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Tommy Duncan
09-09-2004, 01:07 PM
www.stolenhonor.com/ (http://www.stolenhonor.com/)

Nbadan
09-09-2004, 01:10 PM
nice poll...


Why does the truth about John Kerry's behavior in the Vietnam Era matter?

He focused on it at the Democratic Convention

He put political ambitions above the safety of soldiers and POWs who remained in Vietnam

He painted an untrue, lasting negative image of Americans who served in Vietnam

His betrayal of Vietnam Veteran

:rolleyes

no bias there.

Tommy Duncan
09-09-2004, 01:13 PM
Did the site claim not to be biased?

Yonivore
09-09-2004, 01:41 PM
Besides, any other answer to the poll question would mean his actions didn't matter and are, therefore, immaterial.

exstatic
09-09-2004, 01:43 PM
He painted an untrue, lasting negative image of Americans who served in Vietnam

Um, bad shit DID happen at the hands of Americans in Nam. Ever hear of My Lai? That doesn't tarnish all American soldiers, nor did Kerry say that all American's committed war crimes. The bad shit did happen, though.

Tommy Duncan
09-09-2004, 01:47 PM
Kerry clearly accused the commission and knowledge of war crimes to be widespread throughout the US military.

He was a very effective propagandist for the North Vietnamese. If it does prove to be true that he met with VietCong representatives in Paris, well it will be interesting to hear the spin...

xrayzebra
09-09-2004, 01:52 PM
Exstatic, would you like to consider this little statement:

"....Consider, for example, a four-day VVAW rally held in September 1970 called Operation Rapid American Withdrawal. Mr. Kerry was a co-sponsor as well as a speaker at the event. His official biographer, Douglas Brinkley, describes Operation RAW in his book, "Tour of Duty," in this way: "The idea behind Operation RAW was for Vietnam vets to march eighty-six miles between Revolutionary War sites — Morristown, New Jersey, and Valley Forge, Pennsylvania — engaging in guerrilla theater along the way."
On the surface, this is correct, but Mr. Brinkley conveniently leaves out an important detail. While the vets staged mock "invasions" in certain towns along their route, they left behind leaflets that read: "A U.S. Infantry Company just Came Through Here! If you had been a Vietnamese — We might have burned your house; We might have shot your dog; We might have shot you...; We might have raped your wife and daughter; We might have turned you over to your government for torture; We might have taken souvenirs from your property; We might have shot things up a bit...; We might have done ALL these things to you and your whole TOWN! If it doesn't bother you that American soldiers do these things every day to the Vietnamese simply because they are 'Gooks,' ......."

===

Please note: "American soldiers do these things every day.."

Kerry is was an ass hole and still is an ass hole, if it looks like
one, act's like one, then he must be one....

Yonivore
09-09-2004, 01:54 PM
What about the fact that Kerry attended a meeting of the VVAW where they seriously discussed the assassination of sitting U.S. elected and public officials?

Yeah, I know he voted against the proposal. But, did he report the crime?

xrayzebra
09-09-2004, 01:56 PM
But did he vote for it, before he voted against it? That is
the question....:wacko

Nbadan
09-09-2004, 01:58 PM
What about the fact that Kerry attended a meeting of the VVAW where they seriously discussed the assassination of sitting U.S. elected and public officials?

Kerry has denied he war there, and claims otherwise are conspiratorial.

Tommy Duncan
09-09-2004, 02:09 PM
Kerry said he was in Cambodia on Xmas day 1968 and Richard Nixon was president.

Try again.

Yonivore
09-09-2004, 02:27 PM
"Kerry has denied he war there, and claims otherwise are conspiratorial."
Sorry, the FBI is at odds with Kerry's recollection.

Yonivore
09-09-2004, 02:34 PM
L.A. Times Overlooks Details of Kerry's FBI Re (http://www.insightmag.com/news/2004/03/30/Politics/L.a-Times.Overlooks.Details.Of.Kerrys.Fbi.Record-638985.shtml)


FBI verifies Kerry at 'assassination summit' (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=37706)


Theft of FBI files 'has makings of Kerry Watergate' (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/04/11/wkerry11.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/04/11/ixnewstop.html)


You know, Google is a real bummer for liars.

Nbadan
09-09-2004, 02:54 PM
Worldnetdaily and The english-version, Neocon controlled telegraph? You can provide better propaganda sources than that Yoni. Your just not trying anymore.

Nbadan
09-09-2004, 03:06 PM
The assassination plot was suggested by antiwar activist Scott Camil. Camil and Kerry knew each other well; the two were together during the April 1971 protests on the Mall in Washington. In a telephone interview from his Florida home, Camil confirmed historical reports that he had suggested a vague plot aimed at prowar senators, but he said he has no recollection of seeing Kerry at the meeting.

"He had nothing to do with this," Camil said. "I don't remember seeing him there."

Another person at the Kansas City session, Larry Rottmann, also said he does not remember seeing Kerry there. A third key player, Randy Barnes, who headed the Kansas City chapter that hosted the meeting, has been quoted in the media as saying Kerry was there. But in a telephone interview, Barnes said he may have confused that session with an earlier one in St. Louis and now is unsure whether Kerry attended the Kansas City function.

"Quite honestly, I am not absolutely certain that John Kerry was at that meeting," Barnes said about the Kansas City session. "A meeting occurred in St. Louis and one occurred in Kansas City. I thought the Kansas City meeting was first."

But Barnes said he now realizes that "the St. Louis meeting was first. What I had thought was a certain thing, I am absolutely not sure now."

In any case, Barnes said, the plot suggested by Camil was never taken seriously and was quickly shouted down. As for Kerry, Barnes said, "John constantly gave an impassioned plea to be nonviolent, work within the system."

Many members of the organization agreed with Barnes that Kerry sought to moderate the group and that he quit the organization in 1971 when he could not come to terms with some of the more radical members the group.

Nicosia's history of the antiwar movement, "Home to War," says that Kerry resigned from Vietnam Veterans Against the War at a St. Louis meeting in July 1971 after a shouting match with another member. That reinforced the belief that Kerry was not in Kansas City in November 1971.

But two weeks ago, Nicosia said he examined some FBI reports that he had obtained during research for his book but had not reviewed. One report said Kerry was at the November meeting in Kansas City. The report, from an unnamed confidential source, said "John Kerry, a national VVAW leader, appeared at the meeting and announced to those present he was resigning from the executive committee for personal reasons; however, he would be available to speak for VVAW." The report does not mention discussion of a plot to kill senators; instead, it mentions that the group planned activities such as "a fast, a vigil, and guerrilla theater."

But another FBI report from the same period adds that an informant at the Kansas City meeting heard a "vastly more militant posture," prompting an FBI official to add this cautionary note: "Some information reports by various informants is at variance and considering extreme importance of developments in this matter and intense interest of other government agencies, it is essential that full details of meeting be ascertained accurately and immediately."The reports indicate that the FBI information about Kerry came not from FBI agents but from informants who fed information to the government. Thus, the reliability of the reports is difficult to verify.

Boston.com (http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/articles/2004/04/01/kerry_cant_recall_being_at_71_parley/)

Tommy Duncan
09-09-2004, 03:08 PM
So we can't trust government records from 30 years ago when they are bad for Kerry but we can trust such records when they are bad for Bush?

Everything makes sense now.

Nbadan
09-09-2004, 03:12 PM
At least kerry didn't go back and "allegedly" falsify records to cover his ass.

Tommy Duncan
09-09-2004, 03:18 PM
Why would he falsify records to say something that would harm him? That's dumb.

Yonivore
09-09-2004, 03:20 PM
So, you agree, the government records sourced in the links I posted aren't falsified? You can kill the messenger but, when they report facts...that's hard to squash.

But, talking about falsified records, why are the three different OFFICIAL narratives on Kerry's Silver Star award? More pointedly, why does the author of one (Secretary Lehman) not recall writing, or even seeing, what he supposedly wrote?

exstatic
09-09-2004, 03:28 PM
"American soldiers do these things every day.."

So? That still doesn't mean that ALL American soldiers did those things, which is what that spin-happy quote implied that Kerry said.

Take off your fucking rose-colored glasses. Americans did bad shit over there, and yes, it probably happened damn near every day. There were 500,000 Americans in country at times, and if even 1% were bad apples, that's 5,000 creeps armed with M-16s, RPGs, and other assortied goodies.



Huey waist gunner: "Anyone who runs is a VC."
Huey waist gunner: "Anyone who doesn't run is a well disciplined VC"
Joker: "You shoot women and chidren?"
Huey waist gunner: "Sometimes..."
Joker: "How can you shoot women and children?"
Huey waist gunner: "It's easy. You just don't lead them so much..."

Tommy Duncan
09-09-2004, 05:01 PM
Not all but he certainly painted a picture of rampant war crime actitivity being committed in SE Asia with the full knowledge of "all chains of command".

Yonivore
09-09-2004, 05:01 PM
"Huey waist gunner: "Anyone who runs is a VC."
Huey waist gunner: "Anyone who doesn't run is a well disciplined VC"
Joker: "You shoot women and chidren?"
Huey waist gunner: "Sometimes..."
Joker: "How can you shoot women and children?"
Huey waist gunner: "It's easy. You just don't lead them so much..."
Oh how funny! Did you make that up yourself?

exstatic
09-09-2004, 07:17 PM
Never saw Full Metal Jacket, eh Yoni?

CommanderMcBragg
09-09-2004, 09:30 PM
Full Metal Jacket was a great movie.

A man without honor is no man.

xrayzebra
09-09-2004, 09:41 PM
Full Metal Jacket......now that is a great source of
"meanful" information.........go to the movies and leave
the adults to talk!:elephant

Yonivore
09-10-2004, 01:03 AM
I saw Full Metal Jacket. Good movie but, it's got about as much to do with reality as John Kerry's testimony before the Senate Committee in 1972.

exstatic
09-10-2004, 01:37 AM
That kind of shit happened, Yoni. The dialogue was made up. The situations were realistic.

Yonivore
09-10-2004, 01:46 AM
Really? Then Kerry should have been dragged before an international tribunal and tried for these statements:

On April 22, 1971, under oath, John F. Kerry told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee that he had knowledge that American troops...

"...had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the country side of South Vietnam."

And then he admitted on television that "...yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed."

And, for good measure, he added "...(America is) more guilty than any other body, of violations of (the) Geneva Conventions ... the torture of prisoners, the killing of prisoners."
Of course he was totally discredited at the time and over time.

Do bad things happen in a war? Yes. Are there bad people serving our country during a war? Yep. But, unlike almost any other country on the face of the globe -- Israel and Britain -- being notable exceptions, we hold our soldiers accountable for their actions.

To imply these were every day events and a "matter of course" in the war, is not absurd but it dishonors the millions that served honorably in the Vietnam War.

Yonivore
09-10-2004, 01:51 AM
You know, after posting that, I see a pattern emerging.

Kerry also attended a meeting where the assassination of U.S. Senators was seriously discussed and voted on. And, while he voted against the proposition and then quit the organization over the matter, he didn't report it.

Just like he didn't report the atrocities to his superiors in Vietnam.

Instead, he waits until the most politically advantageous time to make a political statement on the matter. Yeah, this guy is honorable.

exstatic
09-10-2004, 02:01 AM
But, unlike almost any other country on the face of the globe -- Israel and Britain -- being notable exceptions, we hold our soldiers accountable for their actions.

Only My Lai was ever brought to public attention and trial. Scapegoats, as usual, to take the pressure off of the brass. They knew this shit was going on.


To imply these were every day events and a "matter of course" in the war, is not absurd but it dishonors the millions that served honorably in the Vietnam War.

Why is it absurd to think that 5000 or so assholes, the 1%, may have been running amok at any one time? And how does this impugn the other 99%?

Yonivore
09-10-2004, 02:10 AM
Wait a minute, you're talking about people "running amok" and I'm talking about Kerry's testimony this was the stated policy of the U.S. Government.

We agree there were people running amok. Hell, we have people running amok in Iraq. However, that neither reflects the official policy of a government nor does it negate the legitimacy of the military action being undertaken.

So, what's your point.

Kerry admitted to being one of those that ran amok. He should be in prison...if what he said is true.

exstatic
09-10-2004, 02:23 AM
...if what he said is true.

Which you have denied.

I'm not saying that the events in question were official policy, but bigwigs/brass sure as hell knew they were going on. I think that was what Kerry was trying to say. Field level commanders probably did order some of the shit, against policy. Don't assume that the 1% were all grunts.

Tommy Duncan
09-10-2004, 02:26 AM
Well sure but he advanced the notion that the claims that this was rampant behavior throughout the military operations in Vietnam were accurate and this is what seems to have pissed off a lot of Vietnam vets for a long, long time.

Yonivore
09-10-2004, 02:37 AM
Probably for as long as they live TD.

Nbadan
09-10-2004, 03:31 AM
From what I have seen just as many vets from all wars support Kerry, and maybe even more, than care about what Kerry said or did about the war once he came back. By the 70's public opinion about the Vietnam war was just as negative as it has grown today about Iraq. Once again the Republican't have found a issue that fires up the base, but does little to convince swing voters that in itself should disquilify John Kerry from being Commander in Chief.

As Tommy would say "Who gives a shit?".

Tommy Duncan
09-10-2004, 03:38 AM
Apparently a fair number of vets (and POWs, let's not forget) from all wars do not support Kerry for his public anti-war activities and his support, unintentional or perhaps, worse, for the VietCong. Again, Kerry says to vote for him because of who he was 35 years ago. Well then.

Don't despair danny. Kerry might just do a little better than the Duk when he loses to a Bush.

Nbadan
09-10-2004, 03:46 AM
Yeah right. The Swift boat vets can't even hold their own ship together. Many of the vets who are listed among the 250 supporters have said that they never intended for this too be used as a political weapon against Kerry. Other have denied ever being contacted by the Swift Boat vets at all.

The other day on right-wing radio they asked Vets to call in and answer whether they supported Kerry or not based on these allegations, most of the Vets who called in supported Kerry overwhelmingly and criticized both W. and Cheney for allowing these attacks to continue against a fellow vet. Suprised the hell out of the right-wing host.

Aggie Hoopsfan
09-10-2004, 04:20 AM
Yeah right. The Swift boat vets can't even hold their own ship together.

The same could be said of the DNC, Kerry's campaign, and Kerry's stance on most issues.