The Vacation that led to an argument.

[SpurinDallas]

My in laws are going to Cancun next month and want to take my 12 year old daughter with them. We've been to Cancun pretty much every summer but not going this year because my wife just had a baby. I feel bad about depriving my daughter a chance to go and had given her the green light because I know my in laws will watch her almost as good as we would. Problem is, my daughter told my wife and I last night that she wasn't sure because she hasn't been away from us for that long and is afraid she would get homesick and not have a good time. At that point I told our daughter to not go then because if she feels like that there isn't anything I could do about it and she made peace with it and went to her room. After relaying this back to my mother in law, she proceeds to call my daughter and I guess try to convince her with the help of my wife and then my daughter gets upset and starts crying because she feels she is going to hurt her grandmother's feelings by not going, but is also nervous at the same time to be away from us for so long, so far away. I told my wife that was wrong of her mom to do that to our daughter and it led to a big ass argument.

Would you feel comfortable letting your child go after all that? I'm lucky that I have great in laws and I love them very much, but I think this time, they overstepped their boundries.

[cantthinkofanything]

My in laws are going to Cancun next month and want to take my 12 year old daughter with them. We've been to Cancun pretty much every summer but not going this year because my wife just had a baby. I feel bad about depriving my daughter a chance to go and had given her the green light because I know my in laws will watch her almost as good as we would. Problem is, my daughter told my wife and I last night that she wasn't sure because she hasn't been away from us for that long and is afraid she would get homesick and not have a good time. At that point I told our daughter to not go then because if she feels like that there isn't anything I could do about it and she made peace with it and went to her room. After relaying this back to my mother in law, she proceeds to call my daughter and I guess try to convince her with the help of my wife and then my daughter gets upset and starts crying because she feels she is going to hurt her grandmother's feelings by not going, but is also nervous at the same time to be away from us for so long, so far away. I told my wife that was wrong of her mom to do that to our daughter and it led to a big ass argument.

Would you feel comfortable letting your child go after all that? I'm lucky that I have great in laws and I love them very much, but I think this time, they overstepped their boundries.

You need to respect your daughter's initial feelings on it. Your mother in law needs to let your daughter know that it's OK if she doesn't go. You're right that she overstepped the boundary. From your side, you need to assure your daughter that there will be plenty of other times to go and that it's no big deal to miss this one.

[SpurinDallas]

You need to respect your daughter's initial feelings on it. Your mother in law needs to let your daughter know that it's OK if she doesn't go.

Thank you! My thoughts exactly. :toast

When she first told me she would be nervous without us there, I had already made up my mind that she wouldn't go.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Yeah, I think she over stepped that boundary but I can't say if that was her true intention. She wants her granddaughter to go but she doesn't want to. Sounds like both of them won't enjoy the vacation either way.

[SpurinDallas]

Yeah, I think she over stepped that boundary but I can't say if that was her true intention. She wants her granddaughter to go but she doesn't want to. Sounds like both of them won't enjoy the vacation either way.

I forgot to mention that as well. My mother in law doesn't even want to go, its my father in law that wants to get away. My mother in law wants my daughter to go so she can have something to look forward to. I told my wife they should just cancel the trip altogether at this point.

[bus driver]

i think that is fucked up that your mother in law would do that. she should wants best for the kid and not force her to go anywhere.

imo

[cantthinkofanything]

Thank you! My thoughts exactly. :toast

When she first told me she would be nervous without us there, I had already made up my mind that she wouldn't go.

Exactly. She made her decision based on reasonable feelings for a 12 year old. If you wanted, you could have spent a few minutes reassuring her that everything would be fine and not to worry, then let her think about it. But I doubt that's what your mother in law did. In any event, she should have left it to be decided between the parents and daughter.

[clambake]

the only way to prevent this and any future problems is to kill the in-laws.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

I told my wife they should just cancel the trip altogether at this point.
Sounds like the best thing at this point. She screwed that up. Intentionally or not.

[Avante]

It's all about your daugther and what she wants nobody else matters.

[tlongII]

Weird story. When I was 12 I know I would have been GONE.

[tlongII]

But maybe girls are different...

[cantthinkofanything]

If you wanted, you could have spent a few minutes reassuring her that everything would be fine and not to worry, then let her think about it.

or maybe not...was just thinking that if for some reason they passed away and there weren't any more chances to go, it might weigh heavily on your daughter

If you end up following clambake's advice, it should happen while they are on the trip so it'll further enforce that she made the right decision.

[cantthinkofanything]

But maybe girls are different...

PQvnZOR_oIk

[mrsmaalox]

It depends on if your mother in law called your daughter to reassure her that it would be fun and that everything would be okay or if she called her to berate her for backing out on the vacation and acting like a baby. I just think it's funny that parents are so quick to call grandparents out for "overstepping boundaries" when they try to advise, but not when they are lavishing hundreds of dollars on their kid :lol

My kids have vacationed with grandparents many times and there have been at times varying degrees of this kind of drama. Basically, the kid wants YOU to decide for them what they should do. Kid can stay home and will complain of having "nothing to do" (fine) or kid can go kicking and screaming, but will be fine when she gets back, no permanent damage has ever been done to a 12 year old being away from parents (and with caring grandparents) for a week. 12 year old girls are just confused about EVERYTHING :lol

PS: And now, the big fallout of having this parent vs parent, parent vs grandparent crap going on, protecting your daughter's delicate little feelings is hopeless-----she's gonna feel like shit no matter what!

[SpurinDallas]

She texted me about 10 minutes ago that she isn't going because she doesn't feel up to it. So all of that is settled! BUt all of this could have been avoided last night if they just all listened to me the first time. :lol

[cantthinkofanything]

Basically, the kid wants YOU to decide for them what they should do. Kid can stay home and will complain of having "nothing to do" (fine) or kid can go kicking and screaming, but will be fine when she gets back, no permanent damage has ever been done to a 12 year old being away from parents (and with caring grandparents) for a week. 12 year old girls are just confused about EVERYTHING :lol


Sure, but you really need to let them (the kid) make this decision themselves. In this case, her initial reaction was that she was nervous. If the parents thought it was unfounded, they could have spent some time trying to reassure her in regards to her doubts but let her know it's ultimately her choice. So the girl is making a decision weighing the two sides of her concern.

But the grandmother calls and (presumably) introduces guilt into the mix. So now she's trying to weigh the pros and cons of two separate conflicting issues. One of which should never have been part of the decision.

So you're right, you end up with the girl wanting someone to make the decision for her after she had already made her own decision.

Do you really want your kids to learn to accept being guilted into something they didn't want to do?

[cantthinkofanything]

She texted me about 10 minutes ago that she isn't going because she doesn't feel up to it. So all of that is settled! BUt all of this could have been avoided last night if they just all listened to me the first time. :lol

:lol

I wonder if she's been reading Spurstalk.

[SpurinDallas]

:lol

I wonder if she's been reading Spurstalk.

God, I hope not! :lol

She'd probably stumble across one of your "I'm porking your mom" posts and ask me what that means. :rollin

[cantthinkofanything]

God, I hope not! :lol

She'd probably stumble across one of your "I'm porking your mom" posts and ask me what that means. :rollin

:lol

if that's the case, then I'm sorry.
But you might also review your internet access policies at home.

[cantthinkofanything]

wait...what color hair does she have?

[SpurinDallas]

wait...what color hair does she have?

And you were doing so well. :lol

[mrsmaalox]

Sure, but you really need to let them (the kid) make this decision themselves. In this case, her initial reaction was that she was nervous. If the parents thought it was unfounded, they could have spent some time trying to reassure her in regards to her doubts but let her know it's ultimately her choice. So the girl is making a decision weighing the two sides of her concern.

But the grandmother calls and (presumably) introduces guilt into the mix. So now she's trying to weigh the pros and cons of two separate conflicting issues. One of which should never have been part of the decision.

So you're right, you end up with the girl wanting someone to make the decision for her after she had already made her own decision.

Do you really want your kids to learn to accept being guilted into something they didn't want to do?

I get your point completely about the guilt thing-----BUT we are talking about a vacation not being "guilted" in prostitution. Parents really need to keep a perspective on what is at stake. Sometimes fostering (or forcing lol) an adventurous spirit, in a protective environment, is more beneficial to a kid than letting them hide under your wing. I just don't think an all expense paid trip to Cancun with 100% attention from Grammy and Gramps is gonna cause permanent or even long term harm. No different at all than when we leave them crying on the first day of kindergarden. *shrugs*

[Viva Las Espuelas]

She texted me about 10 minutes ago that she isn't going because she doesn't feel up to it. So all of that is settled! BUt all of this could have been avoided last night if they just all listened to me the first time. :lol

You have a comfy couch? :lmao

[SpurinDallas]

I get your point completely about the guilt thing-----BUT we are talking about a vacation not being "guilted" in prostitution. Parents really need to keep a perspective on what is at stake. Sometimes fostering (or forcing lol) an adventurous spirit, in a protective environment, is more beneficial to a kid than letting them hide under your wing. I just don't think an all expense paid trip to Cancun with 100% attention from Grammy and Gramps is gonna cause permanent or even long term harm. No different at all than when we leave them crying on the first day of kindergarden. *shrugs*

I can see it from your perspective as well. I think the thought of her not having fun because she misses us would make me feel helpless. I think I just baby my kids too much.

[SpurinDallas]

You have a comfy couch? :lmao

Hell yes I do! Bring it on. I'll finally get to sleep an entire night without having to wake up for our baby's feedings. :lol

[Slomo]

I won't say anything about whether your daughter should go or not - I don't know her, you do. So I'm going to trust your judgement and just say that from the sound of it you did good.

But your mother in law did overstep her authority.

[cantthinkofanything]

I get your point completely about the guilt thing-----BUT we are talking about a vacation not being "guilted" in prostitution. Parents really need to keep a perspective on what is at stake. Sometimes fostering (or forcing lol) an adventurous spirit, in a protective environment, is more beneficial to a kid than letting them hide under your wing. I just don't think an all expense paid trip to Cancun with 100% attention from Grammy and Gramps is gonna cause permanent or even long term harm. No different at all than when we leave them crying on the first day of kindergarden. *shrugs*

yeah...I can see that point about "forcing" them to step out. And in this case, she would be in a protective environment. I guess personally, it would depend on my daughter. If I thought she needed the push, then maybe I would spend some extra effort convincing her to go and assuring her that it would be OK.

I guess the downside would be that the grandparents fall asleep on the beach and the daughter gets kidnapped.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Hell yes I do! Bring it on. I'll finally get to sleep an entire night without having to wake up for our baby's feedings. :lol

That'll show her :lol

[mrsmaalox]

I guess the downside would be that the grandparents fall asleep on the beach and the daughter gets kidnapped.

Yep, that would suck.

[Drachen]

I can see it from your perspective as well. I think the thought of her not having fun because she misses us would make me feel helpless. I think I just baby my kids too much.

I think you seem like a good dad. It seems like you care a lot. I am sure you will get the opposite advice which is fine. I am not going to fight for one side very hard, but even when you give a dog a little leash, they sometimes stay under your legs and you have to give a little kick to their behind to get them to walk ahead of you and use that leash.

I am absolutely going to regret my attempts to make my son and daughter more independent. No doubt. I think every parent looks back and wishes that they hugged and held and kept their kids longer (at least that is the way I feel at this stage, mayber when they are 18 I will be ready to kick them out - LOL). But I would regret it more if I didn't.

I still kiss my daughter's owies, I still hug and hold her every day. I still check her closet for the closet zombie and read her a story and tuck her in every night that I am home at bed time. I still feel bad about having to go to work and school so I don't get to see her much on certain days. It still KILLS me when she says "but I don't want you to go to school today." (thank god that is almost over) - So I am not some heartless bastard working methodically toward making my kids a perfect adult. I just think that the lessons we teach them, and the traits we try to instill in them, even at an early age, are the foundations upon which they will be built later on in life.

At 12, I would have probably asked her why she was nervous, if she said she was nervous about being away from us, I probably would have discussed with her all of the traits that she had that would make her successful in this endeavour, how it would be fun, etc., slowly trying to build her confidence in her ability to do this, then remind her that even if she ran into an issue, her loving g-parents would be there to help her through. I would have told her that I would buy her a phone card, (then later told her that she should use it wisely because she would have to budget (x) amount of minutes across the vacation if she REALLY needed to talk to me.)......

Once again, this is just me, and I am basing this on an amalgram of myself, my sister (at 13 my sister spent an entire summer at the coast with my great grand parents), and what I think my daughter would be at 12. Your daughter could be entirely different. So if someone comes in after me and says something in response to this post like "fuck that guy, raise your kids how you want" then they are probably as right as I am and I won't necessarily argue since telling people how to raise their kids is a touchy subject, even when advice is asked.

All that being said, I will say that I think that the in-laws overstepped their bounds and that if they wanted to discuss it further, that they should have gone through you to do so.

tl;dr: You are a horrible father and may god have mercy on your soul. :lol

[ploto]

Maybe they could consider taking her on a shorter trip to some place closer in which she will feel comfortable. How about a quick trip to a Texas beach or something else after they get back from Cancun?

[SpurinDallas]

Maybe they could consider taking her on a shorter trip to some place closer in which she will feel comfortable. How about a quick trip to a Texas beach or something else after they get back from Cancun?

Thats a great idea. :toast

We were already planning a weekender, maybe Galveston, although the beaches there suck, in a couple of weeks.

[BacktoBasics]

I think you seem like a good dad. It seems like you care a lot. I am sure you will get the opposite advice which is fine. I am not going to fight for one side very hard, but even when you give a dog a little leash, they sometimes stay under your legs and you have to give a little kick to their behind to get them to walk ahead of you and use that leash.

I am absolutely going to regret my attempts to make my son and daughter more independent. No doubt. I think every parent looks back and wishes that they hugged and held and kept their kids longer (at least that is the way I feel at this stage, mayber when they are 18 I will be ready to kick them out - LOL). But I would regret it more if I didn't.

I still kiss my daughter's owies, I still hug and hold her every day. I still check her closet for the closet zombie and read her a story and tuck her in every night that I am home at bed time. I still feel bad about having to go to work and school so I don't get to see her much on certain days. It still KILLS me when she says "but I don't want you to go to school today." (thank god that is almost over) - So I am not some heartless bastard working methodically toward making my kids a perfect adult. I just think that the lessons we teach them, and the traits we try to instill in them, even at an early age, are the foundations upon which they will be built later on in life.

At 12, I would have probably asked her why she was nervous, if she said she was nervous about being away from us, I probably would have discussed with her all of the traits that she had that would make her successful in this endeavour, how it would be fun, etc., slowly trying to build her confidence in her ability to do this, then remind her that even if she ran into an issue, her loving g-parents would be there to help her through. I would have told her that I would buy her a phone card, (then later told her that she should use it wisely because she would have to budget (x) amount of minutes across the vacation if she REALLY needed to talk to me.)......

Once again, this is just me, and I am basing this on an amalgram of myself, my sister (at 13 my sister spent an entire summer at the coast with my great grand parents), and what I think my daughter would be at 12. Your daughter could be entirely different. So if someone comes in after me and says something in response to this post like "fuck that guy, raise your kids how you want" then they are probably as right as I am and I won't necessarily argue since telling people how to raise their kids is a touchy subject, even when advice is asked.

All that being said, I will say that I think that the in-laws overstepped their bounds and that if they wanted to discuss it further, that they should have gone through you to do so.

tl;dr: You are a horrible father and may god have mercy on your soul. :lolI think this is a really good post right here.

SpurinDallas. No doubt they overstepped their bounds. They should have at least approached you and your wife first before discussing things with your daughter.

But I do agree that 12 years old is a great time to push a little independence for her. Especially when it comes to decision making. More importantly she's a female and its a big deal IMO that young woman be capable of making decisions for themselves about what makes them happy. Not that I'm trying to jump to massive conclusion based on one little trip but a lot of women develop or don't develop strong independence and I think most of us can agree that a lot of abused woman lack the ability to make strong personal decision. Not to generalize because that's not my intent.

I definitely would have pushed the positive aspects of doing things on her own and outside the her normal level of comfort. Life is full of these instances.

But hey maybe next time a more productive approach with a full family team working together rather than behind each others backs.

[ploto]

But I do agree that 12 years old is a great time to push a little independence for her. Especially when it comes to decision making. More importantly she's a female and its a big deal IMO that young woman be capable of making decisions for themselves about what makes them happy. Not that I'm trying to jump to massive conclusion based on one little trip but a lot of women develop or don't develop strong independence and I think most of us can agree that a lot of abused woman lack the ability to make strong personal decision. Not to generalize because that's not my intent.

But her strong personal decision was NOT to go. Would not letting her make this choice and not forcing her to do something against her wishes be in line with her developing the independence to do as she wishes. Dad was happy to have her go and respected her choice not to do so.

[mrsmaalox]

Thats a great idea. :toast

We were already planning a weekender, maybe Galveston, although the beaches there suck, in a couple of weeks.

I may be wrong here, but I think Ploto was suggesting a trip with the grandparents, not you. Peel yourself away from the kid, S-i-D! :lol

[BacktoBasics]

But her strong personal decision was NOT to go. Would not letting her make this choice and not forcing her to do something against her wishes be in line with her developing the independence to do as she wishes. Dad was happy to have her go and respected her choice not to do so.I understand this. My point being that I would have at least promoted the idea of her going and doing something on her own outside of her typical security blanket of familiarity. But most certainly would have been fine with her decision to not go. I just would have suggested a little more introspection before coming to that decision.

I'm not judging the OP but it seemed like he just jumped the gun because of his own insecurities "oh you don't want to go...cool don't go"...just like that without much consideration. Maybe he was a little scared. Again I wasn't there and I don't mean to pick him apart. Just kinda going off what I read.

I got the impression that she was looking for validation for being scared and as a parent I don't typically validate those emotions for something like this. Not all the time of course but in this instance I would have attempted to liberate her a bit.

[SpurinDallas]

I may be wrong here, but I think Ploto was suggesting a trip with the grandparents, not you. Peel yourself away from the kid, S-i-D! :lol

Yeah, I know...:depressed

[Drachen]

I understand this. My point being that I would have at least promoted the idea of her going and doing something on her own outside of her typical security blanket of familiarity. But most certainly would have been fine with her decision to not go. I just would have suggested a little more introspection before coming to that decision.

I'm not judging the OP but it seemed like he just jumped the gun because of his own insecurities "oh you don't want to go...cool don't go"...just like that without much consideration. Maybe he was a little scared. Again I wasn't there and I don't mean to pick him apart. Just kinda going off what I read.

I got the impression that she was looking for validation for being scared and as a parent I don't typically validate those emotions for something like this. Not all the time of course but in this instance I would have attempted to liberate her a bit.

FWIW I would have been scared too. Not at the situation, but I am really wary of Mexico right now. Before you say "but cancun is far away from the trouble areas" just last year (or maybe a year and a half ago) the Mayor of cancun was arrested for conspiring with the cartels

[SpurinDallas]

But her strong personal decision was NOT to go. Would not letting her make this choice and not forcing her to do something against her wishes be in line with her developing the independence to do as she wishes. Dad was happy to have her go and respected her choice not to do so.

Yeah, at first, I thought, awesome. She has really been a big help these past couple of weeks with the baby coming home so I was even asking my mother in law just the day before about how much spending money she would need. But once she said she wasn't comfortable going, I didn't push the issue. Maybe I should have. Who knows.

[ploto]

I had the same response to it being in Mexico. I would not go there and I am quite a bit older than 12. I know people who had major problems in the airport in Mexico.

[BacktoBasics]

FWIW I would have been scared too. Not at the situation, but I am really wary of Mexico right now. Before you say "but cancun is far away from the trouble areas" just last year (or maybe a year and a half ago) the Mayor of cancun was arrested for conspiring with the cartelsCertainly a valid point. I'm definitely guilty of preaching to the essence of the topic without considering the specifics.

Mexico is certainly a more than legit concern.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

But her strong personal decision was NOT to go. Would not letting her make this choice and not forcing her to do something against her wishes be in line with her developing the independence to do as she wishes. Dad was happy to have her go and respected her choice not to do so.

Yeah. That's what I thought. So what. The girl doesn't want to go. Shouldn't it be what's comfortable with her? At 22 I can understand "intervening" but at 12?? And, no I don't have a kid. Just seems the kid's wishes aren't being taken into consideration.

[BacktoBasics]

Yeah. That's what I thought. So what. The girl doesn't want to go. Shouldn't it be what's comfortable with her? At 22 I can understand "intervening" but at 12?? And, no I don't have a kid. Just seems the kid's wishes aren't being taken into consideration.Well does she legitimately not want to go or was just looking for an excuse or validation because she was scared to do something she's never done before.

I think there's a difference don't you.

[SpurinDallas]

Well does she legitimately not want to go or was just looking for an excuse or validation because she was scared to do something she's never done before.

I think there's a difference don't you.

She was just nervous going without us. We've been to Cancun about 8 times already, so she knows what its like out there and absolutely loves it too.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Well does she legitimately not want to go or was just looking for an excuse or validation because she was scared to do something she's never done before.

I think there's a difference don't you.

What ever is comfortable to the kid. She's going with her grandparents. What is she "scared" of? What could she be scared of? Now I don't know if she has other "scared" issues like sleeping with a night light, having trouble making friends at school and such, but to me what Did has laid out this little kid does not want to go. Should it be "gotten to the bottom of"? Maybe not. She's 12

[BacktoBasics]

She was just nervous going without us. We've been to Cancun about 8 times already, so she knows what its like out there and absolutely loves it too.
I don't want to reach here but maybe she didn't want to hurt your feelings by going and by saying she "doesn't" want to go she was actually looking for approval. Its a lot easier to do something with Mom and Dads blessing when you feel as though what you decide without their approval may hurt their feelings. You know "mom and dad want me to go and have a good time so I don't feel so bad leaving them behind".

Just saying.

[SpurinDallas]

I don't want to reach here but maybe she didn't want to hurt your feelings by going and by saying she "doesn't" want to go she was actually looking for approval. Its a lot easier to do something with Mom and Dads blessing when you feel as though what you decide without their approval may hurt their feelings. You know "mom and dad want me to go and have a good time so I don't feel so bad leaving them behind".

Just saying.

She had my blessing. I told her days before if she wanted to go she could and I would give her money to spend out there. But when they needed her final answer last night, thats when she said she would be nervous to go without us because its far and she had never been away from us for that long. Maybe I should have eased her worries, but the thought of her being homesick without us 100's of miles away for a week killed me, so I told her she didn't have to go, and she was ok with it, actually seemed relieved.

[BacktoBasics]

She was just nervous going without us. We've been to Cancun about 8 times already, so she knows what its like out there and absolutely loves it too.


What ever is comfortable to the kid. She's going with her grandparents. What is she "scared" of? What could she be scared of? Now I don't know if she has other "scared" issues like sleeping with a night light, having trouble making friends at school and such, but to me what Did has laid out this little kid does not want to go. Should it be "gotten to the bottom of"? Maybe not. She's 12Fair enough. Neither of us were there. I'm advocating a different perspective.

I know my son told me the other day he didn't want to go fishing with his uncle and wanted to stay home. I knew it was because I had to work and couldn't go to. He eventually went and had a good time. He just needed some prodding.

I know that's not the most comparable story but the point is that kids typically don't want to do shit that might hurt mom and dads feelings. That is until their about 16. Then its deliberate.

[BacktoBasics]

She had my blessing. I told her days before if she wanted to go she could and I would give her money to spend out there. But when they needed her final answer last night, thats when she said she would be nervous to go without us because its far and she had never been away from us for that long. Maybe I should have eased her worries, but the thought of her being homesick without us 100's of miles away for a week killed me, so I told her she didn't have to go, and she was ok with it, actually seemed relieved.No one knows your kids better than you do.

[ohmwrecker]

Hell yes I do! Bring it on. I'll finally get to sleep an entire night without having to wake up for our baby's feedings. :lol

Maybe you could spend the extra time to learning how to use punctuation and paragraphs.

[thispego]

I think I just baby my kids too much.

[Sportcamper]

This really is not hard…Do something fun with your daughter instead…Dads need to side with their daughters & keep the in-laws in check…

[Viva Las Espuelas]

so I told her she didn't have to go, and she was ok with it, actually seemed relieved.
Poor girl. Plus, I forgot you just brought in a new member to the house and I'm sure that's another factor to her decision. I know when my sister was born, I was 8, I never wanted to be away from home too long. I didn't want my parents treating her better than me :nope :D

[ploto]

Or maybe she does not want to be away from her baby sister.

[Girasuck]

the only way to prevent this and any future problems is to kill the in-laws.

I do every night in my dreams.

[koriwhat]

granny is probably gonna gut the kid, fill her up with 10 kilos, and bring her back to the states weekend at bernie style.

[JudynTX]

Would this argument have happened if the trip was to go to Disneyworld? :D

How's that new baby?