Did the state make you great?

[DarrinS]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/charles-krauthammer-did-the-state-make-you-great/2012/07/19/gJQAbZOiwW_story.html




“If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen.”

— Barack Obama,

Roanoke, Va., July 13


And who might that somebody else be? Government, says Obama. It built the roads you drive on. It provided the teacher who inspired you. It “created the Internet.” It represents the embodiment of “we’re in this together” social solidarity that, in Obama’s view, is the essential origin of individual and national achievement.

To say that all individuals are embedded in and the product of society is banal. Obama rises above banality by means of fallacy: equating society with government, the collectivity with the state. Of course we are shaped by our milieu. But the most formative, most important influence on the individual is not government. It is civil society, those elements of the collectivity that lie outside government: family, neighborhood, church, Rotary club, PTA, the voluntary associations that Tocqueville understood to be the genius of America and source of its energy and freedom.

Moreover, the greatest threat to a robust, autonomous civil society is the ever-growing Leviathan state and those like Obama who see it as the ultimate expression of the collective.

Obama compounds the fallacy by declaring the state to be the font of entrepreneurial success. How so? It created the infrastructure — roads, bridges, schools, Internet — off which we all thrive.

Absurd. We don’t credit the Swiss postal service with the Special Theory of Relativity because it transmitted Einstein’s manuscript to the Annalen der Physik. Everyone drives the roads, goes to school, uses the mails. So did Steve Jobs. Yet only he created the Mac and the iPad.

Obama’s infrastructure argument is easily refuted by what is essentially a controlled social experiment. Roads and schools are the constant. What’s variable is the energy, enterprise, risk-taking, hard work and genius of the individual. It is therefore precisely those individual characteristics, not the communal utilities, that account for the different outcomes.

The ultimate Obama fallacy, however, is the conceit that belief in the value of infrastructure — and willingness to invest in its creation and maintenance — is what divides liberals from conservatives.

More nonsense. Infrastructure is not a liberal idea, nor is it particularly new. The Via Appia was built 2,300 years ago. The Romans built aqueducts, too. And sewers. Since forever, infrastructure has been consensually understood to be a core function of government.

The argument between left and right is about what you do beyond infrastructure. It’s about transfer payments and redistributionist taxation, about geometrically expanding entitlements, about tax breaks and subsidies to induce actions pleasing to central planners. It’s about free contraceptives for privileged students and welfare without work — the latest Obama entitlement-by-decree that would fatally undermine the great bipartisan welfare reform of 1996. It’s about endless government handouts that, ironically, are crowding out necessary spending on, yes, infrastructure.

What divides liberals and conservatives is not roads and bridges but Julia’s world, an Obama campaign creation that may be the most self-revealing parody of liberalism ever conceived. It’s a series of cartoon illustrations in which a fictional Julia is swaddled and subsidized throughout her life by an all- giving government of bottomless pockets and “Queen for a Day” magnanimity. At every stage, the state is there to provide — preschool classes and cut-rate college loans, birth control and maternity care, business loans and retirement. The only time she’s on her own is at her grave site.

Julia’s world is totally atomized. It contains no friends, no community and, of course, no spouse. Who needs one? She’s married to the provider state.

Or to put it slightly differently, the “Life of Julia” represents the paradigmatic Obama political philosophy: citizen as orphan child. For the conservative, providing for every need is the duty that government owes to actual orphan children. Not to supposedly autonomous adults.

Beyond infrastructure, the conservative sees the proper role of government as providing not European-style universal entitlements but a firm safety net, meaning Julia-like treatment for those who really cannot make it on their own — those too young or too old, too mentally or physically impaired, to provide for themselves.

Limited government so conceived has two indispensable advantages. It avoids inexorable European-style national insolvency. And it avoids breeding debilitating individual dependency. It encourages and celebrates character, independence, energy, hard work as the foundations of a free society and a thriving economy — precisely the virtues Obama discounts and devalues in his accounting of the wealth of nations.

[Blake]

no doubt Obama wants that one back.

[boutons_deux]

Krauthammer and his extremist WaPo twin Geo Will really ought to be working at Fox Repug propaganda network.

[boutons_deux]

no doubt Obama wants that one back.

the right-wing lie factory is totally lying about his message.

[coyotes_geek]

the right-wing lie factory is totally lying about his message.

Obama still wants that one back.

[Drachen]

I wouldn't be surprised if Obama wants it back, just so that he can say the exact same thing, but shuffle the words around. Unfortunately, putting those two phrases together, in that order, and by themselves, means something totally different than if one could actually read and not have things force fed to them.

Que' Cera

DarrinS and his ilk are the reason that speeches are given at an 8th grade level. As Scott has said several times, nuance has no place in todays American politics.

[coyotes_geek]

I wouldn't be surprised if Obama wants it back, just so that he can say the exact same thing, but shuffle the words around. Unfortunately, putting those two phrases together, in that order, and by themselves, means something totally different than if one could actually read and not have things force fed to them.

Que' Cera

Yoni and his ilk are the reason that speeches are given at an 8th grade level. As Scott has said several times, nuance has no place in todays American politics.

Certainly true. That being said I think the OP is making a fair attempt at interpreting Obama's remarks and gives an honest, contrarian viewpoint.

[vy65]

Damn good article. Even though there's a strong albeit unstated libertarian thread running through it, still makes a good point.

lol boutons

[Clipper Nation]

Obama still wants that one back.

Yep... luckily for Obama though, Willard has buried it with his tax returns drama...

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I understand what Obama was trying to say, but my god, he worded it poorly and Blake is right about him wanting that one back.

He's lucky there won't be an evil conspiracy involving batman to demonize him.

[coyotes_geek]

Yep... luckily for Obama though, Willard has buried it with his tax returns drama...

Not really. The only people who "care" about things like Obama's statement and Willard's taxes are red & blue team members. Red team isn't bothered by Willard's taxes, so as far as their concerned there's nothing burying Obama's "you didn't build that" comment. Same applies for Blue team who doesn't see anything wrong with Obama's comment and is certain that Willard's taxes are much more important.

[Drachen]

Certainly true. That being said I think the OP is making a fair attempt at interpreting Obama's remarks and gives an honest, contrarian viewpoint.

Fair enough, This is at least a more reasonable opposing view. I don't agree that he said government this or government that (he didn't). I have a problem here:


Roads and schools are the constant. What’s variable is the energy, enterprise, risk-taking, hard work and genius of the individual

because both the constant and the variable make up the equation and therefore without the constant, the equation is still not the same (thus the "we succeed because of our own initiate, but also because of ....)


It avoids inexorable European-style national insolvency

This is dumb since the countries which have failed, did so for variant reasons. I would posit that the only one that failed due to the reasons that the author mentioned is Greece. Not Iceland, or Ireland, etc. Additionally, Germany has a very strong economy even though it has many of the social programs that are abhored on the right.

[Clipper Nation]

I'm a member of neither team and I care about that..... I find it hypocritical for someone who loved to propose tax hikes in Massachusetts to be so against proving whether he actually paid all his taxes....

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Not really. The only people who "care" about things like Obama's statement and Willard's taxes are red & blue team members. Red team isn't bothered by Willard's taxes, so as far as their concerned there's nothing burying Obama's "you didn't build that" comment. Same applies for Blue team who doesn't see anything wrong with Obama's comment and is certain that Willard's taxes are much more important.
I see what you're saying, but Willard's taxes and Bain have been blown out of proportion to such a large extreme that I have a hard time believing only blue team cares about it at this point.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Deos anyone think darrins actually understood the context of that statement? Either he is stupid or dishonest..



"There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me because they want to give something back," the president said. "If you've been successful, you didn't get there on your own. You didn't get there on your own. I'm always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something -- there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there.

"If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen," he said. "The Internet didn't get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet."

[boutons_deux]

The fatal error in K's thesis is that fucked up America, stuck in the Banksters' Great (jobs) Depression, is that this IS a Repug economy, with govt %age of GDP at all time low (spending) and (corporate) taxes as %age of total at an all time low.

[TeyshaBlue]

:Facepalm

[mercos]

The state doesn't make anyone great, and Obama did not insinuate that. The government can help, and in fact is needed to compete in the global economy. Right wingers can not seem to understand that for profit motives are not always the best option for progress.

[boutons_deux]

"I don't care about poor people"

"I like firing people"

--Best Regards, Gecko

[Drachen]

"I don't care about poor people"

"I like firing people"

--Best Regards, Gecko

Using these are equally as stupid as the BO quote above.

[DarrinS]

Using these are equally as stupid as the BO quote above.

I agree that what BO said was stupid. It's a retread of an Elizabeth Warren rant, so no surprise there.

[ChumpDumper]

Roads and schools are the constant. Well that's not true.

[ChumpDumper]

i guess the roads are constant in Austin, and that's the problem.

[mavs>spurs]

It's funny watching all the liberal apologists try to make excuses for Obama whilst simultaneously knowing they're in the wrong. Obama just saying what Hitler, Mao, Stalin and others said before him.

The state is now God.

[boutons_deux]

"state is now God"

right-wing anti-govt bullshit.

the govt is nothing but a surrogate for corporate power, which pays whores like Repugs, Fox, etc to say Govt Is The Problem, to corporate guilt.

[ChumpDumper]

lol m>s going full Alex Jones

[mavs>spurs]

"state is now God"

right-wing anti-govt bullshit.

the govt is nothing but a surrogate for corporate power, which pays whores like Repugs, Fox, etc to say Govt Is The Problem, to corporate guilt.

Hey Boutons how do you feel about your man Obama and his corporate cronyism with GE? Shut down the competition for them didn't he hehe.

[mavs>spurs]

lol m>s going full Alex Jones

don't worry it's okay becuase obama said it.

you're safe.

[Clipper Nation]

"state is now God"

right-wing anti-govt bullshit.

the govt is nothing but a surrogate for corporate power, which pays whores like Repugs, Fox, etc to say Govt Is The Problem, to corporate guilt.

Obama's in charge of this "surrogate for corporate power," so you pretty much just admitted that he's just as much of a corporatist as your hated "Repugs", B.... :lmao

[ChumpDumper]

don't worry it's okay becuase obama said it.

you're safe.He didn't say what you say he said.

You said what Alex Jones said.

[mavs>spurs]

Hey chump, i got a question for ya.

Did the state make you great?

[George Gervin's Afro]

It's funny watching all the liberal apologists try to make excuses for Obama whilst simultaneously knowing they're in the wrong. Obama just saying what Hitler, Mao, Stalin and others said before him.

The state is now God.

I guess you can't read....


"There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me because they want to give something back," the president said. "If you've been successful, you didn't get there on your own. You didn't get there on your own. I'm always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something -- there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there.

"If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen," he said. "The Internet didn't get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet."

you are either stupid or intellectually dishonest.. are you going to keep repeating your stupid talking points and ignore what he actually said?

[DarrinS]

you are either stupid or intellectually dishonest.. are you going to keep repeating your stupid talking points and ignore what he actually said?


No one is ignoring what he actually said -- we are reading what he actually said.

[mavs>spurs]

i knew the full context of what he said, and still disagree with it. it's all clever word play, hiding things in plain view like a trojan horse. context considered, what he said was fucking scary. we are drifting further and further away from what it means to be an american. this ideaology is all screwed up. he takes a good message, and weaves a little bit of propaganda into it, praising the government. sorry but the state is not my God.

[George Gervin's Afro]

No one is ignoring what he actually said -- we are reading what he actually said.

so then you acknowledge that he was referring to roads and bridges when he mentioned that business owners didn't build them... got it

[ChumpDumper]

Hey chump, i got a question for ya.

Did the state make you great?It certainly made it easier for me to drive around and do my job.

I got a question for you, but you never answer them anyway.

[mavs>spurs]

It certainly made it easier for me to drive around and do my job.

I got a question for you, but you never answer them anyway.

they made it easier for you by using your own tax money. so basically, you paid for that.

[ChumpDumper]

they made it easier for you by using your own tax money. so basically, you paid for that.Yep. The state built some necessary infrastructure through the use of my taxes.

I'm glad we agree.

[mavs>spurs]

Yep. The state built some necessary infrastructure through the use of my taxes.

I'm glad we agree.

so basically the state isn't God at all, it needed you to make it happen and should probably only have limited role such as:

maintaining peace and order

maintaining infrastructure

protection from foreign threat


other than that, the state really needs to shrink, fall back and let the people prosper freely.

[mavs>spurs]

building infrastructure is actually a great example of the "need" for government. i agree with tax dollars going to build roads.

i disagree with them being used for domestic surveillance and wars that we the people do not want.

the state is not my God.

[DarrinS]

so basically the state isn't God at all, it needed you to make it happen.


Yep. They built that with OUR money.

[ChumpDumper]

so basically the state isn't God at allI never said it was.

That was Alex Jones.

[MannyIsGod]

Yep. They built that with OUR money.

So when you hire a contractor to build a home for you and you pay for it does that mean you built the home? Pointing out that the government plays a role in our success isn't something to run away form or vilify: its the obvious truth. Yes, we pay for it through tax dollars but that doesn't mean that government still isn't a facilitating and necessary part of the process.

If you don't agree with that, you're basically arguing for anarchy. Who here is an anarchist? Anyone?

[Jamtas#2]

So when you hire a contractor to build a home for you and you pay for it does that mean you built the home? Pointing out that the government plays a role in our success isn't something to run away form or vilify: its the obvious truth. Yes, we pay for it through tax dollars but that doesn't mean that government still isn't a facilitating and necessary part of the process.

If you don't agree with that, you're basically arguing for anarchy. Who here is an anarchist? Anyone?

No, but if I rip out and re-tile my bathroom and put in the labor, I don't credit the manufactures of the tile for my bathroom.

...was an out of context gaffe though, just like Romney's "fire people" comment and all the more distraction form either candidate actually talking about anything of substance that matters to the people.

[mavs>spurs]

I take issue with a guy who has ties to socialist ideology, coming in and expanding government rapidly under his tenure, and then pimping big gov right in our faces. If that clarifies things for the guys screaming that it was taken out of context. I think we all understood the full context and what was said.

[ChumpDumper]

I take issue with a guy who has ties to socialist ideology, coming in and expanding government rapidly under his tenure, and then pimping big gov right in our faces. If that clarifies things for the guys screaming that it was taken out of context. I think we all understood the full context and what was said.You obviously didn't.

You understood what Alex Jones said though.

[mavs>spurs]

I do understand it. He took a good message and weaved a bit of big gov propaganda into it. Coming from a guy who has been rapidly expanding the size of the federal government.

Obama slipped up and told us how he really felt.

[ChumpDumper]

I do understand it. He took a good message and weaved a bit of big gov propaganda into it. Coming from a guy who has been rapidly expanding the size of the federal government.

Obama slipped up and told us how he really felt.Jesus, how do you function being so paranoid?

[Borat Sagyidev]

The state is now God.

if you weren't in a public state funded university that wouldn't be as despicable.

Conservative mindset is killing this country.
Some of you will wonder why China will overtake our economy this decade when in reality it's because conservatives have brought these two viewpoints mainstream
1) Keeping up with the Joneses is more important than keeping up society
2) Science and intellectual argument is liberal propaganda

[mavs>spurs]

That doesn't even make sense.

[ChumpDumper]

That doesn't even make sense.lol UTA

[TubThumper]

lol UTA

What room does a UTSA graduate have to laugh?

[ElNono]

I thought Obama was a liar, tbh...

[ElNono]

I understand what Obama was trying to say, but my god, he worded it poorly and Blake is right about him wanting that one back.

He's lucky there won't be an evil conspiracy involving batman to demonize him.

No doubt, plus the GOP might not say it but they're all about government expansion all the same.

[Borat Sagyidev]

We should get rid of all of these public universities so you guys can rid yourself of filthy government. None of you need help.

[ChumpDumper]

What room does a UTSA graduate have to laugh?I'm not whining about the state while attending a state school.

Plenty of room.

Yes, I'm sure.

[TubThumper]

I'm not whining about the state while attending a state school.

Plenty of room.

Yes, I'm sure.

But you didn't laugh at that, you laughter at UTA. What room does a UTSA graduate have to laugh at UTA?

[ChumpDumper]

But you didn't laugh at that, you laughter at UTA. What room does a UTSA graduate have to laugh at UTA?I laughed at his attending UTA, and by extension UTA for producing such a fine intellect.

It works on a couple of levels tbh. I can't expect a rather simple regular poster using a troll to understand.

I have much room to laugh. Yes, I'm sure. No, I don't need to explain it further to you.

[TubThumper]

And you're proof of what UTSA is capable of producing?

I don't think you should be laughing so much.

[ChumpDumper]

And you're proof of what UTSA is capable of producing?There are likely better examples, but in terms of basic understanding and realizing Alex Jones is full of shit, I'd put myself up against m>s any day.


I don't think you should be laughing so much.You're the one who dedicated a troll to me and follows me around exclusively using that name. That makes me laugh more. Don't get upset.

[TubThumper]

Put yourself up against him at what, sword fighting with your cocks? I'd have to agree with the experience advantage.

Lol pulling the "you're just upset."

[ChumpDumper]

Put yourself up against him at what, sword fighting with your cocks? I'd have to agree with the experience advantage.

Lol pulling the "you're just upset."Now you're upset because I beat you to it.

Getting you to break your schtick was enough though tbh.

lol whatever school you claim to have attended

[TubThumper]

What shtick have I broken?

[ChumpDumper]

What shtick have I broken?Too late.

[TubThumper]

That doesn't answer the question.

So basically, no shtick was broken.

[ChumpDumper]

That doesn't answer the question.

So basically, no shtick was broken.That wasn't what broke it.

You can't unbreak it now.

lol basically

[TubThumper]

Can you tell us what shtick was broken, or will you continue to deflect?

Basement dwellers got all day.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

We should get rid of all of these public universities so you guys can rid yourself of filthy government. None of you need help.
The scary thing is there are millions of tea baggers in this country who think we should completely privatize education.

[ChumpDumper]

Can you tell us what shtick was broken, or will you continue to deflect?

Basement dwellers got all day.You don't even know your own schtick?

I guess you'll need all day.

[TubThumper]

Lol more deflection.

[ChumpDumper]

Lol more deflection.lol troll honestly ignorant of his own schtick

[TubThumper]

Did UTSA teach you how to swaggerjack stretches lol shtick?

[mavs>spurs]

chump anything he's said sounds exactly like something you'd write.

even you sometimes break your rhetorical format to make certain types of comments. you use the lol one a lot too

[ChumpDumper]

chump anything he's said sounds exactly like something you'd write.

even you sometimes break your rhetorical format to make certain types of comments. you use the lol one a lot toolol trying to help a troll

[ChumpDumper]

Did UTSA teach you how to swaggerjack stretches lol shtick?No, but...

lol board history

lol slowly outing yourself

[mavs>spurs]

lol trying to help a troll

only the state, could make you this great!

[ChumpDumper]

only the state, could make you this great!Alex Jones didn't make you stupid, but he sure brought it out in you.

[mavs>spurs]

not nearly as catchy tbh.

uta: 1

utsa: 0

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I wonder how Alex Jones is gonna find a way to fear monger off of what Bachmann said about the Muslim brotherhood infiltrating.

[ChumpDumper]

not nearly as catchy tbh.More truthful though, especially since yours was inspired by Alex Jones.

[mavs>spurs]

more alex jones knobslobbing, it's the only ammo you've ever got.

[ChumpDumper]

I wonder how Alex Jones is gonna find a way to fear monger off of what Bachmann said about the Muslim brotherhood infiltrating.He'll conflate them with Al Qaeda and say we created and funded them; they are all government operatives.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

so you admit it is ammo :lol

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

He'll conflate them with Al Qaeda and say we created and funded them; they are all government operatives.
Obama is gonna stage an attack and frame Hilary's adviser!

[ChumpDumper]

more alex jones knobslobbing, it's the only ammo you've ever got.No one needs anything else tbh. It's easy to use and completely effective. You posted his video earlier today and immediately ran away from it.

You pimp him and are ashamed of him at the same time.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Hilary's adviser is a high ranking Illuminati member who has murdered thousands in Chechnya!

[mavs>spurs]

it lost effectiveness before its inception. there's nothing funny or clever about going around saying the same things over and over. i guess anything is better than constant use of your utsa rhetorical devices.

[mavs>spurs]

liberals, unite!

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Hilary's adviser was spawned by anti-Christian Satanists on the eve of Y2K!

[ChumpDumper]

it lost effectiveness before its inception.Nah, you run from even the slightest challenge to your God, Alex Jones.

Of course I'll keep challenging your worship of that conman if you keep pussing out.

[ChumpDumper]

Initiate persecution complex defense!

[mavs>spurs]

quote editing, regurgitated alex jones smack, and rhetorical devices. you're not the sharpest guy but I give you a C+ for persistence.

me being one of 20 million weekly listeners of a radio show in no way embarasses me or owns me at all. i'm not running from anything. i think the guy makes some good points. one of which was the topic of this thread, Obama's betrayal of the american way which you so vigorously defend.

The state is not my God.

[ChumpDumper]

quote editing, regurgitated alex jones smack, and rhetorical devices. you're not the sharpest guy but I give you a C+ for persistence.

me being one of 20 million weekly listeners of a radio show in no way embarasses me or owns me at all. i'm not running from anything. i think the guy makes some good points. one of which was the topic of this thread, Obama's betrayal of the american way which you so vigorously defend.

The state is not my God.Then why did you run away from the video you posted in the shooting thread?

I'll ask you what I asked there: Do you believe, as Alex Jones claims, that the Aurora shooting was a government psyop?

[mavs>spurs]

i'm not yet decided, it just happened. i think it's fucking crazy that on the eve of this UN gun treaty not getting quite enough support to pass in the senate, THIS happens. it's really convenient and makes you think. it's not like they've never used mind control and found a patsy before.

"I'm just a patsy!!"

-lee harvey oswald

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

timeout

Alex Jones said the Aurora shooting was the government?


:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[ChumpDumper]

i'm not yet decided, it just happened. i think it's fucking crazy that on the eve of this UN gun treaty not getting quite enough support to pass in the senate, THIS happens. it's really convenient and makes you think. it's not like they've never used mind control and found a patsy before.

"I'm just a patsy!!"

-lee harvey oswaldSo you do think that Oswald was patsy who had his mind controlled by someone else?

[mavs>spurs]

yep, i dont believe oswald was a lone shooter

[ChumpDumper]

yep, i dont believe oswald was a lone shooterThat wasn't the question.

Do you believe Oswald was a patsy whose mind was controlled by someone else?