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Winehole23
09-02-2012, 09:11 AM
Hasegawa - who was born in Japan and has taught in the United States since 1990, and who reads English, Japanese, and Russian - rejects both the traditional and revisionist positions. According to his close examination of the evidence, Japan was not poised to surrender before Hiroshima, as the revisionists argued, nor was it ready to give in immediately after the atomic bomb, as traditionalists have always seen it. Instead, it took the Soviet declaration of war on Japan, several days after Hiroshima, to bring the capitulation.



Both the American and Japanese public have clung to the idea that the mushroom clouds ended the war. For the Japanese, Hiroshima is a potent symbol of their nation as victim, helping obscure their role as the aggressors and in atrocities that include mass rapes and beheading prisoners of war. For the Americans, Hiroshima has always been a means justified by the end.



“This seems to touch a nerve,” observes Hasegawa.



That may help explain why Hasegawa’s thesis, which he first detailed in an award-winning 2005 book and has continued to bolster with new material, is still little known outside of academic circles, says Ward Wilson, a nuclear weapons scholar who has drawn on Hasegawa’s insights in his own recent work. Measured against the decades of serious and settled thinking about World War II, Hasegawa’s scholarship feels radical. But another reason, Wilson argues, is that to look at history in this new light is to entertain what seem like shocking ideas. That the destruction of cities does not sway leaders. That what happened in Hiroshima and Nagasaki was not overly remarkable. And, strangest of all: That nuclear explosives may not be particularly effective weapons of war.



The Pacific War began in 1941 with the violent humiliation at Pearl Harbor. Japan already held parts of China, and quickly invaded New Guinea, the Dutch East Indies, Burma, and Singapore. Manila fell. The country enjoyed air supremacy across most of Southeast Asia; in February 1942, it even attacked Australia. Japan’s control was tightening, and it appeared unstoppable.



After the epic Battle of Midway in the summer of 1942, however, the United States and its allies gained the momentum. Still, progress was slow as Marines hopped from atoll to island to atoll: wading through bloody coral shallows under a rain of shelling, engaging an enemy that was dug in, highly trained, and willing to fight to the death. The names of these tropical hells - Gaudalcanal, Iwo Jima, Okinawa - have become Marine Corps legend. The casualties were heavy.



By the summer of 1945, the Americans had cornered Japan and assembled a final invasion plan, codenamed Operation Downfall. The first stage was scheduled for the fall, and would have opened with the landing of more than 700,000 troops on Kyushu, the southernmost of the big four islands. It would have been a larger operation than D-Day, certain to result in a bloody slaughter.



Americans, then and today, have tended to assume that Japan’s leaders were simply blinded by their own fanaticism, forcing a catastrophic showdown for no reason other than their refusal to acknowledge defeat. This was, after all, a nation that trained its young men to fly their planes, freighted with explosives, into the side of American naval vessels.




But Hasegawa and other historians have shown that Japan’s leaders were in fact quite savvy, well aware of their difficult position, and holding out for strategic reasons. Their concern was not so much whether to end the conflict, but how to end it while holding onto territory, avoiding war crimes trials, and preserving the imperial system. The Japanese could still inflict heavy casualties on any invader, and they hoped to convince the Soviet Union, still neutral in the Asian theater, to mediate a settlement with the Americans. Stalin, they calculated, might negotiate more favorable terms in exchange for territory in Asia. It was a long shot, but it made strategic sense.



On Aug. 6, the American bomber Enola Gay dropped its payload on Hiroshima, leaving the signature mushroom cloud and devastation on the ground, including something on the order of 100,000 killed. (The figures remain disputed, and depend on how the fatalities are counted.)

As Hasegawa writes in his book “Racing the Enemy,” the Japanese leadership reacted with concern, but not panic. On Aug. 7, Foreign Minister Shigenori Togo sent an urgent coded telegram to his ambassador in Moscow, asking him to press for a response to the Japanese request for mediation, which the Soviets had yet to provide. The bombing added a “sense of urgency,” Hasegawa says, but the plan remained the same.



Very late the next night, however, something happened that did change the plan. The Soviet Union declared war and launched a broad surprise attack on Japanese forces in Manchuria. In that instant, Japan’s strategy was ruined. Stalin would not be extracting concessions from the Americans. And the approaching Red Army brought new concerns: The military position was more dire, and it was hard to imagine occupying communists allowing Japan’s traditional imperial system to continue. Better to surrender to Washington than to Moscow.



By the morning of Aug. 9, the Japanese Supreme War Council was meeting to discuss the terms of surrender. (During the meeting, the second atomic bomb killed tens of thousands at Nagasaki.) On Aug. 15, the Japanese surrendered unconditionally.



How is it possible that the Japanese leadership did not react more strongly to many tens of thousands of its citizens being obliterated?

One answer is that the Japanese leaders were not greatly troubled by civilian causalities. As the Allies loomed, the Japanese people were instructed to sharpen bamboo sticks and prepare to meet the Marines at the beach.



Yet it was more than callousness. The bomb - horrific as it was - was not as special as Americans have always imagined. In early March, several hundred B-29 Super Fortress bombers dropped incendiary bombs on downtown Tokyo. Some argue that more died in the resulting firestorm than at Hiroshima. People were boiled in the canals. The photos of charred Tokyo and charred Hiroshima are indistinguishable.




In fact, more than 60 of Japan’s cities had been substantially destroyed by the time of the Hiroshima attack, according to a 2007 International Security article by Wilson, who is a senior fellow at the Center for Nonproliferation Studies at the Monterey Institute of International Studies. In the three weeks before Hiroshima, Wilson writes, 25 cities were heavily bombed.

To us, then, Hiroshima was unique, and the move to atomic weaponry was a great leap, military and moral. But Hasegawa argues the change was incremental. “Once we had accepted strategic bombing as an acceptable weapon of war, the atomic bomb was a very small step,” he says. To Japan’s leaders, Hiroshima was yet another population center leveled, albeit in a novel way. If they didn’t surrender after Tokyo, they weren’t going to after Hiroshima.

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2011/08/07/why_did_japan_surrender/?page=full

Latarian Milton
09-02-2012, 09:43 AM
another proof why russians are just a shitload of assholes and are a shame to all christianity adherents, the war in europe was ended like several months before them declaring war on japan. had the commies declared war a bit earlier, they would've been no need to drop the atom bombs which claimed millions of innocent lives

at the start of the war Germans launched the blitz against poland and captured the entire country in about a month of time, while the russians watched all these happening w/o doing a damn thing, sticking to the so-called appeasement policy until getting their own asses burned by German fire

Winehole23
09-02-2012, 09:44 AM
mebbe so. I'm no historian like yourself.

Slomo
09-02-2012, 09:51 AM
another proof why russians are just a shitload of assholes and are a shame to all christianity adherents, the war in europe was ended like several months before them declaring war on japan. had the commies declared war a bit earlier, they would've been no need to drop the atom bombs which claimed millions of innocent lives

at the start of the war Germans launched the blitz against poland and captured the entire country in about a month of time, while the russians watched all these happening w/o doing a damn thing, sticking to the so-called appeasement policy until getting their own asses burned by German fire

Wrong. The Russian had actually signed a pact with the Nazis, that's why they did nothing. Under that pact they were entitled to a piece of Poland and if memory serves they got it. The Nazis broke that pact when they attacked Russia.

As for the Russians declaring the war on Japan, they had that obligation and hesitated because they were pretty much exhausted (most casualties of any of the allies). Which also means that it's questionable if they would have ever opened a real front against Japan. No excuse, just putting it into perspective.

The Reckoning
09-02-2012, 10:09 AM
Wrong. The Russian had actually signed a pact with the Nazis, that's why they did nothing. Under that pact they were entitled to a piece of Poland and if memory serves they got it. The Nazis broke that pact when they attacked Russia.

As for the Russians declaring the war on Japan, they had that obligation and hesitated because they were pretty much exhausted (most casualties of any of the allies). Which also means that it's questionable if they would have ever opened a real front against Japan. No excuse, just putting it into perspective.



to be fair, the russians were keen on grabbing as much territory from the japanese as possible.

my "uncle" was there when the US and russian armies met up, and he said they were very close to shelling each other because of the madhouse land grab at the end of the war.

i doubt the russians would ever invade the japanese homeland, but manchuria/korea was fair game.

Cane
09-02-2012, 10:21 AM
Tbh thought it was readily accepted that it took the crazy Japs two nukes, firebombings, and a Russian invasion before surrendering. Mmm fried rice

Slomo
09-02-2012, 11:24 AM
to be fair, the russians were keen on grabbing as much territory from the japanese as possible.

my "uncle" was there when the US and russian armies met up, and he said they were very close to shelling each other because of the madhouse land grab at the end of the war.

i doubt the russians would ever invade the japanese homeland, but manchuria/korea was fair game.

Absolutely, but I see it as quite opportunistic in nature, not really the full fledged front the US wanted/needed. The situation was quite similar in Europe and the meeting of the US and Russian armies was very tense.

mavs>spurs
09-02-2012, 01:00 PM
We should all just be thankful that the Germans broke that pact and attacked the Russians, then made the mistake of bogging themselves down in the Russian tundra in the middle of winter. And the fact that the Japs attacked pearl harbor...had Hitler played his cards right and tackled everyone one by one, he probably would have conquered most of the world.

Agloco
09-02-2012, 02:12 PM
So we can thank the Russians for not having to unload another nuclear payload over Japan?

Wild Cobra
09-02-2012, 04:14 PM
What is the point of this history lesson?

Bartleby
09-02-2012, 05:02 PM
What is the point of any history lesson?

Sec24Row7
09-02-2012, 06:34 PM
The Russians declared war on Japan just so they could have a seat at the negotiating table and get territory...

Japan didn't surrender because of them... lol

That's stupid.

xeromass
09-02-2012, 06:47 PM
@mavs
Yup, it sounds cruel, but bombing Pearl Harbor is probably the best thing Japan ever did. For them, for USA and for the world.

CosmicCowboy
09-02-2012, 07:47 PM
The Russians declared war on Japan just so they could have a seat at the negotiating table and get territory...

Japan didn't surrender because of them... lol

That's stupid.

no shit.

z0sa
09-02-2012, 11:13 PM
We should all just be thankful that the Germans broke that pact and attacked the Russians, then made the mistake of bogging themselves down in the Russian tundra in the middle of winter. And the fact that the Japs attacked pearl harbor...had Hitler played his cards right and tackled everyone one by one, he probably would have conquered most of the world.

Hitler planned war from a very early time, before he even had consolidated power. He actually intended to start it in 1944-45 IIRC, which would have given his scientists/engineers/populace more time to build many more better, larger planes and heavier tanks, but basically felt he was getting older and well, being the insane fuck he was thought he could go any day and wanted his name down in the history books already. I read this in a book a long time ago so I don't have a source but I can vouch for it

diego
09-02-2012, 11:58 PM
I lived for a while in China and I picked up on their japan hate after learning of their war crimes. Still, when I visited japan, and went to hiroshima, it really got to me. What is terrible about the nuke vs carpeting incendiary bombs which are probably more lethal as an attack is that the nuke keeps killing long after the initial attack. civilians didnt know what was going on because they were occupied and they even go so far as to accuse the US "medical aid" to be a science experiment and not treatment (I never verified that, just recounting the museum exhibit).

they had a model of the epicenter, before and after; the bomb was supposed to take out a bridge. It was slightly off target and hit almost exactly on the city prefecture, wiping out 99% of the buildings in the area... but the bridge didnt go down.

as for the need to use it... japan was fucked at that point, they were sealed off and traditional bombs could have been used to pressure them. for all the US knew they could have created a mutant zombie outbreak, it was pretty fucking irresponsible if you ask me. of course, a deterrent was created, but that's another topic...

ElNono
09-03-2012, 12:02 AM
Japan didn't surrender, they just planned ahead, tbh... after pretending to 'surrender' they started building Toyota trucks and Sony walkmans and took over the US market... never underestimate those japs, IMO.

MannyIsGod
09-03-2012, 01:04 AM
@mavs
Yup, it sounds cruel, but bombing Pearl Harbor is probably the best thing Japan ever did. For them, for USA and for the world.

The US was going to get In WW2 with or without the Japanese attack.

MannyIsGod
09-03-2012, 01:10 AM
@mavs
Yup, it sounds cruel, but bombing Pearl Harbor is probably the best thing Japan ever did. For them, for USA and for the world.


I lived for a while in China and I picked up on their japan hate after learning of their war crimes. Still, when I visited japan, and went to hiroshima, it really got to me. What is terrible about the nuke vs carpeting incendiary bombs which are probably more lethal as an attack is that the nuke keeps killing long after the initial attack. civilians didnt know what was going on because they were occupied and they even go so far as to accuse the US "medical aid" to be a science experiment and not treatment (I never verified that, just recounting the museum exhibit).

they had a model of the epicenter, before and after; the bomb was supposed to take out a bridge. It was slightly off target and hit almost exactly on the city prefecture, wiping out 99% of the buildings in the area... but the bridge didnt go down.

as for the need to use it... japan was fucked at that point, they were sealed off and traditional bombs could have been used to pressure them. for all the US knew they could have created a mutant zombie outbreak, it was pretty fucking irresponsible if you ask me. of course, a deterrent was created, but that's another topic...

I think that the US use of the bomb is effectively terrorism but all bets are off - IMO - when you bomb a country by surprise and start a war. I don't really have a problem with the bomb's use although I do think its possible the war could have been ended without its use or without an invasion. I do think that its use may have had a part in the act that the US and USSR never blew the world to shit.

I also don't think there was any danger or irresponsibility in its use. US scientists were pretty damn sure there wasn't going to be "mutant zombie" outbreak. WTF?

Wild Cobra
09-03-2012, 02:10 AM
I think this useless revised history are the pacifists trying to tell us that we didn't need to use "the bomb." I have very, very little doubt, that "the bomb" made the difference, and ended the war.

mercos
09-03-2012, 02:28 AM
I too, believe the bomb was necessary. Regardless of what the Japanese were doing behind closed doors, the Truman administration had no way of knowing what they were planning. The fighting up until that point had been long and bloody, and the choice presented to Truman was either use the bomb, or send in more troops to die.

101A
09-04-2012, 07:33 AM
Wrong. The Russian had actually signed a pact with the Nazis, that's why they did nothing. Under that pact they were entitled to a piece of Poland and if memory serves they got it. The Nazis broke that pact when they attacked Russia.

As for the Russians declaring the war on Japan, they had that obligation and hesitated because they were pretty much exhausted (most casualties of any of the allies). Which also means that it's questionable if they would have ever opened a real front against Japan. No excuse, just putting it into perspective.

The Soviets not only didn't give a crap about Poland; they were carrying on their own extermination of any vestige of Polish leadership/intelligence. They summarily executed Pole after Pole (march 'em into a room; couple shots to the back of the head). Some 15,000 +/-. Only admitted to it after the Soviet fall.

Winehole23
09-04-2012, 07:39 AM
I think this useless revised history are the pacifists trying to tell us that we didn't need to use "the bomb."I didn't get that. Is there some particular passage in the text that indicates that for you?

Winehole23
09-04-2012, 07:42 AM
What is the point of any history lesson?Dunno. Maybe that history can be more complicated than we give it credit for?

The argument is probably overdrawn. Was startling and counterintuitive to me and so, interesting on that count. Subtlety is seldom newsworthy, still less Sunday morning armchair historian newsworthy.

Latarian Milton
09-04-2012, 09:24 AM
We should all just be thankful that the Germans broke that pact and attacked the Russians, then made the mistake of bogging themselves down in the Russian tundra in the middle of winter. And the fact that the Japs attacked pearl harbor...had Hitler played his cards right and tackled everyone one by one, he probably would have conquered most of the world.

you believe the world is much better than it would've otherwise been had hitler ruled most of it? you get negative to moderate answers from all the world's population except maybe the very minority of yids and commies imho.

japs attacking pearl harbor was a strategic mistake imho and it turned the whole momentum around. they convinced the US people to accept the proposal of getting their country into the damn war, which the US politicians could've never done by themselves

TeyshaBlue
09-04-2012, 09:30 AM
I also don't think there was any danger or irresponsibility in its use. US scientists were pretty damn sure there wasn't going to be "mutant zombie" outbreak. WTF?

I've read, fairly extensively, on the subject of the US nuclear program. The US scientists, by large, were pretty damn uncertain what the fuck was going to happen other than a big ass explosion.

Two of the best books I've read on the subject: Day of Trinity http://books.google.com/books/about/Day_of_Trinity.html?id=ASRDAAAAIAAJ

It's a great read with a few technical issues that are very minor.

The Making of the Atomic Bomb.
read: http://books.google.com/books/about/The_Making_of_the_Atomic_Bomb.html?id=aSgFMMNQ6G4C


Both are very well written and move briskly.

CosmicCowboy
09-04-2012, 09:44 AM
Personally, I am glad they used the bomb as I probably wouldn't be here if they hadn't. Japan was damn well determined to defend against the invasion of the mainland to the last man...(hell just look at the carnage on the pacific islands leading up to the invasion for an example) They were anticipating over a million deaths on an invasion. My dad was a Corsair pilot flying missions over Japan from Okinawa at the end and they were getting the shit shot out of them from ground fire. They were patching boocoo bullet/shrapnel holes after every mission. Dad always said he was sure he would have eventually been killed if they hadn't used the bomb and he had to go through with the invasion.

Latarian Milton
09-04-2012, 09:48 AM
I think that the US use of the bomb is effectively terrorism but all bets are off - IMO - when you bomb a country by surprise and start a war. I don't really have a problem with the bomb's use although I do think its possible the war could have been ended without its use or without an invasion. I do think that its use may have had a part in the act that the US and USSR never blew the world to shit.

I also don't think there was any danger or irresponsibility in its use. US scientists were pretty damn sure there wasn't going to be "mutant zombie" outbreak. WTF?

US ain't the right nation for them yellows to fuck with and if they ever dare to do it, we gonna make them pay. Japs should've never raided the pearl harbor in the first place. US never wanted to do them chinks such a favor by declaring war against japs, but between helping the chinks and becoming gutless pussies ourselves, we chose the former one.

US never wanted them innocent japs killed in the big bangs, that sounds cruel but still nothing comparable to the crimes committed by japanese soldiers who killed people for fun tbh. yall chinks would've been born japanese if the US never joined the war, and that's maybe what you guys would prefer over being born as chinks but you're fucking fooling yourselves if you believe the fascists would treat you all equally as those who wear towels as pants tbh

EVAY
09-04-2012, 10:47 AM
There seems to be a confusion of issues here:

1) Did the nuclear bombs singularly cause the surrender of Japan?

Possibly not, but it has to have been a consideration. The timing of the surrender after the Russian War announcement does not definitively indicate that as the causal predicate either.

There was a massive internal argument going on in the Japanese power structure regarding the wisdom of surrender. That discussion was ongoing
after the nuclear bombs were dropped, and the timing of that discussion being finished by the Emperor's fiat does not necessarily imply that the Russian War announcement was the determinant factor.

2) Should the U.S. have used the bomb?

Almost certainly, imo. Both the Iwo Jima and Okinawa campaigns were so much more brutal than anything the U.S. military hierarchy had imagined in terms of casualties that failure to use whatever means necessary to mitigate the loss of American lives (which was, after all, the responsibility of the American hierarchy) was a moral imperative.

The mitigation of Japanese casualties was the responsiblity of Japan's hierarchy, and was ultimately the basis for the decision to surrender.

EVAY
09-04-2012, 10:55 AM
I've read, fairly extensively, on the subject of the US nuclear program. The US scientists, by large, were pretty damn uncertain what the fuck was going to happen other than a big ass explosion.

Two of the best books I've read on the subject: Day of Trinity http://books.google.com/books/about/Day_of_Trinity.html?id=ASRDAAAAIAAJ

It's a great read with a few technical issues that are very minor.

The Making of the Atomic Bomb.
read: http://books.google.com/books/about/The_Making_of_the_Atomic_Bomb.html?id=aSgFMMNQ6G4C




Both are very well written and move briskly.

Agreed. I also read Day of Trinity.

I think it is a mistake to view the decision to use the bomb as if people knew then what we know now about the effects. As you indicated, TB, at least some of the scientists were afraid that we might set the entire atmosphere of the Earth ablaze and kill off the entire planet! Sort of like the fears that surfaced regarding the super-conductor in Switzerland...sometimes people just aren't sure.

But when the decision comes down to saving American and Japanese lives by obviating the need for an invasion, I think that latter-day assumptions are certainly no better than the at-the-time assumptions.

boutons_deux
09-04-2012, 11:01 AM
"saving American and Japanese"

having fire-bombed dozens of civilians, aka non-combattant, centers in Japan (and Germany) before the nukes, the Americans were clearly not concerned about saving Japanese lives.

EVAY
09-04-2012, 11:07 AM
"saving American and Japanese"

having fire-bombed dozens of civilians, aka non-combattant, centers in Japan (and Germany) before the nukes, the Americans were clearly not concerned about saving Japanese lives.

I'm not saying they were...not even sure it was their job to save Japanese lives (see comments above), but the fact that more Japanese would have died in the case of an invasion than died as a result of the two nuclear bombs is arguably true.

Nothing is certain, but the Japanese civilian behavior on Okinawa and the preparations by the Japanese for home-guard type defenses in the case of invasion, certainly makes a decent argument for the case that more Japanese lives would have been lost in an invasion.

CosmicCowboy
09-04-2012, 11:44 AM
"saving American and Japanese"

having fire-bombed dozens of civilians, aka non-combattant, centers in Japan (and Germany) before the nukes, the Americans were clearly not concerned about saving Japanese lives.

We fire bombed white people too.

diego
09-04-2012, 10:51 PM
I'm not saying they were...not even sure it was their job to save Japanese lives (see comments above), but the fact that more Japanese would have died in the case of an invasion than died as a result of the two nuclear bombs is arguably true.

Nothing is certain, but the Japanese civilian behavior on Okinawa and the preparations by the Japanese for home-guard type defenses in the case of invasion, certainly makes a decent argument for the case that more Japanese lives would have been lost in an invasion.

Japan back then, even civilian Japan, you can make a pretty good argument that they deserved to be flattened. The Japanese military is one of the worst in terms of war crimes, ever.

But really, my point is more about the lingering effects of a nuke. A decade later babies were still paying for a conflict they had absolutely nothing to do with, IMO that makes it much different than say Dresden or what any of the allied cities casualties.

And of course I was being silly talking mutant zombies, but there was definitely uncertainty about the fallout. I think high altitude fire bombing would have been even more devastating to the japs in terms of damage and casualties, though it wouldnt have had the same effect on everyone else going forward.