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Nbadan
06-28-2012, 02:22 AM
Long but pretty informative article from CNNMoney

A Fortune investigation reveals that the ATF never intentionally allowed guns to fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels. How the world came to believe just the opposite is a tale of rivalry, murder, and political bloodlust.

some highlights..


Customers can legally buy as many weapons as they want in Arizona as long as they're 18 or older and pass a criminal background check. There are no waiting periods and no need for permits, and buyers are allowed to resell the guns. "In Arizona," says Voth, "someone buying three guns is like someone buying a sandwich."

By 2009 the Sinaloa drug cartel had made Phoenix its gun supermarket and recruited young Americans as its designated shoppers or straw purchasers. Voth and his agents began investigating a group of buyers, some not even old enough to buy beer, whose members were plunking down as much as $20,000 in cash to purchase up to 20 semiautomatics at a time, and then delivering the weapons to others.

.....


It was nearly impossible in Arizona to bring a case against a straw purchaser. The federal prosecutors there did not consider the purchase of a huge volume of guns, or their handoff to a third party, sufficient evidence to seize them. A buyer who certified that the guns were for himself, then handed them off minutes later, hadn't necessarily lied and was free to change his mind. Even if a suspect bought 10 guns that were recovered days later at a Mexican crime scene, this didn't mean the initial purchase had been illegal. To these prosecutors, the pattern proved little. Instead, agents needed to link specific evidence of intent to commit a crime to each gun they wanted to seize.


ATF agent John Dodson

None of the ATF agents doubted that the Fast and Furious guns were being purchased to commit crimes in Mexico. But that was nearly impossible to prove to prosecutors' satisfaction. And agents could not seize guns or arrest suspects after being directed not to do so by a prosecutor. (Agents can be sued if they seize a weapon against prosecutors' advice. In this case, the agents had a particularly strong obligation to follow the prosecutors' direction given that Fast and Furious had received a special designation under the Justice Department's Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force. That designation meant more resources for the case, but it also provided that prosecutors take the lead role.)

In their Jan. 5 meeting, Hurley suggested another way to make a case: Voth's team could wiretap the phone of a suspected recruiter and capture proof of him directing straw purchasers to buy guns. This would establish sufficient proof to arrest both the leaders and the followers.

On Jan. 8, 2010, Voth and his supervisors drafted a briefing paper in which they explained Hurley's view that "there was minimal evidence at this time to support any type of prosecution." The paper elaborated, "Currently our strategy is to allow the transfer of firearms to continue to take place, albeit at a much slower pace, in order to further the investigation and allow for the identification of additional co-conspirators."

Rep. Issa's committee has flagged this document as proof that the agents chose to walk guns. But prosecutors had determined, Voth says, that the "transfer of firearms" was legal. Agents had no choice but to keep investigating and start a wiretap as quickly as possible to gather evidence of criminal intent.

Ten days after the meeting with Hurley, a Saturday, Jaime Avila, a transient, admitted methamphetamine user, bought three WASR-10 rifles at the Lone Wolf Trading Company in Glendale, Ariz. The next day, a helpful Lone Wolf employee faxed Avila's purchase form to ATF to flag the suspicious activity. It was the Martin Luther King Jr. holiday weekend, so the agents didn't receive the fax until Tuesday, according to a contemporaneous case report. By that time, the legally purchased guns had been gone for three days. The agents had never seen the weapons and had no chance to seize them. But they entered the serial numbers into their gun database. Two of these were later recovered at Brian Terry's murder scene.

Read more: http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/

Since the scandal erupted, almost everyone associated with Fast and Furious has been reassigned. Dodson, Casa, and Alt have been transferred to other field offices. Voth, who has now been interviewed by congressional investigators and the Justice Department's inspector general, has been reassigned to a desk job in Washington.

New facts are still coming to light—and will likely continue to do so with the Justice Department inspector general's report expected in coming months. Among the discoveries: Fast and Furious' top suspects—Sinaloa Cartel operatives and Mexican nationals who were providing the money, ordering the guns, and directing the recruitment of the straw purchasers—turned out to be FBI informants who were receiving money from the bureau. That came as news to the ATF agents in Group VII.

Nbadan
06-28-2012, 03:01 AM
Fast And Furious: Issa No Longer Suspicious Holder Knew Of Gunwalking


<snip>

“During the inception and the participation through the death of Brian Terry, we have no evidence nor do we currently have strong suspicion” that Holder knew of the tactics, Issa said during testimony before the House Rules Committee on Wednesday.

<snip>

Issa also said he had no specific knowledge that the White House knew of the gunwalking tactics and said the committee wasn’t looking to the president.

Rep. Elijah Cummings (D-MD), ranking member of the Oversight Committee, butted in as Issa was being questioned by Rep. Jared Polis (D-CO).

“We are now about to find in contempt the attorney general of the United States of America after you just heard that,” Cummings said.

“Sure,” replied Issa. “It’s not for what the attorney general knew about Fast and Furious, it’s about the attorney general’s refusal to provide the documents.”

Read more: http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/06/fast_and_furious_issa_holder_contempt_gunwalking.p hp?ref=fpnewsfeed

Every democrat needs to walk from the house tomorrow during this vote..

Nbadan
07-11-2012, 12:15 AM
Fast and Furious follow-up: the gun store allegations.
Predictably, the teabaggers have not been very happy about the recent Fortune investigation which shattered their conspiracy theory dreams. Some of them, in an attempt to revive "Birtherism 2.0", have pointed to allegations that the ATF instructed gun dealers to proceed with questionable gun sales.

Reporter Katherine Eban has followed up her investigation with an enlightening discussion of these allegations. Apparently, it boils down to just two situations. In the first, the ATF did encourage a straw purchase to go on, but only because they intended to arrest the buyer immediately afterwards. But the buyer didn't make the purchase, so there was no arrest. In the second, the accuser was a gun store owner who changed his story between Feb and Sept 2011, and whose allegations are contradicted by written ATF records and DoJ correspondence.


FORTUNE -- Since Fortune published "The Truth about the Fast and Furious Scandal" on June 27, thousands of comments have been posted on Fortune.com either praising or vilifying the article. Among the questions often raised by critics of the article (including Sen. Charles Grassley) concern assertions that the ATF encouraged gun dealers to sell weapons to known traffickers. If the ATF was encouraging such sales, the argument goes, it would be proof that the agency had a policy to allow weapons to fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels, the core contention in what is known as the Fast and Furious scandal.

In the six months of investigations that led Fortune to conclude that the ATF had no policy to intentionally permit weapons to be trafficked, we examined 2,000 pages of ATF records, Congressional reports and testimony, and interviewed 39 people involved in or knowledgeable about the case. That body of evidence shows the ATF did not have a policy of encouraging gun dealers to sell to traffickers. Until now, the alleged encouragement of gun-dealers has not been a central focus of the Fast and Furious scandal. As a result, we did not address those points in the article. However, given the interest in this question, we thought it was worth taking readers through the evidence on this point.

It should be noted at the outset that the Congressional committee investigating Fast and Furious has never claimed the ATF had any official, written policy to encourage gun dealers to sell to traffickers. No documents, emails, or testimony mentioned in Congressional reports show signs of an agency-wide policy, or even a policy within Phoenix Group VII, the unit that worked on Fast and Furious.

What the allegations in the Congressional hearings and reports boil down to are two specific situations. In one, as we'll see, the allegations are true -- but misleading and incomplete -- and in the second, the evidence is contradictory. It's possible that the Congressional investigators have other evidence, but these two episodes are the only ones that have surfaced to date.


http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2012/07/03/fast-and-furious-follow-up-the-atf-and-gun-stores/

CosmicCowboy
07-11-2012, 09:13 AM
The federal prosecutors there did not consider the purchase of a huge volume of guns, or their handoff to a third party, sufficient evidence to seize them.

Straw purchases are illegal.

The federal prosecutors (employees of Holders justice department that could be fired at a moments notice) were intentionally not prosecuting the straw purchasers.

This article is pure spin.

CosmicCowboy
07-11-2012, 09:15 AM
A straw purchase is an illegal firearm purchase where the actual buyer of the gun, being unable to pass the required federal background check or desiring to not have his or her name associated with the transaction, uses a proxy buyer who can pass the required background check to purchase the firearm for him/her. It is highly illegal and punishable by a $250,000 fine and 10 years in prison.

CosmicCowboy
07-11-2012, 09:19 AM
The ATF, FBI, and US Attorneys office (All employees of Holders justice department) all were responsible for walking guns across the border.

This is absolutely indisputable.

boutons_deux
07-11-2012, 09:48 AM
In the six months of investigations that led Fortune to conclude that the ATF had no policy to intentionally permit weapons to be trafficked, we examined 2,000 pages of ATF records, Congressional reports and testimony, and interviewed 39 people involved in or knowledgeable about the case. That body of evidence shows the ATF did not have a policy of encouraging gun dealers to sell to traffickers. Until now, the alleged encouragement of gun-dealers has not been a central focus of the Fast and Furious scandal. As a result, we did not address those points in the article. However, given the interest in this question, we thought it was worth taking readers through the evidence on this point.

It should be noted at the outset that the Congressional committee investigating Fast and Furious has never claimed the ATF had any official, written policy to encourage gun dealers to sell to traffickers. No documents, emails, or testimony mentioned in Congressional reports show signs of an agency-wide policy, or even a policy within Phoenix Group VII, the unit that worked on Fast and Furious.

What the allegations in the Congressional hearings and reports boil down to are two specific situations. In one, as we'll see, the allegations are true -- but misleading and incomplete -- and in the second, the evidence is contradictory. It's possible that the Congressional investigators have other evidence, but these two episodes are the only ones that have surfaced to date.

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/

CC shilling for the Repug witch hunt, which now has so fucked itself that it can't move forward, other than fishing furiously.

CosmicCowboy
07-11-2012, 10:32 AM
:lmao @ boutox...


No documents, emails, or testimony mentioned in Congressional reports show signs of an agency-wide policy, or even a policy within Phoenix Group VII, the unit that worked on Fast and Furious.


They don't have any written evidence because Holder wouldn't give it to them and Obama invoked executive privilege.

Actual agents on the ground testified it was policy in Phoenix Group VII so the article is a blatant lie and misrepresentation of the actual facts. I have posted the agents testimony to congress already if you wish to refresh your memory.

clambake
07-11-2012, 10:46 AM
:lmao @ boutox...




They don't have any written evidence because Holder wouldn't give it to them and Obama invoked executive privilege.

Actual agents on the ground testified it was policy in Phoenix Group VII so the article is a blatant lie and misrepresentation of the actual facts. I have posted the agents testimony to congress already if you wish to refresh your memory.

why don't the agents provide the written policy?

CosmicCowboy
07-11-2012, 11:30 AM
why don't the agents provide the written policy?

Why don't you ask an intelligent question?

The agents were the bottom of the food chain. Policy is determined by their bosses and their bosses bosses. They testified that they were ordered by their bosses to let the guns walk. That in itself is proof that it was policy AT LEAST in Phoenix Group VII.

clambake
07-11-2012, 12:03 PM
ok, how many agents are in the group?

clambake
07-11-2012, 12:09 PM
and why are you back to being so pissy all the time?

CosmicCowboy
07-11-2012, 12:25 PM
ok, how many agents are in the group?

I posted the testimony of four of them. Don't know how many more there were.

Nbadan
07-12-2012, 01:26 AM
This is as real as the birther crap...CC and his GOP cohorts will keep on keeping on about Holder, hell, even Issa has given up that chase...

“During the inception and the participation through the death of Brian Terry, we have no evidence nor do we currently have strong suspicion” that Holder knew of the tactics, Issa said during testimony before the House Rules Committee on Wednesday.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/06/fast_and_furious_issa_holder_contempt_gunwalking.p hp?ref=fpnewsfeed

Except for the wing-nut spin, this isn't about gunrunning or a coverup by Holder and the AG office...this is about the GOP House pushing its weight around...intimidating the WH, scoring political points and fishing for documents that prove absolutely nothing...