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Winehole23
08-14-2012, 10:14 AM
Hoover administration Treasury Secretary Andrew Mellon's infamous solution for the Great Depression was liquidation, as in his call to "liquidate labor, liquidate stocks, liquidate the farmers, liquidate real estate. It will purge the rottenness out of the system."



Who would have thought, in view of the debacle ultimately engendered by Mellon's advice, that 80-odd years later, the Republican Party would again make liquidation its main election theme? But that's what Mitt Romney and his party have done by choosing Congressman Paul Ryan (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/12/us/politics/mitt-romney-names-paul-ryan-as-his-running-mate.html?pagewanted=all) as their new candidate for vice president.



Like Mellon, Ryan abhors what he calls "big government" and calls for massive reductions, abolition, and reshaping of government programs like Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and education. This is all in an effort to slay what Ryan and conservative Republicans see as the twin dragons of rising national debt and overly high taxes. In this view, taxes are stifling entrepreneurial spirit and investment while federal deficits and rising national debt are preempting capital, threatening future inflation, and thereby undermining the confidence of investors. In this view, government spending on anything except defense, which Ryan would leave largely untouched, is wasteful and deleterious to the economy and the human soul.



Of course, there is a large element of faith involved in this program. It is that cutting "big government" will automatically result in the revitalization of the U.S. economy and the resurrection of the American Dream. What neither Ryan nor Romney nor the Republican Party has done is to show exactly how this is supposed to happen. When confronted with the question of how to draw the line from trillions of dollars of reduced federal spending to millions of new jobs, they can't do more than speak of renewed "confidence" and reduced "fear" of inflation. They have faith that somehow these sentiments will translate into more production and jobs, but they don't know exactly how that might work.



Ironically, Obama and the Democrats have the same kind of faith -- only in the opposite direction. They warn of the grave risks of inadequate federal stimulus spending and of the danger of further decline in GDP growth and rises in unemployment if supplementary spending is not approved for unemployment compensation and for support of cash-strapped state-government programs. In this case, it is easier to identify the jobs that will be saved or created by the proposed spending. But there is also a faith that saving these jobs will lead to a jump-start to the economy that will also create booming new production and additional new jobs. When asked, the Democrats can no more describe exactly how these jobs will come about or from whence they shall arise than the Republicans can say the same for the slashing of spending and taxes.



The truth is high-tax, big-government countries like Sweden, Germany, and China are doing well economically and so are small-government, low-tax economies like Singapore, Hong Kong, and Switzerland. The fallacy here is the exclusive focus on macroeconomic elements and policies as the major drivers of growth an employment.



More important are globalization and competitiveness policies.



Countries like Germany, China, Singapore, and South Korea that make being competitive a high national priority and that develop structural policies for ensuring their presence in key industries rather than taking job creation on faith tend to do well. Those, like the United States and Britain with a more high-faith approach, tend not to do as well.



The great shame of the U.S. presidential election so far is that neither party is focusing on the main game -- real jobs for real people.
http://prestowitz.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/08/13/ryans_faith_based_economics

DarrinS
08-14-2012, 10:20 AM
Stopped reading after this.



Like Mellon, Ryan abhors what he calls "big government" and calls for massive reductions, abolition, and reshaping of government programs like Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and education.

DarrinS
08-14-2012, 10:22 AM
I did like how big government was in quotes.

Winehole23
08-14-2012, 10:24 AM
count me unsurprised. do you only read to hear your own thoughts echoed?

Winehole23
08-14-2012, 10:25 AM
I did like how big government was in quotes.Ryan was a big booster of the expansion of big government under Bush, if you go by his voting record.

DarrinS
08-14-2012, 10:31 AM
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/apr/20/democratic-congressional-campaign-committee/democrats-say-republicans-voted-end-medicare-and-c/

Winehole23
08-14-2012, 10:34 AM
that's barely germane to the main thrust of the article. you're picking an ideological nit, which I guess is what you mainly do.

DarrinS
08-14-2012, 10:39 AM
that's barely germane to the main thrust of the article. you're picking an ideological nit, which I guess is what you mainly do.

Like I said, didn't read it. Shouldn't have even started reading it, based on the title of your thread. My bad. Carry on.

Winehole23
08-14-2012, 10:40 AM
Obama and the Dems come in for the same criticism. Guess you missed that part.

George Gervin's Afro
08-14-2012, 12:26 PM
Obama and the Dems come in for the same criticism. Guess you missed that part.

you give him to much credit

I'd like an explanation as to how cutting trillions in spending while reducing taxes will suddenly " make the economy grow "..

Please save the " get the govt out of the way.." bullshit.. I would like Darrins to tell me speficially how his theory is going to work.

EVAY
08-14-2012, 12:57 PM
The most important thing in the article to me was the author pointing out that some of the most successful world economies are also big government economies...it is not the size that matters, but the issue of whether or not, or to what extent, there is a common goal toward being competitive in certain industries.

That is an area where it seems possible that the U.S. insistence on rugged individualism is harming us vis-a-vis other countries.

Remember Nash's game theory? It might be useful to bring that to bear on this issue.

Winehole23
08-14-2012, 01:02 PM
Remember Nash's game theory? It might be useful to bring that to bear on this issue.unfamiliar. nutshell?

boutons_deux
08-14-2012, 01:03 PM
"most successful world economies are also big government economies."

A huge horse laff was Gecko in Poland complimenting Poland's huge economic growth, while Polish govt dominates that economy. Gecko, dumb as shit.

Big Government does pretty damn well PRC.

baseline bum
08-14-2012, 01:08 PM
unfamiliar. nutshell?

One acting in only his self-interest can often lead to non-optimal outcomes for not only society, but also himself. For instance, the prisoner's dilemma situation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma

If you're interested, Yale has an entire videotaped course on game theory available online.
http://oyc.yale.edu/economics/econ-159#sessions

Winehole23
08-14-2012, 01:09 PM
thanks, BB :tu

DarrinS
08-14-2012, 01:18 PM
Compare and contrast the governments and economies of California and Texas.

boutons_deux
08-14-2012, 01:21 PM
CA can vote themselves into a tax hole. Chinese can't vote.

Winehole23
08-14-2012, 01:27 PM
Compare and contrast the governments and economies of California and Texas.you first. cat got your tongue?

Winehole23
08-14-2012, 01:28 PM
like, did you have a point?

Winehole23
08-14-2012, 01:29 PM
then you can explain how a solitary comparison of two states within a country can be applied universally to all nations of the world.

DarrinS
08-14-2012, 01:45 PM
then you can explain how a solitary comparison of two states within a country can be applied universally to all nations of the world.


Why does it have to apply to other nations of the world? Do these other nations have our same issues?

Winehole23
08-14-2012, 01:51 PM
contextually, that was the trend of the discussion. you must not have been paying attention.

Winehole23
08-14-2012, 01:52 PM
my bad. I thought you were following along.

Winehole23
08-14-2012, 01:52 PM
btw, what was your point?

DarrinS
08-14-2012, 01:55 PM
btw, what was your point?

California is the mecca for progressive policies and look what it has done to their economy. Contrast that with Texas.

Winehole23
08-14-2012, 01:59 PM
partisan politics explain everything? trenchant.

ChumpDumper
08-14-2012, 02:06 PM
California is the mecca for progressive policies and look what it has done to their economy.I'd probably go with Scandinavian countries for mecca status. How are they doing?

DarrinS
08-14-2012, 02:23 PM
I'd probably go with Scandinavian countries for mecca status. How are they doing?

Meh, the combined economies of Sweden, Norway, and Denmark are about the same as Texas' economy.

DarrinS
08-14-2012, 02:25 PM
partisan politics explain everything? trenchant.

It's simple. If you make it a pain in the ass to do business in your state (by heavy taxation and regulation), companies will go elsewhere.

Winehole23
08-14-2012, 02:29 PM
I wasn't aware companies were fleeing New York and California en masse. I don't suppose you have any evidence of this happening.

ElNono
08-14-2012, 02:29 PM
California is the mecca for progressive policies and look what it has done to their economy. Contrast that with Texas.

still #1 economy in the country... New York is pretty blue too, and how's it doing compared to Texas?

Apparently, party colors alone don't tell the whole story. I know, shocking!.

ChumpDumper
08-14-2012, 02:35 PM
Meh, the combined economies of Sweden, Norway, and Denmark are about the same as Texas' economy.But how are they doing as the meccas of progressive policies, Darrin?

DarrinS
08-14-2012, 02:42 PM
But how are they doing as the meccas of progressive policies, Darrin?


When you have an apples-apples comparison, let me know.

DarrinS
08-14-2012, 02:44 PM
I wasn't aware companies were fleeing New York and California en masse. I don't suppose you have any evidence of this happening.



still #1 economy in the country... New York is pretty blue too, and how's it doing compared to Texas?

Apparently, party colors alone don't tell the whole story. I know, shocking!.



This is a useful tool --> http://www.google.com/

boutons_deux
08-14-2012, 02:49 PM
Meh, the combined economies of Sweden, Norway, and Denmark are about the same as Texas' economy.

sweden 9.5 M people,

norway 6 M

denmark 5.5
==========
21 M

now look up the GDP and/or income per capita and get back to us how HUGE govt/social democracies are so much worse than TX govt.

TeyshaBlue
08-14-2012, 02:51 PM
http://www.nctimes.com/article_be130984-2fe2-52f1-b49e-3cc2e28fbe70.html

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/moved-342887-companies-texas.html

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2011/06/companies-leaving-california-in-record.html

Winehole23
08-14-2012, 02:54 PM
thanks, TB

ChumpDumper
08-14-2012, 03:00 PM
When you have an apples-apples comparison, let me know.I wasn't asking for a comparison of anything, Darrin.

I was asking how these meccas of progressive policies were doing.

I know you're scared.

TeyshaBlue
08-14-2012, 03:09 PM
thanks, TB

Another look....

Yep they're leaving. And yep, they're being replaced.

http://www.ecovote.org/blog/studies-not-stories-businesses-are-not-leaving-california

Winehole23
08-14-2012, 03:12 PM
so, not so simple. things seldom are. appreciate the knock on post.

ElNono
08-14-2012, 03:15 PM
This is a useful tool --> http://www.google.com/

I did... came up with this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP

EVAY
08-14-2012, 05:18 PM
I did... came up with this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP

Superb find, E-N.

I just regret the thread being hijacked into another 'Texas vs. California' battle.

for god's sake, I just wish Texas would go ahead and secede. I'm sick of the chauvinism.

symple19
08-14-2012, 05:59 PM
California is the mecca for progressive policies and look what it has done to their economy. Contrast that with Texas.

a misguided referendum system coupled with the need for a 2/3 majority on budgets is why cali is fucked. Republicans (while even though a perpetual minority) are as responsible for those problems as the multitude of left-wing nutjobs.

Extremism is the norm in the golden state, on both sides, due to one of the worst redistricting jobs in our country.

I will grant you that large special interest groups, mostly liberal, have also done their fair share of damage (service workers/teachers/etc).

But, your argument is still retarded

symple19
08-14-2012, 06:04 PM
I wasn't aware companies were fleeing New York and California en masse.

It's been 3 years since I was living in Cali, but I can tell you with certainty that many businesses, especially manufacturing, were fleeing in the late 2000's, to the point that Oregon and Nevada were running ads in the state trying to lure companies away.

Toyota closed their plant in the East Bay, meaning there are no longer any large car manufacturing operations in the whole state (IIRC)

Hell, the Lighting company I worked for in the mid 2000's closed up shop and moved to NC.

That's just off the top of my head.

Couldn't tell you about New York

Winehole23
08-14-2012, 06:10 PM
don't doubt it, but Darrin has a studied preference for PFA analysis. (TB has two relevant posts upstream.)

symple19
08-14-2012, 06:11 PM
don't doubt it, but Darrin has a studied preference for PFA analysis. (TB has two relevant posts upstream.)

I know, lol

didn't see the previous posts that were relevant...thanks

Clipper Nation
08-14-2012, 08:32 PM
I'd like an explanation as to how cutting trillions in spending while reducing taxes will suddenly " make the economy grow "..
Wow, I see idiots like Paul Ryan have roped in another sucker, tbh...

:lol Thinking that sequestrations are the same thing as spending cuts

Ignignokt
08-14-2012, 09:21 PM
Govts dont create wealth, they only extract it.

boutons_deux
08-15-2012, 12:00 AM
Govts dont create wealth, they only extract it.

bullshit

Wild Cobra
08-15-2012, 03:27 AM
bullshit
Please then, explain how government creates wealth.

This should be good... hearing a -bot- version...

boutons_deux
08-15-2012, 05:50 AM
your beloved MIC is piling up $100Bs in wealth transferred from taxpayers.