Obamacare decision announced...

[CosmicCowboy]

Tomorrow.


Gotcha bitches!...:lol

[boutons_deux]

real clear politics thinks "balls n strikes" Roberts will write the decision, since he didn't write any of the recent decisions.

[FromWayDowntown]

real clear politics thinks "balls n strikes" Roberts will write the decision, since he didn't write any of the recent decisions.

Tom Goldstein of SCOTUSblog, who watches that Court about as closely as anyone and has been quite prescient about outcomes in the past, agrees on the likelihood that the Chief Justice writes the principal opinion (in a landmark case of this sort, one would think that the Chief Justice -- who assigns the opinion writing task for whichever side of the case he happens to be on -- would keep that assignment for himself).

Goldstein nevertheless predicts, with some hesitation, that the mandate will survive this challenge in some form or fashion.

http://www.scotusblog.com/2012/06/in-the-end/

[z0sa]

Did you know that if you hold the cursor over the topic area for a moment, it will show you the first sentence or two of the post?

[TeyshaBlue]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/teyshablue/You-Lie-Bitch-that-is-not-funny-and-you-know-it.jpg

[boutons_deux]

Why I Hope SCOTUS Strikes Down Obamacare

It's likely the Supreme Court's ruling on Obamacare will be influenced by politics instead of historical precedent.

Since John Roberts' appointment as Chief Justice, SCOTUS has ruled in favor of corporate America's chief lobbying institution, the US Chamber of Commerce, in all seven cases where the Chamber took one side or the other. The Chamber has openly stated that the individual mandate can't be separated from the Affordable Care Act.

There won't be any middle ground for SCOTUS to take: they either keep the law intact, or strike all of it. Clarence Thomas' family receiving $1.5 million from anti-healthcare-reform special interests will undoubtedly play a part in his decision.

http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/272-39/12121-focus-why-i-hope-scotus-strikes-down-obamacare

[johnsmith]

Good one?

[Wild Cobra]

Why I Hope SCOTUS Strikes Down Obamacare

It's likely the Supreme Court's ruling on Obamacare will be influenced by politics instead of historical precedent.

Since John Roberts' appointment as Chief Justice, SCOTUS has ruled in favor of corporate America's chief lobbying institution, the US Chamber of Commerce, in all seven cases where the Chamber took one side or the other. The Chamber has openly stated that the individual mandate can't be separated from the Affordable Care Act.

There won't be any middle ground for SCOTUS to take: they either keep the law intact, or strike all of it. Clarence Thomas' family receiving $1.5 million from anti-healthcare-reform special interests will undoubtedly play a part in his decision.

http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/272-39/12121-focus-why-i-hope-scotus-strikes-down-obamacare
Let me get this strait.

You are saying that the words of a democrat politician, who was a former Clinton aide, is stating a fact while running for office?

Where is the evidence behind his accusation please.

[101A]

Why I Hope SCOTUS Strikes Down Obamacare

It's likely the Supreme Court's ruling on Obamacare will be influenced by politics instead of historical precedent.

Since John Roberts' appointment as Chief Justice, SCOTUS has ruled in favor of corporate America's chief lobbying institution, the US Chamber of Commerce, in all seven cases where the Chamber took one side or the other. The Chamber has openly stated that the individual mandate can't be separated from the Affordable Care Act.

There won't be any middle ground for SCOTUS to take: they either keep the law intact, or strike all of it. Clarence Thomas' family receiving $1.5 million from anti-healthcare-reform special interests will undoubtedly play a part in his decision.

http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/272-39/12121-focus-why-i-hope-scotus-strikes-down-obamacare


Because Thomas was on the fence? The only thing that would be more surprising than Thomas voting to uphold the mandate would be Sotomayor voting to overturn.

Roberts and Kennedy are the only votes we don't know (on the mandate).

[boutons_deux]

Boehner vows to repeal ‘Obamacare’ if it survives court challenge

Republican House Speaker John Boehner on Wednesday vowed to repeal all of the Affordable Care Act if the U.S. Supreme Court did not strike down the health care reform law.

“Now we all know the Supreme Court is likely to make some announcement about ObamaCare tomorrow,” he said. “We made it pretty clear, and I’ll make it clear one more time: if the court does not strike down the entire law, the House will move to repeal what’s left of it.”

“ObamaCare is driving up the cost of health care and making it harder for small businesses to hire new workers. Our focus has been the economy, and it will continue to be the economy.”

Boehner accused President Barack Obama of favoring campaigning over creating jobs. He said that House Republicans had passed more than 30 jobs bills. Most those bills involved tax cuts. :lol :lol :lol

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/06/27/boehner-vows-to-repeal-obamacare-if-it-survives-court-challenge/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheRawStory+%28The+Raw+Story% 29&utm_content=Google+Reader

[Wild Cobra]

Because Thomas was on the fence? The only thing that would be more surprising than Thomas voting to uphold the mandate would be Sotomayor voting to overturn.

Roberts and Kennedy are the only votes we don't know (on the mandate).
This Thomas/money thing is funny. I wonder if any of the resident liberals here looked up the facts over that. I'm just waiting for them to make fools of themselves more than ShazBot already has.

[mavs>spurs]

if it gets overturned, will the current policy still stay in effect for like the rest of the year? i just need it to last a couple more months tbh

[Nbadan]

many liberals wish it would be overturned and usher in the era of single payer, but I think the law will be upheld at least for the most part...

[scott]

This is an especially interesting case since the repeal of Obamacare has been a centerpiece of Republican campaigns. If it gets thrown out by the court... then the entire GOP has lost it's main battle cry and the narrative changes.

If it gets upheld, it's a "win" for Obama, but it just strengthens the GOP's campaign issue and may drive voter turnout for the GOP in November.

If it's overturned by the court, Obama faces a defeat of his signature legislation, but then can rally around the idea of single-payer or universal health care (which are considered further left, but are likely to face similar constitutional challenges).

If the court upholds it, Obama has to continue to campaign on the support of a divisive law.

[Drachen]

if it gets overturned, will the current policy still stay in effect for like the rest of the year? i just need it to last a couple more months tbh

If it is ruled unconstitutional, then it is not unconstitutional in a couple of months, it is unconstitutional now.

[jack sommerset]

I'll be surprised if this healthcare law stays as is. God bless

[Drachen]

CNN reporting that the mandate is not a valid use of the commerce clause.

[Drachen]

Scotusblog says this "The individual mandate survives as a tax"

[Drachen]

So the mandate is constitutional. Chief Justice Roberts joins the left of the Court.

[Drachen]

The bottom line: the entire ACA is upheld, with the exception that the federal government's power to terminate states' Medicaid funds is narrowly read.

[CosmicCowboy]

: the entire ACA is upheld, with the exception that the federal government's power to terminate states' Medicaid funds is narrowly read.

[CosmicCowboy]

wow

[Drachen]

Basically the government cannot use the commerce clause to justify the mandate, but can use the taxing powers of the congress to do so.

[CosmicCowboy]

In that case, they need to raise the tax enough to pay for the health care they are providing. $400 is a joke.

[MannyIsGod]

I actually wanted this mandate gone. Blah.

[Th'Pusher]

I actually wanted this mandate gone. Blah.

Don't worry Boehner has vowed to repeal it.

[Drachen]

In that case, they need to raise the tax enough to pay for the health care they are providing. $400 is a joke.

.. or 2% of your income whichever is higher.

[MannyIsGod]

Favorite tweet so far because its true:

GOP can still rejoice: ruling sticks it to the poor

[Drachen]

it was roberts, not kennedy that crossed.

[scott]

it was roberts, not kennedy that crossed.

Just about to post how interesting this is. I thought it would either be 5-4 Overturned or 6-3 Upheld. Didn't even think of 5-4 Upheld for my Fantasy Team.

[coyotes_geek]

Don't worry Boehner has vowed to repeal it.

Nothing more than a symbolic gesture at this point.

[leemajors]

Conan:


Thanksgiving with the Supreme Court is going to be so awkward this year.

[scott]

Sarah Palin comin' in hot!


@SarahPalinUSA
Obama lied to the American people. Again. He said it wasn't a tax. Obama lies; freedom dies.

[coyotes_geek]

Palin, while a ditz, does have a point. The ruling does give republicans ammo to call out Obama for raising taxes.

[Drachen]

Sarah Palin comin' in hot!

LOL how lame.

[ducks]

The Supreme Court has upheld the centerpiece of President Obama's health care overhaul, in effect allowing the law to survive.

In a 5-4 decision unveiled Thursday, the court ruled as constitutional the so-called individual mandate requiring most Americans to obtain health insurance starting in 2014.

The ruling is a victory for the president, ensuring for now that his signature domestic policy achievement remains intact.

It also ensures that the law will play a prominent role in the general election campaign, as Republican candidate Mitt Romney vows to repeal the law if elected.

Chief Justice John Roberts, who was appointed during a Republican administration, joined the four left-leaning justices on the bench in making the decision.

The ruling relied on a technical explanation of how the individual mandate could be categorized. Roberts, in the opinion, said the mandate could not be upheld under the Constitution's Commerce Clause. However, it could be upheld under the government's power to tax.

"The Affordable Care Act is constitutional in part and unconstitutional in part The individual mandate cannot be upheld as an exercise of Congress's power under the Commerce Clause," Roberts wrote. "That Clause authorizes Congress to regulate interstate commerce, not to order individuals to engage it. In this case, however, it is reasonable to construe what Congress has done as increasing taxes on those who have a certain amount of income, but choose to go without health insurance. Such legislation is within Congress's power to tax."

[CosmicCowboy]

.. or 2% of your income whichever is higher.

2% of income is still much cheaper than buying insurance.

[Drachen]

2% of income is still much cheaper than buying insurance.

Agreed, but you can pay x% of your income for nothing, or X+y% of your income for something.

it is a decision each individual has to make, but for someone making 50k, they can either pay 2k for coverage or 1k for nothing. seems kinda silly.

[Th'Pusher]

Palin, while a ditz, does have a point. The ruling does give republicans ammo to call out Obama for raising taxes.

The Weekly Standard jumping on the new GOP talking point:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/obama-i-absolutely-reject-notion-it-s-tax_647927.html

[scott]

The argument for requiring have their own health insurance is that you make folks responsible for paying for their own health care (when an insured person goes to the hospital, everyone else pays for it).

Now that the Supreme Court has ruled that it can force every legal resident to purchase insurance, it will be interesting to see how this plays into the Immigration Debate. So now what happens when an illegal immigrant with no health insurance shows up at a hospital?

[Agloco]

if it gets overturned, will the current policy still stay in effect for like the rest of the year? i just need it to last a couple more months tbh

Moot point tbh.

[Th'Pusher]

2% of income is still much cheaper than buying insurance.

And what happens to the guy who paid the tax who shows up in the emergency room?

[Drachen]

The argument for requiring have their own health insurance is that you make folks responsible for paying for their own health care (when an insured person goes to the hospital, everyone else pays for it).

Now that the Supreme Court has ruled that it can force every legal resident to purchase insurance, it will be interesting to see how this plays into the Immigration Debate. So now what happens when an illegal immigrant with no health insurance shows up at a hospital?

I would say nothing since the hospital can't check their immigration status. The hospital doesn't know if it is a citizen who decided to pay the tax, or an illegal immigrant.

[Drachen]

And what happens to the guy who paid the tax who shows up in the emergency room?

well, at least the government is getting SOME money from them to compensate for the "free" healthcare that they used.

[CosmicCowboy]

The argument for requiring have their own health insurance is that you make folks responsible for paying for their own health care (when an insured person goes to the hospital, everyone else pays for it).

Now that the Supreme Court has ruled that it can force every legal resident to purchase insurance, it will be interesting to see how this plays into the Immigration Debate. So now what happens when an illegal immigrant with no health insurance shows up at a hospital?

You know what will happen. They will still get treatment for free.

[coyotes_geek]

The argument for requiring have their own health insurance is that you make folks responsible for paying for their own health care (when an insured person goes to the hospital, everyone else pays for it).

Now that the Supreme Court has ruled that it can force every legal resident to purchase insurance, it will be interesting to see how this plays into the Immigration Debate. So now what happens when an illegal immigrant with no health insurance shows up at a hospital?

The failure to address how illegals will be handled is one of the major shortcomings of the law.


I would say nothing since the hospital can't check their immigration status. The hospital doesn't know if it is a citizen who decided to pay the tax, or an illegal immigrant.

Isn't the hospital now forced into a defacto check on immigration status? If all citizens are now forced to have insurance, non-citizens should be the only ones left without it.

[Juggity]

Excellent news. Roberts made a principled decision here.

[Agloco]

2% of income is still much cheaper than buying insurance.

Depends on what your income is no?

[DarrinS]

Flashback

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2009/09/obama-mandate-is-not-a-tax/

[CosmicCowboy]

Depends on what your income is no?

Just average quality insurance costs $400 a month at least. You would have to make $250,000 a year for 2% to be more.

[Agloco]

Flashback

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2009/09/obama-mandate-is-not-a-tax/

Semantics tbh. People are ponying up regardless of the moniker used.

[scott]

You know what will happen. They will still get treatment for free.

Of course, but that's kind of where I'm going.

Perhaps I'm the only one who feels this way (and this is likely better suited for its own thread), but I think it stresses the need for serious immigration reform.

The bottom line, is that so long as relative quality of life differences exist between nations, you will NEVER put a stop to immigration. The idea that you can is naive. One of the basic elements of human nature is the animal instinct to survive and seek out the best living situation possible.

My person opinion is that EVERY HUMAN BEING should have the right to try to do best for themselves and their families. If you were a poor Mexican, you'd be trying your damnedest to get here too.

The idea that we already have a system by which immigrants can come here legally is laughable. For starters, there are quotas in place which by default create the incentive for people to bypass the system in order seek a better life for themselves, the same goes with work permits and visas.

Call it a Guest Worker program, or whatever you want, but we need a system by which people can come to this country without a path to citizenship but still pay taxes. Any other immigration solution is a waste of time.

[Agloco]

Just average quality insurance costs $400 a month at least. You would have to make $250,000 a year for 2% to be more.

:tu

Thanks for doing the math. This confirms my suspicions.

[scott]

Just average quality insurance costs $400 a month at least. You would have to make $250,000 a year for 2% to be more.

This is a good point, though if we are trying to net out the fiscal effects of the law, the tax need not be equal to the average cost of insurance, it needs to be equal to the average cost of the health care an uninsured person receives (which may be greater or less than the $400/month you cited).

[Drachen]

Isn't the hospital now forced into a defacto check on immigration status? If all citizens are now forced to have insurance, non-citizens should be the only ones left without it.

No citizens are forced to have insurance. Citizens are forced to EITHER have insurance OR pay the tax.

[boutons_deux]

the 4 JINOs against, no surprise.

but was Kennedy or umpire Roberts the 5th for?

up next:

SCALIA SAYS ALL Y'ALL GOTTA BUY BROCCOLI! :lol :lol :lol

what a fucking legal cretin

[coyotes_geek]

No citizens are forced to have insurance. Citizens are forced to EITHER have insurance OR pay the tax.

Is the hospital going to have to report the uninsured people they treat to the government so that the government can be sure they're paying the tax? Any way you cut it, it sure seems to me like this law has unintentionally created a system where illegals are identifed.

[boutons_deux]

The failure to address how illegals will be handled is one of the major shortcomings of the law.



Isn't the hospital now forced into a defacto check on immigration status? If all citizens are now forced to have insurance, non-citizens should be the only ones left without it.

illegals, like uninsured, receive "free care" (compassinate) care only at taxpayer funded facilities.

Now we have 40M uninsured at least paying something in (buy for-profit insurance or pay the penalty).

The real problem is that medical care and insurance are exorbitantly, unjustifiably expensive. any attempts to address that gets shouted down by screams and whining from the sick-care richies.


solution:

govt-employed, govt-financed doctors working on salary, not for fee-for-service,

and a hard-core, univeral no-profit public insurance option, taken out of every paycheck.

[ElNono]

I'll be surprised if this healthcare law stays as is. God bless

rememba det time when you thought the SCOTUS would kill it? :lol

[MannyIsGod]

Is the hospital going to have to report the uninsured people they treat to the government so that the government can be sure they're paying the tax? Any way you cut it, it sure seems to me like this law has unintentionally created a system where illegals are identifed.

I don't think so. I think you're reaching.

[boutons_deux]

Is the hospital going to have to report the uninsured people they treat to the government so that the government can be sure they're paying the tax? Any way you cut it, it sure seems to me like this law has unintentionally created a system where illegals are identifed.

somewhat, but a long time ago, the humanitarian decision was made that no taxpayer-financed ER could deny care.

for-profit facilities could always, and still can, let you bleed, etc to death

[scott]

govt-employed, govt-financed doctors working on salary, not for fee-for-service

I see bright individuals lining up in droves to best a government salaried doctor.

[leemajors]

illegals, like uninsured, receive "free care" (compassinate) care only at taxpayer funded facilities.

Now we have 40M uninsured at least paying something in (buy for-profit insurance or pay the penalty).

The real problem is that medical care and insurance are exorbitantly, unjustifiably expensive. any attempts to address that gets shouted down by screams and whining from the sick-care richies.


solution:

govt-employed, govt-financed doctors working on salary, not for fee-for-service,

and a hard-core, univeral no-profit public insurance option, taken out of every paycheck.

I think we can all agree on this. I'm very, very glad my employer pays half of my insurance (esp since I have a child).

[scott]

I don't think so. I think you're reaching.

Don't think he is reaching at all.

This system creates a situation where every person in America legally pays for Health Care in one way or another, and illegal aliens don't.

[Agloco]

somewhat, but a long time ago, the humanitarian decision was made that no taxpayer-financed ER could deny care.

for-profit facilities could always, and still can, let you bleed, etc to death

This couldn't be further from the truth. Any accredited health care institution is obligated to treat and stabilize the condition you came in with. Afterwards, transfer is arranged to a county facility.

[Agloco]

I don't think so. I think you're reaching.

Gotta respectfully disagree here Manny. Any illegal coming in for care would be on record as being a non-payer. Intentional or not, a list would be created over time.

Now, what is done with said information is another matter entirely. That almost certainly would become an issue down the road though.

[coyotes_geek]

I don't think so. I think you're reaching.

There's got to be some mechanism for the government to know which citizens have insurance and which ones have to pay the tax. How is it a reach to think somebody is going to notice if you're not on either list?

[Wild Cobra]

Palin, while a ditz, does have a point. The ruling does give republicans ammo to call out Obama for raising taxes.
He's gonna lose big in November.

[clambake]

He's gonna lose big in November.

and you will be taxed in 2014.

[scott]

He's gonna lose big in November.

He might lose, but it assuredly won't be "big".

Until a candidate so amazing to sweep us all off our feet comes along, there will be no more "big" Presidential wins. They'll all be close.

[Wild Cobra]

Now that the Supreme Court has ruled that it can force every legal resident to purchase insurance, it will be interesting to see how this plays into the Immigration Debate. So now what happens when an illegal immigrant with no health insurance shows up at a hospital?
Hopefully, we will see more deportations.

[boutons_deux]

I see bright individuals lining up in droves to best a government salaried doctor.

your anti-govt bias is obvious, asshole

do you liked having the sick-are industry suck out $100Ks of your income over your working years?

not every little, or non-major, treatment needs 5-star delivery in a 5-star facility by $500K+/year doctors.

100K/year are killed by medical errors in those 5-start medical factories.

I'm sure there are plenty of young people wanting practice medicine on a salary rather than wasting months per years working to cover overhead

[Juggity]

He's gonna lose big in November.

Given his legislative accomplishments, personal popularity, and the court backing his signature achievement, I'd say the chances of your prophecy coming true are increasingly unlikely.

[scott]

your anti-govt bias is obvious, asshole

do you liked having the sick-are industry suck out $100Ks of your income over your working years?

not every little, or non-major, treatment needs 5-star delivery in a 5-star facility by $500K+/year doctors.

100K/year are killed by medical errors in those 5-start medical factories.

I'm sure there are plenty of young people wanting practice medicine on a salary rather than wasting months per years working to cover overhead

LOL, you think I'm a Republican and SnakeBoy thinks I'm a Democrat.

I think that means I'm exactly where I need to be.

[Drachen]

Is the hospital going to have to report the uninsured people they treat to the government so that the government can be sure they're paying the tax? Any way you cut it, it sure seems to me like this law has unintentionally created a system where illegals are identifed.

Why would they need to report to the government? The government will already know.

[coyotes_geek]

Now, what is done with said information is another matter entirely. That almost certainly would become an issue down the road though.

I can see Arizona and Texas racing to see who can crank out a law first that requires health facilities that receive medicare/medicaid funds from the state to report uninsured people.

[Wild Cobra]

Depends on what your income is no?
2% just isn't enough to make much a difference. most people who make the $50k and more have employer healthcare that they pay part of. My part is already in excess of $1k annual. My employers part is in excess of $5k annual.

[Agloco]

illegals, like uninsured, receive "free care" (compassinate) care only at taxpayer funded facilities.

Now we have 40M uninsured at least paying something in (buy for-profit insurance or pay the penalty).

The real problem is that medical care and insurance are exorbitantly, unjustifiably expensive. any attempts to address that gets shouted down by screams and whining from the sick-care richies.


solution:

govt-employed, govt-financed doctors working on salary, not for fee-for-service,

and a hard-core, univeral no-profit public insurance option, taken out of every paycheck.

I agree about the costs. They are outrageous.

I disagree with the solution though, unless salaries are kept in line with what they are now. The Mayo Clinic uses this model and it works fairly well. The downside, is that it takes quite a long time to get an appointment to see their physicians (the workload is also reduced). Granted, they are supported by numerous endowments, etc.

[Wild Cobra]

and you will be taxed in 2014.
If my taxes increase of this, I will really be pissed. I already pay out for insurance.

[coyotes_geek]

Why would they need to report to the government? The government will already know.

How? Honest quesiton, I'm really not sure how the government is going to track who has insurance and who doesn't.

[DarrinS]

I wonder if Chris Matthews still stands by this comment he made the other day?





Does anyone wonder like I do what this Supreme Court – the one personified by Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas — would have done with the landmark decisions in the post-World War II era. I wonder if this court would have backed desegregation in the Brown case. I doubt this pack of conservatives, which includes Chief Justice John Roberts, Sam Alito and Anthony Kennedy, would have voted to knock down “separate but equal” in the 1950s.

I doubt this group would have removed organized prayer from public schools back in the 1960s – that decision that ignited the moral majority.

I doubt that this court would have recognized a woman’s right to decide on an abortion in the 1970s.

Let me proffer a tougher judgment: would this court – voting as it does today – have upheld the 1964 Civil Rights Bill, which declared it illegal to refuse access to someone because of race to a restaurant, hotel or a gas station restroom?

Would Scalia, Thomas, Kennedy and Alito have approved such a decision, or would they have joined the dissent? Well, maybe Kennedy would have.

The fact is that we have the most conservative court since the early 1930s, and maybe more conservative than that. These justices, led by Scalia, believe in original intent. They want to judge cases the way the Founding Fathers would. Well, the Founding Fathers – need I remind us all – wrote slavery into the Constitution. It took a Civil War and the 13th Amendment to get it out.

[clambake]

I wonder if Chris Matthews still stands by this comment he made the other day?

maybe. though you're probably the only one who heard it.

[2centsworth]

I'm proud of the court. A non-partisan decision. Calling the mandate a tax brings clarity. Nothing in this world is free. Expect that tax to be 2400 per year in no time.

[TeyshaBlue]

LOL, you think I'm a Republican and SnakeBoy thinks I'm a Democrat.

I think that means I'm exactly where I need to be.

bots are inherently binary.:lol

[MannyIsGod]

Don't think he is reaching at all.

This system creates a situation where every person in America legally pays for Health Care in one way or another, and illegal aliens don't.

Paying the tax is not paying for healthcare.

[DarrinS]

Tweet from DNC executive director, Patrick Gaspard

classy

http://static01.mediaite.com/med/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/gaspard.jpg

[mercos]

While I don't like the mandate (I'd prefer single payer) the ruling is logical. I've thought for quite some time that the law's biggest legal mistake was not calling the fine a tax, because that's what it is. It's an emergency room tax. Buying insurance gets you an exemption. Pretty simple concept. The reasons for not calling it that are obviously political, as taxes are the devil in politics, unless they are for rich people. Surprisingly, the Supreme Court looked through the smoke and mirrors and interpreted the law for what it was. I am glad they specifically said the commerce clause does not permit the mandate, as that could have opened pandora's box. Good day for President Obama, and all the people that benefit from the ACA.

[boutons_deux]

I wonder if Chris Matthews still stands by this comment he made the other day?

the 4 Repug/VRWC JINO extemist Repug hacks went solidly as predicted, so Matthews was right on those 4.

Kennedy was a swinger.

My guess is that umpire Roberts just might have thought he better, for his place in history as "the Roberts court", call this ball in favor of Human-Americans and progress of American civilization.

[MannyIsGod]

I think you guys are really overestimating the systems ability to track undocumented people through further documentation when every instance of this type of situation already in place doesn't.

[Wild Cobra]

Paying the tax is not paying for healthcare.
That's probably what will happen. They system will probably stay the same, with the insured paying for the uninsured, and our rates not decreasing. Like all dedicated funds, congress will spend it where ever they please.

[MannyIsGod]

Tweet from DNC executive director, Patrick Gaspard

classy

http://static01.mediaite.com/med/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/gaspard.jpg

Hahahahahahahhaha your butt hurt is so high. He's talking directly to you, bitch.

[scott]

Paying the tax is not paying for healthcare.

Yes, it precisely is. It is funding the payments that will be made on your behalf when you use the emergency room without insurance.

[CosmicCowboy]

Of course, but that's kind of where I'm going.

Perhaps I'm the only one who feels this way (and this is likely better suited for its own thread), but I think it stresses the need for serious immigration reform.

The bottom line, is that so long as relative quality of life differences exist between nations, you will NEVER put a stop to immigration. The idea that you can is naive. One of the basic elements of human nature is the animal instinct to survive and seek out the best living situation possible.

My person opinion is that EVERY HUMAN BEING should have the right to try to do best for themselves and their families. If you were a poor Mexican, you'd be trying your damnedest to get here too.

The idea that we already have a system by which immigrants can come here legally is laughable. For starters, there are quotas in place which by default create the incentive for people to bypass the system in order seek a better life for themselves, the same goes with work permits and visas.

Call it a Guest Worker program, or whatever you want, but we need a system by which people can come to this country without a path to citizenship but still pay taxes. Any other immigration solution is a waste of time.

I totally agree and am on record in here as saying the same thing.

[scott]

I've thought for quite some time that the law's biggest legal mistake was not calling the fine a tax, because that's what it is. It's an emergency room tax. Buying insurance gets you an exemption. Pretty simple concept.

This is exactly correct.

[MannyIsGod]

How? Honest quesiton, I'm really not sure how the government is going to track who has insurance and who doesn't.
If they rely on hospitals then they're not going to get much info since most people don't visit a hospital already.

[scott]

I totally agree and am on record in here as saying the same thing.

High fives!

[ChumpDumper]

I wonder if Chris Matthews still stands by this comment he made the other day?Explain to us why he wouldn't.

[MannyIsGod]

Yes, it precisely is. It is funding the payments that will be made on your behalf when you use the emergency room without insurance.

I feel as though if I you disagree with me on this point I'm probably wrong so I'll go with what you're saying.

[TheMACHINE]

Is this really the biggest tax increase ever?

[TheMACHINE]

Also...is the $400 in addition to my normal insurance?

[scott]

I feel as though if I you disagree with me on this point I'm probably wrong so I'll go with what you're saying.

LOL... I'm filled with this... sudden... sense of power.

I like it.

[CosmicCowboy]

Also...is the $400 in addition to my normal insurance?

Nope. You pay $400 and you don't have to buy insurance. Get cancer and insurance companies have to sell you insurance at the price they charge everyone else and then they have to pay the 100s of thousands for your treatment.

[Wild Cobra]

Obama care...

The biggest tax increase in modern US history...

News at 11...

[Wild Cobra]

Any tax experts out there?

What do you guys think will happen. If this is to actually be a tax, then will we all be taxed? Will what we already pay who have employer insurance become a tax deduction subject to change at the whim of politicians?

Ouch...

I see a loss of future income...

[Das Texan]

I'll take health insurance that covers all shit for 2% of my income. Sign me the fuck up.

If this doesnt sound like a steal of a deal then you are in reality a fucking idiot or really dont give a flying fuck about your health.

[scott]

Obama care...

The biggest tax increase in modern US history...

News at 11...

By what measure? You have 30 seconds on the clock, please keep in mind you are competing against Ronald Reagan's 1.82% of GDP in 1982 and increases exceeding 5% of GDP during WWII.

GO!

[coyotes_geek]

If they rely on hospitals then they're not going to get much info since most people don't visit a hospital already.

The hospitals aren't going to make the list but they are going to be very interested in how they're going to get paid to treat someone. They'll need to know whether they're sending a bill to your insurance company or if they're sending a bill to whatever government office is going to handle reimbursments from the tax pool that uninsured citizens are paying into. There's no way to go through that exercise without noticing that someone isn't on either list.

[Wild Cobra]

I'll take health insurance that covers all shit for 2% of my income. Sign me the fuck up.

If this doesnt sound like a steal of a deal then you are in reality a fucking idiot or really dont give a flying fuck about your health.
Maybe it was in the plans all along. SS was reduced from 6.2% to 4.2%. When they increase it back to 6.2%, will they say we are all paying for it now?

[scott]

Any tax experts out there?

What do you guys think will happen. If this is to actually be a tax, then will we all be taxed? Will what we already pay who have employer insurance become a tax deduction subject to change at the whim of politicians?

Ouch...

I see a loss of future income...

LOL, you are a moron. The Supreme Court didn't say they need to change it to be a tax, they said the Taxing Authority of Congress allows the mandate in the way the ACA lays it out.

[Das Texan]

Maybe it was in the plans all along. SS was reduced from 6.2% to 4.2%. When they increase it back to 6.2%, will they say we are all paying for it now?

fine with me tbh.

everyone pays the same. cost of doing business as a citizen of the USA. Available to all citizens regardless of social standing. Sounds like a winning deal to me.

[Wild Cobra]

LOL, you are a moron. The Supreme Court didn't say they need to change it to be a tax, they said the Taxing Authority of Congress allows the mandate in the way the ACA lays it out.
Just the same.

Obama lied. It is a tax.

How about getting to the point of my question instead of nit picking?

[scott]

Just the same.

Obama lied. It is a tax.

How about getting to the point of my question instead of nit picking?


There is no point to your question, because it has no basis in the reality of what is actually happening. I don't bother getting to the point of questions that are, and I apologize for using technical jargon here, fucking stupid.

[ChumpDumper]

Just the same.

Obama lied. It is a tax.

How about getting to the point of my question instead of nit picking?
What is your point?

You made a claim and failed to back it up in any way whatsoever.

[MannyIsGod]

LOL... I'm filled with this... sudden... sense of power.

I like it.

Just on economics, bitch.

[Wild Cobra]

Wow...

A lot of people here:

Wild Cobra, MannyIsGod, ElNono, coyotes_geek, Das Texan, ChumpDumper, CosmicCowboy, FromWayDowntown, rascal, leemajors, boutons_deux, TheMACHINE, George Gervin's Afro, Dr Spur, ducks, DarrinS, mercos, 2centsworth, xeromass, Agloco, cherylsteele, Spurminator

Aren't most of you at work?

[clambake]

Wow...

A lot of people here:


Aren't most of you at work?

i am, but i don't really think of it as work.

[Wild Cobra]

What is your point?

You made a claim and failed to back it up in any way whatsoever.

The point of my question is "how will we be taxed." No need to focus on what you can nitpick, is there? Is it really necessary to find fault in people?

[MannyIsGod]

I'm in calc 3. Its boring and easy.

[CosmicCowboy]

Any tax experts out there?

What do you guys think will happen. If this is to actually be a tax, then will we all be taxed? Will what we already pay who have employer insurance become a tax deduction subject to change at the whim of politicians?

Ouch...

I see a loss of future income...

What they will do is artificially make the "pool" insurance cheaper than private insurance. The law says if you drop your existing insurance policy you can't move to a different company, you have to go into the "pool". They will gradually convert everyone to the pool (with the 50% that currently don't pay income taxes still getting coverage in the pool) and then raise taxes on those that pay taxes to cover the REAL cost of coverage. It's the first ugly step towards single payer.

[TheMACHINE]

will this $400 really cover everything? Sounds like it'll probably get even higher in the short future...then again...im no tax expert.

[scott]

The point of my question is "how will we be taxed." No need to focus on what you can nitpick, is there? Is it really necessary to find fault in people?

The answer to your question is laid out in the ACA, and has been answered in this thread.

If you don't have insurance you will pay a tax/fee/fine/royalty/penance/tribute of $95 in 2014, 2% of income or $395 in 2015, or 2.5% or $695 in 2016.

If you do have insurance, then you pay no tax/fee/fine/royalty/penance/tribute.

[ElNono]

Aren't most of you at work?

I'm working, tbh

[scott]

will this $400 really cover everything? Sounds like it'll probably get even higher in the short future...then again...im no tax expert.

No. It covers NOTHING other than that you won't be denied care at an emergency room if you show up without insurance. You'll still be presented with a bill at the emergency room, and you'll still get dinged on your credit when you don't pay it. But, you'll still be alive.

[ElNono]

No. It covers NOTHING other than that you won't be denied care at an emergency room if you show up without insurance. You'll still be presented with a bill at the emergency room, and you'll still get dinged on your credit when you don't pay it. But, you'll still be alive.

Can you really be denied care at an emergency room even if you don't pay? I would suspect that you do not get denied care, but you do incur in tax evasion if you don't pay your tax bill.

[Das Texan]

No. It covers NOTHING other than that you won't be denied care at an emergency room if you show up without insurance. You'll still be presented with a bill at the emergency room, and you'll still get dinged on your credit when you don't pay it. But, you'll still be alive.

which is why i'd sadly have to keep my piece of shit insurance coverage. too bad this doesnt actually accomplish anything in regards to the rising cost of health care.

[TheMACHINE]

ok so let me get this straight...for people who have insurance already, this does not affect them? Only those who dont have insurance gets affected cuz they have to pay $400?

[CosmicCowboy]

Can you really be denied care at an emergency room even if you don't pay? I would suspect that you do not get denied care, but you do incur in tax evasion if you don't pay your tax bill.

No one is ever denied treatment. Most of the tab for the unpaid treatment is currently covered by higher charges to insured patients and local taxes.

[ElNono]

No one is ever denied treatment. Most of the tab for the unpaid treatment is currently covered by higher charges to insured patients and local taxes.

I know you don't right now, and I suspect that's not changing, although I'm not informed enough to know if this law applies any changes on that respect.

[CosmicCowboy]

ok so let me get this straight...for people who have insurance already, this does not affect them? Only those who dont have insurance gets affected cuz they have to pay $400?

Insured peoples premiums will go up at least 20% to cover the cost of the insurance companies having to accept pre-existing conditions from the ones that were just paying the $400 fee and not buying insurance. Instead of paying the $10,000 for your wife to have a baby, just wait till the third trimester, buy her insurance for $400 a month and then cancel it after the baby is born and the insurance company pays the $10,000.

[baseline bum]

I'm in calc 3. Its boring and easy.

It'll get more fun when you get to Stokes Theorem tbh.

[TeyshaBlue]

Just on economics, bitch.

His beer IQ is noteworthy, n00b!

[ElNono]

Insured peoples premiums will go up at least 20% to cover the cost of the insurance companies having to accept pre-existing conditions from the ones that were just paying the $400 fee and not buying insurance. Instead of paying the $10,000 for your wife to have a baby, just wait till the third trimester, buy her insurance for $400 a month and then cancel it after the baby is born and the insurance company pays the $10,000.

Where do you buy insurance for $400? I've been looking all around here and there's nothing for under $1000 that doesn't have a $10K deductible... And I suspect that's going up...

[Wild Cobra]

will this $400 really cover everything? Sounds like it'll probably get even higher in the short future...then again...im no tax expert.
Seems to me, one way or another, they will have to raise taxes. And by no small amount.

[TheMACHINE]

i think whats concerning is not really even the taxes or obamacare...probably the fact that the government is forcing people to actually purchase something.

[scott]

Insured peoples premiums will go up at least 20% to cover the cost of the insurance companies having to accept pre-existing conditions from the ones that were just paying the $400 fee and not buying insurance. Instead of paying the $10,000 for your wife to have a baby, just wait till the third trimester, buy her insurance for $400 a month and then cancel it after the baby is born and the insurance company pays the $10,000.

That is debatable.

Not saying you are necessarily wrong (because I haven't done the research) but it's debatable.

There are factors of this law that will create downward pressure on premiums, and factors which create upward pressure.

[TeyshaBlue]

Where do you buy insurance for $400? I've been looking all around here and there's nothing for under $1000 that doesn't have a $10K deductible... And I suspect that's going up...

It's not buying insurance, per se. It's taking the $400 tax hit for not having insurance. CC's scenario doesn't make sense if you're equating the tax to an actual premium.

[Wild Cobra]

I'm working, tbh
I wonder how many places lose work productivity, and by how much, with people surfing instead of working...

[TeyshaBlue]

It's not like the mother in the scenario can cancel the tax after delivery.

[ElNono]

BTW, the PCIP monthly premium here (which is subsidized) is in the $600/mo range...

[TeyshaBlue]

I wonder how many places lose work productivity, and by how much, with people surfing instead of working...

I wonder why you would ask such an asinine question in a discussion of healthcare costs.

[Drachen]

Seems to me, one way or another, they will have to raise taxes. And by no small amount.

You do know that we already pay for the uninsured right now, right? This is without those uninsured paying even 400 a year.

[TeyshaBlue]

BTW, the PCIP monthly premium here (which is subsidized) is in the $600/mo range...

Mine too. But since I'm hitting the insurance company for about $173k/year for meds, I'm not bitching about it too much.

[ElNono]

I wonder how many places lose work productivity, and by how much, with people surfing instead of working...

Well, I'm actually a part-owner, so it's in my best interest work gets done. And it is getting done.

[MannyIsGod]

I wonder how much productivity is lost be hiring WC.

[scott]

I wonder how many places lose work productivity, and by how much, with people surfing instead of working...

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=how+much+productivity+is+lost+to+web+surfing

[scott]

I wonder how much productivity is lost be hiring WC.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=can+idiots+do+real+work%3F

[Drachen]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=how+much+productivity+is+lost+to+web+surfing

I love that site.

[ElNono]

Mine too. But since I'm hitting the insurance company for about $173k/year for meds, I'm not bitching about it too much.

We're in the $2K/year range for doctor expenses... basically, can't afford even the subsidized PCIP...

[TeyshaBlue]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=can+idiots+do+real+work%3F

omfg:lmao

[ChumpDumper]

I wonder how many places lose work productivity, and by how much, with people surfing instead of working...You watch DVD box sets at work.

[Drachen]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=can+idiots+do+real+work%3F

OK, you can't do that! I am surfing at work and I was just looked at strangely as I literally LOLed

[ElNono]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=can+idiots+do+real+work%3F

:lol

[TheMACHINE]

i too am self employed and am working.

[Wild Cobra]

The answer to your question is laid out in the ACA, and has been answered in this thread.

If you don't have insurance you will pay a tax/fee/fine/royalty/penance/tribute of $95 in 2014, 2% of income or $395 in 2015, or 2.5% or $695 in 2016.

If you do have insurance, then you pay no tax/fee/fine/royalty/penance/tribute.
That addresses the amount. It doesn't address the how.

For example.

Will employers have to recalculate and add a line to their withholding? It can become a tricky thing. Part time during the year, more than one job, etc. The simplest way for employers may be to withhold from everyone, and require them to get it back at the end of the year. Then it complicates the tax system more for us.

[clambake]

That addresses the amount. It doesn't address the how.

For example.

Will employers have to recalculate and add a line to their withholding? It can become a tricky thing. Part time during the year, more than one job, etc. The simplest way for employers may be to withhold from everyone, and require them to get it back at the end of the year. Then it complicates the tax system more for us.

jesus, man

[Drachen]

That addresses the amount. It doesn't address the how.

For example.

Will employers have to recalculate and add a line to their withholding? It can become a tricky thing. Part time during the year, more than one job, etc. The simplest way for employers may be to withhold from everyone, and require them to get it back at the end of the year. Then it complicates the tax system more for us.

Wow really??? THIS is what you are going to bitch about? There is a whole forest behind that twig of a tree.

[ElNono]

:lmao

[boutons_deux]

easiest would be withhold public health insurance option from everybody's income (earned and unearned, no cap) to pay for a non-profit public health insurance.

That would still allow anybody to go buy for-profit insurance for "better" treatment and to cover non-covered medical expenses, just like now where Medicare people can buy additional for-profit insurance.

[Wild Cobra]

You watch DVD box sets at work.
That's because I am only needed when operational equipment has a failure. Trust me, I have a fair share of work that gets done.

LOL...

I heard an operator complain to the plant manager the other day, that our section does so little work. He told her that he likes it when we are sitting down. That means all his equipment is running.

[MannyIsGod]

Lol

[Wild Cobra]

Wow really??? THIS is what you are going to bitch about? There is a whole forest behind that twig of a tree.
It is a valid curiosity.

[TheMACHINE]

one of my buddies on FB wrote this as a response to someone who likes obamacare cuz itll make insurance more afordable and make americans healthier:

"Well, im pretty sure our insurance premiums are going to skyrocket to cover for those who will be paying the "tax" and and will be going to see the doctor more often. So yes, i guess you can say better health for Americans (although programs like this usually lead to loss of jobs and innovation ) but definately not going to be more affordable."

is she right?

[Wild Cobra]

Well, I'm actually a part-owner, so it's in my best interest work gets done. And it is getting done.


Well, I'm actually a part-owner, so it's in my best interest work gets done. And it is getting done.
LOL...

Same person? Accidental dual posting?

[ChumpDumper]

Makes sense that WC makes a livelihood off of failure.

[scott]

one of my buddies on FB wrote this as a response to someone who likes obamacare cuz itll make insurance more afordable and make americans healthier:

"Well, im pretty sure our insurance premiums are going to skyrocket to cover for those who will be paying the "tax" and and will be going to see the doctor more often. So yes, i guess you can say better health for Americans (although programs like this usually lead to loss of jobs and innovation ) but definately not going to be more affordable."

is she right?

Premiums might go up, they might even skyrocket, but it won't be for those reasons.

[TheMACHINE]

LOL...

Same person? Accidental dual posting?

whatcha talking about?

[ElNono]

LOL...

Same person? Accidental dual posting?

Don't know TheMachine, tbh

[clambake]

Makes sense that WC makes a livelihood off of failure.

i thought it was hilarious how he said it's always the same parts breaking.

[Drachen]

one of my buddies on FB wrote this as a response to someone who likes obamacare cuz itll make insurance more afordable and make americans healthier:

"Well, im pretty sure our insurance premiums are going to skyrocket to cover for those who will be paying the "tax" and and will be going to see the doctor more often. So yes, i guess you can say better health for Americans (although programs like this usually lead to loss of jobs and innovation ) but definately not going to be more affordable."

is she right?

The biggest difference between the uninsured now and the uninsured after this starts is the tax.

Before: uninsured goes to ER because they are sick, they get treated/billed/don't pay (costs get passed on to the insured or tax payer)

After: uninsured goes to ER because they are sick, they get treated/billed/don't pay (costs get passed on to the insured or tax payer - $400 (or whatever amount) that the uninsured paid.)

[TheMACHINE]

Premiums might go up, they might even skyrocket, but it won't be for those reasons.

for what reasons? how bout the job loss part and innovation?

[TheMACHINE]

The biggest difference between the uninsured now and the uninsured after this starts is the tax.

Before: uninsured goes to ER because they are sick, they get treated/billed/don't pay (costs get passed on to the insured or tax payer)

After: uninsured goes to ER because they are sick, they get treated/billed/don't pay (costs get passed on to the insured or tax payer - $400 (or whatever amount) that the uninsured paid.)

but this will affect the insured cuz of higher premiums right? will this affect which doctors we can see or what inurance company we can use?

[scott]

for what reasons? how bout the job loss part and innovation?

"Well, im pretty sure our insurance premiums are going to skyrocket to cover for those who will be paying the "tax" and and will be going to see the doctor more often"

Those reasons.

And the second part is debatable.

[Drachen]

but this will affect the insured cuz of higher premiums right? will this affect which doctors we can see or what inurance company we can use?

We already pay higher premiums to cover the ~46 million uninsured. This will lessen the amount of uninsured and for those who stay uninsured, they have to pay SOME money into the system.

[scott]

but this will affect the insured cuz of higher premiums right? will this affect which doctors we can see or what inurance company we can use?

maybe. no.

[Drachen]

"Well, im pretty sure our insurance premiums are going to skyrocket to cover for those who will be paying the "tax" and and will be going to see the doctor more often"

Those reasons.

And the second part is debatable.

Why would those paying the tax go to see the doctor more often? They still won't have insurance, so they will need to pay full price for the Dr. visit, just like today.

[scott]

Why would those paying the tax go to see the doctor more often? They still won't have insurance, so they will need to pay full price for the Dr. visit, just like today.

^^Yep.

I was saying if Premiums go up, it won't be because people paying the tax are going to the doctor more.

[Wild Cobra]

We already pay higher premiums to cover the ~46 million uninsured. This will lessen the amount of uninsured and for those who stay uninsured, they have to pay SOME money into the system.
Still, being covered will likely mean they will see the doctors for more reasons and more often.

I believe one reason insurance is so expensive, is that the copays are not large enough in some plans. Some plans have a $0 copay, which leads to seeing a doctor for any silly thing.

[Drachen]

Still, being covered will likely mean they will see the doctors for more reasons and more often.

I believe one reason insurance is so expensive, is that the copays are not large enough in some plans. Some plans have a $0 copay, which leads to seeing a doctor for any silly thing.

which is better? a ~100 doctor visit, or a ~2000 ER visit every year?

[clambake]

I believe one reason insurance is so expensive, is that the copays are not large enough in some plans. Some plans have a $0 copay, which leads to seeing a doctor for any silly thing.

holy shit. you don't know jack shit about health coverage.

[coyotes_geek]

Why would those paying the tax go to see the doctor more often? They still won't have insurance, so they will need to pay full price for the Dr. visit, just like today.

There's a large group of people who will have insurance provided for them, right? Won't those people be more inclined to go to the doctor more than they were going to the ER since they're now insured on someone else's dime?

[TheMACHINE]

well..not to stereotype...but alot of the poor people dont neccesarily take care of themselves...they dont have gym memberships...probably eat fast food more than normal....so i think they will probably see the doctors more often.

[Drachen]

well..not to stereotype...but alot of the poor people dont neccesarily take care of themselves...they dont have gym memberships...probably eat fast food more than normal....so i think they will probably see the doctors more often.

Poor people have health insurance. It is called Medicaid. When I sold health insurance 7 years ago the fastest growing portion of uninsured were those individuals making between 65 and 85K

[Clipper Nation]

:lol People actually expecting crooks to repeal crook laws

At least the government can no longer use the Commerce Clause to justify ridiculous taxation, tbh...

[clambake]

There's a large group of people who will have insurance provided for them, right? Won't those people be more inclined to go to the doctor more than they were going to the ER since they're now insured on someone else's dime?

they'd have to pay for the office visit.

[CosmicCowboy]

We aren't just talking about emergency room access. Add 30 million federally subsidized people to the "insured" pool and SOMEBODY is damn well going to pay for it and it's sure not going to be the newly insured.

[coyotes_geek]

they'd have to pay for the office visit.

Office visits wouldn't be covered by the insurance they're given??? Doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose of giving them insurance in the first place?

[BlairForceDejuan]

hahah this fucking joke of a country

[TheMACHINE]

theyll probably still pay a co-pay

[clambake]

Office visits wouldn't be covered by the insurance they're given??? Doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose of giving them insurance in the first place?

does your insurance cover office visits? do you have a copay? do you think doctors in private practice will choose not to charge their office visit?

[DarrinS]

"Both of us want to provide health care to all Americans. There’s a slight difference, and her plan is a good one. But, she mandates that everybody buy health care. She’d have the government force every individual to buy insurance and I don’t have such a mandate because I don’t think the problem is that people don’t want health insurance, it’s that they can’t afford it. So, I focus more on lowering costs. This is a modest difference. But, it’s one that she’s tried to elevate, arguing that because I don’t force people to buy health care that I’m not insuring everybody. Well, if things were that easy, I could mandate everybody to buy a house, and that would solve the problem of homelessness. It doesn’t.

[TheMACHINE]

It's not a tax!

bg-ofjXrXio

[coyotes_geek]

We aren't just talking about emergency room access. Add 30 million federally subsidized people to the "insured" pool and SOMEBODY is damn well going to pay for it and it's sure not going to be the newly insured.

And this is why the ACA won't do anything to reduce premiums that the currently insured are already paying. Before we just had the hospitals overcharging insurance companies to cover the cost of the uninsured, now the insurance companies have to pay taxes to cover the costs of the insurance we're going to give away, as well as the added cost to fund an inefficient federal bureaucracy to administer it all.

[ElNono]

Presidents don't write legislation...

[scott]

And this is why the ACA won't do anything to reduce premiums that the currently insured are already paying. Before we just had the hospitals overcharging insurance companies to cover the cost of the uninsured, now the insurance companies have to pay taxes to cover the costs of the insurance we're going to give away, as well as the added cost to fund an inefficient federal bureaucracy to administer it all.

I disagree with that. There are certain thing, like exchanges across state lines, that will put downward pressure on premiums. There are provisions that are downward pressure points and some that are upward pressure points.

[ElNono]

that said, I don't like this healthcare law, because I think we've basically forced the middle-men (insurance co's), which I don't think it's necessary... but this is probably what's going to take to eventually get to any meaningful reform...

[coyotes_geek]

does your insurance cover office visits? do you have a copay? do you think doctors in private practice will choose not to charge their office visit?

The copay is just a fraction of the cost of the office visit. Paying a copay doesn't equal paying for the office visit.

[CosmicCowboy]

An interesting take from the comments on scotusblog:


Taxation and regulation under the health care Act
Chief Justice Roberts’ decision that sustains the individual mandate under the taxing power of the United States is filled with twists and turns that requires some words of protest. In the section of his opinion that deals with the Commerce Power, the Chief Justice accepts the view that Congress cannot regulate individuals unless and until they engage in some form of economic activity. He therefore accepts in full the arguments against the expanded reading of the Commerce Clause that were made by conservative commentators. He did so, as is his habit, without stopping a moment to analyze the enormous expansion in federal power that was ratified in Wickard v. Filburn, which authorized Congress to regulate under the Commerce Clause of the amount of wheat that a farmer could produce for home consumption. Big government, we shall have, but not that big, after all.

But when it comes to the taxing power all bets are off. Here the key statement that he makes is this: “it makes going without insurance just another thing the Government taxes, like buying gasoline or earning income.” With all respect, the point is little short of absurd. The earlier portion of the Chief Justice’s opinion noted the huge expansion in federal power that could arise if the government were permitted to regulate various forms of inactivity. What possible argument then could be put forward to say that the same risks do not apply to the expansion of the taxing authority to those same forms of inactivity, in ways that it has never been exercised before. The two examples that the Chief Justice gives are the tax on buying gasoline or earning income. Both of those are obvious activities that have long been regarded as acceptable bases for taxation. But not buying health insurance is not an activity. I am not aware of any tax imposed on individuals for not buying gasoline and not earning income, or not taking a bath or not working in a home office. To allow this to stand as a tax is to accept the same kind of absurdity that was rejected in connection with the taxing power. Intellectually shabby, to say the least.

[Drachen]

Ok, I am going to the coast now. Yall have fun with this.

[clambake]

The copay is just a fraction of the cost of the office visit. Paying a copay doesn't equal paying for the office visit.

my point is that if they visit a doctor (more often that some contend) they will be out of pocket where they weren't before.

[CosmicCowboy]

Ok, I am going to the coast now. Yall have fun with this.

Have fun, dude...

[johnsmith]

I bet the middle class gets fucked from this tbh.

I know next to nothing about obamacare, but I know that anything the United States government does that changes stuff, fucks the middle class.

GO USA!

[clambake]

Ok, I am going to the coast now. Yall have fun with this.

check for BP logos on your catch! just kidding

[ElNono]

the middle class certainly will feel this the most, IMO... they make enough not to qualify for much of the subsidies, but not enough to purchase anything but very high deductible insurance... which if you don't max out over a year, you're basically paying out of pocket...

[cheguevara]

:lmao welfare state

:lmao corporate welfare state

[coyotes_geek]

I disagree with that. There are certain thing, like exchanges across state lines, that will put downward pressure on premiums. There are provisions that are downward pressure points and some that are upward pressure points.

I think the exchanges would have helped had the bill not added a bunch of requirements that make most of the insurance plans look the same. Seems to me like we went from more products in fewer stores to fewer products in more stores.

[coyotes_geek]

my point is that if they visit a doctor (more often that some contend) they will be out of pocket where they weren't before.

Understand. My counterpoint is that people will be more inclined to make additional trips to the doctor if it's only going to cost them a $20 copay everytime they go as opposed to $200 for the full cost of the visit.

[ChumpDumper]

I am not aware of any tax imposed on individuals for not buying gasoline and not earning income, or not taking a bath or not working in a home office.There is a tax on not living anymore.

[boutons_deux]

I bet the middle class gets fucked from this tbh.

I know next to nothing about obamacare, but I know that anything the United States government does that changes stuff, fucks the middle class.

GO USA!

not as much as the UCA, health and financial sectors fuck the middle class.

As long as it can be called "free market" and "capitalism", You People don't object to getting fucked.

[Jacob1983]

Isn't a large portion of the debt a result of America's lovefest with entitlement programs?

[clambake]

Understand. My counterpoint is that people will be more inclined to make additional trips to the doctor if it's only going to cost them a $20 copay everytime they go as opposed to $200 for the full cost of the visit.

if they pay for insurance they will have $0 to whatever copay their coverage allows.

if they don't get insurance and pay the fine, they will be responsible for paying their office visit.

i haven't seen anything that suggest paying the fine gets you office visit coverage. did i miss something?

[TeyshaBlue]

if they pay for insurance they will have $0 to whatever copay their coverage allows.

if they don't get insurance and pay the fine, they will be responsible for paying their office visit.

i haven't seen anything that suggest paying the fine gets you office visit coverage. did i miss something?

Nope. That's pretty much it. Tax <> Insurance policy.

[clambake]

Nope. That's pretty much it. Tax <> Insurance policy.

now, could you imagine doctors that would wave their office fees for these people?

that would certainly take the pressure off abortion clinics.

[boutons_deux]

the penalty is way too low. It should be equal to what the market price for a healthy person.

[clambake]

the penalty is way too low.

true

[coyotes_geek]

if they pay for insurance they will have $0 to whatever copay their coverage allows.

if they don't get insurance and pay the fine, they will be responsible for paying their office visit.

i haven't seen anything that suggest paying the fine gets you office visit coverage. did i miss something?

I see where we got crossed up. You're talking about people with no insurance who are paying the fine and I'm talking about people who are going to be given insurance that they don't have to pay for.

[clambake]

I'm talking about people who are going to be given insurance that they don't have to pay for.

wait, what?

[coyotes_geek]

wait, what?

Certain low income folks are going to get refundable tax credits to buy their insurance with.

[ElNono]

Isn't a large portion of the debt a result of America's lovefest with entitlement programs?

More like politicians lovefest with power...

[PublicOption]

This Thomas/money thing is funny. I wonder if any of the resident liberals here looked up the facts over that. I'm just waiting for them to make fools of themselves more than ShazBot already has.


can't have a federal income tax, if you think obamacare is unconstitutional....think about it.


:lol

[clambake]

Certain low income folks are going to get refundable tax credits to buy their insurance with.

keep going. where's the qualifications on that? what are the parameters?

[PublicOption]

next stop......................break up the insurance monopolies.

6 insurance companies for 300 million people=monopoly

think about it.

[CosmicCowboy]

keep going. where's the qualifications on that? what are the parameters?

I'm not sure why you are busting his balls on this. It's common knowledge and has always been a talking point in support of the plan.

[coyotes_geek]

keep going. where's the qualifications on that? what are the parameters?

Link below should answer all your questions about this.

http://healthreformgps.org/resources/tax-subsidies-for-individuals-and-families-who-purchase-coverage-through-state-health-insurance-exchanges/

[clambake]

I'm not sure why you are busting his balls on this. It's common knowledge and has always been a talking point in support of the plan.

i'm not in any way trying to bust his balls. i want to know what the parameters are for those getting tax refunded/subsidized health insurance.

have you seen it?

[clambake]

Link below should answer all your questions about this.

http://healthreformgps.org/resources/tax-subsidies-for-individuals-and-families-who-purchase-coverage-through-state-health-insurance-exchanges/

thanks:toast

i'll be reading now.

[clambake]

gotta spend more time on that. the ambiguity on that is stifling!

[coyotes_geek]

gotta spend more time on that. the ambiguity on that is stifling!

:)

Precisely why I linked it instead of trying to explain it.

[clambake]

:)

Precisely why I linked it instead of trying to explain it.

we could have both died if you tried to do that. :lol

[TeyshaBlue]

Precisely why I linked it instead of trying to explain it.

The depth thing again?:lol

[clambake]

Precisely why I linked it instead of trying to explain it.

The depth thing again?:lol

i need a longer snorkel.

[coyotes_geek]

we could have both died if you tried to do that. :lol

:lol

Definitely. I read just enough to determine that it was talking about what I thought it was talking about, and even that made my head hurt.



Precisely why I linked it instead of trying to explain it.

The depth thing again?:lol

:lol I'm definitely trying to stay a little closer to shore with this one.

[boutons_deux]

Romney Blasts Supreme Court, Calling Healthcare Act ‘Worst Idea I Ever Had’

Just minutes after the Supreme Court upheld President Obama’s Affordable Care Act, Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney slammed the Court, calling the law “the worst idea I ever had.”

“I vow to repeal this law on my first day in office,” he told a crowd at a campaign rally. “Until then, I will work tirelessly to make people forget that I used to totally love it.”

At the White House, President Obama greeted the news of the Court’s decision in muted fashion: “I haven’t been this pumped since I smoked bin Laden.”

Dissenters in the 5-4 decision included Justice Antonin Scalia, who wrote, “The only medical procedures the government should pay for are forced transvaginal ultrasounds and exorcisms.”

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell also had harsh words for the healthcare law, telling reporters, “Under Obamacare, you will be forced to marry a gay doctor.”

http://www.borowitzreport.com/

[Th'Pusher]

So if the republicans win the senate and the WH and keep the house, can they repeal the ACA or can the dems filibuster to prevent it from being repealed (assuming repups don't have 60 in the senate which is obviously not happening)?

[CosmicCowboy]

The more I look into this the crazier it gets. This thing is going to cost BILLIONS more than they projected because of people like me.

The biggie is going to be the insurance subsidies. Insurance is going to be subsidized for everyone making up to 4X the poverty level or $88,000. There is no way they can pay for them without raising income taxes substantially on those that are paying taxes.

From a selfish standpoint I guess I should be for it if if wasn't going to finish bankrupting the country.

I know that I am a small employer that currently pays 100% of insurance for employee and family, but with a high deductible. When this goes through I can drop their insurance, give them all $2 an hour raises and they will get lower deductible federally subsidized insurance than I can currently buy for the same out of pocket cost.

I'm a small enough company that the penalty won't apply to me and since I run my corporation to show zero profit the tax credit won't help. I can quit paying for insurance, let uncle sam pick up the tab for my employees and put $75,000 in my pocket after buying a personal policy for myself.

[clambake]

The more I look into this the crazier it gets. This thing is going to cost BILLIONS more than they projected because of people like me.

The biggie is going to be the insurance subsidies. Insurance is going to be subsidized for everyone making up to 4X the poverty level or $88,000. There is no way they can pay for them without raising income taxes substantially on those that are paying taxes.

From a selfish standpoint I guess I should be for it if if wasn't going to finish bankrupting the country.

I know that I am a small employer that currently pays 100% of insurance for employee and family, but with a high deductible. When this goes through I can drop their insurance, give them all $2 an hour raises and they will get lower deductible federally subsidized insurance than I can currently buy for the same out of pocket cost.

I'm a small enough company that the penalty won't apply to me and since I run my corporation to show zero profit the tax credit won't help. I can quit paying for insurance, let uncle sam pick up the tab for my employees and put $75,000 in my pocket after buying a personal policy for myself.
gotta see how it plays out in 2014, but i hear ya.

[coyotes_geek]

So if the republicans win the senate and the WH and keep the house, can they repeal the ACA or can the dems filibuster to prevent it from being repealed (assuming repups don't have 60 in the senate which is obviously not happening)?

Twenty democratic senators are up for relection in 2014, so if the republicans were somehow able to pull off a Romney win I don't think they'd need to make it all the way to 60 to get past a filibuster. They'd probably be able to pick off some dems scared for their jobs. But the republicans would still need to get at least into the mid 50s this november and it's incredibly unlikely that's going to happen. Not to mention the obvious problem of Romney winning in the first place.

[Th'Pusher]

Twenty democratic senators are up for relection in 2014, so if the republicans were somehow able to pull off a Romney win I don't think they'd need to make it all the way to 60 to get past a filibuster. They'd probably be able to pick off some dems scared for their jobs. But the republicans would still need to get at least into the mid 50s this november and it's incredibly unlikely that's going to happen. Not to mention the obvious problem of Romney winning in the first place.

Thanks

[ElNono]

I predict the country won't go bankrupt over this...

Bold prediction, tbh

[coyotes_geek]

The biggie is going to be the insurance subsidies. Insurance is going to be subsidized for everyone making up to 4X the poverty level or $88,000. There is no way they can pay for them without raising income taxes substantially on those that are paying taxes.

I'd be curious to know what percentage of the country lives in a household that's under that 4x line. I'll bet you it's easily half, if not two thirds.

I don't think it will take too long after implementation for everyone to realize that the subsidies are going to need to get scaled back quite a bit. For this to survive in any form you'd have to scale back the subsidies and jack up the fines.

[BlairForceDejuan]

I predict the country won't go bankrupt over this...

Bold prediction, tbh

Already is.

[ElNono]

Already is.

When did the US default on it's debt? Oh, wait, it hasn't.

[ElNono]

I don't think it will take too long after implementation for everyone to realize that the subsidies are going to need to get scaled back quite a bit. For this to survive in any form you'd have to scale back the subsidies and jack up the fines.

Or actually attack the cost of care...

[TheMACHINE]

Does this guy make a good point?

" Well, as far as paying goes, as a nation we spend twice as much per person for healthcare and receive much worse care. Will this bill help alleviate that? I have no damn idea, single payer would do that, but this is a big question mark. I t...hink it might possibly help though, consider the following situation:

I don't have insurance, and when my appendix almost burst I had to go to the ER (three times, due to complications post surgery). I couldn't afford it, and got signed up to the state's MSI program (basically it's medicaid for low income people). They paid my bills, which wound up being about $50,000. That much money could have paid for a LOT of check-ups and regular visits. I have to think that if I had had regular healthcare and my operation had been done without any ER visits, it would ultimately have cost the tax payers way, way less.

So, cross your fingers that this thing is an effective piece of legislation that hasn't been mutilated too badly by political cat-fighting. The last thing small business owners like you and me need is to have yet another high cost. I wish places of employment had nothing to do with healthcare, and that we had a single payer system though. If that makes me a socialist, so be it. I can't wrap my head around how it will ever be moral or ethical to make money off of people's pain and suffering. And anyway, we have tons of "socialist" programs already: the police, firemen, the VA, etc.

Whatever happened to the American idea of taking all the best ideas from other countries and using them in a hybrid system to our benefit? Fusion, baby. Embrace it! :D"

[CosmicCowboy]

I'd be curious to know what percentage of the country lives in a household that's under that 4x line. I'll bet you it's easily half, if not two thirds.

I don't think it will take too long after implementation for everyone to realize that the subsidies are going to need to get scaled back quite a bit. For this to survive in any form you'd have to scale back the subsidies and jack up the fines.

The fine is actually close to the cost of buying insurance up to probably 2X the poverty level, because of all the subsidies. A family making $50,000 gross could actually end up paying $600 a year for health insurance. Obviously the other $10,000+ of cost is picked up by SOMEBODY...multiply this by millions and you start talking some serious jack.

[ElNono]

Here's the subsidy calculator if you want to run some numbers:

http://healthreform.kff.org/SubsidyCalculator.aspx

[ElNono]

A family making $50,000 gross could actually end up paying $600 a year for health insurance.

More like $3,300/year for a family of 4... or $800+ per person...

[Capt Bringdown]

It’s a too-good-to-be true deal for the insurance companies.
A major “victory” for a President and his party who are deep into the pockets of said insurance companies.
Republicans get their stupid ideas turned into law and they get to pretend that they are pissed about it.
A win-win all around.

Except if you work for a living.

[Capt Bringdown]

How is Obamacare going to reduce costs?
If it doesn’t reduce costs, Obamacare becomes a political sledgehammer that the Repugs and Demoncrats can use to bludgeon Social Security & Medicare.
Obamacare delivers more profits to our corporate masters, provides more ammunition for the Austerity wrecking crew, and serves a tidy propaganda purpose of killing the notion of health care for all.

[Clipper Nation]

When did the US default on it's debt? Oh, wait, it hasn't.

So? Our dollar has lost 97% of its purchasing power since 1913 due to the Fed's money printing... that's the real reason we're broke, tbh...

[ElNono]

So? Our dollar has lost 97% of its purchasing power since 1913 due to the Fed's money printing... that's the real reason we're broke, tbh...

So? Our country's production has grown way beyond 97% since 1913... we're not broke, nor under any major inflation... every currency has been devalued over a 100 year period.