Romney selecting Paul Ryan as is running mate

[MannyIsGod]

According to NBC. This helps Romney how?

[MannyIsGod]

So Romney goes from having no plan to hijacking someone else's horrible plan. Nice. Its always good when you select a running mate who has put forth actual details when you haven't. Makes you look strong! Especially when the details are economic bullshit.

Anyone here outside of Yoni and WC actually think Paul Ryan's plans are worth a damn?

[DMX7]

Paul Ryan is essentially a male version of Sarah Palin.

[scott]

With this move, I think Romney will have a lock over the Anglo Male Coservative vote.

[ElNono]

The WSJ was pushing (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443404004577577190186374230.html?m od=WSJ_Opinion_LEADTop) for that selection.

Analysis here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/10/us/politics/a-conservative-bid-for-paul-ryan-to-be-mitt-romneys-running-mate.html

[Galileo]

According to NBC. This helps Romney how?

He won't even win Wisconsin.

And Ryan's budget sucks, it us skewed in favor of the wealthy, it introduces "vouchers" for SS, and does not even balance the budget anyway mostly because it does not cut military spending.

PS - I live in Wisconsin.

[ElNono]

We'll see where this goes... it's fairly obvious ANY pick can curbstomp Joe in a debate... but looking at where Mitch is at, I thought he would go with a popular guy from a swing state (Ohio, Florida, possible NJ with Christie)...

This just solidifies the pandering to the right... oh, well... definitely no horse in this race for me...

[Clipper Nation]

:lol Willard
:lol Pretending his campaign is still relevant
:lol Asking Obama for :cry a truce on his tax cheating :cry

[baseline bum]

What in the fuck is Romney thinking here? He's already got the teabagger conservative vote since he's running against the nigLuck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers _Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_. Why would he not try to get someone to chip away centrists disillusioned with Obama?

[Clipper Nation]

What in the fuck is Romney thinking here?
Son, this is the same cat who spent the rest of the week reminding voters that he invented Obamacare and begging Obama to stop talking about his taxes.... Willard doesn't know a thing about conservatism, or apparently, running a campaign even with 8 years to prepare tbh....

[Jacob1983]

Ryan's plan to fix/help the economy is on the same level as jump to conclusions mats but he is definitely not a male version of Sarah Palin. Sarah Palin was a joke and one of the dumbest human beings to ever be on a major party ticket in the history of America.

How are the neo-cons going to handle the fact that Willard is a Mormon and Ryan is a Catholic?

[Wild Cobra]

How are the neo-cons going to handle the fact that Willard is a Mormon and Ryan is a Catholic?
Just fine I bet. Question is, how are the Liberals, Socialists, Communists, and Marxists going to handle it?

[ElNono]

Just fine I bet. Question is, how are the Liberals, Socialists, Communists, and Marxists going to handle it?

Ask them and let us know.

[baseline bum]

Seriously, aren't you supposed to pick a VP who gets you more votes? Not one who scares away the voters still up in the air?

[Wild Cobra]

Seriously, aren't you supposed to pick a VP who gets you more votes? Not one who scares away the voters still up in the air?
I can accept that as your opinion, but mine differs. I believe he was picked to add to the votes by reasons that you might not agree with, because you don't agree with them.

[Clipper Nation]

Just fine I bet. Question is, how are the Liberals, Socialists, Communists, and Marxists going to handle it?
They'll be joining the Conservatives (actual ones, not neocons) and Independents in laughing their asses off at yet another "electable" GOP failure....

:cry "But this neocon is slightly less crazy than the evangelicals but still a humongous warmonger and judgemental moralist... people will vote for him begrudgingly, right?" :cry

[baseline bum]

I don't understand going right when he already has the right-wing vote completely locked up. It made more sense when McCain did it since the right wasn't behind him until Palin, but President Uncle Tom ensures the wingnuts will be turning out in force for Romney regardless of his VP pick.

[ElNono]

I don't understand going right when he already has the right-wing vote completely locked up. It made more sense when McCain did it since the right wasn't behind him until Palin, but President Uncle Tom ensures the wingnuts will be turning out in force for Romney regardless of his VP pick.

He should've picked the Ohio guy and at least lock in that state. I don't know, maybe he thinks Ryan can actually talk about the economy for him. Because he sure as heck hasn't convinced anybody he knows what he's doing.

[mercos]

Well, for once he didn't make the safe pick. Ryan is perhaps the riskiest choice he could make. The Obama campaign is going to hammer him now over the Ryan plan for Medicare. Romney's lead with seniors is going to evaporate. Despite the fact that the Ryan plan is not going to affect seniors currently on Medicare, you better believe the Obama campaign is going to make them think it is. I don't see Ryan helping with independents. My only guess is that Romney is praying that the economy heads into a free fall and he wins by default.

[Wild Cobra]

Well, for once he didn't make the safe pick. Ryan is perhaps the riskiest choice he could make. The Obama campaign is going to hammer him now over the Ryan plan for Medicare. Romney's lead with seniors is going to evaporate. Despite the fact that the Ryan plan is not going to affect seniors currently on Medicare, you better believe the Obama campaign is going to make them think it is. I don't see Ryan helping with independents. My only guess is that Romney is praying that the economy heads into a free fall and he wins by default.
Don't count on it. The reason why conservative don't win is they try to play to moderates. They win when they maintain a conservative voice.

[ElNono]

Don't count on it. The reason why conservative don't win is they try to play to moderates. They win when they maintain a conservative voice.

uh? this shit again? they don't have the votes to win with the base. Neither do the Democrats.

[ElNono]

At least he didn't pick a Tea Potty... guess that's the silverlining on this pick...

[MannyIsGod]

At least he didn't pick a Tea Potty... guess that's the silverlining on this pick...

Well, Paul Ryan is pretty much their economic idol so in a way he did.

[ElNono]

Well, Paul Ryan is pretty much their economic idol so in a way he did.

I was reading he's still too "old Washington DC" and not a "true patriot"... whatever that's supposed to mean...

[mercos]

Don't count on it. The reason why conservative don't win is they try to play to moderates. They win when they maintain a conservative voice.

That is the story Republicans always tell. Lets see if it turns out to be true once that conservative Medicare plan is front and center.

[Wild Cobra]

That is the story Republicans always tell. Lets see if it turns out to be true once that conservative Medicare plan is front and center.
The last time we have a conservative that didn't campaign to moderates, he won in a landslide. That was 1984.

[SnakeBoy]

uh? this shit again? they don't have the votes to win with the base. Neither do the Democrats.

Turnout will decide this election.

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/yguwfvhgfuin8q32r3zzfa.gif

Will Ryan change the turnout? History says the VP pick has virtually no effect on the outcome of the election. It's always funny to me how much is made of the VP pick given this fact. I always get a laugh when so much is made of Benson's pwning of Quayle, yet in the end it didn't make one bit of difference. Americans vote for president not vice president.

[ElNono]

Turnout will decide this election.

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/yguwfvhgfuin8q32r3zzfa.gif

Will Ryan change the turnout? History says the VP pick has virtually no effect on the outcome of the election. It's always funny to me how much is made of the VP pick given this fact. I always get a laugh when so much is made of Benson's pwning of Quayle, yet in the end it didn't make one bit of difference. Americans vote for president not vice president.

I agree about the VP pick. I was reading that, at the very very best, a VP pick doesn't sway over 2% of the votes.

[symple19]

Turnout will decide this election.

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/yguwfvhgfuin8q32r3zzfa.gif

Will Ryan change the turnout? History says the VP pick has virtually no effect on the outcome of the election. It's always funny to me how much is made of the VP pick given this fact. I always get a laugh when so much is made of Benson's pwning of Quayle, yet in the end it didn't make one bit of difference. Americans vote for president not vice president.

Great post

:tu

[FromWayDowntown]

The last time we have a conservative that didn't campaign to moderates, he won in a landslide. That was 1984.

Of course. Everyone knows that Romney is as wildly popular as Reagan was in 1984.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I do not know how you quantify the effect of VP candidates.

Quayle was a stud fund raiser. At the time, he was setting record windfalls. Lieberman was the same thing. It's pretty obvious the effects that will have on an election.

Are you going to argue that LBJ's influence did not galvanize the southern base?

If you say that VP desirability ratings do not correlate with voting results then you have a point. OTOH, that is not all there is to it.

There is a split in the GOP. Paul is a blatant attempt to suck the Tea Party dick.

[howbouthemspurs]

It won't mean a thing. Obama will win regardless. John McCain chose Palin over Romney in 08'. We all know how moronic Palin is so that should give you an idea right there of how useless Romney's campaign is right now. The usual retards from the far right will obviously vote for Romney because they believe the bullshit he spews out and most of the conservatives are painting Ryan as their savior when it comes to the economy. These people sure have a talent for making middle class conservatives thinking they are rich. Romney becoming president would be bad for this country in so many ways. .I wish we could vote for Clinton again:p:

[Wild Cobra]

Of course. Everyone knows that Romney is as wildly popular as Reagan was in 1984.
I know you're being funny. You're right, he isn't that popular. I'm only saying that conservatives should not play to the left of what they are. Real conservatives have a better chance of beating liberals than those who are liberal light.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I know you're being funny. You're right, he isn't that popular. I'm only saying that conservatives should not play to the left of what they are. Real conservatives have a better chance of beating liberals than those who are liberal light.

The GOP already has people such as yourself in the bag. Romney could come out with a swastika on his forehead and you would just buy a faster car to get to the polling station.

Stupid is bad enough, quit adding naive to it as well.

[boutons_deux]

progressive/moderate Gecko, wimpily scared shitless of every faction of Repugs and tea baggers, bends over and grabs his ankles to let all of them have their way, while running away from his MAJOR POLITICAL ACCOMPLISHMENT of MA health care.

Bishop Gecko also refuses to speak about his Mormonism, trembling in fear about Southern Baptists (created by racists), when he could appease them by pushing Mormon racism! :lol

Now he panders to deficit hawks/fiscal conservative 1%ers by naming fake "fiscal/budget policy wonk" Ryan.

Gecko's WIMP label has become a tatoo, a cattle brand (which might appeal to cow-fucking bubba cowboys). :lol

Some OPPO research on Paul Ryan

Fussbudget

How Paul Ryan captured the G.O.P.


His father’s death also provoked the kind of existential soul-searching that most kids don’t undertake until college. “I was, like, ‘What is the meaning?’ ” he said. “I just did lots of reading, lots of introspection. I read everything I could get my hands on.” Like many conservatives, he claims to have been profoundly affected by Ayn Rand. After reading “Atlas Shrugged,” he told me, “I said, ‘Wow, I’ve got to check out this economics thing.’ What I liked about her novels was their devastating indictment of the fatal conceit of socialism, of too much government.” He dived into Friedrich Hayek, Ludwig von Mises, and Milton Friedman.

In a 2005 speech to a group of Rand devotees called the Atlas Society, Ryan said that Rand was required reading for his office staff and interns. “The reason I got involved in public service, by and large, if I had to credit one thinker, one person, it would be Ayn Rand,” he told the group. “The fight we are in here, make no mistake about it, is a fight of individualism versus collectivism.” To me he was careful to point out that he rejects Rand’s atheism.

As in 2009, Republicans are divided between those who think they can win by pointing out Obama’s failures and those who want to run on a Ryan-like set of ideas. Romney seems to want to be in the first camp, but during the primaries he championed the ideas in Ryan’s budget. Ryan is frequently talked about as a future leader of the House Republicans and even as a long shot to be Romney’s running mate. He surely would take either job, but he seems better suited to continuing what he’s been doing since 2008: remaking the Republican Party in his image. You can’t “run on vague platitudes and generalities,” he told me earlier this month. He was speaking about Bush in 2004 and Obama four years ago. But he clearly believes that the same holds true for Romney in November.

“He’s already endorsed these things,” Ryan said. “I want a full-throated defense for an alternative agenda that fixes the country’s problems. I want to show the country that we have a solution to get us out of the ditch we’re in, and to be proud about it.”

Ryan seemed unconcerned that pushing his policy agenda on Romney might damage the candidate. “I think life is short,” Ryan said at the end of our final conversation. “You’d better take advantage of it while you have it.”



http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/08/06/120806fa_fact_lizza?currentPage=all

Anybody who's intellectual life is guided by fucking SocailSecurity-loving bullshitter Ayn Rand is a fake, a loser.

[boutons_deux]

How The House GOP Budget Would Decimate America’s Cities And States

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/ryanbudgetstates.jpg

As difficult as the current spending caps will be for states and localities, the Ryan budget would impose much deeper cutbacks. Since 1976, federal discretionary funding to states and localities has averaged 1.4 percent of the nation’s Gross Domestic Product (GDP). By 2021, the Ryan budget would reduce this funding to about 0.6 percent of GDP, less than half the historical average and well below the BCA caps.

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/08/09/663831/how-the-house-gop-budget-would-decimate-americas-cities-and-states/

[boutons_deux]

Tax expert: Paul Ryan’s ‘smoke and mirrors’ budget would increase deficit

Bottom line: By McIntyre’s calculations, the Ryan budget cuts taxes by $4.3 trillion over 10 years; and it cuts spending by $4.2 trillion over the same period. Since the former is larger than the latter, the deficit would marginally go up.

And it’s much, much worse than this, McIntyre says, because he doesn’t believe that the Ryan budget would only cut taxes by $4.3 trillion. His budget doesn’t specify any of the deductions and loopholes he’d close to offset the huge cost of the tax cuts for corporations and the wealthy, McIntyre points out — meaning the overall tax cut would likely be far larger than he says, and that the deficit would likely soar.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/post/tax-expert-paul-ryans-smoke-and-mirrors-budget-would-increase-deficit/2012/03/20/gIQAQ0cyPS_blog.html

[boutons_deux]

Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan’s Budget

Mr. Ryan’s proposals would substantially phase out the federal government’s role in providing basic social insurance for older people by sharply reducing Medicare and by eliminating almost all nonmilitary discretionary spending.

The House Budget Committee is also proposing to remove the only safeguard we have against the failure of another megabank. Some libertarians praise these proposals. But these Republicans’ strategy is not so much to remove government in favor of abstract “markets” but to shift the balance of power away from government and toward entrenched private lobby groups, particularly in the health care sector and on Wall Street.

On Medicare, Mr. Ryan’s proposal is very simple. He wants to cap increases in spending on Medicare below the rate at which health care costs increase. By his own estimates, the share of Medicare spending relative to the size of the economy would shrink sharply over the coming decades. (Mr. Ryan proposes to keep Medicare in place for people currently retired and soon to reach the eligibility age of 65, so his proposal would affect people 55 and under today. I, by the way, am not yet 55).

Mr. Ryan’s approach certainly reduces this dimension of government spending over time. But keep in mind how the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office has assessed these ideas: according to the C.B.O., this approach would increase total health care costs as a share of the economy and as paid by you (see Figure 1 on Page 22 of this C.B.O. document, which analyzes the proposal Mr. Ryan presented last year; while some details are different this year, the essential substance is the same).

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/03/mitt-romney-and-paul-ryans-budget/

[boutons_deux]

Barry can truly, devastatingly add another hammer to his campaign: Gecko-endorsed Ryan budget destroys Medicare (senior vote) and Medicaid.

:lol

[boutons_deux]

Romney’s Stunning, Terrible Choice of Ryan for VP

Paul Ryan? Really? It’s a stunning choice. A terrible one too. By making it, Mitt Romney tells America that he is not his own man and hasn’t even the remotest fleeting desire to be his own man. He is owned by the right wing. Did I write a couple of weeks ago that Romney was insecure? Well—Q.E.D

Ryan will immediately become the flashpoint of this campaign. Yes, he’ll get the usual soft-focus biographical rollout. Expect Republicans to talk endlessly about his authenticity, his blue-collar roots, the fact that he once drove an Oscar Mayer weiner truck—and, certainly, his Catholicism. Also, his brains. He’s a smart guy, no doubt of that, although as I’ve written many times, it says something deeply pathetic about the GOP that Ryan has managed to become a star just because he’s bothered to learn policy.


The Ryan controversy will overtake the campaign. Romney will become in some senses the running mate—the ticket’s No. 2.

Think of it: The candidate will be running on his vice president’s ideas! It’s a staggering thought. Ryan might as well debate Obama this October, and Romney can square off against Biden.

It’s just very hard to imagine that middle-of-the-road voters want harsh future cuts to Medicare, massive tax cuts for the rich, and huge reductions to domestic programs that most swing voters really don’t hate. Does this choice work in Florida, with all those old people? If Romney just sacrificed Florida, he’s lost the election already.

And why? To placate a party that doesn’t even want him as its nominee anyway. It’s psycho-weird. But at least it will carry the benefit, if this ticket loses, of keeping conservatives from griping that they lost because their ticket was too moderate. Conservatism will share—will own—this loss.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/08/11/michael-tomasky-on-romney-s-stunning-terrible-choice-of-ryan-for-vp.html?utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&utm_campaign=exclusive_breaking_news&cid=newsletter%3Bemail%3Bexclusive_breaking_news&utm_term=Breaking%20News%20and%20Exclusives

[Yonivore]

Of course. Everyone knows that Romney is as wildly popular as Reagan was in 1984.
Romney's is as wildly popular as Reagan was in 1979, though. In fact, Reagan was 9 points behind Jimmy Carter at this point.

[Winehole23]

however that may be, Romney's unfavorable rating has gone up, not down. the more people find out about Romney, the less they like him.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/romney_favorableunfavorable-1134.html

[FromWayDowntown]

however that may be, Romney's unfavorable rating has gone up, not down. the more people find out about Romney, the less they like him.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/romney_favorableunfavorable-1134.html

To extend the 1984 reference, Romney is about as popular right now as Mondale was in that election. Obama is clearly not as popular as Reagan was -- and we're far more politically polarized now than we were in 1984 -- so the callback is sort of meaningless. But a statistical comparison to Mondale cannot be a good thing.

[DMX7]

Mitt Romney is spineless. This pick doesn't help him at all, but it temporarily satisfies the Fox News talking heads screaming in his ear who are obsessed with making Paul Ryan VP.

[Yonivore]

Ryan is the reason Barack Obama broke his promise to keep the Health Care debate transparent and to hold every meeting on C-Span.


zPxMZ1WdINs

Paul Ryan is a good choice for completely destroying Obama narrative about his own economic policies.

[Winehole23]

by voting for the TARP, the stimulus and the GM bailout, Paul Ryan utterly destroyed Obama's narrative about his own economic policies.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

hey Yoni, when have you ever disliked a republican nominee :lol Romney could have picked Michael Moore as his running mate and you'd find a way to convince yourself it was a solid choice...

[Yonivore]

hey Yoni, when have you ever disliked a republican nominee :lol Romney could have picked Michael Moore as his running mate and you'd find a way to convince yourself it was a solid choice...
What's not to like about him?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

oh I'm sure you like him, but how exactly does Ryan help Romney win is the question you should be asking yourself. Baseline already asked the key question, how does Ryan help Romney with the centrists and Obama's disillusioned?? or is it you think he doesn't need them?

[Yonivore]

oh I'm sure you like him, but how exactly does Ryan help Romney win is the question you should be asking yourself. Baseline already asked the key question, how does Ryan help Romney with the centrists and Obama's disillusioned?? or is it you think he doesn't need them?
Short answer? He brings the same thing to the ticket that Scott Walker brought to Wisconsin and Chris Christie brought to New Jersey and that served them well.

Scott Walker and Chris Christie took on liberal economic policy in their states and were successful in not only breaking union strongholds but improving the situations for their respective states' citizens.

Ryan is as, if not more, knowledgeable on economic issues, particularly the federal budget, than almost anyone in the nation. He has a bead on the damage being caused by Obamacare and he has a plan.

[Clipper Nation]

That is the story Republicans always tell. Lets see if it turns out to be true once that conservative Medicare plan is front and center.

We can't prove it this cycle unless Ron Paul da gawd pulls off the upset in Tampa, because neither Willard nor Ryan are at all conservative, tbh.....

[Clipper Nation]

Ryan is the reason Barack Obama broke his promise to keep the Health Care debate transparent and to hold every meeting on C-Span.
Willard is the reason why Obamacare exists... too easy, B....

[Yonivore]

Willard is the reason why Obamacare exists... too easy, B....
So far, Obamacare has resulted in more uninsured than existed before. Too easy, indeed.

[Clipper Nation]

So far, Obamacare has resulted in more uninsured than existed before. Too easy, indeed.

:cry "But, but, under Romneycare, which was the template for Obamacare, everyone would have healthcare!" :cry

[Yonivore]

:cry "But, but, under Romneycare, which was the template for Obamacare, everyone would have healthcare!" :cry
I guess Democrats don't know how to implement an idea.

[scott]

Ryan is as, if not more, knowledgeable on economic issues, particularly the federal budget, than almost anyone in the nation.

More lulz

[Yonivore]

More lulz
Glad to amuse, scott. Did you or Vegas win?

[Drachen]

So far, Obamacare has resulted in more uninsured than existed before. Too easy, indeed.

You do realize that, for the most part, Obamacare hasn't gone into effect yet, right.

You have followed that along, right?

[Drachen]

I guess Democrats don't know how to implement an idea.

as opposed to Yoni's solution: "Let's pass" (insert any complex plan here) "and it will begin tomorrow!"

[Clipper Nation]

Ryan is as, if not more, knowledgeable on economic issues, particularly the federal budget, than almost anyone in the nation.

Son, Ron Paul da gawd has forgotten more about economics than that neocon shill Paul Ryan will ever know, tbh.... Ron bless

[boutons_deux]

So far, Obamacare has resulted in more uninsured than existed before. Too easy, indeed.

You Lie

[scott]

Glad to amuse, scott. Did you or Vegas win?

2 day Return on Assets: 68%

[Yonivore]

Son, Ron Paul da gawd has forgotten more about economics than that neocon shill Paul Ryan will ever know, tbh.... Ron bless
I guess I should have qualified my remark by saying more knowledgeable than anyone in the nation, ever hoping to be in a position to affect change from a national position. My bad.

Ron Paul has never been significant enough for people to care to know how intelligent he is on economic issues.

[boutons_deux]

Ryan is as, if not more, knowledgeable on economic issues, particularly the federal budget, than almost anyone in the nation.

You Lie

Every non-Repug economist that has studied his budget strategy said that it will increase the defict. iow, Ryan is ignorant on economics at very best, and a LIAR most likely.

deficit hawks are really not concerned about the deficit, except when the Dems are in power, as 2001 to 2008 proved when the Repugs tripled the deficit. "Deficits don't matter"

[TheProfessor]

This seems like a helluva change in course for the Romney campaign. Democrats will view it as a capitulation to extreme right-wingers, but it may have been necessary. The whole "sit back and watch the economy implode" strategy wasn't working - Romney's unfavorables have risen, and he's lagging in both national and swing state polling.

Out of the other potentials (Portman, Pawlenty, Rubio), Ryan was the feast-or-famine selection. He has the potential to energize the base, but his budget plan and particularly the cuts to entitlement programs could really hurt Republicans in states like Florida and Arizona. For better or worse, Romney owns that plan now. The best thing you can say is that there is a clear choice for voters come November, rather than making it all about Obama's economic failures.

[Clipper Nation]

I guess I should have qualified my remark by saying more knowledgeable than anyone in the nation, ever hoping to be in a position to affect change from a national position. My bad.
Then he's not more knowledgeable than the average Ron Paul supporter.... son, Paul Ryan's "plan" of kicking the balanced-budget can down the road for FORTY more years, long after the dollar will have lost its reserve status, would be a complete and utter disaster on the level of Greece, B....


Ron Paul has never been significant enough for people to care to know how intelligent he is on economic issues.
If you ever stepped outside your Willard bubble, you'd realize that President-elect Paul is the reason why the Federal Reserve, NDAA, SOPA/PIPA, etc. are now mainstream topics of debate, tbh.... Ron bless

[boutons_deux]

"Obama's economic failures"

list which policies have failed (to reverse the Banksters Great Depression).

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

:lol Paul Ryan
:lol more trickle down bullshit
:lol anyone who thinks a Romney/Ryan ticket is any better than Bush/Cheney
:lol thinking that all spending other than military spending should be cut
:lol dirt poor Republicans who vote Republican because, "They think they're gonna be rich!"

[Th'Pusher]

Did we ever get any specifics on which loopholes were going to be closed under the Ryan budget in order to pay for $4.6T in additional tax cuts or are we still waiting on that info?

[TheProfessor]

"Obama's economic failures"

list which policies have failed (to reverse the Banksters Great Depression).
I'm sorry, when was the last time an incumbent president won with over 8% unemployment? I understand if you want to dispute whose fault that is, but even so, the stimulus was oversold and has underperformed.

[baseline bum]

You can’t “run on vague platitudes and generalities,”[/B] he told me earlier this month.

:lol what? If anyone bothers to read the Ryan Roadmap that's practically all that's in there. :rollin

[Yonivore]

Then he's not more knowledgeable than the average Ron Paul supporter.... son, Paul Ryan's "plan" of kicking the balanced-budget can down the road for FORTY more years, long after the dollar will have lost its reserve status, would be a complete and utter disaster on the level of Greece, B....
Are Ron Paul supporters going to vote for Obama?


If you ever stepped outside your Willard bubble, you'd realize that President-elect Paul is the reason why the Federal Reserve, NDAA, SOPA/PIPA, etc. are now mainstream topics of debate, tbh.... Ron bless
Are Ron Paul voters going to vote for Obama?

[Yonivore]

2 day Return on Assets: 68%
What percentage of your assets were expended to achieve that 68% return?

[Clipper Nation]

Are Ron Paul supporters going to vote for Obama?


Are Ron Paul voters going to vote for Obama?

No, they'll vote for Ron Paul, write him in, or vote for Gary Johnson, but the majority of Paul supporters CERTAINLY won't vote for either Fed-loving warmonger....

[Yonivore]

No, they'll vote for Ron Paul, write him in, or vote for Gary Johnson, but the majority of Paul supporters CERTAINLY won't vote for either Fed-loving warmonger....
So, they're voting for Barack Obama.

Relevant to another thread, Ron Paul is the worst religion right now. His zealous followers are willing to hand the country back to Barack Obama to make a self-serving point.

[Drachen]

So, they're voting for Barack Obama.

Relevant to another thread, Ron Paul is the worst religion right now. His zealous followers are willing to hand the country back to Barack Obama to make a self-serving point.

This is a horrible argument, they are voting their conscience. They are making as self-serving of a point as all of the other voters. Also, there are just as many left wing people enamored by ron paul as there are right side. Fucking Planet K painted a mural to ron paul on one of their stores in 2008 for crying out loud.

[boutons_deux]

I'm sorry, when was the last time an incumbent president won with over 8% unemployment? I understand if you want to dispute whose fault that is, but even so, the stimulus was oversold and has underperformed.

Polls show that a large percentage of people don't blame Obama for the destruction of middle class jobs, nor the Banksters Great Depression. This will very probably be the election where the incumbent wins with 8% unemployment. It would be 7% or less if the Repug states hadn't slashed the govt employee rolls.

The way-too-small stimulus, too small by at least $1.5T, is far enough back now that economic stats showed it saved/created a few million jobs, while Repug-dominated states pushed up the unemployment rate by destroying 100Ks of state employees. Underperformance was predicted accurately. the Dem stimulus worked very well as far as it went.

When it was seen to be too small and economy still not up to speed, Repug and Fox/hate-media profoundly dishonest/hypocrtical deficit hawking made any talk of more stimulus impossible.

As Bitch McConnell said, the Repugs' overwhelming priority was to defeat Obama, deny him and the Dems ANY successes, so Repugs creating jobs or stimulating the economy was/in non-existent.

Repugs have proposed dozens of amendments and bills about abortion. :lol

Again, list the Dem economic policies that failed.

[TheProfessor]

Polls show that a large percentage of people don't blame Obama for the destruction of middle class jobs, nor the Banksters Great Depression. This will very probably be the election where the incumbent wins with 8% unemployment. It would be 7% or less if the Repug states hadn't slashed the govt employee rolls.

The way-too-small stimulus, too small by at least $1.5T, is far enough back now that economic stats showed it saved/created a few million jobs, while Repug-dominated states pushed up the unemployment rate by destroying 100Ks of state employees. Underperformance was predicted accurately. the Dem stimulus worked very well as far as it went.

When it was seen to be too small and economy still not up to speed, Repug and Fox/hate-media profoundly dishonest/hypocrtical deficit hawking made any talk of more stimulus impossible.

As Bitch McConnell said, the Repugs' overwhelming priority was to defeat Obama, deny him and the Dems ANY successes, so Repugs creating jobs or stimulating the economy was/in non-existent.

Repugs have proposed dozens of amendments and bills about abortion. :lol

Again, list the Dem economic policies that failed.
So...when you say that the stimulus was too small, is that not a failure of the Obama administration? Democrats controlled both houses and still rolled out an insufficient stimulus. I would also point to HARP, which the administration has essentially admitted was ineffective in assisting underwater homeowners.

Humorously, I actually agree with you as far as insufficient stimulus, slashing of government employees, and Obama's likely victory. But the president has still had missteps along the way.

[boutons_deux]

"the stimulus was too small, is that not a failure of the Obama administration? "

The too-small stimulus barely passed, go look at the votes. That was all that was politcally (iow, Repug passable). That's exactly why Repugs screamed and shut down any discussion of a 2nd stimulus.

" Democrats controlled both houses"

You Repeat (Yoni/Fox) Lies.

"HARP, which the administration has essentially admitted was ineffective in assisting underwater homeowners."

the banks en masse essentially refused to reduce mortgage principal, since they were "booking" those toxic and underwater mortgages as assets.

"the president has still had missteps along the way"

I've destroyed you puny list so far. Care to add other "missteps"?

[Yonivore]

This is a horrible argument, they are voting their conscience. They are making as self-serving of a point as all of the other voters. Also, there are just as many left wing people enamored by ron paul as there are right side. Fucking Planet K painted a mural to ron paul on one of their stores in 2008 for crying out loud.
I think once you realize your candidate has absolutely no chance in Hell of winning the election you need to throw your support to the person likely to do the least amount of damage to this country and who is most aligned with your principles.

For Paulbots, that's Romney.

At this point a vote for Paul is a vote for Obama.

And, to your point about left-wing Paulbots, as dubious as I am that they equal in number to conservative Paulbots, they'll vote for Obama.

[leemajors]

No, they'll vote for Ron Paul, write him in, or vote for Gary Johnson, but the majority of Paul supporters CERTAINLY won't vote for either Fed-loving warmonger....

I'm considering writing in Stanhope :lol

[TheProfessor]

"the stimulus was too small, is that not a failure of the Obama administration? "

The too-small stimulus barely passed, go look at the votes. That was all that was politcally (iow, Repug passable). That's exactly why Repugs screamed and shut down any discussion of a 2nd stimulus.

" Democrats controlled both houses"

You Repeat (Yoni/Fox) Lies.

"HARP, which the administration has essentially admitted was ineffective in assisting underwater homeowners."

the banks en masse essentially refused to reduce mortgage principal, since they were "booking" those toxic and underwater mortgages as assets.

"the president has still had missteps along the way"

I've destroyed you puny list so far. Care to add other "missteps"?
If Obama knew the stimulus was too small and did not use his momentum/political capital to hold Republicans' feet to the fire, he capitulated. And the administration's revision of HARP in 2011 showed how ineffective it was. At some point, this administration takes blame for these failings. Continue to do your boutons-cheerleader thing, it changes nothing.

[Koolaid_Man]

According to NBC. This helps Romney how?

Vulture/Voucher 2012

[Koolaid_Man]

I think once you realize your candidate has absolutely no chance in Hell of winning the election you need to throw your support to the person likely to do the least amount of damage to this country and who is most aligned with your principles.

For Paulbots, that's Romney.

At this point a vote for Paul is a vote for Obama.

And, to your point about left-wing Paulbots, as dubious as I am that they equal in number to conservative Paulbots, they'll vote for Obama.

Ryan excites the base but - his votes against women's health; against the 9-11 first responders bill - against FEMA funding after the tornadoes - against cutting taxes for the middle class - etc., etc. etc., will turn off most Independents.

Who picks a Republican Congressman when Congress has an 8% approval rating since the Republicans took over the house? Election finished....

[boutons_deux]

If Obama knew the stimulus was too small and did not use his momentum/political capital to hold Republicans' feet to the fire, he capitulated. And the administration's revision of HARP in 2011 showed how ineffective it was. At some point, this administration takes blame for these failings. Continue to do your boutons-cheerleader thing, it changes nothing.

Momentum? bullshit. If you don't have 60 in the Senate, and Barry never did, any talk of momentum is bullshit. simple math.

"administration's revision of HARP in 2011 showed how ineffective it was."

... you're ignoring how totally the banks refused to give up anything.

[boutons_deux]

Paul Ryan? Seriously?

The hyper-ambitious political careerist—who has spent his entire adult life as a Congressional aide, think-tank hanger-on and House member—is looking for a road up. And he is sly enough to recognize that, like Dick Cheney with George Bush, he could be more than just a vice president in the administration of so bumbling a character as Romney.

Ryan figured Romney out months ago.

The two men bonded during the Wisconsin presidential primary campaign in late March and early April. They got on so well that Ryan was playing April Fool’s Day jokes on the Republican front-runner—giving Romney a rousing introduction before the candidate came from behind a curtain to find the room where he had expected to be greeted by a crowd of supporters was empty.

But Ryan would be a burden, not a booster, for a Romney-led ticket.

Like Romney, Ryan is a son of privilege who has little real-world experience or understanding. He presents well on Sunday morning talk shows and in the rarified confines of Washington think tanks and dinners with his constituents—the Masters of the Universe on Wall Street—but his record in Congress and the policies he now promotes are political albatrosses.

Some Republicans, perhaps even Romney, do not get this.

That’s because the Republican congressman from Wisconsin, for all his bluster, is anything but a consistent advocate for fiscal responsibility and balanced budgets. He is, in fact, a hypocrite,

Or, to be more precise, a hypocritical big spender—at least when Wall Street, the insurance industry and the military-industrial complex call.

Ryan has been a steady voter for unwise bailouts of big banks, unfunded mandates and unnecessary wars. Few members of Congress have run up such very big tabs while doing so little to figure out how to pay the piper. How has Ryan gotten away with his fool-most-of-the-people-most-of-the-time politics?

For the most part, he has until recently flown under the radar—dazzling fellow Republicans with fiscal fancy footwork, while dancing around weak Democratic opposition in his home district.

But no more. This year, Ryan is being called out by an able challenger with actual experience in the private sector, as well as local government. Rob Zerban, the congressman’s Democratic challenger, is not fooled by Ryan’s budgetary blathering.

Zerban is familiar with Ryan’s record. And he has been calling the budget committee chairman out on his “faux fiscal credentials.”

”Congressman Paul Ryan can grandstand about the debt all he wants, but at the end of the day, Ryan is a root cause of many of the financial issues our country faces today,” says Zerban.”From supporting two unfunded wars, to dumping millions of senior citizens into the Medicare Part D ‘donut hole’ while tying the hands of the government to negotiate prescription drug prices, and from fighting for subsidies for Big Oil that his family personally benefits from, to supporting the unfunded Bush tax cuts for his wealthiest campaign contributors, Paul Ryan’s hypocrisy is astounding.”

Ryan’s first vulnerability would be the legitimate concern about his willingness to rip apart the social safety net, under the guise of “reforms” that would undermine and eventually destroy Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security.

But under the serious scrutiny to which he would finally be subjected, Ryan would be revealed as something worse than a fiscal fabulist.

He would be revealed as a hypocrite of the highest order. Americans can handle hard truths and bold ideas. But they’re not so good with hypocrisy.

And they wouldn’t be so good with Paul Ryan.

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/08/09-3

So the non-Repug take on Ryan is that he is a total fraud, a hypocrite, a liar.

[Drachen]

I think once you realize your candidate has absolutely no chance in Hell of winning the election you need to throw your support to the person likely to do the least amount of damage to this country and who is most aligned with your principles.


This way, neither of the two main partys have any reason to change their platform to align with the growing amount of people who feel disenfranchised. (8% of the people want to vote for candidate C because of such and such issue? That is alright, don't worry about them they will fall in line anyway because they don't want candidate D in office). You are who people talk about when they say that we have the government we voted for.



For Paulbots, that's Romney.


How?



At this point a vote for Paul is a vote for Obama.


You already said this. I already said this is a horrible argument, unclear, and to take it a little further, is quite sickening.



And, to your point about left-wing Paulbots, as dubious as I am that they equal in number to conservative Paulbots, they'll vote for Obama.

and you know this how???

[djohn2oo8]

Romney doesn't like the Ryan plan as well

http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/08/mitt-romney-ryan-budget.php

Within minutes of physically embracing his new running mate Paul Ryan on a Norfolk, Va., stage, Mitt Romney was distancing himself from Ryan’s controversial House budget proposal.





NORFOLK, Va. — Does Mitt Romney’s selection of Paul Ryan as his running mate mean that the former Massachusetts governor will embrace the Wisconsin congressman’s budget plan?
Not exactly, according to a set of internal talking points produced by the Romney campaign and obtained by ABC News.

“Gov. Romney applauds Paul Ryan for going in the right direction with his budget,” according to the talking points, “and as president he will be putting together his own plan for cutting the deficit and putting the budget on a path to balance.”

oWyk-Mr6cfc

[boutons_deux]

Oops! Romney Introduces Ryan as President

Mitt Romney introduced Paul Ryan as 'the next President of the United States' this morning—and promised to uphold Medicare, which Ryan's budget gutted.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/videos/2012/08/11/oops-romney-introduces-ryan-as-president.html

:lol :lol :lol

[boutons_deux]

With Ryan, Romney Has the Plutocrat Ticket

By choosing Paul Ryan—the guy who wants to slash taxes on the rich and gut the government—Romney shows he’s decided to go nuclear in the class war.


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/08/11/paul-begala-on-how-with-ryan-romney-has-the-plutocrat-ticket.html

[Drachen]

No, they'll vote for Ron Paul, write him in, or vote for Gary Johnson, but the majority of Paul supporters CERTAINLY won't vote for either Fed-loving warmonger....

I wish you guys would get together and figure this out instead of being so fractured. I mean if either guy is acceptable, it would behoove y'all to coordinate (especially since ron paul has a very organized base, it would seem that this wouldn't be too hard, HE should show some leadership on this). A third party will never get the 5% required for federal matching funds if everything stays so fractured.

[boutons_deux]

Why Ryan?

1) Like many Republicans, Mitt Romney has been genuinely radicalized since 2008. He has adopted Ryan's ideas as his own and sincerely wishes to campaign on them, and—if elected—govern by them.

2) Romney's internal polling shows that he is not holding the GOP base. Possibly some of his slide in the polls over the past weeks represents leakage from his right flank, not his left. He may imagine that he needs Ryan as his best hope to unify his party.

3) The donors demanded it. Romney is raising huge sums of super PAC money from comparatively few people. The result of this financial strategy is to empower donor preferences—and they may prefer Ryan.

4) Romney may be thinking ahead to after the election. If the Republicans should win in 2012, a House budget chairman Ryan would emerge as the effective leader of the Republicans in the House. Romney may calculate that it's safer to have Ryan inside the administration under his control than acting as an independent power on Capitol Hill.

5) Romney may just have crumbled and yielded to pressure.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/08/11/paul-ryan.html

[jack sommerset]

Nice safe choice. God bless

[Clipper Nation]

So, they're voting for Barack Obama.

Relevant to another thread, Ron Paul is the worst religion right now. His zealous followers are willing to hand the country back to Barack Obama to make a self-serving point.
Nope... voters like you, who will blindly support anyone your team puts in front of you, are the absolute worst part of our political process, tbh....

:cry "Why won't you people compromise all your principles so you can help Team Red's big-spending, controlling warmonger beat Team Blue's big-spending, controlling warmonger?" :cry

[Clipper Nation]

I think once you realize your candidate has absolutely no chance in Hell of winning the election you need to throw your support to the person likely to do the least amount of damage to this country and who is most aligned with your principles.
Willard and Obama are equally unaligned with our principles in every single way, from their out-of-control foreign policy, to their lack of any economic plan beyond vague platitudes, to their love of the Federal Reserve and fiat money, to their support of Big Brother measures such as SOPA and PIPA, tbh...


At this point a vote for Paul is a vote for Obama.
No, a vote for Paul is a vote for Paul... maybe if we'd all stop looking at politics as a team sport where you have to carry water for your team at all costs even if the candidate isn't different from the other team's candidate, we wouldn't have such a fucked-up political process, tbh.... Ron bless

[LnGrrrR]

:depressedN
According to NBC. This helps Romney how?

Talk about lackluster. Is anyone excited for this election? No way Obama loses this... Where's the enthusiasm on the Republican side?

[Clipper Nation]

I wish you guys would get together and figure this out instead of being so fractured. I mean if either guy is acceptable, it would behoove y'all to coordinate (especially since ron paul has a very organized base, it would seem that this wouldn't be too hard, HE should show some leadership on this). A third party will never get the 5% required for federal matching funds if everything stays so fractured.
With the way the GOP has completely dismissed their greatest member and alienated his supporters, there is ZERO chance of the entire party coordinating around Willard, especially since people who like Ron Paul naturally aren't going to support a spendthrift neocon warmonger.... hell, even a lot of neocons don't like Willard, tbh...

[ElNono]

Scott Walker and Chris Christie took on liberal economic policy in their states and were successful in not only breaking union strongholds but improving the situations for their respective states' citizens.

crofl

[Drachen]

With the way the GOP has completely dismissed their greatest member and alienated his supporters, there is ZERO chance of the entire party coordinating around Willard, especially since people who like Ron Paul naturally aren't going to support a spendthrift neocon warmonger.... hell, even a lot of neocons don't like Willard, tbh...

Well then Ron Paul himself should come out and tell his supporters to vote for gary johnson. He should tell them that they should do this, not only to vote for someone who is at lease somewhat aligned with his principals, but to also do this to make the libertarian party a viable third alternative. I would even vote for him in this case even if I think some of the ideas espoused by paul are a little too far (for me personally), since I think that a third party cracking the system would be all that would be necessary to open the flood gates to a true multi-party system.

I think if Ron Paul told his supporters to do this that he would be pretty successful in motivating his base to do so.

[AFBlue]

Ummm...called it!

[baseline bum]

:depressedN

Talk about lackluster. Is anyone excited for this election? No way Obama loses this... Where's the enthusiasm on the Republican side?

I just don't get it at all. After an awful term disillusioned Obama voters were right there to be picked off by Romney, so instead he comes out an basically endorses the neocon Ryan plan and ensures they all go running back to Barack. What a ridiculously fortunate break for Obama.

[Wild Cobra]

Romney's is as wildly popular as Reagan was in 1979, though. In fact, Reagan was 9 points behind Jimmy Carter at this point.
We shouldn't forget that Reagan also got an electoral vote in the 1976 elections.

[MannyIsGod]

2 day Return on Assets: 68%

Poker? Good job.

[MannyIsGod]

:lmao

The easiest thing to call in this thread was Yoni and WC support where no one else wanted to give it.

[boutons_deux]

Romney's Veep Pick: Paul Ryan, Koch Ally and 'Right-Wing Social Engineer'

under Ryan's Not-Medicare "Medicare" plan, seniors would pay significantly more for their health care, according to an analysis by the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office:

Specifically, by 2030, seniors under the GOP’s transformed program would pay 68 percent of what they’d pay in the private market — up from 25 percent in the status quo scenario.

Of course, photos of the children who would lose health care under the Ryan plan would probably not play well for Romney, either. Democracy Corps, the polling outfit run by Stan Greenberg and James Carville, found Ryan budget to be a drag on Romney's prospects for moving swing voters into his column. (Greenberg refers to the key Obama coalition of unmarried women, youth, and minority voters as the "Rising American Electorate.) From their latest memo [10], issued in July:

The Ryan budget’s impact on the most vulnerable is powerful among key swing voters, including unmarried women, who shifted a net 10 points toward Obama, the Rising American Electorate (net 3-point shift), and independents (net 9-point shift). Even conservatives were swayed, shifting a net 13 points toward Obama.

Among those who heard an even split of facts about the Ryan budget – including ones about cuts to programs aimed to help mostly lower and working class families – the shift is even more pronounced. With this group of voters, Obama leads Romney by 9 points, 52 to 43 percent, the largest margin of any of the groups in our experiment. It’s clear that focusing on what the Ryan budget does to the most vulnerable Americans can pay dividends for Obama.

Looks like the Koch brothers are going to have to throw a whole lot of money at this thing to make it work for them. But we know they've got plenty of that.

http://www.alternet.org/print/hot-news-views/romneys-veep-pick-paul-ryan-koch-ally-and-right-wing-social-engineer

So, can the Repugs win by outspending the Dems with 1%ers $Bs?

and

by disenfranchising 100Ks of legit (nearly all Dem) voters?

[DarrinS]

Can't wait for the VP debate. He will obliterate Biden.

Lol @ board libs going full blown scanners in this thread.

[baseline bum]

Can't wait for the VP debate. He will obliterate Biden.

Lol @ board libs going full blown scanners in this thread.

So I take it you think it's smart to not pick off Obama voters and cater to those who were voting for Romney already? This VP pick is one of the best things that could have happened to Obama in this election.

[DarrinS]

What in the fuck is Romney thinking here? He's already got the teabagger conservative vote since he's running against the nigLuck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers _Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_. Why would he not try to get someone to chip away centrists disillusioned with Obama?

Wow

[Wild Cobra]

:lmao

The easiest thing to call in this thread was Yoni and WC support where no one else wanted to give it.
Wow...

I didn't know the few words I said count as support.

Please show me which of my statements offer the most support.

[DarrinS]

So I take it you think it's smart to not pick off Obama voters and cater to those who were voting for Romney already?

Obamabots are already locked in.

[baseline bum]

Obamabots are already locked in.

I'm not talking about Obama's base.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

:lmao

The easiest thing to call in this thread was Yoni and WC support where no one else wanted to give it.

forgot Darrins tbh

[baseline bum]

It makes no sense whatsoever. He could have just implemented the Ryan plan after getting elected instead of running on it and giving Obama a much better chance at re-election. I cannot believe a president as bad as Obama has a chance at a second term, much less looks to be a favorite for re-election. LOL Republicans.

[ChumpDumper]

If Obama wants to finish off Romney for good, he'll get Hillary to run as VP.

[ElNono]

Heck, picking a governor (and he had a few fairly popular ones), gave him not only the possibility to lock a swing state, but also avoid talking about voting records when Congress is at the bottom of likeability.

But hey, good luck to Mitt.

[baseline bum]

Heck, picking a governor (and he had a few fairly popular ones), gave him not only the possibility to lock a swing state, but also avoid talking about voting records when Congress is at the bottom of likeability.

But hey, good luck to Mitt.

Haha, nothing like picking one of the most visible congressmen when congress has something like a 13% approval rating.

[baseline bum]

If Obama wants to finish off Romney for good, he'll get Hillary to run as VP.

Wow, so Obama actually can get worse? :depressed

[boutons_deux]

Gecko using Ryan's budegting

Why Romney's Tax Plan is Mathematically Impossible

A quick analysis based on class shows that the math simply doesn't add up, particularly for the poor and middle class.

The big news in campaign trail policy wonkery last week was the Tax Policy Center's white paper by Samuel Brown, William G. Gale, and Adam Looney arguing that it is mathematically impossible for the Romney tax plan to meet its described goals. Ezra Klein has write-ups here and here, and James Pethokoukis has analysis here. Since Romney hasn't released his plan, Brown, Gale, and Looney cleverly put together the best case scenario and crunch the numbers -- and conclude they don't work.

How is that? Romney's plan has three goals. It starts by lowering tax rates by 20 percent. It then seeks to keep raising the same amount of tax revenues as it did before by removing tax expenditures, or the variety of exemptions, deductions, or credits in the tax code that function as government spending. As the wonks would say, it wants to "lower the rates and broaden the base." However, and this will be crucial, it excludes expenditures related to investment income and savings from being available for these cuts. Finally, it wants to maintain the current level of progressivity by making sure that the top one percent pays no less in taxes and everyone else pays no more. The Tax Policy Center analysis shows that it is impossible to do all three: enacting the Romney plan requires cutting taxes on the top one percent and raising them on everyone else.

http://www.nextnewdeal.net/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/content_images/tax_breaks.png

http://www.nextnewdeal.net/rortybomb/why-romneys-tax-plan-mathematically-impossible

[Spurminator]

Remains to be seen I guess. Obviously this excites the conservative base that wasn't very enthusiastic about Romney, but how many of those people weren't already still going to show up anyway to vote out Obama?

[ChumpDumper]

Wow, so Obama actually can get worse? :depressedStrange but true.

[boutons_deux]

Less Interesting Person Than Romney Found in Wisconsin


http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/borowitzreport/120806_talkcmmntillus_p233.jpg

U.S.S. WISCONSIN (The Borowitz Report)—An exhaustive manhunt that took months and spanned the country came to a dramatic end today as a less interesting person than Mitt Romney turned up in Wisconsin.

On the deck of the U.S.S. Wisconsin, officials from the Guinness Book of World Records were on hand to certify the result of the search.

“This man is in fact the least interesting person in America,” one Guinness official said, adding that Mr. Romney himself had held that title since 1947.

Mr. Romney and the man made a joint appearance, after which the audience was advised not to operate heavy machinery.

The man of the hour used his brief remarks to lay out his vision of America, saying that billions of dollars could be saved by eliminating food, clothing, and shelter.

For his part, Mr. Romney sounded a theme for the fall campaign: “It’s time to transform America, and the two of us are both Transformers.”

Read more http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/borowitzreport/2012/08/less-interesting-person-than-romney-found-in-wisconsin.html?printable=true&currentPage=all#ixzz23GuH1hDd

[boutons_deux]

Embracing Ryan, and His Budget Details

To date, Mitt Romney has been criticized for the lack of detail behind his promise to reduce the nation's rising debt through sweeping spending cuts and tax changes, but also politically insulated by it.

Now, his gamble in tapping as his running mate Representative Paul D. Ryan, the author of the audacious House Republican budget plan, changes all of that.

The budgets that Mr. Ryan, the chairman of the House Budget Committee, has pushed through the Republican-controlled House this year and last have defined nothing short of a conservative reordering of the nation's tax and spending priorities for the 21st century. His blueprint would greatly shrink the government, largely undoing the social safety net by shifting more costs onto individuals and essentially converting Medicare into a capped voucher program. It also would adjust the progressive income-tax system, which, like the safety net, was built through the 20th century under Republican as well as Democratic presidents.

The Ryan budgets were predictably blocked by the Democratic-controlled Senate and President Obama. Yet should Mr. Romney win election, it is far from clear how a Romney-Ryan budget would fare even in a friendlier Congress, given the politically and fiscally fraught particulars that Mr. Ryan and his House Republican colleagues have proposed.

The Ryan plan, which Mr. Romney endorsed during the hard-fought race for the Republican nomination, would cut about $6 trillion from projected spending in the first 10 years. But the plan also would cut revenues by $4 trillion, and more over time, by slashing individual and corporate income taxes. The government would not run a surplus for three decades, according to the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office - an outcome that would have been heresy to pro-tax-cut but anti-deficit Republicans of the past.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/article;jsessionid=698A4C8718669943B56CB1ED46557FD 0?a=959232&f=19

[mavs>spurs]

gecko gecko repug wmd's corporate greed repug gecko

[Blake]

gecko gecko repug wmd's corporate greed repug gecko

Gfy

©boutons

[Clipper Nation]

Sons, Paul Ryan's economic "plan" would induce trillion dollar deficits every year... nothing would be cut, money for social programs would just be rerouted to the military.... the dollar would lose its reserve status, we would be Greece 2.0...

[Wild Cobra]

Sons, Paul Ryan's economic "plan" would induce trillion dollar deficits every year... nothing would be cut, money for social programs would just be rerouted to the military.... the dollar would lose its reserve status, we would be Greece 2.0...
We are already on the path for Greece 2.0, except it will be so much bigger.

[boutons_deux]

US can't become Greece. US can print money, Greece can't

US sells bonds a very low price, and finds plenty of buyers. Greece sells bonds at very high rates and doesn't

typical right-wing bullshit

[Wild Cobra]

US can't become Greece. US can print money, Greece can't

US sells bonds a very low price, and finds plenty of buyers. Greece sells bonds at very high rates and doesn't

typical right-wing bullshit
Is that why you think we can endlessly go into debt?

[Clipper Nation]

US can't become Greece. US can print money, Greece can't
That isn't a good thing for us...


US sells bonds a very low price, and finds plenty of buyers. Greece sells bonds at very high rates and doesn't

Good luck finding buyers if we lose reserve currency status, B....

[boutons_deux]

A better comparison with Greece would be several govt-hating Repug red states that would be bankrupt if the Feds didn't bail them out every year.

[Clipper Nation]

A better comparison with Greece would be several govt-hating Repug red states that would be bankrupt if the Feds didn't bail them out every year.

Not really... you have no idea how bad losing reserve currency status could be....

[Pelicans78]

I actually agree with Ryan about Medicare and Medicaid. Two useless entities that need to go.

[CosmicCowboy]

IMHO Ryan was a bold but stupid choice.

Ryan actually presented a serious plan to address serious problems we face that his opponents can use against him.

What the fuck is he doing in Politics?

[ChumpDumper]

WTF is anyone who cites Rand as a hero doing as a career politician?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I actually agree with Ryan about Medicare and Medicaid. Two useless entities that need to go.

For all of their bloated bureaucracy, they are still more efficient than private insurance.

Same care for less money.

[baseline bum]

WTF is anyone who cites Rand as a hero doing as a career politician?

It worked out well before?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/Alan_Greenspan_color_photo_portrait.jpg/220px-Alan_Greenspan_color_photo_portrait.jpg

[baseline bum]

IMHO Ryan was a bold but stupid choice.

Ryan actually presented a ridiculously stupid plan to further drive up deficits that his opponents can use against him.

What the fuck is he doing in Politics?

fixed

[Ashy Larry]

bottom line: ryan will make many chicks go Barry O ....... and you can't piss off the females .......

[FuzzyLumpkins]

"I believe my record of getting things done in Congress will be a very helpful complement to Governor Romney’s executive and private sector success outside Washington," Ryan told an excited crowd aboard the ship "I have worked closely with Republicans as well as Democrats to advance an agenda of economic growth, fiscal discipline, and job creation."

I thought this statement by Ryan was pretty damn funny. He's the chair of the Budget Committee and claiming that he has gotten things done?

this shit almost makes me willing to vote for Obama. Almost.

[Clipper Nation]

Ryan actually presented a serious plan
:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[CosmicCowboy]

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

And what is so funny about that? We all know that entitlements are the 800 pound gorilla in the room. Some just don't have the balls to talk about it.

[CosmicCowboy]

I thought this statement by Ryan was pretty damn funny. He's the chair of the Budget Committee and claiming that he has gotten things done?

this shit almost makes me willing to vote for Obama. Almost.

It's not his fault that the Senate is run by a spineless kunt like Harry Reid that won't let anything even get to a vote. If you disagree with what the House voted on and approved, put it in front of the Senate and let them vote too..

[Clipper Nation]

And what is so funny about that?
His idea of "cuts" would just be shifting money from social programs to the already-bloated military, his plan would result in trillion-dollar deficits every year, and the debt-to-GDP ratio would grow so much that our dollar would be fucked (especially since he'd never even touch the money-printing Fed)...

[CosmicCowboy]

His idea of "cuts" would just be shifting money from social programs to the already-bloated military, his plan would result in trillion-dollar deficits every year, and the debt-to-GDP ratio would grow so much that our dollar would be fucked (especially since he'd never even touch the money-printing Fed)...

There was nothing in his plan about increasing military spending. You and butons really shouldn't rely so much on thinkprogress for your news.

[Wild Cobra]

It's not his fault that the Senate is run by a spineless kunt like Harry Reid that won't let anything even get to a vote. If you disagree with what the House voted on and approved, put it in front of the Senate and let them vote too..

Was it "сunt" you used to be censored?

[CosmicCowboy]

yes

[Clipper Nation]

There was nothing in his plan about increasing military spending. You and butons really shouldn't rely so much on thinkprogress for your news.
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3708


The CBO report, prepared at Chairman Ryan’s request, shows that Ryan’s budget path would shrink federal expenditures for everything other than Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, the Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP), and interest payments to just 3¾ percent of the gross domestic product (GDP) by 2050. Since, as CBO notes, “spending for defense alone has not been lower than 3 percent of GDP in any year [since World War II]” and Ryan seeks a high level of defense spending — he increases defense funding by $228 billion over the next ten years above the pre-sequestration baseline — the rest of government would largely have to disappear.

[Wild Cobra]

yes
LOL...

I saw the "Fuck the Lakers" and then it was gone.

[CosmicCowboy]

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3708

well duh. It's a fact of life we have to wind down the shit we are already in. Don't confuse 10 years with 50 years.

[Clipper Nation]

well duh. It's a fact of life we have to wind down the shit we are already in. Don't confuse 10 years with 50 years.

Son, our dollar will probably be fucked by the time that plan is supposed to actually balance the budget, due to Willard and Ryan's expensive neocon chickenhawk agenda at home and abroad, coupled with the rising debt-to-GDP ratio and the Fed's inflationary policies....

[Wild Cobra]

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3708
I wouldn't trust CBPP either.

Pre-sequestration baseline?

Please excuse my ignorance. What exactly does that mean?

Anyway, they do say:

Ryan’s budget path would shrink federal expenditures for everything other than Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, the Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP), and interest payments to just 3¾ percent of the gross domestic product (GDP) by 2050.

What is this word play they are using?

They say "everything other than" will shrink. Defense is not in the "other than" category, and then they say it will increase?

This definitely needs some scrutiny.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It's not his fault that the Senate is run by a spineless kunt like Harry Reid that won't let anything even get to a vote. If you disagree with what the House voted on and approved, put it in front of the Senate and let them vote too..

Put your pom poms away. He claimed to work with Dems when its all too clear that neither side will work with the other. I don't like my ass to smell like mesquite.

When was the last budget passed? The budgets for the past decade have been about political posturing so as to point fingers and nothing about policy. Both sides have no intention of one passing so they just propose one's that are spin and not policy.

If either side would acknowledge that then I could appreciate it but Ryan has been as instrumental in the gridlock in Congress as anyone else.

[baseline bum]

And what is so funny about that? We all know that entitlements are the 800 pound gorilla in the room. Some just don't have the balls to talk about it.

I thought debt was the 800 pound gorilla. So he wants to fix debt by lowering taxes? And his medicare elimination just happens to only affect the younger generations? If medicare is so unsustainable, why not get rid of it for the baby boomers too? His proposal is about as serious as if Bernie Sanders came out and said to tax the top 2% at 90% like when we were paying off WWII.

[Wild Cobra]

well duh. It's a fact of life we have to wind down the shit we are already in. Don't confuse 10 years with 50 years.
this could explain my question, but I'm not so sure of that.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I wouldn't trust CBPP either.

Pre-sequestration baseline?

Please excuse my ignorance. What exactly does that mean?

Anyway, they do say:


What is this word play they are using?

They say "everything other than" will shrink. Defense is not in the "other than" category, and then they say it will increase?

This definitely needs some scrutiny.

From Romney's website:


Requires spending cuts of approximately $500 billion per year in 2016 assuming robust economic recovery with 4% annual growth, and reversal of irresponsible Obama-era defense cuts.

http://www.mittromney.com/issues/spending

[Capt Bringdown]

LOL at the "stark differences" between R & D:



The news media have played a crucial role in Mr. Obama’s career, helping to make him a national star not long after he had been an anonymous state legislator. As president, however, he has come to believe the news media have had a role in frustrating his ambitions to change the terms of the country’s political discussion. He particularly believes that Democrats do not receive enough credit for their willingness to accept cuts in Medicare and Social Security, while Republicans oppose almost any tax increase to reduce the deficit.
- more - >> (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/08/us/politics/obama-is-an-avid-reader-and-critic-of-news-media-coverage.html)



So Obama too is willing to take the political risk of cutting the popular programs called Medicare and Social Security. In fact, what Obama wants is not to protect these programs from cuts, but rather to receive appropriate credit from the media corporations for his willingness to cut them. This, we are about to be told endlessly, is in stark contrast to Romney-Ryan’s willingness to cut Medicare and Social Security. But the biggest contrast seems to be that the media gives Romney and Ryan the credit that Obama covets.

Oh no, Obama supporters will reply, there’s a big difference. Romney wants to cut these programs, while Obama is willing to cut them. Romney is evil, while Obama is noble and gracious in his appeasing of evil. I’m sorry, but won’t the catfood that grandma lives on taste as bitter regardless of whether her income was removed maliciously or accommodatingly?

Oh, but Romney-and-Ryan want to cut more than Obama wants to cut.

Are you sure? RR need only triple their demand for Obama to double his. The longer the debate goes on, the more old people Obama wants to starve to demonstrate his willingness to accommodate. In fact, exactly how many old people starve — whether Iranians living under sanctions or Americans living under austerity — is hardly relevant. The important thing is to have gone further toward meeting RR’s demand than RR went toward meeting yours.
-- more --> (http://davidswanson.org/node/3768)

[Clipper Nation]

The fact is, any so-called balanced budget plan that adds $4 trillion to the deficit over the next ten years is a dumbass plan, tbh....

[Wild Cobra]

The fact is, any so-called balanced budget plan that adds $4 trillion to the deficit over the next ten years is a dumbass plan, tbh....
It's not a balanced budget. The problem is, with all their mandatory spending put in place, it's impossible to have a balanced budget for some time. Changes need to be made that a single president alone cannot do. Congress also needs to act.

[CosmicCowboy]

The fact is, any so-called balanced budget plan that adds $4 trillion to the deficit over the next ten years is a dumbass plan, tbh....

I'm on record as saying we need military cuts, entitlement cuts, government bureaucracy cuts, and tax increases to seriously address the debt issue.

At this point I'm just supporting the lesser of evils IMHO.

[Wild Cobra]

The fact is, any so-called balanced budget plan that adds $4 trillion to the deficit over the next ten years is a dumbass plan, tbh....
Also, I think you are confusing debt and deficit.

[DarrinS]

Ryan has way more experience than Obama did in 2008.

[DarrinS]

Just thought that should be pointed out.

[Wild Cobra]

I'm good with military cuts too, but what can be done if defense contracts are signed for a decade out?

[Capt Bringdown]

A so-called Democratic President who's worried that he's not getting enough credit for his willingness to cut Medicare and Social Security?

And we're supposed to be scared of Romney and Ryan?
Fuck you - again - Democrats

[Clipper Nation]

At this point I'm just supporting the lesser of evils IMHO.
The lesser of two evils is still evil, son...

[ElNono]

Fully expect Mitt to walk away from the Medicare and Social Security portions of Ryan's plan...

[fraga]

Good lord Romney...you're not even making this interesting anymore...you pick the one guy who's famous for wanting to KILL Medicaid or Medicare I can't remember which one...either way...you can kiss the old ass vote good boy...

http://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/2009/6/30/128908520618740808.jpg

[boutons_deux]

Fully expect Mitt to walk away from the Medicare and Social Security portions of Ryan's plan...

He can't. Destroying the social safety net is as central to Ryan's sociopathy as is enriching the 1% and corps.

Fucking Catholic conservatives, just as Christian as non-Catholic "Christians".

[boutons_deux]

Paul Ryan Reading Guide: The Best Reporting on the VP Candidate

Want help going beyond the horse race? We’re gathering the best stories out there on Congressman Paul Ryan, his positions, and his background.

http://www.propublica.org/article/paul-ryan-reading-guide-the-best-reporting-on-the-vp-candidate

[Capt Bringdown]

Fully expect Mitt to walk away from the Medicare and Social Security portions of Ryan's plan...

The voucher plan is supposed to make Obama's Simpson-Bowles "necessary cuts" look reasonable and serious.

[CosmicCowboy]

I'm good with military cuts too, but what can be done if defense contracts are signed for a decade out?

Then we will have a lot of new, cool shit sitting in the hanger/warehouse in case we REALLY need it.

it's time to stop thinking we can be the worlds policeman.

Let those third world assholes keep killing each other and get the fuck out of there.

[Clipper Nation]

Good lord Romney...you're not even making this interesting anymore...you pick the one guy who's famous for wanting to KILL Medicaid or Medicare I can't remember which one...either way...you can kiss the old ass vote good boy...
Willard has the old-ass vote on lock, they tend to believe everything they hear on Faux News and fall for the usual neocon fearmongering, tbh...

[Th'Pusher]

IMHO Ryan was a bold but stupid choice.

Ryan actually presented a serious plan to address serious problems we face that his opponents can use against him.

What the fuck is he doing in Politics?

Oh. Did Ryan actually come out and say which tax expenditures he was goin to eliminate In order to pay for his $4.6T in additional tax cuts? I must have missed that? Was it the mortgage Intrest deduction he proposed getting rid of to pay for the additional tax cuts?

[CosmicCowboy]

How many of you guys in your 30's-40's REALLY believe that social security and medicare as we know it now are really gonna be there when you retire?

[Capt Bringdown]

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee280/rayong_kid/grandma.jpg

[Capt Bringdown]

How many of you guys in your 30's-40's REALLY believe that social security and medicare as we know it now are really gonna be there when you retire?

Not unless workers check the power of Wall Street.

[Th'Pusher]

How many of you guys in your 30's-40's REALLY believe that social security and medicare as we know it now are really gonna be there when you retire?

Did Ryan actually say what tax expenditures he was going to eliminate to pay for his $4.6T in tax cuts. You said he had a real plan.

[MannyIsGod]

Fully expect Mitt to walk away from the Medicare and Social Security portions of Ryan's plan...

Except those ARE the Ryan Plan. Can't do it. I get what people like Snake Boy are saying when they are talking about voter enthusisaim but Romney isn't winning on the back of a high base turnout. His base isn't wide enough and the base that is energized by this selection is the same base that was energized by Palin.

That was tried by McCain. He lost and it wasn't close. Obama certainly won't get the same type of turnout this time from his base, but I don't believe anyone thinks he has to.

Personally, I think Romney could have made it an interesting campaign if he had come more to the middle and away from the conservative right. If he would have made it something more than "I'm not Obama". But he's apparently not brave enough for that.

[Wild Cobra]

Then we will have a lot of new, cool shit sitting in the hanger/warehouse in case we REALLY need it.

Some of which the military doesn't even want.


it's time to stop thinking we can be the worlds policeman.

In most cases, yes. I wouldn't say all though.


Let those third world assholes keep killing each other and get the fuck out of there.
Yep. As long as they stay off our soil and our allies, let them kill each other.

[boutons_deux]

"he had come more to the middle and away from the conservative right"

he's too wimpy, too empty to be his own man. Totally without "that vision thang", he yields to whatever applies maximum pressure.

[Th'Pusher]

Which tax expenditures is he eliminating to pay for his $4.6T in new tax cuts CC? Which of these are politically viable? http://www.washingtonpost.com/r/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2011/08/19/National-Politics/Graphics/Top%2010%20Largest%20Tax%20Expenditures.pdf

[ElNono]

How many of you guys in your 30's-40's REALLY believe that social security and medicare as we know it now are really gonna be there when you retire?

They don't have to be "as we know it now". In the Medicare case, it also doesn't need to be entirely wiped out and replaced with "vouchers" that don't keep up with medical costs... that's just not addressing what the real issue with Medicare or healthcare in general is: actual costs.

Don't get me wrong, CC. I'm not against reforming both systems to put them on a sustainable path. But there's more ways to do that than just giving a big fat middle finger to those that chipped into the system a good chunk of their salaries their entire adult life.

[Capt Bringdown]

Don't get me wrong, CC. I'm not against reforming both systems to put them on a sustainable path.

Or, there might be other options other than Ryan's Catfood for Seniors vs Obama's Simpson Bowles "necessary cuts."
For if you truly want to reduce costs, you'd have to talk about expanding these programs rather than delivering them to Wall Street.

[LnGrrrR]

Ryan has way more experience than Obama did in 2008.

Well Obama has more experience than Romney or Ryan right now, and since it's obviously such an important factor in your calculations, I'll assume you're voting for Obama this time?

[LnGrrrR]

I'm good with military cuts too, but what can be done if defense contracts are signed for a decade out?

If the President can put out assassination orders on US citizens, I'm pretty sure he can find a way to break a contract...

[AFBlue]

Well Obama has more experience than Romney or Ryan right now, and since it's obviously such an important factor in your calculations, I'll assume you're voting for Obama this time?

IIRC, he voted for Obama last time.

[AFBlue]

I'm good with military cuts too, but what can be done if defense contracts are signed for a decade out?

Of what contracts are you speaking?

[Jacob1983]

Doesn't this move help invisible Gary Johnson? Just think about it. Ron Paul supporters ain't fuckin voting for Romney and Ryan and defintely not voting for Obama. I think it helps. I also think Gary Johnson and the even more invisible Virgil Goode will do a little damage to Obama and Romney in November. Romney, Ryan, Biden, and Obama all support nation building, the Patriot Act, the NDAA, the bailouts, a welfare state from cradle to grave, endless wars that make several countries hate America and/or make relations with those countries even worse than they were before, etc...
The list goes on.

[Pelicans78]

For all of their bloated bureaucracy, they are still more efficient than private insurance.

Same care for less money.

Not even close. They hardly cover anything at this point. Not even close to private insurance.

[ElNono]

Not even close. They hardly cover anything at this point. Not even close to private insurance.

Not my experience, but depends on the private insurance also... lots of places going with marginal private self-insurance that doesn't cover shit these days...

[Pelicans78]

Not my experience, but depends on the private insurance also... lots of places going with marginal private self-insurance that doesn't cover shit these days...

That is true. But still is a more efficient option long-term than Medicare and Medicaid. Medicaid doesn't cover anything anyway and patients on it have to wait months anyway to get anything done. Medicare is covering less and less each day. Plus, they're now trying to audit hospitals, private health care centers for past expenses because they're broke and useless. Also, patients on it have to pay 20% of any procedure they're getting done. That's alot to pay for. Medicare is really a joke and can't be reformed. Not enough money.

[boutons_deux]

Not even close. They hardly cover anything at this point. Not even close to private insurance.

You Lie

"Indeed, the latest ABC News/Washington Post poll found 62 percent of Americans expressing support for "having the government create a new health insurance plan to compete with private health insurance plans." Other pollsters describing the public option as "government administered" and "similar to Medicare" gauged even more positive reactions: 67 percent in a Kaiser Family Foundation poll in April and 72 percent in the most recent CBS News/New York Times poll."

Among those insured through Medicare, however, "the Medicare program" (68 percent) scores nearly as high. Among those with private insurance, "your health insurance company" earns much less trust (48 percent).

http://www.nationaljournal.com/njonline/who-s-afraid-of-public-insurance--20090629

Medicare Is More Efficient Than Private Insurance


http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2011/09/20/medicare-is-more-efficient-than-private-insurance/

[boutons_deux]

What Paul Ryan Brings to the Romney Ticket


Tapping Paul Ryan gives Romney a ticket mate who believes the problems facing the country are too serious to demagogue. Good luck with that. :lol

Mitt Romney finally found a way to fire up the base—the other guy’s base. One needn’t venture beyond these pages to encounter gleeful liberal depictions of Romney’s new running mate, Paul Ryan, as an unhinged Randian plutocrat whose plans to kill Medicare (among other mustache-twirling villainies) will make him a “juicy target” for Obama and the Democrats this fall.

The Wall Street Journal’s Gerald Seib believes that the Ryan pick “best guarantees the country will get the kind of philosophical debate worthy of a presidential campaign.”

Maybe. A likelier result is a turn further downward. Everyone up for a “zombie-eyed granny-starver from Wisconsin”?

In choosing Ryan, Romney is no longer defending a vague set of ideas aligned with Ryan’s reform approach; he’s now taken on the thing itself, and will find himself spending the remainder of the campaign defending it, in all of its potentially damaging details. If entitlement reform is the third rail of politics, this is an entire third-rail transportation system.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/08/12/what-paul-ryan-brings-to-the-romney-ticket.html?utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&utm_campaign=cheatsheet_morning&cid=newsletter%3Bemail%3Bcheatsheet_morning&utm_term=Cheat%20Sheet

He's BAAAACK!

A Repug prez candidate whose VEEP pick kills his chances. :lol

[Pelicans78]

You Lie



You just don't know the true of what Medicare actually pays for. You're ignorant. They're cutting what they cover all the time. No secret there. Plus, there will be alot more medicare cuts coming soon. No myth, it will happen. Eventually, it will hardly cover anything at all and yet tax payers will continue to pay for it and pay more for it.

Of course more people will want something that they don't have to pay for. That's common sense. If I got something for free, I would like it to. Doesn't mean its best for the country.

What's gonna happen eventually is private insurance will follow what's going on and start to cover less and less as well. They will start to go out of business and eventually one day, we will just have a single payer for insurance. The government.

[Pelicans78]

And Bouton, you're so clueless, you don't even mention how much Obama is cutting from medicare with his health care plan. He's gonna neuter it down to pretty much nothing, yet the tax payers will continue to pay for.

[boutons_deux]

Cutting Medicare reimbursements is "controlling govt costs" by paying less, which doesn't mean less care, while the Ryan's voucher plan does nothing to reduce health care bills, only shifts payments from Medicare to seniors, impoverishing, AND THEREBY DENYING THEY CARE (they won't be able to get coverage with vouchers, nor pay the copays).

Nobody is really addressing the core problem of the sick-care system horribly overcharging for their dubious services with inferior outcomes.

[Pelicans78]

Cutting Medicare reimbursements is "controlling govt costs" by paying less, which doesn't mean less care, while the Ryan's voucher plan does nothing to reduce health care bills, only shifts payments from Medicare to seniors, impoverishing, AND THEREBY DENYING THEY CARE (they won't be able to get coverage with vouchers, nor pay the copays).

Nobody is really addressing the core problem of the sick-care system horribly overcharging for their dubious services with inferior outcomes.

It absolutely means less care. When medicare decides its not gonna pay for something, then that means less care. Medicare is already covering less and less all the time. When its gets less money, its gonna stop covering either more which obviously means less care for the patients. Less reimbursements will mean less specialists will see medicare patients and means less care for those people.

[ElNono]

That is true. But still is a more efficient option long-term than Medicare and Medicaid. Medicaid doesn't cover anything anyway and patients on it have to wait months anyway to get anything done. Medicare is covering less and less each day. Plus, they're now trying to audit hospitals, private health care centers for past expenses because they're broke and useless. Also, patients on it have to pay 20% of any procedure they're getting done. That's alot to pay for. Medicare is really a joke and can't be reformed. Not enough money.

No way. Insurance is expensive as hell already unless you're getting it through your employer, and that's insuring a very low risk pool compared to seniors, where 80% of the healthcare expenses happen. A premium for the elderly would cost a shitload of money, many more times than for your average person. Medicare spends a lot of money because it's actually taking care of people that are sick the most by a large margin. Since these people largely don't work for obvious reasons, government will have to pick up the bill no matter what. Adding an insurance company in the middle is just inserting another middleman that wants their cut.

IMO, the only way to make this work is addressing healthcare costs. The US simply pays way too much for the services and the medications compared to any other country. Almost twice as much. You could tell me you get 2x better service, but for a lot of basic services it's very debatable.

[ElNono]

The ACA didn't address costs either, which is why we keep kicking the can around instead of actually doing what needs to be done.

[boutons_deux]

"Insurance is expensive as hell already unless you're getting it through your employer"

BS. $15K+ is avg insurance cost for family of 4, estimated to be $20K+ by 2020.

When the employer pays for group insurance, he skims of the employee's salary, tax deductible for him and a tax-free benefit for the employee, directly to the insurance company, just he does with IRS and withholding tax. So employees still "pay" for still expensive insurance.

$15K+ per year for insurance for family 4, but the average bill for sick care per year is $32K for four persons.

[ElNono]

"Insurance is expensive as hell already unless you're getting it through your employer"

BS. $15K+ is avg insurance cost for family of 4, estimated to be $20K+ by 2020.

Average where? With what deductible/coinsurance?

We're two adults and the absolute cheapest we can get is $879.60/mo, which only covers 70%/50% and $2,500 deductible for in-network... That's basically upwards of $12K...

Anything in the HMO department is basically $2K+ per month...

Here's the list (http://www.state.nj.us/dobi/division_insurance/ihcseh/ihcratepage_sp.pdf)

[baseline bum]

How many of you guys in your 30's-40's REALLY believe that social security and medicare as we know it now are really gonna be there when you retire?

If people think it's unsustainable, then they should get rid of it now. Instead the Ryan plan leaves people in their 20s-40s paying for the Baby Boomers' benefits while getting dicked out of their own. Ryan just bribed his base at the expense of young people who don't vote Republican. Just more of the standard Republican mantra of sacrifice and market discipline for you, nanny state for me.

[SnakeBoy]

Except those ARE the Ryan Plan. Can't do it. I get what people like Snake Boy are saying when they are talking about voter enthusisaim but Romney isn't winning on the back of a high base turnout. His base isn't wide enough and the base that is energized by this selection is the same base that was energized by Palin.

That was tried by McCain. He lost and it wasn't close. Obama certainly won't get the same type of turnout this time from his base, but I don't believe anyone thinks he has to.

Personally, I think Romney could have made it an interesting campaign if he had come more to the middle and away from the conservative right. If he would have made it something more than "I'm not Obama". But he's apparently not brave enough for that.

Except they weren't energized by Palin. GOP turnout was down in '08. Even though the polling shows very poor ennthusiasm for Obama this year the GOP primaries turnout was pretty bad too. So I guess we'll see what happens in the general. I think independents will split fairly evenly and it will come down to turnout.

One of the interesting things on Dems initial attack on the Ryan pick is that it has them talking about the very fiscal issues they have been trying to avoid talking about. It will be interesting to see how it plays out. If their attacks backfire on them the Ryan pick will be the Romney Rope A Dope.

[MannyIsGod]

Its undenaible the base was energized by the Palin selection. That turnout was down doesn't mean that wasn't the case. Look at the poll numbers that followed the selection. Palin polled horribly with everyone else, but with the base she was great. Turnout would likely have been even worse if not for that selection.

[SnakeBoy]

Its undenaible the base was energized by the Palin selection. That turnout was down doesn't mean that wasn't the case. Look at the poll numbers that followed the selection. Palin polled horribly with everyone else, but with the base she was great. Turnout would likely have been even worse if not for that selection.

That's true of her selection but that enthusiam had faded by the election. Partly because she clearly wasn't ready for the national stage but more so by McCain's completely inept response to the financial meltdown.

[AFBlue]

One of the interesting things on Dems initial attack on the Ryan pick is that it has them talking about the very fiscal issues they have been trying to avoid talking about. It will be interesting to see how it plays out. If their attacks backfire on them the Ryan pick will be the Romney Rope A Dope.

This is why I thought he'd pick Ryan all along. Yes he's controversial on his handling of Medicare, which might alienate some seniors, but the Democratic counterpoint is what? Exactly.

By picking Ryan, the focus stays on the consistent Romney message; private-led stimulus and smaller government. The selection of Rubio might have diluted the message by bringing the Immigration question or social issues. Sure both Romney and Ryan have their positions on those issues, but neither will be the focus of the campaign.

It's a risky pick for sure, but I'm also interested to see how it plays out.

[Clipper Nation]

By picking Ryan, the focus stays on the consistent Romney message
"Consistent" and "Romney" don't belong in the same sentence, tbh...


private-led stimulus and smaller government.
...unless it's defense spending or religious pandering, then it's all about the biggest government possible, tbh....

[boutons_deux]

Average where? With what deductible/coinsurance?

We're two adults and the absolute cheapest we can get is $879.60/mo, which only covers 70%/50% and $2,500 deductible for in-network... That's basically upwards of $12K...

Anything in the HMO department is basically $2K+ per month...

Here's the list (http://www.state.nj.us/dobi/division_insurance/ihcseh/ihcratepage_sp.pdf)

Individual insurance is of course much higher than group insurance, and is paid for after tax.

"A new study by the Kaiser Family Foundation, a nonprofit research group that tracks employer-sponsored health insurance on a yearly basis, shows that the average annual premium for family coverage through an employer reached $15,073 in 2011, an increase of 9 percent over the previous year."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/28/business/health-insurance-costs-rise-sharply-this-year-study-shows.html?pagewanted=all

[Wild Cobra]

Average where? With what deductible/coinsurance?

We're two adults and the absolute cheapest we can get is $879.60/mo, which only covers 70%/50% and $2,500 deductible for in-network... That's basically upwards of $12K...

Anything in the HMO department is basically $2K+ per month...

Here's the list (http://www.state.nj.us/dobi/division_insurance/ihcseh/ihcratepage_sp.pdf)

So buy catastrophic insurance. Pay your other medical needs out of pocket.

[AFBlue]

"Consistent" and "Romney" don't belong in the same sentence, tbh...


...unless it's defense spending or religious pandering, then it's all about the biggest government possible, tbh....

Weak, tbh.

[boutons_deux]

By picking Ryan, the focus stays on the consistent Romney message;



Repugs and conservatives have already distancing Gecko from Ryan's safety net destruction.

Gecko even said he would preserve Medicare (at least for the seniors voting in November :lol ).

So now Gecko and Repugs are distancing themselves, certainly dishonestly, from the Ryan's "destroy-the-1930s/1960s-safety-net" (along with the remaining unions).

The extreme Repugs and conservative have targeted Roosevelt's and Johnson's govt safety net for 35 years, I'm sure they will, if elected with both chambers, complete the destruction, and then cut taxes dramatically for the 1% and corps, and probably reduce or cancel the federal minimum wage.

The 99% Americans have to be pretty fucking stupid and/or ideological to think the Repugs will improve the lot of the 99%, which is exactly how the Repugs are lying.

Note how the Repugs are embracing Clinton, while dubya won't even be at the R convention. The Repugs are mentioning NOTHING about their last fiasco 2001 - 2008, counting on American's famous amnesia.

[SnakeBoy]

Average where? With what deductible/coinsurance?

We're two adults and the absolute cheapest we can get is $879.60/mo, which only covers 70%/50% and $2,500 deductible for in-network... That's basically upwards of $12K...

Anything in the HMO department is basically $2K+ per month...

Here's the list (http://www.state.nj.us/dobi/division_insurance/ihcseh/ihcratepage_sp.pdf)

It's always blows my mind to hear what people are paying for insurance in other states. My wife and I have our own policy through BCBS and it's $320 a month. It was $335/month but they lowered it a year or so ago. Plus 2 months ago the sent me a $400 check rebate or something, I didn't question it.

[Wild Cobra]

It's always blows my mind to hear what people are paying for insurance in other states. My wife and I have our own policy through BCBS and it's $320 a month. It was $335/month but they lowered it a year or so ago. Plus 2 months ago the sent me a $400 check rebate or something, I didn't question it.My employer insurance runs me just a few pennies under $177/month for me and my daughter. They pay the bulk of it. It's something like a $1200 monthly policy. I could have had a cheaper policy, but choose this plan because her doctor we had before I went to work at this current job took this insurance company. I was paying this doctor out of pocket.

I have never bough health insurance by myself when I didn't have an employer option. Always paid out of pocket. Now, that I'm older, I would pay for catastrophic insurance with like a $10k deductible.

[SnakeBoy]

My employer insurance runs me just a few pennies under $177/month for me and my daughter. They pay the bulk of it. It's something like a $1200 monthly policy. I could have had a cheaper policy, but choose this plan because her doctor we had before I went to work at this current job took this insurance company. I was paying this doctor out of pocket.

I have never bough health insurance by myself when I didn't have an employer option. Always paid out of pocket. Now, that I'm older, I would pay for catastrophic insurance with like a $10k deductible.

Well the employer plans always are higher than individual policies like we have. I suppose because under group plans the insurance company is covering people at a set rate regardless of their health.

[Wild Cobra]

I can get less expensive insurance. Like I said, this is the insurance that the doctor my daughter was already seeing would take among my employer options. She has hypothyroidism, so she has regular blood tests. Five years ago, the lab work was about $100 a visit, plus the doctor visit, I forget what he charged for the visit, but it wasn't bad. Paid the bill when checking in and they had no insurance paperwork to spend time on. The medication is cheap. Not really a problem to pay out of pocket.

[Clipper Nation]

Weak, tbh.

Nah... truth bombs actually...

[ElNono]

Individual insurance is of course much higher than group insurance, and is paid for after tax.

"A new study by the Kaiser Family Foundation, a nonprofit research group that tracks employer-sponsored health insurance on a yearly basis, shows that the average annual premium for family coverage through an employer reached $15,073 in 2011, an increase of 9 percent over the previous year."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/28/business/health-insurance-costs-rise-sharply-this-year-study-shows.html?pagewanted=all

Well, when you talk insurance for seniors, you're talking individual insurance... they don't have a job for obvious reasons, not to mention that, again, they're the highest risk pool possible...

[ElNono]

It's always blows my mind to hear what people are paying for insurance in other states. My wife and I have our own policy through BCBS and it's $320 a month. It was $335/month but they lowered it a year or so ago. Plus 2 months ago the sent me a $400 check rebate or something, I didn't question it.

We can't afford it. That's the reality of it right now.

[boutons_deux]

Meet Paul Ryan: Climate Denier, Conspiracy Theorist, Koch Acolyte

A favorite of the Koch brothers, Ryan has accused scientists of engaging in conspiracy to “intentionally mislead the public on the issue of climate change.”

Paul Ryan Promoted Unfounded Conspiracy Theories About Climate Scientists. In a December 2009 op-ed during international climate talks, Ryan made reference to the hacked University of East Anglia Climatic Research Unit emails. He accused climatologists of a “perversion of the scientific method, where data were manipulated to support a predetermined conclusion,” in order to “intentionally mislead the public on the issue of climate change.” Because of spurious claims of conspiracy like these, several governmental and academic inquiries were launched, all of which found the accusations to be without merit. [Paul Ryan, 12/11/09]

Paul Ryan Argued Snow Invalidates Global Warming Policy. In the same anti-science, anti-scientist December 2009 op-ed, Ryan argued, “Unilateral economic restraint in the name of fighting global warming has been a tough sell in our communities, where much of the state is buried under snow.” Ryan’s line is especially disingenuous because he hasn’t been trying to sell climate action, he’s been spreading disinformation. [Paul Ryan, 12/11/09]

Paul Ryan Voted To Eliminate EPA Limits On Greenhouse Pollution. Ryan voted in favor of H.R. 910, introduced in 2011 by Rep. Fred Upton (R-MI) to block the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency from regulating greenhouse gas pollution. [Roll Call 249, 4/7/11]

Paul Ryan Voted To Block The USDA From Preparing For Climate Change. In 2011, Ryan voted in favor of the Scalise (R-LA) Amendment to the FY12 Agriculture Appropriations bill, to bar the U.S. Department of Agriculture from implementing its Climate Protection Plan. [Roll Call 448, 6/16/11]

Paul Ryan Voted To Eliminate White House Climate Advisers. Ryan voted in favor of Scalise (R-LA) Amendment 204 to the 2011 Continuing Resolution, to eliminate the assistant to the president for energy and climate change, the special envoy for climate change (Todd Stern), and the special adviser for green jobs, enterprise and innovation. [Roll Call 87, 2/17/11]

Paul Ryan Voted To Eliminate ARPA-E. Ryan voted in favor of Biggert (R-IL) Amendment 192 to the 2011 Continuing Resolution, to eliminate the Department of Energy’s Advanced Research Projects Agency (ARPA-E). [Roll Call 55, 2/17/11]

Paul Ryan Voted To Eliminate Light Bulb Efficiency Standards. In 2011, Ryan voted to roll back light-bulb efficiency standards that had reinvigorated the domestic lighting industry and that significantly reduce energy waste and carbon pollution. [Roll Call 563, 7/12/11]

Paul Ryan Voted For Keystone XL. In 2011, Ryan voted to expedite the consideration and approval of the construction and operation of the Keystone XL tar sands pipeline. [Roll Call 650, 7/26/11]

Paul Ryan Budget Kept Big Oil Subsidies And Slashed Clean Energy Investment. House Budget Committee Chairman Paul Ryan’s (R-WI) proposed FY 2013 budget resolution retained a decade’s worth of oil tax breaks worth $40 billion, while slashing funding for investments in clean energy research, development, deployment, and commercialization, along with other energy programs. The plan called for a $3 billion cut in energy programs in FY 2013 alone. [CAP, 3/20/12]

http://truth-out.org/news/item/10855-meet-paul-ryan-climate-denier-conspiracy-theorist-koch-acolyte

[boutons_deux]

The hits keep comin

Flashback: Paul Ryan’s Big Oil Budget Halts Clean Energy Innovation

It retains $40 billion in Big Oil tax loopholes while completely eliminating investments in the clean energy technologies of the future

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2012/08/12/679621/flashback-paul-ryans-big-oil-budget-halts-clean-energy-innovation/

[boutons_deux]

Romney Campaign Doubles Down: He ‘Would Have Signed’ The Ryan Budget

TOP ROMNEY ADVISER ED GILLESPIE: Well, as Governor Romney has made clear, if the Romney, sorry, if the Ryan budget had come to his desk as a budget, he would have signed it, of course, and one of the reasons that he chose Congressman Ryan is his willingness to put forward innovative solutions in the budget.

RNC CHAIRMAN REINCE PREIBUS: First of all, he did embrace the Ryan budget. He embraced it.

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2012/08/12/678941/romney-embraced-ryan-budget/

[ElNono]

derp

[AFBlue]

Nah... truth bombs actually...

He's been running an economy-focused general election campaign almost from the moment Obama took office. I get your dig, but it just doesn't apply to his campaign.

Also, I'll accept that defense spending will increase in a Romney administration. But I guarantee the budget and the size of government (people and programs) will be smaller than an Obama-led government. So, my statement if a smaller government holds true.

Turns out your truth bombs were duds.

[baseline bum]

LOL small government only means gutting the safety net.

[SnakeBoy]

We can't afford it. That's the reality of it right now.

Are you saying you couldn't afford $320 per month?

[ElNono]

Are you saying you couldn't afford $320 per month?

No, I was talking the circa $900/mo...

[SnakeBoy]

No, I was talking the circa $900/mo...

Oh ok. Yeah that's really high. Too bad the Dems don't want to allow you to buy across state lines.

[ElNono]

Oh ok. Yeah that's really high. Too bad the Dems don't want to allow you to buy across state lines.

yeah, much cheaper in philly too... that said, wife has a pre-existing condition, so i doubt we would qualify for any cheap deal even after 2014...

[Clipper Nation]

He's been running an economy-focused general election campaign almost from the moment Obama took office.
Yet he chose a running mate whose economic plan involves increasing the deficit by $4 trillion over the next ten years, and whose idea for balancing the budget just kicks the can down the road for the next thirty years, tbh... that plan makes no significant cuts, and only serves to funnel money otherwise going to social programs to the military instead, when we need to instead be ending our unaffordable "world police" act...

[boutons_deux]

Oh ok. Yeah that's really high. Too bad the Dems don't want to allow you to buy across state lines.

States have regulated health and car insurance for decades.

Along credit card business across state line allows the cc companies to ignore state anti-usury laws and charge 24%/year.

[boutons_deux]

Romney falling behind in polls. Will Paul Ryan help?

Recent polls have Mitt Romney slipping behind President Obama – including among men and suburbanites. Running mate Paul Ryan could help, but so far he's largely unknown to voters.

The most recent CNN/ORC International poll, taken a few days before Saturday’s announcement, gives Mr. Ryan a 27-19 favorable/unfavorable rating with a whopping 54 percent saying they’re unsure or have never heard of him.

A Fox News poll has Obama ahead by nine points (49-40 percent). Reuters/Ipsos and CNN/ORC give Obama a seven-point lead – 49-42 percent and 52-45 percent respectively.

Still, the latest Monitor/TIPP poll shows a widening lead for Obama.

A survey of 828 registered voters has Obama ahead 46-39 percent. A month earlier, the Monitor/TIPP poll showed them virtually even.

Within the most recent numbers there are some interesting demographic highlights.

Romney has lost his advantage among men (who now favor Obama 47-41 percent), and he’s seen his standing among independents go from a three-point advantage to a five-point deficit. Similarly, Romney has lost his advantage among suburban voters.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Elections/President/2012/0812/Romney-falling-behind-in-polls.-Will-Paul-Ryan-help?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+feeds%2Fcsm+%28Christian+Scie nce+Monitor+|+All+Stories%29&utm_content=Google+Reader

[baseline bum]

Running mate Paul Ryan could help, but so far he's largely unknown to voters.

Tells you how retarded American voters are to not know possibly the most important assh... person in congress.

[CosmicCowboy]

Apparently you goobers don't get it.

Ryan is not the potential POTUS.

Whatever plan he may have proposed previously is not necessarily the plan of the Republican nominee for POTUS.

DUHHHHHH

[ElNono]

Apparently you goobers don't get it.

Ryan is not the potential POTUS.

Whatever plan he may have proposed previously is not necessarily the plan of the Republican nominee for POTUS.

DUHHHHHH

Well, that's why I was saying I expect Mitt to run away from the Medicare portion of the "plan" as fast as possible... some people here disagree he can do that.

[Th'Pusher]

Apparently you goobers don't get it.

Ryan is not the potential POTUS.

Whatever plan he may have proposed previously is not necessarily the plan of the Republican nominee for POTUS.

DUHHHHHH

That does not change the fact that the plan he introduced, and Romney backed, did not specify the tax loopholes he was proposing to close in order to pay for his proposed tax cuts. Are you willing to give up your mortgage interest deduction?

[baseline bum]

Well, that's why I was saying I expect Mitt to run away from the Medicare portion of the "plan" as fast as possible... some people here disagree he can do that.

But he ran towards it

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/ryan-romney-60-minutes-interview-215906440.html

[ElNono]

But he ran towards it

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/ryan-romney-60-minutes-interview-215906440.html

you have to wonder if Mitt read Ryan's plan at all, tbh

[SnakeBoy]

But he ran towards it

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/ryan-romney-60-minutes-interview-215906440.html

What do you want to see happen with medicare? Obama's plan is to do nothing.

[baseline bum]

What do you want to see happen with medicare? Obama's plan is to do nothing.

I'd like to see it expanded to everyone and have this Obamacare tripe thrown in the garbage. What Ryan proposes is the worst-case: I pay for the Baby Boomers' Medicare and I get nothing worthwhile back from it when I hit 65.

[ElNono]

I'd like to see it expanded to everyone and have this Obamacare tripe thrown in the garbage. What Ryan proposes is the worst-case: I pay for the Baby Boomers' Medicare and I get nothing worthwhile back from it when I hit 65.

Make that 67...

[baseline bum]

Not that I think universal healthcare is realistic when the Democrats have become the Republicans and the Republicans have become the John Birch Society.

[SnakeBoy]

Not that I think universal healthcare is realistic when the Democrats have become the Republicans and the Republicans have become the John Birch Society.

Ryans plan is essentially to do away with the partial National Health Insurance model of medicare and replace it with essentially a partial Bismarck model. I don't know if that would be better, worse, the same but clearly medicare isn't going to work as is.

Funny thing to me is the GOP proposals don't go all the way to a universal healthcare plan but they do take us closer than what the Dems have done. Health insurance across state lines thus federal regulation of health insurance, vouchers for seniors and those that cannot afford health insurance. Do those things and toss in a mandate and we're freakin Germany.

[baseline bum]

Do those things and toss in a mandate and we're freakin Germany.

Not even close. Germany's healthcare system is nonprofit.

[ElNono]

Do those things and toss in a mandate and we're freakin Germany.

uh?

[SnakeBoy]

Not even close. Germany's healthcare system is nonprofit.

So, it's still the same basic model. We have plenty of non profit health insurance. If health insurance were opened up across states lines and non profits were cheaper and provided the a same or better coverage then they would come to dominate the market.

What exactly is the argument against buying health insurance across state lines? I know the left opposes it but I've never heard their reasoning as to why they oppose it.

[SnakeBoy]

uh?

uh what? That part would have to come from the democrats obviously.

I don't oppose Obamacare because of the mandate. I oppose it because it just adds another layer of mess on top of the mess of a system we currently have.

[ElNono]

So, it's still the same basic model. We have plenty of non profit health insurance. If health insurance were opened up across states lines and non profits were cheaper and provided the a same or better coverage then they would come to dominate the market.

It's not the same model at all. Germany uses strict price controls to deal with cost.

The sickness funds negotiate prices and fees with medical clinics and hospitals in a method consistent with price controls laid out by the government. The result of these negotiations is published in an online database that details the extent of medical coverage and fees associated with various procedures. Physicians collect their fees directly from the sickness funds and other services are paid for as they are administered.

Their system is closer to the VA, which also negotiates and sets strict prices for what they cover.

[ElNono]

uh what? That part would have to come from the democrats obviously.

uh? as in Germany is a completely different system, which actually addresses cost.


I don't oppose Obamacare because of the mandate. I oppose it because it just adds another layer of mess on top of the mess of a system we currently have.

I don't like Obamacare because it doesn't address cost, which is the major factor here. Neither does the Ryan plan.

[ElNono]

I should add that in Germany you can also purchase additional private insurance if you want different/better/concierge service and you can afford it.

[SnakeBoy]

uh? as in Germany is a completely different system, which actually addresses cost.


That's why I said "thus federal regulation of health insurance". I'm not saying the GOP plan is the Bismarck model, what I'm saying is that that is where I think it would ultimately lead if we went down that path. Assuming future democratic administrations added the parts the republicans would oppose.