Ginobili's and Parker's place in history

[TD 21]

Duncan's is well documented. We all know he's considered the greatest PF of all time and one of the ten best players of all time.

But what about Ginobili and Parker? Where do they fit now and where will they fit when they retire?

I've got Ginobili around top 50 and top 8 SG (Jordan, Bryant, Wade, Robertson, West, Drexler, Gervin). That might sound a little high at first, but at his best, he was even better than that. The problem was, he couldn't sustain his best like the vast majority of the all time greats. He hasn't even played 32 mpg in a season. Not that he couldn't have obviously, but I think most would concede he wasn't built to play 36-40 mpg and that has to count for something.

Because of this and his age, he's probably just about maxed out. Of course, if he re-signs for 2 years after this season and they have 1-2 more deep runs in the next 3 years and maybe even breakthrough and get to one more Finals, that could change things. In reality though, I'm realistic enough to know that the masses have no clue just how good he was and wouldn't dare put anywhere near the top 50.

Parker, I've got around top 80 and borderline top 10 PG (Johnson, Paul, Thomas, Stockton, Kidd, Payton, Frazier, Nash, Iverson, Williams). That might sound like too big a gap between the two, but the reality is, though Parker is vastly under appreciated by Spurs fans, advanced stats indicate they're really not that close. Parker is more consistent and can carry a bigger load, but Ginobili's game was superstar caliber in his prime; Parker, by no measure, was ever of that caliber.

What he has going for him that Ginobili doesn't, however, is that he's still in his prime and could climb higher. He'll also statistically finish much higher up in many categories than Ginobili and finish with more awards/accomplishments (NBA, not internationally). Even though he's also been underrated throughout his career, because he could finish top 60 all time in scoring and because he has a Finals MVP and a top five finish in MVP voting, it probably won't be considered outlandish to call him a top 75 player when it's all said and done.

[sehui]

parkers not anywhere close to top 10 pg.

[ElNono]

Outside of Spurfan, I don't expect neither Tony or Manu to be on too many "top" lists, tbh

[DontStopBelieving]

Outside of Spurfan, I don't expect neither Tony or Manu to be on too many "top" lists, tbh

Sucks, but true.

[Brazil]

Outside of Spurfan, I don't expect neither Tony or Manu to be on too many "top" lists, tbh

true dat even if I think manu would be in more top list than tp tbh

[Andthentherewas21]

Outside of Spurfan, I don't expect neither Tony or Manu to be on too many "top" lists, tbh

I don't think either gets a particularly large amount of respect from fans. I think around the league, Manu is fairly respected by players, and would probably have been toward the bottom of a few top 10 lists a few years ago. However the injuries have really hampered Manu's legacy in regards to the NBA.

As for Parker, I'm pretty sure most people (players and fans both) see him as a prototypical all-star, where he is always good and for a few seasons throughout his career he could lead a team. But in the end, I think he'll always be viewed as being the #2 or #3 option on a championship team, despite the Finals MVP.

[8FOR!3]

That's because Spurs fans are basically the only NBA fans knowledgeable of Manu Ginobili's actual accomplishments. Your average basketball fan will tell you that Ginobili won a couple of titles as a 6th man. Spurs fans know better and that doesn't even cover the surface of his career.

[Floyd Pacquiao]

one of the best back courts of all time no doubt tbh

[smaka]

That's because Spurs fans are basically the only NBA fans knowledgeable of Manu Ginobili's actual accomplishments. Your average basketball fan will tell you that Ginobili won a couple of titles as a 6th man. Spurs fans know better and that doesn't even cover the surface of his career.

great post! I agree completely!

[AussieFanKurt]

Manu should be on lists much higher than Tony.

[Bruno]

First, the vast majority of NBA fans only care about the NBA and I had to admit that they are somewhat right.
Second, both Ginobili and Parker are having great NBA careers but they are clearly second tier players. None is even close of being a top 10 at his position.
Third, Parker is having a better NBA career than Ginobili and it's not even debatable.

[racm]

Isn't Parker top 5 in career FG% by a guard?

[eric365]

If spurs won last year with another finals MVP for parker, he would have been top 10 point guard. Now maybe top 20 and he will be pushed out anyway by all the great PG coming in this era for PG

For Manu, it's special. Some people underrate him so much and some other overrate him so much he could be anywhere from top 10 to top 30 SG depending of the person

[ambchang]

Manu in the top 50? Who from the NBA50 do you bump? Not to mention players such as Nique, Nowitzki, Lebron, Wade, Rose, Duncan, Garnett, Webber, Iverson, Bryant, and Nash was not on that team.

[Cane]

The infamous Bill Simmons and his 100ish player rankings book didn't have Tony Parker or Manu Ginobili, for what it's worth. And Simmons is supposed to be one of the few Spurs/Duncan fanboys of the media

Both Manu and Parker will easily get into the basketball HoF....but as for top 50-100 NBA lists it would have to be based around peaks and championships to see their names climb, even though they're both some of the most unique and winningest players that the sport has ever seen :hat

[beirmeistr]

I think Manu will get into the HOF for his international achievements. His 3 NBA titles can only expand his achievements on the basketball court.

[TD 21]

First, the vast majority of NBA fans only care about the NBA and I had to admit that they are somewhat right.
Second, both Ginobili and Parker are having great NBA careers but they are clearly second tier players. None is even close of being a top 10 at his position.
Third, Parker is having a better NBA career than Ginobili and it's not even debatable.

Ginobili is definitely top ten at his position. I don't even see a serious argument for him not being. Robertson, who I listed as an SG, could easily be listed as a PG. So take him out and tell me who, besides, the other 6 I listed, is better? Allen and Miller have piled up numbers Ginobili will never sniff, but neither was as good a player as him. Who else even merits serious consideration? Are you seriously going to tell me the likes of Monroe, Maravich, Jones, Johnson, Bing, Dumars, Greer, Richmond and Carter, were better?

Borderline top ten for Parker was probably pushing it and top 80 might have been as well, but I maintain that he should figure prominently into the discussion for both when he retires. As I said, I could have listed Robertson as a PG and I also left out Cousy and Archibald. Add those 3 to the 10 I listed and you get 13. Who else merits serious mention? Hardaway, Johnson and Billups? I don't see any argument for Parker not being in the top 15.

People need to get past this notion that every good player from the 50's-80's was an all time great, because they've been told they were. The reality is, the vast majority of them ranked a lot higher then than they would now and advanced stats back this up.

ambchang, there's plenty of players I'd bump. Sure, they piled up greater numbers than Ginobili, but that's only because they played so much more.

If it were to be redone: Duncan, James, O'Neal, Bryant, Garnett, Wade, Nowitzki, Nash and Kidd, all make it without debate from the masses. I'd also include Paul, Howard, Ginobili and Gasol. And in the case of Durant, it's only a matter of time. He's already one of the 50 best players ever, he just has to play at that level for a few more seasons and rack up a few more accomplishments before I'd actually put him in the top 50.

[SA210]

I'll say this, a movie can be made about Ginobili, and it would be a damn good story.

Argentine made it to the NBA, unorthodox play, unselfish 3 Championships and beat Team USA for Gold.

It would be a damn great inspirational film. I would definitely do it.

[galvatron3000]

With Tim NOT being anywhere close to being the franchise player he use to be and the team relying heavily on two 2nd tier players to lead the team record at BEST I just don't understand the logic. Sure there are pg's better than Parker through history, and the same for Manu but in this league while they were playing, especially Manu, you'd be hard pressed to find 5 guys better at their positions. Had either been on other teams in suitable systems they could easily be franchise players or VERY close.

[Cane]

Ginobili ranks #60 over at the realgm.com player ranking thread which has 600+ posts.... Sure it's freaking realgm.com, but it shows that online NBA fans appreciate Manu to some extent in addition to Spurs fans

Parker is nowhere to be found but maybe after this past season he'll climb in the next rankings

Chauncey Billups ranked at 83....Parker should at least rival if not exceed that tbh

realgm thread http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1123731

[Sparrowhawk]

Foreign Players get less media attention (except Chinese for a matter of being a big market) => Foreign players are less known => Foreign players are less respected.
Add to that that they play in a small market franchise as San Antonio (which most of the non Spurs fans also think "Spurs are boring") and there is the answer why they get so little recognition and most people will rank them way down low where they deserve.

[therealtruth]

In terms of importance to a championship I have no doubt Manu is second to TD. Parker has wilted more under pressure and big game situations.

[emanueldavidginobili]

There are alot of NBA fans that dont notice this but when it comes to Intangibles, heart and competitiveness Manu Ginobili is top 5 EVER in those attributes.

[MB20]

Manu + Tony

Oi0WlshTBnc

[roycrikside]

The infamous Bill Simmons and his 100ish player rankings book didn't have Tony Parker or Manu Ginobili, for what it's worth. And Simmons is supposed to be one of the few Spurs/Duncan fanboys of the media

Both Manu and Parker will easily get into the basketball HoF....but as for top 50-100 NBA lists it would have to be based around peaks and championships to see their names climb, even though they're both some of the most unique and winningest players that the sport has ever seen :hat

Simmons is not the be all and end all of basketball wisdom. He's pretty biased, tbh.

I don't know how anybody can watch basketball critically and appreciate one-dimensional 2-guards like Reggie Miller and Ray Allen more than Manu. All those guys can do is shoot. However, they don't rebound, they couldn't create for others and couldn't guard anybody. Manu in his prime played Allen in his prime in the playoffs and completely kicked his ass. The 2-guards I respect are guys who can do it all, like MJ, Kobe, Wade and to a lesser degree, Drexler. I'd put Manu below those four as far 2-guards from 1980 to the modern game, but above Joe Dumars.

As far as Parker goes, I think he's a top 100 player too. I don't think a top 10 point guard, but definitely in the top 20. I think objectively I'd have Manu somewhere between No. 75-85 and Parker somewhere between No. 85-100.

[Russo21]

Best and most successful all international backcourt in history? Sounds good to me.

[dunkman]

Isaiah was better than Parker and Dumars was better than Manu, tbh.

[temujin]

Ginobili got me interested in pro basketball once again, when he played in Italy.

And that's because he showed stuff I had never seen on a basketball court before.

As simple as that.

"It's not so much how much he scores, it's the many things he does to beat you and WHEN he does them: exactly when it hurts you more."
End of citation.

Ginobili's spirit easily trascends basketball. Winning 3 NBA titles with a small market team? an Olympic gold with Argentina? The guy is a frigging legend, how can you compare with a bunch of stats machines?

As for Parker, best French player ever, he'll go down in the history of basketball as one of the fastest the PG that perfected the teardrop.

As for the average, fat, fridge-opening, beer-guzzling NBA fan, who cares what they think, seriously?

[Proxy]

Isaiah was better than Parker and Dumars was better than Manu, tbh.

Thomas is on another level, but you're over-romanticizing Dumars.

[Proxy]

Ginobili got me interested in pro basketball once again, when he played in Italy.

And that's because he showed stuff I had never seen on a basketball court before.

As simple as that.

"It's not so much how much he scores, it's the many things he does to beat you and WHEN he does them: exactly when it hurts you more."
End of citation.

Ginobili's spirit easily trascends basketball. Winning 3 NBA titles with a small market team? an Olympic gold with Argentina? The guy is a frigging legend, how can you compare with a bunch of stats machines?

As for Parker, best French player ever, he'll go down in the history of basketball as one of the fastest the PG that perfected the teardrop.

As for the average, fat, fridge-opening, beer-guzzling NBA fan, who cares what they think, seriously?

You have to use facts when you're arguing their rank among the greats. All players are heroes in their fans eyes.

Manu and Parker will have their recognition in being mentioned after Duncan in similar fashion to the way Mchale and Parish are included after the mentioning of Larry. Wouldn't have it any other way.