Did TD EVER have a worst supporting cast than this?

[LkrFan]

http://freecelebritygraphics.com/images/celebs/Los%20Angeles%20Lakers/lakers_desktop_image.gif

Yet here we are...

Kobe: 5
TD: 4

Discuss sons. :downspin:

[DMC]

You mean "worse". Learn English you cocksucker.

[LkrFan]

You mean "worse". Learn English you cocksucker.

Hey that's my schtick. Get your own shit. :rollin :lmao :rollin

[Namundy]

He's also never missed the playoffs.

[LkrFan]

He's also never misses the playoffs.

Nor does he repeat as champion. :downspin:

[Namundy]

To answer your original question, no. Tim Duncan has never had that bad of a supporting cast. He's also never had an elite supporting cast like Kobe will this season. All the pressure is on LA.

[smaka]

Tim never failed with such a supporting cast as Kobrick will this year.

[ElNono]

TD would've made the playoffs.... just sayin'....

[LkrFan]

TD would've made the playoffs.... just sayin'....

With THIS supporting cast? :rollin :lmao:rollin

[ElNono]

With THIS supporting cast? :rollin :lmao:rollin

Yes :wakeup

[ElNono]

Lakerfan just used to Kobe needing to be carried... TD has been always a leader until The Decline

[LkrFan]

Yes :wakeup

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT25X-SgU_HBWUfYfqZ-W0wxm2aR_DY-M8fPKLqKt-F31Ajw12t

[LkrFan]

Yes :wakeup

No Kobe. Switch him with Kobe. They still make the playoffs? :lol

[ElNono]

No Kobe. Switch him with Kobe. They still make the playoffs? :lol

Of course. Bynum, Odom, Turiaf... that's something to work with. Plus TD was that dominant. Don't forget that season (04-05) the 8th seed in the West was Gasol's Memphis with a 45-37 record... pathetic.

But 06-07 was worse... both Lakers and GSW sneaked in as 7th and 8th seed with a 42-40 record... lol Kome the leader

[benefactor]

No Kobe. Switch him with Kobe. They still make the playoffs? :lol
I think so. They would be much better defensively and between that and the offense production Duncan would provide that would at least get them better than a 42-40 record, which was the 8 seed that year.

[Clipper Nation]

:lol Kwame, just another big man carrying Food Stamps
:lol Struggling to make the playoffs

[Clipper Nation]

BTW, Ring James carried a worse supporting cast to the Finals, tbh..... put Food Stamps on that Cavs team and the only thing they'd be winning is the lottery....

[baseline bum]

LOL Tim Duncan made the WCF with Terry Porter, Antonio Daniels, and Danny Ferry as starters and with decrepit Porter the third best player on the team.

[Jodelo]

Kobe can't lead a team, nothing new...

[Leetonidas]

Nope, although Tim would've made them look a lot better by actually getting them involved. However, while Timmy never had a supporting cast as bad as the 2007 Lakers, there are at least 3 Laker teams Kobe has been apart of that have had superior talent to anything around Tim at any point in his career

[Leetonidas]

LOL Tim Duncan made the WCF with Terry Porter, Antonio Daniels, and Danny Ferry as starters and with decrepit Porter the third best player on the team.

How soon they forget :lol some of those early 2000s Spurs teams were just awful around Duncan

[Bill_Brasky]

:lol "elite player" missing the playoffs in their prime

[Clipper Nation]

Kobe can't lead a team, nothing new...

Seriously, LOL at Lakerfan thinking they've "won" by reminding us all how horrible a teammate and leader Food Stamps truly is, tbh....

[DMX7]

KB24 is one of the best role players the game has ever seen.

[ambchang]

I would say yes. Kobe, with all his flaws, would undoubtedly be better than any of the other players Duncan ever played with.

If Duncan had those pictured players as supporting cast, he would have had at least a 3 peat, unless Kobe rapes again, and snitch to the police about Duncan paying off women all the time, and then threaten to go to the clippers.

[ambchang]

Then of course, there's odom and Bynum.

[Ryan Fitzpatrick]

lol ambchang

[DMX7]

The logic of this thread is horrible. Who won the championship in 2007?

[LkrFan]

Of course. Bynum, Odom, Turiaf... that's something to work with. Plus TD was that dominant. Don't forget that season (04-05) the 8th seed in the West was Gasol's Memphis with a 45-37 record... pathetic.

But 06-07 was worse... both Lakers and GSW sneaked in as 7th and 8th seed with a 42-40 record... lol Kome the leader

2nd year Bynum was not very good.
Odom was inconsistent as hell
Turiaf averages 5,000 fouls/minute

Like Kobe, Duncan would have had to put up monster numbers. Then he would have had to anchor the paint. Tall order IMO.

I highly doubt Duncan would have lead those misfits passed the 1st round where loaded Phoenix would have been waiting for them.

[LkrFan]

I think so. They would be much better defensively and between that and the offense production Duncan would provide that would at least get them better than a 42-40 record, which was the 8 seed that year.

Better defensively, how? Smush still would have been smoked by Nash. Duncan would have been smoked by Amare. Luke Walton v. M:loltrix? Kobe averaged 35.4ppg that year and couldn't carry that team.

Phoenix would have waxed a 2006-2007 TD lead team just like he did Kobe.

[LkrFan]

LOL Tim Duncan made the WCF with Terry Porter (Porter >> Smush), Antonio Daniels (better than Sasha V), and Danny Ferry (better than Brian Cook and rivaled inconsistent weedhead LO) as starters and with decrepit Porter the third best player on the team.

FIFY

Do you deny it? :downspin:

[LkrFan]

:lol "elite player" missing the playoffs in their prime

"GOAT PF" not repeating as Champi:loln

[dunkman]

The 2001 team was horrible. DRob clearly lost a step, DA was playing well it wasn't clear who was the second best Spur, however he got injured just before the Lakers series. Daniels and Rose were serviceable, the rest were just veterans on their last legs.

The next season arrived TP, Bowen and Jack, and the following season Manu, but the 2001 team was horrible.

Still, the Spurs had a 58:24 record and mare it to the WCF.

[ElNono]

2nd year Bynum was not very good.
Odom was inconsistent as hell
Turiaf averages 5,000 fouls/minute

There's no need to :downspin: that shit. Star players need a supporting cast. That's what Duncan has had in his prime and always made the playoffs.

Role players like Kome need somebody to carry them, and unfortunately he didn't during those years.

It's not complicated. Look at Gasol... he's been slipping the last two seasons and voila! back to back 2nd round exits...

[ElNono]

And I'm not even hating... I think it's been pretty well known Kome is a coattailer... there's no new reveal here, tbh...

[dunkman]

There's no need to :downspin: that shit. Star players need a supporting cast. That's what Duncan has had in his prime and always made the playoffs.

Role players like Kome need somebody to carry them, and unfortunately he didn't during those years.

It's not complicated. Look at Gasol... he's been slipping the last two seasons and voila! back to back 2nd round exits...

While Kobe is an incredible talent, there is something wrong with his leadership. By now that's quite evident that Shaq and than Gasol/Odom/Bynum/World carried him to his 5 'ships.

[BlackSwordsMan]

No I don't believe he did, Lkrfan. Interesting point.

[DMC]

"GOAT PF" not repeating as Champi:loln

If I shoot you in the leg, and I wait a while and shoot you again, then wait a while and shoot you again, you were shot repeatedly.

[LkrFan]

I would say yes. Kobe, with all his flaws, would undoubtedly be better than any of the other players Duncan ever played with.

If Duncan had those pictured players as supporting cast, he would have had at least a 3 peat, unless Kobe rapes again, and snitch to the police about Duncan paying off women all the time, and then threaten to go to the clippers.

First off, no Kobe in this scenario. They are basically switched. Take Kobe out, substitute with TD. How would they fare? 1st round casualty.

And :lmao at the thought of Kobe being part of TD's supporting cast.

[Trainwreck2100]

2nd year Bynum was not very good.
Odom was inconsistent as hell
Turiaf averages 5,000 fouls/minute

Like Kobe, Duncan would have had to put up monster numbers. Then he would have had to anchor the paint. Tall order IMO.

I highly doubt Duncan would have lead those misfits passed the 1st round where loaded Phoenix would have been waiting for them.

odom was always better off the bench which is where he'd be if duncan was on that team

[LkrFan]

Then of course, there's odom and Bynum.

LO was inconsistent back then. He sucked as Jermaine. When the Lakers traded for Pau and made him Tito he did alright.

Bynum was a 2nd year player with no college, AAU, and about 15 high school game under his belt.

[LkrFan]

The logic of this thread is horrible. Who won the championship in 2007?

2007*

*Horry happened if I recall correctly. :downspin:

[dbreiden83080]

Boy it's going to be funny to see this Laker team fail this year..

Old man Nash and Howard coming off back surgery are going to beat OKC and the Heat huh..

Good luck with that...

[LkrFan]

While Kobe is an incredible talent, there is something wrong with his leadership. By now that's quite evident that Shaq and than Gasol/Odom/Bynum/World carried him to his 5 'ships.

Prime Shaq wouldn't have done anything with that cast either. Remember in 1998, he had a team of Kobe, EJ, Seldom Campbell, Fox, Horry, NVE, etc., and still was swept by Utah? Remmember in 1994 when he also had a team of D Scott, Penny, Nick Anderson, etc., and still got swept by the Dream? Shaq needed help. No Kobe or D-wade (and his pinstriped buddies), no rings for Shaq. :downspin:

Quit moving the goal posts and stay on topic. :lol

[LkrFan]

Boy it's going to be funny to see this Laker team fail this year..

Old man Nash and Howard coming off back surgery are going to beat OKC and the Heat huh..

Good luck with that...

Quoting this post for future reference.

Let's not act like OKC is the 1996 Bulls. They still haven't won shit. We were a few bothched possessions away from a 3-1 lead. PG position (biggest hole): upgraded. Center position: upgraded. Worst bench in the league: upgraded. Back up SG position: upgraded.

The Heat will be one and done. They have no one who can guard D-12. Wade can't check Kobe. Nash will shit on Chalmers. Next to Kobe and anchored by Howard, I expect MWP to make life hard for Bron. The elephant in the room: Shard and Ray Allen won't do much to help them downlow with v. the best frontcourt in the game.

Try again son. :toast

[benefactor]

Better defensively, how? Smush still would have been smoked by Nash. Duncan would have been smoked by Amare. Luke Walton v. M:loltrix? Kobe averaged 35.4ppg that year and couldn't carry that team.

Phoenix would have waxed a 2006-2007 TD lead team just like he did Kobe.
Perhaps...but I didn't say they would win in the playoffs, I just said they would make it.

[Clipper Nation]

Let's not act like OKC is the 1996 Bulls.

ChokeKC is a joke tbh, but let's not pretend this Lakers team is the '96 Bulls either....

[baseline bum]

FIFY

Do you deny it? :downspin:

:lol Porter was horrible. I still remember his ''I've fallen and can't get up'' moment from game 4 of the 02 series with LA. 99-00 he was solid, but he fell off bigtime in 00-01 and was asked to run the team while being completely finished. Daniels was nowhere near as good as Vujacic, since Daniels a spectacularly bad defensive player. Ferry had the lowest release in NBA history on his 3 point shot and was useless if you put a man anywhere near him. Anderson had a grade 3 shoulder sprain that should have kept him out for a couple of months, and he played like it upon return. Rose was still a scrub, shooting 43% from the PF spot. Sean Elliott and Avery Johnson were completely finished; especially Elliott after the kidney transplant. The only teammate Duncan had who was starting quality was Robinson, and he was in pretty serious decline by 2001.

[LkrFan]

There's no need to :downspin: that shit. Star players need a supporting cast. That's what Duncan has had in his prime and always made the playoffs.

Role players like Kome need somebody to carry them, and unfortunately he didn't during those years.

It's not complicated. Look at Gasol... he's been slipping the last two seasons and voila! back to back 2nd round exits...

Was TD the clearcut best Spur during the 2007 Finals? Your answer will reveal your true colors tbh. Now:downspin: that shit.

[baseline bum]

There's no need to :downspin: that shit. Star players need a supporting cast. That's what Duncan has had in his prime and always made the playoffs.

Role players like Kome need somebody to carry them, and unfortunately he didn't during those years.

It's not complicated. Look at Gasol... he's been slipping the last two seasons and voila! back to back 2nd round exits...

Duncan had weak supporting casts in 2000 and especially 2001. Are you forgetting the Chucky Brown era?

[LkrFan]

ChokeKC is a joke tbh, but let's not pretend this Lakers team is the '96 Bulls either....

Not acting like they are either. Just stating the obvious upgrades tbh. Trust me, that 72-10 record is safe and will be for a long long time.

[LkrFan]

Duncan had weak supporting casts in 2000 and especially 2001.

Wouldn't matter if y'all had prime Admiral. No one was denying the 2001 Lakers. If not for that fluky game 1 v. AI in the Finals, they sweep through those playoffs.

[dbreiden83080]

PG position (biggest hole): upgraded. Center position: upgraded. Worst bench in the league: upgraded. Back up SG position: upgraded.


Nash is almost 40 and you might as well put a crash test dummy on the floor when he is on D.. You'll have Artest chasing Westbrook all over the court or 34 year old Kobe with a bad knee as Brown tries to hide Nash's non-existant D..

Howard on paper looks better than Bynum but he only is defensively. Offensively he is a downgrade. Howard has no jumper, relies on power moves and can't make any FT's.. Not someone you want with the ball down the stretch..

IMO Kobe is way too old to beat Lebron at this stage.. It is too late. Lebron is over his finals mishaps and is soaring into the prime of his career.. Kobe is well past his prime. This is Not a showdown he can win anymore..

[ElNono]

Was TD the clearcut best Spur during the 2007 Finals? Your answer will reveal your true colors tbh. Now:downspin: that shit.

But now you're cherry picking on a mismatch on one series. We're definitely not in the Finals that year without TD. In this day and age, with his decline in full swing, he's still the best big defender we have.

[ElNono]

Duncan had weak supporting casts in 2000 and especially 2001. Are you forgetting the Chucky Brown era?

Nah... what I'm saying is that superstar leaders in their primes take their supporting cast, and lead them to the playoffs and, depending on the quality of the cast, beyond.

Tim did it. Shaq did it. Even Lebron did it.

I just hope Dwight's back is ok, because there's a lot to carry there, tbh...

[ElNono]

Could you imagine a Shaq, Duncan or Lebron in their primes posting a 42-40 record? I can't.

[ElNono]

As a matter of fact, I'm claiming that schtick for this season... The 42-40

[Trainwreck2100]

Was TD the clearcut best Spur during the 2007 Finals? Your answer will reveal your true colors tbh. Now:downspin: that shit.

Parker got MVP cause Mike Brown expected Parker to do what he always does and wilt in the the playoffs, he had a plethora or open looks. Poor mike brown that was the one series in parker's life where he showed up.

[namlook]

LOL at the "Kobe the role player" trolling. Bwhahaha. And people think no one sees through this. :lmao

[racm]

Could you imagine a Shaq, Duncan or Lebron in their primes posting a 42-40 record? I can't.

Duncan carried the Spurs to a 58-24 record with TOSB Robinson/Porter and a bunch of scrubs.

Prime Shaq carried the Lakers to 67 wins and a ring and Kobe had yet to become lethal.

Prime LeBron just carried an injured Wade and Bosh to a ring.

:downspin:

[LkrFan]

Could you imagine a Shaq, Duncan or Lebron in their primes posting a 42-40 record? I can't.

None of their teams had whack ass teammates like det pic in the OP. :lol

[LkrFan]

Nah... what I'm saying is that superstar leaders in their primes take their supporting cast, and lead them to the playoffs and, depending on the quality of the cast, beyond.

Tim did it. Shaq did it. Even Lebron did it.

I just hope Dwight's back is ok, because there's a lot to carry there, tbh...

:lmao - good one. But like Pau before him (ringless), how can it be said that Dwight will have to carry the Lakers? :lol

[LkrFan]

Nah... what I'm saying is that superstar leaders in their primes take their supporting cast, and lead them to the playoffs and, depending on the quality of the cast, beyond.

Tim did it. Shaq did it. Even Lebron did it.

I just hope Dwight's back is ok, because there's a lot to carry there, tbh...

Wait wait wait. LeBron made it through the NCAA level EC that year. What happened when he got to the big dance?

You guys will leave no stones unturned when trying to discredit Kobe. Kind of hypocrital when he is the most polarizing (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144287)NBA player on this site. :wakeup

[LkrFan]

Duncan carried the Spurs to a 58-24 record with TOSB Robinson/Porter and a bunch of scrubs.

Prime Shaq carried the Lakers to 67 wins and a ring and Kobe had yet to become lethal.

Prime LeBron (and 3 of his best pinstripped friends) just carried an injured Wade and Bosh to a ring.

:downspin:

:lol

[ElNono]

None of their teams had whack ass teammates like det pic in the OP. :lol

Oh please. Lebron had Sideshow Bob, Mo Williams and the carboard cut of Booby fucking Gibson.


:lmao - good one. But like Pau before him (ringless), how can it be said that Dwight will have to carry the Lakers? :lol

What do you mean? Shaq was ringless before he took LA to a 3peat... Gasol was ringless also before he took LA to 3 consecutive finals.

Like I said, since Gasol developed vaginitis, it's been consecutive 2nd round exits. Dwight now will have to carry the load.

Notice there's one role player absent from this analysis.


Wait wait wait. LeBron made it through the NCAA level EC that year. What happened when he got to the big dance?

Come on. Lebron got there with a bunch of clowns, arguably much worse than what you posted on the OP, and got trounced by the better team.

But let's not pretend Kirby didn't get to the big dance with 4 (let me repeat that for added effect.... ***FOUR***) hall of famers and absolutely shit the bed too.


You guys will leave no stones unturned when trying to discredit Kobe.

:cry

Facts, tbh... 42-40 happened.

[LkrFan]

Oh please. Lebron had Sideshow Bob, Mo Williams and the carboard cut of Booby fucking Gibson.
I seem to have struck a nerve with the infamous ElNono. Wannatalkaboutit? (Just messing with you. Get on AIM dawg). :downspin:


What do you mean? Shaq was ringless before he took LA to a 3peat... Gasol was ringless also before he took LA to 3 consecutive finals.
All three of those guys are better than all of the guys on that pic not named Kobe. Pop Quiz: do you even know who #3 was? :lol Besides Bynum, who else is either victory cigars or out of the NBA altogether? :lol

And :lol at the Gasol comment. B.K. (before Kobe), he was nothing more than a shitstain to Spur Fans. Now he lead a then 3-time champion to 3 straight Finals? Comedy gold shit right derr. :lol


Like I said, since Gasol developed vaginitis, it's been consecutive 2nd round exits. Dwight now will have to carry the load.
Sure, let's hold Gasol's vaginitis again Kobe? Kobe was clearly the best player on the Lakers and has been since 2003 tbh.


Notice there's one role player absent from this analysis. 1st Ballot HOF role player. Say that 3 times fast. :rollin


Come on. Lebron got there with a bunch of clowns, arguably much worse than what you posted on the OP, and got trounced by the better team.
Nope. You can't even :downspin: that shit. LeBron had multiple lottery picks on his team since they were a perrenial cellar dweller. Then, like the Spurs with TD, they tanked to get him too. :lol Better yet and still, I'll take those 3 over LO, Cook, and Smushcalade.


But let's not pretend Kirby didn't get to the big dance with 4 (let me repeat that for added effect.... ***FOUR***) hall of famers and absolutely shit the bed too.
And if Malone didn't get hurt, we would have rang. Slava Medvedenk:lol was expected to check Big Ben and Sheed.


Facts, tbh... 42-40 happened.
So did The 20-game streak! How'd det turn out? :lol

[100%duncan]

Fail troll thread by lakafan.

[baseline bum]

Nope. You can't even :downspin: that shit. LeBron had multiple lottery picks on his team since they were a perrenial cellar dweller.

:lol Kobe had four lottery pick teammates on his 34 win 2005 team. Then 5 on his 2006 team and 4 on his 2007 team. LeBron only had 3 on his 07 Finals team.

[ElNono]

I seem to have struck a nerve with the infamous ElNono. Wannatalkaboutit? (Just messing with you. Get on AIM dawg). :downspin:

What's even funnier about Booby Gibson, is that I think he was a rook that year they made the Finals. The amount of hype that retard got on the ECF was only probably comparable to Linsanity.... Boobsanity, I guess.


All three of those guys are better than all of the guys on that pic not named Kobe. Pop Quiz: do you even know who #3 was? :lol Besides Bynum, who else is either victory cigars or out of the NBA altogether? :lol

That #3 is Shammond Williams... you're a youngster thus I excuse you for not knowing your vets... but he's actually a cousin of KG... Dude played for 7 different NBA teams throughout his career.

There's solid players there. Sasha stayed and won a couple more ships with your team, icing games with his freebie shooting. Same with Farmar, Odom and Bynum. Turiaf ended up moving on and won a ship with Miami this season. Aaron Mckie is about to debut his first cooking show on the Food Network.

Look at Cleveland. It's desolate out there. The only guy that you actually hear about from those Lebron year is borderline-All-Star Mo Williams since he went to that stacked Clippers team.


And :lol at the Gasol comment. B.K. (before Kobe), he was nothing more than a shitstain to Spur Fans. Now he lead a then 3-time champion to 3 straight Finals? Comedy gold shit right derr. :lol

Gasol actually took that Memphis team to the playoffs... it was det year that the Kobe-led Lakers didn't make it... hmmmm....


Sure, let's hold Gasol's vaginitis again Kobe? Kobe was clearly the best player on the Lakers and has been since 2003 tbh.

I'm not holding anything against Kobe (well, the snitching I am), but these are just the facts. When Pau was beasting, Lakeshow was winning. When Pau got his heart broken :cry, that was the end of that.


1st Ballot HOF role player. Say that 3 times fast. :rollin

Well, Scottie Pippen was a 1st Ballot HOF role player... there's precedent. Looking good for Kobe.


Nope. You can't even :downspin: that shit. LeBron had multiple lottery picks on his team since they were a perrenial cellar dweller. Then, like the Spurs with TD, they tanked to get him too. :lol Better yet and still, I'll take those 3 over LO, Cook, and Smushcalade.

What did those lottery picks produce? Danny Green? Lebron wanted to win now, and Danny Ferry went out and traded all that shit for Floppy Varejao, Mo Williams, Big Z, Shaq when he was done... all fucking scrubs.


And if Malone didn't get hurt, we would have rang. Slava Medvedenk:lol was expected to check Big Ben and Sheed.

How could you pin it on Malone, when you had a player (let's call him PLAYER ShAq), who was shooting 60%+ from the field, watching another player (let's call him PLAYER KoBe) chuck his sub 30% shooting into a defeat all because he went chasing for the Finals MVP? Malone would've been another spectator.


So did The 20-game streak! How'd det turn out? :lol

Pretty good. We overachieved and made it to the WCF... beats losing in the 2nd round :downspin:

[LkrFan]

What's even funnier about Booby Gibson, is that I think he was a rook that year they made the Finals. The amount of hype that retard got on the ECF was only probably comparable to Linsanity.... Boobsanity, I guess.
Agreed.




That #3 is Shammond Williams... you're a youngster thus I excuse you for not knowing your vets... but he's actually a cousin of KG... Dude played for 7 different NBA teams throughout his career.
:lol I know who he was. My point is he was one of many scrubs Kobe had to play with.



There's solid players there. Sasha stayed and won a couple more ships with your team, icing games with his freebie shooting. Same with Farmar, Odom and Bynum. Turiaf ended up moving on and won a ship with Miami this season. Aaron Mckie is about to debut his first cooking show on the Food Network. You tripping dawg. LO was an OK player. Turiaf is so so. Sasha had one flukey contract year in 2008. The rest are laughable at best.



Look at Cleveland. It's desolate out there. The only guy that you actually hear about from those Lebron year is borderline-All-Star Mo Williams since he went to that stacked Clippers team.Mo was an all star IIRC in Cleveland. Every player on the pic in my OP never even sniffed the ASG.



Gasol actually took that Memphis team to the playoffs... it was det year that the Kobe-led Lakers didn't make it... hmmmm....If you are talking about 2005, that was the year we tanked for Bynum. It worked. If they were not going after a "HS kid that they didn't want to see in another uniform in a few years" they would have made the playoffs. :toast



I'm not holding anything against Kobe (well, the snitching I am), but these are just the facts. When Pau was beasting, Lakeshow was winning. When Pau got his heart broken :cry, that was the end of that.Pau complemented Kobe's game. Really well. Kobe did his thang. You right, when Pau started getting his shit pushed in, the Lakers fell off. No outbursts of 40+ points from Kobe was going to stop the Lakers from going down.



Well, Scottie Pippen was a 1st Ballot HOF role player... there's precedent. Looking good for Kobe.
1st Ballot HOF role player. I don't get that. What about the Bulls winning 57 games while Mike was striking out on a minor league baseball team? What about Kobe winning two rangs without Shaq? Keep moving det goal post son. There is no such thing as a 1st Ballot HOF role player.



What did those lottery picks produce? Danny Green? Lebron wanted to win now, and Danny Ferry went out and traded all that shit for Floppy Varejao, Mo Williams, Big Z, Shaq when he was done... all fucking scrubs.
Hey, it's not my fault they had a shitty GM. :lol



How could you pin it on Malone, when you had a player (let's call him PLAYER ShAq), who was shooting 60%+ from the field, watching another player (let's call him PLAYER KoBe) chuck his sub 30% shooting into a defeat all because he went chasing for the Finals MVP? Malone would've been another spectator.

The indefensable goods. Props. :toast



Pretty good. We overachieved and made it to the WCF... beats losing in the 2nd round :downspin:
Nah, don't even try that shit. :lol You guys were the number 1 seed for a good part of the season. 20 game winning streak that carried over into the playoffs had everybody upstairs popping bottles and all. Then KD happened. Y'all didn't overachieve. Whether you lose in the WCF or 2nd round still means that you lost. Dems be the facts. :toast

[racm]

Son, Pippen won 55 games as the alpha on the Bulls, while Jordan always got knocked out of the first round by the Celtics before Krause traded for Pippen.

:downspin:

[LkrFan]

:lol Kobe had four lottery pick teammates on his 34 win 2005 team. Then 5 on his 2006 team and 4 on his 2007 team. LeBron only had 3 on his 07 Finals team.

They tanked to get Bynum.

[LkrFan]

Son, Pippen won 55 games as the alpha on the Bulls, while Jordan always got knocked out of the first round by the Celtics before Krause traded for Pippen.

:downspin:

Pip is underrated around these parts tbh.

[whitemamba]

They tanked to get Bynum.

thats a really believable statement, mitch knows best

[whitemamba]

Pip is underrated around these parts tbh.


jordan just wasnt in his prime

[TDMVPDPOY]

during the lakers 3peat, it was very thrustrating watchin that spurs rebuilding team around duncan with stupid overthehill TOSB vets on the team who were happy just to collect a paycheck...fkn pathetic

[whitemamba]

during the lakers 3peat, it was very thrustrating watchin that spurs rebuilding team around duncan with stupid overthehill TOSB vets on the team who were happy just to collect a paycheck...fkn pathetic

yeah well it obviously worked out didnt it? enjoy those 4, no one is going to play in SA ever... u guys are fucked:toast

[Clipper Nation]

Facts, tbh... 42-40 happened.
Also... 34-48 happened... :lmao

[racm]

They tanked to get Bynum.

And I actually think Pop was going for Duncan. Of course I think he started the plan when Robinson went down, but getting the first pick was a pretty good stroke of luck.


Also... 34-48 happened... :lmao

Says the guy whose team has only had two winning seasons in the past 15 years.

Spurs = 15 50+ win seasons
Clippers = 0 50+ win seasons

:lmao

[Clipper Nation]

Says the guy whose team has only had two winning seasons in the past 15 years.

Spurs = 15 50+ win seasons
Clippers = 0 50+ win seasons

:lmao
I'm allowed to laugh at the Lakers' lottery season, since the Clippers finished ahead of them in the standings that year, tbh.... :lol

[ambchang]

LO was inconsistent back then. He sucked as Jermaine. When the Lakers traded for Pau and made him Tito he did alright.

Bynum was a 2nd year player with no college, AAU, and about 15 high school game under his belt.

Yeah, but 2007 Kobe is better than prime Manu.

So to answer your q, Duncan's had worse supporting cast. Kobe alone > entire 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2004 Spurs team minus Duncan.

[Latarian Milton]

You mean "worse". Learn English you cocksucker.

check his IP (which we know you can do) and you know he ain't too bad by foreign standard tbh. his language ain't the shittiest part of this thread imho, he just made them random errors that everyone else makes but what really makes him look stupid is using the post-shaq lakers squad to try to prove kobe got shittier supporting casts than the most dominant PF of the era which he got his ass multiple times kicked by

rappist didn't even make the playoffs that year and thats gotta be the last thing he wants to think of, stupid fuck just brought some funny stuff that's supposed to embarrass himself tbh

[Killakobe81]

The overriding theme is: When Kobe is a threat to win a title, Spur fan steps up their (Kobe) hate game. We had almost had reached a point of Kobe irrelevancy in the forum and then Mitch brought in Nash & Dwight ... coincidence? I just don't get why some Spur fans are so threatened by a "role player", snitch and rapist. IF Duncan is as great as you think he is (I too think he is great but a bit overrated on a SPURS site ...go figure) then Kobe should not be a threat to Duncan's legacy. You guys should read the SI article 21 shades of grey ... writer slobbed on Duncan plenty pointed out he had the best win% of the past 15 years ...

[ambchang]

Kobe is not a threat, normal, common sense people is just trying to drill that thought into Kobe fans.

We should know better though, it's like teaching a pig to play a cello.

[ElNono]

The overriding theme is: When Kobe is a threat to win a title, Spur fan steps up their (Kobe) hate game. We had almost had reached a point of Kobe irrelevancy in the forum and then Mitch brought in Nash & Dwight ... coincidence? I just don't get why some Spur fans are so threatened by a "role player", snitch and rapist. IF Duncan is as great as you think he is (I too think he is great but a bit overrated on a SPURS site ...go figure) then Kobe should not be a threat to Duncan's legacy. You guys should read the SI article 21 shades of grey ... writer slobbed on Duncan plenty pointed out he had the best win% of the past 15 years ...

:cry:cry:cry:cry:cry

Look who started this thread and who dragged TD in here... it wasn't Spursfan :lol

Not to mention that trolling with the "hate on Kobe" is too easy, Killa. :lol

[Killakobe81]

:cry:cry:cry:cry:cry

Look who started this thread and who dragged TD in here... it wasn't Spursfan :lol

Not to mention that trolling with the "hate on Kobe" is too easy, Killa. :lol

@El Nono: I did realize that Laker fan started this thread but just take a look at the recent threads and polls and pretty much Kobe is a theme in at least half. And the ones that aren't somehow he gets mentioned by Kobe fans and haters alike.

@Ambchang: Maybe he is not athreat but you "doth protestway too much" ... to think otherwise. How many MJ fans come on here to say Mj is better than Kobe? No need because we ALL know the answer. Like I said, I think it's CLOSE but I give Kobe the edge (over Duncan not MJ) Anyone that argues it's not close ...either way (Kobe or Timmy) is really doesnt know much about ball imho.

[ElNono]

It's the offseason... plus Lebron isn't a target, so that reduces the troll bait to just a few characters... relax

[LkrFan]

Also... 34-48 happened... :lmao

You have no r:lol:lolm. Cl:lolppers. :downspin:

[DMC]

check his IP (which we know you can do) and you know he ain't too bad by foreign standard tbh. his language ain't the shittiest part of this thread imho, he just made them random errors that everyone else makes but what really makes him look stupid is using the post-shaq lakers squad to try to prove kobe got shittier supporting casts than the most dominant PF of the era which he got his ass multiple times kicked by

rappist didn't even make the playoffs that year and thats gotta be the last thing he wants to think of, stupid fuck just brought some funny stuff that's supposed to embarrass himself tbh

http://foodnetworkhumor.com/wp-content/uploads//bush-say-what.jpg

[Clipper Nation]

You have no r:lol:lolm. Cl:lolppers. :downspin:

2004-05 Clippers: 37-45
2004-05 L:lolk:lolrs: 34-48, tied with the Warri:lolrs for last place

:lmao

[LkrFan]

check his IP (which we know you can do) and you know he ain't too bad by foreign standard tbh. his language ain't the shittiest part of this thread imho, he just made them random errors that everyone else makes but what really makes him look stupid is using the post-shaq lakers squad to try to prove kobe got shittier supporting casts than the most dominant PF of the era which he got his ass multiple times kicked by

rappist didn't even make the playoffs that year and thats gotta be the last thing he wants to think of, stupid fuck just brought some funny stuff that's supposed to embarrass himself tbh

Three issues with your theories:

1) I'm as American as apple pie. I'm just stationed in Japan.
2) He had the worst supporting cast det year than him or TD ever had. Not worse, but the worst.
3) The Lakers made the playoffs in 2006-2007 with det shitty supporting cast. Just speaks to Kobe's greatness.

Give him a competent supporting cast and he delivers. 7 Finals in 16 years of play says I'm right. And even in his 17th year he's a good bet to get to the big dance again. This time with an upgraded, balanced supporting cast. Neal with it. :downspin:

[LkrFan]

2004-05 Clippers: 37-45
2004-05 L:lolk:lolrs: 34-48, tied with the Warri:lolrs for last place

:lmao

Laker GM: MK. Result: Bynum. Then Pau. Then 3 straight years of Finals appearances.

Clipp GM: B:lolylor. Result: :rollin

[Clipper Nation]

Laker GM: MK. Result: Bynum. Then Pau. Then 3 straight years of Finals appearances.

Clipp GM: B:lolylor. Result: :rollin

Clipps had a better record than F:lol:lold Stamps and the L:lolk:lolrs AGAIN the following year and went further in the playoffs.....

Then, F:lol:lold Stamps went on Stephen A.'s show and cried for a trade....

:lmao

[LkrFan]

@El Nono: I did realize that Laker fan started this thread but just take a look at the recent threads and polls and pretty much Kobe is a theme in at least half. And the ones that aren't somehow he gets mentioned by Kobe fans and haters alike.

@Ambchang: Maybe he is not athreat but you "doth protestway too much" ... to think otherwise. How many MJ fans come on here to say Mj is better than Kobe? No need because we ALL know the answer. Like I said, I think it's CLOSE but I give Kobe the edge (over Duncan not MJ) Anyone that argues it's not close ...either way (Kobe or Timmy) is really doesnt know much about ball imho.

Troof bomb. Like I said, Kobe is the most polarizing (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144287) athlete on this site despite him being a "role player" :lol.

[LkrFan]

Clipps had a better record than F:lol:lold Stamps and the L:lolk:lolrs AGAIN the following year and went further in the playoffs.....

Then, F:lol:lold Stamps went on Stephen A.'s show and cried for a trade....

:lmao

How many rangs? :wakeup

[Clipper Nation]

How many rangs? :wakeup

13 rangs, due to the Celtics/Braves franchise swap.... :downspin:

:lmao L:lolk:lolrs

[LkrFan]

:cry:cry:cry:cry:cry

Look who started this thread and who dragged TD in here... it wasn't Spursfan :lol

Not to mention that trolling with the "hate on Kobe" is too easy, Killa. :lol

True, but when I first logged onto this sight, I came in peace. What happened? I got called a faggot, got trolled by DPG's moderator/Kori's nephew schtick, etc. Any time I talked about the Lakers it got worst :lol. Y'all made me this way. :lol

[LkrFan]

13 rangs, due to the Celtics/Braves franchise swap.... :downspin:

:lmao L:lolk:lolrs

LIAR (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAC/)! :lol

[LkrFan]

It's the offseason... plus Lebron isn't a target, so that reduces the troll bait to just a few characters... relax

LeBron was never a target on this board. At least not like Kobe is tbh.

[Clipper Nation]

LIAR (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAC/)! :lol

Look up the Braves/Celtics franchise swap, B.... 13 rangs, bitch :downspin:

[DMC]

Three issues with your theories:

1) I'm as American as apple pie. I'm just stationed in Japan.
2) He had the worst supporting cast det year than him or TD ever had. Not worse, but the worst.
3) The Lakers made the playoffs in 2006-2007 with det shitty supporting cast. Just speaks to Kobe's greatness.

Give him a competent supporting cast and he delivers. 7 Finals in 16 years of play says I'm right. And even in his 17th year he's a good bet to get to the big dance again. This time with an upgraded, balanced supporting cast. Neal with it. :downspin:

So you start posting at what, 2am?

[LkrFan]

Look up the Braves/Celtics franchise swap, B.... 13 rangs, bitch :downspin:

Nope. Basketball reference says you are a liar. A funny one though. :lol

[LkrFan]

So you start posting at what, 2am?

Nope. It is 0651, Wednesday, 22 Aug 2012, in the morning for me. It's like Tuesday afternoon for you guys and still 21 Aug 2012. Consider me from the future. :lol

Only times I post at 0200 or so is if it is a playoff game ANSI don't want to watch the replay on DVR.

[ElNono]

LeBron was never a target on this board. At least not like Kobe is tbh.

you just mad coz you had to change your avatar, tbh

[LkrFan]

you just mad coz you had to change your avatar, tbh

:lol not really. He still has only one rang. He's four in the hole as far as I'm concerned. I don't see him getting another one for a while. Lakers are stacked and the Thunder will improve. Miami has 3 semi-max contracts on the books. That means they can only support LBJ/Wade/Bosh with scrap players. The Lakers, OTOH, could give a Jean Claude Van Damn about a salary cap or a super tax. So we will always be a threat. After 2014, only Nash and presumably D-12 is on the books. That's only about $30M in salary and I'm sure the Lakers will find a few FAs or make trades to reload again. My new avatar is the troof tbh. :lol

[nowhereman523]

Suddenly Kobe's better because he missed the playoffs in his prime? Nice logic.

[LkrFan]

Suddenly Kobe's better because he missed the playoffs in his prime? Nice logic.

M:lolvs

[Ace]

:lol not really. He still has only one rang. He's four in the hole as far as I'm concerned. I don't see him getting another one for a while. Lakers are stacked and the Thunder will improve. Miami has 3 semi-max contracts on the books. That means they can only support LBJ/Wade/Bosh with scrap players. The Lakers, OTOH, could give a Jean Claude Van Damn about a salary cap or a super tax. So we will always be a threat. After 2014, only Nash and presumably D-12 is on the books. That's only about $30M in salary and I'm sure the Lakers will find a few FAs or make trades to reload again. My new avatar is the troof tbh. :lol

Miami is younger and their big 3 in their prime but yet somehow the Lakers have a bigger window? :lmao

[ambchang]

@El Nono: I did realize that Laker fan started this thread but just take a look at the recent threads and polls and pretty much Kobe is a theme in at least half. And the ones that aren't somehow he gets mentioned by Kobe fans and haters alike.

@Ambchang: Maybe he is not athreat but you "doth protestway too much" ... to think otherwise. How many MJ fans come on here to say Mj is better than Kobe? No need because we ALL know the answer. Like I said, I think it's CLOSE but I give Kobe the edge (over Duncan not MJ) Anyone that argues it's not close ...either way (Kobe or Timmy) is really doesnt know much about ball imho.

Where the hell were you? Jordan > Kobe was in full force a few years ago, when those clueless Kobe fans came out and proclaim so, and ESPN is trying to generate some viewer ship. Over the years, even those clueless Laker fans realized how stupid it was, and that movement died.

Kobe vs. Duncan is not close my friend. Kobe vs. Halivcek is close. Kobe's successful teams (by that I mean WCF+) are all loaded teams compared to the rest of the league in their respective times, where as Duncan's successful teams have been mediocre to great. Look at Duncan's 2000-2004 teams, the support was really nothing overly special. Are those good supporting casts? Of course, but they were by no means great. The 08 to current group is mediocre, but that doesn't matter, because Duncan is past his prime, TOSB if you will.

[ambchang]

LeBron was never a target on this board. At least not like Kobe is tbh.

Because Heat fans are not as stupid/numerous as Laker fans, and Heat doesn't have much of a rivalry with the Spurs.

[racm]

Where the hell were you? Jordan > Kobe was in full force a few years ago, when those clueless Kobe fans came out and proclaim so, and ESPN is trying to generate some viewer ship. Over the years, even those clueless Laker fans realized how stupid it was, and that movement died.

Kobe vs. Duncan is not close my friend. Kobe vs. Halivcek is close. Kobe's successful teams (by that I mean WCF+) are all loaded teams compared to the rest of the league in their respective times, where as Duncan's successful teams have been mediocre to great. Look at Duncan's 2000-2004 teams, the support was really nothing overly special. Are those good supporting casts? Of course, but they were by no means great. The 08 to current group is mediocre, but that doesn't matter, because Duncan is past his prime, TOSB if you will.

Kobe never got to the WCF without Shaq/Pau, just saying. :downspin:

And Duncan's 2003 supporting cast:

Tony Parker (2nd year player, still benched by Pop for Claxton/Kerr a lot)
Steve Smith (lost his starting job midway through the season)
Bruce Bowen (had yet to make his mark, even though he was a good defender even back in Miami)
David Robinson (on the way out, TOSB through and through)
Stephen Jackson (journeyman, perfect definition of volume scoring role player)
Manu Ginobili (rookie; would not take over games until a couple of seasons afterwards)
Danny Ferry (Bonner prototype, but not as good a 3 pt shooter)
Steve Kerr (only needs to hit 3s)
Malik Rose (energy guy off the bench; only decent bench big)
Speedy Claxton (did... nothing of note after that season)
Kevin Willis (TOSB)

And Duncan carried that sorry bunch to a title.


Because Heat fans are not as stupid/numerous as Laker fans, and Heat doesn't have much of a rivalry with the Spurs.

I'd argue Heat fan and Spur fan get along a lot, except when they're playing each other. Then there's the Bowen factor.

[LkrFan]

Miami is younger and their big 3 in their prime but yet somehow the Lakers have a bigger window? :lmao

Wade has about 2-3 years left of eliteness IMO. And that is assuming his surgery takes well and he comes back the same. For his sake I hope I'm wrong because I don't want any excuses.

The Lakers, OTOH, has a much better track record of perennially being contenders sans two intentional tank years (Eddie Jones and Andrew Bynum were the last two). This new CBA ain't shit. As you can see we have a world class FO/ownership team. We were still able to pry Orlando's franchise player from them without giving up Pau. That's our MO. Get a premiere big and build around him (Mikan, KAJ, Shaq, Howard). Howard has about 7-8 good years left - which is our new window provided the FO continues to add pieces. Remember, after 2014, Kobe and Pau's $50M are coming off the books. Only Nash and presumably Howard will be on the books (about $30M by my guess). They'll be primed to reload again - hence my thoughts that our window is just as open as the Heat's.

[Ace]

Wade has about 2-3 years left of eliteness IMO. And that is assuming his surgery takes well and he comes back the same. For his sake I hope I'm wrong because I don't want any excuses.

The Lakers, OTOH, has a much better track record of perennially being contenders sans two intentional tank years (Eddie Jones and Andrew Bynum were the last two). This new CBA ain't shit. As you can see we have a world class FO/ownership team. We were still able to pry Orlando's franchise player from them without giving up Pau. That's our MO. Get a premiere big and build around him (Mikan, KAJ, Shaq, Howard). Howard has about 7-8 good years left - which is our new window provided the FO continues to add pieces. Remember, after 2014, Kobe and Pau's $50M are coming off the books. Only Nash and presumably Howard will be on the books (about $30M by my guess). They'll be primed to reload again - hence my thoughts that our window is just as open as the Heat's.

Heat will build around LeBron and Bosh, so their window is fine. Wade should be on a lower contract by 2014 and could very well still be at all star level.

[ambchang]

Wade has about 2-3 years left of eliteness IMO. And that is assuming his surgery takes well and he comes back the same. For his sake I hope I'm wrong because I don't want any excuses.

The Lakers, OTOH, has a much better track record of perennially being contenders sans two intentional tank years (Eddie Jones and Andrew Bynum were the last two). This new CBA ain't shit. As you can see we have a world class FO/ownership team. We were still able to pry Orlando's franchise player from them without giving up Pau. That's our MO. Get a premiere big and build around him (Mikan, KAJ, Shaq, Howard). Howard has about 7-8 good years left - which is our new window provided the FO continues to add pieces. Remember, after 2014, Kobe and Pau's $50M are coming off the books. Only Nash and presumably Howard will be on the books (about $30M by my guess). They'll be primed to reload again - hence my thoughts that our window is just as open as the Heat's.

FINALLY, even a Laker fan can tell their favourite franchise has always built around bigs.

[LkrFan]

FINALLY, even a Laker fan can tell their favourite franchise has always built around bigs.

Stop :downspin: my shit. :lol Right now it's still Kobe's team. :)

[nowhereman523]

M:lolvs

:lol saying a player is better because he missed the playoffs in his prime
:lol you're dumb as crap

[BanditHiro]

And Duncan's 2003 supporting cast:

Tony Parker (2nd year player, still benched by Pop for Claxton/Kerr a lot)
Steve Smith (lost his starting job midway through the season)
Bruce Bowen (had yet to make his mark, even though he was a good defender even back in Miami)
David Robinson (on the way out, TOSB through and through)
Stephen Jackson (journeyman, perfect definition of volume scoring role player)
Manu Ginobili (rookie; would not take over games until a couple of seasons afterwards)
Danny Ferry (Bonner prototype, but not as good a 3 pt shooter)
Steve Kerr (only needs to hit 3s)
Malik Rose (energy guy off the bench; only decent bench big)
Speedy Claxton (did... nothing of note after that season)
Kevin Willis (TOSB)

And Duncan carried that sorry bunch to a title.


Pretty much the reason why Duncan is in the top 10 and better than Kobe...

[LkrFan]

Pretty much the reason why Duncan is in the top 10 and better than Kobe...

Disagree. Kobe won back to back titles without a HOF teammate. Neither Magic, Bird, nor MJ did that. Duncan actually had one and couldn't repeat. The above you mentioned is moot IMO.

[BoricuaCJA]

Stop :downspin: my shit. :lol Right now it's still Kobe's team. :)
He didn't :downspin:shit. He just quoted word for word what you just said. Kobe has ALWAYS been big man dependent.

[LkrFan]

Heat will build around LeBron and Bosh, so their window is fine. Wade should be on a lower contract by 2014 and could very well still be at all star level.

I don't doubt that their window is fine. Riles is a boss. I'm just saying don't think the Lakers won't be able to reload which tells me that their window is fine as well. I can't think of too many players that won't want to go play with D-12 in Los Angeles, CA. Especially when they know the Lakers will have upwards of $50M in available cap space after the 2013-2014 season. :toast

[LkrFan]

He didn't :downspin:shit. He just quoted word for word what you just said. Kobe has ALWAYS been big man dependent.

See, now your dishonest ass is intentionally misquoting me. :lol I basically said that their MO is to obtain the premiere big man in the game (if possible) then build around him. In 1996, that 24 year old monster clearly was the prized acquisition in the entire NBA. Of course Kobe wasn't the player that they built around back then. Kobe was Robin up until about 2003 IMO when he was emerging as not only the best SG in the game but also easily a top 5 player. At that time I'd say they were on the same level. Shaq saw that Kobe was no longer inferior to him that's when the drama started to boil over. Not even Payton and Malone in 2004 could put out the flames so to speak. We know how that season ended. Then they tanked to get their next potential big man (Bynum in 2005) to start the process over again.

But back on topic. Nowhere in my post did I explicitly say that Kobe is big man dependent. :lol

[Koolaid_Man]

See, now your dishonest ass is intentionally misquoting me. :lol I basically said that their MO is to obtain the premiere big man in the game (if possible) then build around him. In 1996, that 24 year old monster clearly was the prized acquisition in the entire NBA. Of course Kobe wasn't the player that they built around back then. Kobe was Robin up until about 2003 IMO when he was emerging as not only the best SG in the game but also easily a top 5 player. At that time I'd say they were on the same level. Shaq saw that Kobe was no longer inferior to him that's when the drama started to boil over. Not even Payton and Malone in 2004 could put out the flames so to speak. We know how that season ended. Then they tanked to get their next potential big man (Bynum in 2005) to start the process over again.

But back on topic. Nowhere in my post did I explicitly say that Kobe is big man dependent. :lol


hey man don't argue with them..they're mad and upset because we got Dwight and Nash!!! and....and.... all we gave up was a .25 cent bag of original Lay's potato chips and a few lemon heads...

do like I do...just gloat and flex my muscle :lol...those bitches know that Kool don't bar none :lol

[Clipper Nation]

Disagree. Kobe won back to back titles without a HOF teammate.
He had a dominant frontcourt duo, a Sixth Man of the Year, and an HOF coach during that time....

When Food Stamps was REALLY the #1 option, he missed the playoffs one year in his prime, quit on his team the next year, and then started demanding a trade.....

Meanwhile, when Duncan was the unquestioned top dog, he rang multiple times and EARNED two MVP's (unlike the one pity MVP that Food Stamps was handed)....

[Clipper Nation]

hey man don't argue with them..they're mad and upset because we got Dwight and Nash!!!
Or we're mad about having to read the usual shitful takes from LkrFag....


and....and.... all we gave up was a .25 cent bag of original Lay's potato chips and a few lemon heads...
Funny how, in the eyes of the actual Lakerfans you're imitating, Bynum went from the best center in the league as a Laker, to "a .25 cent bag of original Lay's potato chips and a few lemon heads" now.... :lol

[BanditHiro]

...

in all seriousness what's your beef? Kobe is still going to go down as one of the top 15-20 players of all-time, first ballot hall-of-fame...any fan should be proud.

[LkrFan]

in all seriousness what's your beef? Kobe is still going to go down as one of the top 15-20 players of all-time, first ballot hall-of-fame...any fan should be proud.

What the..I don't have any beef. I already know where Kobe stands in NBA history. :)

[racm]

Disagree. Kobe won back to back titles without a HOF teammate. Neither Magic, Bird, nor MJ did that. Duncan actually had one and couldn't repeat. The above you mentioned is moot IMO.

The real reason Duncan didn't repeat in 2000 even with a still serviceable DRob was because Pop shut him down due to a torn meniscus. Had he played he'd be out of the league by now.


He had a dominant frontcourt duo, a Sixth Man of the Year, and an HOF coach during that time....

When Food Stamps was REALLY the #1 option, he missed the playoffs one year in his prime, quit on his team the next year, and then started demanding a trade.....

Meanwhile, when Duncan was the unquestioned top dog, he rang multiple times and EARNED two MVP's (unlike the one pity MVP that Food Stamps was handed)....

Pau's also HOF-worthy. Not based on his NBA career alone, no, but being a very successful international player (two silver medals) should put him into consideration.

[Killakobe81]

Where the hell were you? Jordan > Kobe was in full force a few years ago, when those clueless Kobe fans came out and proclaim so, and ESPN is trying to generate some viewer ship. Over the years, even those clueless Laker fans realized how stupid it was, and that movement died.

Kobe vs. Duncan is not close my friend. Kobe vs. Halivcek is close. Kobe's successful teams (by that I mean WCF+) are all loaded teams compared to the rest of the league in their respective times, where as Duncan's successful teams have been mediocre to great. Look at Duncan's 2000-2004 teams, the support was really nothing overly special. Are those good supporting casts? Of course, but they were by no means great. The 08 to current group is mediocre, but that doesn't matter, because Duncan is past his prime, TOSB if you will.

I dont get how it's not close. You are the same person that said Stockton is better than Nash based on their CAREER. duncan has had a decent resurgence the past few years ...but when you look at careers an argument can be made (Colin cowherd is one that has said this as well) that it's not close at allin favor of Kobe. I still think it's relatively close but the past 4 seasons have pushed the needle further in Kobe's direction. But nice try. Even if you spur fans win the argument that Duncan was the POTY of the last decade from 2008-now Kobe has been better and if Kobe was second in that debate he pretty much closes that argument with 4 superior years to Duncan. Unless of course regular season team records (win%) are all that matters ...

[ambchang]

Stop :downspin: my shit. :lol Right now it's still Kobe's team. :)

:depressed

[ambchang]

Disagree. Kobe won back to back titles without a HOF teammate. Neither Magic, Bird, nor MJ did that. Duncan actually had one and couldn't repeat. The above you mentioned is moot IMO.

Of course they haven't made the HOF yet, they have to be retired for 5 years before they are even eligible.

Pau Gasol is a lock for the HoF BTW.

["Brett Favre"]

Disagree. Kobe won back to back titles without a HOF teammate. Neither Magic, Bird, nor MJ did that. Duncan actually had one and couldn't repeat. The above you mentioned is moot IMO.

Why wasn't Kobe named MVP when he had Shaq or Gasol at their dominant points? You can point to Finals MVPs which only count for 7 games at most.

[ambchang]

I dont get how it's not close. You are the same person that said Stockton is better than Nash based on their CAREER. duncan has had a decent resurgence the past few years ...but when you look at careers an argument can be made (Colin cowherd is one that has said this as well) that it's not close at allin favor of Kobe. I still think it's relatively close but the past 4 seasons have pushed the needle further in Kobe's direction. But nice try. Even if you spur fans win the argument that Duncan was the POTY of the last decade from 2008-now Kobe has been better and if Kobe was second in that debate he pretty much closes that argument with 4 superior years to Duncan. Unless of course regular season team records (win%) are all that matters ...

No doubt Kobe has been better from 2008 to now, but even over a career, what Duncan accomplished from 1999 to 2005, Kobe has done nothing remotely even close to that level of accomplishment.

Kobe was given a team of weak supporting cast, and he missed the playoff once and got ousted in the 1st round twice. Duncan got a weak supporting cast from 1999 to 2004, and he got ousted in the first round once because he didn't play in it, and then got 50+ win seasons, WCSFs, and even a ring during that time.

People forgot how crap that Spurs team was in 2000 to 2004 without Duncan, because they won a championship and have the name SJax, Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili in 2003 and 2004, but really look into that team, watch the games they played. David Robinson, clearly way over the hill at that point, was undoubtedly the 2nd best player on that team. Robinson, at that point in his career, wasn't anything close to a Pau Gasol of 2008 to 2010, or even a Pau Gasol of today, he wasn't even at Bynum's level today, and he was by far the 2nd best player on that team.

[ambchang]

BTW, don't get the Nash and Stockton thing, because to me, it's not even a debate, Stockton is far and away much better than Nash, both from a career perspective, and in their primes.

[Killakobe81]

Saying who had the better "prime" or who accomplished more with less doesnt make Duncan greater than Kobe. Those type of factors gain merit in MVP discussions ...and Duncan got his MVP's for it. Career wise Kobe is clearly been the better player for a larger number of years. From 1999-2005 It's Duncan. Since then It's kobe. I wont go back in to my reasons why but MVP voting, ALL NBA, Scoring, Rings and Finals MVP's all favor Kobe since then.

Hakeem had a better prime than Duncan, Shaq too. I think Duncan had the better career.

[Spursfan092120]

LOL Tim Duncan made the WCF with Terry Porter, Antonio Daniels, and Danny Ferry as starters and with decrepit Porter the third best player on the team.

This....

TIM>KOBE... period

[ambchang]

Saying who had the better "prime" or who accomplished more with less doesnt make Duncan greater than Kobe. Those type of factors gain merit in MVP discussions ...and Duncan got his MVP's for it. Career wise Kobe is clearly been the better player for a larger number of years. From 1999-2005 It's Duncan. Since then It's kobe. I wont go back in to my reasons why but MVP voting, ALL NBA, Scoring, Rings and Finals MVP's all favor Kobe since then.

Hakeem had a better prime than Duncan, Shaq too. I think Duncan had the better career.

That doesn't make sense.

By all-nba, scoring, Malone > Duncan.

As for rings, it's a team accomplishment

Finals MVP, Duncan's got 3, Kobe's got 2. If you want to say Kobe > Duncan since 2005, sure, I can give you that. But over their respective careers, Duncan is better.

Since 2005, Lebron James, Wade, Nowitzki, Rose and Durant are all greater than Duncan, I won't say any of them are necessarily better than Duncan, or even close to his career accomplishments, because you just took out Duncan's absolute prime.

[LkrFan]

No doubt Kobe has been better from 2008 to now, but even over a career, what Duncan accomplished from 1999 to 2005, Kobe has done nothing remotely even close to that level of accomplishment.

Kobe was given a team of weak supporting cast, and he missed the playoff once and got ousted in the 1st round twice. Duncan got a weak supporting cast from 1999 to 2004, and he got ousted in the first round once because he didn't play in it, and then got 50+ win seasons, WCSFs, and even a ring during that time.

People forgot how crap that Spurs team was in 2000 to 2004 without Duncan, because they won a championship and have the name SJax, Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili in 2003 and 2004, but really look into that team, watch the games they played. David Robinson, clearly way over the hill at that point, was undoubtedly the 2nd best player on that team. Robinson, at that point in his career, wasn't anything close to a Pau Gasol of 2008 to 2010, or even a Pau Gasol of today, he wasn't even at Bynum's level today, and he was by far the 2nd best player on that team.

Two comments:

1) We tanked to get Bynum. Anybody that saw that Laker team play knows the tank job was in full effect. Making the playoffs that year would have been futile.
2) Those two first round exits were to a loaded, clearly superior Suns team. Hell, if not for Horry's cheap shot in 2007 Duncan is sitting on 3 rangs. Real talk. They had you guys on the ropes until Horry's kill shot.

[LkrFan]

BTW, don't get the Nash and Stockton thing, because to me, it's not even a debate, Stockton is far and away much better than Nash, both from a career perspective, and in their primes.

Agreed. I'd take Stockton over Nash if I were a GM needing to draft a PG.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Could you imagine a Shaq, Duncan or Lebron in their primes posting a 42-40 record? I can't.
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

1974-75: 38-44, Missed the Playoffs (Age 27)
1975-76: 40-42, Missed the Playoffs (Age 28)

[DontStopBelieving]

I know its probably already been said but...






























worse*

[Jodelo]

I will try to spin it... :depressed

But did Shaq, Duncan, Lebron or heck even Dirk missed the PO (in their primes)?

[LkrFan]

But did Shaq, Duncan, Lebron or heck even Dirk missed the PO (in their primes)?

Last time. The Lakers TANKED to get Bynum. There's a difference between tanking and not being good enough to make the playoffs. Understand?

[Jodelo]

Last time. The Lakers TANKED to get Bynum. There's a difference between tanking and not being good enough to make the playoffs. Understand?

Ok, now they tanked? :lol

[Killakobe81]

1. Kareem missed two and he is greater than Everyone mentioned on this list sans MJ ...and that is even debatable.

2. Duncan was never head coached by: Del Harris, Rambis or a "diminished" Rudy T. If PJ stayed that shit never happens. Kobe missing playoffs. Kobe was also hurt and missed games but dont let facts blind your hate. But bottom line he did miss the playoffs.

3. Of course rings are a team accomplishment, no shit. But out of major team sports NBA is most impacted by the stars. But the hypocrisy of Duncan supportes are ridiculous.

Duncan disciple: Championships are overated, although it's one of the reasons Duncan is greater than Malone. It's a team accomplishment so counting rings are dumb.

Riddle me this? IF winning a title is a team achievement, then how the fuck is missing the playoffs a individual one? and if one of the pillars of the argument is Duncan's career win%, never losing a Finals and never missing the playoffs only career stats, advanced stats and individual honors are left.

Rings matter, when discussing HOF players. Period. Spur fan just hate 5>4 ...hence plenty of the hate on here.

[LkrFan]

Ok, now they tanked? :lol

Yes. It was clear as day what they were doing. It worked. :toast

[LkrFan]

1. Kareem missed two and he is greater than Everyone mentioned on this list sans MJ ...and that is even debateable.

2. Duncan was never head coached by: Del Harris, Rambis or a "diminished" Rudy T. If PJ stayed that shit never happens. Kobe missing playoffs. Kobe was also hurt and missed games but dont let facts blind your hate. But bottom line he did miss the playoffs.

3. Of course rings are a team accomplishment, no shit. But out of major team sports NBA is most impacted by the stars. But the hypocrisy of Duncan supportes are ridiculous.

Duncan disciple: Championships are overated, although it's one of the reasons Duncan is greater than Malone. It's a team accomplishment so counting rings are dumb.

Riddle me this? IF winning a title is a team achievement, then how the fuck is missing the playoffs a individual one? and if one of the pillars of the argument is Duncan's career win%, never losing a Finals and never missing the playoffs only career stats, advanced stats and individual honors are left.

Rings matter, when discussing HOF players. Period. Spur fan just hate 5>4 ...hence plenty of the hate on here.

Killa with the indisputable goods. Props. :toast

[Wild Cobra Kai]

2000-2001 and 2001-2002 were pretty damn weak Duncan supporting casts.

[Wild Cobra Kai]

Riddle me this? IF winning a title is a team achievement, then how the fuck is missing the playoffs a individual one? and if one of the pillars of the argument is Duncan's career win%, never losing a Finals and never missing the playoffs only career stats, advanced stats and individual honors are left.

Because one player can't do the first, but certainly CAN do the second, if he's worth his salt. Shit, Iverson probably made the playoffs 2/3 times with worse casts than Kobes YEAR OF FAILURE. His Finals Team may have been worse.
/goods

[LkrFan]

2000-2001 and 2001-2002 were pretty damn weak Duncan supporting casts.

Weaker than this?

http://freecelebritygraphics.com/images/celebs/Los%20Angeles%20Lakers/lakers_desktop_image.gif

Pop quiz: How many made an all star team? One. Bonus question: How many are still in the league? :lol

[LkrFan]

But did Shaq, Duncan, Lebron or heck even Dirk missed the PO (in their primes)?

Unlike those players, when Kobe won, he always repeated the following year as champion. ;)

[Wild Cobra Kai]

Weaker than this?

http://freecelebritygraphics.com/images/celebs/Los%20Angeles%20Lakers/lakers_desktop_image.gif

Pop quiz: How many made an all star team? One. Bonus question: How many are still in the league? :lol


LOL Tim Duncan made the WCF with Terry Porter, Antonio Daniels, and Danny Ferry as starters and with decrepit Porter the third best player on the team.

I think the bolded factoid says it all. Western Conference Finals with those players starting. Your Laker team had Kobe in his prime, LO, and a puppy Bynum who was actually able to play 82 games.

Duncan was truly a beast his first 8 years.

[LkrFan]

I think the bolded factoid says it all. Western Conference Finals with those players starting. Your Laker team had Kobe in his prime, LO, and a puppy Bynum who was actually able to play 82 games.

Duncan was truly a beast his first 8 years.

No, it doesn't.

Porter > Sm:lolsh
Daniels > V:loljacic
Ferry > C:lol:lolk

Where is Farmar? Remember when PP won Finals MVP over VladRad? I do. What about McKie? True TOSB if I ever saw one. On and on...

Bynum? Please. Go look up how many mpg he had that year. He was hardly the player he is today.

And Kobe is still a beast after 16 years...:toast

[Wild Cobra Kai]

No, it doesn't.

Porter > Sm:lolsh
Daniels > V:loljacic
Ferry > C:lol:lolk

Where is Farmar? Remember when PP won Finals MVP over VladRad? I do. What about McKie? True TOSB if I ever saw one. On and on...

Bynum? Please. Go look up how many mpg he had that year. He was hardly the player he is today.

And Kobe is still a beast after 16 years...:toast

Cook started 24 games? Vujacic started 4? Not really comparing apples to oranges when you're comparing your pathetic bench to our pathetic starters.

[LkrFan]

Cook started 24 games? Vujacic started 4? Not really comparing apples to oranges when you're comparing your pathetic bench to our pathetic starters.

:lmao

[Killakobe81]

Because one player can't do the first, but certainly CAN do the second, if he's worth his salt. Shit, Iverson probably made the playoffs 2/3 times with worse casts than Kobes YEAR OF FAILURE. His Finals Team may have been worse.
/goods

If you beleve that bullshit you are either:

1. Prone to exaggeration
2. an Iverson fan
3. Dont no shit about basketball

But it is defintely at least 2 of the 3 ...

[Sean Cagney]

LOL Tim Duncan made the WCF with Terry Porter, Antonio Daniels, and Danny Ferry as starters and with decrepit Porter the third best player on the team.

This here will always win the argument........ Cherokke Parks got minutes one year too and so on. Tim had some shit next to him a few years, but still brought them far.

[DMC]

1. Kareem missed two and he is greater than Everyone mentioned on this list sans MJ ...and that is even debatable.

2. Duncan was never head coached by: Del Harris, Rambis or a "diminished" Rudy T. If PJ stayed that shit never happens. Kobe missing playoffs. Kobe was also hurt and missed games but dont let facts blind your hate. But bottom line he did miss the playoffs.

3. Of course rings are a team accomplishment, no shit. But out of major team sports NBA is most impacted by the stars. But the hypocrisy of Duncan supportes are ridiculous.

Duncan disciple: Championships are overated, although it's one of the reasons Duncan is greater than Malone. It's a team accomplishment so counting rings are dumb.

Riddle me this? IF winning a title is a team achievement, then how the fuck is missing the playoffs a individual one? and if one of the pillars of the argument is Duncan's career win%, never losing a Finals and never missing the playoffs only career stats, advanced stats and individual honors are left.

Rings matter, when discussing HOF players. Period. Spur fan just hate 5>4 ...hence plenty of the hate on here.

You acting like the Lakers and their bandwagon fanbase aren't loathed league wide :lmao

[BigTex342006]

Look at the shooting percentages of the supporting cast of Duncan's in the 2003 playoffs:

.403, .414, 372, .386, .419, .438, and .286 (Robinson shot .542 but was playing only about 20 minutes a game by then).

Duncan led his team in points, rebounds, assists, block shots, and minutes played on the way to the championship. Could Kobe ever put a team on his back like Duncan did in 03? Nope.

As far as career's go, I think Duncan get's the nod. The only thing Kobe leads Duncan in is championships 5-4 and Kobe was the best player on maybe 2 and a half of those.

Playoff stats:
Duncan - 22.3 pts 12.1 rbs 3.4 asts 2.5 blks .501 fg% 25.3 PER 98 def R
Kobe - 25.6 pts 5.1 rbs 4.7 asts 1.4 stls .448 fg% 22.4 PER 106 def R

ROY - Duncan 1 Kobe 0
MVP's - Duncan 2 Kobe 1
FMVP - Duncan 3 Kobe 2
All NBA - Duncan 13/15 Kobe 14/16
All D - Duncan 13/15 Kobe 12/16
Rape Charges - Duncan 0 Kobe 1
Trade demands - Duncan 0 Kobe 1 (that I know of)

Kobe in his prime led his team to a 121-125 record over a stretch of 3 years as lead dog. Duncan in his prime could have probably led a group of YMCA players to the playoffs and done better than under .500 ball.

I love the mentality of "well, Duncan never repeated..." That is ignorant, you could easily say that Duncan won 3 titles in 5 years (arguably two plays away from a 5-peat), while Kobe and Shaq won 3 in 5 as well.

Kobe is/was a great player, but no doubt had he went to the Hornets out of high school, we aren't having this discussion. I'll take Duncan...

[LkrFan]

Look at the shooting percentages of the supporting cast of Duncan's in the 2003 playoffs:

.403, .414, 372, .386, .419, .438, .286 Robinsin shot .542 but was playing only about 20 minutes by then.

Duncan led his team in points, rebounds, assists, block shots, and minutes played on the way to the championship. Could Kobe ever put a team on his back like Duncan did in 03? Nope.

As far as career's go, I think Duncan get's the nod. The only thing Kobe leads Duncan in is championships 5-4 and Kobe was the best player on maybe 2 and a half of those.

Playoff stats:
Duncan - 22.3 pts 12.1 rbs 3.4 asts 2.5 blks .501 fg% 25.3 PER 98 def R
Kobe - 25.6 pts 5.1 rbs 4.7 asts 1.4 stls .448 fg% 22.4 PER 106 def R

ROY - Duncan 1 Kobe 0
MVP's - Duncan 2 Kobe 1
FMVP - Duncan 3 Kobe 2
All NBA - Duncan 13/15 Kobe 14/16
All D - Duncan 13/15 Kobe 12/16
Rape Charges - Duncan 0 Kobe 1
Trade demands - Duncan 0 Kobe 1 (that I know of)

Kobe in his prime led his team to a 121-125 over a stretch of 3 years as lead dog. Duncan in his prime could have probably led a group of YMCA players to the playoffs and done better than under .500

I love the mentality of "well, Duncan never repeated..." That is ignorant, you could easily say that Duncan won 3 titles in 5 years (arguably two plays away from a 5-peat), while Kobe and Shaq won 3 in 5 as well.

Kobe is/was a great player, but no doubt had he went to the Bobcats out of high school, we aren't having this discussion. I'll take Duncan...
Bobcats didn't exist in 1996. :rollin :lmao :rollin

[BigTex342006]

Two comments:

1) We tanked to get Bynum. Anybody that saw that Laker team play knows the tank job was in full effect. Making the playoffs that year would have been futile.
2) Those two first round exits were to a loaded, clearly superior Suns team. Hell, if not for Horry's cheap shot in 2007 Duncan is sitting on 3 rangs. Real talk. They had you guys on the ropes until Horry's kill shot.


Tanked to get Bynum? You are not tanking when your most important player is playing over 40 minutes and shooting 25-30 times a game. That is trying as hard as you can. I seriously doubt Kobe would not try and win games...you should know better than that.

As far as thinking the hip check determined Phoenix's result in the playoff in 2007... get real. Amare was out one game...he was in Phoenix's line-up for the other 5 games. Phoenix lost 3 of those, including the game opener at home. SA owned Phoenix during their run and gun phase...

(obviously I meant Charlotte and not bobcats...)

[LkrFan]

Tanked to get Bynum? You are not tanking when your most important player is playing over 40 minutes and shooting 25-30 times a game. That is trying as hard as you can. I seriously doubt Kobe would not try and win games...you should know better than that.

As far as thinking the hip check determined Phoenix's result in the playoff in 2007... get real. Amare was out one game...he was in Phoenix's line-up for the other 5 games. Phoenix lost 3 of those, including the game opener at home. SA owned Phoenix during their run and gun phase...

(obviously I meant Charlotte and not bobcats...)

Kobe would try to score against anybody. No matter the circumstances. :lol

The tank job fix was in. :downspin: it all you want. :toast

[nowhereman523]

Look at the shooting percentages of the supporting cast of Duncan's in the 2003 playoffs:

.403, .414, 372, .386, .419, .438, .286 Robinsin shot .542 but was playing only about 20 minutes by then.

Duncan led his team in points, rebounds, assists, block shots, and minutes played on the way to the championship. Could Kobe ever put a team on his back like Duncan did in 03? Nope.

As far as career's go, I think Duncan get's the nod. The only thing Kobe leads Duncan in is championships 5-4 and Kobe was the best player on maybe 2 and a half of those.

Playoff stats:
Duncan - 22.3 pts 12.1 rbs 3.4 asts 2.5 blks .501 fg% 25.3 PER 98 def R
Kobe - 25.6 pts 5.1 rbs 4.7 asts 1.4 stls .448 fg% 22.4 PER 106 def R

ROY - Duncan 1 Kobe 0
MVP's - Duncan 2 Kobe 1
FMVP - Duncan 3 Kobe 2
All NBA - Duncan 13/15 Kobe 14/16
All D - Duncan 13/15 Kobe 12/16
Rape Charges - Duncan 0 Kobe 1
Trade demands - Duncan 0 Kobe 1 (that I know of)

Kobe in his prime led his team to a 121-125 over a stretch of 3 years as lead dog. Duncan in his prime could have probably led a group of YMCA players to the playoffs and done better than under .500

I love the mentality of "well, Duncan never repeated..." That is ignorant, you could easily say that Duncan won 3 titles in 5 years (arguably two plays away from a 5-peat), while Kobe and Shaq won 3 in 5 as well.

Kobe is/was a great player, but no doubt had he went to the Bobcats out of high school, we aren't having this discussion. I'll take Duncan...

Nice.

[Wild Cobra Kai]

Two comments:

1) We tanked to get Bynum. Anybody that saw that Laker team play knows the tank job was in full effect. Making the playoffs that year would have been futile.
2) Those two first round exits were to a loaded, clearly superior Suns team. Hell, if not for Horry's cheap shot in 2007 Duncan is sitting on 3 rangs. Real talk. They had you guys on the ropes until Horry's kill shot.

Uh, no. The series was tied, but if you look at the history of the Suns series from 2003,2005, and 2007, we had a better record on their floor than our own, and they had the opportunity to extend the series to two more home games, and whiffed. That team was talented, but short in the nuts department. You should be ashamed you lost to them. They had everyone back for game 6 (we were still short Horry) and they couldn't take a road game to bring it back to PHO. Not elite. It wouldn't have mattered, though, Like I told you, we had a better playoff record on their floor than our own. We were taking game 7 if it came to that. They knew it, too.

[LkrFan]

Uh, no. The series was tied, but if you look at the history of the Suns series from 2003,2005, and 2007, we had a better record on their floor than our own, and they had the opportunity to extend the series to two more home games, and whiffed. That team was talented, but short in the nuts department. You should be ashamed you lost to them. They had everyone back for game 6 (we were still short Horry) and they couldn't take a road game to bring it back to PHO. Not elite. It wouldn't have mattered, though, Like I told you, we had a better playoff record on their floor than our own. We were taking game 7 if it came to that. They knew it, too.

:lol - you need to look at that shitstained roster the Lakers trotted out and explain the bolded to me again. :lol

We'll agree to disagree on this topic. I wholeheartedly believe that during the game in question, until Horry's cheap shot, they were going to beat you guys. They had all of the momentum until they were Horry'd. That 2007 title should get an asterisk as well. The better team was cheated, I mean lost.
:lol

[Clipper Nation]

You acting like the Lakers and their bandwagon fanbase aren't loathed league wide :lmao

:cry "But... but... they hate us because we win! Our frontrunning douchebag takes have nothing to do with it!" :cry

[ElNono]

Why is this thread still going? This thread effectively ended when LkrFan said he doesn't hate Lebron and everybody proceeded to laugh their asses off...

[ambchang]

Unlike those players, when Kobe won, he always repeated the following year as champion. ;)

More evidence as to the quality of the make up of the team.

Balanced, strong teams have a better chance of repeat that teams that rest on one or two stars, because the things that can go wrong on a main cog in the team is higher than things going wrong for an entire make up of the team.

[ambchang]

1. Kareem missed two and he is greater than Everyone mentioned on this list sans MJ ...and that is even debatable.

I hope I am reading this wrong, but please, please don’t tell me that you are throwing the great KAR under the bus to save Kobe, please.

Kareem missed two playoffs in an era when there were 10 playoff teams, not 16. Also, it was at the height of the cocaine era, team management is totally different than the modern NBA, and there is the ABA competing with the NBA. It was, if anything, a total aberration in the history of professional basketball.


2. Duncan was never head coached by: Del Harris, Rambis or a "diminished" Rudy T. If PJ stayed that shit never happens. Kobe missing playoffs. Kobe was also hurt and missed games but dont let facts blind your hate. But bottom line he did miss the playoffs.
Rudy T won 2 championships, how was he diminished? Del Harris has been a head coach for 14 years, and once as the coach of the year, what is wrong with that? Yes, Rambis sucked.[/quote]


3. Of course rings are a team accomplishment, no shit. But out of major team sports NBA is most impacted by the stars. But the hypocrisy of Duncan supportes are ridiculous.

Duncan disciple: Championships are overated, although it's one of the reasons Duncan is greater than Malone. It's a team accomplishment so counting rings are dumb.

Riddle me this? IF winning a title is a team achievement, then how the fuck is missing the playoffs a individual one? and if one of the pillars of the argument is Duncan's career win%, never losing a Finals and never missing the playoffs only career stats, advanced stats and individual honors are left.

A star, if good enough, can carry a team to the playoffs on his own because of the exact reason you said, that NBA is most impacted by stars. On the other hand, the disparity between top stars in the NBA is relatively small, and the reasons they win or not win a ring, and most importantly in this argument, how many rings they win, at the end is due to the quality of coaching, teammates, and sometimes luck.

Duncan > Malone not because of just the # of rings, Duncan > Malone because of his ability to lead his team to rings. If Duncan had crap teammates throughout his lifetime and never won a ring, he would still > Malone because of his leadership, his defense, and his ability to run an offense.


Rings matter, when discussing HOF players. Period. Spur fan just hate 5>4 ...hence plenty of the hate on here.
Having Shaq win 3 of those rings for you doesn’t mean 5>4. You acting like a ring = a ring = a ring = a ring. That is not true. Kobe was the clear #2 in 2 of those rings, and that is not even arguable, and he was, in my mind, a clear #2 in ring #3 as well, but some revisionist are now putting equal billing on Kobe and Shaq on that #3, which I absolutely disagree.

There is plenty of hate in here because of this over simplification of greatness, and you have personified it. Yes 5>4 mathematically, but to say that Kobe > Duncan because he has one more ring while ignoring all the other circumstances is being stupid. I can see how a bandwagon fans can filter things to that level of detail (which is none), because bandwagoners do not know the history of the game, they do not know the context. But you, who clearly knows the history of the game, who clearly has a huge amount of knowledge, just chose to stick your head in the sand, the resort to 5>4 as some form of holy argument, when you know that this is not the case at all.

[Killakobe81]

I hope I am reading this wrong, but please, please don’t tell me that you are throwing the great KAR under the bus to save Kobe, please.

Kareem missed two playoffs in an era when there were 10 playoff teams, not 16. Also, it was at the height of the cocaine era, team management is totally different than the modern NBA, and there is the ABA competing with the NBA. It was, if anything, a total aberration in the history of professional basketball.


Rudy T won 2 championships, how was he diminished? Del Harris has been a head coach for 14 years, and once as the coach of the year, what is wrong with that? Yes, Rambis sucked.


Amb, reading like Timmy ... is FUN-DA-MENTAL. In what world is saying

1. "Kareem is better than ANYONE mentioned in this thread (including Kobe) sans MJ but he missed the playoffs twice... throwing him under the bus to save Kobe? :lol Like my boy DPG says "That doesnt make ANY sense". I just gave Kareem respect in a forum where he hardly gets any commesirate with his impact to the game of basketball. He missed it twice, that is just a fact. Kobe missed it once Duncan's team lost to an 8th seed shit happens.

2. Im sorry but how is Duncan's leadership any more tangible than just saying Duncan is better because I said so? I dont doubt duncan is PROBABLY a great leader, but we dont know that. And to be honest (just like PJ with MJ and Kobe) I would argue Pop is the real leader of the Spurs anyway. I give Duncan credit (Pop does too) for ALLOWING Pop to lead, because Duncan could be an ass ...but he lets Pop berate him like he is Bonner from time to time and that is great leadership. It's alos great leadership to let a better leader (Pop) lead.

* and before you post some bullshit about the Kobe/Shaq feud, Kobe let Fisher lead, agreed to let PJ come back etc. Dont get me wrong Kobe's leadership style is more abrasive and less desirable than Duncan's but they both get results ...

3. Im not here to argue that Kobe wasn't a #2 (2000-2001) that doesnt matter. Magic was a #2 early on his career no one makes those arguments. Sure Duncan was the alpha for all 4 of his ... kudos. Still doesnt mean he had the greater career. But I will make that case when kobe is done. For now we shall agree to disagree.

4. Lastly Im not stat lover so I wont make the case for Malone. But there are career win share numbers that favor Malone. I posted an article that had the details some months back. To be honest, I was shocked. But it just goes to show you how stats can be "juked" (The Wire!!!!) to fit whatever argument you want to make. I dont care what the stats say Duncan is superior to Malone and I can see that with my eyes and the RINGS bear that out as well. I feel the same about Kobe over Duncan but it's much closer.

Rudy T sucked. He was a good coach for the Rox but his cancer or maybe winning those two titles sucked the life out of him. Or just maybe the L.A spot-light was too much for him. Del was a smart coach but had no balls.

[BigTex342006]

4. Lastly Im not stat lover so I wont make the case for Malone. But there are career win share numbers that favor Malone. I posted an article that had the details some months back. To be honest, I was shocked. But it just goes to show you how stats can be "juked" (The Wire!!!!) to fit whatever argument you want to make. I dont care what the stats say Duncan is superior to Malone and I can see that with my eyes and the RINGS bear that out as well. I feel the same about Kobe over Duncan but it's much closer.


Malone's career regular season win shares are more than Duncan simply because he played 19 years. If you look at win shares per 48, Duncan is higher, .214 to .205. Playoff win shares are decidedly higher for Duncan than Malone...

Malone was a regular season beast but typically was less efficient in the playoffs, going from .516 to .463 fg%...pretty significant drop and that is a huge sample size. That and he was bounced out of the first round nine times...

fwiw

[Killakobe81]

4. Lastly Im not stat lover so I wont make the case for Malone. But there are career win share numbers that favor Malone. I posted an article that had the details some months back. To be honest, I was shocked. But it just goes to show you how stats can be "juked" (The Wire!!!!) to fit whatever argument you want to make. I dont care what the stats say Duncan is superior to Malone and I can see that with my eyes and the RINGS bear that out as well. I feel the same about Kobe over Duncan but it's much closer.


Malone's career regular season win shares are more than Duncan simply because he played 19 years. If you look at win shares per 48, Duncan is higher, .214 to .205. Playoff win shares are decidedly higher for Duncan than Malone...

Malone was a regular season beast but typically was less efficient in the playoffs, going from .516 to .463 fg%...pretty significant drop and that is a huge sample size. That and he was bounced out of the first round nine times...

fwiw
again Im not a stat head but how is career win % skewed by the length of their career. Shouldnt the fact Malone hung as he declined lowered his win share numbers. And per 48 mins stats are so full of crap. there are plenty of per 48 numbers that make role playing rebounders appear to be Dennis rodman but when they play more minitues, it's a case of diminishing returns. Duncan is a great player one of the greatest I have seen though let's ne honest he really is a center since David left, not a PF ... so the comparison is faulty to begin with. But part of what made Malone great was his durability and ability to log heavy minutes at an advanced age. Pop has been protecting duncan minutes wise for years now. Plus either Duncan or the front-office has been playing the PF masquerade for over 6 years now ...

[ambchang]

Amb, reading like Timmy ... is FUN-DA-MENTAL. In what world is saying

1. "Kareem is better than ANYONE mentioned in this thread (including Kobe) sans MJ but he missed the playoffs twice... throwing him under the bus to save Kobe? :lol Like my boy DPG says "That doesnt make ANY sense". I just gave Kareem respect in a forum where he hardly gets any commesirate with his impact to the game of basketball. He missed it twice, that is just a fact. Kobe missed it once Duncan's team lost to an 8th seed shit happens.
What does this have to do with Duncan losing to an 8th seed?
Also, you did throw Kareem under the bus. Highlighting his moments of failure under totally different circumstances, twisting it to equate it to Kobe’s moment of failure is throwing him under the bus.


2. Im sorry but how is Duncan's leadership any more tangible than just saying Duncan is better because I said so? I dont doubt duncan is PROBABLY a great leader, but we dont know that. And to be honest (just like PJ with MJ and Kobe) I would argue Pop is the real leader of the Spurs anyway. I give Duncan credit (Pop does too) for ALLOWING Pop to lead, because Duncan could be an ass ...but he lets Pop berate him like he is Bonner from time to time and that is great leadership. It's alos great leadership to let a better leader (Pop) lead.

* and before you post some bullshit about the Kobe/Shaq feud, Kobe let Fisher lead, agreed to let PJ come back etc. Dont get me wrong Kobe's leadership style is more abrasive and less desirable than Duncan's but they both get results ...
Duncan never hit on his teammates wife for one. Didn’t force Robinson out of the Spurs like Malone with Dantley.
Leading by example is a great thing. I am not ready for Duncan to come out and demand trades, saying your young teammate is a sack of shit, and running a HoF center out of town to feed his ego.

3. Im not here to argue that Kobe wasn't a #2 (2000-2001) that doesnt matter. Magic was a #2 early on his career no one makes those arguments. Sure Duncan was the alpha for all 4 of his ... kudos. Still doesnt mean he had the greater career. But I will make that case when kobe is done. For now we shall agree to disagree.

So 5>4, despite you admitting that at least 2 of the 5 were Kobe as a second option?


4. Lastly Im not stat lover so I wont make the case for Malone. But there are career win share numbers that favor Malone. I posted an article that had the details some months back. To be honest, I was shocked. But it just goes to show you how stats can be "juked" (The Wire!!!!) to fit whatever argument you want to make. I dont care what the stats say Duncan is superior to Malone and I can see that with my eyes and the RINGS bear that out as well. I feel the same about Kobe over Duncan but it's much closer.
You mean this?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career.html
Malone played many more years, which makes sense to me.
Career win shares takes into account team success as well, so teammates do matter. It’s actually much closer to rings than other traditional stats like points and rebounds, etc ... In other words, saying career wins is an iffy argument to rank one player over another is much closer to saying number of rings is an iffy argument to rank one player over another than points/rebounds, etc ...

Rudy T sucked. He was a good coach for the Rox but his cancer or maybe winning those two titles sucked the life out of him. Or just maybe the L.A spot-light was too much for him. Del was a smart coach but had no balls.
Rudy didn’t suck, he didn’t have players to play his brand of ball. His model has always been simple, have a center of gravity to suck in the defensive attention, then distribute the ball accordingly during doubles-triples.
He had the center of gravity, just didn’t have him distributing the ball like he wanted.

[Killakobe81]

What does this have to do with Duncan losing to an 8th seed?
Also, you did throw Kareem under the bus. Highlighting his moments of failure under totally different circumstances, twisting it to equate it to Kobe’s moment of failure is throwing him under the bus.


Duncan never hit on his teammates wife for one. Didn’t force Robinson out of the Spurs like Malone with Dantley.
Leading by example is a great thing. I am not ready for Duncan to come out and demand trades, saying your young teammate is a sack of shit, and running a HoF center out of town to feed his ego.


So 5>4, despite you admitting that at least 2 of the 5 were Kobe as a second option?

You mean this?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career.html
Malone played many more years, which makes sense to me.
Career win shares takes into account team success as well, so teammates do matter. It’s actually much closer to rings than other traditional stats like points and rebounds, etc ... In other words, saying career wins is an iffy argument to rank one player over another is much closer to saying number of rings is an iffy argument to rank one player over another than points/rebounds, etc ...

Rudy didn’t suck, he didn’t have players to play his brand of ball. His model has always been simple, have a center of gravity to suck in the defensive attention, then distribute the ball accordingly during doubles-triples.
He had the center of gravity, just didn’t have him distributing the ball like he wanted.

Please READ IT AGAIN and WHERE did I say that Kareem's failure is equal to Kobe's? Please enlighten me. You seem to take a great leap here, to try and attack an opposing view. I was just finding a "glory hole" in your argument. Kobe missed the playoffs so has Kareem twice. Kobe missiing it is more glaring, sure ...but they BOTH missed the playoffs ...and both are considered by most better than Duncan .. But Duncan has never missed the playoffs so you still have THAT.

Kobe maybe a shitty leader, Malone too. I could not care less. He led two title teams and was co-leader of another and was the clear #2 on two others. Maybe he helped lead maybe it was pretty much all PJ. Im rating Kobe's career (so far) and his success on the court and his failures as well. Im not interested if he studied Ken Blanchard, Steven Covey or even McArthur, or Ulysses S Grant. (look them up) We all know he studied MJ and what we have is a lessor version of MJ ... but that is STILL greater than Timmy. No shame in Tim being the third greatest player of this era (post MJ) or Shaq being fourth...besides Lebron may end up passing all of them. Shit happens.

[BigTex342006]

again Im not a stat head but how is career win % skewed by the length of their career. Shouldnt the fact Malone hung as he declined lowered his win share numbers. And per 48 mins stats are so full of crap. there are plenty of per 48 numbers that make role playing rebounders appear to be Dennis rodman but when they play more minitues, it's a case of diminishing returns. Duncan is a great player one of the greatest I have seen though let's ne honest he really is a center since David left, not a PF ... so the comparison is faulty to begin with. But part of what made Malone great was his durability and ability to log heavy minutes at an advanced age. Pop has been protecting duncan minutes wise for years now. Plus either Duncan or the front-office has been playing the PF masquerade for over 6 years now ...


I am not sure where you read that Malone had better win shares than Duncan (whatever that means). The point of basketball reference per 48 on win shares is to even out the stat based on time spent on the court and games played. They list total win shares (something like amount of extra games won based on a player's performance, etc), and win shares per 48 minutes. It is simply win shares divided by overall minutes played. Malone has a higher overall number simply because he played so many more games. That is like saying that Karl Malone was the second greatest player of all time based on his overall points total.

I don't like per 48 when comparing stats straight up, because nobody plays that many minutes. Per 36 is much more telling...and only so if you are comparing players with fair to alot of minutes and fairly close in minutes played. You can't use the stat for a scrub that plays a few minutes and extrapolate it to 36. Comparing a player that plays 28-34 minutes (for example) as his coach is trying to limit playing too much is fair to compare to someone that plays 38-40 minutes.

As all stats go, either one of these is not the end all....but they are a useful tool to guage effectiveness on the court per minute played.

Everybody nationally claims a huge drop for Duncan because his numbers have dropped (he has defensively dropped no doubt)....but if you look at what he does for the time he spends on the court, his numbers are mind-numbingly consistent...

[Killakobe81]

I am not sure where you read that Malone had better win shares than Duncan (whatever that means). The point of basketball reference per 48 on win shares is to even out the stat based on time spent on the court and games played. They list total win shares (something like amount of extra games won based on a player's performance, etc), and win shares per 48 minutes. It is simply win shares divided by overall minutes played. Malone has a higher overall number simply because he played so many more games. That is like saying that Karl Malone was the second greatest player of all time based on his overall points total.

I don't like per 48 when comparing stats straight up, because nobody plays that many minutes. Per 36 is much more telling...and only so if you are comparing players with fair to alot of minutes and fairly close in minutes played. You can't use the stat for a scrub that plays a few minutes and extrapolate it to 36. Comparing a player that plays 28-34 minutes (for example) as his coach is trying to limit playing too much is fair to compare to someone that plays 38-40 minutes.

As all stats go, either one of these is not the end all....but they are a useful tool to guage effectiveness on the court per minute played.

Everybody nationally claims a huge drop for Duncan because his numbers have dropped (he has defensively dropped no doubt)....but if you look at what he does for the time he spends on the court, his numbers are mind-numbingly consistent...

Here is the article (http://saltcityhoops.com/2010/08/11/karl-malone-best-power-forward-of-all-time/)

Like I said I dont agree, and Im pretty sure Salt city Hoops has an agenda with making that case just like you guys have a biased reason here. But just pointing out how you can pick and choose stats to support whatever you want. They make a strong case and BR has done the same on here. But spur fans only enjoy BR's "truth bombs" when Kobe is the target. What a bunch of hypocrites ...

[Killakobe81]

From the article:

The case for Karl Malone as the best power forward of all time:

When you look at Karl Malone’s stats compared to Tim Duncan it is hard to make the case that Duncan is a better player that Malone. Why? Because it is hard to make the case that many players are better than Karl Malone by looking at the stats. He is 2nd all time in career points and 3rd all time in win shares (an estimate of the number of wins contributed by a player) with more win shares than everyone but Kareem and Wilt. Tim Duncan would need 6 more years of his average production to equal Malone. As it currently stands he is still isn’t within shouting distance of the Mailman. However, any Duncan supporter might bring up the fact that of course Malone’s career numbers would be better because he played 19 seasons. If we take that away and just compare averages here are some points in favor of Malone:

•Scoring: Malone averaged 25 points per game. Duncan 21.1.
•Efficiency: Malone shot 51.6% from the floor and 74.2% from the line. Duncan’s respective numbers; 50.8% and 68.7%.
•Reliability: Malone’s work ethic and incredible conditioning was legendary and that shows in the numbers. He played in 99.3% of the Jazz possible games during his 18 year career in Utah . Duncan so far with San Antonio has only played in 94.5% of the possible games. Over an 82 game NBA season that means that Malone would play in about 4 more games than Duncan.
•Longevity: The same conditioning led him to be able to play for so long at such a high level. Not to say that Duncan can’t do that, but let’s see if he is still playing as effectively as Malone was when he was 39 and still contributed 11.1 wins (10th in the league) to the 2002-2003 Jazz team.
•Front line help – Sure this is a little subjective, but I think that playing with the Greg Ostertags and Felton Spencers of the world didn’t help Malone quite as much as playing along side David Robinson helped Duncan.

[nowhereman523]

From the article:

The case for Karl Malone as the best power forward of all time:

When you look at Karl Malone’s stats compared to Tim Duncan it is hard to make the case that Duncan is a better player that Malone. Why? Because it is hard to make the case that many players are better than Karl Malone by looking at the stats. He is 2nd all time in career points and 3rd all time in win shares (an estimate of the number of wins contributed by a player) with more win shares than everyone but Kareem and Wilt. Tim Duncan would need 6 more years of his average production to equal Malone. As it currently stands he is still isn’t within shouting distance of the Mailman. However, any Duncan supporter might bring up the fact that of course Malone’s career numbers would be better because he played 19 seasons. If we take that away and just compare averages here are some points in favor of Malone:

•Scoring: Malone averaged 25 points per game. Duncan 21.1.
•Efficiency: Malone shot 51.6% from the floor and 74.2% from the line. Duncan’s respective numbers; 50.8% and 68.7%.
•Reliability: Malone’s work ethic and incredible conditioning was legendary and that shows in the numbers. He played in 99.3% of the Jazz possible games during his 18 year career in Utah . Duncan so far with San Antonio has only played in 94.5% of the possible games. Over an 82 game NBA season that means that Malone would play in about 4 more games than Duncan.
•Longevity: The same conditioning led him to be able to play for so long at such a high level. Not to say that Duncan can’t do that, but let’s see if he is still playing as effectively as Malone was when he was 39 and still contributed 11.1 wins (10th in the league) to the 2002-2003 Jazz team.
•Front line help – Sure this is a little subjective, but I think that playing with the Greg Ostertags and Felton Spencers of the world didn’t help Malone quite as much as playing along side David Robinson helped Duncan.


•Scoring: Nowitzki averaged 22.9 points per game. Duncan 21.1.
•Efficiency: Nowitzki has a 58.1 TS%, 51.1% EFG. Duncan: 55.1%, 50.8%
•Reliability: Nowitzki has played in 95.9% of the Mavericks' possible regular season games in his career. Duncan so far with San Antonio has only played in 94.5% of the possible games.
• Longevity: Remains to be seen, but advanced stats show that given his shooting ability and height, Nowitzki can be a highly effective player for a very long time.
• Front line help: Erick Dampier, Desagna Diop, Shawn Bradley, Brendan Haywood have all significantly handicapped Nowitzki. The one year Dirk was paired with a borderline all-star at center, he won the championship and was FMVP with a legendary season.

...

I don't believe Dirk > Duncan, but clearly you do?

[Killakobe81]

•Scoring: Nowitzki averaged 22.9 points per game. Duncan 21.1.
•Efficiency: Nowitzki has a 58.1 TS%, 51.1% EFG. Duncan: 55.1%, 50.8%
•Reliability: Nowitzki has played in 95.9% of the Mavericks' possible regular season games in his career. Duncan so far with San Antonio has only played in 94.5% of the possible games.
• Longevity: Remains to be seen, but advanced stats show that given his shooting ability and height, Nowitzki can be a highly effective player for a very long time.
• Front line help: Erick Dampier, Desagna Diop, Shawn Bradley, Brendan Haywood have all significantly handicapped Nowitzki. The one year Dirk was paired with a borderline all-star at center, he won the championship and was FMVP with a legendary season.

...

I don't believe Dirk > Duncan, but clearly you do?

You missed the whole point. No I dont think Dirk is better than Duncan, who does? No I dont think Malone is better than Duncan, not many do but there are some who can make a credible case using the same flawed statistics used in the Kobe vs. Duncan debate. My point is and has ALWAYS been (not just when it is convienent) is that when you are looking at the best of the best. (Malone, Duncan, MJ, Shaq Hakeem Kobe etc.). The EYE test and and RINGS are what matter most TO ME. Sure, it's a "team sport" ... but team sports are competitions and competition is about winning so it matters. How could it not? All of those guys are amazing players. All of them have great stats and accolades. So how can you seperate them? Winning the ultimate prize. That is why Duncan is greater than Malone, Kobe is greater than duncan and Mj greater than both.

I can find stats that favor Kobe. I can find some that favor Tim or Malone or Shaq. But my EYES tell me that MJ is greater than all of them. My Eyes also tell me Kobe is a distant second. the rings reflect that as well. I never saw Kareem in his prime so I can not accurately place him. There are plenty of smart basketball people that favor Duncan over Kobe. There are plenty more that favor Kobe.

I just scoff at those that use stats as their end all be all because that is not gonna end any debate just like ring counts alone wont win that debate. You have to factor:

1. Rings (not as a role player)
2. Traditional Stats
3. Advanced stats
4. The "eye" test (very subjective but important)
5. Individual accolades

Using only one or two of these is dreadfully incomplete ...

[Leetonidas]

I prefer Finals MVPs. 2<3 :toast

[ambchang]

Please READ IT AGAIN and WHERE did I say that Kareem's failure is equal to Kobe's? Please enlighten me. You seem to take a great leap here, to try and attack an opposing view. I was just finding a "glory hole" in your argument. Kobe missed the playoffs so has Kareem twice. Kobe missiing it is more glaring, sure ...but they BOTH missed the playoffs ...and both are considered by most better than Duncan .. But Duncan has never missed the playoffs so you still have THAT.

You seem to somehow come to conclusion that Kobe is considered > Duncan by most. How did you come up with that? I don’t agree with it.

Kareem OTOH, I am sure is rated higher than Duncan.

As for throwing KAJ under the bus. Highlighting his failure to say that he is the same as Kobe in that department is throwing him under the bus.


Kobe maybe a shitty leader, Malone too. I could not care less. He led two title teams and was co-leader of another and was the clear #2 on two others. Maybe he helped lead maybe it was pretty much all PJ. Im rating Kobe's career (so far) and his success on the court and his failures as well. Im not interested if he studied Ken Blanchard, Steven Covey or even McArthur, or Ulysses S Grant. (look them up) We all know he studied MJ and what we have is a lessor version of MJ ... but that is STILL greater than Timmy. No shame in Tim being the third greatest player of this era (post MJ) or Shaq being fourth...besides Lebron may end up passing all of them. Shit happens.
How did you come up with Kobe > Duncan as a fact?

Duncan has two regular season MVPs, 3 finals MVPs. Kobe as 1 regular season MVP and 2 finals MVP. Both played in the same era, with Kobe having a longer prime.

Duncan led a rebuilding team to a championship in 2003 and two WCSF loses (spectacular ones at that) in his prime. Kobe led a rebuilding team to miss the playoffs and two 1st round exit in his absolute prime.

[ambchang]

You missed the whole point. No I dont think Dirk is better than Duncan, who does? No I dont think Malone is better than Duncan, not many do but there are some who can make a credible case using the same flawed statistics used in the Kobe vs. Duncan debate. My point is and has ALWAYS been (not just when it is convienent) is that when you are looking at the best of the best. (Malone, Duncan, MJ, Shaq Hakeem Kobe etc.). The EYE test and and RINGS are what matter most TO ME. Sure, it's a "team sport" ... but team sports are competitions and competition is about winning so it matters. How could it not? All of those guys are amazing players. All of them have great stats and accolades. So how can you seperate them? Winning the ultimate prize. That is why Duncan is greater than Malone, Kobe is greater than duncan and Mj greater than both.

I can find stats that favor Kobe. I can find some that favor Tim or Malone or Shaq. But my EYES tell me that MJ is greater than all of them. My Eyes also tell me Kobe is a distant second. the rings reflect that as well. I never saw Kareem in his prime so I can not accurately place him. There are plenty of smart basketball people that favor Duncan over Kobe. There are plenty more that favor Kobe.

I just scoff at those that use stats as their end all be all because that is not gonna end any debate just like ring counts alone wont win that debate. You have to factor:

1. Rings (not as a role player)
2. Traditional Stats
3. Advanced stats
4. The "eye" test (very subjective but important)
5. Individual accolades

Using only one or two of these is dreadfully incomplete ...

And I am here to argue that rings is about as reliable as win shares and other teammates reliant stats. I have no idea why you would be so fixated on something that you yourself indicated is flawed.

As for eye test, sounds crazy, but it probably is the best indicator. Basketball is a team sport, and people are trying to rank individual players with many other variables removed. How a player performed under a specific circumstance is important, but people look at things like rings, stats, and such to draw conclusions without considering all the other variables.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Phoenix would have waxed a 2006-2007 TD lead team just like he did Kobe.
:lol Phoenix lost to a 2006-2007 TD lead team...

[LkrFan]

:lol Phoenix lost to a 2006-2007 TD lead team...

With a stronger supporting cast. Look at the OP then tell me I'm wrong.

[BigTex342006]

From the article:

The case for Karl Malone as the best power forward of all time:

When you look at Karl Malone’s stats compared to Tim Duncan it is hard to make the case that Duncan is a better player that Malone. Why? Because it is hard to make the case that many players are better than Karl Malone by looking at the stats. He is 2nd all time in career points and 3rd all time in win shares (an estimate of the number of wins contributed by a player) with more win shares than everyone but Kareem and Wilt. Tim Duncan would need 6 more years of his average production to equal Malone. As it currently stands he is still isn’t within shouting distance of the Mailman. However, any Duncan supporter might bring up the fact that of course Malone’s career numbers would be better because he played 19 seasons. If we take that away and just compare averages here are some points in favor of Malone:

•Scoring: Malone averaged 25 points per game. Duncan 21.1.
•Efficiency: Malone shot 51.6% from the floor and 74.2% from the line. Duncan’s respective numbers; 50.8% and 68.7%.
•Reliability: Malone’s work ethic and incredible conditioning was legendary and that shows in the numbers. He played in 99.3% of the Jazz possible games during his 18 year career in Utah . Duncan so far with San Antonio has only played in 94.5% of the possible games. Over an 82 game NBA season that means that Malone would play in about 4 more games than Duncan.
•Longevity: The same conditioning led him to be able to play for so long at such a high level. Not to say that Duncan can’t do that, but let’s see if he is still playing as effectively as Malone was when he was 39 and still contributed 11.1 wins (10th in the league) to the 2002-2003 Jazz team.
•Front line help – Sure this is a little subjective, but I think that playing with the Greg Ostertags and Felton Spencers of the world didn’t help Malone quite as much as playing along side David Robinson helped Duncan.


Nothing in that article refutes my claims. Nowhere does it say that Malone had a higher win-share percentage. "If we take that away..." then he goes on and lists his amazing regular season numbers. That is exactly my point. Malone was one of the greatest regular season player of all-time. However, he consistently came up short in the post season. Some use the Jordan excuse... He faced Jordan in the playoffs 2 times out of 19. Couldn't will his team out of the first round NINE times. Why do you play the regular season? For the playoffs.

His point that Malone played in a greater percentage of his team's games is a non-point or helps the "regular season" argument. Pop plays his whole team like none other....and has been overly careful with Duncan's treads.

I'll give you the first Robinson as a legitimate contributor to the 99 championship (although he was nothing like the Robinson before the back injury). But by 2003, Robinson was playing like 20 minutes a game, merely a shell. Look at the rosters of the Spurs compared to other champions since he joined the league... nary a superstar or top ten player. Hell only this last year did anybody put Parker in the top 5 for point guards...and Manu? A dynamic, underrated, and yet inconsistent (mostly because of injuries) player who has averaged 16 pts a game in the playoffs on mediocre shooting. Duncan's teams have been far from star studded and resemble more of a motley crue if anything.

The author printed stats. Here are more telling stats (playoffs):

Duncan - 190 gms 22.3 pts 12.1 rbs 3.4 asts 2.5 blks .502 fg% 25.3 PER

Malone - 193 gms 24.7 pts 10.7 rbs 3.2 asts .7 blks .463 fg% 21.1 PER

I will give Malone longevity and in no way do I believe that thinking Duncan better than Malone makes Karl substandard. But when you are talking about the best of the best, playoff performance and rings are fair game.

(personally I am not one of those stuck on PF vs C debate. The beauty of Duncan is that he is a "big" and can play both positions. In fact, more and more the positions are being morphed as more centers shoot with range, and many PF's post game is center-like).

JMO

[LkrFan]

Nope, although Tim would've made them look a lot better by actually getting them involved. However, while Timmy never had a supporting cast as bad as the 2007 Lakers, there are at least 3 Laker teams Kobe has been apart of that have had superior talent to anything around Tim at any point in his career
Like I said, props son. timvp should give you a medal for posting some real shit. Minus your li'l Laker dig of course. :tu