Of course there's no voter fraud!

[Yonivore]

York: When 1,099 felons vote in race won by 312 ballots (http://washingtonexaminer.com/york-when-1099-felons-vote-in-race-won-by-312-ballots/article/2504163)


177 people have been convicted — not just accused, but convicted — of voting fraudulently in the Senate race. Another 66 are awaiting trial. “The numbers aren’t greater,” the authors say, “because the standard for convicting someone of voter fraud in Minnesota is that they must have been both ineligible, and ‘knowingly’ voted unlawfully.” The accused can get off by claiming not to have known they did anything wrong.

Still, that’s a total of 243 people either convicted of voter fraud or awaiting trial in an election that was decided by 312 votes. With 1,099 examples identified by Minnesota Majority, and with evidence suggesting that felons, when they do vote, strongly favor Democrats, it doesn’t require a leap to suggest there might one day be proof that Al Franken was elected on the strength of voter fraud.

And that’s just the question of voting by felons. Minnesota Majority also found all sorts of other irregularities that cast further doubt on the Senate results.

[MannyIsGod]

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pM22xmNLL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

[Yonivore]

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pM22xmNLL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg
So, you're saying those were Republican felons voting in Minnesota?

[MannyIsGod]

I'm saying that that former GOP employee agrees that voter fraud has been perpetrated. I personally couldn't give two shits about the race you posted about.

[Yonivore]

Comparing some guy who, if he hadn't dialed a number in another state wouldn't have a book, with Democrats' efforts to suppress votes?

[Yonivore]

I'm saying that that former GOP employee agrees that voter fraud has been perpetrated. I personally couldn't give two shits about the race you posted about.
And, I'm called a partisan hack.

For the second time, in just over a decade, Democrats are suing the a State to suppress military votes and this is what you raise in comparison? :lmao

Besides, people who need to be called before they cast their vote should just stay home...they haven't been paying attention to the issues.

[MannyIsGod]

:lmao

Yeah, you're not partisan hack. You're THE partisan hack.

[MannyIsGod]

And, I'm called a partisan hack.

For the second time, in just over a decade, Democrats are suing the a State to suppress military votes and this is what you raise in comparison? :lmao

Besides, people who need to be called before they cast their vote should just stay home...they haven't been paying attention to the issues.

Note: Only one of us has defended any voter suppression by one party. The partisan hack.

[Yonivore]

Note: Only one of us has defended any voter suppression by one party. The partisan hack.
Actually, the OP was in response to those, in the forum, who claim voter fraud does not exist. This is one example of where it probably affected the outcome of a pivotal election.

I abhor it on both sides but, seriously, you're equating what that consultant (not GOP employee) did with what happened in Minnesota? With what's happening in Ohio? With vote buying in Kentucky?

Okay. I'm outraged! File charges on the guy and send him to prison...oh, wait, that happened. Did his scheme result in a change in election results?

[Yonivore]

:lmao

Yeah, you're not partisan hack. You're THE partisan hack.
If that's easier for you than discussing the issues, cool.

[MannyIsGod]

Good luck getting rid of vote fraud. When you're done with that you can get rid of world hunger, bullys, and sadness in general.

Let me know when there is large scale systematic vote fraud. Until then I'm not going to particularly care about isolated cases you bring up because it has always happend and it will always happen. Individuals cheat.

[MannyIsGod]

If that's easier for you than discussing the issues, cool.

Not only a partisan hack, also a martyr!

[Yonivore]

Good luck getting rid of vote fraud. When you're done with that you can get rid of world hunger, bullys, and sadness in general.
Well, if Democrats would stop fighting efforts to rein in voter fraud, it'd be a lot easier.


Let me know when there is large scale systematic vote fraud. Until then I'm not going to particularly care about isolated cases you bring up because it has always happend and it will always happen. Individuals cheat.
I just give an example of how it doesn't need to be pervasive or widespread in order to have a huge impact and you move the goal post?

In 2000, Florida was decided by 157 votes.

Given what's happened in Minnesota, I can understand why the State would want to clear felons and other ineligible voters from the rolls. I can also see why Democrats would want to fight that effort.

In whose corner are you on that issue, Manny?

[MannyIsGod]

I'm not a partisan hack therefore I'm not in anyone's corner.

[MannyIsGod]

This is actually an excellent example of how much of a hack you are. You talk about Democrats not wanting to allow voter purges as an example of them wanting to enable voter fraud without mentioning that such purges often remove legit voters from the rolls just as well. You try to boil every issue down to black and white where the GOP is obviously in the right. Its idiocy that I'm fairly sure no one on these forums buys. Do you ever wonder why practically everyone you talk to on these boards considers you a joke?

[Yonivore]

This is actually an excellent example of how much of a hack you are. You talk about Democrats not wanting to allow voter purges as an example of them wanting to enable voter fraud without mentioning that such purges often remove legit voters from the rolls just as well.
You suggest it can't be done without disqualifying legitimate voters?


You try to boil every issue down to black and white where the GOP is obviously in the right.
In this case, they are obviously right. We've yet to touch on the entire spectrum of Conservative ideology with which I vehemently disagree but, that doesn't mean we can't and that I might actually prove to be something other than the partisan hack you believe.

This is a pretty myopic forum where the topic on which we mostly agree never come up. It's designed for discussing differences.

Threads on the War on Drugs don't get very far because, well, most of us agree it's a monumental waste of time, money and human capital.


Its idiocy that I'm fairly sure no one on these forums buys. Do you ever wonder why practically everyone you talk to on these boards considers you a joke?
It just makes me wonder why you, and others, resort to personal attacks instead of sticking with argument being had.

[Yonivore]

I'm not a partisan hack therefore I'm not in anyone's corner.
Are you ever in the Republican Corner?

[Winehole23]

most of the conversations here to date have been narrowly focused on voter impersonation, not ineligibles voting.

it's hardly any surprise that voting rolls are not meticulously maintained and that felons manage to get on it and vote, like the human beings they resemble. . .

[ChumpDumper]

You suggest it can't be done without disqualifying legitimate voters?The way the Republicans want to do it absolutely will do that -- and that's exactly what they want. You're too much of a hack to accept that.

[Yonivore]

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pM22xmNLL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg
Who knew! There's a counterpoint.


http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51aDxixZjsL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

[ElNono]

So Franken would've won anyways, and 243 people got caught and are being prosecuted for voter fraud. The system works!

[ElNono]

The way the Republicans want to do it absolutely will do that -- and that's exactly what they want. You're too much of a hack to accept that.

Pretty much. The solution to a few hundred alleged fraudulent votes is to disallow hundreds of thousand of perfectly legitimate voters their right to vote.

[ElNono]

FWIW, 243 out of 2,862,451 is 0.008%...

[Yonivore]

FWIW, 243 out of 2,862,451 is 0.008%...
FWIW, the race was eventually decided by 312 votes. Also, 243 were only the ones that were prosecuted, there were over a thousand identified.

I think, eventually, we will learn the Al Franken -- a pivotal seat in the Senate, at the time -- was sent there by fraudulent votes.

Again, voter fraud need neither be pervasive nor widespread in order to have a significant impact on an election.

[ElNono]

FWIW, the race was eventually decided by 312 votes. Also, 243 were only the ones that were prosecuted, there were over a thousand identified.

"identified" means shit. Investigations were conducted and 243 felons were charged and prosecuted. The system works!

Franken would've won regardless and "voter fraud" is near zero. Facts.

[Yonivore]

"identified" means shit. Investigations were conducted and 243 felons were charged and prosecuted. The system works!

Franken would've won regardless and "voter fraud" is near zero. Facts.
Okay. :::smh:::

[ElNono]

0.008%!!!!! massive voter fraud!

[ChumpDumper]

So the ID laws wouldn't have stopped any of the fraud you mentioned.

Nice!

I'm glad you agree with me that current safeguards need to be implemented in a more timely manner.

[ElNono]

That race was an outlier too... how many state races have been within 500 votes?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Art of War
How Republicans mastered voter suppression.

Timothy Noah
August 2, 2012 | 12:00 am
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THE GOP IS supposed to pretend that its 2012 strategy doesn’t include the systematic disenfranchisement of lower-income blacks and Latinos. But in June, Mike Turzai, Republican majority leader of the Pennsylvania House, blew his party’s cover by blurting out: “Voter ID, which is going to allow Governor [Mitt] Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania? Done.” The press was jubilant. It was as if Koch Enterprises had acknowledged global warming.

Since at least 2008, when minority voters gave Barack Obama his victory margin––Obama won only 43 percent of the white vote––Republicans have increasingly relied on voter suppression to counterbalance the steady shrinkage of America’s white majority. Former Florida GOP Chairman Jim Greer (currently under indictment for stealing party funds) stated in a deposition released in July that a 2009 party meeting included discussion of “voter suppression and keeping blacks from voting.” In December, Paul Schurick, a top aide to former Maryland Governor Bob Ehrlich, was convicted of election fraud for using automated phone calls to suppress the African American vote during Ehrlich’s unsuccessful 2010 bid. “The first and most desired outcome is voter suppression,” stated one consultant’s memo entered into evidence. It described a “Schurick Doctrine” to “promote confusion, emotionalism and frustration among African American Democrats.”

Most of the disenfranchisement is less obviously crude and presented to the public as hygienic electoral reform. But the pathogens it seeks to remove are African Americans, Latinos, and other lower-income folks who resist voting Republican. You’ve probably heard something about it, but Turzai’s gaffe invites us to review, with open eyes, how this racket actually works. It’s an obscenity no longer hiding in plain sight.

Voter ID. The preeminent tool. Attorney General Eric Holder has correctly likened voter ID laws, which have passed in 33 states, to poll taxes. Their popularity derives from their reasonableness. Why shouldn’t we prevent imposters from committing electoral identity theft? Because it solves a nonexistent problem. New York University Law School’s Brennan Center for Justice calculates the incidence of individual voter fraud to be literally equivalent to the incidence of individual Americans getting struck by lightning.

What voter ID laws are useful for is reducing voter participation by you know who. Requiring an unexpired government-issued ID, a bank statement, or a utility bill is good. Requiring an unexpired government-issued photo ID, such as a driver’s license or a passport, is better, because about 25 percent of African Americans and 16 percent of Latinos don’t have any––as against 11 percent of the general population. The nine states with the strictest photo ID requirements are mostly rural, which means the government offices where such ID can be obtained are likelier to be far away and to keep irregular hours. The Woodville, Mississippi office is open only on the second Thursday of every month. Wisconsin’s Sauk City office is open only on the fifth Wednesday of every month, and since eight months in 2012 don’t even have a fifth Wednesday, the office will open its doors only four days this year.

Voter registration. Before you vote, you have to register. Five states now require proof of citizenship with an unexpired passport (something fewer than one-third of Americans possess) or a birth certificate or a naturalization certificate (to which about 7 percent lack easy access). Since acquiring these documents can easily cost as much as $100, this requirement has the virtue of weeding out both legal immigrants and the native-born poor. The ostensible target is undocumented immigrants, but they have even less incentive to commit voter fraud than American citizens do: In addition to steep fines and imprisonment, they’d risk deportation.

Another tactic, favored in Texas and Florida, is to target nonprofit groups that conduct voter-registration drives (the League of Women Voters, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People). This is achieved by imposing onerous new training, registration, and/or liability burdens on the groups’ volunteers. The proportion of African American and Latino voters who register through third-party drives is about twice what it is for whites.

Closing the polls. Since lower-income voters more often work early in the morning or late at night, Republicans tend to favor shorter polling hours. They justify this with feigned concern about the stamina of (often elderly) volunteers. A similarly motivated opposition has mobilized against early voting arrangements that let people vote on weekends. Sunday voting is a particular target. The stated reason is that it’s impious. (Glenn Beck: “This is an affront to God.”) The actual reason is that Sunday voting allows black churches to provide “souls to polls” transport after services. Ohio and Florida have eliminated it.

Purging. States have to update their voter lists, right? Federal law requires certain safeguards, such as notifying those found ineligible so they can dispute erroneous removals. But many such formalities go unobserved, especially if you purge close enough to Election Day. (In this, as in many other subcategories, the gold medal goes to Republican Florida Governor Rick Scott, who has been doing battle with the Justice Department over the legality of his planned purge of noncitizens.) A variation on purging is caging, wherein nonforwardable letters are sent to voters in African American neighborhoods. Whichever letters get returned unopened occasion instant purges. The Republican National Committee got caught doing this in the 1980s, and now the party is not allowed to under a consent decree. But considerable evidence suggests the GOP has quietly resumed the practice anyway.

Robocalls. Automated phone calls aimed at discouraging people from going to the polls. Before the failed June vote to recall Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker, a robocall said anyone who signed a recall petition didn’t have to vote (which wasn’t true). Maryland’s Schurick put out a robocall in 2010 assuring voters in African American neighborhoods that his candidate’s Democratic opponent, Governor Martin O’Malley, was well ahead (and thus unlikely to need more votes).

The GOP has other, similarly repulsive schemes afoot, but these are the most egregious. As for the Republican nominee: Don’t hold your breath waiting for Mitt Romney to condemn something his party sees as essential to victory.

http://www.tnr.com/article/magazine/politics/105740/republican-voter-suppression-pennsylvania-id

[FuzzyLumpkins]

double post is double

[boutons_deux]

GOP Voter Fraud Hucksters Latest Lie: Felons Made Franken U.S. Senator

The problem with this assertion—from a new book [6] by The Wall Street Journal’s John Fund and George W. Bush Justice Department attorney Hans von Spakovsky—is that it is not just factually wrong, according to Minnesota Supreme Court records, the Minnesota prosecutor who investigated most of the cases, and some of the country’s top election scholars, but it is intended to rile a segment of the Right that thinks it is patriotic [7] to demonize voting by non-whites and disrupt voting for everyone else.

“They are talking in code to their base,” said Rutgers University’s Lori Minnite, co-author of Keeping Down The Black Vote: Race and the Demobilization of American Voters. “Von Spakovsky and Fund know exactly what they are doing.”

“There is no basis in fact, whatsoever, in these inaccuracies propagated by the Minnesota Majority here, none,” Hennepin County Attorney Mike Freeman said Wednesday. “After the most closely scrutinized election in Minnesota history in 2008, there were zero cases of fraud. Even the Republicans lawyers acknowledged that there was no systematic effort to defraud the election, none.”

“In Hennepin County, 650,000 people voted,” he continued. “The Minnesota Majority presented us with 1,500 cases that they felt there were problems with voting. Our own election bureau gave us 100. At the end of the day, we charged 38 cases. And all but one of them are felons voting who were still under the penalty [of not legally applying to regain individual voting rights]. There was no fraud.”

In many cases, former felons are not aware that they have to go through a legal process to regain their voting rights, unlike getting a driver’s license.

“How many of the former felons were registered to vote but never voted,” said Kathy Bonnifield, executive director of Citizens for Election Integrity Minnesota, which issued its report [8] on scapegoating felons in November 2010—five months after the rightwingers first raised [9] the spectre of illegal felon voting. “There is a lot of devil in those details.”


http://www.alternet.org/print/gop-voter-fraud-hucksters-latest-lie-felons-made-franken-us-senator

[Yonivore]

That race was an outlier too... how many state races have been within 500 votes?
Florida in 2000 decided the outcome of the Presidential election with 157 votes.

[DarrinS]

Why isn't the honor system good enough?

[ElNono]

Florida in 2000 decided the outcome of the Presidential election with 157 votes.

So 2 races in 12+ years?

[ElNono]

Why isn't the honor system good enough?

What honor system?

[Yonivore]

So 2 races in 12+ years?
Pretty fucking important ones, if you ask me.

Perhaps there aren't more notable incidents of voter fraud because the races weren't close enough for it to matter.

It has been suggested the 1960 Presidential election was affected by voter fraud.

Again, where is it being said that voter fraud need be either pervasive or widespread for it to have enormous impacts on our system of government?

[ElNono]

Pretty fucking important ones, if you ask me.

I'm asking you if it's 2 races in 12+ years?... I really don't care what you think it's important.


Perhaps there aren't more notable incidents of voter fraud because the races weren't close enough for it to matter.

Or perhaps it's simply because 0.008% is negligible.

[Yonivore]

I'm asking you if it's 2 races in 12+ years?... I really don't care what you think it's important.
Who cares what you're asking. The consequences of voter fraud, in those two cases alone, are sufficient for me to support current measures to prevent it.


Or perhaps it's simply because 0.008% is negligible.
I wouldn't call giving the Senate a filibuster-proof majority or potentially handing the presidency to the wrong person negligible but, that's just me.

[ElNono]

:blah

Is that a yes or a no?

[Yonivore]

Is that a yes or a no?
It's a no. Voter fraud is rampant in this country. From vote buying in Kentucky to absentee ballot fraud in Florida. Who know how many elections have been affected?

I find it revealing you're not concerned voter fraud could have thrown the election to George W. Bush in 2000 or that, it's quite apparent (if not yet definitive) that voter fraud put Al Franken in a Senate Seat that had a huge impact on the first two years of the Obama administration.

[ElNono]

It's a no.

So what other state races were that close in the past 12+ years?

[Yonivore]

So what other state races were that close in the past 12+ years?
I have no idea, it's not important to me. I've already stated voter fraud need neither be pervasive nor widespread to be a significant problem and I've give two huge examples where that's been the case.

You disagree, I get it. Thank God you aren't the Attorney General; I only wish Eric Holder wasn't.

[ElNono]

I have no idea, it's not important to me.

It's important in establishing if there's rampant fraud. Apparently, there isn't.

[Yonivore]

It's important in establishing if there's rampant fraud. Apparently, there isn't.
I get it, you don't care. Why do you continue to argue? I'm perfectly satisfied letting my position stand against yours on this matter.

We've exhausted the topic.

[ElNono]

I get it, you don't care.

Oh I care. I would love to see ways to reduce that 0.008% even closer to zero that doesn't involve disenfranchising legitimate voters.

Nobody has such a proposal though.

[ChumpDumper]

Again, I'm all for taking care of the fraud you mentioned in a more expedient manner using the methods that found them in the first place.

No new laws are needed -- unless you really want to disenfranchise a group of voters who are more likely to vote Democrat. I sincerely believe that's what you want to do.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It seems to me that he has made a point about the margins in elections relative to the alleged fraud and you are raising the white flag.

The GOP policy is bald 1930s style electioneering.

[ChumpDumper]

Again yoni, I'm all for taking care of the fraud you mentioned in a more expedient manner using the methods that found them in the first place.

No new laws are needed -- unless you really want to disenfranchise a group of voters who are more likely to vote Democrat. I sincerely believe that's what you want to do.

[Yonivore]

Oh I care. I would love to see ways to reduce that 0.008% even closer to zero that doesn't involve disenfranchising legitimate voters.

Nobody has such a proposal though.
So, instead, you settle for the .0008% disenfranchisement caused by the those fraudulent votes even though there's no evidence to suggest there would be any disenfranchisement caused by fraud prevention measures.

And, I guess you're fine with the administration's attempt to disenfranchise military voters in Ohio?

[ChumpDumper]

So, instead, you settle for the .0008% disenfranchisement caused by the those fraudulent votes even though there's no evidence to suggest there would be any disenfranchisement caused by fraud prevention measures.There is plenty of evidence to suggest just that.

I'm sure he would "settle" for ineligible voters' being taken off the rolls in the time between the registration deadline and the election.

[ElNono]

So, instead, you settle for the .0008% disenfranchisement caused by the those fraudulent votes even though there's no evidence to suggest there would be any disenfranchisement caused by fraud prevention measures.

But there is evidence. Already posted in the previous thread about this same subject two weeks ago. That you choose to ignore it is a completely different story.

[ChumpDumper]

Besides, yoni should be fine with all the felons who mistakenly register to vote.
I think ignorance of the law is -- and has been, for quite some time now -- a pretty damn good excuse.

[Yonivore]

But there is evidence. Already posted in the previous thread about this same subject two weeks ago. That you choose to ignore it is a completely different story.
Are more people disenfranchised by fraudulent votes canceling their ballot or by measures to prevent the fraud?

[ChumpDumper]

Are more people disenfranchised by fraudulent votes canceling their ballot or by measures to prevent the fraud?Judging from your numbers?

Definitely the latter -- though I have no idea you would advocate disenfranchisement of any kind.

[ElNono]

Are more people disenfranchised by fraudulent votes canceling their ballot or by measures to prevent the fraud?


Judging from your numbers?

Definitely the latter -- though I have no idea you would advocate disenfranchisement of any kind.

[Yonivore]

I don't but, I'm willing to take the course that results in the least disenfranchisement.

Can you support the assertion fraud prevention measures result in more disenfranchised voters than does actual fraudulent votes?

[ElNono]

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6046801&postcount=55
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6046809&postcount=57
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6046856&postcount=66

http://blogs.philadelphiaweekly.com/phillynow/2012/08/08/not-even-corbett-knows-the-details-of-pennsylvanias-voter-id-law

[Yonivore]

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6046801&postcount=55
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6046809&postcount=57
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6046856&postcount=66
The first two aren't germane and the last one is easily remedied by voters ensuring they obtain proper identification before attempting to vote.

I'm in favor of providing free government identification to those that find themselves in this situation. That would eliminate any possible disenfranchisement.

So, you'd be in favor of measures that prevent disenfranchisement?

[Clipper Nation]

I'm in favor of a voter ID card, issued at the state level, not federal...

[ElNono]

The first two aren't germane and the last one is easily remedied by voters ensuring they obtain proper identification before attempting to vote.

Did you read the link? Absolutely has everything to do with what we're discussing, including examples of why certain people won't be able to obtain proper identification before attempting to vote.

A lot of these laws lack seriousness from the fact that they're passed with only mere months before the election. Not to mention that they disenfranchise a good amount of legitimate voters over concerns that the state itself claims it's never been a problem.

[ChumpDumper]

I don't but, I'm willing to take the course that results in the least disenfranchisement.So you're back to supporting the enforcement of current law in a more timely manner, which would have eliminated all the "fraud" of felons voting mistakenly.

Thanks for agreeing with me yet again.

[ElNono]

There's no "theory" here... PA won't even argue there's voting fraud in their state, and the law right now precludes up to 700,000+ legitimate voters. If the state itself claims there's no fraud, the law then it's entirely there with the purpose to limit legitimate voters.

[Yonivore]

...certain people won't be...
"...won't be..." is not an example of actual disenfranchisement.

Voter fraud prevention measures can be modified to eliminate the the "won't be."


A lot of these laws lack seriousness from the fact that they're passed with only mere months before the election. Not to mention that they disenfranchise a good amount of legitimate voters over concerns that the state itself claims it's never been a problem.
Un-enacted laws have not disenfranchised anyone.

Fraudulent voters have.

[Yonivore]

There's no "theory" here... PA won't even argue there's voting fraud in their state, and the law right now precludes up to 700,000+ legitimate voters. If the state itself claims there's no fraud, the law then it's entirely there with the purpose to limit legitimate voters.
That's Pennsylvania...not even one of the States we've discussed. I can't help their officials aren't able to articulate the problem or draft a law that will work.

[ElNono]

"...won't be..." is not an example of actual disenfranchisement.

Sure it is. They won't be voting or will find out they can't vote when they try. That's effectively disenfranchisement.


Voter fraud prevention measures can be modified to eliminate the the "won't be."

Or they can simply be put together so "won't be" isn't an issue. The question is whether it's worth the effort seeing voter fraud is minimal and the current laws already do a good job of catching the perpetrators.


Un-enacted laws have not disenfranchised anyone.

The PA law is current law.


That's Pennsylvania...not even one of the States we've discussed. I can't help their officials aren't able to articulate the problem or draft a law that will work.

You asked for an example where these "fraud-prevention" disenfranchised more voters than voter fraud. You were given an example.

[Yonivore]

Sure it is. They won't be voting or will find out they can't vote when they try. That's effectively disenfranchisement.
So, make it so they will be eligible to vote when they try.

You act as though the shortcoming are insurmountable.


Or they can simply be put together so "won't be" isn't an issue.
I would advocate that.


The question is whether it's worth the effort seeing voter fraud is minimal and the current laws already do a good job of catching the perpetrators.
Seeing as how the Minnesota election, in 2008, and the Florida election, in 2000, were so close as to possibly be affected by fraud (and, in one case, probably were), I'd say it's worth the effort.


The PA law is current law.
Who's been disenfranchised?


You asked for an example where these "fraud-prevention" disenfranchised more voters than voter fraud. You were given an example.
How many voters were disenfranchised?

[ChumpDumper]

yoni, do you realize the law you are supporting has nothing to do with the "fraud" you cited in the OP?

[Spurs da champs]

yoni, do you realize the law you are supporting has nothing to do with the "fraud" you cited in the OP?

lol he keeps ducking your questions, why bother?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

What voter ID laws are useful for is reducing voter participation by you know who. Requiring an unexpired government-issued ID, a bank statement, or a utility bill is good. Requiring an unexpired government-issued photo ID, such as a driver’s license or a passport, is better, because about 25 percent of African Americans and 16 percent of Latinos don’t have any––as against 11 percent of the general population. The nine states with the strictest photo ID requirements are mostly rural, which means the government offices where such ID can be obtained are likelier to be far away and to keep irregular hours. The Woodville, Mississippi office is open only on the second Thursday of every month. Wisconsin’s Sauk City office is open only on the fifth Wednesday of every month, and since eight months in 2012 don’t even have a fifth Wednesday, the office will open its doors only four days this year.

[ElNono]

So, make it so they will be eligible to vote when they try.

You act as though the shortcoming are insurmountable.

They're insurmountable simply because the law was passed on March, the election is in November, and there was no effort to educate the voting population over the new requirements, nor there was effort put behind getting potential disenfranchised voters in obtaining the required documentation.

As a matter of fact, neither the legislature nor the governor had the slightest idea of how many legitimate voters were going to be affected with this law.

Luckily there's a challenge to the law, and hopefully it will be at the very least suspended until after the election.


Seeing as how the Minnesota election, in 2008, and the Florida election, in 2000, were so close as to possibly be affected by fraud (and, in one case, probably were), I'd say it's worth the effort.

I don't disagree that striving to reduce further the already negligible fraud is a valuable goal. However, if the price to pay for that is disenfranchising legitimate voters, then it's not a solution.


Who's been disenfranchised?
How many voters were disenfranchised?

The current estimates puts them on the 700,000+ numbers. Under the current law, today, those people could not vote, even though they're legitimate voters.

[Wild Cobra]

Oh I care. I would love to see ways to reduce that 0.008% even closer to zero that doesn't involve disenfranchising legitimate voters.

Nobody has such a proposal though.
I see...

First you claim there are no cases, then you dismiss the cases that are found by percentage.

I don't know the actual statistics, but it is believed by many, including myself, that there is generally around 1000 times more of such behavior not spotted for every incident spotted.

[ChumpDumper]

I see...

First you claim there are no cases, then you dismiss the cases that are found by percentage.

I don't know the actual statistics, but it is believed by many, including myself, that there is generally around 1000 times more of such behavior not spotted for every incident spotted.Existing procedures could easily end all the "fraud" listed in the OP -- e.g., if the "watchdog" idiots checked the rolls for ineligible voters before the election.

lol 1000 times

[George Gervin's Afro]

So, make it so they will be eligible to vote when they try.

You act as though the shortcoming are insurmountable.


I would advocate that.


Seeing as how the Minnesota election, in 2008, and the Florida election, in 2000, were so close as to possibly be affected by fraud (and, in one case, probably were), I'd say it's worth the effort.


Who's been disenfranchised?


How many voters were disenfranchised?


Hey yoni... I am still waiting for that ONE person to come forward and say someone voted using their name....

[DMX7]

WC: Voter fraud statistics are limited only by your imagination.

[boutons_deux]

How the GOP Plans to Block the Black Vote

I can’t identify too many threads that connect every single election I’ve ever covered. But one feature has been a constant through every election I’ve seen up close, from New York City Council elections to mayor to governor to senator to president: efforts to suppress the black vote, and, often enough, the Latino vote. I’ve seen the fliers, heard the robocalls, been at the polling places with the mysterious malfunctioning machines. No one ever knows exactly who does these things, and yet everyone generally knows. Republicans. And now we may be getting some proof. Former Florida GOP chairman Jim Greer said for the first time on national television Thursday—to Al Sharpton, no less!—that his party is up to its neck in denying citizens the right to vote.

Greer—and I should say up front he’s under indictment; more on that later—was deposed by lawyers for the state GOP in late May for a civil case that will likely be heard after his criminal trial. He was specific. At a December 2009 meeting, “the political consultants and staff were talking about voter suppression and keeping blacks from voting.” They also discussed—and this is lovely—how “minority-outreach programs were not fit for the Republican Party.” But with Sharpton, he really cut loose: “There’s no doubt that what the Republican-led legislature in Florida and Governor Scott are trying to do is make sure the Republican Party has an advantage in this upcoming election by reducing early voting and putting roadblocks up for potential voters, Latinos, African-Americans to register and then to exercise their right to vote. There’s no doubt. I was in the room. It’s part of the strategy.”

He also shot down the rationale for the new Florida law, this ginned-up “voter fraud” business: “In three and a half years as chairman in Florida, I never had one meeting where voter fraud was discussed as a real issue effecting elections. Never one time...It’s a marketing tool. That’s clearly what it is. There’s no validity to it. We never had issues with it. The main purpose behind it is to make sure that what happened in 2008 never happens again.”

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/08/13/michael-tomasky-on-how-the-gop-plans-to-block-the-black-vote.html?utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&utm_campaign=cheatsheet_morning&cid=newsletter%3Bemail%3Bcheatsheet_morning&utm_term=Cheat%20Sheet

[mercos]

The "voter fraud" issue is just a way for the GOP to counter Obama's vastly superior ground game. They realized early on it was going to be a tough election for them because they had a weak field of candidates.

[Winehole23]

http://votingrights.news21.com/article/election-fraud/

[CosmicCowboy]

Meh.

Democrats assertion that their voters are too stupid or lazy to get a free ID is fucking hilarious...

[ChumpDumper]

Meh, Republicans' assertion that there is massive voter fraud is fucking hilarious.

[mavs>spurs]

illegals vote we already know this

2JK7hkQzIxo

[ElNono]

I personally don't have a problem with ID laws if enacted well in advance of elections, they're well publicized to let citizens know about the requirements, and there's a concerted effort from government to ensure all citizens have access to the required documentation, whatever that might be.

Obviously, the followup is decrying "ID fraud!", but oh well...

[RandomGuy]

And, I'm called a partisan hack.

For the second time, in just over a decade, Democrats are suing the a State to suppress military votes and this is what you raise in comparison? :lmao

Besides, people who need to be called before they cast their vote should just stay home...they haven't been paying attention to the issues.

Yes. You are a fucking hack of the worst order.

You believe and argue anything on an almost purely emotional basis, like all conservative hacks who couldn't think their way out of a paper bag.

You pull up bullshit like this, as if one fucking pissant instance of voter fraud is worth putting up barriers to millions of legitimate voters, whose only crime is to have the nerve to vote for the party that you don't support.

You fucking hypocritical, self-serving, dishonest, sack of shit.

[RandomGuy]

I personally don't have a problem with ID laws if enacted well in advance of elections, they're well publicized to let citizens know about the requirements, and there's a concerted effort from government to ensure all citizens have access to the required documentation, whatever that might be.

Obviously, the followup is decrying "ID fraud!", but oh well...

I have little problem with voter ID per se.

The thing that fucking enrages me to no end is that the people and Republican politicians pushign this do not give a flying shit about about voter fraud.

They only care about surpressing Democratic voters.

Anybody who thinks otherwise is a dupe of the lowest order.

It is a shitty, cynical political manuever, period.

[RandomGuy]

Meh.

Democrats assertion that their voters are too stupid or lazy to get a free ID is fucking hilarious...

Another strawman and oversimplification.

The worst kind of intellectual rot, but par for the course in conservative thinking.

Do you have anything better?

[mavs>spurs]

^well there is proof that illegals vote so no matter what you think i'm glad they are doing it. i still maintain that i've never known anyone in my life who did not have a valid form of ID. you need one to open a bank account, write a check, get welfare, drive, travel, or do pretty much anything, so why is it suddenly a big deal if you need one to vote? it makes sense for obvious reasons.

[mavs>spurs]

and for you leftists, going around to the ghettos on election day and offering people who don't know what's going on free popeyes in exchange for their vote is wrong.

[RandomGuy]

^well there is proof that illegals vote so no matter what you think i'm glad they are doing it. i still maintain that i've never known anyone in my life who did not have a valid form of ID. you need one to open a bank account, write a check, get welfare, drive, travel, or do pretty much anything, so why is it suddenly a big deal if you need one to vote? it makes sense for obvious reasons.

I do not give a shit if a few illegal immigrants MIGHT vote in any given election.

This is somethign with a huge cost and next to no benefit.

It only makes sense if you are a dumb shit who is more worried about "illegals" than actually spending resources on real problems.

This is a not a serious problem by any stretch of the imagination, but it has a cynically manufactured "solution" that shockingly benefits one party over another.

I don't disagree with the fact that ants tend to get into food at picnics, but I am not tossing tactical nukes on anthills to solve it.

Yes, some tiny minority of illegal immigrants vote. WHO FUCKING CARES?

Yes, some tiny minority of felons vote. WHO FUCKING CARES?

WE ALREADY HAVE LAWS AGAINST VOTER FRAUD.

The cost is far more than any real benefit.

Sorry you have gotten suckered by the assholes who are using you to make themselves stronger politically.

Or maybe you like being a dupe... I dunno.

[mavs>spurs]

WE ALREADY HAVE LAWS AGAINST VOTER FRAUD.

so stop yelling and let's enforce them.

the problem is, people tend to be out of touch with the illegal immigrant problem. we heard the amnesty for young illegals would only affect 800,000. it's already in the millions of applications.

if you're not responsible enough to have a valid form of ID, then you shouldn't be allowed to vote. dems just want to allow illegals to vote as well as hitting up the ghettos and barrios on election day to offer free popeyes and tacos coupons in exchange for a vote. i say fuck that.

[DMX7]

Popeye's and taco coupons? Could you be any more racist?

[mavs>spurs]

dude, they've been sending out assholes into the ghettos with voter registration ballots and coercing people who don't know what the hell is going on for some time now. if you have to have your hand held and lead to the polls, you shouldn't be voting anyway. i say go ahead with the plan, i've still yet to meet a single person who didn't have an ID.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

dude, they've been sending out assholes into the ghettos with voter registration ballots and coercing people who don't know what the hell is going on for some time now. if you have to have your hand held and lead to the polls, you shouldn't be voting anyway. i say go ahead with the plan, i've still yet to meet a single person who didn't have an ID.

This statement is so based on stupidity it's not even funny.

First of all there are clear statistics of people that do not have IDs. Your personal anecdotes do not paint the picture of demographics as a whole. For example, there are many on the East Coast that do not have driver's licenses because they do not need one.

this should be obvious. The percentage of minorities that do not have IDs is more than double that of whites. It's not exactly a new concept that the GOP discourages minorities from voting.

Further, how many times have you gone into the ballot box and voted for someone with no idea who they are except that their column had 'Republican' on it?

There is more than one way to hold a hand.

[Clipper Nation]

The thing that fucking enrages me to no end is that the people and Republican politicians pushign this do not give a flying shit about about voter fraud.

They only care about surpressing Democratic voters.
You're completely right... hell, just look at how they've tried to screw over the Ron Paul wing of their own party, tbh... so why would we expect the GOP to actually care about voter fraud?

That being said, it's the same line of thinking as why the Democrats want amnesty.... as part of their pandering platform, they love to kiss the asses of everyone who crosses the border illegally, hoping they'll vote Democrat with the thought that it's the only way they'll get to stay here, tbh...

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You're completely right... hell, just look at how they've tried to screw over the Ron Paul wing of their own party, tbh... so why would we expect the GOP to actually care about voter fraud?

That being said, it's the same line of thinking as why the Democrats want amnesty.... as part of their pandering platform, they love to kiss the asses of everyone who crosses the border illegally, hoping they'll vote Democrat with the thought that it's the only way they'll get to stay here, tbh...

Well that and a large portion of the democratic base is latin american. Of course they want to let their friends and families off the hook.

do the amnesty provisions even grant suffrage?

[Wild Cobra]

Meh.

Democrats assertion that their voters are too stupid or lazy to get a free ID is fucking hilarious...
Is it?

Democrats love the stupid voters. I mean, who else is stupid enough to vote for them?

[ElNono]

Is it?

Democrats love the stupid voters. I mean, who else is stupid enough to vote for them?

Didn't you say you voted Democrat in the past?

[Wild Cobra]

I personally don't have a problem with ID laws if enacted well in advance of elections, they're well publicized to let citizens know about the requirements, and there's a concerted effort from government to ensure all citizens have access to the required documentation, whatever that might be.

Obviously, the followup is decrying "ID fraud!", but oh well...
I agree. This is a cost of government that needs to be used so we can have a better handle of voting, and lay to rest the idea of fraud. At no time, should it be done in a way that keeps legal voters from voting. Ease into such a system over a few years before locking it in place.

[mavs>spurs]

This statement is so based on stupidity it's not even funny.

First of all there are clear statistics of people that do not have IDs. Your personal anecdotes do not paint the picture of demographics as a whole. For example, there are many on the East Coast that do not have driver's licenses because they do not need one.

this should be obvious. The percentage of minorities that do not have IDs is more than double that of whites. It's not exactly a new concept that the GOP discourages minorities from voting.

Further, how many times have you gone into the ballot box and voted for someone with no idea who they are except that their column had 'Republican' on it?

There is more than one way to hold a hand.

wake up fuckface, they still need one to write a check or do anything else.

ive said it once and i maintain, if you need some leftist operative to come into your hood/barrio and remind you that it's election time and hand you a ballot then you don't need to be voting in the first place. anyone who can take the minimal time and responsibility to register is fully capable of acquiring an ID in the same way. you can get one that's not even a valid driver's license just made to look like one and it will do the same thing.

[Wild Cobra]

wake up fuckface, they still need one to write a check or do anything else.

ive said it once and i maintain, if you need some leftist operative to come into your hood/barrio and remind you that it's election time and hand you a ballot then you don't need to be voting in the first place. anyone who can take the minimal time and responsibility to register is fully capable of acquiring an ID in the same way. you can get one that's not even a valid driver's license just made to look like one and it will do the same thing.
-word-

[boutons_deux]

In This Great Country Of Ours, there 10Ms of (poor) people who lives on the margins. Obviously the right wing assholes here don't know them, and think they should should be denied the vote.

And another 18% that do still use non-traditional banking services like pawn shops and payday lenders, according to FDIC survey.

17 million Americans have no bank account

That was 3 years ago of Banksters Great Depression. Very probably a few M more are living week to week with no need to waste dollars on bank fees.

[Wild Cobra]

How many of those 17 million are children?

Oh...

I don't have a bank account either. I do have a 401K and credit union account.

[ChumpDumper]

How many of those 17 million are children?You mean how many children answered the survey about banking?

I'm going to say zero.


I don't have a bank account either. I do have a 401K and credit union account.Disingenuous as always.

[mavs>spurs]

In This Great Country Of Ours, there 10Ms of (poor) people who lives on the margins. Obviously the right wing assholes here don't know them, and think they should should be denied the vote.

And another 18% that do still use non-traditional banking services like pawn shops and payday lenders, according to FDIC survey.

17 million Americans have no bank account

That was 3 years ago of Banksters Great Depression. Very probably a few M more are living week to week with no need to waste dollars on bank fees.

You need an ID to cash a check at a pawn shop.

[ElNono]

You need an ID to cash a check at a pawn shop.

That's cool, but if you didn't know that, you need to go get an ID and come back days/weeks later, then cash the check. If you go vote and you don't know that you needed an ID, you're screwed.

That's why implementation of this thing is critical and it's just not serious to pass legislation 6 months away from the election, and don't bother telling citizens about it or help them get their documents ready for the election.

BTW, I didn't know you needed an ID for that, so thanks for the info!

[mavs>spurs]

Sounds like Obama needs to get to work educating his fanbase ahead of time then with some cool new ads. Again, if you're too stupid to think that you might need to verify who you are to vote then you probably still shouldn't be voting.

[ElNono]

Sounds like Obama needs to get to work educating his fanbase ahead of time then with some cool new ads. Again, if you're too stupid to think that you might need to verify who you are to vote then you probably still shouldn't be voting.

Why? You already identified when you registered to vote. If you're changing the rules, then of course you need to notify the citizens, team red or team blue.

I would actually argue that the GOP push for voter ID laws as an affront to fraud would be much more believable if they started to push for it next January, which gives almost two years until Congressional elections. But the topic only seems to come up a few months before the election.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I find it funny that someone who's paranoid about America becoming a police state is very enthusiastic about everyone needing an ID to vote.

Before anyone turns that comment into a strawman argument that I'm OK with voter fraud, I'm fine with a mandated ID requirement as long as there's a way to get the ID for free. People having to pay to vote is something no one should want (even though it's obviously something Republicans want).

[FuzzyLumpkins]

wake up fuckface, they still need one to write a check or do anything else.

ive said it once and i maintain, if you need some leftist operative to come into your hood/barrio and remind you that it's election time and hand you a ballot then you don't need to be voting in the first place. anyone who can take the minimal time and responsibility to register is fully capable of acquiring an ID in the same way. you can get one that's not even a valid driver's license just made to look like one and it will do the same thing.

And if you need a column header to figure out what person to vote for then you don't need to be voting in the first place. Do you vote by column and not by candidate?

The license holder demographics are clear as are the 'efficiacy' of the various bills on preventing 'fraud.'

You can try to frame it however you like but at the end of the day:

A) Legal minorities without IDs is more than twice the rate of whites.
B) Voter fraud consists of .0008% of all votes taken most of which the proposed bills would not stop.

These laws serve to prevent minorities and the poor from voting and do essentially nothing for supposed 'fraud.'

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

And yes, anyone acting like voter fraud is a huge problem in this country is fuckin hilarious.

[mavs>spurs]

You've made that stupid assertion twice and there was a reason I just ignored it the first time. No i don't vote straight ticket, I'm not a fucking retard like 90% of the liberal base. You vote on the same side as all the minorities and retards, keep that in mind.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You've made that stupid assertion twice and there was a reason I just ignored it the first time. No i don't vote straight ticket, I'm not a fucking retard like 90% of the liberal base. You vote on the same side as all the minorities and retards, keep that in mind.

:cry:

Thou protest too much

So you don't think 'minorities and retards' should be able to vote?

[ElNono]

And yes, anyone acting like voter fraud is a huge problem in this country is fuckin hilarious.

I would have to look it up, but odds are ID forgery is just as big or bigger problem... which really puts the 'solution' in perspective...

[mavs>spurs]

And yes, anyone acting like voter fraud is a huge problem in this country is fuckin hilarious.

lol already forgot about ACORN

[mavs>spurs]

:cry:

Thou protest too much

So you don't think 'minorities and retards' should be able to vote?

I think that you should be responsible in order to vote, the only people affected by this are those that liberals come into their neighborhoods and hand out ballots. If you need your hand held to vote, then you probably shouldn't be voting.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I think that you should be responsible in order to vote, the only people affected by this are those that liberals come into their neighborhoods and hand out ballots. If you need your hand held to vote, then you probably shouldn't be voting.

You didn't answer the question. It's very telling to people when you do not and instead answer a different question.

Let's try again:

So you don't think 'minorities and retards' should be able to vote?

[mavs>spurs]

^if they're responsible minorities should vote of course. not the ones who need to be lead to the water in order to drink though.

on the flip side, there are hardcore bubbas who dont have any business voting either. back when people were informed about who they voted for this country was so much better off.

[Wild Cobra]

You need an ID to cash a check at a pawn shop.
I think he has a hard time wrapping his mind around simple facts like that. He just believes what ever the most liberal media outlets tell him to believe.

[ChumpDumper]

lol already forgot about ACORNSo tell us how the fraudulent registrations collected by ACORN were discovered.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

^if they're responsible minorities should vote of course. not the ones who need to be lead to the water in order to drink though.

on the flip side, there are hardcore bubbas who dont have any business voting either. back when people were informed about who they voted for this country was so much better off.

So if someone else tells you to go vote then you shouldn't be able to vote?

This is one stupid justification. I am also guessing that only applies to 'minorities and retards.'

[FuzzyLumpkins]

back when people were informed about who they voted for this country was so much better off.

I had to pull this one out. what era do you have in mind exactly when you say this.

You can throw out all of 1776-1900. The electorate did not even know that FDR had polio his entire administration.

But exactly when is this golden age of electorate enlightenment?

[boutons_deux]

Rick Scott Vows New Voter Purge In Florida Before Election

Gov. Rick Scott’s (R-FL) handpicked Secretary of State Ken Detzner announced on Tuesday that the administration will soon begin another voter purge to remove “ineligible” voters from the rolls before the November 6 election. Florida county election supervisors remain weary of the effort, however, telling ThinkProgress that they may not have enough time to implement the purge.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/08/15/691171/rick-scott-administration-new-voter-purge-florida/

Repugs are REALLY worried that Ryan gave Gecko NO BOUNCE in the polls. They can only win with the 1%'s $Bs buying the WH by SwiftBoating Barry and Dems, while LYING about R&R's programs, and Dem voter disenfranchisement.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

lol already forgot about ACORN
How many fraudulent votes were cast as a result of ACORN?

The fact your example of voter fraud was something that was discovered by internal auditors and taken care of BEFORE the elections happened doesn't present much of a case that voter fraud is a problem.

[velik_m]

www.nytimes.com/2012/08/15/opinion/overt-discrimination-in-ohio.html

[ElNono]

Pennsylvania voter ID law upheld by judge (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-pa-voter-id-20120816,0,2346712.story)

[boutons_deux]

Election-fraud not as common as recent voter ID laws suggest

In an exhaustive public records search, News21 reporters sent thousands of requests to elections officers in all 50 states, asking for every case of fraudulent activity including registration fraud, absentee ballot fraud, vote buying, false election counts, campaign fraud, casting an ineligible vote, voting twice, voter impersonation fraud and intimidation.

Analysis of the resulting comprehensive News21 election fraud database turned up 10 cases of voter impersonation. With 146 million registered voters in the United States during that time, those 10 cases represent one out of about every 15 million prospective voters.

“Voter fraud at the polls is an insignificant aspect of American elections,” said elections expert David Schultz, professor of public policy at Hamline University School of Business in St. Paul, Minn.

“There is absolutely no evidence that (voter impersonation fraud) has affected the outcome of any election in the United States, at least any recent election in the United States,” Schultz said.

The News21 analysis of its election fraud database shows:

In-person voter-impersonation fraud is rare. The database shows 207 cases of other types of fraud for every case of voter impersonation.

“The fraud that matters is the fraud that is organized. That's why voter impersonation is practically non-existent because it is difficult to do and it is difficult to pull people into conspiracies to do it,” said Lorraine Minnite, professor of public policy and administration at Rutgers University.

There is more fraud in absentee ballots and voter registration than any other categories. The analysis shows 491 cases of absentee ballot fraud and 400 cases of registration fraud. A required photo ID at the polls would not have prevented these cases.

“The one issue I think is potentially important, though more or less ignored, is the overuse of absentee balloting, which provides far more opportunity for fraud and intimidation than on-site voter fraud,” said Daniel Lowenstein, a UCLA School of Law professor.

Of reported election-fraud allegations in the database whose resolution could be determined, 46 percent resulted in acquittals, dropped charges or decisions not to bring charges.

Minnite says prosecutions are rare. “You have to be able to show that people knew what they were doing and they knew it was wrong and they did it anyway,” she said. “It may be in the end they (prosecutors) can't really show that the people who have cast technically illegal ballots did it on purpose.”

Felons or noncitizens sometimes register to vote or cast votes because they are confused about their eligibility. The database shows 74 cases of felons voting and 56 cases of noncitizens voting.

Voters make a lot of mistakes, from accidentally voting twice to voting in the wrong precinct.

Election officials make a lot mistakes, from clerical errors — giving voters ballots when they’ve already voted — to election workers confused about voters’ eligibility requirements.


www.iwatchnews.org/2012/08/13/10662/election-fraud-not-common-recent-voter-id-laws-suggest

Even the PA judge who allowed the Repug PA voter disenfranchisement law stand said the PA Repugs presented NO EVIDENCE of voter fraud. :lol

Yoni and similar ilk, take your bitch slappings like a whiny liar.

[boutons_deux]

Ohio GOP Election Board Member: Our Voting Process Shouldn’t Accommodate Black Voters

Ohio Secretary of State Jon Husted’s recent decision to prohibit early voting on nights and weekends in all districts has many concerned about the effect on voter turnout in the state, particularly among low-income and minority communities. But one Republican Party chairman is content to suppress votes among this vulnerable demographic. Doug Preisse, chairman of the Republican Party in Franklin County, which contains the city of Columbus, admitted in an email to the Columbus Dispatch that black voters would now have a more difficult time voting:

I guess I really actually feel we shouldn’t contort the voting process to accommodate the urban — read African-American — voter-turnout machine. Let’s be fair and reasonable.

http://thinkprogress.org/election/2012/08/19/711551/gop-election-board-member-admits-he-canceled-weekend-voting-in-ohio-to-suppress-the-black-vote/

:lol

[boutons_deux]

Ohio Secretary Of State Removes Democratic Members Of Election Board For Supporting Weekend Voting

In a dramatic move, Ohio Secretary of State John Husted immediately suspended two Democrats on a county election board after they voted to allow weekend voting.

Earlier, Husted issued a directive canceling weekend voting statewide. In 2008, Ohio offered early voting on the weekends and thousands of voters cast their ballot during that time.

Husted issued an ultimatum to Dennis Lieberman and Tom Ritchie Sr., members of the Montgomery County Eleciton Board, to withdraw their resolution to maintain weekend hours or face suspension. The Dayton Daily News has more:

But in their afternoon meeting, Lieberman, an attorney and former county Democratic Party chair, refused to withdraw his motion, arguing both that his motion did not violate the directive, and that it was best for local voters. He acknowledged that the move could cost him his BOE job.

“I believe that this is so critical to our freedom in America, and to individual rights to vote, that I am doing what I think is right, and I cannot vote to rescind this motion,” Lieberman said. “In 10 years, I’ve never received a threat that if I don’t do what they want me to do, I could be fired. I find this reprehensible.”

The Obama campaign has filed a law suit in federal court to restore weekend voting.

http://thinkprogress.org/election/2012/08/18/710381/ohio-secretary-of-state-removes-democratic-members-of-election-board-for-supporting-weekend-voting/

Repug Blackwell stole OH for dubya in 2004.

[boutons_deux]

Going Undercover at the GOP's Voter Vigilante Project to Disrupt the Nov. Election

Voting Vigilante

True the Vote is a voting vigilante group that never should have grown past its Texas cowboy-meets-Tea Party justice roots. Its top leaders have a jaunty, string ‘em up, guilty-until-proven-innocent mindset. They represent the most extreme views on the Right when it comes to voting—that the process is filled with corruption that is bound to be exploited by local political bosses and machines, which, of course, are Democratic. Where liberals see that a third of all eligible voters in America do not vote and want to make the process more accessible, the Right believes to do so would mean the end of America as they know it. They think it’s patriotic to be self-appointed judges, juries and if necessary, citizen police, to stop what they believe is rampant illegal voting. This purview goes far beyond today’s fights over voter ID.

http://www.alternet.org/print/news-amp-politics/going-undercover-gops-voter-vigilante-project-disrupt-nov-election

[Winehole23]

interesting bloggy thing

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Absentee ballots and undocumented citizenship



Joey Fishkin




[Updates below.] Today a state trial court in Pennsylvania refused to enjoin (http://media.philly.com/documents/CMW330MD2012ApplewhiteDetermPrelimInj_081512.pdf) that state’s new voter ID law. Barring something very unexpected, Pennsylvania voters will not be able to cast ballots on election day this November unless they show a government-issued ID with a photo and a (future) expiration date. The ruling is a huge disappointment to the civil rights groups challenging the statute, in part because in this case, unlike in the federal case (http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-21.ZS.html/) from Indiana that the Supreme Court decided in 2008, the plaintiffs came prepared: they brought affidavits and testimony from numerous individual voters, such as lead plaintiffs Viviette Applewhite and Wilola Lee, who have voted for decades but will not be able to satisfy the requirements of the new law because they have no way to obtain the documents (http://www.aclupa.org/legal/legaldocket/applewhiteetalvcommonwealt/voteridclients.htm) (birth certificate, etc) that Pennsylvania requires before it will issue a driver’s license. With evidence like that, why were the plaintiffs unable to obtain their preliminary injunction? One important factor, threaded through the opinion, was the possibility that most of the plaintiffs could in fact cast absentee ballots.

Absentee ballots have become something of an embarrassment for advocates on both sides of the voter ID debate, for very different reasons. Republican advocates of voter ID laws argue that the laws are needed to prevent fraud. But they concede, and all sides agree, that impersonation fraud at the polls—the only kind of fraud that voter ID laws would reduce—is incredibly rare in comparison to absentee ballot fraud, which crops up regularly in local election scandals (http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/07/31/2923691/miami-dade-absentee-ballot-fraud.html) around the country. The embarrassment arises because the last thing these Republican advocates want is new anti-fraud measures that would make absentee ballots harder for their own voters to cast. (They perceive that those who will be blocked by voter ID laws are disproportionately Democrats (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuOT1bRYdK8) while absentee voters are more likely on their side.) The game is the same one we see here in Texas, where the Republican-dominated legislature passed a new, urgent voter ID law under which state-issued student IDs do not count, but concealed handgun permits do count. Or take Ohio, where Republican officials are apparently making sure there will be early voting in the evening and on weekends in Republican-dominated suburbs, but not in Democratic cities like Cincinnati or Cleveland (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/15/opinion/overt-discrimination-in-ohio.html). [*This has changed; see update below.] In other words, for partisans, the game here is all about partisan skew. The notable lack of Republican zeal for applying the same new standards to absentee ballots that they are imposing on in-person voting makes the game awfully obvious, which is why absentee ballots are an embarrassment.

For wholly different reasons, absentee ballots are also becoming something of an embarrassment for the civil rights groups and Democrats who oppose voter ID. The plaintiffs in Applewhite v. Pennsylvania face large, and in some cases frankly insurmountable, burdens that prevent them from obtaining the documents they need to get a Pennsylvania driver’s license. But almost all of these voters, the judge noted repeatedly, fall within one or more of the groups Pennsylvania law allows to cast an absentee ballot instead. As for the rest, there just aren’t that many of them, and the judge (in perhaps the most controversial part of the opinion) expressed sufficient confidence that Pennsylvania could get IDs to these individuals before the election under a special new program to justify not enjoining the law. The reasoning about absentee ballots draws on a brief, elliptical sentence in the Supreme Court’s Indiana voter ID case: “[A]lthough it may not be a completely acceptable alternative, the elderly in Indiana are able to vote absentee without presenting photo identification.” This sentence raises many questions. How would we decide whether the right to vote encompasses a right to vote in person, and not just by absentee ballot?

If we view voting essentially as an opportunity to add our chit to a tally, or to increase in a minuscule way the probability of victory of our chosen candidate, the absentee ballot alternative seems basically adequate. True, there are problems of timing: an in-person voter can vote on election day, whereas absentee ballots often must be sent considerably earlier (in Pennsylvania, you need to mail them about a week before the election since they must be received four days before election day to be counted). But this problem could be remedied by changing the law to accept absentee ballots postmarked by election day. With that change in place, voter ID opponents seem to have a problem. When one is trying to persuade a court that voters are being disenfranchised, it’s a tad inconvenient if actually they can cast ballots from home.

There can’t possibly be a right to cast a vote in person rather than by absentee ballot, full stop. If there were, then Oregon and Washington would be violating the rights of all their voters all the time. In those states, everybody is casting their ballot by mail; in that way everybody is equal. In contrast, where the state says to some of its citizens, “we do not trust you to vote in person; you will have to vote absentee or not at all,” the state is creating a second-class form of democratic citizenship. It is a form of citizenship that says you’re only allowed to come in through the back door.

One might call it “undocumented citizenship”: a limbo state in which a person is in fact a citizen, and is in no apparent danger of having that status questioned, but lacks the documents that would be her ticket to participate in the ordinary way—like everyone else—in the central ritual of our collective democratic life.

To appreciate why this matters, we need to understand voting as more than a means of affecting election outcomes. It is part of how the state enacts our inclusion as full and equal citizens. (http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1742642) There will be plenty said and written about the effect of the Pennsylvania law on the presidential race; social scientists and others will try to predict how many people will really be disenfranchised, and Republican and Democratic strategists will pore over the numbers. But something important is lost when we think about elections only in such instrumental terms.

The “undocumented citizens” are people like the plaintiffs in this suit (http://www.aclupa.org/legal/legaldocket/applewhiteetalvcommonwealt/voteridclients.htm) -- people like Wilola Lee, who has been trying for almost ten years to get a copy of her birth certificate, but whose birth state of Georgia claims to have no record of her birth and nothing for her. Or Gloria Cuttino, who cannot obtain her birth certificate from South Carolina without paying $100 for census records and then hiring a South Carolina attorney to petition a court there. Or Joyce Block, who cannot get a driver's license because her only record of her marriage (and name change) is a marriage certificate in Hebrew. Or Viviette Applewhite herself, now 93 and in a wheelchair, who testified that she once marched for voting rights with Martin Luther King, Jr. She has her birth certificate, along with a Medicare card, a Social Security card, and various other documents such as credit card statements and bills, like most of us do -- but she has no documents that the state will accept because she was born Viviette Brooks and has no record showing the change to Applewhite (which is the name on all her current documents and has been her name for much of her life). So she will not be able to vote in person in November.[*See update below.]

It ought to embarrass us all that so much of the legal, judicial, and popular conversation about photo IDs and voting is about which candidate will win, and so little of it is about the rights of people like these. The Pennsylvania court, like the Supreme Court, left open the possibility of future "as-applied" challenges to the law, but it remains to be seen whether such challenges will become a vehicle for vindicating the rights of enough people to make such litigation feasible. Because in truth, Viviette Applewhite, for all her forcefulness and resourcefulness, is unlikely to go hire her own lawyer just to win the right to vote at her regular polling place, along with everyone else, as their equal. She shouldn't have to.


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*Friday 8/17: Two late updates:

1) Under "heavy criticism," the Republican Secretary of State in Ohio has come out for uniform statewide early voting rules, so that there will be a "level playing field (http://communitypress.cincinnati.com/article/AB/20120815/NEWS/308150099/Husted-standardizes-Ohio-s-voting-hours)" from county to county in Ohio, rather than allowing more voting in the suburbs and less in the cities -- a situation that made the game awfully obvious. However, the new uniform rule will involve no weekend voting anywhere. Guess which party that will help.

2) Thursday afternoon the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation issued Viviette Applewhite an ID (http://mobile.philly.com/news/?wss=/philly/news/breaking/&id=166490216&viewAll=y), exercising its administrative discretion to relax certain requirements in her case. Applewhite's ACLU lawyer said in response that there are "thousands of Ms. Applewhites out there who still don't have ID. It would be nice if PennDot relaxed the rules for all of them." http://balkin.blogspot.com/2012/08/absentee-ballots-and-undocumented.html

[boutons_deux]

America, The World's Beacon of Democracy and Rights for All (a fucking myth)

[Winehole23]

you don't read a damn thing, do you?

[boutons_deux]

he's bitchin about America blocking legitimate peoples' right to vote, duh.

[Winehole23]

at least that's not a non-sequitur.

[boutons_deux]

right-wing/Repug voter disenfranchisement of poor, blacks, young/students, disabled belies America as The World Champion Democracy.

Other countries compete, and systematically get much higher voter turnouts. And make voting easier by having Sunday voting so there's no conflict with workdays.

Repug states are trying to limit or kill weekend voting as part of their disenfranchisement strategy.

[boutons_deux]

Proof, criminal, that there is Repug voter suppression

RNC to Open With Politician Who "Should Be in Jail"

"Tim Griffin should be in jail." That's the conclusion of civil rights attorney Robert F. Kennedy Jr. after going through the evidence I asked him to review.

But Griffin's not in jail: he's in Congress. And Tuesday, he'll be the first Congressman the Republicans have chosen to bring to their convention podium.

Predictably, I haven't seen one US press report noting that in 2007, Griffin resigned from the Justice Department in disgrace, ahead of what could have been (should have been), his indictment.

Kennedy thought a couple of other characters should join Griffin in the lockup: first, Griffin's boss, the man whom George W. Bush gave the nickname, "Turdblossom": Karl Rove.

And there's yet another odiferous blossom, Griffin's assistant at the time of the crime: Matt Rhoades. Rhoades isn't in jail either. He's the campaign director of presidential candidate Mitt Romney.

(Note: This story is based on the investigations in Palast's new book, "Billionaires & Ballot Bandits: How to Steal an Election in 9 Easy Steps" - with a forward by Kennedy and comics by Ted Rall.)

Kennedy had gone over the highly confidential emails we'd gotten from inside Republican National Committee headquarters in Washington. (How we got our hands on private emails from the top dogs in the Republican campaign, well, that's another story. I can say, they were sent directly from the computer of Griffin. Rove, a computer expert, is careful not to have his own.)

"What they did was absolutely illegal - and they knew it and they did it anyway," Kennedy told me.

What they did was called voter "caging." The RNC sent letters by the thousands to soldiers, first class, marked, "DO NOT FORWARD." When the letters were returned undelivered, the Republicans planned to use these "caged" envelopes as evidence the voters were "fraudulent" - then challenge their ballot.

A soldier mailing in his or her vote from Iraq would have that ballot disqualified - and the soldier wouldn't even know it.

That's not just sick, it's a crime, a violation of the Voting Rights Act drafted by Kennedy's late father. And it was a crime because of whom the RNC caging crew attacked: not just any soldiers, but soldiers of color.

Running a vote-challenge operation based on racial profiling is a go-to-jail felony.

http://truth-out.org/news/item/11158-rnc-opens-with-politician-who-should-be-in-jail

[boutons_deux]

Rick Scott’s Voter Registration Suppression Law Is Dead

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/rickscott2-e1344895990397.jpg

Three months after a federal judge blocked much of Florida’s year-old voter suppression law as an unconstitutional infringement on speech and voting rights, the same judge agreed Tuesday to permanently remove the restrictions on voter registration drives, pending final confirmation that a federal appeals court has dismissed the case. In a settlement, the civil rights groups challenging the law and the state agreed not to appeal the case.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/08/29/769031/rick-scott-voter-registration-suppression-law-dead/