How The American University was Killed, in Five Easy Steps

[boutons_deux]

First, you defund public higher education.

Second, you deprofessionalize and impoverish the professors (and continue to create a surplus of underemployed and unemployed Ph.D.s)

Step #3: You move in a managerial/administrative class who take over governance of the university.

Step Four: You move in corporate culture and corporate money

Step Five – Destroy the Students

http://junctrebellion.wordpress.com/2012/08/12/how-the-american-university-was-killed-in-five-easy-steps/

Seems accurate, with the UVa controversy of a couple months ago where corporate types fired the President Teresa Sullivan, and then were forced to rehire her. Although by one measure, UVa is one of the best:

http://www.kiplinger.com/slideshow/public-colleges-with-highest-graduation-rate-2012/2.html

[TDMVPDPOY]

but isnt university courses still dirt cheap in the usa?

[baseline bum]

^ :lol what?

[Clipper Nation]

but isnt university courses still dirt cheap in the usa?

:lmao

[AussieFanKurt]

I thought university was fucking expensive as all hell. Even just run of the mill colleges?

[Wild Cobra]

If the government would stop subsidizing them as much, and they had to enroll students with supply and demand... for the costs... the cost would go down!

[ElNono]

If the government would stop subsidizing them as much, and they had to enroll students with supply and demand... for the costs... the cost would go down!

That makes no sense, unless you're stating education would suffer in that scenario. Would you please elaborate?

[Wild Cobra]

That makes no sense, unless you're stating education would suffer in that scenario. Would you please elaborate?

Why?

You'll just disagree with me anyway. You always find reason to disagree with me.

There are several facets of it. Without getting into detail, I would ask you to consider that first, we are graduating more students in most fields than there are jobs for. This gives employers the advantage for supply and demand and lowers wages of new hires. For some dumb reason, the universities always are able to fill the classes. Less help from the government would make it harder to fill the classes and the universities... supply and demand again... would lower the costs.

It doesn't end there.

Don't you get it? Almost anything the government gets involved in ends up costing more money. The job market doesn't need as many college graduates as we have, and it comes to a point where the menial jobs are going to college students instead of those with only high school, or even high school dropouts.

What's the point of going to college if you can only find jobs that don't require college? Many people are in that boat because the government makes it possible for almost everybody to go to college.

We need less government aid to anyone and more scholarship programs that are merit based. I would government aid should be limited to a specific GPA and above. Perhaps 3.0+.

Right now, we have too many students going into severe debt that have no means of paying for it when they graduate. this will probably never change as long as the government makes it so easy for average and below average people to get a college degree.

[Jacob1983]

College is overrated.

[Wild Cobra]

College is overrated.
In many job field, it is. What gets me is everyone thinks they are entitled college. Imagine this country if everyone got 16 years of school. Now the good jobs would require 20 years. Where does it end?

[boutons_deux]

I thought university was fucking expensive as all hell. Even just run of the mill colleges?

the cost cost many private universities has risen with at the same rate as corporate executive pay or health care over the past 30 years.

A year costs $50K to $60K

They raise their tuition just because they can.

The average grad carries about $35K in debt. The avg doctor carries a lot more.

In the 1% cruelty, the Repugs want to kill Pell grants for poor people.

[boutons_deux]

"Almost anything the government gets involved in ends up costing more money."

Except the big one, health care. Costs less, happier patients than for-profit insurers. Repug corporate welfare Medicare Advantage cost 12% more than govt Medicare. MUST be killed, not just reduced

dubya privatized students loans as a huge $100Ms/year gift to banks. Private gain, public risk (and there's a lot of students defaulting on the govt-insured loans, banks lose nothing).

Here's what some PUBLIC colleges cost:

http://www.kiplinger.com/slideshow/public-colleges-with-highest-graduation-rate-2012/1.html?cid=32

[Wild Cobra]

In the 1% cruelty, the Repugs want to kill Pell grants for poor people.
Can you support that contention? I think not. I have never heard of repiblicans or conservatives wanting to get rid of them. Just increase the criteria.

Pell grants should only be given to students with above average grades. At least not to the bottom 50%. Why waste money on someone who won't be able to use the degree afterwards?

[boutons_deux]

Ryan's plan, which Gecko says is essentially identical to his own:

"According to an analysis by the Education Trust that was provided to the Huffington Post, the House Republican budget would ultimately knock more than one million students off of Pell Grants entirely:

More than 1 million students would lose Pell grants entirely over the next 10 years under Rep. Paul Ryan’s budget, according to an analysis that the national reform organization Education Trust provided to The Huffington Post.

And by the looks of it, the Ryan budget, which is slated to hit the House floor this week, would hit the poorest kids hardest. [...]

The budget would cut Pell grant eligibility for students who attend classes on a less-than-halftime schedule — which usually means low-income students who need to work their way through college.

And it gets worse. Sixty percent of students who receive Pell grants also take out loans — twice the rate for college students overall — so they might be doubly hit by the Ryan cuts: In addition to receiving less Pell money, they would have to start paying interest on their loans while still in school."

http://thinkprogress.org/education/2012/03/28/454043/housegot-budget-one-million-pell-grants/

some people used to work their way through college, but working for $10/hour, or usually less, full-time, that's $20K/year, but what college student works a job 40 hours/week?

Repugs had twice passed House budgets that fuck hard poor people of all ages.

After WWII, going to college on the GI Bill was quite common, since the wealthy were paying 90% marginal tax rate and ALL taxpayers were paying higher than now. Today's military assistance for college doesn't enable people to pay for college, and the 1% are paying 15% or less tax.

[boutons_deux]

Ryan was opposed to holding college loan rates low (another gift to the bankers, sucking money out of students' pockets)

Repugs IN GENERAL offer NOTHING but pain to the 99%, while protecting/enriching the 1% and corporations.

[The Reckoning]

aussies dont know..their gov pays for their uni and gives them a living allowance.

right now, my US federal loan rates are higher than private variable rates. what the fuck is going on? i could end up close to 100k in debt before it's all said and done.

[boutons_deux]

"100k in debt"

debt is how the financial sector enCHAINS people to servitude and abuse.

And student loan debt is inescapable. have a medical catastrophe, declare bankruptcy, but student debt is still with you.

[Wild Cobra]

"100k in debt"

debt is how the financial sector enCHAINS people to servitude and abuse.
It's voluntary servitude. They sign up for it. Nobody is putting a gun to their head.

[johnsmith]

Question for anyone willing to answer.....do you plan on persuading your children to go to college? I have 17 1/2 years to think about this one, but right now, I'm leaning towards no.

[Wild Cobra]

Question for anyone willing to answer.....do you plan on persuading your children to go to college? I have 17 1/2 years to think about this one, but right now, I'm leaning towards no.
Put $50 to $100 a month in a mutual fund for collage.

$100/mo at an average interest rate of 3% above inflation would be almost $28K in 17-1/2 years in today's dollars.

[The Reckoning]

if you want your child to go to a texas public school

http://www.tgtp.org/

[CosmicCowboy]

Question for anyone willing to answer.....do you plan on persuading your children to go to college? I have 17 1/2 years to think about this one, but right now, I'm leaning towards no.

Only if they have the drive to be top 5%. When my son told me he wanted to be an attorney I told him I knew a shitload of broke attorneys and if he REALLY wanted to make it he needed to bust his ass as an undergrad, kill the LSAT, and get into a top 5 law school...just graduating from St. Mary's in the top half of the class just guaranteed him a shit job doing menial clerical type law.

[The Reckoning]

...just graduating from St. Mary's in the top half of the class just guaranteed him a shit job doing menial clerical type law.


:lmao

proud father right here

[boutons_deux]

http://averagelawyersalary.net/TX/1/salary/Lawyer-Salary

The old rap on St Mary's Law was that they taught to the bar exam, not the law. Don't know if that's still true.

[CosmicCowboy]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/opinion/sunday/an-existential-crisis-for-law-schools.html?_r=2

http://www.uchastings.edu/faculty-administration/faculty/piomelli/class-website/docs/Schiltz%20-On-Being-Happy,-Healthy,-Ethical.pdf

[CosmicCowboy]

http://averagelawyersalary.net/TX/1/salary/Lawyer-Salary

The old rap on St Mary's Law was that they taught to the bar exam, not the law. Don't know if that's still true.

I know of a firm that had a ton of recent St. M graduates interviewing for an opening and they were only paying $12 an hour with no benefits.

[leemajors]

I went to UT from 95-99, and my tuition was rarely over 2k per semester, even loading up on Athletic passes/tickets and parking. My brother dropped out in 98 after two years, and went back a few years ago. It basically cost 10x as much as when we went previously. Totally and utterly ridiculous. I lived off campus, but still.

[Blake]

Question for anyone willing to answer.....do you plan on persuading your children to go to college? I have 17 1/2 years to think about this one, but right now, I'm leaning towards no.

High schools will shove the importance of college down their throat.

I'd rather stress the importance in picking a career first, then picking degree. I'm not spending money for her to get a history degree unless she has very specific plans to use it.

[coyotes_geek]

Question for anyone willing to answer.....do you plan on persuading your children to go to college? I have 17 1/2 years to think about this one, but right now, I'm leaning towards no.

My wife and I will certainly be pushing college, and we're saving money to prepare for that, but the main thing we want is for him to have a plan for how he intends to make a living.

[boutons_deux]

yep, one of the worst hit professions in the Banksters Great Depression was lawyers (the ones that weren't at the top of crime pyramid in the financial sector). 10s of 1000s of lawyers lost jobs.

But when USA has 95% of the lawyers on the planet, you have to ask why USA is so over-lawyered and litigious. Actually, with so many lawyers, they certainly go around looking for clients. so the more laywers there are, the more lawyering.

[TeyshaBlue]

Ryan's plan, which Gecko says is essentially identical to his own:

"According to an analysis by the Education Trust that was provided to the Huffington Post, the House Republican budget would ultimately knock more than one million students off of Pell Grants entirely:

More than 1 million students would lose Pell grants entirely over the next 10 years under Rep. Paul Ryan’s budget, according to an analysis that the national reform organization Education Trust provided to The Huffington Post.

And by the looks of it, the Ryan budget, which is slated to hit the House floor this week, would hit the poorest kids hardest. [...]

The budget would cut Pell grant eligibility for students who attend classes on a less-than-halftime schedule — which usually means low-income students who need to work their way through college.

And it gets worse. Sixty percent of students who receive Pell grants also take out loans — twice the rate for college students overall — so they might be doubly hit by the Ryan cuts: In addition to receiving less Pell money, they would have to start paying interest on their loans while still in school."

http://thinkprogress.org/education/2012/03/28/454043/housegot-budget-one-million-pell-grants/

some people used to work their way through college, but working for $10/hour, or usually less, full-time, that's $20K/year, but what college student works a job 40 hours/week?

Repugs had twice passed House budgets that fuck hard poor people of all ages.

After WWII, going to college on the GI Bill was quite common, since the wealthy were paying 90% marginal tax rate and ALL taxpayers were paying higher than now. Today's military assistance for college doesn't enable people to pay for college, and the 1% are paying 15% or less tax.

lol Repugs. An estimated 1 million losses over 10 years...bout 100k/year. The enlightened progressives clearly have taken an early lead in the cut-a-thon.

http://www.dailycal.org/2012/03/22/house-republicans-propose-changes-to-pell-grants-student-loans/

"However, the federal government has already made recent cuts to federal financial aid. In December, President Barack Obama signed a legislative compromise that tightened eligibility requirements for Pell Grant recipients, cutting Pell Grants for an estimated 100,000 students nationwide"

Personally, I would like to see a broader plan put in place than Pell. It can be difficult to qualify under some Pell guidelines and with a $5,500 annual cap, it's not even remotely comprehensive. Students have to string together many different funding sources. Of the 3 kids I've put through college (only 2 more to go:depressed.), none have relied solely on a Pell grant. Hell, the average grant is only $2900. The implication that cutting Pell would doom 1 million students is asinine and intellectually dishonest...bout what you would expect from Fox News or Thinkprogress. lol

[boutons_deux]

Repugs have cut Pell grant program since coming into power in 2010 (along with -25% heating oil support for poor people), so there is NO DOUBT if Gecko/Ryan win along with a Repug Congress, Ryan's refusal to specify which spendnig cuts will pay for the tax cuts for the 1% and corps will very clearly fall on Pell as well as all the other safety net programs. NO FUCKING DOUBT

[TeyshaBlue]

The implication that cutting Pell would doom 1 million students is asinine and intellectually dishonest...bout what you would expect from Fox News or Thinkprogress. lol

[boutons_deux]

TB :lol

[spursncowboys]

My kids are going to any college they want for free... But only if they get a degree that pays them right out of college, above poverty level.

I think if people put 50k in a psychology, english, or art degree and cannot find work, then that's their problem.

[SA210]

One of the biggest frauds/rip offs are the cost of books. Amazing how they get away with that crap. 1 to 2 bills for a frickin book! Add em all up and daaaaamn.

What a frickin scam.

[Venti Quattro]

I'd enroll my kids in UTSA. loljk

[LnGrrrR]

For some dumb reason, the universities always are able to fill the classes. Less help from the government would make it harder to fill the classes and the universities... supply and demand again... would lower the costs.


That makes no sense, unless you're stating education would suffer in that scenario. Would you please elaborate?

WC, you could've just said "Yes education would suffer". That would've been much shorter.

And boy, I wonder why all those dummies are taking college classes? :lmao

[LnGrrrR]

Question for anyone willing to answer.....do you plan on persuading your children to go to college? I have 17 1/2 years to think about this one, but right now, I'm leaning towards no.

Yes, not even a question.

[Venti Quattro]

Unless you have a superpower or talents that will get you millions instantly, go to college.

People in the hoodz all dream of getting into college, and you shouldn't waste that opportunity.

[leemajors]

One of the biggest frauds/rip offs are the cost of books. Amazing how they get away with that crap. 1 to 2 bills for a frickin book! Add em all up and daaaaamn.

What a frickin scam.

The scam is the sellback at 25-50% of cost tbh.

[LnGrrrR]

The scam is the sellback at 25-50% of cost tbh.

I just keep them. Who knows, I may actually need to reference them one day.

[leemajors]

I just keep them. Who knows, I may actually need to reference them one day.

I kept a lot of literary anthologies, but little else.

[baseline bum]

One of the biggest frauds/rip offs are the cost of books. Amazing how they get away with that crap. 1 to 2 bills for a frickin book! Add em all up and daaaaamn.

What a frickin scam.

Check this shit; it's ridiculous.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115596



This is amazing; I was on Amazon looking for a copy of one of my favorite books of all time, Structure and Interpretation of Computer programs, and I saw two copies of the book that looked almost identical except the cover on sale for wildly different prices.

Book 1
http://www.amazon.com/Structure-Interpretation-Computer-Programs-Second/dp/0070004846/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233284221&sr=8-1
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AJV8G0ZTL._SL500_AA240_.jpg
Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, Second Edition (Hardcover)
by Harold Abelson, Gerald Jay Sussman
Hardcover: 657 pages
Publisher: McGraw-Hill Science/Engineering/Math; 2 edition (August 1, 1996)
Language: English
$111.60

Book 2
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41CPGEDXMDL._SL500_AA240_.jpg
Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs - 2nd Edition (MIT Electrical Engineering and Computer Science)
by Harold Abelson, Gerald Jay Sussman
Hardcover: 657 pages
Publisher: The MIT Press; 2 edition (July 25, 1996)
Language: English
$59.04

I was in shock. The exact same edition of the same book, both hardcovers, and one is twice as much. Then I read the critique from a Caltech professor whose class uses this book:



http://www.amazon.com/Press-edition-McGraw-Hills-131/forum/FxEVZS18MMXLUH/Tx2T565ZJTXVMWN/1/ref=cm_cd_ef_tft_tp?_encoding=UTF8&asin=0262011530

As I tell my students, the MIT press version uses dark blue ink (really violet) on the cover, whereas the McGraw-Hill book uses light blue ink. Obviously, light blue ink is so much more expensive than dark blue ink as to more than double the price of the entire book.

Snark aside, the real reason is that textbook publishers gouge the textbook-buying public, and specifically the bulk-buyers. I tried to bulk-buy the MIT Press version, hoping to save money for my students, but I was told that only the McGraw-Hill version could be purchased in bulk (e.g. 100 copies at a time, for a course). I find this system reprehensible, but don't blame the authors; they've put the entire contents of the book on the MIT Press website where it can be read for free. I've met two of the authors and they are wonderful people.

Note that there is exactly zero, zip, nada difference between the two editions. They are identical except for the cover.


Sickening. Like the prof said, this book is completely free to read online; one of the authors, Hal Abelson, is the founder of the Free Software Foundation (Its most famous work is in funding the GNU project; the one that has given us all GNU/Linux for free both as in free beer and as in freedom). The other author, Sussman, is also a member of the FSF and publishes his texts online for free also. It's certainly not greed of the authors causing this shit.

Here's the full book online; if you have any interest in computer science, this is maybe the best book ever written on the subject.
http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html

Fuck you McGraw-Hill.


http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/7150Mq2hHXL._AA300_.jpg

[Yonivore]

Check this shit; it's ridiculous.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115596

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/7150Mq2hHXL._AA300_.jpg
It's a free market.

[TeyshaBlue]

It's a free market.

This "free market" is a fairly recent phenomenon. You couldn't source books over the internet when I was getting raped by the college bookstore.:ihit

[baseline bum]

LOL free market. In free market fantasy land the McGraw-Hill book should be a lot cheaper in bulk due to economies of scale.

[Yonivore]

LOL free market. In free market fantasy land the McGraw-Hill book should be a lot cheaper in bulk due to economies of scale.
In a free market, the product is worth whatever people are willing to pay.

[TeyshaBlue]

So then, it's not a free market. Willing to <> forced to.

[baseline bum]

So then, it's not a free market. Willing to <> forced to.

Students are free to drop out dumbass, gfy

[TeyshaBlue]

Students are free to drop out dumbass, gfy

Shup! You're just mad cause your books cost more.


Picture books are always more expensive.

[baseline bum]

Ooops, sorry; wrong troll

[Yonivore]

So then, it's not a free market. Willing to <> forced to.
Who's forcing you?

[SA210]

Check this shit; it's ridiculous.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115596



http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/7150Mq2hHXL._AA300_.jpg


I knew it! Frickin horrible corrupt pieces of shit.

:pctoss

[TeyshaBlue]

Ooops, sorry; wrong troll

:lol

[TeyshaBlue]

Who's forcing you?

Course requires textbook. College Bookstore is the only outlet.
Captive markets are the antithesis of free market.

[Yonivore]

Course requires textbook. College Bookstore is the only outlet.
Captive markets are the antithesis of free market.
Did you voluntarily take the course?

You're not captive. You chose to be a student.

And, in the case of the book mentioned earlier; that there were two different prices tells me there are free market forces at work.

[CosmicCowboy]

The road to getting filthy stinking rich as an academic is to teach a class at a major state school that everyone is required to take, and then write your own textbook. My American history prof did that...he taught 5 lectures per semester, 300-400 per lecture. His book was by far the most expensive book I ever had to buy in 4 years. He warned you on day one that he did not lecture from the book and you were required to know the book and his lecture topics and that you would fail if you did not buy the book.

[TeyshaBlue]

The road to getting filthy stinking rich as an academic is to teach a class at a major state school that everyone is required to take, and then write your own textbook. My American history prof did that...he taught 5 lectures per semester, 300-400 per lecture. His book was by far the most expensive book I ever had to buy in 4 years. He warned you on day one that he did not lecture from the book and you were required to know the book and his lecture topics and that you would fail if you did not buy the book.

Yeah, I had a contrapuntal part-writing text book I had to buy that was authored by my professor. 2x the price of the standard text.

[TeyshaBlue]

Did you voluntarily take the course?

You're not captive. You chose to be a student.

And, in the case of the book mentioned earlier; that there were two different prices tells me there are free market forces at work.

Hence my caveat, "recent development", and it's certainly not the case in some instances as illustrated by CC and myself.

[baseline bum]

Luckily in a lot of my classes (especially the math department) the professors would use $10 paperbacks and $10-$15 photocopies of out of print textbooks. In CS some times we'd use professional books that were half the price of typical textbooks. I have to admit, I did really love one of my 1000 page textbooks though.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41kXXE4mAKL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Algorithms-Thomas-H-Cormen/dp/0262033844/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1345492083&sr=8-1&keywords=introduction+to+algorithms)

Can't think of any other thick textbook I really liked though.... maybe Lang's Algebra was ok I guess.

[CosmicCowboy]

Luckily in a lot of my classes (especially the math department) the professors would use $10 paperbacks and $10-$15 photocopies of out of print textbooks. In CS some times we'd use professional books that were half the price of typical textbooks. I have to admit, I did really love one of my 1000 page textbooks though.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41kXXE4mAKL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Algorithms-Thomas-H-Cormen/dp/0262033844/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1345492083&sr=8-1&keywords=introduction+to+algorithms)

Can't think of any other thick textbook I really liked though.... maybe Lang's Algebra was ok I guess.

I gotta respect that you loved math. I just viewed it as an ends to a means (Architect/Engineering major) and slugged through it giving it the least effort necessary to make the grades I needed. That attitude is probably why I have forgotten 9/10 of it over the years.

[Blake]

The road to getting filthy stinking rich as an academic is to teach a class at a major state school that everyone is required to take, and then write your own textbook. My American history prof did that...he taught 5 lectures per semester, 300-400 per lecture. His book was by far the most expensive book I ever had to buy in 4 years. He warned you on day one that he did not lecture from the book and you were required to know the book and his lecture topics and that you would fail if you did not buy the book.

Every couple of years they add a few new facts to the book, making 2nd, 3rd,4th, etc Edition books, which of course forces all students to buy them new instead of used.

[Blake]

Did you voluntarily take the course?

You're not captive. You chose to be a student.

And, in the case of the book mentioned earlier; that there were two different prices tells me there are free market forces at work.

It's price gouging. Even though there is no formal way to prove it, we all know it.

[johnsmith]

Yes, not even a question.

Yeah, I suppose that it still makes sense to send them when you can afford it and have saved for it.


Having said that, I just hope my daughter ends up more mature than I was at 18 years old and doesn't think of it as a 4 to 5 year party. The way I treated college made it that much harder when I got out to find a good job.....and I ended up getting lucky.

[Jacob1983]

I said college is overrated because in my opinion there's more risk than reward. American society and culture has brainwashed kids and the youth into thinking that a college degree equates a better life and higher status in society. That's bullshit if you ask me. You don't need a piece of fuckin' paper that said you went to some university or college and graduated to be successful. College isn't for everyone. Honestly, you should only go if you have a strong passion for whatever you want to major in and have a high intelligence and basically have a talent or a gift.
Besides, what is so bad with going to a trade school or starting your own business?
Fuck, mechanics and electricians make more a year than most recent college graduates yet people look down on mecahnics, electricians, and plumbers. I don't because most of them are good at what they do. Mechanics, electricians, and plumbers have a gift or a talent in my opinion. After all of the work that has been done to my hand me down car, I have much respect for mechanics.

If you were going to go to college straight out of high school, I would suggest a community college then transfer over to a university. Don't live on campus and don't buy any shit that you don't need. Honestly, you should only pay for textbooks, the classes, and a parking permit.

[Yonivore]

It's price gouging. Even though there is no formal way to prove it, we all know it.
Don't pay it. And, there's no such thing as price gouging.

[TeyshaBlue]

I said college is overrated because in my opinion there's more risk than reward. American society and culture has brainwashed kids and the youth into thinking that a college degree equates a better life and higher status in society. That's bullshit if you ask me. You don't need a piece of fuckin' paper that said you went to some university or college and graduated to be successful. College isn't for everyone. Honestly, you should only go if you have a strong passion for whatever you want to major in and have a high intelligence and basically have a talent or a gift.
Besides, what is so bad with going to a trade school or starting your own business?
Fuck, mechanics and electricians make more a year than most recent college graduates yet people look down on mecahnics, electricians, and plumbers. I don't because most of them are good at what they do. Mechanics, electricians, and plumbers have a gift or a talent in my opinion. After all of the work that has been done to my hand me down car, I have much respect for mechanics.

If you were going to go to college straight out of high school, I would suggest a community college then transfer over to a university. Don't live on campus and don't buy any shit that you don't need. Honestly, you should only pay for textbooks, the classes, and a parking permit.

Aside from worthless degrees, having a college degree absolutely opens doors that would not otherwise be open. My current job required a degree. My degree has nothing whatsoever to do with my current duties, but I couldn't even interview for the position without it.

This is not unique to my current job either. The last 2 jobs I've had were exactly the same. I've only had 3 jobs since I left education almost 15 years ago now.

[TeyshaBlue]

Don't pay it. And, there's no such thing as price gouging.

You're insane now.

[Yonivore]

Aside from worthless degrees, having a college degree absolutely opens doors that would not otherwise be open. My current job required a degree. My degree has nothing whatsoever to do with my current duties, but I couldn't even interview for the position without it.

This is not unique to my current job either. The last 2 jobs I've had were exactly the same. I've only had 3 jobs since I left education almost 15 years ago now.
I don't know how long you've held your current position but, college degrees aren't the currency they once were. And, the bolded part is the reason why. People graduate college with worthless degrees that are irrelevant to the jobs they eventually hold. Business is figuring that out.

And, in the current job market, being employable seems to be more valuable than a college degree, otherwise, there wouldn't be 99-weekers with master and doctorates.

[CosmicCowboy]

If it's a class you are required to take for graduation you can either buy the fucking book or not graduate. It's not a choice to get screwed, it is a legitimate rape.

[Yonivore]

You're insane now.
Other than government price-fixing, name an instance of price gouging that wasn't just price point set by demand.

[Yonivore]

If it's a class you are required to take for graduation you can either buy the fucking book or not graduate. It's not a choice to get screwed, it is a legitimate rape.
It's a cost to be factored in when you choose the degree plan. If this isn't anything new, why is everyone so upset?

[Jacob1983]

You shouldn't have to put yourself in debt 50K to 100K just so you have get a piece of paper that says you graduated from a university. I know I'm beating a dead horse but it's the truth. If you're willing to sacrifice 4, 5, or sometimes 8 years of your life to get that piece of paper, why they fuck should you have to dig a hole and be buried in debt after you get that piece of paper?

[Blake]

Other than government price-fixing, name an instance of price gouging that wasn't just price point set by demand.

There is such a thing as a fucking idiot.


.. Last week, the DOJ warned Apple and the E-book publishers Simon & Schuster Inc., the Hachette Book Group, Pearson Penguin Group, Macmillan, and HarperCollins Publishers about impending charges of price-gouging and anti-trust violations.

http://www.onlinecolleges.net/2012/03/14/justice-department-to-sue-apple-and-e-book-publishers/

You are a fucking idiot.

[coyotes_geek]

Aside from worthless degrees, having a college degree absolutely opens doors that would not otherwise be open. My current job required a degree. My degree has nothing whatsoever to do with my current duties, but I couldn't even interview for the position without it.

This is not unique to my current job either. The last 2 jobs I've had were exactly the same. I've only had 3 jobs since I left education almost 15 years ago now.

I don't know how long you've held your current position but, college degrees aren't the currency they once were. And, the bolded part is the reason why. People graduate college with worthless degrees that are irrelevant to the jobs they eventually hold. Business is figuring that out.

And, in the current job market, being employable seems to be more valuable than a college degree, otherwise, there wouldn't be 99-weekers with master and doctorates.

Just because you end up in a job that doesn't directly relate to your degree doesn't mean your degree is worthless. Most engineers eventually end up in management positions.

[Yonivore]

There is such a thing as a fucking idiot.

You are a fucking idiot.
I didn't say people weren't calling stuff "price-gouging." Hell, The State of Texas has law against it. They use nebulous terms like exorbitant and excessive -- terms completely open to interpretation.

What's excessive? If I have the last widget and two people want it, why can't I sell it for as much as one of them are willing to pay?

Really, there is no such thing. Price gouging is a construct of a nanny state government wanting to make the market accessible to those who can't afford it. In a free market, people should be able to sell their products for whatever they able to get.

[TeyshaBlue]

The last widget scenario is completely void in a discussion outside of discontinued product.

[Yonivore]

Just because you end up in a job that doesn't directly relate to your degree doesn't mean your degree is worthless. Most engineers eventually end up in management positions.
It also doesn't mean it's worth anything, either.

[TeyshaBlue]

"Really, there is no such thing. Price gouging is a construct of a nanny state government wanting to make the market accessible to those who can't afford it. In a free market, people should be able to sell their products for whatever they able to get."



Sherman Act anybody?

[TeyshaBlue]

It also doesn't mean it's worth anything, either.

If it's a predicated condition to employment, it's damn well worth something.

[Yonivore]

"Really, there is no such thing. Price gouging is a construct of a nanny state government wanting to make the market accessible to those who can't afford it. In a free market, people should be able to sell their products for whatever they able to get."

Sherman Act anybody?
Collusion and monopolies, leading to artificially inflated prices, aren't the same thing; although, I really don't think there should be a law against monopolies, either.

Perhaps the public would have a different view about what necessary to live life.

[TeyshaBlue]

price gouging is a result of artificially inflating prices. If you cannot see that, you lack the vocabulary to even debate the point.

[Yonivore]

If it's a predicated condition to employment, it's damn well worth something.
But, is it worth the debt incurred?

I think it's pretty silly for companies to just have as a prerequisite the requirement for a non-specific degree. I think, as time goes by, with the notion that ALL high school graduates should go to college, companies are beginning to think it's pretty silly, as well.

There are a shit load of unemployed college graduates -- many of them graduate into unemployment.

[TeyshaBlue]

But, is it worth the debt incurred?

I think it's pretty silly for companies to just have as a prerequisite the requirement for a non-specific degree. I think, as time goes by, with the notion that ALL high school graduates should go to college, companies are beginning to think it's pretty silly, as well.

There are a shit load of unemployed college graduates -- many of them graduate into unemployment.

Stop moving the goal posts.

Now you want a cost benefit study too?

[Yonivore]

price gouging is a result of artificially inflating prices. If you cannot see that, you lack the vocabulary to even debate the point.
It's not artificial if people are willing to pay it -- that's real. You and "price gouging" law proponents are just butt hurt that the right people aren't willing to pay it.

[coyotes_geek]

It also doesn't mean it's worth anything, either.

Correct. Ergo, the worth of someone's college degree isn't determined by someone's current job duties.

[CosmicCowboy]

It's not artificial if people are willing to pay it -- that's real. You and "price gouging" law proponents are just butt hurt that the right people aren't willing to pay it.

Are we still talking about college textbooks? :wtf

[ElNono]

Nothing says "free market" like a government-sanctioned monopoly...

[Yonivore]

Nothing says "free market" like a government-sanctioned monopoly...
There are private schools.

[TeyshaBlue]

It's not artificial if people are willing to pay it -- that's real. You and "price gouging" law proponents are just butt hurt that the right people aren't willing to pay it.

Ok. It's confirmed. You lack the vocabulary to even debate the point.

[ElNono]

There are private schools.

Uh? What does that has to do with copyrights?

[coyotes_geek]

But, is it worth the debt incurred?

I think it's pretty silly for companies to just have as a prerequisite the requirement for a non-specific degree. I think, as time goes by, with the notion that ALL high school graduates should go to college, companies are beginning to think it's pretty silly, as well.

There are a shit load of unemployed college graduates -- many of them graduate into unemployment.

Sometimes it's worth it, sometimes it isn't. You can never be completely certain before actually spending the money it takes to get a degree, but I've always thought this was a good rule of thumb for someone to use. If you can't explain in four sentences or less how the degree you're going to get is going to make you money, you probably shouldn't spend the money on it.

[Blake]

Really, there is no such thing. Price gouging is a construct of a nanny state government wanting to make the market accessible to those who can't afford it. In a free market, people should be able to sell their products for whatever they able to get.

there is no such thing as a free market, except when I say there is such a thing.

/yonispeak

[TeyshaBlue]

there is no such thing as a free market, except when I say there is such a thing.

/yonispeak

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