View Full Version : Spurs Salaries, 2012-2013 Edition
Bruno
08-25-2012, 04:09 PM
Whenever a team sign a player or do a trade, there aren't only basketball considerations but also financial considerations. Here is a look at Spurs' financial status:
Spurs 12-13 salaries :
Players with a guaranteed contract :
Spurs have 15 players with a fully guaranteed salary:
Manu Ginobili: $14,107,492
Tony Parker: $12,500,000
Tim Duncan: $9,638,554
Boris Diaw: $4,500,000
Tiago Splitter: $3,944,000
Matt Bonner: $3,630,000
Danny Green: $3,500,000
Kawhi Leonard: $1,809,840
Nando De Colo: $1,400,000
Patrick Mills: $1,085,120
Cory Joseph: $1,074,420
Dejuan Blair: $1,054,000
Gary Neal: $854,389
Aron Baynes: $239,588 (count for $432,220 against the tax)
Tracy McGrady: $10,052
Stephen Jackson*: $10,059,750
James Anderson*: $160,826
The total salary for these 15 players is $69,568,031 ($69,760,663 against the tax)
The Luxury Tax:
What is the luxury tax?
The luxury tax is a mechanism whose first goal is to reduce the differences between the richest and the poorest franchises by penalizing teams that overspend the others teams. This mechanism will be stronger after the 2012-2013 season when the new progressive luxury tax will apply. In 2013-2014, a repeater tax will be added to even more penalized teams that are consistently over the tax.
The triple penalty system:
A team above the tax is three time penalized. First, they had to pay the $ for $ tax. Second, they don't get a share of the luxury tax money given by the NBA to teams. Third, it makes it more likely to have to pay the repeater tax in the future.
The last two effects push teams that are just above the tax threshold to go under it.
Luxury tax threshold in 12-13:
The 2012-2013 luxury tax threshold is $70.307M.
Total luxury tax paid in 12-13:
6 teams should paid some luxury tax for a total amount of $71M. These teams are: Lakers($30M), Heat($13M), Nets($13M), Knicks($10M), Bulls($3M) and Celtics($2M).
Teams below the tax will get 1/48th of this, that is to say $1.48M.
Impact of the luxury tax on Spurs for 12-13:
Pop said won't pay the tax. The tax threshold will be basically a hard cap for Spurs this year.
Spurs are $546,337 below the tax.
Spurs 13-14 salaries :
Players with a guaranteed contract :
Tony Parker: $12,500,000
Tim Duncan: $10,361,446
Boris Diaw: $4,702,500
Danny Green: $3,762,500
Nando De Colo: $1,463,000
Kawhi Leonard: $1,887,840
Patrick Mills: $1,133,950
Cory Joseph: $1,120,920
Aron Baynes: $788,872
The total salary of these 9 players is $37,721,028
Players with a partially guaranteed contract:
Matt Bonner: $3,945,000
His contract is $1M guaranteed and becomes fully guaranteed on June 29th 2013.
Total salaries:
These 10 players have a combined salary of $41,666,028
The 2013 summer and Spurs' cap space situation:
Spurs might be way under the cap next summer and have a lot of money to go after free agents. While it's obviously very early to talk about it, some points can still be made.
The amnesty rule:
On the paper, two players can still be amnestied by Spurs: Bonner and Parker.
However, the situation is complicated for Bonner. His 2013-2014 contract becomes fully guaranteed next July before the window to use the amnesty on him.
If Spurs want to get ride of Bonner next summer, they have two ways of doing it:
- Waiving him in June. It will cost them only $1M but Bonner cap hit for 2013-2014 will be $1M.
- Using the amnesty on him in July. It will cost them up to $3.95M but Bonner cap hit will be $0.
I doubt Spurs will be using the second option because it is way more costly. Bonner might agreed to push back the deadline to waive him by a couple of weeks to allow Spurs to sue the amnesty on him without having to pay his full salary. He might do it as a nice gesture or more likely against a raise of the guaranteed part of his contract or a quicker payment schedule of his buyout.
The stretch provision:
For players signed under the current CBA (Duncan, Diaw, Green, Leonard, De Colo, Mills and Joseph), their salary can be spread over twice the remaining years in their contract plus one. It reduces the cap hit.
For example, Spurs can waive Diaw and spread the last year of his contract over 3 years with a $1,567,500 cap hit each year.
Cap hold:
The cap hold is the amount that free agent count toward team salary.
For Ginobili, there are no tricks to use since their cap hold will be higher than their new salary if Spurs re-sign them.
For Blair and Neal, it's different. They have a low cap hold and Spurs might use it to go over the cap by re-signing them last. Blair cap hold is $2M and Neal cap hold is $1.1M.
Splitter is in an in-between situation. Splitter might very well be paid more than his $7.5M cap hold.
Spurs first round pick:
With Livio Jean-Charles, Spurs have a player who will be stashed overseas and will count for $0 against the cap.
The room exception:
It's a new exception for teams below the cap. Its value next summer will be $2.652M with a max length of 2 years.
Salary cap for 2013-2014:
The NBA early projections for the salary cap is $58.5M.
How much cap space Spurs could had in the 2013 summer:
It's early to answer at that question but let's give it a try.
Let's make first some assumptions:
- The salary cap is $58.5M.
- Spurs use the amnesty rule on Bonner.
Spurs team salary in the 2013 summer:
Tony Parker: $12,500,000
Tim Duncan: $10,361,446
Boris Diaw: $4,702,500
Danny Green: $3,762,500
Nando De Colo: $1,463,000
Kawhi Leonard: $1,887,840
Patrick Mills: $1,133,950
Cory Joseph: $1,120,920
Aron Baynes: $788,872
Roster cap hold: $490,180
Roster cap hold: $490,180
Roster cap hold: $490,180
Total: $39,191,568
In this scenario and with a $58.5M salary cap, Spurs will have $19.3M in cap space next summer.
Spurs 14-15 salaries :
- Tony Parker has a $12,500,000 salary than is $3.5M guaranteed. The contract becomes fully guaranteed on June 30th 2014.
- Tim Duncan has a $10M contract with a player option. However, his salary might be increase to $10,361,446 because his current contract doesn't respect the CBA.
- Danny green has a $4,025,000 salary.
- Kawhi Leonard has a $2,894,059 salary that is a team option. Spurs must pick it before November 1st 2013.
- Cory Joseph has a $2,023,261 salary that is a team option. Spurs must pick it before November 1st 2013.
PS: Go to ShamSports (data.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/spurs.jsp) for a salary tab and more details about contracts' specifics. Thanks to Sham for his great work.
mountainballer
08-26-2012, 03:03 AM
great piece of work. thx!
question: Spurs are 1.15 million below the threshold. if they sign a veteran to the minimum (let's say K-Mart), that's 1.35 million and would push them into tax territory. or does this signing only count for the 762 K of a 2nd year player and Spurs would stay under the tax line? (if I remember right, the old CBA had this rule)
Bruno
08-26-2012, 04:05 AM
question: Spurs are 1.15 million below the threshold. if they sign a veteran to the minimum (let's say K-Mart), that's 1.35 million and would push them into tax territory. or does this signing only count for the 762 K of a 2nd year player and Spurs would stay under the tax line? (if I remember right, the old CBA had this rule)
It depends on the length of K-Mart contract.
If it's an one year contract, then Spurs will only pay him as a 2 years vet that it to say $854,389. The league will pay the rest and only the part paid by Spurs will count against the tax. Spurs will stay below the tax.
If it's a two years contract, even if the second year is a team or player option, then Spurs will have to pay his full salary. The full salary will count against the tax and Spurs will be above the threshold. They will then need to do a move like trading or waiving Blair to go back under it.
spurs10
08-27-2012, 12:44 AM
Thanks Bruno! Great information!
Bruno
10-26-2012, 11:36 PM
I've updated the first post with Leonard and Joseph options picked up. There is too now a projection of Spurs cap space for next summer.
To sum it up, Spurs should have between $22M and $28M in cap space next summer.
elemento
10-27-2012, 06:25 PM
Nice as always Bruno
I always learn something new from your salary threads.
The best part of this year's thread is not having to see Richard Jefferson eating almost 10m of cap space. :lol
Richie
11-02-2012, 02:35 PM
Assuming SJax is still here, his and Manu's cap holds will remove our entire cap space until they are sorted out will they not?
For example, could we waive Jackson (thus removing his cap hold), sign a big free agent then resign him with the MLE?
Mel_13
11-02-2012, 03:06 PM
Assuming SJax is still here, his and Manu's cap holds will remove our entire cap space until they are sorted out will they not?
For example, could we waive Jackson (thus removing his cap hold), sign a big free agent then resign him with the MLE?
I wouldn't worry too much about the cap holds. The Spurs will have to make decisions on Manu, Jax, Splitter, and Diaw if he opts out. If they retain all four players, there isn't likely to be any cap space.
As to the second part of your post, the Spurs would not have to waive Jackson as he would already be a free agent. If they were to renounce his rights to sign a big free agent with cap space, then they would no longer have the full MLE to use. In that case, they would have have a smaller exception, the "room MLE" at their disposal.
Richie
11-02-2012, 03:17 PM
I wouldn't worry too much about the cap holds. The Spurs will have to make decisions on Manu, Jax, Splitter, and Diaw if he opts out. If they retain all four players, there isn't likely to be any cap space.
As to the second part of your post, the Spurs would not have to waive Jackson as he would already be a free agent. If they were to renounce his rights to sign a big free agent with cap space, then they would no longer have the full MLE to use. In that case, they would have have a smaller exception, the "room MLE" at their disposal.
Thanks, that makes sense.
Richie
11-02-2012, 05:13 PM
So lets say we have $22m cap space with Manu, Jackson, Splitter, Neal and Blair all free agents. Which do we keep and for how much?
Could we possibly get Manu and Jackson for around $9m or less? $5m Manu, $4m Jax? Would leave us with $13m for a free agent big man like Milisap, Jefferson or Josh Smith, although I expect Smith to command more.
Chinook
11-13-2012, 06:45 PM
@Bruno , I have a Bonner question: Say the Spurs get Bonner to agree to push back his deadline until after the amnesty date so that they can release him without accruing a cap hit. For argument's sake, we'll just assume Bonner does this out of the kindness of his heart and that only $1 Million is guaranteed as planned. Bonner would then go onto the amnesty waivers and possibly (though improbably) receive bids. If someone bids on him, does that mean his salary gets taken out of the money that they Spurs own him, and thus that they'd only own like $146,000, or is it taken out of the non-guaranteed portion first? If he were to receive bids of more than $1 Million, what would be the amount the Spurs would have to pay?
Chinook
11-13-2012, 06:46 PM
Well, I clearly am not familiar with that @ technique yet...
Bruno
11-14-2012, 02:40 AM
I have a Bonner question: Say the Spurs get Bonner to agree to push back his deadline until after the amnesty date so that they can release him without accruing a cap hit. For argument's sake, we'll just assume Bonner does this out of the kindness of his heart and that only $1 Million is guaranteed as planned. Bonner would then go onto the amnesty waivers and possibly (though improbably) receive bids. If someone bids on him, does that mean his salary gets taken out of the money that they Spurs own him, and thus that they'd only own like $146,000, or is it taken out of the non-guaranteed portion first? If he were to receive bids of more than $1 Million, what would be the amount the Spurs would have to pay?
A rule of the amnesty waiver is that the minimum bid can't be lower than the non-guaranteed part of a partially guaranteed contract.
With your scenario, the minimum bid for Bonner would $2,945,00.
Spurs will have to pay Bonner the difference between his full salary and the waiver claim. For example, if a team claim Bonner for $3.2M, Spurs will have to pay Bonner $745K.
DPG21920
12-18-2012, 05:47 PM
Even if Tiago has some inconsistent moments, as long as he stays realtively healthy and produces like he has been Spurs are going to be in a tough spot. Tiago is in a good spot to receive a solid contract it would seem, so the question will be how much? Do the Spurs want to lock him up early? Or would they be willing to match a good offer? Depending on who's available in FA that makes the question tougher.
The other tough variable is how well Manu holds up and how the Spurs do in the playoffs. They will likely have the cap space to keep most everyone of their own FA's, but will they continue to stay the course? Will Manu retire or ask for a lot of money?
Chinook
12-18-2012, 06:25 PM
Even if Tiago has some inconsistent moments, as long as he stays realtively healthy and produces like he has been Spurs are going to be in a tough spot. Tiago is in a good spot to receive a solid contract it would seem, so the question will be how much? Do the Spurs want to lock him up early? Or would they be willing to match a good offer? Depending on who's available in FA that makes the question tougher.
The other tough variable is how well Manu holds up and how the Spurs do in the playoffs. They will likely have the cap space to keep most everyone of their own FA's, but will they continue to stay the course? Will Manu retire or ask for a lot of money?
If Manu comes back, I think he, Splitter and Jack are pretty much going to take up all of the Spurs' cap room in the offseason. The three of them will probably cost about $20 Million. If Manu retires, I could see the Spurs not resigning Jackson immediately and looking for ways to use their cap room with Splitter as a possible sign-and-trade candidate. The way Splitter's playing he's worth at least Asik's contract right now.
I don't think Manu is in too much of a position to ask for a lot of money. The Spurs gave him his max contract already, and it's hard to argue that he's been worth it this year. He's a part of the Big 3 and an attraction to the Hispanic community, but he's not Duncan. He doesn't have the sway to hold them for than $8 Million or so. He's also said before that he's not looking for another big payday.
Mel_13
12-18-2012, 06:25 PM
Even if Tiago has some inconsistent moments, as long as he stays realtively healthy and produces like he has been Spurs are going to be in a tough spot. Tiago is in a good spot to receive a solid contract it would seem, so the question will be how much? Do the Spurs want to lock him up early? Or would they be willing to match a good offer? Depending on who's available in FA that makes the question tougher.
The other tough variable is how well Manu holds up and how the Spurs do in the playoffs. They will likely have the cap space to keep most everyone of their own FA's, but will they continue to stay the course? Will Manu retire or ask for a lot of money?
If you mean an extension, that is not possible.
They'll tender the qualifying offer to make him a restricted free agent and they'll keep him as long as the numbers don't get too stupid.
As to Manu, Duncan set the standard for a final contract. His salary this year is about 45% of his previous salary.
DPG21920
12-18-2012, 06:44 PM
If you mean an extension, that is not possible.
They'll tender the qualifying offer to make him a restricted free agent and they'll keep him as long as the numbers don't get too stupid.
.
That's right - but they can offer him an actual "contract", correct? So they can't "extend", but they can offer the QO, make him a RFA but then sign a new contract immediately, right?
Mel_13
12-18-2012, 06:50 PM
That's right - but they can offer him an actual "contract", correct? So they can't "extend", but they can offer the QO, make him a RFA but then sign a new contract immediately, right?
They can work out all the details at any point that the two sides are able to agree. He can't sign a new contract until after the July moratorium, with July 10, 2013 being the earliest possible date.
Strategic
12-21-2012, 08:39 AM
Great thread Bruno. It provides info that I like to think on. Now if I could only get my laptop to fit on the back of that bathroom thing that I nap on? Thanks!
Richie
01-11-2013, 11:14 PM
Baynes apparently a team option of $2m next year. He had better be worth it, as $2m might be the difference between getting a legit big man in free agency or not.
Chinook
01-12-2013, 01:25 AM
^ He can't actually have an option for that much. There's a lot of misinformation going around right now, but as it stands, he can only get a 4.5-percent increase of whatever he gets this year (or the minimum next year, if that's greater). The max he can get is 500k this year, so he can get no more than 522.5k next season. He's not getting $2 Million in any two years combined, let alone in one year.
Seventyniner
01-12-2013, 02:56 PM
^ He can't actually have an option for that much. There's a lot of misinformation going around right now, but as it stands, he can only get a 4.5-percent increase of whatever he gets this year (or the minimum next year, if that's greater). The max he can get is 500k this year, so he can get no more than 522.5k next season. He's not getting $2 Million in any two years combined, let alone in one year.
Is it then a 4-year, $2M contract? Including the non-guaranteed years that is.
Chinook
01-12-2013, 03:14 PM
Is it then a 4-year, $2M contract? Including the non-guaranteed years that is.
If it was just a four-year deal (and there's some debate about that right now), with 4.5-percent raises and no minimum, it would be a $2.09 Million deal. But his contract will get bumped up to the minimum for the final three years, which will raise the value to 3.2 Million. He'll get $788,872 in year two, then his option years are $915,243 and $981,084.
Here's a table to minimum salaries: http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q16
It doesn't affect Baynes this year, because 500k is more than the pro-rated part of the minimum contract.
Strategic
01-12-2013, 03:17 PM
If it was just a four-year deal (and there's some debate about that right now), with 4.5-percent raises and no minimum, it would be a $2.09 Million deal. But his contract will get bumped up to the minimum for the final three years, which will raise the value to 3.2 Million. He'll get $788,872 in year two, then his option years are $915,243 and $981,084.
Here's a table to minimum salaries: http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q16
It doesn't affect Baynes this year, because 500k is more than the pro-rated part of the minimum contract.
Does the 400K buyout count against the salary cap for this year?
Bruno
01-12-2013, 03:51 PM
Does the 400K buyout count against the salary cap for this year?
It doesn't . Teams are allowed to give up $550K to bought out an international player with salary cap situation.
A couple of points regarding Baynes contract:
- Whatever exception Spurs use on Baynes, it will have roughly the same impact on Spurs luxury tax situation this season. A player (outside of second round picks) can't count for less than a 2 years vet minimum salary player against the tax. If Spurs signed Baynes today (Jan 12), the prorated 2 years vet min salary would be $482K. Spurs have $491K left on their MLE and $547K on their LLE.
- Baynes will have little impact on Spurs next season cap space even if his contract is guaranteed for that season. He will have a $789K salary but Spurs team salary will be reduce by a roster charge of $490K. Baynes will eat, in the worst case, $299K of Spurs cap space.
Chinook
01-12-2013, 04:18 PM
It doesn't . Teams are allowed to give up $550K to bought out an international player with salary cap situation.
This is more on an incidental question, but do you know if a team can use exceptions to pay more than the 550k buyout, or do they need cap room? If a team needs a million-dollar buyout, but the NBA team is over the cap, can they use part of the MLE to pay the rest of the buyout and then the remaining portion on the player's contract?
Bruno
01-12-2013, 04:30 PM
This is more on an incidental question, but do you know if a team can use exceptions to pay more than the 550k buyout, or do they need cap room?
Exceptions can be used to pay buyout in excess of $550K. If you want more details, you can read the item on that in Larry Coon's FAQ: http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q74
Libri
04-14-2013, 03:55 PM
So what's the Spurs financial situation now that Pop has kicked Jax to the curb.
Bruno
04-14-2013, 04:55 PM
So what's the Spurs financial situation now that Pop has kicked Jax to the curb.
It's basically the same. Jackson contract was fully guaranteed so waiving him don't save money.
Spurs have a roster spot and there are no issues with signing another player regarding the luxury tax. Spurs are $556K below the tax. If they sign tomorrow (Monday) a player to a min contract, it will count for $15K against the tax. As you can see, there are a lot of margin.
Libri
04-14-2013, 05:12 PM
It's basically the same. Jackson contract was fully guaranteed so waiving him don't save money.
Spurs have a roster spot and there are no issues with signing another player regarding the luxury tax. Spurs are $556K below the tax. If they sign tomorrow (Monday) a player to a min contract, it will count for $15K against the tax. As you can see, there are a lot of margin.
Thanks. :tu
spurraider21
05-09-2013, 12:58 AM
I heard the NBA had revenue higher than they anticipated and the cap next year could jump a substantial amount, and i'm talking over 65 million. if so, it would make the Spurs legitimate players in free agency, particularly if they can handle the Manu situation quickly. i'll search for a link to confirm this, as i heard it on the radio
Manu still look hungry for championship. I do believe he could take less money, in case of adding another important players and have another shot(s) on championship.
Bruno
05-16-2013, 12:51 AM
A little analysis on how the level of this year BRI will impact the salary cap.
While making the CBA, the NBA makes BRI forecasts that put the 2012-2013 BRI at $4,308M. If this forecast is accurate, the salary cap will be at $60.2M.
To adjust that number, if the BRI increase/decrease by $100M, the cap will increase/decrease by $1.5M.
In addition to that, there is another rule that can change the cap:
http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q13
If the league didn't pay the players enough the previous season, i.e., if they had to cut the players a supplemental check to make their guarantee, then the shortfall, divided by the number of teams in the league, is added to the cap. For example, if the players are paid $15 million less in 2012-13 than they are guaranteed, then the 2013-14 cap is adjusted upward by $500,000.
Players will receive a check this year if the 2012-2013 BRI is above $4,575M.
This other rule with increase the cap by $2M per $100M between $4,575M and $4,761M and by $1.7M per $100M above $4,761M.
Some examples of BRI and their resulting salary cap:
$4,208M -> $58.7M
$4,308M -> $60.2M
$4,408M -> $61.7M
$4,508M -> $63.2M
$4,575M -> $64.2M
$4,675M -> $67.7M
$4,775M -> $70.1M
As you can see, once the $4,575M level is reached for the BRI, the cap will increase quickly. I don't know if the BRI reaching that level is realistic but if it does, it will boost the salary cap.
A little analysis on how the level of this year BRI will impact the salary cap.
Thanks Bruno. What is your opinion on how the salary cap level will affect the Spurs in free agency?
Bruno
05-16-2013, 03:25 PM
Thanks Bruno. What is your opinion on how the salary cap level will affect the Spurs in free agency?
A relatively low salary cap ($58M-$60M) could push Spurs not to try to go under it and improve their team through trades and the MLE especially if they want to keep both Splitter and Ginobili. In that scenario, Bonner partially guaranteed would be a nice trade asset. A low cap also means a low luxury tax threshold and teams should seek to reduce their payroll which makes Bonner's contract even more attractive.
A high cap ($62M or more) would push Spurs to go after top free agents with cap space. However, a negative effect would be that the highest the cap the more money Splitter will receive. Spurs might not be willing to keep him especially if he doesn't get better in these playoffs.
Regardless, it would be nice for Spurs to have a relatively good idea of the cap level around mid June because some of these moves (like a Bonner trade) could/should be done during the draft.
Bruno
05-16-2013, 03:28 PM
Tickets revenue have been great this year which should help the cap:
http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2013/04/29/Leagues-and-Governing-Bodies/NBA-revenue.aspx
NBA franchises posted record revenue at the turnstiles this year, as teams reported more per-game gate revenue for the 2012-13 season than in any prior campaign, according to league officials.
The NBA declined to disclose the specific amounts, but it did report closing out its regular season this year with a 6 percent increase in average per-game gate revenue, surpassing the record that came from the NBA’s lockout-condensed season last year.
TV ratings have declined but, AFAIK, it won't impact the cap.
Thanks :toast
Regardless, it would be nice for Spurs to have a relatively good idea of the cap level around mid June because some of these moves (like a Bonner trade) could/should be done during the draft.
When does the league normally release its financial information and set the salary cap?
I heard the NBA had revenue higher than they anticipated and the cap next year could jump a substantial amount, and i'm talking over 65 million. if so, it would make the Spurs legitimate players in free agency, particularly if they can handle the Manu situation quickly. i'll search for a link to confirm this, as i heard it on the radio
Will benefit the Spurs, but don't be surprised if this causes inflation across the board and the Phoenixes and Portlands of the world bid up players well beyond their worth. But if we do have to overpay a bit to add a final piece, might need to bite the bullet and do it given the tight window.
Bruno
05-16-2013, 07:43 PM
When does the league normally release its financial information and set the salary cap?
At the end of the July moratorium (July 9th/10th this year).
bluebellmaniac
05-16-2013, 08:15 PM
At the end of the July moratorium (July 9th/10th this year).
So it coincides with being able to sign FAs. Makes sense.
At the end of the July moratorium (July 9th/10th this year).
:tu
Bruno
06-02-2013, 09:31 PM
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If the cap is that low, it pretty much makes Spurs going after a significant free agent and keep both Tiago and Manu impossible.
Chinook
06-02-2013, 09:50 PM
Exceptions and trades it is. I don't think any team has the money to sign two max players without making deals now.
Oh well. It seems like we'd kind of decided free agency wasn't going to be great for the Spurs anyway.
TD 21
06-02-2013, 10:49 PM
You guys are overreacting to this news.
If they cut Bonner or trade him to a team with cap space for no salary in return, pay Splitter and Ginobili something like $15M combined, have Casspi take Neal's spot for the minimum and their 1st is on the roster and not a draft and stash, they could still have $9+M to play with and if the 1st is a draft and stash, then that number would be $10+M.
Chinook
06-02-2013, 10:57 PM
You guys are overreacting to this news.
If they cut Bonner or trade him to a team with cap space for no salary in return, pay Splitter and Ginobili something like $15M combined, have Casspi take Neal's spot for the minimum and their 1st is on the roster and not a draft and stash, they could still have $9+M to play with and if the 1st is a draft and stash, then that number would be $10+M.
Under your scenario, the Spurs would have less than $4 Million, so with the MLE, they'd be over the cap. I don't know where your $10 Million number came from.
You guys are overreacting to this news.
If they cut Bonner or trade him to a team with cap space for no salary in return, pay Splitter and Ginobili something like $15M combined, have Casspi take Neal's spot for the minimum and their 1st is on the roster and not a draft and stash, they could still have $9+M to play with and if the 1st is a draft and stash, then that number would be $10+M.
I'm definitely not an expert at the cap thing, but I think your numbers are off. If the Spurs amnesty Bonner, then I think their salaries are still around $38 million next year. That would be around $20 million under the cap. Splitter's cap hold is $7.5 million. If they resigned Ginobili for $7.5 million, there's your $15 million, but that only leaves $5 million left by my count. And that's before paying any picks, etc. The Spurs would probably end up using their exceptions, not cap room (I think).
Chinook
06-02-2013, 11:04 PM
I actually like this. The Spurs still have Bonner's deal, and that's even more valuable now. The cap would've had to increase by a lot to give the Spurs room to sign a significant player, anyway, so it hurt other teams a lot more. Teams like Atlanta need to find takers for Lou Williams' deal now, or they at least can't keep both their firsts. Also, the tax is going to stay about the same, so teams over it are going to be in an even stronger salary-cutting mode than they thought. This should drive down the free-agent market, actually increasing the number of S&Ts and more pertinently, the number of players who sign for the MLE. Players like Millsap who thought they were going to get a big payday will end up going for cheap short-term deals like Carl Landry did last off-season.
Chinook
06-02-2013, 11:06 PM
I'm definitely not an expert at the cap thing, but I think your numbers are off. If the Spurs amnesty Bonner, then I think their salaries are still around $38 million next year. That would be around $20 million under the cap. Splitter's cap hold is $7.5 million. If they resigned Ginobili for $7.5 million, there's your $15 million, but that only leaves $5 million left by my count. And that's before paying any picks, etc. The Spurs would probably end up using their exceptions, not cap room (I think).
Don't forget roster charges.
I actually like this. The Spurs still have Bonner's deal, and that's even more valuable now. The cap would've had to increase by a lot to give the Spurs room to sign a significant player, anyway, so it hurt other teams a lot more. Teams like Atlanta need to find takers for Lou Williams' deal now, or they at least can't keep both their firsts. Also, the tax is going to stay about the same, so teams over it are going to be in an even stronger salary-cutting mode than they thought. This should drive down the free-agent market, actually increasing the number of S&Ts and more pertinently, the number of players who sign for the MLE. Players like Millsap who thought they were going to get a big payday will end up going for cheap short-term deals like Carl Landry did last off-season.
:tu I like it. Can the Spurs bid on players that are amnestied using cap space and still use their exceptions?
Don't forget roster charges.
That's what my "etc." was for :) I couldn't remember what it was called. I was going to say "roster cost," but I knew that was wrong.
Chinook
06-02-2013, 11:12 PM
:tu I like it. Can the Spurs bid on players that are amnestied using cap space and still use their exceptions?
Unfortunately, no. The Spurs don't technically have cap space unless they are under the cap by a greater amount than their combined salaries, cap holds and available exceptions. So even though their salaries are under the cap, they won't be able to bid.
For normal waivers, a team is allowed to use trade exceptions to claim players in lieu of cap space. I don't know if that's true for amnestied players, though, not that it matters. I think the Spurs can forgo their exceptions to gain more cap space, but that seems like a poor move when you aren't guaranteed to get the player.
However, this also means that there are fewer teams that can bid on players, so that may help the Spurs sign some with their MLE. Though teams who can no longer afford two superstars may decide to bid on players like Gasol in addition to getting one star.
Unfortunately, no. The Spurs don't technically have cap space unless they are under the cap by a greater amount than their combined salaries, cap holds and available exceptions. So even though their salaries are under the cap, they won't be able to bid.
For normal waivers, a team is allowed to use trade exceptions to claim players in lieu of cap space. I don't know if that's true for amnestied players, though, not that it matters. I think the Spurs can forgo their exceptions to gain more cap space, but that seems like a poor move when you aren't guaranteed to get the player.
However, this also means that there are fewer teams that can bid on players, so that may help the Spurs sign some with their MLE. Though teams who can no longer afford two superstars may decide to bid on players like Gasol in addition to getting one star.
Too bad. Thanks for the reply.
Chinook
06-02-2013, 11:27 PM
This also affects the Splitter situation. Teams are going to go after him more now than before, because some can't afford to get Howard (Dallas) or Howard and another player (Atlanta) like they thought they were going to be able to. So the Spurs will probably need to lock him up before free agency really gets going. However, now that the Spurs are going to be over the cap no matter what, they don't have to worry about using Splitter's hold to get cap space. Also, even if a team offers Splitter the max, the lack of any real cap increase means the max salary isn't going to rise much. (My estimate is $13.787 Million for players with Splitter's experience.) So the Spurs can match a max offer and stay comfortably under the tax, even after using the MLE and re-signing everyone.
Richie
06-03-2013, 12:17 AM
Can still sign a big player if Manu takes the room exception. Barring that, it looks like a slow free agency summer
This also affects the Splitter situation. Teams are going to go after him more now than before, because some can't afford to get Howard (Dallas) or Howard and another player (Atlanta) like they thought they were going to be able to. So the Spurs will probably need to lock him up before free agency really gets going. However, now that the Spurs are going to be over the cap no matter what, they don't have to worry about using Splitter's hold to get cap space. Also, even if a team offers Splitter the max, the lack of any real cap increase means the max salary isn't going to rise much. (My estimate is $13.787 Million for players with Splitter's experience.) So the Spurs can match a max offer and stay comfortably under the tax, even after using the MLE and re-signing everyone.
I like Splitter, but I can't imagine the Spurs paying him max money or anything close to it. He's good, but his skill set is somewhat limited. If he gets an offer they're uncomfortable matching, maybe the Spurs would offer lower starting money, but a fifth guaranteed year?
Bruno
06-03-2013, 11:13 AM
A quick look at what Spurs potential cap space could be with a $58.5M cap:
Tony Parker: $12,500,000
Tim Duncan: $10,361,446
Boris Diaw: $4,702,500
Danny Green: $3,762,500
Nando De Colo: $1,463,000
Kawhi Leonard: $1,887,840
Patrick Mills: $1,133,950
Cory Joseph: $1,120,920
Aron Baynes: $788,872
Tiago Splitter cap hold: $7,493,600
Manu Ginobili 2013-2014 salary: X
pick #28 (100%): $893,500
Total: $46,108,128 + Manu's new salary
So Spurs cap space will be $12.4M minus Manu's new salary. If he got $6M, Spurs will have $6.4M to sign a free agent.
Some notes:
- In that scenario, Bonner is waived trough the amnesty provision. If he is just cut, it will take away $1M in cap space. If Spurs keep him with his $4M salary, it's safe to say they will take the MLE road for sure.
- I'm using the 100% figure for the draft pick but it could be 120% which will lowered the cap space by $0.2M or it could nothing if the draft pick is stashed which will increase the cap space by $0.4M because of the min roster cap hold. Regardless of what Spurs do with that pick, it won't significantly change their cap space.
- Spurs don't try to keep Neal in that scenario which, to me, seems like an obvious move after his disastrous western conference playoffs.
- Even if Spurs have about the MLE amount in cap space, don't forget they will still have the room exception to have another player while they won't have a LLE if they go with the MLE.
Chinook
06-03-2013, 12:24 PM
Thanks for the secondary breakdown, Bruno . Do you know if teams can declare themselves under the cap if they're in an ambiguous place salary-wise like you described here:
- Even if Spurs have about the MLE amount in cap space, don't forget they will still have the room exception to have another player while they won't have a LLE if they go with the MLE.
Or is it something that happens automatically and only when a team is fully under the cap?
Bruno
06-03-2013, 01:53 PM
Thanks for the secondary breakdown, Bruno . Do you know if teams can declare themselves under the cap if they're in an ambiguous place salary-wise like you described here:
Teams don't declare themselves under the cap. It's just that when they sign a player, they say to the league how they signed him (MLE, LLE, cap space, Bird rights...). The league checked of course if it works CBA wise.
For claimed amnestied players, it's noteworthy that the cap space must be created just after the winning team get the player. For example, if Spurs are $2M below the cap with Bonner still being here, they can make a $6M bid on a player. If they win the amnestied player, they simultaneously amnesty Bonner and get the amnestied player. Off course, it would only work if when Spurs get the amnestied player, they are still in the amnesty window.
And for reminder, Spurs not having the LLE if they use the MLE is because they spend it last season on De Colo.
Even if Spurs have about the MLE amount in cap space, don't forget they will still have the room exception to have another player while they won't have a LLE if they go with the MLE.
I think I understand this, but I'm not positive.
The Spurs could sign Ginobili, Splitter and use the MLE. The order in which they sign players wouldn't matter. After that they would only be able to sign minimum contracts.
Or
The Spurs could 1: sign Ginobili. 2: use their cap space to sign a player or claim a player that is amnestied. 3: sign Splitter and use the room exception. However, it would have to be done in that order. After that they would only be able to sign minimum contracts.
Is that right? The second scenario is assuming the Spurs have cap space (i.e. they amnesty Bonner and don't make any moves that increase salaries).
Chinook
06-03-2013, 04:01 PM
I think I understand this, but I'm not positive.
The Spurs could sign Ginobili, Splitter and use the MLE. The order in which they sign players wouldn't matter. After that they would only be able to sign minimum contracts.
Or
The Spurs could 1: sign Ginobili. 2: use their cap space to sign a player or claim a player that is amnestied. 3: sign Splitter and use the room exception. However, it would have to be done in that order. After that they would only be able to sign minimum contracts.
Is that right? The second scenario is assuming the Spurs have cap space (i.e. they amnesty Bonner and don't make any moves that increase salaries).
Pretty much. Although in the second scenario, the Spurs could always renounce Ginobili's Bird rights and sign him after claiming an amnesty player. That may be the better thing to do, since it allows the Spurs to have the flexibility to adjust Ginobili's deal if they need more money for their bid or have some left over after the bid.
Also, there's still the option of sign-and-trades. If the Spurs move De Colo and/or Mills, they'd have one or two small trade exceptions to use in the first scenario. If they S&T Blair or Neal, they may also have TEs. These would allow the team to sign players for above the minimum if they can agree on some compensation to give to the free agent's former team. (Note: There aren't trade exceptions in the first scenario; the Spurs would just get more cap space.)
Also, thanks Bruno for the room-exception reminder. I had made a stink about that very thing a couple of months ago in the free agency thread, and I can't believe I forgot about that now. Do you know if a team that uses cap space can use trade exceptions after going over the cap and using their room exception?
Bruno
06-03-2013, 04:22 PM
Is that right? The second scenario is assuming the Spurs have cap space (i.e. they amnesty Bonner and don't make any moves that increase salaries).
Yeah, basically. If Spurs take the cap space/room exception road, there will have an order to follow. That's usually not an issue for teams because you can reach an agreement with a player and then wait to officially sign him. For example, Spurs could reach an agreement with Tiago very early in July and then wait the end of the amnesty period before officially sign him.
Do you know if a team that uses cap space can use trade exceptions after going over the cap and using their room exception?
Trade exceptions count against the cap.
Fabbs
06-03-2013, 04:27 PM
Brunski,
Break it down por favor.
If/when Splitter has a monster Finals in a 4-2 Spurs Championship, what do you think other teams will offer Splitter?
I think Splitts has already demonstrated enough that other teams like what he has shown and feel he still has upside in an NBA that lacks big men.
Do you think he will crack 10 mil a year offers? (I know it hinges on his Finals play.)
And the Spurs can match any offer, right?
Bruno
06-03-2013, 05:00 PM
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Chinook
06-03-2013, 06:00 PM
Trade exceptions count against the cap.
Yes, but I mean trade exceptions that are created after the team goes back over the cap. Like if the Spurs go over the cap by a couple of million after using their room exception and then decide to trade Mills for nothing near the deadline. Would the Spurs get the exception? My understanding is that teams aren't allowed to use exceptions (except the room exception) and cap space in the same season. But since the exception is created while the team is over the cap, it wouldn't automatically go away, like it would if Atlanta traded a player this summer. I know it doesn't really matter, but I'm just curious.
TD 21
06-03-2013, 06:13 PM
Under your scenario, the Spurs would have less than $4 Million, so with the MLE, they'd be over the cap. I don't know where your $10 Million number came from.
Where I went wrong was forgetting to take into account Splitter's cap hold; I instead looked at his qualifying offer. There's your gap between my $9-10M and Bruno's $6.4M (I agree with his presumption that Ginobili get's $6M).
Bruno
06-03-2013, 06:21 PM
Yes, but I mean trade exceptions that are created after the team goes back over the cap. Like if the Spurs go over the cap by a couple of million after using their room exception and then decide to trade Mills for nothing near the deadline. Would the Spurs get the exception? My understanding is that teams aren't allowed to use exceptions (except the room exception) and cap space in the same season.
Yes, they would get an exception. If a teams is above the cap and do a trade that generate a trade exception, they get it regardless of what they have done earlier in the season (like using cap space).
Richie
06-03-2013, 07:27 PM
If the cap really is going to be $62.5m next summer, I think the Spurs should bring everyone back and wait until then to give Duncan and Manu one last year.
Give Manu a big contract this year (~$10m) and the veteran minimum the year after. Timmy has a $10m player option next year, he might be willing to opt out and take a smaller salary.
Excluding Timmy we'll have $21m committed to Parker, Kawhi, Green and Joseph + Splitters contract (£7m?). Add in Manu for the minimum and Timmy on a restructured deal ($5m?) and thats enough for at least one max player. I'm not sure if there's any free agents worth a max (assuming we can't get Lebron/Bosh/they doesn't opt out) but it's something to consider
For example, Spurs could reach an agreement with Tiago very early in July and then wait the end of the amnesty period before officially sign him. This is the part of that scenario that makes me nervous. The Spurs could come to an agreement with Splitter, but if they don't actually sign him, other teams might be willing to make bigger offers later in free agency after they strike out with Howard, etc. You'd hope Splitter would stick to a prior agreement, but...
Although in the second scenario, the Spurs could always renounce Ginobili's Bird rights and sign him after claiming an amnesty player. That may be the better thing to do, since it allows the Spurs to have the flexibility to adjust Ginobili's deal if they need more money for their bid or have some left over after the bid.
Thanks Chinook. That hadn't occurred to me.
DPG21920
06-08-2013, 10:51 AM
A quick look at what Spurs potential cap space could be with a $58.5M cap:
Tony Parker: $12,500,000
Tim Duncan: $10,361,446
Boris Diaw: $4,702,500
Danny Green: $3,762,500
Nando De Colo: $1,463,000
Kawhi Leonard: $1,887,840
Patrick Mills: $1,133,950
Cory Joseph: $1,120,920
Aron Baynes: $788,872
Tiago Splitter cap hold: $7,493,600
Manu Ginobili 2013-2014 salary: X
pick #28 (100%): $893,500
Total: $46,108,128 + Manu's new salary
So Spurs cap space will be $12.4M minus Manu's new salary. If he got $6M, Spurs will have $6.4M to sign a free agent.
Some notes:
- In that scenario, Bonner is waived trough the amnesty provision. If he is just cut, it will take away $1M in cap space. If Spurs keep him with his $4M salary, it's safe to say they will take the MLE road for sure.
- I'm using the 100% figure for the draft pick but it could be 120% which will lowered the cap space by $0.2M or it could nothing if the draft pick is stashed which will increase the cap space by $0.4M because of the min roster cap hold. Regardless of what Spurs do with that pick, it won't significantly change their cap space.
- Spurs don't try to keep Neal in that scenario which, to me, seems like an obvious move after his disastrous western conference playoffs.
- Even if Spurs have about the MLE amount in cap space, don't forget they will still have the room exception to have another player while they won't have a LLE if they go with the MLE.
You also use the assumption Diaw opts in. How likely do you think that is? Also, that would directly impact the cap space (so if he opts out, your number goes from 6.4M in CS to 11M) correct?
Captivus
06-08-2013, 12:33 PM
You also use the assumption Diaw opts in. How likely do you think that is? Also, that would directly impact the cap space (so if he opts out, your number goes from 6.4M in CS to 11M) correct?
What's Diaw value now? More than $5mm?
Ill say 99% he stays.
EDIT: Maybe he prefers a longer contract if he can get one.
SpursSerb
06-08-2013, 12:48 PM
If he opts in,we can still trade him during the season.He's expiring could be a nice bait.
Bruno
06-08-2013, 12:54 PM
You also use the assumption Diaw opts in. How likely do you think that is? Also, that would directly impact the cap space (so if he opts out, your number goes from 6.4M in CS to 11M) correct?
I think it's very likely that he won't opt out. He isn't having a great year and his back issue would be very concerning for a team willing to give him a long term contract. Diaw opting out would add $4.2M in cap space (there is a min roster charge to count in that case).
SpursDynasty21
06-09-2013, 12:21 PM
To sum it up, Spurs should have between $22M and $28M in cap space next summer.
That should leave the team with plenty of flexibility. When will Kawhi Leonard need a long-term deal?
exstatic
06-09-2013, 02:47 PM
That should leave the team with plenty of flexibility. When will Kawhi Leonard need a long-term deal?
He'll be restricted next summer. I'm sure he and his agent will evaluate the market, and decide if there are any offers to sign or if they should take the year 4 QO from San Antonio. I imagine that SA will match literally anything. They don't usually do this, but they may want to extend him like they did with Parker, before he hits free agency. Next summer is going to be a feeding frenzy of disappointed LeBron suitors.
Chinook
06-09-2013, 03:28 PM
He'll be restricted next summer. I'm sure he and his agent will evaluate the market, and decide if there are any offers to sign or if they should take the year 4 QO from San Antonio. I imagine that SA will match literally anything. They don't usually do this, but they may want to extend him like they did with Parker, before he hits free agency. Next summer is going to be a feeding frenzy of disappointed LeBron suitors.
What? Leonard isn't a free agent until summer of 2015. No one has to worry about him leaving next summer. The Spurs can't even extend Leonard until then. This is just his second year, so he has two full ones left on his deal.
SpursDynasty21
06-09-2013, 09:38 PM
The Spurs will sign Leonard long-term, right?
Chinook
06-09-2013, 10:45 PM
Certainly, just not until after next season.
Captivus
06-10-2013, 07:49 AM
If Leonard continues to improve the Spurs will have to make a big choice. Becuase if he gets even better, he will be able to get a lot of money.
Hopefully by that time Bonner, Mills, Blair...others are no longer getting paid.
SpursDynasty21
06-11-2013, 03:24 PM
Certainly, just not until after next season.
Ok, thanks!
Chinook
06-18-2013, 05:20 PM
Shamsports had this to say about the Spurs' free-agent outlook:
http://data.shamsports.com/content/images/logos/spurs.jpg San Antonio Spurs (http://data.shamsports.com/content/pages/teams/spurs.jsp)
Committed salary for 2013/14: $41,666,028 (view full forecast (http://data.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/spurs.jsp))
Projected cap space: None
It's a similar story with San Antonio - despite being far short of the cap, and extremely far short of the tax, cap holds for key players Manu Ginobili (http://data.shamsports.com/content/pages/playerProfiles/profileDisplay.jsp?id=354) ($19,136,250, ten year veteran max - to be adjusted upwards after moratorium) andTiago Splitter (http://data.shamsports.com/content/pages/playerProfiles/profileDisplay.jsp?id=713) ($7,493,600) take them almost certainly out of the race.
http://www.shamsports.com/2013/06/the-amount-of-cap-room-teams-will.html
Obviously, he's not assuming that Ginobili will sign a smaller deal quickly to potentially give the Spurs several million to work with. I think he's right functionally, though. I don't consider the Spurs under the cap unless they make some major moves. I doubt they do that, and by the end of draft night, I think we'll have a pretty good idea if they intend to stay over the cap or go under it.
objective
06-21-2013, 05:57 AM
If the Spurs want to salary dump either De Colo or Mills, I think Utah is the team that they trade with. They'll have a ton of caproom, no big time free agents will want to sign there, bad starting point guards, and no true backup other than whichever rookie they draft. Plus Lindsey is there.
Bruno
06-21-2013, 08:00 AM
If Spurs don't count on De Colo for next season, the easiest thing would be just to tell him that he isn't planned to play a bigger role next year. In that case, I don't see him wanting to stay with Spurs and a buyout could be negotiated to let him go back in Spain to sign with a team like Barcelona. And with the stretch provision a $600K buyout could only cost $200K against the cap.
^ yeah that would be the best option for everyone, especially if Manu doesn't retire, I don't see any future for him with this team.
Bruno
06-21-2013, 11:44 AM
^ yeah that would be the best option for everyone, especially if Manu doesn't retire, I don't see any future for him with this team.
I would say that, if Spurs don't add another through free agency, 2 of Ginobili/Neal/De Colo will be back.
Personally, I would go with Ginobili and De Colo.
With the possibility of having a lot of cap space if Manu retires and Splitter not being matched due to a rich offer, how can the spurs use a trade exception to get a player back? Must some asset be included by the team sending the TE in exchange for a player or is the TE enough?
Chinook
06-21-2013, 08:43 PM
With the possibility of having a lot of cap space if Manu retires and Splitter not being matched due to a rich offer, how can the spurs use a trade exception to get a player back? Must some asset be included by the team sending the TE in exchange for a player or is the TE enough?
To be clear, the Spurs do not have a trade exception to use to acquire a player. If they were to trade for one in your scenario, they'd use cap space. The trading team would then get a trade exception (unless they were also under the cap) which they could use to acquire players as if they had cap space. A trade exception is not an asset that can be moved. It is created when a team trades a player and takes back less salary. Therefore, some asset must be included from all parties in the trade. It can just be a second-round pick or rights to a player abroad, or even cash. But it has to be something.
To be clear, the Spurs do not have a trade exception to use to acquire a player. If they were to trade for one in your scenario, they'd use cap space. The trading team would then get a trade exception (unless they were also under the cap) which they could use to acquire players as if they had cap space. A trade exception is not an asset that can be moved. It is created when a team trades a player and takes back less salary. Therefore, some asset must be included from all parties in the trade. It can just be a second-round pick or rights to a player abroad, or even cash. But it has to be something.
OK, so say hypothetically the spurs with their cap space want to acquire DWade who will earn 18m next year. Taking the other assumptions re Manu and Tiago in mind, they still need to include a 2nd round pick to make that happen?
Chinook
06-21-2013, 11:48 PM
OK, so say hypothetically the spurs with their cap space want to acquire DWade who will earn 18m next year. Taking the other assumptions re Manu and Tiago in mind, they still need to include a 2nd round pick to make that happen?
Yes. Or the rights to a player like Lorbek or cash.
objective
06-22-2013, 05:38 AM
So supposing the Spurs were left with, say, 8 million in space after re-signing Manu and Splitter, they would then have the 8 million plus a separate room exception of 2.575 million, do I understand that right?
Chinook
06-22-2013, 11:44 AM
So supposing the Spurs were left with, say, 8 million in space after re-signing Manu and Splitter, they would then have the 8 million plus a separate room exception of 2.575 million, do I understand that right?
Yes.
ViceCity84
06-22-2013, 06:57 PM
DO NOT resign Tiago Splitter
He sucks.Go after David West.If you lose West and Splitter.Fuck it.You aint winning shit with Splitter.
CitizenDwayne
06-22-2013, 07:15 PM
DO NOT resign Tiago Splitter
He sucks.Go after David West.If you lose West and Splitter.Fuck it.You aint winning shit with Splitter.
Oh how fickle fans can be.
sjacquemotte
06-25-2013, 09:28 AM
Real question is how much is he worth? Teams are going to throw some serious scratch at him.
Texas_Ranger
06-28-2013, 07:28 AM
we have 2 days now to release Bonner... I was pleased with the guy this year, but he's not 4M worth.
cdcast
06-29-2013, 12:12 PM
So supposing the Spurs were left with, say, 8 million in space after re-signing Manu and Splitter, they would then have the 8 million plus a separate room exception of 2.575 million, do I understand that right?
Looking at the team, they need to add two players to their core (a big and a guard). In a sign and trade, they could use DeColo and Mills contracts ($2.5 combined) which would give them $10.5 mil to sign one big free agent.
Evans or Milsap- who would you sign?
Or do you split that $10.5 in half and sign a big and guard.
Looking at the team, they need to add two players to their core (a big and a guard). In a sign and trade, they could use DeColo and Mills contracts ($2.5 combined) which would give them $10.5 mil to sign one big free agent.
Evans or Milsap- who would you sign?
Or do you split that $10.5 in half and sign a big and guard.
If Spurs resign and commit to Splitter, then they dont also sign Milsap. Some here speculate that Manu could be had for the room exception, which would potentially free up more that the $8M suggested above. In either case, I'm spending on Evans as the future Manu "replacement" (I know no one can really do that). Money left over can go to picking up a 3/4 tweener who can defend multiple positions like Aminu, or failing that signing Hanga.
Evans, Robinson (via trade), and Aminu-type would be an awesome off-season. In my book thats an upgrade from Bonner, Blair, and Neal.
Could someone explain the following about offers to RFA:
(1) When can teams start doing that, and how long does the other team have to match?
(2) What happens were more than 1 team bids on the same player at the same time?
DesignatedT
06-29-2013, 02:00 PM
Could someone explain the following about offers to RFA:
(1) When can teams start doing that, and how long does the other team have to match?
(2) What happens were more than 1 team bids on the same player at the same time?
1. Teams are allowed to contact Free Agents on July 1st. Free Agents can officially sign with a new team on July 10. If a team wants to sign someone else’s restricted free agent, they have him ink an offer sheet. Then the player’s current team has three days to match it. If the team decides not to match, the player changes teams and the old team gets nothing in return. If the team matches, the player stays put and keeps the contract terms in the offer sheet.
2. He can only sign one offer sheet.
Bruno
06-29-2013, 02:11 PM
First post updated with the latest news (first round pick stashed, Diaw and Mills opting in).
With a Bonner amnestied, Spurs will have $19.3M in cap space at the start of free agency.
1. Teams are allowed to contact Free Agents on July 1st. Free Agents can officially sign with a new team on July 10. If a team wants to sign someone else’s restricted free agent, they have him ink an offer sheet. Then the player’s current team has three days to match it. If the team decides not to match, the player changes teams and the old team gets nothing in return. If the team matches, the player stays put and keeps the contract terms in the offer sheet.
2. He can only sign one offer sheet.
1. So a team can extend and offer sheet on July 1, player signs it the same day, and if he player's team doesn't match it in 3 days, then the FA and new team have an contract to sign a contract on July 10, correct?
2. OK, so Team A and Team B can extend player an offer sheet, and no obligation from the original team to match accrues until the player signs one of the two sheet.
Chinook
06-29-2013, 06:48 PM
1. So a team can extend and offer sheet on July 1, player signs it the same day, and if he player's team doesn't match it in 3 days, then the FA and new team have an contract to sign a contract on July 10, correct?
A player CANNOT sign an offer sheet until the 10th. An offer sheet is a tentative contract, so there's no more negotiating for any team once it's signed. A player can agree to terms for an offer sheet starting on the first, but they can sign it for nine more days. After a player actually signs the offer sheet, the team has three days to match. This means the earliest a player who signs an offer sheet can switch teams is the 13th unless his former team declines to match earlier.
2. OK, so Team A and Team B can extend player an offer sheet, and no obligation from the original team to match accrues until the player signs one of the two sheet.
Yes. Everyone's allowed to change details and try to work out a sign-and-trade until the player signs an offer sheet. After that, the offer sheet is the official contract for the player. The only thing left to be determined is which team will be on the other end of that contract.
DesignatedT
06-29-2013, 06:49 PM
1. So a team can extend and offer sheet on July 1, player signs it the same day, and if he player's team doesn't match it in 3 days, then the FA and new team have an contract to sign a contract on July 10, correct?
2. OK, so Team A and Team B can extend player an offer sheet, and no obligation from the original team to match accrues until the player signs one of the two sheet.
1. Didn't understand everything you said but the first day for RFA's to sign offer sheets will be July 10. They can talk with teams July 1 but can't officially sign a offer sheet until the 10th. At that point the players team has 3 days to match.
2. Correct.
DPG21920
06-29-2013, 07:00 PM
First post updated with the latest news (first round pick stashed, Diaw and Mills opting in).
With a Bonner amnestied, Spurs will have $19.3M in cap space at the start of free agency.
Not including Tiago's cap hold, correct?
DPG21920
06-29-2013, 07:06 PM
So really the Spurs at this point (assuming they amnesty Bonner) have ~11M for a FA+Manu. If they let Tiago walk then they have that full 19M.
spursince#99
06-29-2013, 07:16 PM
So really the Spurs at this point (assuming they amnesty Bonner) have ~11M for a FA+Manu. If they let Tiago walk then they have that full 19M.
who said Tiago would get 8 million?
bluebellmaniac
06-29-2013, 08:06 PM
who said Tiago would get 8 million?
If Tiago walks then it frees up his $7.5M cap hold.
spursince#99
06-29-2013, 08:07 PM
If Tiago walks then it frees up his $7.5M cap hold.
You mean renounce his rights?
bluebellmaniac
06-29-2013, 08:09 PM
You mean renounce his rights?
Yes
Sdayi135
06-29-2013, 09:07 PM
Yes
They should.
Bruno
06-30-2013, 12:33 AM
Not including Tiago's cap hold, correct?
Yep, correct.
So really the Spurs at this point (assuming they amnesty Bonner) have ~11M for a FA+Manu. If they let Tiago walk then they have that full 19M.
It's a little than that more because there are roster cap holds that will disappear. If Spurs amnesty Bonner and keep Splitter bird rights/QO, they will have $12.8M to split between Ginobili and a free agent.
spurs10
06-30-2013, 01:32 AM
Yep, correct.
It's a little than that more because there are roster cap holds that will disappear. If Spurs amnesty Bonner and keep Splitter bird rights/QO, they will have $12.8M to split between Ginobili and a free agent.Interesting, so they are likey to have around 7 mil to spend on a FA....??
If the only way to remove Manu's cap hold to either re-sign with Spurs at lower contract, let him sign with another team, or for him to retire?
Chinook
07-01-2013, 04:20 PM
If the only way to remove Manu's cap hold to either re-sign with Spurs at lower contract, let him sign with another team, or for him to retire?
No. They can renounce his rights. That takes away his cap hold, but it also takes away the team's ability to give Ginobili a max contract. He'd only be able to re-sign him for whatever room they had under the salary cap or for all or part of whatever exceptions they had. That might seem like a risk, but functionally, it's not. It's pretty much what they're going to end up doing, but with the moratorium, there's little need to make it official.
Assume the Spurs transact the sign and trade of Splitter for Gortat as "rumored" and the salaries otherwise match up. What impact, is any, does this have on their cap space?
I'm trying to figure out at what point they do the sign an trade: before or after signing another player with cap space? I'm operating under the assumption above that Spurs will renounce Manu's rights to get up from under the cap-hold, knowing full well he signs here regardless.
SpursDynasty21
07-01-2013, 10:10 PM
If Splitter signs elsewhere, does that open up more salary cap space?
Chinook
07-01-2013, 10:16 PM
Assume the Spurs transact the sign and trade of Splitter for Gortat as "rumored" and the salaries otherwise match up. What impact, is any, does this have on their cap space?
Very little. It would be the difference between Splitter's cap hold and Gortat's salary for next season. It's about $234k less cap space after the trade.
I'm trying to figure out at what point they do the sign an trade: before or after signing another player with cap space? I'm operating under the assumption above that Spurs will renounce Manu's rights to get up from under the cap-hold, knowing full well he signs here regardless.
After for the most part if the team is taking back a large salary, and before if they're taking back a small salary. If the Spurs S&T Splitter for a player making $10 Million, then they need to use their cap space first. If they're just trading him for a trade exception, then they should do that early to open up more cap space to sign players.
It's the same thing as re-signing Splitter. Right now, he counts for $7.5 Million against the cap. If he's going to sign for more than that, they then should wait until after they use their cap space to ink him. If he's going to sign for less than that, they should sign him first to create more cap space.
Chinook
07-01-2013, 10:16 PM
If Splitter signs elsewhere, does that open up more salary cap space?
Yes, about $7 Million.
SpursDynasty21
07-01-2013, 10:18 PM
Yes, about $7 Million.
Thanks. Another reason to hope Splitter signs elsewhere.
Anonymous Cowherd
07-02-2013, 03:40 PM
So with Splitter resigning for 36/4, is this a correct picture pre-Manu re-upping:
Most possible cap space (stretched contract, Bonner amnestied) = $13m
Least realistic cap space (equal split contract, Bonner kept) = $7.8m
?
SpursDynasty21
07-03-2013, 10:38 AM
Will the Spurs be able to sign Kawhi Leonard to a long-term deal soon? He seems like the one player the team needs to build around in the post Big 3 era.
DesignatedT
07-03-2013, 12:24 PM
Will the Spurs be able to sign Kawhi Leonard to a long-term deal soon? He seems like the one player the team needs to build around in the post Big 3 era.
They can offer a 5 year extension next off-season.
SpursDynasty21
07-03-2013, 12:27 PM
They can offer a 5 year extension next off-season.
Cool, thanks.
Mel_13
07-03-2013, 02:24 PM
From December 18th:
If you mean an extension, that is not possible.
They'll tender the qualifying offer to make him a restricted free agent and they'll keep him as long as the numbers don't get too stupid.
As to Manu, Duncan set the standard for a final contract. His salary this year is about 45% of his previous salary.
If he signs for a flat 7M, that will represent 49% of his 2012-13 salary.
The first part of that post was about Splitter, btw.
What are possible nuances of the MLE? I assume it can be split between two players, and that it doesn't have to be for the full 4 years. Can it be structured to include team and player options in say years 3 and 4? Can the last year be partially guaranteed?
Mel_13
07-04-2013, 11:36 AM
What are possible nuances of the MLE? I assume it can be split between two players, and that it doesn't have to be for the full 4 years. Can it be structured to include team and player options in say years 3 and 4? Can the last year be partially guaranteed?
Yes to all. The MLE is pretty flexible.
http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q25
Chinook
07-04-2013, 01:16 PM
^Except to the options part. It can only include an option in year four, and it can be either a team or a player option. Not both.
Kineto
07-04-2013, 02:05 PM
^Except to the options part. It can only include an option in year four, and it can be either a team or a player option. Not both.
Diaw was signed with the MLE, and he had a player option on his second year (this year).
Chinook
07-04-2013, 04:34 PM
Diaw was signed with the MLE, and he had a player option on his second year (this year).
That was the final year of his deal. I was speaking the in context of CGD's questions, which asked about options in the third and fourth years of a four-year deal.
Redshadows
07-04-2013, 10:36 PM
I think Spurs might not want to sign contract which is more than two years unless a player is in long term plan, so Spurs could create a lot of cap space when Duncan and Ginobili retire.
I want to know what you think about these recent moves of Spurs, Bruno.
SpursDynasty21
07-04-2013, 11:38 PM
I think Spurs might not want to sign contract which is more than two years unless a player is in long term plan, so Spurs could create a lot of cap space when Duncan and Ginobili retire.
I want to know what you think about these recent moves of Spurs, Bruno.
I agree, which is why I don't like the Splitter signing. I don't see him in the long-term plans for the team.
Bruno
07-05-2013, 01:49 AM
I think Spurs might not want to sign contract which is more than two years unless a player is in long term plan, so Spurs could create a lot of cap space when Duncan and Ginobili retire.
I want to know what you think about these recent moves of Spurs, Bruno.
It really depends on with what exception Belinelli has been signed.
If he will be signed with a part of the MLE, there might have a willingness for Spurs to have as little money as possible committed for the 2015-2016 season.
If he will be signed with the room exception, there is nothing to say since that exception max length is 2 years. What would be telling will be what Spurs will do with their cap space.
Kineto
07-05-2013, 03:49 AM
It really depends on with what exception Belinelli has been signed.
If he will be signed with a part of the MLE, there might have a willingness for Spurs to have as little money as possible committed for the 2015-2016 season.
If he will be signed with the room exception, there is nothing to say since that exception max length is 2 years. What would be telling will be what Spurs will do with their cap space.
room exception or MLE : does the spurs have allready decided at the moment ?
Is it possible that the spurs have an agreement with belinelli for 5,5-5,6M, and that they will decide later with what exception they will pay him, in fonction of what they can do with other free agent ?
If they can sign kirilenko or millsap with a sign a nd trade, they give him the room exception.
If they can't, they give him a part of the MLE, and use the rest for a backup 3 like caspi.
Bruno
07-05-2013, 04:28 AM
room exception or MLE : does the spurs have allready decided at the moment ?
Is it possible that the spurs have an agreement with belinelli for 5,5-5,6M, and that they will decide later with what exception they will pay him, in fonction of what they can do with other free agent ?
If they can sign kirilenko or millsap with a sign a nd trade, they give him the room exception.
If they can't, they give him a part of the MLE, and use the rest for a backup 3 like caspi.
The first day to sign Belinelli is July 10th. Spurs have no need or interest to decide before that.
It's even possible that Spurs and Belinelli have agreed at 2 different contracts: one at $5.6M paid with a part of the MLE and one at $5.42M paid with the room exception. To offset that difference, the $5.42M could feature a salary payment schedule more favorable, a trade bonus or even a player option on the second year.
Now, if Spurs have made the effort to fit Belinelli under the room exception, it's obvious that their first option would be to amnesty Bonner and use that cap space one way or another.
adonis827
07-05-2013, 06:49 AM
lol ak47 and casspi on their sights. they are not eyeing any americans at all?
Spurs might as well decrease some contracts if possible- Diaw + Bonner 10m combined expiring. Stack up and improve the second and third unit. Patty Mills as much as I love that dude, Cojo, De Colo, Baynes etc might be decent end of the bench but if you can further improve that would be cool.
Frenchie
07-05-2013, 07:27 AM
Bruno Is it possible to make a sign&trade for Kirilenko as you mentionned somewhere else with a salary starting around $7m, sign Belinelli with the room exception and then sign another player with the MLE ?
Captivus
07-05-2013, 07:41 AM
http://www.hoopsworld.com/2015-nba-free-agents
Bruno
07-05-2013, 07:50 AM
Bruno Is it possible to make a sign&trade for Kirilenko as you mentionned somewhere else with a salary starting around $7m, sign Belinelli with the room exception and then sign another player with the MLE ?
You can't do that. The MLE can't be used at the same time than cap space or the room exception.
Spurs have basically 2 options:
- Cap space and room exception.
- MLE.
In the cap space + room exception case, Belinelli will eat all the room exception and Spurs will have about $6M in cap space to add another player. Bonner will be amnestied in that scenario. Spurs could open a little more cap space by, for example, salary dumping De Colo.
In the MLE case, Belinelli will take half of the MLE. Spurs will have the other half ($2.5M)to go after a player . Bonner will be kept.
Kineto
07-05-2013, 08:39 AM
Spurs have basically 2 options:
- Cap space and room exception.
- MLE.
If the spurs sign Neal for 4M/yrs, and trade him with another team for less salary (let's say Gerald Green ($3,5M/yrs) + 2nd round pick for exemple), is it considering using cap space, or is it a "normal" trade, and the MLE is still available ?
Bruno
07-05-2013, 08:59 AM
If the spurs sign Neal for 4M/yrs, and trade him with another team for less salary (let's say Gerald Green ($3,5M/yrs) + 2nd round pick for exemple), is it considering using cap space, or is it a "normal" trade, and the MLE is still available ?
If Spurs do a trade or a S&T where they get 150%+$100K of what they have send, it would be a "normal" trade and Spurs would still have their MLE. For example, if Bonner guaranteed deadline has been pushed, he could be used in a trade or in a S&T.
The example you have given, doesn't respect that rule. Neal would be what was called in the previous CBA, BYC. His outgoing value in that trade would be half of his new salary. $3.5M doesn't fit into 150%+$100k of $2M. The trade would only work as a cap space trade with Spurs having to amnesty Bonner first.
bluebellmaniac
07-05-2013, 09:34 AM
In the case of trying to acquire AK47, here is my best estimate of where we stand in salary before trying to acquire him:
It is my understanding that we can go over the salary cap if we do the transaction as a trade with Minnesota. So if Minnesota agrees to sign and trade him to us, we could add him. We wouldn't have to send a player back, just generate a TPE for Minny (and maybe a protected 2nd rounder or so). If we do so, then we are hard capped at being no more that $4M over the Tax, which I do not think would be a problem. From my reading of the rules on the use of Exceptions, we could still use either the Non-Taxpaying MLE to sign Belinelli, so long as we do not go $4M into the Tax.
So if we end up not getting AK47 and we are under the cap, we must use the Room Exception on Belinelli. If we get Minnesota to sign and trade him to us, we would use the Non-Taxpaying MLE to sign Belinelli, which leaves room for another signing btw, so long as we stay within the Tax Apron ($4M).
Am I off somewhere on this?
CBA FAQ (http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q73)
Player
2013-14
Notes
Manu Ginobili*
$7,000,000
* = not confirmed
Tony Parker
$12,500,000
Marco Belinelli*
$2,652,000
* = assumes Room Exception (Non- Taxpaying MLE could pay more)
Tim Duncan
$10,361,446
Boris Diaw
$4,702,500
Tiago Splitter*
$9,000,000
* = not confirmed
Matt Bonner
$3,945,000
Danny Green
$3,762,500
Kawhi Leonard
$1,887,840
Nando De Colo
$1,463,000
Patrick Mills
$1,133,950
Cory Joseph
$1,120,920
Aron Baynes
$788,872
Total salaries:
$60,318,028
Salary Cap*
$58,044,000
* = est from '12-'13 season
Luxury Tax*
$70,307,000
* = est from '12-'13 season
Luxury Tax Apron, Hard Cap*
$74,307,000
* = if Room Exception used or Received a Player in Sign and Trade
bluebellmaniac
07-05-2013, 10:54 AM
So refreshing my previous reading of the CBA brings the following to my understanding of the most likely scenarios in signing our new contracts.
For reference:
The Room Exception is for Teams that are under the Salary Cap. The Room Exception allows teams to sign additional contracts worth up to $2.652 million for '13-'14, even if it means exceeding the Salary Cap. Using the Room Exception eliminates being able to use the Non-Taxpaying Mid-Level Exception.
The Non-Taxpaying Mid-Level Exception is for Teams over the Salary Cap but under the Luxury Tax Apron, which is the Luxury Tax + $4M. This exception allows teams to sign additional contracts worth up to $5.15 million for '13-'14.
I seriously doubt we would go into the Tax, much less go over by more than $4M, so I won't discuss the Taxpaying Mid-Level Exception.
So this is what I think the order of our signings will be as of the 10th, if we get Minny to sign and trade us AK47:
AK47: Signed and traded to us by Minny. Salary = ???? (Free Agent Cap Holds are NOT taken into account when dealing with a S&T)
Manu: Signed for $7M in '13-'14
Splitter: Signed for $9M in '13-'14 (by this point we are over the Salary Cap, but under the Luxury Tax)
Belinelli: Signed using the NT MLE ... $2.8M ???
We will have the remaining of the MLE to sign any additional FA, so long as we don't go $4M over the Luxury Tax.
Then of course we have the Vet minimums we can offer.
That said, where are the mistakes?
Mel_13
07-05-2013, 11:25 AM
So refreshing my previous reading of the CBA brings the following to my understanding of the most likely scenarios in signing our new contracts.
For reference:
The Room Exception is for Teams that are under the Salary Cap. The Room Exception allows teams to sign additional contracts worth up to $2.652 million for '13-'14, even if it means exceeding the Salary Cap. Using the Room Exception eliminates being able to use the Non-Taxpaying Mid-Level Exception.
The Non-Taxpaying Mid-Level Exception is for Teams over the Salary Cap but under the Luxury Tax Apron, which is the Luxury Tax + $4M. This exception allows teams to sign additional contracts worth up to $5.15 million for '13-'14.
I seriously doubt we would go into the Tax, much less go over by more than $4M, so I won't discuss the Taxpaying Mid-Level Exception.
So this is what I think the order of our signings will be as of the 10th, if we get Minny to sign and trade us AK47:
AK47: Signed and traded to us by Minny. Salary = ???? (Free Agent Cap Holds are NOT taken into account when dealing with a S&T)
Manu: Signed for $7M in '13-'14
Splitter: Signed for $9M in '13-'14 (by this point we are over the Salary Cap, but under the Luxury Tax)
Belinelli: Signed using the NT MLE ... $2.8M ???
We will have the remaining of the MLE to sign any additional FA, so long as we don't go $4M over the Luxury Tax.
Then of course we have the Vet minimums we can offer.
That said, where are the mistakes?
Assuming that we're talking about the same hypothetical S&T, then you're right up the Beli signing. The most common hypothetical has the Spurs clearing cap space (Bonner amnesty and perhaps a small salary dump for Nando and/or Mills). Then the S&T with Minny would send a pick or a stashed Euro away for AK47. Bottom line is that Minny would take no salary in return and would trade AK47 into San Antonio's cap space (creating a good sized TE). Having used cap space to execute the trade, the Spurs would then sign Beli with the room exception. They would not have the MLE as a result of using cap space in the S&T. After the S&T and using the room exception, the Spurs would only have the vet min for any further FA signings.
bluebellmaniac
07-05-2013, 11:45 AM
Assuming that we're talking about the same hypothetical S&T, then you're right up the Beli signing. The most common hypothetical has the Spurs clearing cap space (Bonner amnesty and perhaps a small salary dump for Nando and/or Mills). Then the S&T with Minny would send a pick or a stashed Euro away for AK47. Bottom line is that Minny would take no salary in return and would trade AK47 into San Antonio's cap space (creating a good sized TE). Having used cap space to execute the trade, the Spurs would then sign Beli with the room exception. They would not have the MLE as a result of using cap space in the S&T. After the S&T and using the room exception, the Spurs would only have the vet min for any further FA signings.
I get confused as to why we would amnesty Bonner or salary dump NDC / Mills. So long as we are under the Tax apron we can go over the salary cap on a trade. If we can get Minny to trade us AK47 for enough to keep us over the Salary Cap, we are in a better position b/c we can then use the NT MLE.
Here is my logic for the order:
1. AK47: Minny S&T him to us for a protected 2nd rounder. FA cap holds are not taken into account for S&T (<-This is important). So for a S&T, we look like we are under the cap. No need to amnesty Bonner or shed salary.
2. Splitter: Sign to $9M via Bird Rights due to being over the Luxury Tax with Manu's $19M cap hold
3. Manu: Sign to $7M deal for next year. This drops his cap hold from $19M down to $7M and we are now under the Tax but over the salary cap. We now have the NT MLE available
4. Belinelli: Signed via the NT MLE. Money from the NT MLE is available for another FA.
I don't see us needing to amnesty Bonner to get this done or to shed NDC/Mills salary either.
Am I getting something wrong about step 1, being able to receive AK47 in a S&T to put us over the salary cap? Pretty sure that is what the CBA FAQ stated.
Mel_13
07-05-2013, 11:52 AM
I get confused as to why we would amnesty Bonner or salary dump NDC / Mills. So long as we are under the Tax apron we can go over the salary cap on a trade. If we can get Minny to trade us AK47 for enough to keep us over the Salary Cap, we are in a better position b/c we can then use the NT MLE.
Here is my logic for the order:
1. AK47: Minny S&T him to us for a protected 2nd rounder. FA cap holds are not taken into account for S&T (<-This is important). So for a S&T, we look like we are under the cap. No need to amnesty Bonner or shed salary.
2. Splitter: Sign to $9M via Bird Rights due to being over the Luxury Tax with Manu's $19M cap hold
3. Manu: Sign to $7M deal for next year. This drops his cap hold from $19M down to $7M and we are now under the Tax but over the salary cap. We now have the NT MLE available
4. Belinelli: Signed via the NT MLE. Money from the NT MLE is available for another FA.
I don't see us needing to amnesty Bonner to get this done or to shed NDC/Mills salary either.
Am I getting something wrong about step 1, being able to receive AK47 in a S&T to put us over the salary cap? Pretty sure that is what the CBA FAQ stated.
2 problems:
1. In a normal trade the salaries have to meet the rules of the CBA. So, the Spurs could take back 150% + 100K of what they send out. They can't just send out a second round pick unless they sufficient cap room to fit the incoming salary. (I don't know where you're getting the bit about cap holds not counting, but I'm sure that's incorrect)
2. On Minny's side, they have an agreement to sign Kevin Martin to a 4yr/28M deal. That means signing him with cap space, which means they can't take salary back, at least not much, in a S&T involving AK47.
Luxic
07-05-2013, 11:59 AM
I get confused as to why we would amnesty Bonner or salary dump NDC / Mills. So long as we are under the Tax apron we can go over the salary cap on a trade. If we can get Minny to trade us AK47 for enough to keep us over the Salary Cap, we are in a better position b/c we can then use the NT MLE.
Here is my logic for the order:
1. AK47: Minny S&T him to us for a protected 2nd rounder. FA cap holds are not taken into account for S&T (<-This is important). So for a S&T, we look like we are under the cap. No need to amnesty Bonner or shed salary.
2. Splitter: Sign to $9M via Bird Rights due to being over the Luxury Tax with Manu's $19M cap hold
3. Manu: Sign to $7M deal for next year. This drops his cap hold from $19M down to $7M and we are now under the Tax but over the salary cap. We now have the NT MLE available
4. Belinelli: Signed via the NT MLE. Money from the NT MLE is available for another FA.
I don't see us needing to amnesty Bonner to get this done or to shed NDC/Mills salary either.
Am I getting something wrong about step 1, being able to receive AK47 in a S&T to put us over the salary cap? Pretty sure that is what the CBA FAQ stated.
Yes, you are. CBA FAQ states (Q (http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q80)80 (http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q80)): "Teams under the salary cap may make trades as they please, as long as they don't finish more than $100,000 above the salary cap following any trade. But if a team finishes more than $100,000 over the cap, whether they started out above or below the cap, then an exception is required."
The second mistake you are making is not taking into account cap holds. As long as Ginobili and Splitter are not either resigned or renounced, they count for $19,1M and $7,5M against the cap, respectively. This is to prevent teams from signing other teams' free agents through cap space and then using the Larry Bird exception to re-sign their own ones as well.
Redshadows
07-05-2013, 12:01 PM
http://www.hoopsworld.com/2015-nba-free-agents
1.Marc Gasol.
2.Kevin Love.
3.LaMarcus Aldridge.
Redshadows
07-05-2013, 12:03 PM
lol ak47 and casspi on their sights. they are not eyeing any americans at all?
Spurs might as well decrease some contracts if possible- Diaw + Bonner 10m combined expiring. Stack up and improve the second and third unit. Patty Mills as much as I love that dude, Cojo, De Colo, Baynes etc might be decent end of the bench but if you can further improve that would be cool.
Yes, Jim Boylen.
Redshadows
07-05-2013, 12:08 PM
I agree, which is why I don't like the Splitter signing. I don't see him in the long-term plans for the team.
I think it easy to trade a quality big like Splitter if Spurs wanted to create cap space in the 2015 summer.
If Spurs went after a PF in the 2015 summer, I would like Spurs to keep Splitter. He is a very good role player.
bluebellmaniac
07-05-2013, 02:20 PM
Yes, you are. CBA FAQ states (Q (http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q80)80 (http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q80)): "Teams under the salary cap may make trades as they please, as long as they don't finish more than $100,000 above the salary cap following any trade. But if a team finishes more than $100,000 over the cap, whether they started out above or below the cap, then an exception is required."
The second mistake you are making is not taking into account cap holds. As long as Ginobili and Splitter are not either resigned or renounced, they count for $19,1M and $7,5M against the cap, respectively. This is to prevent teams from signing other teams' free agents through cap space and then using the Larry Bird exception to re-sign their own ones as well.
You need to include the following sentence to Q80. It states that you can go over the salary cap and that it only requires a trade exception.
Teams under the salary cap may make trades as they please, as long as they don't finish more than $100,000 above the salary cap following any trade. But if a team finishes more than $100,000 over the cap, whether they started out above or below the cap, then an exception is required. An exception is the mechanism that allows a team to make trades or sign players and finish over the salary cap. Since most teams are usually over the salary cap, trades are usually completed using exceptions.
The exceptions available for making trades are as follows:
The Traded Player exception is the principal means through which most trades are made. It is described in question numbers 81 (http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q81), 82 (http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q82) and 83 (http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q83).
The type of trade is a Non-Simultaneous trade.
Q81 states:
The Traded Player exception is the primary means by which teams over the cap complete trades. It allows teams to make trades that leave them over the cap, but it places several restrictions on those trades.
From #83 of the CBA FAQ, we get: There are several common misconceptions about trade exceptions and non-simultaneous trades:
Teams cannot use trade exceptions to sign free agents; they can be used only to acquire existing contracts from other teams. However, a team can acquire a free agent using a trade exception if he is signed by his prior team and traded in a sign-and-trade transaction (see question number 89 (http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q89))
So Minny would sign and trade us AK47 prior to submitting the KMart contract. They would then have KMart and a valuable trade exception.
In looking at #14 to determine the team salary, a different calculation is done when doing a sign and trade. You compute the team salary differently. It says this about doing the team salary calculation:
They use a slightly different calculation for determining the team salary in relation to the Bi-Annual, Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level, and Taxpayer Mid-Level exceptions (see question number 25 (http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q25)), and for Sign-and-Trade transactions (see question number 89 (http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q89)). For these purposes they use the team salary as defined above, with the following modifications:
All unlikely bonuses are included for contracts and extensions signed under the current CBA.
Amounts that could be included in team salary as the result of certain grievances are included.
For rookies and players with one year of experience whose salary is less than the two-year minimum salary, the two-year minimum salary is used in place of their actual salary.
For the team's restricted free agents, the amount of any outstanding qualifying offer or first refusal exercise notice (both including unlikely bonuses), whichever is greater, are included. <-- This applies to Tiago. He counts for $7.5M
The amount of any required tenders for the team's draft picks is included.
Cap holds for free agents are excluded. <-- This applies to Manu. He does not count toward the team salary computation in a sign-and-trade.
Cap holds for first round draft picks are excluded.
Cap holds for the team's outstanding exceptions are excluded.
They do this because those exceptions and sign-and-trade transactions affect whether the team is subject to a hard cap (see question number 25 (http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q25)), and these modifications to the team salary calculation ensure that subject teams remain below the apron.
So when you exclude Manu's cap hold and use $7.5M for Tiago, we can accept AK47 because that would still leave us under the salary cap. After we have AK47, then we sign Tiago and Manu, which then sets us above the salary cap, but below the tax apron. We can then use the NT MLE to sign Belinelli.
Mel_13
07-05-2013, 02:35 PM
I'm going to say something in general and then address a specific part of your post.
Every year, well-meaning people think that they've discovered some loophole in the CBA that can be exploited. NBA teams pay big money to people to find every crack in the CBA. So ask yourself a question before you keep expending energy on this:
Why can't you point to a single past transaction that was executed using the theory you're proposing? (If teams could acquire big name FAs in S&Ts simply by delaying the resigning of their own FAs it would happen all the time.)
Teams cannot use trade exceptions to sign free agents; they can be used only to acquire existing contracts from other teams. However, a team can acquire a free agent using a trade exception if he is signed by his prior team and traded in a sign-and-trade transaction (see question number 89 (http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q89))
[/LIST]
So Minny would sign and trade us AK47 prior to submitting the KMart contract. They would then have KMart and a valuable trade exception.
Now to the specific. Minny could trade AK47 to the Spurs for nothing if the Spurs already had a large enough trade exception (from some previous trade). The Spurs do not possess a large enough trade exception to accept AK47's salary. So they would have to first create enough cap space to accept his contract. That trade would generate a trade exception that Minny could use in future trade for up to one year after the initial trade.
Hope that's clear enough to help.
Bruno
07-05-2013, 02:58 PM
When Larry Coon said that free agents cap holds are excluded in "Sign-and-Trade transactions", they are excluded just to determine if a team can receive a player in a S&T. With the new CBA, a team that is a above the apron ($4M above the luxury tax level) can't receive a player in a S&T.
Free agents cap holds are not removed to match salaries during the S&T. S&T rules are exactly like trade rules. It's 150%+100K (not all the time but doesn't matter) or the team must be within $100k of the salary cap after the trade.
In Spurs case with Bonner amnestied, and empty AK47 S&T would let Spurs in the follwing situation:
Tony Parker: $12,500,000
Tim Duncan: $10,361,446
Boris Diaw: $4,702,500
Danny Green: $3,762,500
Nando De Colo: $1,463,000
Kawhi Leonard: $1,887,840
Patrick Mills: $1,133,950
Cory Joseph: $1,120,920
Aron Baynes: $788,872
Manu Ginobili: $6,746,988
Splitter's cap hold: $7,493,600
Kirilenko salary: $X
Total: $51,961,616 +$X
If you take a salary cap at $58.5M, Spurs should be at max at $58.6M which makes Kirlenkjo max possible salary at $6,638,384.
spursfan4ever
07-05-2013, 03:09 PM
When Larry Coon said that free agents cap holds are excluded in "Sign-and-Trade transactions", they are excluded just to determine if a team can receive a player in a S&T. With the new CBA, a team that is a above the apron ($4M above the luxury tax level) can't receive a player in a S&T.
Free agents cap holds are not removed to match salaries during the S&T. S&T rules are exactly like trade rules. It's 150%+100K (not all the time but doesn't matter) or the team must be within $100k of the salary cap after the trade.
In Spurs case with Bonner amnestied, and empty AK47 S&T would let Spurs in the follwing situation:
Tony Parker: $12,500,000
Tim Duncan: $10,361,446
Boris Diaw: $4,702,500
Danny Green: $3,762,500
Nando De Colo: $1,463,000
Kawhi Leonard: $1,887,840
Patrick Mills: $1,133,950
Cory Joseph: $1,120,920
Aron Baynes: $788,872
Manu Ginobili: $6,746,988
Splitter's cap hold: $7,493,600
Kirilenko salary: $X
Total: $51,961,616 +$X
If you take a salary cap at $58.5M, Spurs should be at max at $58.6M which makes Kirlenkjo max possible salary at $6,638,384.
What about the recent acquisition or agreeing of Marco Belinili cap hold?
Bruno
07-05-2013, 03:11 PM
What about the recent acquisition or agreeing of Marco Belinili cap hold?
Belinelli hasn't been signed and can't be signed like most of the free agents before July 10th. In that scenario, he would be signed just after the Kirilenko S&T with the room exception.
Mel_13
07-05-2013, 03:13 PM
What about the recent acquisition or agreeing of Marco Belinili cap hold?
In that scenario, Belinelli would be signed after the AK47 using the room exception.
bluebellmaniac
07-05-2013, 03:17 PM
When Larry Coon said that free agents cap holds are excluded in "Sign-and-Trade transactions", they are excluded just to determine if a team can receive a player in a S&T. With the new CBA, a team that is a above the apron ($4M above the luxury tax level) can't receive a player in a S&T.
Free agents cap holds are not removed to match salaries during the S&T. S&T rules are exactly like trade rules. It's 150%+100K (not all the time but doesn't matter) or the team must be within $100k of the salary cap after the trade.
In Spurs case with Bonner amnestied, and empty AK47 S&T would let Spurs in the follwing situation:
Tony Parker: $12,500,000
Tim Duncan: $10,361,446
Boris Diaw: $4,702,500
Danny Green: $3,762,500
Nando De Colo: $1,463,000
Kawhi Leonard: $1,887,840
Patrick Mills: $1,133,950
Cory Joseph: $1,120,920
Aron Baynes: $788,872
Manu Ginobili: $6,746,988
Splitter's cap hold: $7,493,600
Kirilenko salary: $X
Total: $51,961,616 +$X
If you take a salary cap at $58.5M, Spurs should be at max at $58.6M which makes Kirlenkjo max possible salary at $6,638,384.
Thanks Bruno. Would the trade not be able to be worked as a Non-Simultaneous trade, thus creating a TE for Minny? So when calculating if the Spurs could receive him, wouldn't you exclude Manu's cap hold in that calculation since he is a free agent? That would push down the calculated team salary a significant amount.
If we have to include Manu's, wouldn't we also have to include Horry's as listed on Sham's page?
spursfan4ever
07-05-2013, 03:24 PM
Belinelli hasn't been signed and can't be signed like most of the free agents before July 10th. In that scenario, he would be signed just after the Kirilenko S&T with the room exception.
Thanks guys for the clarification. That was the only question I had when reading your post.
Bruno
07-05-2013, 03:26 PM
Thanks Bruno. Would the trade not be able to be worked as a Non-Simultaneous trade, thus creating a TE for Minny? So when calculating if the Spurs could receive him, wouldn't you exclude Manu's cap hold in that calculation since he is a free agent? That would push down the calculated team salary a significant amount.
If we have to include Manu's, wouldn't we also have to include Horry's as listed on Sham's page?
It would be a non-simultaneous trade For Minny but not for Spurs. For Spurs, it would be a trade made by a team bellow the cap and that must end within $100K of the cap after it and non-renounced free agents had to be include.
Before doing that trade, Spurs would need to renounce at all of their free agents except Tiago. Blair or Horry would be renounced. They would also need a letter from Jean-Charles stating he would stay in Europe for the full season to remove the cap hold associated with the 28th pick.
bluebellmaniac
07-05-2013, 03:42 PM
Thanks Bruno!
Seventyniner
07-06-2013, 12:19 AM
It would be a non-simultaneous trade For Minny but not for Spurs. For Spurs, it would be a trade made by a team bellow the cap and that must end within $100K of the cap after it and non-renounced free agents had to be include.
Before doing that trade, Spurs would need to renounce at all of their free agents except Tiago. Blair or Horry would be renounced. They would also need a letter from Jean-Charles stating he would stay in Europe for the full season to remove the cap hold associated with the 28th pick.
Instead of renouncing Manu, the Spurs could just sign him, right?
Mel_13
07-06-2013, 12:32 AM
Instead of renouncing Manu, the Spurs could just sign him, right?
This hypothetical has gone around the block a few times, but I'm certain that it assumes that Manu would be signed at this point in the proceedings. Tiago would not be signed yet as his cap hold is lower than his new salary, thus creating the maximum possible cap space.
coyotes_geek
07-06-2013, 12:52 AM
When Larry Coon said that free agents cap holds are excluded in "Sign-and-Trade transactions", they are excluded just to determine if a team can receive a player in a S&T. With the new CBA, a team that is a above the apron ($4M above the luxury tax level) can't receive a player in a S&T.
Free agents cap holds are not removed to match salaries during the S&T. S&T rules are exactly like trade rules. It's 150%+100K (not all the time but doesn't matter) or the team must be within $100k of the salary cap after the trade.
In Spurs case with Bonner amnestied, and empty AK47 S&T would let Spurs in the follwing situation:
Tony Parker: $12,500,000
Tim Duncan: $10,361,446
Boris Diaw: $4,702,500
Danny Green: $3,762,500
Nando De Colo: $1,463,000
Kawhi Leonard: $1,887,840
Patrick Mills: $1,133,950
Cory Joseph: $1,120,920
Aron Baynes: $788,872
Manu Ginobili: $6,746,988
Splitter's cap hold: $7,493,600
Kirilenko salary: $X
Total: $51,961,616 +$X
If you take a salary cap at $58.5M, Spurs should be at max at $58.6M which makes Kirlenkjo max possible salary at $6,638,384.
Shouldn't there be a cap hold for a roster charge in there? Once Bonner gets amnestied that drops the Spurs down to 11 players (10 under contract + Splitters cap hold). That would take $490,180 off of what they could start AK at.
Bruno
07-06-2013, 01:25 AM
Shouldn't there be a cap hold for a roster charge in there? Once Bonner gets amnestied that drops the Spurs down to 11 players (10 under contract + Splitters cap hold). That would take $490,180 off of what they could start AK at.
I'm not 100% sure of that but it depends on if you get Kirilenko through a classic cap space signing or through an "empty" S&T.
If you just sign Kirilenko, there is a cap hold as you said. If you get him through a S&T, rule is that Spurs payroll should be below the cap+$100K after the trade so the cap hold disapear. This difference makes that Spurs could offer Kirilenko $6M through a classic signing and $6.6M through a S&T.
Captivus
07-10-2013, 08:06 AM
http://data.shamsports.com/media/TAX2013B.jpg
elemento
07-10-2013, 09:31 AM
I'm not 100% sure of that but it depends on if you get Kirilenko through a classic cap space signing or through an "empty" S&T.
If you just sign Kirilenko, there is a cap hold as you said. If you get him through a S&T, rule is that Spurs payroll should be below the cap+$100K after the trade so the cap hold disapear. This difference makes that Spurs could offer Kirilenko $6M through a classic signing and $6.6M through a S&T.
Bruno I got it from another forum
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AodNvAy3ZYZmdDRGZHQ2b2c5M3dZaktPMXlGV0V1d nc&gid=29
Does it seem correct to you ?
Bruno
07-10-2013, 11:16 AM
Bruno I got it from another forum
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AodNvAy3ZYZmdDRGZHQ2b2c5M3dZaktPMXlGV0V1d nc&gid=29
Does it seem correct to you ?
For contract that have been agreed in the last few days (Ginobili, Splitter, Belinelli and Pendergraph), these are just estimate contracts. What these players salary will really be will be close but not exactly that.
elemento
07-10-2013, 11:56 AM
Thanks Bruno that's what I thought. I really hope it's wrong :lol
Seventyniner
07-15-2013, 01:58 PM
Once the contract details for Splitter, Pendergraph, and Belinelli are determined, will there be a 2013-2014 version of this thread? I'm wondering if the Spurs will have enough expiring contracts that they're willing to move to help teams clear space for 2014 while preserving their own space for 2015. Or failling that, how much space the Spurs could potentially have in 2014 if they want to go that route. With Bonner, Diaw, Mills, and De Colo (de facto) expiring, there's potentially some flexibility to be had.
Bruno
07-15-2013, 03:22 PM
Once the contract details for Splitter, Pendergraph, and Belinelli are determined, will there be a 2013-2014 version of this thread? I'm wondering if the Spurs will have enough expiring contracts that they're willing to move to help teams clear space for 2014 while preserving their own space for 2015. Or failling that, how much space the Spurs could potentially have in 2014 if they want to go that route. With Bonner, Diaw, Mills, and De Colo (de facto) expiring, there's potentially some flexibility to be had.
There will have a 2013-2014 version of this thread when the contracts numbers will be available.
For some potential 2014 cap sapce, that's Spurs current situation for 2014-2015 assuming both Joseph and Leonard options will be picked up at the end of the training camp, Jean-Charles and the 2014 first round pick will be stashed overseas for the 2014-2015 season:
Parker: $12.5M
Duncan: $10M
Splitter: $8.8M
Ginobili: $7M
Green: $4M
Leonard: $2.9M
Belinelli: $2.9M
Joseph: $2M
Pendergraph: $1.8M
3 min salary roster cap hold: $1.5M
For a total of $53.4M.
The cap is projected to be at $62.1M, so Spurs would have $7.7M in cap space.
pad300
07-15-2013, 04:02 PM
There will have a 2013-2014 version of this thread when the contracts numbers will be available.
For some potential 2014 cap sapce, that's Spurs current situation for 2014-2015 assuming both Joseph and Leonard options will be picked up at the end of the training camp, Jean-Charles and the 2014 first round pick will be stashed overseas for the 2014-2015 season:
Parker: $12.5M
Duncan: $10M
Splitter: $8.8M
Ginobili: $7M
Green: $4M
Leonard: $2.9M
Belinelli: $2.9M
Joseph: $2M
Pendergraph: $1.8M
3 min salary roster cap hold: $1.5M
For a total of $53.4M.
The cap is projected to be at $62.1M, so Spurs would have $7.7M in cap space.
I take it you are assuming that we release the cap holds for Bonner, De Colo, etc, bird (and early bird) rights...
Bruno
07-15-2013, 04:08 PM
I take it you are assuming that we release the cap holds for Bonner, De Colo, etc, bird (and early bird) rights...
Yes, I am.
Seventyniner
07-15-2013, 04:38 PM
There will have a 2013-2014 version of this thread when the contracts numbers will be available.
For some potential 2014 cap sapce, that's Spurs current situation for 2014-2015 assuming both Joseph and Leonard options will be picked up at the end of the training camp, Jean-Charles and the 2014 first round pick will be stashed overseas for the 2014-2015 season:
Parker: $12.5M
Duncan: $10M
Splitter: $8.8M
Ginobili: $7M
Green: $4M
Leonard: $2.9M
Belinelli: $2.9M
Joseph: $2M
Pendergraph: $1.8M
3 min salary roster cap hold: $1.5M
For a total of $53.4M.
The cap is projected to be at $62.1M, so Spurs would have $7.7M in cap space.
A somewhat similar situation to this offseason, right? Diaw's cap hold will eat into some of that space assuming the Spurs want him back.
If the Spurs want more 2014 cap space, it will be somewhat difficult. The chances that any of the top 6 get traded are from very slim to none. The only way to make more otherwise would be to trade Belinelli, Pendergraph, or Joseph. The problem with trading the first two is that if they do well, the Spurs would like to keep them and if they do poorly, they'll be hard to dump.
coyotes_geek
07-16-2013, 09:40 AM
$7.7 in cap space isn't anything to get excited about TBH. BAE + MLE is $7.3m and the Spurs wouldn't have to give up rights to Diaw/Bonner/Decolo to use those.
Not to mention the Spurs are going to have Leonard's extention to deal with next offseason, and probably even one for Parker. Going to be a busy offseason.
ace3g
07-18-2013, 06:35 PM
http://www.hoopsworld.com/san-antonio-spurs-team-salary
monkeypunk
07-18-2013, 07:30 PM
http://www.hoopsworld.com/san-antonio-spurs-team-salary
Timmy with the no-trade-clause, :lol.
Bruno
07-19-2013, 01:58 AM
http://www.hoopsworld.com/san-antonio-spurs-team-salary
Nice. Thanks for posting it. :tu
In addition with Spurs giving only 2 years contracts to Belinelli and Pendergraph, the way Splitter's contract is structured really show how Spurs are committed to that 2015 cap space. I don't know what kind a free agent Spurs will be able to attract but they surely will have a lot of money to offer.
It's also noteworthy that Splitter got a 15% max trade kicker. It would make a Splitter trade considerably more difficult to do.
Chinook
07-19-2013, 02:34 AM
$7.7 in cap space isn't anything to get excited about TBH. BAE + MLE is $7.3m and the Spurs wouldn't have to give up rights to Diaw/Bonner/Decolo to use those.
Not to mention the Spurs are going to have Leonard's extention to deal with next offseason, and probably even one for Parker. Going to be a busy offseason.
The extensions probably won't come into play, since they won't affect next year's cap. If the team wants, they can extend Parker now. Leonard's deal will probably need some negotiating, but the team can certainly get that done while looking for other targets. Also factoring in that Belinelli and Pendergraph aren't locks to come back (I think they're potential trade fodder starting December 15th), the team will have a lot of cap flexibility if they want it. However, I agree it's unlikely, as Neal getting re-signed would eat into the cap a lot, and the team will probably try to keep both Diaw and De Colo if they don't trade him this season.
Chinook
07-19-2013, 02:48 AM
The Spurs look like they'll be able to keep their young potential core of Parker/Green/Leonard/Splitter together while being able to re-sign Diaw and Joseph and still have enough money for a near-max free agent. They could probably bring their European prospect over and still have seven figures to offer. I don't like the free-agent class all that much, though. I think they'll probably have to trade for someone like Horford.
Captivus
07-20-2013, 06:50 PM
Cap goes up in time, so higher salary at the end of the contract is better.
Seventyniner
07-21-2013, 11:42 AM
Why did the Spurs give decreasing deals to Splitter and Ginobili but not Belinelli and Pendergraph?
Chinook
07-21-2013, 08:36 PM
Splitter because they want the most cap space in 2015. Ginobili perhaps to offset Beli and Pendergraph because they expect to be near the tax next season.
SpursDynasty21
07-29-2013, 11:12 AM
The Spurs should sign Leonard long-term, because he's the future of the team. I think he's the player to build around moving forward.
Mel_13
07-29-2013, 11:31 AM
Why did the Spurs give decreasing deals to Splitter and Ginobili but not Belinelli and Pendergraph?
Belinelli and Pendergraph were signed with the MLE. Their combined salaries leave enough room to sign a second round pick or an undrafted rookie to a 3 or 4 year deal similar to the contracts that just expired for Neal and Blair. If they signed decreasing deals, there wouldn't be enough room to sign a player for the remainder of the MLE before the start of the season..
The Spurs should sign Leonard long-term, because he's the future of the team. I think he's the player to build around moving forward.
That's certainly the plan, but Leonard can't sign a contract extension any earlier than next summer.
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