Hardheaded Socialism Makes Canada Richer Than U.S.

[Capt Bringdown]

The Average Canadian is Now Richer than the Average American (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-15/hardheaded-socialism-makes-canada-richer-than-u-s-.html)


On July 1, Canada Day, Canadians awoke to a startling, if pleasant, piece of news: For the first time in recent history, the average Canadian is richer than the average American.

Both liberals and conservatives in the U.S. have tried to use the Canadian example to promote their arguments: The left says Canada shows the rewards of financial regulation and socialism, while the right likes to vaunt the brutal cuts made to Canadian social programs in the 1990s, which set the stage for economic recovery.

The truth is that both sides are right. Since the 1990s, Canada has pursued a hardheaded (even ruthless), fiscally conservative form of socialism.

Growth is required to pay for social programs, and social programs that increase opportunity and social integration are the best way to ensure growth over the long term. Social programs and robust capitalism are not, as so many would have you believe, inherently opposed propositions. Both are required for meaningful national prosperity.

- more --> (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-15/hardheaded-socialism-makes-canada-richer-than-u-s-.html)

[mavs>spurs]

wonder what it's like when controlled for world policing and trillions wasted on bs wars :lol

bet our net worth would be a lot higher then

[FuzzyLumpkins]

wonder what it's like when controlled for world policing and trillions wasted on bs wars :lol

bet our net worth would be a lot higher then

Hmm, which party or political spectrum has the hawks?

[mavs>spurs]

both sides. i was just reading an article where obama told syria they'd have to wait until after the election. obama is gonna start up his own shit after november just watch.

they do this shit in conjuction while keeping up the facade that they're actually in constant disagreement.

[Drachen]

both sides. i was just reading an article where obama told syria they'd have to wait until after the election. obama is gonna start up his own shit after november just watch.

they do this shit in conjuction while keeping up the facade that they're actually in constant disagreement.

Link?

I am not trying to be a d-bag, but I know he was caught on a live microphone telling the Russian Prime Minister that he would have to wait until after the election to discuss a nuclear reduction treaty and the guy responded with something like "of course, I will let putin know."

I am just wondering if you are mixing these up somehow.

[mavs>spurs]

Link?

I am not trying to be a d-bag, but I know he was caught on a live microphone telling the Russian Prime Minister that he would have to wait until after the election to discuss a nuclear reduction treaty and the guy responded with something like "of course, I will let putin know."

I am just wondering if you are mixing these up somehow.

nah that's true too, but this one was new

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9404452/US-refuses-to-help-Syrian-rebels-until-after-election.html


US refuses to help Syrian rebels until after election
Barack Obama’s US government has warned its western allies and Syria’s opposition groups that it can do nothing to intervene in the country’s crisis until after November’s presidential election, The Daily Telegraph has learned.

Barack Obama’s US government has warned its western allies and Syria’s opposition groups that it can do nothing to intervene in the country’s crisis until after November’s presidential election Photo: AP
By Peter Foster in Washington9:58PM BST 16 Jul 2012493 Comments
Despite mounting fury from the Syrian rebels, who are seeking assistance for their efforts to overthrow the Syrian president Bashar al-Assad, the White House has refused all requests for heavy weapons and intelligence support.
Syrian lobby groups in Washington, who only a few weeks ago were expressing hope that the Obama administration might give a green light to the supply of anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles, said they had now been forced to “take a reality pill” by the US government.
The Telegraph understands that the Syrian Support Group (SSG), the political wing of the Free Syrian Army (FSA), recently presented American officials with a document requesting 1,000 RPG-29 anti-tank missiles, 500 SAM-7 rockets, 750 23mm machine guns as well as body armour and secure satellite phones. They also asked for $6m to pay rebel fighters as they battle the regime. All their requests were rejected.
“Basically the message is very clear; nothing is going to happen until after the election, in fact nothing will happen until after inauguration [Jan 2013]. And that is the same message coming from everyone, including the Turks and the Qataris,” said a Washington lobbyist for the group.
The Obama administration has also made clear to its allies that it will not intervene, a message that was carried to London last week by Tom Donilon, the White House National Security Adviser, who made a low-profile stop en route to Israel.
Sources in Washington who were familiar with the matter said Mr Donilon had made it “abundantly clear” that there was no room for increased US involvement in Syria.
Syrian lobby groups in Washington have thus far been reluctant to speak publicly about their frustrations with the Obama government for fear of alienating White House officials, but also giving succor to the Assad regime.
However, a third lobby group contacted by The Telegraph, but who asked to remain anonymous, said that they too had come up against a White House 'red line’, despite some earlier receptiveness from the State Department.
“No-one wants to touch this,” the group’s representative said, “Not the White House, not the Congressional committee on foreign affairs. It is clear we will have to play a longer game.”
Fears that the disparate rebel groups are being infiltrated by Al Qa’eda have also reduced appetite in the US for better arming the rebels, either directly or with the help of third-party countries such as Libya, Qatar or Saudi Arabia.
The American position means there is little hope of any swift resolution to the Syrian crisis, with the stage set instead for a protracted civil war. Russia repeated yesterday that it was “unrealistic” of the West to expect the country to convince Mr Assad to step down.
Abdulbaset Sieda, chairman of the official Syrian National Council, the other principal opposition group, called on the US not to abandon the rebels for the sake of domestic political calculations, following the latest massacre in the village of Tremseh last week.
“We want for America and the Western countries to carry out their responsibilities,” he said “With regard to America, specifically, we would like to say to President Obama that waiting for election day to make the right decision on Syria is unacceptable for the Syrians.
“We cannot understand that a superpower ignores the killing of tens of thousands of Syrian civilians because of an election campaign that a president may win or lose. That’s why we are saying there is work that must take place at the Security Council.”
In a bid to build credibility with the US and western allies, the Syrian Support Group which was set up to represent the Free Syrian Army (FSA) is now planning to release a “Declaration” signed by nine key rebel commanders.
The document, which is currently circulating in Syria and has been seen by The Telegraph, pledges the FSA to work under a civilian government, commits to the ideals of democracy and promises to protect minorities.
However analysts said that combination of a war-weary public, a general election campaign and the spectre of weapons falling into the hands of radical Islamists continued to mitigate against increased US intervention.
Jonathan Schanzer, vice president of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies think-tank in Washington, which has lobbied for intervention, said division among Republicans had also helped to give the Obama administration a 'free pass’ politically.
“The Right is split between those who say the US has a moral imperative to intervene and those who say Syria is an enemy of the US and there is no national interest in intervening. The result is that no-one want’s to touch this.
“The reality is that the US appears to have no coherent foreign policy since the Arab Spring. It is not clear why we helped topple Gaddafi and we let Mubarak fall but we let Assad stay in power.
“The gruesome, cynical truth is that while Kofi Annan 'spins his wheels’ at the UN, there is a tacit understanding with Assad. He knows where his 'red lines’ are; if he keeps the massacres beneath a certain level, he knows the US will not do anything to intervene.”

[Drachen]

Ah, ok, thank you for this. sigh.

I will be honest, it is really hard for me to say "No No No" to even limited (see libya) engagement to stop this, but at the same time I am always pissed that we are the world police so I guess I have to pick a side. I feel like if there is logistical support that we can give that doesn't really cost us anything else then we should do it (lets face it, we are already monitoring the hell out of them, might as well do something with that info). Other than that, I start to have a problem with it.

[Wild Cobra]

LOL...

Canada hasn't raised their standard over ours by anything they did. We are simply sinking.

[Latarian Milton]

medvedev will have no interest discussing something like nuclear deduction with the US ex-president after the election imho

[mavs>spurs]

medvedev will have no interest discussing something like nuclear deduction with the US ex-president after the election imho

:lmao

[Drachen]

:lmao

Oh I don't know, George Bush can see into his boss' soul, so if they both have time after the election, medvedev may make some time for him.

:downspin:

[ElNono]

BTW, Canada was actually able to run a surplus and pay off debt from 1998 to 2007... and that's while having a publicly funded healthcare system...

[mavs>spurs]

they also didn't have to pay trillions for bs wars and also didn't even have to pay for a military since we do that for them

[Wild Cobra]

they also didn't have to pay trillions for bs wars and also didn't even have to pay for a military since we do that for them
They don't need a military. they have us to protect them!

[mercos]

they also didn't have to pay trillions for bs wars and also didn't even have to pay for a military since we do that for them

We didn't have to pay for any wars either, to be fair. Dubs charged them to his Chinese credit card, along with his tax cuts that he did not offset with budget cuts. We will have to pay for them one day, but that is future America's problem. Future America is screwed.

I'll go out on a limb and say we have more millionaires and billionaires than Canada. I'd also guess that if you compared the top 100 richest US citizens with the top 100 Canadian citizens, it would be another lopsided comparison. This is just further evidence of what most economists have known for some time. Trickle down economics is great for the rich, not so much for everyone else and the country as a whole.

[ElNono]

they also didn't have to pay trillions for bs wars and also didn't even have to pay for a military since we do that for them

They certainly have a military but obviously only as big as what they deem necessary to protect their own country. Agree on the trillion dollar bs wars though. It should also be noted that they pay substantially more taxes than we do.

[boutons_deux]

15 Developed Countries With Higher Median Wealth Than The U.S.

According to a report by Credit Suisse, as of last year 15 nations in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development had higher median wealth than the United States. As Kenneth Thomas noted at Middle Class Political Economist, “It turns out that lots of OECD countries, including economic basket cases Italy, Spain, and Ireland, have higher median wealth than we do.”

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/medianwealth_small.jpg

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/07/19/546821/median-oecd-wealth-chart/

[coyotes_geek]

The key to Canada's success isn't hardheaded socialism. It's fiscal responsibility and a shitload of oil.

[coyotes_geek]

BTW, Canada was actually able to run a surplus and pay off debt from 1998 to 2007... and that's while having a publicly funded healthcare system...

Yep. Spend money on whatever you want, just don't let your spending get out of whack with your revenues and good things will happen.

[boutons_deux]

Canada's cost per capita for health care is much lower than USA's.

US health care is an intentionally broken vampire-squid sucking Americans wealth down.

[Wild Cobra]

15 Developed Countries With Higher Median Wealth Than The U.S.

According to a report by Credit Suisse, as of last year 15 nations in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development had higher median wealth than the United States. As Kenneth Thomas noted at Middle Class Political Economist, “It turns out that lots of OECD countries, including economic basket cases Italy, Spain, and Ireland, have higher median wealth than we do.”

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/medianwealth_small.jpg

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/07/19/546821/median-oecd-wealth-chart/
The article doesn't specify "wealth." If it's net wealth, that would be because so many people are in debt beyond their tangible assets. It's not an indication that people in these other countries live better. They just have less debt.

[Wild Cobra]

According to the link I skimmed in the article, it appears they use net wealth. This means it is not an indication of how good or bad people are doing. More likely, the 15 nations higher than us have a populous with a lower debt to income ratio.

[boutons_deux]

The article doesn't specify "wealth." If it's net wealth, that would be because so many people are in debt beyond their tangible assets. It's not an indication that people in these other countries live better. They just have less debt.

Wealth is very probably net wealth.

Since when does debt not get subtracted from assets to determine net wealth, net worth?

Spin some other angle

[boutons_deux]

St Ronnie's 15% capital gains tax, and dubya estate tax cuts greatlyl increased inequality, while household incomes flattened.



American Dynasty: Wal-Mart's Walton Family Has the Wealth of 48.8 Million Families Combined

Concretely, between 2007 and 2010, while median family wealth fell by 38.8 percent, the wealth of the Walton family members rose from $73.3 billion to $89.5 billion…In 2007, it was reported that the Walton family wealth was as large as the bottom 35 million families in the wealth distribution combined, or 30.5 percent of all American families.

And in 2010, as the Walton’s wealth has risen and most other Americans’ wealth declined, it is now the case that the Walton family wealth is as large as the bottom 48.8 million families in the wealth distribution (constituting 41.5 percent of all American families) combined.

At the same time that the Waltons have amassed an ever larger fortune, Congress decided to cut the estate tax, a policy for which the Waltons have been pushing for years. And now that the estate tax cut is in place, conservatives are doing everything they can to ensure it doesn’t go away, allowing the Waltons to amass even larger amounts of wealth.

http://www.alternet.org/module/printversion/newsandviews/1034216

[TeyshaBlue]

15 Developed Countries With Higher Median Wealth Than The U.S.

According to a report by Credit Suisse, as of last year 15 nations in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development had higher median wealth than the United States. As Kenneth Thomas noted at Middle Class Political Economist, “It turns out that lots of OECD countries, including economic basket cases Italy, Spain, and Ireland, have higher median wealth than we do.”

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/medianwealth_small.jpg

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/07/19/546821/median-oecd-wealth-chart/


Wealth is very probably net wealth.

Since when does debt not get subtracted from assets to determine net wealth, net worth?

lol thinkprogress.

1. Since you didn't bother to read the report, they are measuring "net wealth".
2. Since you nor thinkprogress bothered to differentiate the types of wealth being measured, it's lumping in non-financial assets with financial assets. Guess which 3 countries listed above have greater non-financial assets?


think for yourself on occasion, bot.

[TeyshaBlue]

3. It's a fucking wild-assed guess.

"The second step involves constructing the pattern of wealth holdings within nations. Direct data
on the distribution of wealth are available for 22 countries. Inspection of data for these countries
suggests a relationship between wealth distribution and income distribution which can be
exploited in order to provide a rough estimate of wealth distribution for 141 other countries
which have data on income distribution but not on wealth ownership.
It is well recognized that the traditional sources of wealth distribution data are unlikely to provide
an accurate picture of wealth ownership in the top-tail of the distribution. To overcome this
deficiency, the third step makes use of the information in the “Rich Lists” published by Forbes
Magazine and elsewhere to adjust the wealth distribution pattern in the highest wealth ranges.
Implementing these procedures leaves 50 countries for which it is difficult to estimate either the
level of household wealth or the distribution of wealth, or both. Usually the countries concerned
are small (e.g. Andorra, Bermuda, Guatemala, Monaco) or semi-detached from the global
economy (e.g. Afghanistan, Cuba, Myanmar, North Korea), but not in every instance (e.g.
Angola, Nigeria). For our estimates of the pattern of global wealth, we assign these countries
the average level and distribution of the region and income class to which they belong. This is
done in preference to omitting the countries altogether, which would implicitly assume that their
pattern of wealth holdings matches the world average."

[clambake]

stupid fuck? c'mon blue....that ain't like you.

[TeyshaBlue]

shup, stupid rake fighter.:ihit

fine. I edited it.:rollin

[da_suns_fan]

nah that's true too, but this one was new

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9404452/US-refuses-to-help-Syrian-rebels-until-after-election.html

Obama is such a pussy.

[2centsworth]

Canada socialist hahaha. Canadiens I know hate their
Health plan, but love their dirty Oil and all the
Jobsand money that comes along with it.

[DarrinS]

What's the population of Canada vs the US?

[ElNono]

What's the population of Canada vs the US?

Don't worry, we still spend almost twice as much per capita on healthcare than they do...

[boutons_deux]

Canada socialist hahaha. Canadiens I know hate their
Health plan, but love their dirty Oil and all the
Jobsand money that comes along with it.

Ask them if they want to swap their health system for US's sick system.

Everybody's a whore, everybody can be bought with enough (oil) money.

[boutons_deux]

Bottom Half Of American Households Have Just 1 Percent Of Nation’s Wealth

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/WealthChart.jpg

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/07/19/552821/bottom-half-americans-one-percent-wealt/

[FuzzyLumpkins]

What's the population of Canada vs the US?

Whats the per capita income of Canada versus the US?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Canada socialist hahaha. Canadiens I know hate their
Health plan, but love their dirty Oil and all the
Jobsand money that comes along with it.

I always hear this anecdote from 'conservatives' but then I look at legitimate polling.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/11899/us-trails-canada-britain-healthcare-ratings.aspx

Who should I believe I wonder....

Anecdotally the 5 Canadians that I know well all say they like their health care.

[boutons_deux]

New Republican Tax Plan Eliminates $11 Billion In Tax Credits For Working Families

The child tax credit: The ARRA dropped the amount of income a household must earn to qualify for this credit — which provides any household as much as $1,000 per child — from $12,500 down to $3,000. The Hatch-McConnell plan would let this extension expire, jacking up the threshold to $13,300 next year. This would deny 8.9 million working families, with 16.4 million children, a total of $7.6 billion in assistance for 2013 alone.

The Earned Income Tax Credit: Most families that qualify for this credit have at least one child. The ARRA increased it specifically for families with three or more children, from 40 percent to 45 percent of their qualifying income. Above a certain level of income, the credit phases out, but the ARRA also pushed that phase-out back to a higher level for married couples. The Hatch-McConnell plan would allow both of these changes to expire as well, for a total loss of $3.4 billion for 6.5 million families with 15.9 million children.

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/07/19/552411/gop-kills-11b-for-families/

[boutons_deux]

Big Corporations Are Making Huge Profits While Keeping Their Employees Stuck At Minimum Wage

- The majority (66 percent) of low‐wage workers are not employed by small businesses, but rather by large corporations with over 100 employees;

– The 50 largest employers of low‐wage workers have largely recovered from the recession and most are in strong financial positions: 92 percent were profitable last year; 78 percent have been profitable for the last three years; 75 percent have higher revenues now than before the recession; 73 percent have higher cash holdings; and 63 percent have higher operating margins (a measure of profitability);

– Top executive compensation averaged $9.4 million last year at these firms, and they have returned $174.8 billion to shareholders in dividends or share buybacks over the past five years.

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/lowwageprofits.jpg

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/07/19/550991/corporations-profits-minimum-wag/

[TeyshaBlue]

I always hear this anecdote from 'conservatives' but then I look at legitimate polling.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/11899/us-trails-canada-britain-healthcare-ratings.aspx

Who should I believe I wonder....

Anecdotally the 5 Canadians that I know well all say they like their health care.

I know a boat load of 'em too. They agree.

[DarrinS]

I always hear this anecdote from 'conservatives' but then I look at legitimate polling.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/11899/us-trails-canada-britain-healthcare-ratings.aspx

Who should I believe I wonder....

Anecdotally the 5 Canadians that I know well all say they like their health care.

Fexz8Ij-OBQ

[DarkReign]

Interesting that a developed nation of 40 million has a higher average wealth index than a developed nation of 400 million.

Interesting in that it isnt interesting at all.

[coyotes_geek]

Interesting that a developed nation of 40 million has a higher average wealth index than a developed nation of 400 million.

Interesting in that it isnt interesting at all.

Canada does have some inherent advantages built in.

[boutons_deux]

Interesting that a developed nation of 40 million has a higher average wealth index than a developed nation of 400 million.

Interesting in that it isnt interesting at all.

So a bigger country has the disadvantage of proportionately more unwealthy people? Size alone makes the difference?

Notice that the industrial/developed "social democracies" are all higher than USA:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_inequality-adjusted_HDI

The reason the VRWC slanders "socialism" non-stop is that social democracy means wider wealth distribution, iow, less for the 1% and more for the 99%.

With the 1% holding USA by its short and curlies, America is fucked and unfuckable, and getting fucked more all the time.

[baseline bum]

The social democracies are all subsidised by American taxpayers since we're the ones dumping tons of money into the military. Must be nice for people in these nations to have an ally that bleeds its own people dry so they don't have to pay for military protection.

[boutons_deux]

bullshit

USA isn't defending those countries from anything.

the MIC will get its $700B ($1.5T when Dept of State included), every year, with increases, to make the world safe for the US corps and US resource extraction.

[Drachen]

I know a boat load of 'em too. They agree.

Don't you mean a "boot load", eh?




(bah-dum tssss)

[Drachen]

Interesting that a developed nation of 40 million has a higher average wealth index than a developed nation of 400 million.

Interesting in that it isnt interesting at all.

Yeah, this doesn't really say anything. You used the word "average" which means that you understand that the results have been normalized so that the two could be directly compared.

[DarrinS]

What are the demographics of Canada vs the US?

[Drachen]

What are the demographics of Canada vs the US?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=demographics+of+canada

[resistanze]

The social democracies are all subsidised by American taxpayers since we're the ones dumping tons of money into the military. Must be nice for people in these nations to have an ally that bleeds its own people dry so they don't have to pay for military protection.

Military protection from who? Iraq and Afghanistan? :lol

I'm pretty sure many of these countries (including Canada) have their own military forces, and ours has been in that clusterfuck of Afghanistan for the past decade. America's decision to stockpile more nukes than all countries combined and expand their military reach to every corner of the Earth is America's choice alone. The U.S. military isn't setting up shop in Saudi Arabia for their protection, I'll tell you that.

[TeyshaBlue]

Treaties.

[DarkReign]

Treaties.

Bam. NATO for one, NAFTA for another.