Kobe: Luckiest NBA player or is the other way around?

[ChrisRichards]

I'm not going to discredit Kobe. He's had a spectacular NBA career. Winning 5 NBA championships, 7 NBA Finals appearances, 2 Finals MVP and multiple scoring records. He's had it all tbh.


Kobe's lucky no doubt. Playing for a franchise known to pull the biggest tails with so little effort.

I'll play devils advocate here for a minute for arguments sake. People say he's been lucky to play with these caliber of NBA players.

What if its the other way around?


Shaq

Shaq was great in Orlando. With a perennial NBA All Star/All NBA player like Hardaway, Shaq still failed to win an NBA championship there. He went to LA and immediately found success. His first NBA championship was all his doing but the 2nd, 3rd as Kobe progressed exponentially, I think Kobe had equal contribution for the most part, again for arguments sake, I think Kobe's ability to play offensive closer, distributor and defensive stopper were huge reasons why Shaq has 3 titles instead of just one. Shaw was able to squeeze one more championship outside Kobe, true, but Kobe got two and he may very well get another one at age 35. Crazy!


Gasol and Odom

Gasol has been a certified pussy all his life. Owner of 0-12 playoff series, he quickly got a taste of NBA championship in his first NBA season with Kobe. The next two seasons where glorious as Gasol became an integral part of a back to back championship team, something Duncan has never experienced. The same can be said for Odom who has underachieved throughout his career as a Clipper. He was good in Miami but nothing newsworthy. In LA with Kobe, he became a 6th man of the year and LA's 3rd best player. as Kobe's wingman, Odom thrived and found his niche in the game.


Artest

Ron went from almost losing his livelihood to an NBA champion. Kobe set up Ron's career tbh by putting him in that Game 7 secnario against Boston in 2010.


Fisher

Kobe has never won without Fisher and as of last season, Fisher came actually close to winning without Kobe. Now it seems like Fishers playing days are over and Kobe's chances of winning his 6th ring has spiked to unreal levels. Again, another testament to Kobe's ability to bring the best out og any player and turn them into a winner.


Nash

TBD. But Nash has never sniffed an NBA Finals appearance. Now he gets his chance and possibly win a championship ring.

Dwight

TBD. All I know is the last time Dwight went to the Finals, Kobe handed his ass over to him. Eversince then, Dwight has been irrelevant. Isn't it weird that his chances are now better than ever now that he's playing with...Kobe? I mean seriously, think about this for a sec. Dwight's championship hopes have increased because of Kobe.


I hate to look at it this way but It really looks like Kobe make's the most of the talent that he's surrounded with. Plenty of other superstars have had great rosters but weren't able to produce similar results for their franchise so it's a testament to how well Kobe has been able to exploit his situation.

[djohn2oo8]

:lol

[Venti Quattro]

Kobe's immense luck during his career has been aided mostly by the Laker mystique. He put in the hard work, and he's being rewarded in leaps and bounds

[Medvedenko]

Great thread. Kudos.

[midnightpulp]

Luckiest NBA player post merger. No other superstar has been constantly surrounded by as much world class talent (especially in the form of big men) as Kobe Bryant. Faggot Kobe fans won't admit this, of course, but if anything, it illustrates the Lakers' commitment to winning, which is something to be celebrated. But Kobefan is too concerned over his individual legacy to acknowledge the truth. Kobe sticks with Charlotte, it's doubtful he has any championships.

I'd shit myself in joy if Duncan got a constant stream of top tier perimeter players through free agency or lopsided trades. Not that Manu and Parker aren't good players, but if we were to draw a parallel with the kind of help Kobe receives regularly, Duncan would've played with various cores consisting of talent on the level of Dwyane Wade, prime McGrady, and the like.

[Clipper Nation]

Depends on whether Kobrick's in his :cry "Somebody please carry me!" :cry mode, or his :cry "Ship his ass out or trade me instead!" :cry mode, tbh....

[Venti Quattro]

Kobe took full advantage of what he was given and turned it into something meaningful. It's all about carpe diem. How many superstars wasted their primes by being lazy, out of shape, fat asses, too busy to care about practice, having the most inept front offices, etc.

It's like LeBron. He had the opportunity to bolt to Miami and turn it into something meaningful. Oh yes he did.

[Lincoln]

Should just Merge and make super teams. What are the point of the other 20-25 teams every year? This isn't the NFL where small market teams or shit teams can rise to power fast.

[Venti Quattro]

Should just Merge and make super teams. What are the point of the other 20-25 teams every year? This isn't the NFL where small market teams or shit teams can rise to power fast.

It's still all about the money. But they need to contract or move some teams that are hemmorhaging money.

[Lincoln]

Realistically, I don't see the Timbereolves, Bobcats, blazers, rockets, hornets, wizards, 76ers, magic, rockets, suns, warriors, pacers, pistons, hawks, kings, and nuggets winning it all in the next 5-10 years. Now a lot may change in that time frame depending on moves, trades, drafts etc but teams stuck in the shit hole stay in the shithole. That's 16 teams just off the top of my head and I'm sure there are more. Small market teams usually don't win in the NBA

NFL actually has parity as well as the MLB (who the fuck would've thought SF giants and saint Louis cardinals would be the last 2 world series champs). Condense the league.

[midnightpulp]

I mean, just look at this ridiculous lineup of bigs Kobe's had the fortune of playing with over his career:

Shaq: Always the best or 2nd best big in the league during his time with the Lakers. And the 3 peat version, his peak form, is arguably one of the top 3 best players in history.

Pau Gasol: Peak Gasol was the best overall low post power forward in the league. He's declined some since the Lakers last championship, but he's still easily one of the top ten overall big men in the league.

Lamar Odom: Not a true big and a something of a tweener, but a very good rebounder, passer, and a matchup nightmare at the 4, especially coming off the bench.

Andrew Bynum: The consensus 2nd best big man in the NBA, with arguably the best low post game in the league.

Dwight Howard: Since becoming a Laker, and with Hollywood and dipshit Lakers homers fueling the hype train, he's now the 2nd coming of Bill Russell, Shaq, and Kareem all rolled into one. In reality, he's probably the best center in the league, but if Howard somehow exceeds expectations and figures out how to actually play like a big man rather than a glorified Marcus Camby without the 15 foot jumpshot, you could be very well looking at the next great big. Big if, though.

No other player in the modern era can boast this level of supporting cast talent over their career.

[Venti Quattro]

Does the MLB really have parity when you have the Yankees as the poster boys of the league? Yeah you have Moneyball but the A's aren't worth shit in the bigger picture

[Lincoln]

MLB not so much as the NFL but even shit teams like the A's, Orioles, pirates, and nationals have come from nowhere to contend for a playoff/wildcard spot. In the NFL/MLB the wildcard or lowest seed actually has a chance to win the championship(look at the NY giants, cardinals etc). Do we honestly think an eigth seed in the NBA will win a championship?

I guess it depends on the sport as well. One individual player can change the outcome of a series in basketball but in the other sports, it's more unlikely.

[Juggity]

NFL actually has parity as well as the MLB (who the fuck would've thought SF giants and saint Louis cardinals would be the last 2 world series champs). Condense the league.

Do you think parity would increase the profitability of the NBA as a whole? One the one hand, established franchises like the Lakers and Celtics wouldn't have as great a chance to win and would probably stand to lose some of their huge fanbase/profits. On the other hand, all of the small market franchises would be much more likely to win, and could establish sizeable followings in smaller cities among previously unenthusiastic fanbases.

[Venti Quattro]

The onus is not only on the location of the franchises but also on the idiots that run them. Do you really see anyone trying to pull shit on San Antonio or Oklahoma City? Nope, because they have strong leadership

[midnightpulp]

MLB not so much as the NFL but even shit teams like the A's, Orioles, pirates, and nationals have come from nowhere to contend for a playoff/wildcard spot. In the NFL/MLB the wildcard or lowest seed actually has a chance to win the championship(look at the NY giants, cardinals etc). Do we honestly think an eigth seed in the NBA will win a championship?

I guess it depends on the sport as well. One individual player can change the outcome of a series in basketball but in the other sports, it's more unlikely.

This.

It's not too difficult to build an NBA championship caliber team if you have the available resources, but it's extremely difficult to do so in the MLB and NFL, since an individual player, or even two or three players, can't take over games like they can in the NBA (to some extent, pitchers can in baseball, but the difference is they don't play every game).

[LkrFan]

i'm sure Kobe is telling Lebron something to the effect of "not 2, not 3, not 4... just 1"

:lol

[LakasRool4eva]

when ur that good people want 2 play w/u..................straight up........................

[Clipper Nation]

Does the MLB really have parity when you have the Yankees as the poster boys of the league? Yeah you have Moneyball but the A's aren't worth shit in the bigger picture

Yeah, but the Yankees spent many prime years this past decade choking and are old now tbh....

[ambchang]

Can't really penalize a player because he had great teammates.

Are we going to discredit McHale as one of the best lowpost players because of Bird?

Are we going to discredit Pippen as one of the greatest wing defender and offensive facilitating forwards because of Jordan?

Are we going to discredit early years Magic because of Kareem's dominance?

So why are we going to discredit Kobe because of Shaq/Dwight?

[LkrFan]

Yeah, but the Yankees spent many prime years this past decade choking and are old now tbh....

Who has a better chance at doing thangs - the Clippers or afterbirth? :downspin:

[Clipper Nation]

I guess it depends on the sport as well. One individual player can change the outcome of a series in basketball but in the other sports, it's more unlikely.

In the NHL, one goalie on a hot streak changes everything and there's still parity tbh....

[Lincoln]

Nelson Cruz single handedly changed the 2011 ALCS by hitting 6 homers and 13 RBI's in 6 games. One player can change a series but it's more common in basketball than anyone else.

[Lincoln]

Just loo at 2011 dirk. Dallas beat teams they had no business beating (lakers, heat, maybe even OKC) but Dirk was on such a hot streak.

[Clipper Nation]

Nelson Cruz single handedly changed the 2011 ALCS by hitting 6 homers and 13 RBI's in 6 games. One player can change a series but it's more common in basketball than anyone else.

A goalie getting hot in the playoffs is pretty frequent though....

[DAF86]

I'm not reading the entire thread but has the name Phill Jackson been brought up?

[LkrFan]

Kobe, shortly after the trade was made official:

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/rickiroma1/lakersgonnalake.gif

:lol

[Koolaid_Man]

Luckiest NBA player post merger. No other superstar has been constantly surrounded by as much world class talent (especially in the form of big men) as Kobe Bryant. Faggot Kobe fans won't admit this, of course, but if anything, it illustrates the Lakers' commitment to winning, which is something to be celebrated. But Kobefan is too concerned over his individual legacy to acknowledge the truth. Kobe sticks with Charlotte, it's doubtful he has any championships.

I'd shit myself in joy if Duncan got a constant stream of top tier perimeter players through free agency or lopsided trades. Not that Manu and Parker aren't good players, but if we were to draw a parallel with the kind of help Kobe receives regularly, Duncan would've played with various cores consisting of talent on the level of Dwyane Wade, prime McGrady, and the like.

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.....:lmao

[DMC]

Matt Barnes, Sasha, Jordan... super talent.

[VBM]

The onus is not only on the location of the franchises but also on the idiots that run them. Do you really see anyone trying to pull shit on San Antonio or Oklahoma City? Nope, because they have strong leadership

:cry Spurs the only team Daryl Morey hoodwinked, tbh :cry

[HI-FI]

The onus is not only on the location of the franchises but also on the idiots that run them. Do you really see anyone trying to pull shit on San Antonio or Oklahoma City? Nope, because they have strong leadership

this is a fair point. i'm shocked at how bad some of the ownership is in the NBA. I suppose a lot of the owners don't care about winning and just want a cut of the big markets revenue.

best decision Kobe ever made, besides hiring his legal defense for his rape trial, was bitching out of the Charlotte draft and going to the premiere organization in the NBA. they've given him almost everything he could have asked for, I can't think of any other modern NBA player who has been as hooked up.

they should either contract some of the teams or finally introduce a hard cap, but I don't see either one happening.

[ChrisRichards]

If you're a Lakers fan, I think you'd have to appreciate how the Buss has fairly treated their best players throughout the years. Magic, Kobe, KAJ etc. If Shaq wasn't such a douchebag, I'm pretty sure he'll have a significant role with the Lakers right now.

[mavs>spurs]

The dude played Robin to one of the most dominant players of all time during a weak era of basketball. Of course they were going to dominate and win a few championships. It's actually a stain on both their careers that they didn't win more. He then continually gets gifted players through all sorts of bs (gasol trade, fisher using his daughter's illness as leverage, dwight howard deal, etc) and suddenly he's some self made badass? Look at how he looks out there with team usa, look at how he was exposed last year. Dude's just a talented chucker who's game only translates to wins whenever the talent level of his team is severely lopsided. When he had a shit team, he tanked on purpose and quit.

[Latarian Milton]

lucky and unlucky imho, he definitely got better luck than some other world-class talents like t-mac who played most of their careers on shitty teams, however, none of kobe's 5 rings is considered one that's primarily owed to his own efforts. he was named finals MVP of the last 2 but we all know he wouldn't have won shit w/o gasol playing alongside, he never won a ring as the only superstar on his team.

[mavs>spurs]

he never won a ring as the only superstar on his team.

unlike dirk

[KobeOwnsDuncan]

unlike dirk
By accident :lol

[Koolaid_Man]

Luckiest NBA player post merger. No other superstar has been constantly surrounded by as much world class talent (especially in the form of big men) as Kobe Bryant. Faggot Kobe fans won't admit this, of course, but if anything, it illustrates the Lakers' commitment to winning, which is something to be celebrated. But Kobefan is too concerned over his individual legacy to acknowledge the truth. Kobe sticks with Charlotte, it's doubtful he has any championships.

I'd shit myself in joy if Duncan got a constant stream of top tier perimeter players through free agency or lopsided trades. Not that Manu and Parker aren't good players, but if we were to draw a parallel with the kind of help Kobe receives regularly, Duncan would've played with various cores consisting of talent on the level of Dwyane Wade, prime McGrady, and the like.


there's a balancing act here...He's also played with with::lol

Kwame Brown
Chris Mihm
Brian Cook *aka* cookie
Slava Medvdenko
Samki Walker

[DazedAndConfused]

You're not going to win NBA championships in this era without a stacked team. People need to remember the '04 Pistons were a complete fluke as far as NBA history goes. Even the SA teams of old that won rings were pretty ridiculously stacked when you think about it.

There is a natural winning formula with Kobe Bryant. Surround him with an elite world class big man and he will win rings. Multiple rings. It just works. The Lakers FO would be stupid to not do everything in their power to keep this going.

Is he supposed to feel sorry and return his championship rings because he had too much help? Should Lebron return his after needing to join his super friends in Miami? Stop being ridiculous children.

[Kidd K]

Can't really penalize a player because he had great teammates.

Are we going to discredit McHale as one of the best lowpost players because of Bird?

Are we going to discredit Pippen as one of the greatest wing defender and offensive facilitating forwards because of Jordan?

Are we going to discredit early years Magic because of Kareem's dominance?

So why are we going to discredit Kobe because of Shaq/Dwight?

Technically. . .

McHale is often forgotten when the best PFs of all time are mentioned. Due to being overshadowed by Bird.

I don't believe Pippen's even in the top 25 all time for a very large percentage of people who actually include every player and not just "last 20-30 years + a few popular/well known greats" , because he played with Jordan and was overshadowed by him. This, despite Pippen having 6 rings as the 2nd best player on the Bulls.

Magic has 0 titles without Kareem tbh, and Kareem isn't considered GOAT instead of Jordan despite more MVPs, just as many rings, more points scored, etc. . . .because he played with Magic.

And of everyone you mentioned, Kobe's had a much larger variety of constant "help" than any of them.

Prime Shaq for 8 years. Eight!

Prime Gasol for 4 years and counting.

"dominant" Andrew Bynum for 3 years

Prime Dwight Howard now for likely the rest of his career.


Just for bigs alone, it's been rare he's ever not had one of or two of the best 1-3(ish) bigs in the NBA on his team at all times.


And we're not even mentioning the other guys. Karl Malone. Dennis Rodman. Glen Rice. Prime Robert Horry. Gary Payton. Prime Lamar Odom. Ron Artest. Steve Nash now. Prime Nick Van Exel. Prime Eddie Jones. Horace Grant. Caron Butler.

The amount of all star appearances between these guys. . .either while being, or within a few years before becoming a Laker is pretty staggering.


So can you really completely discount the help and not factor it in at all?

[racm]

Just shows how much a good coaching staff and FO can lift a superstar into ring territory, tbh

If Duncan had Mike Brown and Cavs era Danny Ferry he'd bolt.

[ChrisRichards]

And of everyone you mentioned, Kobe's had a much larger variety of constant "help" than any of them.

Prime Shaq for 8 years. Eight!

Prime Gasol for 4 years and counting.

"dominant" Andrew Bynum for 3 years

Prime Dwight Howard now for likely the rest of his career.


Just for bigs alone, it's been rare he's ever not had one of or two of the best 1-3(ish) bigs in the NBA on his team at all times.

My biggest issue with discrediting Kobe is with the exception of Shaq, none of them have won a title until they joined Kobe. So yes Kobe is unbelievably fortunate but there's one constant thing when these players join Kobe. They all became eventual champions and as soon they leave Kobe (again, exception of Shaq) most have become non factors or irrelevant (Fisher, Odom, Farmar, Vujacic etc)