Chicago teachers strike

[CosmicCowboy]

http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/ARC7tpuSMecRAOcdM9B3OA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9aW5zZXQ7aD0zMjA7cT04NTt3PTUxMg--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/theatlanticwire/26_000_Chicago_Teachers_Will_Strike-cbb0a3de2b8490294b223f8c70909c3f

The average teacher salary in Chicago is $76,000 before benefits, while the average family in Chicago earns $47,000. The teachers rejected a 16% increase over 4 years. They only pay 3% of their own healthcare costs. For every new dollar set aside for public education in Illinois, .71 is set aside for teacher retirement costs. And what are they getting for that investment? Only 15% of fourth graders read at a fouth grade level, and 56% of students entering 9th grade wind up graduating high school.

They also get all major holidays and three months off in the summer.

What the fuck are they thinking?

[coyotes_geek]

They're thinking that they've got the City of Chicago by the shorthairs. They're probably right too.

[johnsmith]

I'm not sure what they're thinking, but I'm thinking that the two women, front and center in the photo, fucking disgust me.

[johnsmith]

Look at that fucking meathook on the lady in the front right corner.....Jesus fucking Christ.....you sure this isn't the Milwaukee Teachers Union that is photo'd?

[johnsmith]

And how about Coco there in the middle? She looks like the leader of the sea people in the Phantom Menace movie.

[johnsmith]

No question that starvation is not a tool in their strike.

[TeyshaBlue]

First off., $76k aint that much in Chicago.

Second, the 47k median is meaningless in the context of high unemployment.

Third. No teachers get three months off in the summer. None. And virtually everyone gets major holidays off.

Fourth...Teacher retirement figures need to be put in context....Teachers are generally ineligible for SS benefits.

Fifth...you are linking student performance entirely to teacher performance. Not a particularly bright notion.

What the fuck are you thinking?


All that aside, I find the thought of public teachers striking as particularly abhorrent. If the 16% figure is correct, then they are idiots for turning it down. When I was teaching, I wan't doing it for the fantastic salary. They shouldn't be either.

[CosmicCowboy]

First off., $76k aint that much in Chicago.

Second, the 47k median is meaningless in the context of high unemployment.

Third. No teachers get three months off in the summer. None. And virtually everyone gets major holidays off.

Fourth...Teacher retirement figures need to be put in context....Teachers are generally ineligible for SS benefits.

Fifth...you are linking student performance entirely to teacher performance. Not a particularly bright notion.

What the fuck are you thinking?


All that aside, I find the thought of public teachers striking as particularly abhorrent. If the 16% figure is correct, then they are idiots for turning it down. When I was teaching, I wan't doing it for the fantastic salary. They shouldn't be either.

Oh, granted they probably have some pretty suckass kids to work with. And yes, I rounded up from 2 1/2 months to 3 months.

As for the holidays, most people get a day or two at most for Christmas/New Years, not 2 weeks plus.

Still looks like a damn good package.

Still, when you are spending $13,000 a student those results suck pretty bad.

[johnsmith]

You guys are both missing the point.....look at those women. They deserve nothing!

[TeyshaBlue]

That 13k is broken out how? that all salary?

Two week Christmas breaks were going away when we were in HS, CC. Of course, back then tablulating and calculating semester grades were a pain in the ass...what with having to chisle the grades in stone tablets and all that.
Now, it's what, maybe a week? Just looked at my kids's school calendar. Yep. One week.

[TeyshaBlue]

You guys are both missing the point.....look at those women. They deserve nothing!

You're obsessed with homely women. Go get you one of your own!:nope:rollin

[coyotes_geek]

The Chicago school system faces a $667 million deficit this year, which will balloon to nearly $1 billion by next year.

[johnsmith]

You're obsessed with homely women. Go get you one of your own!:nope:rollin

No, not obsessed, just particularly disgusted by the wildabeasts that are in that photo.

Couldn't the photographer found a less obese group in the crowd?

[TeyshaBlue]

The Chicago school system faces a $667 million deficit this year, which will balloon to nearly $1 billion by next year.

They are hardly unique. But it is Chicago. They have their own, unique inability to get things done.

[TeyshaBlue]

No, not obsessed, just particularly disgusted by the wildabeasts that are in that photo.

Couldn't the photographer found a less obese group in the crowd?

Embrace it. You loves you some homely gals.

[clambake]

its that deep dish pizza.

[CosmicCowboy]

That 13k is broken out how? that all salary?

Two week Christmas breaks were going away when we were in HS, CC. Of course, back then tablulating and calculating semester grades were a pain in the ass...what with having to chisle the grades in stone tablets and all that.
Now, it's what, maybe a week? Just looked at my kids's school calendar. Yep. One week.

Checking the district I live in it appears to still be two consecutive weeks for Christmas/New Years.

http://www.neisd.net/calendars/FINAL%20Traditional%20Red,%20White,%20Blue%20Calen dar%20for%202012-2013.pdf

[TeyshaBlue]

Checking the district I live in it appears to still be two consecutive weeks for Christmas/New Years.

http://www.neisd.net/calendars/FINAL%20Traditional%20Red,%20White,%20Blue%20Calen dar%20for%202012-2013.pdf

Probably need to have the city look into that.:blah

[johnsmith]

Embrace it. You loves you some homely gals.

I'm on to you here TB....I'm not going to let you trick me into this!

[101A]

From the Bureau of Labor Statistics - a study published in '08.

Teachers work fewer hours than other workers per week (and this is NOT counting Summer/Longer X-Mas).

Report (https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/249299-bls-teachers-work-patterns.html)

AND teachers/education majors continue to get even dumber (anecdotal evidence to follow)

Education department at the University my wife teaches at NO LONGER wants ed. majors to have to take Chemistry from the Chem. department. They want to develop their own "Chemistry for educators" course for THEIR very special students. They, of course, include science education majors in that. So, if they get your way, your child's science "teacher" might have never set foot in the science building at their university.

[boutons_deux]

Keep trashing teachers, keep underpaying them, our future depends on it.

You pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

the avg career of school teacher in TX is about the same as avg NFL player.

[TeyshaBlue]

You pay peanuts, you get monkeys.


Which is why CEO's make the big money!http://homerecording.com/bbs/images/smilies/facepalm.gif

[boutons_deux]

Which is why CEO's make the big money!http://homerecording.com/bbs/images/smilies/facepalm.gif

TB :lol

[TeyshaBlue]

Not my fault you are unfamiliar with logic. Make asinine sweeping generalizations and you'll usually have to wear 'em.

[coyotes_geek]

Keep trashing teachers, keep underpaying them, our future depends on it.

You pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

the avg career of school teacher in TX is about the same as avg NFL player.

$76k before benefits is peanuts???

[DeadlyDynasty]

its that deep dish pizza.
:lol

[boutons_deux]

$76k before benefits is peanuts???

http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/layoutscripts/swzl_selectjob.aspx?txtKeyword=teacher&txtZipCode=San+Antonio%2C+TX

[coyotes_geek]

http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/layoutscripts/swzl_selectjob.aspx?txtKeyword=teacher&txtZipCode=San+Antonio%2C+TX


$76k before benefits is peanuts???

[MannyIsGod]

Here's the thing, aren't they just trying to get what the free market will pay them?

[CosmicCowboy]

Here's the thing, aren't they just trying to get what the free market will pay them?

:lmao:lmao:lmao

[boutons_deux]

After decades of the War on Employees and union busting, I'd love to see bully Rahm Emmanuel get bullied back and the teachers get 100% of their demands.

[Jacob1983]

I'd jizz my pants if I made 76k a year. I think most people in America would jizz the shit out of their pants if they made that much money a year especially if it was just teaching. Why are these Chicago teachers bitching? Yep, I said Chicago. I'm a racist now because I said Chicago.

[TeyshaBlue]

Here's the thing, aren't they just trying to get what the free market will pay them?

Not sure if srs.

[coyotes_geek]

Here's the thing, aren't they just trying to get what the free market will pay them?

This isn't a free market situation since it's a negotiation between two monopolies, government provider of public education and union provider of public education teachers. Neither party faces a free market threat of competition, let alone a threat of going out of business. Both parties are also playing with a third party's money, that being the taxpayers.

That being said, sure, the teachers are just trying to get what they can get. The tactic they've chosen to achieve those means is to hold hostage a child's education. Personally, that tactic doesn't sit well with me.

As for whether or not the teachers should get what they're asking for, the school district is already facing a $1 billion dollar budget shortfall, the teachers were already making double the national average (http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All_K-12_Teachers/Salary), and as CC noted in the OP, the percentage of 9th graders who make it to graduation is basically a coin flip. It's certainly fair to point out that teachers aren't solely responsible for that low graduation rate, but it's equally fair to ask what the taxpayers would be getting for their money? Is paying the teachers more going to have a benefit to someone other than the teachers?

[boutons_deux]

I'd jizz my pants if I made 76k a year.

http://www.infoplease.com/business/economy/cost-living-index-us-cities.html

http://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.us.htm

[MannyIsGod]

This isn't a free market situation since it's a negotiation between two monopolies, government provider of public education and union provider of public education teachers. Neither party faces a free market threat of competition, let alone a threat of going out of business. Both parties are also playing with a third party's money, that being the taxpayers.

That being said, sure, the teachers are just trying to get what they can get. The tactic they've chosen to achieve those means is to hold hostage a child's education. Personally, that tactic doesn't sit well with me.

As for whether or not the teachers should get what they're asking for, the school district is already facing a $1 billion dollar budget shortfall, the teachers were already making double the national average (http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All_K-12_Teachers/Salary), and as CC noted in the OP, the percentage of 9th graders who make it to graduation is basically a coin flip. It's certainly fair to point out that teachers aren't solely responsible for that low graduation rate, but it's equally fair to ask what the taxpayers would be getting for their money? Is paying the teachers more going to have a benefit to someone other than the teachers?

Monopolies are free market entities.

[coyotes_geek]

Incorrect. A monopoly is as anti-free market as it gets.

[MannyIsGod]

In any event, my points were just to point out some of the ridiculous inconsistencies that come with the public perception of these situations. When doctors or an organization like the AMA hold our health hostage is not viewed in the same way as what these teachers are doing. I personally think they're wrong but I do also think they're doing the same thing many corporations do on a daily basis which is flex their leverage as much as possible with little regard to the morality of the situation or the consequences outside of their gain.

When people here excuse an action by a company saying that their only looking out for their shareholders well I believe that the teachers are pretty much doing the same type of thing. I think its wrong in both scenarios.

[MannyIsGod]

Incorrect. A monopoly is as anti-free market as it gets.

Depends on who's defining free market, CG. If its absolutist such as Ann Raynd then its not. But its not like anyone up for major office cites her as a major influence. (I realize my argument is partially straw but it is mainly rhetorical)

[coyotes_geek]

In any event, my points were just to point out some of the ridiculous inconsistencies that come with the public perception of these situations. When doctors or an organization like the AMA hold our health hostage is not viewed in the same way as what these teachers are doing. I personally think they're wrong but I do also think they're doing the same thing many corporations do on a daily basis which is flex their leverage as much as possible with little regard to the morality of the situation or the consequences outside of their gain.

When people here excuse an action by a company saying that their only looking out for their shareholders well I believe that the teachers are pretty much doing the same type of thing. I think its wrong in both scenarios.

False equivalence. The AMA isn't a labor union, nor have doctors striked en-mass against the public.

[MannyIsGod]

Its not meant to be a perfect analogy. If you want to look past the forest for the trees then by all means.

[Wild Cobra]

I'm tired of how powerful the NEA is. Teachers are paid too much in many places. A quick search showed the the average police officer salary in Chicago is $66k. Why should teachers get paid more than someone who risks their life.

[Spurminator]

$76k before benefits is peanuts???

If I'm not mistaken, what they mean by "before benefits" is really "before deductions for benefits are factored in." And apparently they pay quite a bit more for health insurance than most.

[Spurminator]

I'm tired of how powerful the NEA is. Teachers are paid too much in many places. A quick search showed the the average police officer salary in Chicago is $66k. Why should teachers get paid more than someone who risks their life.

By that logic, why should lawyers get paid more than police officers?

[baseline bum]

I'd be pissed too if 40% of my evaluation was worthless standardised test scores of the students. That has to be completely soul-stealing to have to constantly teach the No Child Left Behind test questions that the students get absolutely nothing out of.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm tired of how powerful the NEA is. Teachers are paid too much in many places. A quick search showed the the average police officer salary in Chicago is $66k. Why should teachers get paid more than someone who risks their life.Do you make more than a Portland police officer, WC?

[Latarian Milton]

I'd jizz my pants if I made 76k a year. I think most people in America would jizz the shit out of their pants if they made that much money a year especially if it was just teaching. Why are these Chicago teachers bitching? Yep, I said Chicago. I'm a racist now because I said Chicago.

the presidential election is right around the corner and they know it's the right time to demand even more than what they've already got, greed is human's instinct and you never have too much money imho.

just another example why the education system is corrupted and a reform is urgently needed, while the majority of college graduates are either unemployed or underpaid, the teachers earn 76k a year on average and still not satisfied.

[Bill_Brasky]

76k ain't shit in Chicago.

[Cry Havoc]

I know several teachers in the Chicago area after living there for a couple of years. None of them make even CLOSE to $76k. That figure sounds pretty far out there, TBH.

[TDMVPDPOY]

I know several teachers in the Chicago area after living there for a couple of years. None of them make even CLOSE to $76k. That figure sounds pretty far out there, TBH.

private sector is where the money is

public sector is mainly KPI meeting targets and u get a promotion, if not u get kicked to the curb or sent into the shits of the country to teach...

[Nbadan]

I know several teachers in the Chicago area after living there for a couple of years. None of them make even CLOSE to $76k. That figure sounds pretty far out there, TBH.

No surprise there....the anti-education crowd has a nack for using Ryan-like facts to support their stupid claims..

[Jacob1983]

The public school system in America is pathetic in my opinion. It's a fuckin' joke in Texas. Texas public schools are all about getting the little peckers to pass their pressure standardized tests so undeserving teachers get bonuses from good test scores. The public school system in America would be better if schools actually taught kids life skills that they can use once they are out of high school like how to fill out a job application, make a resume, open a bank account, job interviewing, filling out other important life documents, how to fiend for yourself in this evil world, etc...

[baseline bum]

No surprise there....the anti-education crowd has a nack for using Ryan-like facts to support their stupid claims..

That number does sound like bullshit. The source seems to be John Fund from the National Review (http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/316395/chicago-bled-dry-striking-teachers-unions-john-fund#). Salary.com has the median income at about $54,000 for public school teachers in Chicago, with the top 10% at $70,000.

http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/Public-School-Teacher-Salary-Details-Chicago-IL.aspx

[Nbadan]

Salary.com has the median income at about $54,000 for public school teachers in Chicago, with the top 10% at $70,000.

How much would you expect to make with a Masters degree and/or after having worked at any profession for 30+ years Bum? Unlike other professions where there is bonus pay for over-achievers and promotions to a higher level position....the only way to make more money as a teacher is to get out of the classroom and become a specialist or an administrator...there are teachers who have been teaching in TX for close to 20 years who are the top of their game and still make less than 52K per year...not more than an average teacher....besides personal drive, which crashes hard in the face of 70+ hour work weeks, tyrannical principals, a mountain of paperwork, helicopter parents, and low to no-motivated students, where is the incentive to over achieve?

[Jacob1983]

Explain to me how standardized state tests help a kid be successful in life. How does that shit prepare them for real life? What types of skills do they get from standardized state tests?

[Nbadan]

Explain to me how standardized state tests help a kid be successful in life. How does that shit prepare them for real life? What types of skills do they get from standardized state tests?

Right now, how to take a test....although more states are adapting tests where students must be able to synthesize information they learn in class by using it in other ways, but it will be awhile before students can be adapted to think at this higher level...that said, politicians have very little patience...this is why almost every district in the country will fail AYP next year and be subject to state bureaucracy and school choice....its an impossible standard..

[Wild Cobra]

Do you make more than a Portland police officer, WC?
Probably, but I have skill sets they don't. Far more people can teach than have the skills that i have for my job.

Those who can, do. those who can't, teach.

[Nbadan]

Those who can, do. those who can't, teach.

Your an ass hat...you know nothing about teaching, teachers, or education in general..

[Wild Cobra]

Your an ass hat...you know nothing about teaching, teachers, or education in general..

It's a common saying. I though I would repeat it.

We have these teacher arguments here is Oregon too. Teacher get paid way to much for the job they do. There is nothing that special to teach kids Math, English, Science, etc, to warrant such exuberant wages and benefits.

[boutons_deux]

Why the Chicago Teachers Strike Is Really About Better Schools

But at its heart, the strike is over the union's deep opposition to what it calls a "corporate reform agenda" that pursues a competitive or punitive relationship with teachers, rather than a collaborative one. Examples include blaming teachers and unions for educational shortcomings, promoting private but publicly financed charter schools, focusing on high-stakes tests and tying pay to merit.

CTU has instead pushed for smaller classes, enriched curriculum, better supplies and facilities, fairer and fuller funding (including the return of some public revenue long diverted into " TIFs" to subsidize developers), more counselors and support staff, respect for teacher professionalism, and a bigger say for teachers in their schools.

That clash puts the union at odds with CPS, the mayor and President Obama--whose education secretary, Arne Duncan, boosted the corporate-reform agenda as former Mayor Richard M. Daley's school superintendent. It also represents a more forceful rejection of such reforms than espoused by the national union, which nonetheless supports the CTU strike.

http://www.alternet.org/education/why-chicago-teachers-strike-really-about-better-schools?akid=9371.187590.uR2Bc0&rd=1&src=newsletter708011&t=8

The strike is over much more than the mythical $76K.

The corporatization, privatization of school systems is part of the VRWC/ALEC agenda to destroy the teachers union as a scource of Dem funding and votes.

It's absolutely NOT about education.

[coyotes_geek]

That number does sound like bullshit. The source seems to be John Fund from the National Review (http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/316395/chicago-bled-dry-striking-teachers-unions-john-fund#). Salary.com has the median income at about $54,000 for public school teachers in Chicago, with the top 10% at $70,000.

http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/Public-School-Teacher-Salary-Details-Chicago-IL.aspx

FWIW...


By comparison, teachers in New York City earn an average of $73,751. That would be less than the average $76,000 average salary for Chicago teachers cited by CPS, but more than the $71,000 average cited by the union. Depending on which is accurate, Chicago would either be first or second in the nation in average teacher salary.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/06/12/how-much-do-chicago-public-school-teachers-make/

[101A]

How much would you expect to make with a Masters degree and/or after having worked at any profession for 30+ years Bum? Unlike other professions where there is bonus pay for over-achievers and promotions to a higher level position....the only way to make more money as a teacher is to get out of the classroom and become a specialist or an administrator...there are teachers who have been teaching in TX for close to 20 years who are the top of their game and still make less than 52K per year...not more than an average teacher....besides personal drive, which crashes hard in the face of 70+ hour work weeks, tyrannical principals, a mountain of paperwork, helicopter parents, and low to no-motivated students, where is the incentive to over achieve?

M.ed. <<<<<<< M. of anything else

Local district pays for students to get graduate degrees (Masters AND Ph.D.) from local University (serious quid pro quo mutually beneficial relationship there). Classes are a complete joke; profs openly talk about how their "Masters" level classes for teachers are less rigorous than their 101 classes for Freshmen. However, if they dare fail those teachers, the administration comes to talk to them about it. Run them through; cash the tuition checks from the School District.

[Homeland Security]

The public school system in America is pathetic in my opinion. It's a fuckin' joke in Texas. Texas public schools are all about getting the little peckers to pass their pressure standardized tests so undeserving teachers get bonuses from good test scores. The public school system in America would be better if schools actually taught kids life skills that they can use once they are out of high school like how to fill out a job application, make a resume, open a bank account, job interviewing, filling out other important life documents, how to fiend for yourself in this evil world, etc...
Most of the pathology in the American school system stems from the refusal to accept that blacks on average are one standard deviation less intelligent than whites, controlling for socioeconomic and cultural factors. Since they can't compete, we've set up this system to pretend that they can and throw resources at dragging as many across the line as we can.

There isn't really a solution; if it were just Hispanics we could teach them the skilled crafts and turn them loose to make $100K and send their kids to college. But with the low blacks, you have to throw so many resources at them just to make them competent to work at Subway. They'll always be a drag on society.

[Homeland Security]

That clash puts the union at odds with CPS, the mayor and President Obama--whose education secretary, Arne Duncan, boosted the corporate-reform agenda as former Mayor Richard M. Daley's school superintendent. It also represents a more forceful rejection of such reforms than espoused by the national union, which nonetheless supports the CTU strike.

...

The corporatization, privatization of school systems is part of the VRWC/ALEC agenda to destroy the teachers union as a scource of Dem funding and votes.
I know it's boutons and his dazzling 65 IQ, but I couldn't help but LOL at this assertion that the Obama Administration is part of a conspiracy to undermine Democratic funding and votes.

[TeyshaBlue]

It's a common saying. I though I would repeat it.

We have these teacher arguments here is Oregon too. Teacher get paid way to much for the job they do. There is nothing that special to teach kids Math, English, Science, etc, to warrant such exuberant wages and benefits.

There's alot of common sayings that are absolute bullshit. Yet, you seem to think this one's accurate. smh

[Latarian Milton]

The public school system in America is pathetic in my opinion. It's a fuckin' joke in Texas. Texas public schools are all about getting the little peckers to pass their pressure standardized tests so undeserving teachers get bonuses from good test scores. The public school system in America would be better if schools actually taught kids life skills that they can use once they are out of high school like how to fill out a job application, make a resume, open a bank account, job interviewing, filling out other important life documents, how to fiend for yourself in this evil world, etc...

your making some good point here imho and hope you aren't making the rant only to protest your personal remorse, but also the public suffering as well. the school system is fucked but i think it's the sector of colleges, rather than that of middle/high schools or elementary schools that takes the major brunt. hs kids are not supposed to be taught those advanced skills that you think should be useful in their lives cuz they're beyond kids' abilities to absorb at early ages and that's why they need to attend colleges after graduating from high schools rather than get dropped straightly into the cruel world.

colleges on the other hand are handing away degrees way too easily and there becoming more and more of a bridge for foreign students who want to immigrate to the US, or simply steal technologies from the US back to their countries. while most local students are often denied the chance to continue their studies due to the fact they can't afford the skyrocketing tuition, immigrants & foreigners are getting free-education plus maybe scholarships to help cover their living cost, and you know every fucking penny comes from American taxpayers

[coyotes_geek]

hs kids are not supposed to be taught those advanced skills that you think should be useful in their lives cuz they're beyond kids' abilities to absorb at early ages and that's why they need to attend colleges after graduating from high schools rather than get dropped straightly into the cruel world.

Couldn't disagree more. College isn't for everyone. I also strongly disagree that high school kids are incapable of absorbing knowledge about things like job interview skills and how to make a resume.

[Yonivore]

I am reminded...

Obama's Lost Annenberg Years Coming to Light (http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/08/obamas_lost_annenberg_years_co.html)


The cloak of media invisibility is slowly beginning to lift from Barack Obama's most important administrative leadership experience, helming an expensive educational reform effort in Chicago that failed to produce any measurable academic gains, according to the project's own final report (http://ccsr.uchicago.edu/downloads/p62.pdf).
I wonder how much of Obama's failure at the Chicago Annenberg Challenge affected the mess they have there today.

[Yonivore]

Couldn't disagree more. College isn't for everyone. I also strongly disagree that high school kids are incapable of absorbing knowledge about things like job interview skills and how to make a resume.
You might be interested in Mike Rowe's (of Dirty Jobs fame) effort to re-ignite interests in the trades.

He recently wrote an open letter (http://www.mikeroweworks.com/2012/09/the-first-four-years-are-the-hardest/) to Presidential candidate Mitt Romney, offering his assistance in renewing interest in the trades. At a time when unemployment is extremely high, there is a shortage of tradesmen; plumbers, electricians, pipe fitters, welders, etc...

In the letter, Rowe claims he wrote a similar letter to candidate Obama, in 2008, but never heard back. Apparently, Romney's staff has already established a relationship and is going to consult with Rowe, on this issue, in the future.

If you think Rowe is just some "celebutard" like Sean Penn or George Clooney, I suggest you watch Rowe's 20 minute presentation (http://www.ted.com/talks/mike_rowe_celebrates_dirty_jobs.html) on TED.com. He obviously has a passion for the true laborers and tradesmen in our society. His MikeRoweWORKS organization is dedicated to celebrating the trades and renewing interest, among the young, in choosing a career in the trades.

The video is entertaining so, if you like Mike Rowe's storytelling style, you'll get a kick out of it whether you agree with his point or not.

[Yonivore]

So, is there any support, in this forum, for the striking Chicago teachers?

The highest paid teachers, in the country, get their panties in a wad and go on strike because -- in a sucky economy -- their proposed raise was cut from 30% to 16% and they'll finally be subject to performance evaluations?

No sympathy here. If I were Godfather, I'd fire them all and hire new ones...I'm sure there are more than a few unemployed teachers, around the country, that would flock to Chicago for $76K a year (before benefits).

[coyotes_geek]

:tu

Good stuff!


Even as unemployment remains sky high, a whole category of vital occupations has fallen out of favor, and companies struggle to find workers with the necessary skills. The causes seem clear. We have embraced a ridiculously narrow view of education. Any kind of training or study that does not come with a four-year degree is now deemed “alternative.” Many viable careers once aspired to are now seen as “vocational consolation prizes,” and many of the jobs this current administration has tried to “create” over the last four years are the same jobs that parents and teachers actively discourage kids from pursuing. (I always thought there something ill-fated about the promise of three million “shovel ready jobs” made to a society that no longer encourages people to pick up a shovel.)

[baseline bum]

Thanks for sourcing the numbers, cg.

[baseline bum]

If Romney would actually get our schools to teach trades I would definitely vote for him. It's a system that works great for Germany where you have both academic and vocational tracks in secondary schools so that almost all students get something of value from their time spent there. A nice side effect is the academic track can be made more rigorous also. I hate the attitude in America that truck-driving, plumbing, construction, electrical, etc. should be beneath going to school and getting a desk job, so of course people get pissed if their kid isn't being taught to go to college.

Too bad Obama didn't follow Germany's lead on healthcare.

[Yonivore]

76k ain't shit in Chicago.
It ain't shit in New York, Los Angeles, or Philadelphia either but, still, Chicago is paid more; but, still, Chicago has an abysmal graduation rate; but, still, the average household income in Chicago is in the mid-40K's.

Fucking teacher's unions.

[Homeland Security]

If Romney would actually get our schools to teach trades I would definitely vote for him. It's a system that works great for Germany where you have both academic and vocational tracks in secondary schools so that almost all students get something of value from their time spent there. A nice side effect is the academic track can be made more rigorous also. I hate the attitude in America that truck-driving, plumbing, construction, electrical, etc. should be beneath going to school and getting a desk job, so of course people get pissed if their kid isn't being taught to go to college.

Too bad Obama didn't follow Germany's lead on healthcare.
Holy shit, we agree on something?

There is an enormous shortage of skilled tradesmen and has been for years. This is a residue both of the effeminization of the culture and the decline of the unions. Yeah, the unions probably dug their own graves, but they ran their own apprenticeship programs and nobody replaced them. There's no payback in businesses doing their own training because it's more cost-effective to let someone else do the training and then go poach.

Solid blue-collar work pays six figures if you work hard enough. That's certainly better than getting a degree in English, or anthropology, or womyn's studies, and then moving back to your old bedroom at your parents' house.

Plus, good-paying blue-collar jobs line up well with the zeitgeist of Mexican-American culture and place that group two generations away from social equality and being able to run the country.

[boutons_deux]

"Fucking teacher's unions."

don't be coy, PussyEater, you fuck ALL unions.

btw, all right-to-work states have lower avg hourly and benefits than other states, as the corporations always intended. Lower salaries means higher compensation for mgmt and investors. aka, The War on Employees (is over and employees lost)

[TeyshaBlue]

Wonder what the cost of living stats are like in those states?

[coyotes_geek]

That number does sound like bullshit. The source seems to be John Fund from the National Review (http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/316395/chicago-bled-dry-striking-teachers-unions-john-fund#). Salary.com has the median income at about $54,000 for public school teachers in Chicago, with the top 10% at $70,000.

http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/Public-School-Teacher-Salary-Details-Chicago-IL.aspx


If I'm not mistaken, what they mean by "before benefits" is really "before deductions for benefits are factored in." And apparently they pay quite a bit more for health insurance than most.

Finally figured all this out and looks like you're 100% right Spurm. BB, your info's good too. That $54k number is just salary but if you click over to the benefits tab there's a chart that shows salary as being 70% of total compensation. Take $54k, divide by 0.7 and you get $77k which is in the ballpark of the numbers from the link I posted. Still top notch compensation within the teaching profession, but not the $76k + goodies on top that I interpreted earlier. My mistake.


Thanks for sourcing the numbers, cg.

:toast

[TeyshaBlue]

Finally figured all this out and looks like you're 100% right Spurm. BB, your info's good too. That $54k number is just salary but if you click over to the benefits tab there's a chart that shows salary as being 70% of total compensation. Take $54k, divide by 0.7 and you get $77k which is in the ballpark of the numbers from the link I posted. Still top notch compensation within the teaching profession, but not the $76k + goodies on top that I interpreted earlier. My mistake.



:toast

You think you're pretty smart, huh?

[coyotes_geek]

You think you're pretty smart, huh?

Product of a public school education. :p:

[Spurminator]

Finally figured all this out and looks like you're 100% right Spurm. BB, your info's good too. That $54k number is just salary but if you click over to the benefits tab there's a chart that shows salary as being 70% of total compensation. Take $54k, divide by 0.7 and you get $77k which is in the ballpark of the numbers from the link I posted. Still top notch compensation within the teaching profession, but not the $76k + goodies on top that I interpreted earlier. My mistake.

Thanks for confirming because I wasn't 100% sure... Just based on conversations with some people who know teachers in Chicago. The way it's being reported is confusing. "$76K before benefits" makes it sound like that's what they take home, and then they get benefits on top of it.

[101A]

From THIS (http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/06/12/how-much-do-chicago-public-school-teachers-make/) article - CBS Chicago:


A Chicago Public Schools spokesperson said average pay for teachers, without benefits, is $76,000.


Block (union rep) said the average salary for CTU teachers is actually lower than what CPS claims, by about $5,000

You guys are wrong.

Salary = Salary.

Benefits are on top of that.

Not surprising; my local district here in PA (union friendly state; POWERFUL teacher's union); STARTS teachers at over $55k now - and they have 3% raises each of the next three years guaranteed before the next CBA comes up for "negotiation". Negotiation meaning the teachers threaten to strike, while the school board (two of who have spouses are teachers, three others have children in school) are the "opposition".

Public sector unions take a cannon to a fight where the other side is basically unarmed.

They suck.

[coyotes_geek]

I give up. :depressed

[101A]

Here's the districts entire roster:

http://www.cps.edu/About_CPS/At-a-glance/Documents/EmployeePositionRoster_07112012.pdf

[101A]

I give up. :depressed

Median <> Average, btw

[Wild Cobra]

Just a simplification of what might be happening.

If a new full time teacher makes $43k, and through 11 annual step increases makes $87k, then the average wage could be said to be $65k. However, if we have equal numbers of teachers by year and they stay for 25 years, then more than half are topped out at the $87k pay level. Add all these teachers salaries up and divide by the number of teachers and we get an average salary of $76,440.

[101A]

The other issue (looking at the roster); I've been assuming we're talking about "Full Time Teachers".

Chicago has lots of part time teachers who are members of the union; (salaries in the 20k range); would certainly bring the average way down.

[Venti Quattro]

Derrick Rose (http://twitter.com/drose/status/245201832215973889): Hope the CPS gets a deal done soon...we need our kids in school! #TheReturn


Derrick Rose (http://twitter.com/drose/status/245693560429608961): I'm sitting here just thinking how sad it is that my city got to go through this. I love my city and everyone in it even my haters!


Derrick Rose (http://twitter.com/drose/status/245693772338446336): I don't like that fact that OUR kids are not in school and that's the only thing we have to SAVE these kids.


Derrick Rose (http://twitter.com/drose/status/245693966916386816): I pray everyday for US for real. I know I shouldn't be saying this because I hoop and it's not my lane but I feel like ppl should hear this.
All of this from a guy who cheated on the SAT. :rollin

[jack sommerset]

They get paid well and shoudnt be striking. God bless

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It's probably a good thing i was not on last night for these gems.

Honestly though. The average American makes ~$45k nowadays. Chicago is appreciably more expensive to live in than the national average.

How much do you think a teacher should be paid? I know that quite a few are simply making claims on how much they make because you see 'union' and that is all she wrote but what do you think is a fair objective measure of how much a tenured teacher should make?

[Th'Pusher]

The teacher's salary is irrelevant at this point as that is not even a sticking point in the negotiation. The sticking points, as I understand them, are how much teacher evaluations should be weighted in job performance and the teacher's job security.

[Edward]

Teachers get every holiday imaginable, have hours where they never have to come in early or stay late, get a pension after 20 years, and it's not exactly a job that requires tons of intelligence. Most of all, a teacher who sucks at his/her job anyway could get caught fucking farm animals and he/she getting fired wouldn't even be a remote possibility.

Teachers getting so up in arms about their performance actually getting evaluated is because of how many teachers don't give a shit about their job and only do it because they can be lazy without getting fired.

[Latarian Milton]

Teachers get every holiday imaginable, have hours where they never have to come in early or stay late, get a pension after 20 years, and it's not exactly a job that requires tons of intelligence. Most of all, a teacher who sucks at his/her job anyway could get caught fucking farm animals and he/she getting fired wouldn't even be a remote possibility.

Teachers getting so up in arms about their performance actually getting evaluated is because of how many teachers don't give a shit about their job and only do it because they can be lazy without getting fired.

they're government's tools which are used to indoctrinate & brainwash the kids at very early ages, and government workers generally get paid good $ for being lazy asses. they going on striker is like protesting against their own boss (the government) which is weird imho

[jack sommerset]

Still going. God bless

[Wild Cobra]

Sorry, but I have no sympathy for teacher who make better wages and benefits than the average person, when they hold the average person's children hostage.

FUCK THEM!

[baseline bum]

But they don't make a middle income of 250k a year son.

[Wild Cobra]

But they don't make a middle income of 250k a year son.
So?

[jack sommerset]

But they don't make a middle income of 250k a year son.

Those who can, do...those who can't, teach. Not worth the 250 you speak of. Not worth the money they get as is, IMHO. Lord knows they have plenty of time on their hands so they can earn a little extra money doing other part time jobs. God bless

[TeyshaBlue]

We have Latrian, Edward and WC. Good to see the Axis of Stupidity hard at work.