When seconds count...

[Yonivore]

...the Police are minutes away.

Gun carrying man ends stabbing spree at Salt Lake grocery store (http://www.abc4.com/content/about_4/bios/story/conceal-and-carry-stabbing-salt-lake-city-smiths/NDNrL1gxeE2rsRhrWCM9dQ.cspx)

If you have a family and don't have a CHL, you don't love them enough to believe it's your responsibility to protect them and yourself.

Just sayin'

[AussieFanKurt]

Fucking hell, what is wrong with some people?

And being able to legally conceal a gun can be just as bad as it can be good. Goes both ways, son

[Yonivore]

Fucking hell, what is wrong with some people?
Evil exists.


And being able to legally conceal a gun can be just as bad as it can be good. Goes both ways, son
How so?

[boutons_deux]

...the Police are minutes away.

Gun carrying man ends stabbing spree at Salt Lake grocery store (http://www.abc4.com/content/about_4/bios/story/conceal-and-carry-stabbing-salt-lake-city-smiths/NDNrL1gxeE2rsRhrWCM9dQ.cspx)

If you have a family and don't have a CHL, you don't love them enough to believe it's your responsibility to protect them and yourself.

Just sayin'

How many 100Ms of visits in a grocery store are totally without violence?

Driving to/from the grocery store is MUCH more risky.

The guns/ammo industry's lapdog/surrogate NRA loves to scare bubbas into spending $100Ms on the extremely small chance of needing one.

[Winehole23]

fear and smear is Yoni's whole game.

[AussieFanKurt]

How so?

Are you serious? Someone could conceal a gun and use it to kill people too?

[AussieFanKurt]

How many 100Ms of visits in a grocery store are totally without violence?

Driving to/from the grocery store is MUCH more risky.

The guns/ammo industry's lapdog/surrogate NRA loves to scare bubbas into spending $100Ms on the extremely small chance of needing one.

Very good point

[Yonivore]

Are you serious? Someone could conceal a gun and use it to kill people too?
They already do so, I'd rather be an opponent than a target.

[Clipper Nation]

Are you serious? Someone could conceal a gun and use it to kill people too?

Which is illegal, and can be dealt with in the criminal justice system....

[Clipper Nation]

The guns/ammo industry's lapdog/surrogate NRA loves to scare bubbas into spending $100Ms on the extremely small chance of needing one.

While helping pass gun control legislation at the same time, tbh....

[Yonivore]

Very good point
How many millions of miles are driven without incident? Yet, we buckle our seat belts, drive defensively, and buy vehicles with advanced safety features.

Arming yourself is no different. It's not the times you don't need a gun that matter and boutons statistics are meaningless to victims of gun violence whose government refuses to give them the means to defend themselves against people who ignore the law.

[vy65]

I am the god of fuck, i am the god of fuck
virgins sold in quantity, herded by heredity
red-neck-burn-out-mid-west-mind, "who said date rape isn't kind?"
porno-nation, evaluation
what's this, "time for segregation"
libido, libido fascination, too much oral defication
white trash get down on your knees, time for cake and sodomy
time for cake and sodomy
(I am the god of fuck, i am the god of fuck)
vcr's and vasoline, tv-fucked by plastic queens
cash in hand and dick on screen, who said god was ever clean?
bible-belt 'round anglo-waste, putting sinners in their place
yeah, right, great if you're so good explain the shit stains on your face
white trash get down on your knees, time for cake and sodomy
time for cake and sodomy

[AussieFanKurt]

How many millions of miles are driven without incident? Yet, we buckle our seat belts, drive defensively, and buy vehicles with advanced safety features.

Arming yourself is no different. It's not the times you don't need a gun that matter and boutons statistics are meaningless to victims of gun violence whose government refuses to give them the means to defend themselves against people who ignore the law.

I don't know anyone who owns a gun here. Not one friend, not one family. No one. No one has ever even been in a fight let alone come across harm. I don't know if we just live in a less violent country or the fact you can easily have guns makes violence worse.. who knows. All I know is that I've lived a couple decades without any trouble and I've never fired a gun. I also live in a capital city

[Yonivore]

Which is illegal, and can be dealt with in the criminal justice system....
Explain that to the dead and injured. "Oh, don't worry, we have laws to deal with the shooter."

We know of at least three people, in that theater that night, who showed extreme courage by sacrificing themselves to save someone they loved. Can you imagine if there had been three concealed handgun licensees in the theater, trained in active shooter scenarios, with a similar level of courage?

I can. I can imagine a lot fewer than 13 dead and 58 injured.

[xrayzebra]

Butons:
The guns/ammo industry's lapdog/surrogate NRA loves to scare bubbas into spending $100Ms on the extremely small chance of needing one.

Except when you do.

[Yonivore]

I don't know anyone who owns a gun here. Not one friend, not one family. No one. No one has ever even been in a fight let alone come across harm. I don't know if we just live in a less violent country or the fact you can easily have guns makes violence worse.. who knows. All I know is that I've lived a couple decades without any trouble and I've never fired a gun. I also live in a capital city
I'm assuming you're in Australia, is that correct?

[coyotes_geek]

I am the god of fuck, i am the god of fuck
virgins sold in quantity, herded by heredity
red-neck-burn-out-mid-west-mind, "who said date rape isn't kind?"
porno-nation, evaluation
what's this, "time for segregation"
libido, libido fascination, too much oral defication
white trash get down on your knees, time for cake and sodomy
time for cake and sodomy
(I am the god of fuck, i am the god of fuck)
vcr's and vasoline, tv-fucked by plastic queens
cash in hand and dick on screen, who said god was ever clean?
bible-belt 'round anglo-waste, putting sinners in their place
yeah, right, great if you're so good explain the shit stains on your face
white trash get down on your knees, time for cake and sodomy
time for cake and sodomy

Britney Spears?

[AussieFanKurt]

I'm assuming you're in Australia, is that correct?

Yeah, very few gun deaths and different gun legislation so it's kind of like comparing apples with oranges by one token. I'm just saying it isn't necessary to have a firearm to stay safe

[Yonivore]

Australia saw its violent crime rates soar after its 1996 Port Arthur gun -control measures banned most firearms. Violent crime rates averaged 32% higher in the six years after the law was passed (from 1997 to 2002) than they did the year before the law went into effect. Armed robbery rates increased 74%. Australia's violent crime rate is also now double America's.
These statistics appear in several unsourced articles I found and I had heard this before. If you know of someplace to access this data from the Australian government, I'd be willing to to look at that

But, if true, gun control appears to drive up violence (most of the articles point to similar trends in other countries that have enacted gun control laws).

Personally, I don't much think the victims of violence care if it is with a gun or a lead pipe that someone tries to take their life.

[vy65]

Sarah McLachlan tbh

[cantthinkofanything]

How many 100Ms of visits in a grocery store are totally without violence?

Driving to/from the grocery store is MUCH more risky.

The guns/ammo industry's lapdog/surrogate NRA loves to scare bubbas into spending $100Ms on the extremely small chance of needing one.

How many stabbings, break ins, home invasions, rapes, assults, car jackings etc. DON'T happen because someone may have a gun?

[boutons_deux]

While helping pass gun control legislation at the same time, tbh....

the NRA helps "pass gun control" :lol

You fucktard right-wingers are good for nothing but laughs

[boutons_deux]

How many stabbings, break ins, home invasions, rapes, assults, car jackings etc. DON'T happen because someone may have a gun?

you tell me.

[Yonivore]

you tell me.
See for yourself:

Guns and Self Defense (http://www.cato.org/guns-and-self-defense/)

It's interactive so, have fun!

[cantthinkofanything]

you tell me.

I see Yoni provided some info. But I'm sure the number is grossly understated as it doesn't take into account all of the non-incidents due to a would be perp not wanting to take a chance.

[TeyshaBlue]

See for yourself:

Guns and Self Defense (http://www.cato.org/guns-and-self-defense/)

It's interactive so, have fun!

That link is not the enlightened progressive RSS feed. Verboten!:nope

[ElNono]

Sarah McLachlan tbh

Was it you pointing out the other day that Japan has the lowest gun violence rate while having perhaps the most stringent gun control regulations?

[Yonivore]

I see Yoni provided some info. But I'm sure the number is grossly understated as it doesn't take into account all of the non-incidents due to a would be perp not wanting to take a chance.
I agree but, the incidents of self-defense don't have to be proportional to the incidents of criminal gun violence.

Using the tried and true Democrat maxim, "If it saves just one life, it's worth it," Concealed Carry Laws are worth it.

[cantthinkofanything]

I agree but, the incidents of self-defense don't have to be proportional to the incidents of criminal gun violence.

Using the tried and true Democrat maxim, "If it saves just one life, it's worth it," Concealed Carry Laws are worth it.

agreed

[Yonivore]

Yeah, let's be like Japan!

Japan: Gun Control and People Control (http://www.davekopel.com/2A/Foreign/Japan-Gun-Control-and-People-Control.htm)

[vy65]

Was it you pointing out the other day that Japan has the lowest gun violence rate while having perhaps the most stringent gun control regulations?

I read that the Aurora massacre's death count exceeded the total amount of gun-related deaths in Japan.

But yeah, Japan has some crazy stringent gun control laws and virtually no gun-related deaths.

[vy65]

Yeah, let's be like Japan!

Japan: Gun Control and People Control (http://www.davekopel.com/2A/Foreign/Japan-Gun-Control-and-People-Control.htm)

lol American Rifleman
lol Mind Control

[Blake]

Explain that to the dead and injured. "Oh, don't worry, we have laws to deal with the shooter."

We know of at least three people, in that theater that night, who showed extreme courage by sacrificing themselves to save someone they loved. Can you imagine if there had been three concealed handgun licensees in the theater, trained in active shooter scenarios, with a similar level of courage?

I can. I can imagine a lot fewer than 13 dead and 58 injured.

We need to arm teenagers that go to movie theaters!

[Yonivore]

lol American Rifleman
lol Mind Control
The article actually agrees with your statement,


But yeah, Japan has some crazy stringent gun control laws and virtually no gun-related deaths.
It basically says, sure, you can have Japan's low crime rate if you're willing to settle for a police state or, in your words, "crazy stringent gun control laws."

[vy65]

Gun banners might rejoice at a society where the police keep such a sharp eye on citizens' guns. But the price is that the police keep an eye on everything.

Policemen are apt to tell people reading sexually-oriented magazines to read something more worthwhile. Japan's major official year-end police report includes statistics like "Background and Motives for Girls' Sexual Misconduct." In 1985, the police determined that 37.4% of the girls had been seduced, and the rest had had sex "voluntarily." For the volunteers, 19.6% acted "out of curiosity", while for 18.1%, the motive was "liked particular boy." The year-end police report also includes sections on labor demands, and on anti-nuclear or anti-military demonstrations.

lol if we adopt japanese gun control regulations, they'll come for my porno stash next!!!

[vy65]

The article actually agrees with your statement

But not the most important part -- the conclusion


It basically says, sure, you can have Japan's low crime rate if you're willing to settle for a police state or, in your words, "crazy stringent gun control laws."

A police state where they're a-comin' for my porns!!!

God Bless the USA!

[ElNono]

I doubt the US could do what Japan is doing without some Constitutional amendment, thus the point is probably moot as far as "becoming Japan" when it comes to gun-control.

But it does provide a kick in the teeth to the narrative that gun control only increases defenseless victims and thus, increased crime rates.

[Yonivore]

But not the most important part -- the conclusion
No, even the conclusion. I read the article to say Japan's gun control laws have resulted in a lower, near non-existent, incidence of gun violence.

Tell me, do you believe Americans would allow the types of gun control measures now in place in Japan?


A police state where they're a-comin' for my porns!!!

God Bless the USA!
Actually, Japan has a high incidence of sexual assault on women and extremely liberal laws on access to and the display of pornography. There are sexually explicit displays everywhere and Japan is grappling (pun intended) with groping on their public transportation and in public areas.

So, I'm not sure to what you're referring or to what you believe that excerpt is referring.

[ChumpDumper]

Actually, Japan has a high incidence of sexual assault on womenHow high compared to the US?

[Yonivore]

I doubt the US could do what Japan is doing without some Constitutional amendment, thus the point is probably moot as far as "becoming Japan" when it comes to gun-control.

But it does provide a kick in the teeth to the narrative that gun control only increases defenseless victims and thus, increased crime rates.
Actually, all it says is, a police state will result in a lower incidence of crime by a pacified population. Their gangs are still murdering each other at a pretty good clip. They're just more discriminating than our gangs.

Also, if you paid attention to the article, the definitions of homicide in the U.S. and Japan differ, resulting in a larger than realistic disparity.

But, yeah, bottom line is, if you want the police in your business fairly frequently, that's the way to go.

[George Gervin's Afro]

...the Police are minutes away.

Gun carrying man ends stabbing spree at Salt Lake grocery store (http://www.abc4.com/content/about_4/bios/story/conceal-and-carry-stabbing-salt-lake-city-smiths/NDNrL1gxeE2rsRhrWCM9dQ.cspx)

If you have a family and don't have a CHL, you don't love them enough to believe it's your responsibility to protect them and yourself.

Just sayin'

it's ok yoni..no one is trying to take your chl away..

[vy65]

No, even the conclusion. I read the article to say Japan's gun control laws have resulted in a lower, near non-existent, incidence of gun violence.

Tell me, do you believe Americans would allow the types of gun control measures now in place in Japan?

Do you not read the shit you post?
lol thinking the American Rifleman would advocate stringent gun control

[QUOTE]Theoretically, America could adopt a gun ban like Japan's. But that ban would be completely alien to our society, which for over 300 years has had the world's freest, most uncontrolled gun culture. Japan's gun laws are part of an authoritarian philosophy of government that is fundamentally at odds with America's traditions of liberty. Such laws have no place in our
country.

As NoNo said, the chances of these restrictions "making it" here in the US are slim to none.


Actually, Japan has a high incidence of sexual assault on women and extremely liberal laws on access to and the display of pornography. There are sexually explicit displays everywhere and Japan is grappling (pun intended) with groping on their public transportation and in public areas.

So, I'm not sure to what you're referring or to what you believe that excerpt is referring.

It's a police state full of rape!!!

[vy65]

If only those poor Japanese women could shoot those gropers on the subway ...

[ElNono]

Also, if you paid attention to the article, the definitions of homicide in the U.S. and Japan differ, resulting in a larger than realistic disparity.

:lol cherry picking homicides.

An armed robbery where nobody is killed is still a gun-related crime.

But even focusing on deaths, the US is way up there (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate) when it comes to firearm-related death rate to pin it on a technicality.

[FromWayDowntown]

I'm still fascinated by the idea that having multiple shooters in a darkened and chaotic movie theater would be a preferable scenario that is certain to result in diminished casualties.

[Winehole23]

yy6oBMpzdH8&feature=related

[George Gervin's Afro]

I'm still fascinated by the idea that having multiple shooters in a darkened and chaotic movie theater would be a preferable scenario that is certain to result in diminished casualties.

why do you hate guns?

[ChumpDumper]

Who has called for an end to concealed carry?

Strawman thread.

[Yonivore]

it's ok yoni..no one is trying to take your chl away..
They can have my gun when they pry... ah, you know the rest.

[Yonivore]

Do you not read the shit you post?
lol thinking the American Rifleman would advocate stringent gun control
Perhaps you misunderstood. I never said the article was advocating Japan's gun control but, they did say the measures worked -- at a price to liberty.

No, I read the article and I know they said -- and I agree -- America wouldn't stand for such restrictive gun policies.


As NoNo said, the chances of these restrictions "making it" here in the US are slim to none.
Gratefully, I agree.


It's a police state full of rape!!!
It's a society full of misogynists that treat women deplorably.

[Yonivore]

If only those poor Japanese women could shoot those gropers on the subway ...
Who's advocating that? I only brought up the issue in response to your comment about porn.

[ChumpDumper]

Yeah, you brought up a completely unsubstantiated claim apparently gleaned from your extensive knowledge of fetish porn.

[Yonivore]

I'm still fascinated by the idea that having multiple shooters in a darkened and chaotic movie theater would be a preferable scenario that is certain to result in diminished casualties.
Perhaps you should take an active shooter course.

Only one of the shooters is randomly picking targets that are fleeing, usually, away from him. The other three would be firing at a single target, increasingly alone as victims fall or run away from him.

What are the odds the shooter, will be able to identify, isolate, and eliminate all of the threats that are now intending to take him out?

[ChumpDumper]

Perhaps you should take an active shooter course.

Only one of the shooters is randomly picking targets that are fleeing, usually, away from him. The other three would be firing at a single target, increasingly alone as victims fall or run away from him.

What are the odds the shooter, will be able to identify, isolate, and eliminate all of the threats that are now intending to take him out?Now yoni is having a hero fantasy.

Lot of that going around.

[clambake]

Now yoni is having a hero fantasy.

Lot of that going around.

yep, playin it out in his head.

[vy65]

I'd like to know what makes Japanese society misogynistic?

[FromWayDowntown]

Perhaps you should take an active shooter course.

Only one of the shooters is randomly picking targets that are fleeing, usually, away from him. The other three would be firing at a single target, increasingly alone as victims fall or run away from him.

What are the odds the shooter, will be able to identify, isolate, and eliminate all of the threats that are now intending to take him out?

What are the odds that your intervenors won't mistake a fellow good samaritan for a cohort of the original shooter? You're not likely dealing with shooters who are expertly skilled or who've been highly trained to recognize and eliminate threats. You're dealing with scared people in a very scary situation.

Even assuming perfect recognition in that circumstance, remember, it's a dark theater filled with some sort of irritating agent; the movie is still running at full volume and only seconds have elapsed since this situation has arisen. People are crammed into narrow rows and have limited escape routes available to them. Would any reasonable person not making a wholly political argument believe that the bystanders in that circumstance aren't further endangered by cross-fire?

[clambake]

What are the odds that your intervenors won't mistake a fellow good samaritan for a cohort of the original shooter? You're not likely dealing with shooters who are expertly skilled or who've been highly trained to recognize and eliminate threats. You're dealing with scared people in a very scary situation.

Even assuming perfect recognition in that circumstance, remember, it's a dark theater filled with some sort of irritating agent; the movie is still running at full volume and only seconds have elapsed since this situation has arisen. People are crammed into narrow rows and have limited escape routes available to them. Would any reasonable person not making a wholly political argument believe that the bystanders in that circumstance aren't further endangered by cross-fire?

some must die so that some can live.

[Yonivore]

2007 Colorado YWAM and New Life shootings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Colorado_YWAM_and_New_Life_shootings)

On Sunday, December 9, 2007, at about 1 p.m. Murray, armed with a semi-automatic rifle and two pistols, entered the foyer of the New Life Church in Colorado Springs and fatally shot two and wounded three others before himself being shot and wounded by Jeanne Assam, a former sworn Colorado police officer and a church member acting as security. Murray then took his own life.

At about 1 p.m. MST (20:00 UTC), 30 minutes after the 11 a.m. service had ended at New Life Church, Murray opened fire in the church parking lot shooting the Works family and Judy Purcell, 40. Murray then entered the building's main foyer where he shot Larry Bourbonnais, 59, hitting him in the forearm. At this point, Assam opened fire on Murray with her personally owned concealed weapon. Police say that after suffering multiple hits from Assam's gun, Murray fatally shot himself.

Assam later stated that "God guided me and protected me [and I] did not think for a minute to run away."

The pastor of the church stated that Assam shot Murray before he entered 50 feet (15 m) inside the building, after she encountered him in the hallway, and that Assam probably saved "over 100 lives."

Following the shooting spree, Colorado Springs Police Department officers searched the church campus looking for suspicious devices. Colorado governor Bill Ritter ordered state authorities to help investigate. The FBI and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives also came to the site to assist.[/quote]

[vy65]

Clearly that situation is analogous ...

[clambake]

empty hallway compared to packed theater. lol

[ChumpDumper]

Wow, a police woman working security for a church shot a guy in that church while she was working security.

[Spurminator]

Yoni has Smith & Wesson stock.

[Yonivore]

What are the odds that your intervenors won't mistake a fellow good samaritan for a cohort of the original shooter? You're not likely dealing with shooters who are expertly skilled or who've been highly trained to recognize and eliminate threats. You're dealing with scared people in a very scary situation.
In the case of the New Life Shootings, a courageous woman with a CHL eliminated a threat.


Even assuming perfect recognition in that circumstance, remember, it's a dark theater filled with some sort of irritating agent; the movie is still running at full volume and only seconds have elapsed since this situation has arisen. People are crammed into narrow rows and have limited escape routes available to them. Would any reasonable person not making a wholly political argument believe that the bystanders in that circumstance aren't further endangered by cross-fire?
CHL Active Shooter training will teach you how to assess a fairly chaotic scene rapidly.

Look, I don't know how I would have reacted-- even if the theater would have allowed concealed weapons -- I'm merely suggesting, if there was a Jeanne Assam in the crowd and she had her weapon on her, there's a chance the death toll wouldn't have reached 13 with almost 60 injured.

No one is telling you to get a CHL and protect the world. In fact, with your views, I'm not sure you'd be of use with a gun. Most CHL licensees probably wouldn't do the courageous thing in the same situation but, it would only take one Jeanne Assam to change the outcome.

[clambake]

new life shootings comparison. lol

[Yonivore]

Clearly that situation is analogous ...
It is. Clearly.

[ChumpDumper]

The guard hailed as a hero after the December 2007 shooting at New Life Church says the church indicated she was not welcome there after she informed church officials that she is gay.http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_17486675

:lol Cool story, yoni.

[vy65]

:lol

[clambake]

lol calling fwdt useless because of his views.

[leemajors]

In the case of the New Life Shootings, a courageous woman with a CHL eliminated a threat.


CHL Active Shooter training will teach you how to assess a fairly chaotic scene rapidly.

Look, I don't know how I would have reacted-- even if the theater would have allowed concealed weapons -- I'm merely suggesting, if there was a Jeanne Assam in the crowd and she had her weapon on her, there's a chance the death toll wouldn't have reached 13 with almost 60 injured.

No one is telling you to get a CHL and protect the world. In fact, with your views, I'm not sure you'd be of use with a gun. Most CHL licensees probably wouldn't do the courageous thing in the same situation but, it would only take one Jeanne Assam to change the outcome.

You did, however, tell people they don't love their families enough if they don't have a CHL and carry. It was fucking stupid.

[ChumpDumper]

In the case of the New Life Shootings, a courageous woman with a CHL eliminated a threat.


CHL Active Shooter training will teach you how to assess a fairly chaotic scene rapidly.

Look, I don't know how I would have reacted-- even if the theater would have allowed concealed weapons -- I'm merely suggesting, if there was a Jeanne Assam in the crowd and she had her weapon on her, there's a chance the death toll wouldn't have reached 13 with almost 60 injured.

No one is telling you to get a CHL and protect the world. In fact, with your views, I'm not sure you'd be of use with a gun. Most CHL licensees probably wouldn't do the courageous thing in the same situation but, it would only take one Jeanne Assam to change the outcome.I am all for armed police volunteering to protect every movie screening for free.

[FromWayDowntown]

Look, I don't know how I would have reacted-- even if the theater would have allowed concealed weapons -- I'm merely suggesting, if there was a Jeanne Assam in the crowd and she had her weapon on her, there's a chance the death toll wouldn't have reached 13 with almost 60 injured.

Can you really dispute that there's a substantial chance that the death toll would have exceeded 13 and the total casualties would have been greater as well?


No one is telling you to get a CHL and protect the world. In fact, with your views, I'm not sure you'd be of use with a gun. Most CHL licensees probably wouldn't do the courageous thing in the same situation but, it would only take one Jeanne Assam to change the outcome.

There's undoubtedly a direct connection between one's political views and his or her courage.

[Yonivore]

You did, however, tell people they don't love their families enough if they don't have a CHL and carry. It was fucking stupid.
Since we're all about context, this is precisely what I said:


"If you have a family and don't have a CHL, you don't love them enough to believe it's your responsibility to protect them and yourself."
And, yeah, I stand by that statement. I take my family's security seriously. Whether or not I'm successful won't be because I wasn't prepared.

[cantthinkofanything]

Can you really dispute that there's a substantial chance that the death toll would have exceeded 13 and the total casualties would have been greater as well?



There's undoubtedly a direct connection between one's political views and his or her courage.

It's all conjecture. But also remember that the shooter's gun supposedly jammed. The death toll could have been much higher. If I was in a situation where someone had had three guns with 100 rounds that he was going to let off, I'd take my chances with a few people with handguns returning fire.

[Yonivore]

Can you really dispute that there's a substantial chance that the death toll would have exceeded 13 and the total casualties would have been greater as well?
I think I just did. And, there are other examples besides Ms. Assam.


There's undoubtedly a direct connection between one's political views and his or her courage.
Really? I have no idea of the political leaning of any of the recipients of the Congressional Medal of Honor yet, to a person, they exhibited the kind of courage it would take to act in such a situation.

Are you suggesting such courage doesn't exist in the general population? That great acts of courage and selflessness only occur on the battlefield?

[clambake]

you don't love them enough. lol

clearly, yoni is disturbed. perhaps mentally.

[FromWayDowntown]

Recalling again why the call of my original question was phrased the way it was.

[Yonivore]

Another thing not being considered.

How would the gunman have responded if he started taking return fire?

The place was chaotic and smoky for him, as well. Perhaps he would have fled out the exit door or, as in the case of the church shooting, killed himself.

He's human, too. With the same fright/flight mechanisms as the rest of us.

[ChumpDumper]

Another thing not being considered.

How would the gunman have responded if he started taking return fire?

The place was chaotic and smoky for him, as well. Perhaps he would have fled out the exit door or, as in the case of the church shooting, killed himself.

He's human, too. With the same fright/flight mechanisms as the rest of us.What if he was a courageous Republican?

He would have killed everyone even if all his guns had jammed, right?

[ElNono]

Didn't the guy had full body armor too, including throat, legs, etc?

[Blake]

Can you imagine if there had been three concealed handgun licensees in the theater, trained in active shooter scenarios, with a similar level of courage?

I can. I can imagine a lot fewer than 13 dead and 58 injured.

can you imagine if there had been 13 concealed hand gun heroes in that dark theater?

I can.

Bad guy #1 comes in, shoots a few people.

Hero A jumps up, shoots in direction of bad guy. Citizen A jumps up to run away at wrong instant, ends up hit by bullet of gun from Hero A.

Hero B jumps up, thinks hero A is bad guy #2 because he shot a citizen, shoots in direction of Hero A, only to hit Citizen B who has also jumped up to run away at the wrong instant.

Hero C jumps up....

repeat scenario until Hero M is the last hero alive.

Oh, and bad guy #1 is still alive.

[Yonivore]

can you imagine if there had been 13 concealed hand gun heroes in that dark theater?

I can.

Bad guy comes in, shoots a few people.

Hero A jumps up, shoots in direction of bad guy. Citizen A jumps up to run away at wrong instant, ends up hit by bullet of gun from Hero A.

Hero B jumps up, thinks hero A is bad guy #2 because he shot a citizen, shoots in direction of Hero A, only to hit Citizen B who has also jumped up to run away at the wrong instant.

Hero C jumps up....

repeat scenario until Hero M is the last hero alive.
Nice imagination. Any evidence to back that up?

[Blake]

Nice imagination. Any evidence to back that up?

Same evidence that you have.

[ChumpDumper]

Nice imagination. Any evidence to back that up?That's precisely what we said to you.

You didn't back anything up.

[ElNono]

What if he was a courageous Republican?

He would have killed everyone even if all his guns had jammed, right?

Worked for Reag... I mean, John Wayne... if only the Lone Ranger would've been attending... (faps at the thought)

[Yonivore]

Interesting article in Slate -- not exactly a conservative bastion of gun rights:

Going Postal, Pre-Pistol (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2012/07/aurora_shooting_how_did_people_commit_mass_murder_ before_automatic_weapons_.html)

How did mass murderers operate before the advent of modern weapons?


How did people commit mass murder before the advent of automatic weapons?

Often with fire.

...

In 1932, Julian Marcelino, a Filipino immigrant of relatively small stature, managed to kill six and wound 15 on a Seattle street using only a pair of blades.

...

Guns aren’t even the most lethal mass murder weapon. According to data compiled by Grant Duwe of the Minnesota Department of Corrections, guns killed an average of 4.92 victims per mass murder in the United States during the 20th century, just edging out knives, blunt objects, and bare hands, which killed 4.52 people per incident. Fire killed 6.82 people per mass murder, while explosives far outpaced the other options at 20.82. Of the 25 deadliest mass murders in the 20th century, only 52 percent involved guns.

[vy65]

ok, and?

[z0sa]

Although I personally find myself agreeing with the sentiment that a few people legally carrying might have changed, or even had a small chance of averting this tragedy, the fact is, it's a crowded, dark, and loud movie theater with a bunch of people wearing costumes. You are not going to positively identify the shooter unless you are very close to the action, and I doubt even the hardiest John Wayne wannabe's out there are willing to fire into a large crowd.

Additionally, AR, body armor, gas mask and tear gas > small handguns, FWIW.

[Yonivore]

Same evidence that you have.
What? Jeanne Assam?

Or...

Appalachian School of Law shooting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting)

One active shooter and two concealed carry shooters who managed not to kill each other in terminating the situation.

Perhaps you're just projecting how you would react in such a situation. And, that's okay, I'm not sure how I would, either. I do believe, however, just like Jeanne Assam, there are people willing to walk toward the danger and -- if properly equipped, as she was -- eliminate the threat before there's more carnage.

Imagine if Jeanne Assam hadn't been there or if she weren't armed and the shooter had proceeded into the crowded church.

[ChumpDumper]

http://community.nimanranch.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Paul-pitching-hay-June-2012-web1.jpg

[vy65]

What? Jeanne Assam?

Or...

Appalachian School of Law shooting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting)

One active shooter and two concealed carry shooters who managed not to kill each other in terminating the situation.

Perhaps you're just projecting how you would react in such a situation. And, that's okay, I'm not sure how I would, either. I do believe, however, just like Jeanne Assam, there are people willing to walk toward the danger and -- if properly equipped, as she was -- eliminate the threat before there's more carnage.

Imagine if Jeanne Assam hadn't been there or if she weren't armed and the shooter had proceeded into the crowded church.

Why's this evidence?

[ChumpDumper]

Again, I'm all for armed lesbian policewoman guarding every movie screening in the US for free.

They can't go any further than my church foyer, though. Jesus sez.

You've saved the world again, yoni.

[Yonivore]

Although I personally find myself agreeing with the sentiment that a few people legally carrying might have changed, or even had a small chance of averting this tragedy, the fact is, it's a crowded, dark, and loud movie theater with a bunch of people wearing costumes. You are not going to positively identify the shooter unless you are very close to the action, and I doubt even the hardiest John Wayne wannabe's out there are willing to fire into a large crowd.
Muzzle flashes are very distinctive, even in a crowded, smoky room.


Additionally, AR, body armor, gas mask and tear gas > small handguns, FWIW.
There's a question about the body armor since many of the witnesses were able to describe his shirt as being visible in the middle. It's starting to look like he may have been wearing a non-ballistic ammunition vest, instead.

I don't know if that's been fully determined or not. But, you're right, the other aspects make it more difficult but, doing nothing (or being unable to do anything) made it impossible.

[ChumpDumper]

And the lesbians need muzzle flash training and night vision goggles.

Forgot that.

[z0sa]

Muzzle flashes are very distinctive, even in a crowded, smoky room.

Actually, in a large, tiered and staired room full of people, it's very possible both bodies and structures as well as the various effects/sounds of the movie itself would have impeded a view of the shooter -- unless you were quite close or saw him from a good angle just by chance.

[Yonivore]

TACTICALGEAR SALES RECEIPT FOR JAMES HOLMES (http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/stltoday.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/d/88/d886da6e-d2dd-11e1-a574-0019bb30f31a/500a1767ec2b1.pdf.pdf)

Item #1? A Blackhawk Urban Assault Vest (http://tacticalgear.com/blackhawk-urban-assault-vest).

http://tacticalgear.com/data/default/images/catalog/650/blackhawk-urban-assault-vest-black.jpg

That ain't bullet-proof.

Full tactical gear is extremely difficult to purchase as a private citizen. Maybe he was just in a costume that appeared to make him look like he was in full tactical gear.

[ElNono]

I doubt even the hardiest John Wayne wannabe's out there are willing to fire into a large crowd.

But you're saving lives! You might kill a couple of "collateral" but how many lives you saved?!?!?!?! Well, nobody knows, but it sounds important!

[Yonivore]

Actually, in a large, tiered and staired room full of people, it's very possible both bodies and structures as well as the various effects/sounds of the movie itself would have impeded a view of the shooter -- unless you were quite close or saw him from a good angle just by chance.
Well, sounds wouldn't have impeded a view and being as it was theater seating, everyone in the audience had a better view of the shooter than he had of them.

Look, we can what if all day long. The fact remains, an armed movie-goer or two, carrying concealed weapons, and properly trained, with the courage and frame of mind to act -- could have successfully stopped Holmes' assault.

[Yonivore]

Why's this evidence?
Two examples of CHL carriers that managed to terminate an active shooter without shooting each other or an innocent person.

[Drachen]

Well, sounds wouldn't have impeded a view and being as it was theater seating, everyone in the audience had a better view of the shooter than he had of them.

Look, we can what if all day long. The fact remains, an armed movie-goer or two, carrying concealed weapons, and properly trained, with the courage and frame of mind to act -- could have successfully stopped Holmes' assault.

Let's watch how easy this is

The fact remains, an armed movie-goer or two, carrying concealed weapons, and properly trained, with the courage and frame of mind to act -- could have successfully aided Holmes' assault by killing others.

[Yonivore]

ok, and?
People determined to kill large numbers of people are going to succeed if there's no one present with the means to stop them.

[Yonivore]

Let's watch how easy this is

The fact remains, an armed movie-goer or two, carrying concealed weapons, and properly trained, with the courage and frame of mind to act -- could have successfully aided Holmes' assault by killing others.
Doesn't work at all.

You're statement is simply satisfied with letting Holmes do all the killing unimpeded. And, you should really take the phrase "properly trained" out of your sentence.

[vy65]

Two examples of CHL carriers that managed to terminate an active shooter without shooting each other or an innocent person.

Two wholly irrelevant examples prove nothing.

[vy65]

People determined to kill large numbers of people are going to succeed if there's no one present with the means to stop them.

So there's no point in gun control laws?

[z0sa]

Well, sounds wouldn't have impeded a view and being as it was theater seating, everyone in the audience had a better view of the shooter than he had of them.

By impede, I mean distract in terms of the sounds. Didn't he start the shooting during a scene of the movie with lots of fighting occurring? This absolutely would be a distraction, at least, it would for me, combined with everything else.

As for having a better view to a shot ... that is completely subjective. If you are all the way across the room, even with a clear shot you are going to tell me a smoky, loud room with an action movie in one its battle scenes going on isn't going to distract you in the least? Now imagine a bunch of people in between you and the shooter.


Look, we can what if all day long. The fact remains, an armed movie-goer or two, carrying concealed weapons, and properly trained, with the courage and frame of mind to act -- could have successfully stopped Holmes' assault.

I agree it's possible, just very unlikely. I reiterate that only someone close to the action would have had anything resembling a decent chance.

[Yonivore]

I doubt even the hardiest John Wayne wannabe's out there are willing to fire into a large crowd.
This suggests the shooter was among a crowd of people.

From descriptions, I've read, people were either on the floor between rows of seats or clamoring for the exits -- away from the shooter.

I'm pretty certain the shooter was sufficiently isolated to be targeted.

[vy65]

People determined to kill large numbers of people are going to succeed if there's no one present with the means to stop them.

Where's that in the article? Or is that just your gloss?

[z0sa]

This suggests the shooter was among a crowd of people.

From descriptions, I've read, people were either on the floor between rows of seats or clamoring for the exits -- away from the shooter.

I'm pretty certain the shooter was sufficiently isolated to be targeted.

Wouldn't you be among a crowd of people scrambling around or ducking and bumping past you with reckless abandon?

[ChumpDumper]

yoni just makes up so much shit so he can consider himself a hero.

[ElNono]

People determined to kill large numbers of people are going to succeed if there's no one present with the means to stop them.

In this particular case, they're arguably going to succeed regardless, even if there's somebody present with the means to stop him.

[ElNono]

Wouldn't you be among a crowd of people scrambling around or ducking and bumping past you with reckless abandon?

He would be looking for the clean shot, while the people next to him patiently wait...

[Yonivore]

By impede, I mean distract in terms of the sounds. Didn't he start the shooting during a scene of the movie with lots of fighting occurring? This absolutely would be a distraction, at least, it would for me, combined with everything else.
Agreed. But, I'm not suggesting an armed movie-goer would immediate spring into action.


As for having a better view to a shot ... that is completely subjective. If you are all the way across the room, even with a clear shot you are going to tell me a smoky, loud room with an action movie in one its battle scenes going on isn't going to distract you in the least? Now imagine a bunch of people in between you and the shooter.
It's going to be equally distracting to the shooter. And, again, according to descriptions, the shooter targeted people trying to escape, as they ran for the exits. Perfect time for someone to shoot him.

The more CHL carriers there are, the more likely there's one not all the way across the theater.


I agree it's possible, just very unlikely. I reiterate that only someone close to the action would have had anything resembling a decent chance.
I think it's more likely than you believe. There seems to be this sense the shooter isn't vulnerable to all the same factors you say will hamstring the armed innocents. Sure, he wore a gas mask and sure he had the element of surprise but, as soon as crowded theater goes batshit crazy and starts heading for the closest exit, he no longer has control of the situation...he's just picking random targets and isn't in the least bit capable of identifying or eliminating a threat directed at him.

And, it's better than just letting yourself be massacred.

[Drachen]

Doesn't work at all.

You're statement is simply satisfied with letting Holmes do all the killing unimpeded. And, you should really take the phrase "properly trained" out of your sentence.

Key word here is "could".

I am not satisfied with letting holmes do any killing. I haven't even come down on a side for this. My first instinct is that there is no reason for assault rifles (there isn't) and they should be banned. It isnt the perfect solution, but it helps. However a friend and I have been discussing this on and off and just trying to sift through empiracle evidence to support one way or another. Both of us are on the fence here.

I am really only addressing you because your arguments are so incredibly bad that it is ridiculous.

[ChumpDumper]

He would be looking for the clean shot, while the people next to him patiently wait...They would be calmed by the courage emanating from his convictions.

[Yonivore]

Wouldn't you be among a crowd of people scrambling around or ducking and bumping past you with reckless abandon?
I have no idea. Are they going to be scrambling around or ducking and bumping past me with reckless abandon forever or are they going to eventually get by me?

In the theaters I've been in lately, there are no more than a dozen seats before an aisle break.

[ElNono]

They would be calmed by the courage emanating from his convictions.

They're probably thinking: "Rambo is a fucking pussy, look at this guy!"

[vy65]

:cry yoni, a true american hero :cry

[z0sa]

I think, if a skilled CHLer was on the same side of the theater, close to the row's edge, and immediately saw directly in his vision the initial shots, then yes, it would have been a fairly easy and quick shot. Otherwise, I think little would have changed. If, for example, all the above conditions are true but you (like everyone would be) are confused by the initial shots for a few moments, then you probably don't have the time to draw, aim and fire a clear shot like you would if you had seen the initial attack directly.

It's one of those things where it's basically a 1 in a million chance or worse. Not the type of thing you want to base a strategy or argument around. Could your section of the theater have been cleared quick enough for a shot? Probably. Then again, while you're waiting for a shot, you might just get mowed down.

[Yonivore]

Key word here is "could".

I am not satisfied with letting holmes do any killing. I haven't even come down on a side for this. My first instinct is that there is no reason for assault rifles (there isn't) and they should be banned. It isnt the perfect solution, but it helps. However a friend and I have been discussing this on and off and just trying to sift through empiracle evidence to support one way or another. Both of us are on the fence here.

I am really only addressing you because your arguments are so incredibly bad that it is ridiculous.
How many people were in the theater?

How many people were shot and incapacitated?

How many did that leave Holmes wasn't able to even draw a muzzle on?

Why are arguments bad?

I think its silly to presume an armed civilian with proper training couldn't have successfully ended Holmes rampage before it involved over 70 killed or injured.

[ChumpDumper]

Did you get him with just one shot, yoni?

Or did mingus hit him at the same time?

[ElNono]

It's one of those things where it's basically a 1 in a million chance or worse. Not the type of thing you want to base a strategy or argument around. Could your section of the theater have been cleared quick enough for a shot? Probably. Then again, while you're waiting for a shot, you might just get mowed down.

Not to mention that by the time the theater cleared, the massive damage is already done.

[Yonivore]

I think, if a skilled CHLer was on the same side of the theater, close to the row's edge, and immediately saw directly in his vision the initial shots, then yes, it would have been a fairly easy and quick shot. Otherwise, I think little would have changed. If, for example, all the above conditions are true but you (like everyone would be) are confused by the initial shots for a few moments, then you probably don't have the time to draw, aim and fire a clear shot like you would if you had seen the initial attack directly.
People describe him walking calmly up the aisle shooting those cowering behind the seats.

There was time.


It's one of those things where it's basically a 1 in a million chance or worse. Not the type of thing you want to base a strategy or argument around. Could your section of the theater have been cleared quick enough for a shot? Probably. Then again, while you're waiting for a shot, you might just get mowed down.
Or not. More people weren't shot than were.

[Drachen]

As it turns out (and as really incredibly bad as it is to say this), IF this shit had to happen, this was probably the best possible outcome.

If Yoni "Regan Wayne Christ" vore had been there and taken this guy out... well his apartment would have had an extremely high probability of blowing up.

[cantthinkofanything]

Key word here is "could".

I am not satisfied with letting holmes do any killing. I haven't even come down on a side for this. My first instinct is that there is no reason for assault rifles (there isn't) and they should be banned. It isnt the perfect solution, but it helps. However a friend and I have been discussing this on and off and just trying to sift through empiracle evidence to support one way or another. Both of us are on the fence here.

I am really only addressing you because your arguments are so incredibly bad that it is ridiculous.

I'm not sure the problem is with assault rifles is it? He cold have killed just as many with a couple of high capacity pistols. I've been against any kind of additional gun control period but if something had to be done, I wouldn't be too upset about limiting magazine capacity to 10.

[ElNono]

I think its silly to presume an armed civilian with proper training couldn't have successfully ended Holmes rampage before it involved over 70 killed or injured.

It's just as silly to presume that the situation would've unfolded any different should an armed civilian with proper training attempted to end Holmes rampage.

We're all guessing here, you included.

[ChumpDumper]

As it turns out (and as really incredibly bad as it is to say this), IF this shit had to happen, this was probably the best possible outcome.

If Yoni "Regan Wayne Christ" vore had been there and taken this guy out... well his apartment would have had an extremely high probability of blowing up.Holmes would have confessed the booby traps to yoni with his dying breath after being shot in both eyes by him and mingus after that Navy SEAL shined a flashlight in his face.

[cantthinkofanything]

People describe him walking calmly up the aisle shooting those cowering behind the seats.


At the very least, if someone had a CC, they would have at least had a better chance at protecting themselves.

[ElNono]

The whole thing is moot though... nobody is taking guns away from anybody...

[Drachen]

I'm not sure the problem is with assault rifles is it? He cold have killed just as many with a couple of high capacity pistols. I've been against any kind of additional gun control period but if something had to be done, I wouldn't be too upset about limiting magazine capacity to 10.

Yeah, that is why I had my first instinct, but because I don't have to make a quick decision (no fight or flight), I can engage my prefrontal cortex and try to figure it out. A 10 shot clip and NO modification hardware sounds good, but we shall see.

edit: the sarcasm wasn't directed at you (or anyone in particular).

[vy65]

It's just as silly to presume that the situation would've unfolded any different should an armed civilian with proper training attempted to end Holmes rampage.

We're all guessing here, you included.

But it'd happen just like the movies ...

[Yonivore]

Here's an instructive video for you z0sa and, no it doesn't correlate to the Aurora shooting. I merely suggest it shows a CHL carrier can act quickly, catch a shooter off guard, and terminate a situation -- even at 71 years of age.


Mm9o3vhKoF8

See if you can pick him out before he starts shooting. The robbers certainly didn't.

Oh yeah, no one other than the robbers were injured -- and he shot both of them.

[z0sa]

Not to mention that by the time the theater cleared, the massive damage is already done.

Exactly. I'm on Yoni's side of the table, technically, but I'm a realist - and the AR wielding gunman needs only a short burst to end my life, should he realize I'm sticking around.


People describe him walking calmly up the aisle shooting those cowering behind the seats.

There was time.


Or not. More people weren't shot than were.

Hey, if someone could have gone special forces on his ass, I'd have been all for it. Shit, crawl up and slit his throat for all I care, but that wouldn't have stopped him doing the majority or all of his damage.

[ElNono]

But it'd happen just like the movies ...

Nope. In the movies, Batman jumps off the screen and kills that douche... get it right.

[vy65]

TBH I'd like to see Yoni patrolling the Tokyo subway to put a check on Japanese rape culture

[cantthinkofanything]

Yeah, that is why I had my first instinct, but because I don't have to make a quick decision (no fight or flight), I can engage my prefrontal cortex and try to figure it out. A 10 shot clip and NO modification hardware sounds good, but we shall see.

edit: the sarcasm wasn't directed at you (or anyone in particular).

no...I got you. I misread your earlier post anyway.

[vy65]

lol

Everything I learned about self-defense I learned from Youtube

[Yonivore]

I'm not sure the problem is with assault rifles is it? He cold have killed just as many with a couple of high capacity pistols. I've been against any kind of additional gun control period but if something had to be done, I wouldn't be too upset about limiting magazine capacity to 10.
Magazine technology isn't rocket science. There are homemade magazines that will hold dozens of rounds.

[Drachen]

Nope. In the movies, Batman jumps off the screen and kills that douche... get it right.

Last Action Hero?

[ElNono]

Does Bruce Wayne has a CCL? :cry

[Yonivore]

Exactly. I'm on Yoni's side of the table, technically, but I'm a realist - and the AR wielding gunman needs only a short burst to end my life, should he realize I'm sticking around.
Burst? It wasn't an automatic weapon. He still had to pull the trigger on each round. Now who's influenced by the movies.


Hey, if someone could have gone special forces on his ass, I'd have been all for it. Shit, crawl up and slit his throat for all I care, but that wouldn't have stopped him doing the majority or all of his damage.
Depends on how early that intervention occurs.

[z0sa]

Burst? It wasn't an automatic weapon. He still had to pull the trigger on each round. Now who's influenced by the movies.

What's the big difference between pulling a trigger once or twice?



Depends on how early that intervention occurs.

True.

[cantthinkofanything]

Magazine technology isn't rocket science. There are homemade magazines that will hold dozens of rounds.

no shit?

I hear there are lots of things you can make at home that are illegal.

[Yonivore]

What's the big difference between pulling a trigger once or twice?
Quite a bit when your moving your muzzle from target to target instead of holding down the trigger and sweeping the theater.

[clambake]

i hope the hero was wearing a mask......or regularly showers with pepper spray.

[z0sa]

Quite a bit when your moving your muzzle from target to target instead of holding down the trigger and sweeping the theater.

I mean in terms of aiming at me specifically.

[Yonivore]

no shit?

I hear there are lots of things you can make at home that are illegal.
So, what would be the point in making them illegal if the result is going to be law-abiding citizens being restricted from having them while criminals will continue to possess them?

[ElNono]

What's the big difference between pulling a trigger once or twice?

Because the first thing you think when a lunatic opens fire on a crowded theater is... "wait, is that only a semi-automatic gun? let me get my handgun out" :lol

[clambake]

and if you love your family enough, you'll always have a mask and/or shower regularly with pepper spray.

[Yonivore]

I mean in terms of aiming at me specifically.
Again, one bullet to a non-lethal part of your body is more survivable than a barrage of bullets grouped in the same spot.

The firing rate between a semi-automatic and automatic weapon is the difference between one bullet wound and six, or more.

[Yonivore]

Because the first thing you think when a lunatic opens fire on a crowded theater is... "wait, is that only a semi-automatic gun? let me get my handgun out" :lol
For someone that's adequately trained, perhaps it is.

Say, would you have been alright with an off-duty officer, who happened to be at the movie with his family, using his concealed weapon to take the shooter out?

[z0sa]

Again, one bullet to a non-lethal part of your body is more survivable than a barrage of bullets grouped in the same spot.

The firing rate between a semi-automatic and automatic weapon is the difference between one bullet wound and six, or more.

Why argue semantics? The premise was that I had to wait for a clear shot. By the time I have a clear shot, he's had ample chance to observe my position and fire at will.

Like I said, maybe I could go special forces and hide my position and hope that he doesn't shoot in my general direction . . . but then again, he causes major damage.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Another thing not being considered.

How would the gunman have responded if he started taking return fire?

The place was chaotic and smoky for him, as well. Perhaps he would have fled out the exit door or, as in the case of the church shooting, killed himself.

He's human, too. With the same fright/flight mechanisms as the rest of us.

Is this what happens in your fantasy? You draw a bead and he runs away with you saving the day?

[ElNono]

Say, would you have been alright with an off-duty officer, who happened to be at the movie with his family, using his concealed weapon to take the shooter out?

I need more info about this officer. Would that off-duty officer be sane enough to know not to open fire on a moving, frenzied crowd?

[ChumpDumper]

For someone that's adequately trained, perhaps it is.

Say, would you have been alright with an off-duty officer, who happened to be at the movie with his family, using his concealed weapon to take the shooter out?Sure, I'm also fine with business owners' saying keep your guns out of here.

[Drachen]

For someone that's adequately trained, perhaps it is.

Say, would you have been alright with an off-duty officer, who happened to be at the movie with his family, using his concealed weapon to take the shooter out?

Dude, you don't get it. EVERYONE HERE would have loved if someone would have recognized the situation and taken him out even before the event started whether by gun, knife, hammer, shiv, or club. Everyone. The argument is that a person with a gun, or two, or 75 had a much higher probability of making things worse in a chaotic crowded theater filled with two canisters of tear gas and no lights.

[Yonivore]

Why argue semantics? The premise was that I had to wait for a clear shot. By the time I have a clear shot, he's had ample chance to observe my position and fire at will.
Are you glued to the spot?


Like I said, maybe I could go special forces and hide my position and hope that he doesn't shoot in my general direction . . . but then again, he causes major damage.
Again, more people weren't shot than were. Holmes isn't omnipotent and he certainly doesn't have the capability of seeing all places at all times.

As I keep repeating, according to witnesses, his attention was drawn to those fleeing to the exits and those on the floor between seats -- as he walked past the aisles.

Your presumption is he's even noticed you when, odds are, he hasn't...unless, of course, you're running for an exit or on the floor between seats as he walked by.

[Yonivore]

Dude, you don't get it. EVERYONE HERE would have loved if someone would have recognized the situation and taken him out even before the event started whether by gun, knife, hammer, shiv, or club. Everyone. The argument is that a person with a gun, or two, or 75 had a much higher probability of making things worse in a chaotic crowded theater filled with two canisters of tear gas and no lights.
I understand that and, I simply disagree.

The 71 year-old in the internet cafe didn't make it worse.

Jeanne Assam didn't make it worse.

Give me an example of where a CHL carrier made it worse.

[vy65]

I don't think Yoni's ever been to the movies :cry

[Drachen]

I understand that and, I simply disagree.

The 71 year-old in the internet cafe didn't make it worse.

Jeanne Assam didn't make it worse.

Give me an example of where a CHL carrier made it worse.

Empty Casino =/= packed movie theater

[z0sa]

Are you glued to the spot?

Not necessarily, but the same area? Yes, I would be. IMHO, in this case, waiting for a good shot means staying low, still and waiting for your area to clear of innocents before aiming and firing decisively - not scrambling around looking for a shot and drawing attention to yourself while possibly impeding the escape of others.

[Blake]

Give me an example of where a CHL carrier made it worse.

Zimmerman

[ElNono]

Empty Casino =/= packed movie theater

Yeah, that really looked like a dark, crowded theater...

[Yonivore]

Empty Casino =/= packed movie theater
You're right, there were only 30 potential victims in a smaller area than the theater. They were still fish in a barrel.

Even then, the robbers were unable to identify and respond to a threat before being shot. How many more people did Holmes have to keep an eye on?

Tell me, if there had been a security camera pointed at the spot where Holmes entered and started shooting, how crowded would that theater have appeared?

I think we've exhausted the arguments. In fact, the trolls are starting to circle the pool.

[ChumpDumper]

I understand that and, I simply disagree.

The 71 year-old in the internet cafe didn't make it worse.

Jeanne Assam didn't make it worse.

Give me an example of where a CHL carrier made it worse.Houston Police confirm it was a customer with a concealed handgun license who accidentally shot and killed a store clerk. The CHL holder was trying to protect Tyrza Smith, 26, from armed robbers, but something went terribly wrong and she was killed.

http://www.myfoxhouston.com/story/18661869/chl

I'll give him a C for courage, though.

[Yonivore]

Zimmerman
Depends on what you believe. That's another thread.

[ElNono]

If this is the off-duty officer (http://www.whptv.com/news/local/story/UPDATE-3-Criminal-charges-filed-against-cop-who/1kf_ximJzUm2YFBB2-AtYg.cspx) that's in the theater with me, I better run and run fast...

[Blake]

Depends on what you believe. That's another thread.

I believe Martin didn't deserve death.

[cantthinkofanything]

So, what would be the point in making them illegal if the result is going to be law-abiding citizens being restricted from having them while criminals will continue to possess them?

Specifically dealing with magazines, I just don't think many would-be mass murderers are going to make their own. While it's not rocket science, it's not something that anyone can do with precision. Unless I'm an expert, I'd rather have a 10 round factory mag than some 30 round mag that I made at home myself.

[Yonivore]

I believe Martin didn't deserve death.
Nor did Zimmerman.

Either way, nothing was made worse -- it appears one or the other was going to be killed. It's a wash in the "CHL-carrier-made-it-worse" category.

[Blake]

Nor did Zimmerman.

Either way, nothing was made worse -- it appears one or the other was going to be killed. It's a wash in the "CHL-carrier-made-it-worse" category.

If Zimmerman wasn't carrying, would Martin have skittled him to death?

[Yonivore]

Specifically dealing with magazines, I just don't think many would-be mass murderers are going to make their own.
Didn't this guy make homemade tear gas and bombs and shit?


While it's not rocket science, it's not something that anyone can do with precision.
Only if you make them from scratch. Bigger spring, a little tack welding and two 10-round magazines are now a 20-round magazine. These aren't complicated pieces of machinery -- particularly of you preserve the tolerance-requiring aspects intact.


Unless I'm an expert, I'd rather have a 10 round factory mag than some 30 round mag that I made at home myself.
I agree, so would I. Actually, I'd rather have 3 10-round magazines than some 30 round mag I made at home. But, truth be told, if I saw the need for 30 rounds, I'd rather have a 30 round manufactured magazine.

[Yonivore]

If Zimmerman wasn't carrying, would Martin have skittled him to death?
He might have beat him to death. It can be done -- particularly when you're bashing their head on a concrete slab. Or, he could have just choked him to death.

[Blake]

He might have beat him to death. It can be done -- particularly when you're bashing their head on a concrete slab. Or, he could have just choked him to death.

Or Zimmerman wouldn't have had the balls to get out his car to begin with.

[cantthinkofanything]

Didn't this guy make homemade tear gas and bombs and shit?

Yeah...this guy did. But I have no doubt that most wouldn't begin to know how.



Only if you make them from scratch. Bigger spring, a little tack welding and two 10-round magazines are now a 20-round magazine. These aren't complicated pieces of machinery -- particularly of you preserve the tolerance-requiring aspects intact.


again...not incredibly complicated but enough so that some would not try it.

As I said, I don't support any more gun control laws. Reason being that I don't think it would end at magazines. But on its own, I don't see much harm in restricting magazine capacity.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Houston Police confirm it was a customer with a concealed handgun license who accidentally shot and killed a store clerk. The CHL holder was trying to protect Tyrza Smith, 26, from armed robbers, but something went terribly wrong and she was killed.

http://www.myfoxhouston.com/story/18661869/chl

I'll give him a C for courage, though.

[Yonivore]

Yeah...this guy did. But I have no doubt that most wouldn't begin to know how.
But, we're talking about this guy having access to 30 round clips. Why do you keep moving the goal posts and arguing over the most pedantic aspects of this issue.

Bottom line.

Evil exists. There are people that are going to try and massacre a bunch of other people every so often. And, if there's no one there to try and stop them, they will succeed. The more people equipped and trained to stop such tragedies, the more likely it is they will be prevented.


again...not incredibly complicated but enough so that some would not try it.
How do you know? Why don't you just say, I don't think I could do it so, therefore, it would be difficult for anyone else.


As I said, I don't support any more gun control laws. Reason being that I don't think it would end at magazines. But on its own, I don't see much harm in restricting magazine capacity.
And I don't see any benefit to doing so. We simply disagree and that's okay.

[Yonivore]

Or Zimmerman wouldn't have had the balls to get out his car to begin with.
Well, he did get out of the car...under perfectly legal pretenses.

Incidentally, and being a CHL I can at least agree with this point, I believe I recall Zimmerman saying he didn't even think about his weapon until, during the struggle, his jacket bunched up and exposed it and he became fearful Martin was trying to gain control of it.

If you carry a weapon every day, it's not the first thing on your mind -- even in situations such as Zimmerman encountered. I've never pulled my weapon out of its holster in anticipation of using it.

This really belongs in the other thread, though.

[ChumpDumper]

God damn, you and Zimmerman are idiots.

[Blake]

God damn, you and Zimmerman are idiots.

[Yonivore]

Zimmerman and I are alive.

[ChumpDumper]

You needlessly killed a kid too?

Strange boast tbh.

[Blake]

You needlessly killed a kid too?

Strange boast tbh.

Yoni is posting from jail?

[Yonivore]

Yoni is posting from jail?
Self-defense isn't a crime.

[ChumpDumper]

yoni has killed literally dozens of potential mass murderers.

Respect.

[Latarian Milton]

Dude, you don't get it. EVERYONE HERE would have loved if someone would have recognized the situation and taken him out even before the event started whether by gun, knife, hammer, shiv, or club. Everyone. The argument is that a person with a gun, or two, or 75 had a much higher probability of making things worse in a chaotic crowded theater filled with two canisters of tear gas and no lights.

the fact is you need them guns to protect yourself, or at least use them to fear off any potential burglars. however if you don't have a gun, you easily become a target to criminals. it'd be an ideal world w/o conflicts and crimes, but thinking that banning guns would make the country safer to live in is just as stupid as wishing the terrorists to stop attacking us in exchange for us not "invading" their lands :lol

killing ain't the guilt of guns, but the persons who use them guns for evil purposes. if you feel so uncomfortable living with 3.1m firearms in this country, you're welcome to go back where you came from anyday

[Blake]

Self-defense isn't a crime.

Who said it was?

[Yonivore]

Yoni is posting from jail?
You implied.

[Blake]

You implied.

I asked.

[Yonivore]

I asked.
And, in doing so, implied.

[ploto]

This thread typifies for me the main concern that I have with those who are so enthusiastic about gun ownership They have a hero complex that somehow they are the one who could save tons of people when in truth they are more likely to shoot a family member accidentally in their own home than to save a theatre full of frantic people.

[Blake]

And, in doing so, implied.

No I didn't. You assume too much.

[Winehole23]

And, in doing so, implied.I thought Blake was improvising in the vein of ChumpDumper's lighthearted jest about you being a mass murderer of mass murderers, but I could be wrong. Maybe it was a straight question.

[Drachen]

I thought Blake was improvising in the vein of ChumpDumper's lighthearted jest about you being a mass murderer of mass murderers, but I could be wrong. Maybe it was a straight question.

Yoni is Dexter??? wow! I never knew.

[Winehole23]

lol

[cantthinkofanything]

But, we're talking about this guy having access to 30 round clips. Why do you keep moving the goal posts and arguing over the most pedantic aspects of this issue.

Bottom line.

Evil exists. There are people that are going to try and massacre a bunch of other people every so often. And, if there's no one there to try and stop them, they will succeed. The more people equipped and trained to stop such tragedies, the more likely it is they will be prevented.


How do you know? Why don't you just say, I don't think I could do it so, therefore, it would be difficult for anyone else.


And I don't see any benefit to doing so. We simply disagree and that's okay.

Sometimes...when I read your posts...I wonder if I'm on the wrong side of things because you're so stupid.

[Yonivore]

Sometimes...when I read your posts...I wonder if I'm on the wrong side of things because you're so stupid.
Somtimes...when I read your posts...I respond because I think there are points worth discussing. But, I never even remember who you are or what you say from day to day and I certainly don't make assumption about your intelligence based on what you put in here.

That would be stupid.

I really don't understand the frequency with which people devolve to name-calling in an anonymous forum where very few of us even know the others. Seriously, what compelled you to post that? I'm curious. Was the quote you selected some response to something you posted that you found yourself unable to respond so, you decided to name-call? Or, did you just read the words in that quote and decide I was stupid? And, if that's the case -- which words convinced you of my stupidity?

Well, thank God my self-esteem and success in life aren't dependent on your assessment of me as an anonymous poster in an internet forum. One shudders at the thought.

[clambake]

yoni is packin cuz he loves his family sooooooo much.

police: why did you kill your wife?

yoni: cuz i loved her toooooo much.

[cantthinkofanything]

Somtimes...when I read your posts...I respond because I think there are points worth discussing. But, I never even remember who you are or what you say from day to day and I certainly don't make assumption about your intelligence based on what you put in here.

That would be stupid.

I really don't understand the frequency with which people devolve to name-calling in an anonymous forum where very few of us even know the others. Seriously, what compelled you to post that? I'm curious. Was the quote you selected some response to something you posted that you found yourself unable to respond so, you decided to name-call? Or, did you just read the words in that quote and decide I was stupid? And, if that's the case -- which words convinced you of my stupidity?

Well, thank God my self-esteem and success in life aren't dependent on your assessment of me as an anonymous poster in an internet forum. One shudders at the thought.

Well...for the most part, I find myself siding with you more than not. But then when you argue the point, I can't find anything that confirms why I agree with you in the first place.

I guess if I had to come up with an analogy....

Close my eyes...
I'm in a large room with a bunch of people and we're all voting on very important stuff. We all cast our votes and I vote, "yes". Someone says, "everyone that voted, "yes", please stand". I stand and open my eyes. Everyone standing is retarded. I mentally question my vote.

[Yonivore]

Well...for the most part, I find myself siding with you more than not. But then when you argue the point, I can't find anything that confirms why I agree with you in the first place.

I guess if I had to come up with an analogy....

Close my eyes...
I'm in a large room with a bunch of people and we're all voting on very important stuff. We all cast our votes and I vote, "yes". Someone says, "everyone that voted, "yes", please stand". I stand and open my eyes. Everyone standing is retarded. I mentally question my vote.
You seem to be questioning your own intelligence, not mine. I'll leave you to it then.

[Drachen]

You seem to be questioning your own intelligence, not mine. I'll leave you to it then.

That is the point. I believe. He questions his intelligence. This is for a reason. The reason is he opened his eyes. His open eyes confirmed your mental deficiencies.
- in the hypothetical

To cantthink: these people exist on all sides.

[Yonivore]

I believe that is the point of the hypothetical, he questions his intelligence because he has opened his eyes and confirmed your mental deficiencies. -in the hypothetical.

To can'tthink: these people exist on all sides.
Would you correct the punctuation and spelling so I can see if I'm right about what I think you're trying to say?

[Drachen]

Would you correct the punctuation and spelling so I can see if I'm right about what I think you're trying to say?

I have done my best to remove the compound sentences so that my post is more understandable to you.

[DMX7]

George Zimmerman just loves his family... and hates black kids.

[Oh, Gee!!]

the two most recent mass-shootings I recall, the Sen. Giffords shooting and the Aurora shooting, occurred in states where people can carry concealed weapons. Is it Yoni's point that people should be required to carry instead of just permitted?

[ElNono]

the two most recent mass-shootings I recall, the Sen. Giffords shooting and the Aurora shooting, occurred in states where people can carry concealed weapons. Is it Yoni's point that people should be required to carry instead of just permitted?

That's a coincidence. However, one prosecuted case of voter fraud is clearly a trend. /Yoni

[ChumpDumper]

If every voter was required to conceal carry, the black panthers wouldn't have been able to intimidate zero voters in the 2008 election.

[Yonivore]

I have done my best to remove the compound sentences so that my post is more understandable to you.
I got that part, which is why I suggested he is questioning his own intelligence and would leave him to the task.

It was the "To can'tthink:" part that still has me flummoxed.

[Latarian Milton]

^ or put his shit through google translating machine, converting it to chinese and back to english then it might make better sense imho.

[Drachen]

I got that part, which is why I suggested he is questioning his own intelligence and would leave him to the task.

It was the "To can'tthink:" part that still has me flummoxed.

the poster which you were responding to has the handle: cantthinkofanything. My autocorrect added the apostrophe and I didn't delete it.

Edit:

Sup Rogue: I have posted in the Phil Collins thread in the club, so when you are done providing your zany insight to my post here, make sure to follow me on over there.
I figure, if I am going to have a stalker, I might as well make it easy for her.