_and_furious)

So far as I know, Fast and Furious guns have only been confirmed to have been involved in less than a dozen crime scenes (Sorry, I don't know how many murders were committed at each scene), one of which was the brother of the Chihuahuan Attorney General (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/17/two-ak47s-used-to-murder-mexican-lawyer-were-fast-and-furious-guns-sources-say/) and another U.S. Federal Agent Terry.

Also, Holder is not willing to say how many of the estimated 68,000 U.S. guns, in Mexico, are ones that got there through Fast and Furious. But, he did allow, the number of deaths related to the operation is probably going to rise.

So, again, you're right, no one can definitively say there have been hundreds of Mexican nationals killed by Fast and Furious guns.

Tell me, Afro, what would be an acceptable number of such deaths? At what point do you want those responsible to be held accountable?

[Yonivore]

Actually it may help him. It distracts attention from his fucked up handling of the economy.
I disagree.

Romney will probably stay on message.

At best, Obama's attention will be divided between responding to the Romney campaign's message on his failure economically while also having to respond to his Nixonian invocation of Executive Privilege.

[TeyshaBlue]

Hair Man. :lol

[Yonivore]

so now issa wants 1300 documents relating to a Feb. 4th email...
You say that as if it is just another memorandum.

The February 4, 2011 memorandum from Holder to Congress asserts the federal government was doing everything it could to interdict weapons crossing the border into Mexico. It also stated the federal government was not intentionally allowing guns to cross the border into Mexico.

On December 2, 2011, Holder sent another memorandum to Congress retracting the February 4, 2011 because the above two statements were false.

The Committee is interested in seeing if the 10-month process that led to the December 2nd memo will reveal any wrongdoing. It's within their purview to do so and it is Holder's obligation to produce 100% of the materials requested in that pursuit.

There are a number of lawyers already tearing Holder's letter to Obama (requesting the assertion of Executive Privilege) to shreds over an number of errors, the most important of which seems to be Holder fails to cite the most important Executive Privilege case related to his claim.

:corn: It's going to be interesting to watch this unfold on several fronts; criminal, judicial, and electoral.

[George Gervin's Afro]

You say that as if it is just another memorandum.

The February 4, 2011 memorandum from Holder to Congress asserts the federal government was doing everything it could to interdict weapons crossing the border into Mexico. It also stated the federal government was not intentionally allowing guns to cross the border into Mexico.

On December 2, 2011, Holder sent another memorandum to Congress retracting the February 4, 2011 because the above two statements were false.

The Committee is interested in seeing if the 10-month process that led to the December 2nd memo will reveal any wrongdoing. It's within their purview to do so and it is Holder's obligation to produce 100% of the materials requested in that pursuit.

There are a number of lawyers already tearing Holder's letter to Obama (requesting the assertion of Executive Privilege) to shreds over an number of errors, the most important of which seems to be Holder fails to cite the most important Executive Privilege case related to his claim.

:corn: It's going to be interesting to watch this unfold on several fronts; criminal, judicial, and electoral.

so they are fishing... got it

[Yonivore]

so they are fishing... got it
There are other facts that suggest a cover up; you're the one fishing.

[jack sommerset]

It will be great day when he wins re-election and you disappear from this forum..lol

My brother, only God will force me from this forum. God bless

[George Gervin's Afro]

My brother, only God will force me from this forum. God bless

Hopefully sooner rather than later..God Bless

[ElNono]

Holder agreed the part of the memo that said they make every effort to interdict guns and that they didn't allow guns to walk was false.

Correct. That doesn't mean the operation as a whole was uncontrolled.


It was uncontrolled. I don't know why you think it's important to know if ALL guns were allowed to walk; we know enough did to end up at the scenes of hundreds of murders, including Agent Terry's.

Of course it matters. If they simply lost track of some of the guns, then it's negligence. It's very different if they willingly ran a completely uncontrolled operation. (And I'm not saying they did either, simply that neither you or I know, and that Holder never admitted to such a thing).


In the text of the December 2, 2011 letter to Congress.

There's no such admission on the letter. Quote where he admits the operation was uncontrolled?


Holder isn't a budget official or an economic advisor, he's the AG. What do you think are the concerns of Agent Terry's family or the families of all toes dead Mexican nationals?

I think Agent Terry's family would like to know what happened. Once Issa is done with his dog and pony show, maybe there will be an actual investigation that cares about finding out what happened.


Right there the December 2, 2011 letter to Congress. He didn't say some guns accidentally got across the border, he admitted it was by design.

Quote? The only admission I find is that the operation was "fundamentally flawed".

[ElNono]

From the London Telegraph
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100166854/the-fast-and-furious-scandal-is-turning-into-president-obamas-watergate/

The Fast and Furious scandal is turning into President Obama's Watergate
By Tim Stanley

Fast and furious hasn’t been discussed a lot in the mainstream media, which is why the facts can seem so preposterous when you read them for the first time. But the story is slowly unraveling and the public is catching up with the madness. On Wednesday, the The House Oversight and Government Reform Committee voted to hold Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt over his decision to withhold documents related to the “gun walking” operation – documents that President Obama tried to keep secret by invoking executive privilege. The question of why the Prez intervened in this way will surely hang over the investigation and the White House for many months to come. Be patient, conservatives. It took nearly eight months for the Watergate break in to become a national news story. But when it finally did, it toppled a President.
Here’s what Fast and Furious is all about – and for the uninitiated, be prepared for a shock. In 2009, the US government instructed Arizona gun sellers illegally to sell arms to suspected criminals. Agents working for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) were then ordered not to stop the sales but to allow the arms to “walk” across the border into the arms of Mexican drug-traffickers. According to the Oversight Committee’s report, “The purpose was to wait and watch, in hope that law enforcement could identify other members of a trafficking network and build a large, complex conspiracy case…. [The ATF] initially began using the new gun-walking tactics in one of its investigations to further the Department’s strategy. The case was soon renamed ‘Operation Fast and Furious.”
Tracing the arms became difficult, until they starting appearing at bloody crime scenes. Many Mexicans have died from being shot by ATF sanctioned guns, but the scandal only became public after a US federal agent, Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry, was killed by one of them in a fire fight. ATF whistle blowers started to come forward and the Department of Justice was implicated. It’s estimated that the US government effectively supplied 1,608 weapons to criminals, at a total value of over $1 million. Aside from putting American citizens in danger, the AFT also supplied what now amounts to a civil war within Mexico.
It’s important to note that the Bush administration oversaw something similar to Fast and Furious. Called Operation Wide Receiver, it used the common tactic of “controlled delivery,” whereby agents would allow an illegal transaction to take place, closely follow the movements of the arms, and then descend on the culprits. But Fast and Furious is different because it was “uncontrolled delivery,” whereby the criminals were essentially allowed to drop off the map. Perhaps more importantly, Wide Receiver was conducted with the cooperation of the Mexican government. Fast and Furious was not.
So Obama’s operation is subtly different. But just as concerning is the heavy handed way that the administration has handled criticism. Obama says that the Oversight Committee has been hi-jacked by Republicans who would rather talk about politics than creating jobs (because Obama is o-so very good at generating those). But there has been Democratic criticism too, and the Prez’s determined defence of Holder will only encourage conspiracy thinking that the scandal has hidden depths. Executive privilege is usually associated with protecting information that passes through the Oval Office. What did the documents reveal about Obama’s association with the operation?
Again, it’s important to contextualise. Executive privilege has been invoked 24 times since Ronald Reagan, and attempts to over-ride it rarely reach the courts. Moreover, Holder’s request for executive privilege made no reference to White House involvement in Fast and Furious, which seems to have been run exclusively by the ATF. Nevertheless, by refusing to sack Holder or push him to come clean, Obama may have made a very Nixonian mistake.
A lot of conservatives are writing at the moment that not only is Obama turning into Nixon Mark II, but Obama is much worse because no one actually got killed during Watergate. The comparison is based on the myth that Nixon ordered the Watergate break in and that’s what he eventually had to resign over. But that’s not true. Nixon’s guilt was in trying to pervert the course of justice by persuading the FBI to drop its investigation of the crime. Mistake number one, then, was to involve the White House in covering up the errors of a separate, autonomous political department. Mistake number two was that when Congress discovered that evidence about the scandal might be recorded on the White House bugging system, Nixon invoked executive privilege to protect the tapes. In both cases, it was the cover up that destroyed Tricky Dick – not the original crime.
And, forty years later almost to the day, here we have Obama making the same mistake. Perhaps it’s an act of chivalry to stand by Holder; perhaps it’s an admission of guilt. Either way, it sinks the Oval Office ever further into the swamp that is Fast and Furious. Make no mistake about: Fast and Furious was perhaps the most shameful domestic law and order operation since the Waco siege. It’s big government at its worst: big, incompetent and capable of ruining lives.

If you like the way he writes, he has a brand new Pat Buchanan biography out...

[ElNono]

Gowdy just destroyed your defense and that's all you got? :blah

I'll take this as an admission you agree he didn't say anything that was not already known... carry on

[ElNono]

But then you go into spin control.

What spin control? I never said Barry or Holder aren't guilty of anything. It seems that pointing out that Issa is no saint himself has the red team' panties in a wad.

[ElNono]

There are other facts that suggest a cover up; you're the one fishing.

What do you mean "suggest"? I thought they already proven criminal activity. lol

[CosmicCowboy]

You certainly are stubborn. You are apparently asserting that if ANY weapons were controlled then it was a "controlled" operation. :lmao

The ATF admits to walking over 1600 guns that they did not control.

Four ATF agents testified to Congress that they were ORDERED by their superiors to let the guns go. This was not "hearsay" as you claim. They were THERE and they testified under oath. They had NOTHING to gain by testifying and in fact, were punished by their superiors for doing so.

[clambake]

how do you know they have nothing to gain? why didn't they just refuse orders?

why do you think the only way to get guns is through licensed arms dealers?

[CosmicCowboy]

Six months ago, several agents with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives stood before Congress to testify about the details of a U.S. government program that armed Mexico's largest drug cartel with thousands of assault rifles.
The administration denied it at the time and questioned the agents' integrity. The men were nervous and scared. They said they feared for their careers, their reputation and their families.
"Any attempt to retaliate against them for their testimony today would be unfair, unwise and unlawful," Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, warned the Department of Justice.
He and Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., began an investigation to determine who authorized "Operation Fast and Furious" and aimed to hold accountable those responsible for a plan that helped known criminals run guns across the border in violation of U.S. and international law.
And while President Obama has said the operation was a mistake and that "people who screwed up will be held accountable," the record so far does not bear that out. Those in charge of the botched operation have been reassigned or promoted, their pensions intact. But many of those who blew the whistle face isolation, retaliation and transfer.
Here's what has happened to the managers of the operation:
-- Acting ATF Chief Ken Melson, who oversaw the operation, is now an adviser in the Office of Legal Affairs. He remains in ATF's Washington, D.C., headquarters.
-- Acting Deputy Director Billy Hoover, who knew his agency was walking guns and demanded an "exit strategy" just five months into the program, is now the special agent in charge of the D.C. office. He, too, did not have to relocate.
-- Deputy Director for Field Operations William McMahon received detailed briefings about the illegal operation and later admitted he shares "responsibility for mistakes that were made.” Yet, he also stays in D.C., ironically as the No. 2 man at the ATF's Office of Internal Affairs.
-- Special Agent in Charge of Phoenix Bill Newell, the man most responsible for directly overseeing Fast and Furious, was promoted to the Office of Management in Washington.
-- Phoenix Deputy Chief George Gillette was also promoted to Washington as ATF's liaison to the U.S. Marshal's Service.
-- Group Supervisor David Voth managed Fast and Furious on a day-to-day basis and repeatedly stopped field agents from interdicting weapons headed to the border, according to congressional testimony. ATF boosted Voth to chief of the ATF Tobacco Division, where he now supervises more employees in Washington than he ever did in Phoenix.
An ATF spokesman in Washington says the key players did not receive promotions, but transfers.
Special Agent Jay Dobyns, who is suing the agency for breach of contract, is skeptical.
"These guys are protected. They're insulated. They're all part of a club," Dobyns said, alleging that the ATF has a history of retaliating against its own who speak up.
"They risk everything, knowing that everything they worked for, their careers, their reputations, their finances, are all going to be ruined."
Case in point, he said, is field agent John Dodson. Dodson uprooted his family from Virginia in 2010 to join a new elite anti-gun trafficking group in Phoenix, known as Group 7. Dodson quickly witnessed what was wrong and loudly voiced his objections to Voth and Newell.
Management reassigned Dodson to weekend duty and the wire room, a relatively boring job monitoring telephone traffic and subordinate to junior agents. Soon thereafter, Dodson was temporarily assigned to another group for an additional menial assignment, until ultimately sent to an FBI Task Force, completely away from the ATF, even turning off his ATF building access pass.
Dodson continued to challenge Voth, saying the operation was killing people in Mexico and suggested it was only a matter of time before a "border agent or sheriff's deputy" would be killed by one of the guns they let go.
"If you're going to make an omelet, you've got to scramble some eggs," Voth replied, according to a congressional report.
Voth moved Dodson out of Group 7 shortly before Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was shot by weapons traced to Fast and Furious. Newell, Gillette and Voth began to cover up their tracks. According to an e-mail 24 hours after Terry was shot, Voth wrote:
"We are charging Avila (Jaime Avila bought the alleged murder weapons) with a stand-alone June 2010 firearms purchase. This way we do not divulge our current case (Fast and Furious) or the Border Patrol shooting case."
"Great job," Newell replied.
Dodson first complained internally to the ATF Office of Chief Counsel and Ethics Section, OIG, Office of Special Counsel, and Office of Professional Responsibility. They were unresponsive. Dodson was then contacted by congressional investigators, who began their own investigation.
Because of Dodson, the Terry family hopes to hear the truth about what happened to their son and the American public learned that senior Obama administration officials did nothing to stop guns from reaching an insurgency south of the border.
And what did Dodson get for telling the truth? In Phoenix he was isolated, marginalized and referred to as a "nut job," "wing-nut" and "disgruntled," according to sources.
In Washington, ATF command ordered that "Contact with Dodson was detrimental to any ATF career."
Newell's Attorney told Fox News that all of this was because "Dodson didn't want to work weekends."
Dennis Burke, the Arizona U.S. attorney who resigned in the wake of the investigation, admitted he leaked privacy-protected documents that discredited Dodson. The head of legislative affairs for the Department of Justice, Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich, indirectly called Dodson a liar, telling senators the ATF "never intentionally allowed guns" to walk, or to lose sight or control of the weapons.
So what happened to Dodson and the other whistleblowers?
"The only people who have been damaged from Fast and Furious, short of the obvious victims, are the people who tried to tell truth and blew the whistle," Dobyns said.
Dodson was told he was toxic and could no longer work in Phoenix. With sole custody of two teenagers and under water on his house mortgage, Dodson found himself with no place to be and nowhere to go.
A supervisor suggested he'd be treated fairly at an office in South Carolina. Wanting to keep his job, protect his pension and pay the mortgage, Dodson had no other choice. He and his family now live in a small apartment, facing financial troubles, still labeled persona non grata by the very agency he carries a badge for, and regularly assaulted by leaks from "ATF sources at headquarters."
Dodson has tried to remain out of the public eye, has not filed suit and says only that he wishes to return to his work as an ATF agent.
As for the others:
-- Agent Larry Alt took a transfer to Florida and has unresolved retaliation claims against the ATF.
-- Agent Pete Forcelli was demoted to a desk job. Forcelli is a respected investigator, with years as a detective with the New York City Police Department. He has requested an internal investigation to address the retaliation against him.
-- Agent James Casa also took a transfer to Florida.
-- Agent Carlos Canino, once the deputy attache in Mexico City, was moved to Tucson.
-- Agent Jose Wall, formerly assigned to Tijuana, was moved to Phoenix.
-- Agent Darren Gil, formerly the attache to Mexico, retired.
Sources say the agents are in a kind of purgatory. As whistleblowers, they can't be fired. The agency can try, but it would be messy. On the other hand, they can be transferred but face the problems of relocating on their own.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/11/30/fast-and-furious-whistleblowers-struggle-six-months-after-testifying-against/#ixzz1yRpjziG0

[clambake]

"they were nervous and scared" lol

[CosmicCowboy]

how do you know they have nothing to gain? why didn't they just refuse orders?

why do you think the only way to get guns is through licensed arms dealers?

Rah Rah blue team!...:cheer

Clambake right on cue...

See previous article about the ATF agents

WTF? Fast and Furious was TARGETED against licensed gun dealers and they were instructed by the ATF(against their better judgement) to make the straw sales.

[clambake]

so, the nervous and scared atf agents instructed the nervous and scared licensed gun dealers. lol

[clambake]

for the record, i don't have a horse in this race. its just fun watching you dance like a duck on a hot plate.

[CosmicCowboy]

Rah Rah BLUE TEAM! :cheer

[clambake]

in case you didn't notice, i'm cheering with red pompoms.

[ElNono]

You certainly are stubborn. You are apparently asserting that if ANY weapons were controlled then it was a "controlled" operation. :lmao

It might have been a controlled operation that went wrong. You seemingly are aware of a similar operation that lost guns too, so it shouldn't come as a surprise to you that could actually happen. We just don't know.


The ATF admits to walking over 1600 guns that they did not control.

Four ATF agents testified to Congress that they were ORDERED by their superiors to let the guns go. This was not "hearsay" as you claim. They were THERE and they testified under oath. They had NOTHING to gain by testifying and in fact, were punished by their superiors for doing so.

Sure it's hearsay/allegations. I can testify under oath you killed your neighbor. It's useless unless I have evidence to back that up.

BTW, I didn't set those standards, they're basic justice standards.

Which is the reason they're seeking documents. If they had what they needed to prosecute Holder, he'll be on trial now.

[clambake]

for what its worth, the repubs have lost their edge. just a few years ago they would have manufactured evidence.

[CosmicCowboy]

It might have been a controlled operation that went wrong. You seemingly are aware of a similar operation that lost guns too, so it shouldn't come as a surprise to you that could actually happen. We just don't know.



Sure it's hearsay/allegations. I can testify under oath you killed your neighbor. It's useless unless I have evidence to back that up.

BTW, I didn't set those standards, they're basic justice standards.

Which is the reason they're seeking documents. If they had what they needed to prosecute Holder, he'll be on trial now.

:lmao

That is not hearsay, it's eyewitness testimony.

If 4 people testify they saw me kill my neighbor, and my neighbor is indeed dead, I'm getting convicted of murder.

[DisAsTerBot]

Sure it's hearsay/allegations. I can testify under oath you killed your neighbor. It's useless unless I have evidence to back that up.



wow, that's Mavfan dumb.

Is his neighbor dead? What a stupid analogy

[CosmicCowboy]

It might have been a controlled operation that went wrong. You seemingly are aware of a similar operation that lost guns too, so it shouldn't come as a surprise to you that could actually happen. We just don't know.



Sure it's hearsay/allegations. I can testify under oath you killed your neighbor. It's useless unless I have evidence to back that up.

BTW, I didn't set those standards, they're basic justice standards.

Which is the reason they're seeking documents. If they had what they needed to prosecute Holder, he'll be on trial now.

:lmao

Who said anything about prosecuting Holder for Fast and furious?

The inquiry is about LYING TO CONGRESS AND THE COVER UP.

We know what happened in Fast and Furious. THE ATF INTENTIONALLY WALKED GUNS TO THE CARTELS. You are the only one that seems to be trying to dispute that.

[ElNono]

:lmao

If 4 people testify they saw me kill my neighbor, and my neighbor is indeed dead, I'm getting convicted of murder.

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

No you're not. Unless the cops can prove you fired the gun, what the 4 people testified means absolutely jackshit.


wow, that's Mavfan dumb.

Is his neighbor dead? What a stupid analogy

What's dumb about it?

[ElNono]

Who said anything about prosecuting Holder for Fast and furious?

The inquiry is about LYING TO CONGRESS AND THE COVER UP.

This is where you show your hand. :lol

So you're saying you're not concerned with public officials allegedly committing crimes and not being prosecuted? You just care about the "scandal"... not that it wasn't clear before, tbh..... go red team go!


We know what happened in Fast and Furious. THE ATF INTENTIONALLY WALKED GUNS TO THE CARTELS. You are the only one that seems to be trying to dispute that.

We're not getting anywhere with this... I'm not disputing that happened. I'm disputing that was official ATF policy. I asked you for the "smoking gun" ATF document stating that. I'm still waiting.

[DisAsTerBot]

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

No you're not. Unless the cops can prove you fired the gun, what the 4 people testified means absolutely jackshit.



What's dumb about it?

first of all it's 4 ATF agents testifying to congress about trackable weapons that ACTUALLY went into the hands of the cartels.

Not a neighbor accusing someone of killing a neighbor who isn't even dead.

that's why it's dumb.

[ElNono]

first of all it's 4 ATF agents testifying to congress about trackable weapons that ACTUALLY went into the hands of the cartels.

How do you know they did? Weren't the weapons untracked?


Not a neighbor accusing someone of killing a neighbor who isn't even dead.

The neighbor being dead doesn't mean he did it, despite what I testify.


that's why it's dumb.

Why?

[CosmicCowboy]

This is where you show your hand. :lol

So you're saying you're not concerned with public officials allegedly committing crimes and not being prosecuted? You just care about the "scandal"... not that it wasn't clear before, tbh..... go red team go!



We're not getting anywhere with this... I'm not disputing that happened. I'm disputing that was official ATF policy. I asked you for the "smoking gun" ATF document stating that. I'm still waiting.

Fuck you.

I'm absolutely disgusted that anyone in the ATF would do such a stupid program. so yeah, I care. That investigation is basically concluded and no one but you seems to dispute that the ATF intentionally walked guns directly into the hands of the cartels.

I'm also disgusted that Holders justice department lied to congress and said that no one at Justice knew about it and it was just the actions of a few rogue ATF agents.

I think congress is well withing their right to pursue the perjury and find out who knew what when. That is what this inquiry is about, and by stonewalling and invoking executive privilege holder looks guilty as hell.

[CosmicCowboy]

And yes, I think the gun walking was a policy that came straight from the top of the justice department and possibly even the white house.

[ElNono]

Fuck you.

I'm absolutely disgusted that anyone in the ATF would do such a stupid program. so yeah, I care. That investigation is basically concluded and no one but you seems to dispute that the ATF intentionally walked guns directly into the hands of the cartels.

I'm also disgusted that Holders justice department lied to congress and said that no one at Justice knew about it and it was just the actions of a few rogue ATF agents.

I think congress is well withing their right to pursue the perjury and find out who knew what when. That is what this inquiry is about, and by stonewalling and invoking executive privilege holder looks guilty as hell.

Holder can go rot in jail for all I care (and whoever else is responsible, including Barry if pertinent, too).

People died here, this wasn't a blow job. An actual investigation would find out what happened, who's responsible and hand out indictments. I'm not holding my breath, because public officials rarely face such consequences, but that's exactly what we should be striving for.

This whole contempt dog and pony show does nothing to advance the investigation or to get us closer to the truth. It's a dick swinging contest for the cameras.

[CosmicCowboy]

Holder can go rot in jail for all I care (and whoever else is responsible, including Barry if pertinent, too).

People died here, this wasn't a blow job. An actual investigation would find out what happened, who's responsible and hand out indictments. I'm not holding my breath, because public officials rarely face such consequences, but that's exactly what we should be striving for.

This whole contempt dog and pony show does nothing to advance the investigation or to get us closer to the truth. It's a dick swinging contest for the cameras.

It wouldn't have to be if Holder had just released the requested documents 8 months ago.

What makes you think he wouldn't stonewall and claim executive privilege with an independent prosecutor?

[ElNono]

It wouldn't have to be if Holder had just released the requested documents 8 months ago.

What makes you think he wouldn't stonewall and claim executive privilege with an independent prosecutor?

Because right now they have the "this is a political stunt with the election coming up!" card, which is an absolutely believable card, considering the accusers are far from "independent" and specifically because Issa has a history of acrimony towards Holder even *before* he was a chairman of that commission.

Stonewalling an actual independent investigation is much more damning, because, objectively, there's simply no partisan card to play.

[TeyshaBlue]

I was unaware there was a "damnable" metric for these events.

Stonewalling = Stonewalling.

[CosmicCowboy]

Because right now they have the "this is a political stunt with the election coming up!" card, which is an absolutely believable card, considering the accusers are far from "independent" and specifically because Issa has a history of acrimony towards Holder even *before* he was a chairman of that commission.

Stonewalling an actual independent investigation is much more damning, because, objectively, there's simply no partisan card to play.

If he had given them the documents 8 months ago it wouldn't be right before the election.

[ElNono]

I was unaware there was a "damnable" metric for these events.
Stonewalling = Stonewalling.

Well, for starters we don't know if an independent investigation would elicit the same stonewalling. One thing that would be different in that case is that they could request the documents to be sealed, and they couldn't be used for a fishing expedition. This is obviously a request that would go nowhere in the current "investigation".


If he had given them the documents 8 months ago it wouldn't be right before the election.

If he didn't get the documents 8 months ago, why they just moved with a contempt vote? The timing of moves like these are exactly what makes this whole thing look like political gamesmanship.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Issa was on record stating that he was going to investigate the hell out of the administration right after the right wing took over congress... give him credit for doing exectly that..

[CosmicCowboy]

President Obama’s attempt to invoke executive privilege to forestall contempt-of-Congress proceedings against Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. failed. Instead, the claim elevates the dispute between the administration and Capitol Hill to a new and troubling level. The operative question now is, what did the president know and when did he know it?

The House Oversight and Government Reform Committee voted Wednesday to recommend a contempt charge against Mr. Holder. Since October, the Justice Department has refused to respond to a subpoena seeking 1,300 pages of documents related to the botched Fast and Furious Mexican gunrunning operation. Negotiations between the Justice Department and committee Chairman Darrell E. Issa, California Republican, broke down, and the contempt recommendation followed.

Mr. Obama’s last-minute move to extend the umbrella of executive privilege raises the question of whether the president or his staff had extensive prior knowledge of the operation, because this privilege can only be invoked when the chief executive’s office is involved. “Until now, everyone believed that the decisions regarding Fast and Furious were confined to the Department of Justice,” said Michael Steel, spokesman for House Speaker John A. Boehner, Ohio Republican. “The White House decision to invoke executive privilege implies that White House officials were either involved in the Fast and Furious operation or the cover-up that followed.”

Mr. Holder claims the documents in question are internal and deliberative and thus are records that traditionally are removed from congressional oversight. The committee is investigating the role Mr. Holder played in these very deliberations and how much he knew about the operation. He swore under oath that his involvement was limited and came late in the game, but he is withholding evidence that could either support or undercut his testimony. White House intervention gives the appearance that Mr. Holder’s stonewalling was not to protect himself from a perjury charge, but to conceal hitherto unknown Oval Office involvement in Fast and Furious. This also may explain why Mr. Holder said that what should have been a routine investigation could lead to a “constitutional crisis.”

Mr. Obama has an affinity for exerting unilateral power, so the attempt to extend executive privilege ought not to come as a surprise. Former President Bill Clinton made no such effort when his attorney general, Janet Reno, faced a contempt charge from the same committee in 1998. That dispute was resolved eventually without any broad claims of authority even though Mr. Clinton did exercise the privilege on 14 other occasions.

The danger in the administration’s strategy is that congressional investigators may already have obtained documents by other means. Earlier this month, Mr. Issa revealed that an anonymous whistleblower had provided wiretap applications related to Fast and Furious that had been under a federal court seal. Those papers by themselves probably have no bearing on Mr. Holder’s case or on the matter of White House participation, but it is possible that Mr. Issa may yet obtain other material directly contradicting Mr. Holder’s sworn testimony or revealing White House involvement. It remains to be seen whether this investigation will produce a smoking gun.

The Washington Times

[clambake]

the wash. times? pffft

now.....if it was the post.....

[George Gervin's Afro]

President Obama’s attempt to invoke executive privilege to forestall contempt-of-Congress proceedings against Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. failed. Instead, the claim elevates the dispute between the administration and Capitol Hill to a new and troubling level. The operative question now is, what did the president know and when did he know it?

The House Oversight and Government Reform Committee voted Wednesday to recommend a contempt charge against Mr. Holder. Since October, the Justice Department has refused to respond to a subpoena seeking 1,300 pages of documents related to the botched Fast and Furious Mexican gunrunning operation. Negotiations between the Justice Department and committee Chairman Darrell E. Issa, California Republican, broke down, and the contempt recommendation followed.

Mr. Obama’s last-minute move to extend the umbrella of executive privilege raises the question of whether the president or his staff had extensive prior knowledge of the operation, because this privilege can only be invoked when the chief executive’s office is involved. “Until now, everyone believed that the decisions regarding Fast and Furious were confined to the Department of Justice,” said Michael Steel, spokesman for House Speaker John A. Boehner, Ohio Republican. “The White House decision to invoke executive privilege implies that White House officials were either involved in the Fast and Furious operation or the cover-up that followed.”

Mr. Holder claims the documents in question are internal and deliberative and thus are records that traditionally are removed from congressional oversight. The committee is investigating the role Mr. Holder played in these very deliberations and how much he knew about the operation. He swore under oath that his involvement was limited and came late in the game, but he is withholding evidence that could either support or undercut his testimony. White House intervention gives the appearance that Mr. Holder’s stonewalling was not to protect himself from a perjury charge, but to conceal hitherto unknown Oval Office involvement in Fast and Furious. This also may explain why Mr. Holder said that what should have been a routine investigation could lead to a “constitutional crisis.”

Mr. Obama has an affinity for exerting unilateral power, so the attempt to extend executive privilege ought not to come as a surprise. Former President Bill Clinton made no such effort when his attorney general, Janet Reno, faced a contempt charge from the same committee in 1998. That dispute was resolved eventually without any broad claims of authority even though Mr. Clinton did exercise the privilege on 14 other occasions.

The danger in the administration’s strategy is that congressional investigators may already have obtained documents by other means. Earlier this month, Mr. Issa revealed that an anonymous whistleblower had provided wiretap applications related to Fast and Furious that had been under a federal court seal. Those papers by themselves probably have no bearing on Mr. Holder’s case or on the matter of White House participation, but it is possible that Mr. Issa may yet obtain other material directly contradicting Mr. Holder’s sworn testimony or revealing White House involvement. It remains to be seen whether this investigation will produce a smoking gun.

The Washington Times

Clinton didn't have to deal with this congress... these guys in congress are sandusky creepy..

[ElNono]

Mr. Obama’s last-minute move to extend the umbrella of executive privilege raises the question of whether the president or his staff had extensive prior knowledge of the operation, because this privilege can only be invoked when the chief executive’s office is involved.

That part isn't true. See Hiss-Chambers case during Truman's administration, Army–McCarthy hearings during Eisenhower's administration.

deja vu (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/29/washington/29bush.html?ex=1340769600&en=84a2d395fc9d23ec&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss), btw.

[ElNono]

From that link above... "This is a further shift by the Bush administration into Nixonian stonewalling and more evidence of their disdain for our system of checks and balances,” Mr. Leahy said." :lmao

[boutons_deux]

He failed to build a credible case or a credible coalition for his initiative. After a day of increasingly ridiculous posturing, Issa secured the contempt citation he sought. But is came on a straight party-line vote that rendered the decision all but meaningless.

The chairman's heavy-handed style invoted the reproach that the contempt vote was "nothing more than a political witch hunt," as People for the American Way president Michael Keegan termed it.

“To be sure, Congress has a legitimate interest in investigating Operation Fast and Furious, but Chairman Issa and Republican majority on the Committee appear to be more interested in scoring political points than in getting to the bottom of what happened," argued Keegan, who added that, “The hoops the Committee is demanding the Attorney General jump through illustrate that these contempt hearings are as partisan as they are extreme. Over the course of this ‘investigation,’ the Committee has ordered the A.G. to produce documents whose confidentiality is protected by federal law, has refused to subpoena Bush Administration officials to testify about their knowledge of the operation during their time in office, has refused to allow public testimony from officials whose testimony counters Issa’s partisan narrative, and has repeatedly rejected the A.G.’s efforts to accommodate the committee, making compliance all but impossible."

http://www.thenation.com/blog/168505/darrell-issa-shows-contemptible-disregard-constitution?rel=emailNation#

[mavs>spurs]

The day all this stops is the day we find our balls and try a politician/high ranking official for high crimes and make an example. Dude got busted arming the cartels for one of 2 reasons:

1) false flag operation to push more gun control

2) to arm the cartel that is loyal to us so they can kill off the competition

You know it, I know it, we all know it.

[Wild Cobra]

Rachel Maddow address Youni, CC and WC directly :blah

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/ns/msnbc_tv-rachel_maddow_show/#47898272
LOL....

The Mad Cow addressing us?

LOL...

LOL...

You can't be serious...

Are you going to invoke Randi Rhodes next?

[Wild Cobra]

Actually it may help him. It distracts attention from his fucked up handling of the economy.
I think there will be enough political commercial money to run both issues and more.

[Wild Cobra]

how did HUSSEIN mishandle the economy?

It's a Repug economy, fucked up with Repug war, Repug tax cuts, Repug deregulation of finance, Repug states laying off 100Ks of public employees, Repugs blocking any stimulus appropriate to the size of the Banksters' Great Depression, etc, etc.
Typical ShazBot reply.

When will you have something worth listening to?

[Wild Cobra]

in case you didn't notice, i'm cheering with red pompoms.
But we know better. We know they are blue in your case. Looks like we need to ask the owners of this web site to add the same animation with blue pom poms.

[Wild Cobra]

And yes, I think the gun walking was a policy that came straight from the top of the justice department and possibly even the white house.
Obama's executive order makes it more likely, in my view, that Obama approved the operation.