Young, Conservative, and Chicken-Hawks

[Nbadan]

By Adam Smeltz
Knight Ridder Newspapers


NEW YORK - Young Republicans gathered here for their party's national convention are united in applauding the war in Iraq, supporting the U.S. troops there and calling the U.S. mission a noble cause.

But there's no such unanimity when they're asked a more personal question: Would you be willing to put on the uniform and go to fight in Iraq?

In more than a dozen interviews, Republicans in their teens and 20s offered a range of answers. Some have friends in the military in Iraq and are considering enlisting; others said they can better support the war by working politically in the United States; and still others said they think the military doesn't need them because the U.S. presence in Iraq is sufficient.

"Frankly, I want to be a politician. I'd like to survive to see that," said Vivian Lee, 17, a war supporter visiting the convention from Los Angeles,

Real Cities (http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/9556221.htm)

Young Vivian appears to be a perfect example of the Republican philosophy surrounding the culture of life - no one's life is as valuable as their own.

[mookie2001]

theres nothing i hate more than young "republicans" who dont know shit

[gophergeorge]

Be nice to them Dan.... you kids will be working for them one day.... :)

[Clandestino]

your link didn't work and where is the rest of the article... you are the king of cutting and pasting parts of stories to fit your cause..

[Clandestino]

Be nice to them Dan.... you kids will be working for them one day.... :)

:lmao

[mookie2001]

be nice to them because they all drive tahoes

[Clandestino]

i have never anyone use the word tahoe more than mookie... it cracks me up... everything is about someone's tahoe...

[mookie2001]

yes
thank you for the cred, someone noticed
i fucking hate tahoes

[mookie2001]

tahoes yukons escalades

i can actually see why someone would need a suburban so i wont group them in there

1. they are ugly
2. they are slow
3. they are overpriced
4. the VAST majority of people with W04 stickers drive them
5. everyone has one
6. they guzzle gas
7. people never use them for utility at all
8. people will ALWAYS stick up for them on this site because someone they know or themselves own one (which is why its so funny when i scoff them)
9. people love to say tahoe
10. standard OnStar*

[desflood]

By Adam Smeltz
Knight Ridder Newspapers



Real Cities (http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/9556221.htm)

Young Vivian appears to be a perfect example of the Republican philosophy surrounding the culture of life - no one's life is as valuable as their own.
:rolleyes

[Cant_Be_Faded]

if you see a W 04 sticker on a vehicle, chances are its a fucking Tahoe

I LOVE these rich upper class young kids whose parents have brainwashed them into being Republican just for the sake of being Republican.

Its like....well why dont you join up if you're so loyal and supportive of the United States NOBLE cause?????

Oh, join the armed forces? oh no no no, thats not for me, thats for the lower class people that people like us take advantage of. No no, not me. Excuse me, I need to wash my Tahoe.

[SWC Bonfire]

Excuse me, I need to wash my Tahoe

I think you meant, "Excuse me, I need to take my Tahoe to <insert name of liberal poster>'s to get it detailed." :lol

I personally agree with you. I don't see the reason a 5'-1" woman needs to drive around solo in a 1000 cu ft. vehicle. Mostly I see women driving them. Solution: don't let women drive. :lol

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I personally agree with you. I don't see the reason a 5'-1" woman needs to drive around solo in a 1000 cu ft. vehicle. Mostly I see women driving them. Solution: don't let women drive. :lol


LOL!!! omg swc bonfire you hit the nail right on the head!

over half of all tahoes are small 20's-50's females wearing sunglasses who bitched to their husbands constantly to give them a tahoe so they'd feel "safe on the road"

LOL!!! its like they have to make themselves feel big and important by being so high up

[SWC Bonfire]

Well, we're in agreement on something.:tu

[mookie2001]

thats like the LOL of the year


anyway cbf knows i hate tahoes
people love saying tahoe, theres nothing they like more than to tell someone "oh, its in my tahoe" or "we'll take the tahoe"
tahoe tahoe tahoe yukon tahoe tahoe
people love that shit, because they are stupid and more people owning tahoes only makes more people buy tahoes, its a never ending cycle of conformity and conservative stupidity

and why do all yall conservatives always refer to to liberals as rich and elitist and then always say that we'll be serving yalls kids hamburgers are detailing tahoes or working for them
two of these examples are on this page
yall cant have it both ways bastards

[SWC Bonfire]

and why do all yall conservatives always refer to to liberals as rich and elitist and then always say that we'll be serving yalls kids hamburgers are detailing tahoes or working for them
two of these examples are on this page
yall cant have it both ways bastards

It's called good-natured joking. Try it sometime.

I don't understand the SUV thing... you could buy a friggin' Cadillac for the cost of those things. And the amount of truck chassis used to make them drives up the cost of pickups. It costs $35,000 now to get a no-frills 4x4 diesel work truck... I won't be buying a new one anytime soon.

[mookie2001]

cool bonfire
i actually agree with a lot of things you say
even some politics

[Clandestino]

a tahoe is safer than a honda civic. i'd rather my family be in the safest vehicle that i can afford... i have an suv, but it's not a tahoe...

[Clandestino]

also, why is it okay for all the rappers you worship to drive Escalades with spinning rims and soundsystems that have enough power to run a small city?

[mookie2001]

a tahoe is not safer than civic, theres been thousands and thousands of tests on this shit, if they were believe me GM would let us know about it.
thats another reason is when people say they "feel" safer, but youve got millions of tahoes/suburbans/yukons/escalades on the road and im sure they often hit and kill eachother

i dont worship any rappers but when they buy escalades i dont really care, you can only drive one car at a time and they have like 20 already. they want to be seen as rich pompous fuckers who blow their money, which i dont really agree with, but cant really do shit about but scoff them.

if any white mom in stoneoak with a W04 sticker riding alone talking on a cell phone, drifting into my lane drops an album such as wu tang clan- 36 chambers, cypress hill- III temples of boom, or notorious big- ready to die they can all drive sbc centers for all i care

[Clandestino]

no way in hell a civic is safer than a tahoe! haha... whatever...

oh...i see, you could care less when rappers buy huge suvs, but your panties get all bunched up when white people do it... i see....

[mookie2001]

read dude

1. i didnt say a civic was safer than tahoe
2. i said the only thing i could do was scoff them, which is exactly what i do to white women driving the same vehicle

CBF or elpimpo knows this, when i see a rapper on a video or showing off their shit, ill say "dam why wouldnt you just get an M5"

[Clandestino]

you said, "a tahoe is not safer than a civic." so, that would mean you must believe the civic is safer than the tahoe...yes no?

also, a study was done showing large and medium sized suvs crashing into the small pseudo-suvs and cars... in side crashes where the suv crashed into the passenger or drivers side door...the front of the suv would totally bash in the smaller cars and hit the drivers/passengers directly in the head.. that would not happen the other way around..

no way in hell will i ever think a small plastic car is safer than a large suv...

[Clandestino]

if your big bad rappers drove up in a hybrid you wouldn't think they were so cool... well, maybe if he had spinning rims you would... i don't know...

[mookie2001]

i said a tahoes not safer than a civic, they just by chance probably arent the exactly the same in safety but you cant just say ones safer than the other especially when suvs have notoriously high roll over rates
what happens when the trend is over and 90% of people really do own tahoes/yukons/suburbans/escalades how is that safer, in order to reach that % youd only have to go in the future like 20 years
how many people owned large american trucklike SUVS in 1985

[mookie2001]

actually i would think it was very cool of them to drive a hybrid

quit acting stupid dude, i dont like rappers for the cars they drive in fact thats one the reasons i dont like them, and i think spinning rims are stupid

[Clandestino]

whatever...you youngsters love all the hoopla and entourage, gold teeth, all that shit the rappers bring... if they didn't do all that, no one would give a fugg about them.. that is why each and every new rapper has to do something bigger and better to make a name... have more gold teeth, wear a bigger diamond necklace, bigger escalade, get short more times, etc... pathetic...

[mookie2001]

i hate pretty much every new rapper, i think we're talking about two different things
the rappers i mentioned havent dropped a legit cd since 97, 95

im not a fan of ludacris or jayz or nelly or eminem or 50cent, i hate them in fact

how old are you clan?

[Clandestino]

so, yeah, none of the other rappers or any democrats have suvs... stfu... suvs are not just driven by repubs

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Clanedestino you totally busted into an argument saying how mookie and others like rappers who drive SUV's before anyone even mentioned the word rapper in this thread...

Why do you always resort to the same old typical tactics? Its like in brave new world, you've been totally conditioned to go for some outlandish bull shit reason to scoff people with different views....much like you assume liberals are rich greedy bastards when it fits your argument, then quickly put them down as blue collar workers when that fits your argument

Lets just think about the topic at hand, which i think is suv safety. The Honda Civic is one of the safest CARS in the world, exceeded only by expensive ass mercedes which use top of the line technology....this is common knowledge and i know jack about cars.

Ok, judging before the suburban hysteria of ~1998 which led to the SUV explosion, were you safer or less safe driving a honda civic compared to today?

Less safe. Why? Well because now there are a SHITLOAD more SUV's on the road.

So lets think about this. In 1998 were you safer or less safe driving a tahoe, etc?

In 1998 you were safer. Why? Well because back then less SUV's were on the road.

Now, not taking anything to do with RAPPERS into this argument, isn't it safe to assume at this point that its because of SUV's themselves that you dont feel safe on the fucking road???

SUV's make me feel safer on the road. Why? Well because alot of people have SUV's now. Are you seriously scared of lincoln town cars and ford escorts when you're driving a yukon?? No you scared of land rovers, 4 runners, and TAHOES.

People first got SUV's because they wanted to feel big and better than everyone else, a natural pathetic aspect of human nature. Now they just say, well i know gas is horrible but it makes me feel safer, cuz now that half of the population is stuck with SUVs its alot more dangerous to drive out there....due to our own ignorance and childishness

Makes you safer indeed, but because youre the ones who made it dangerous

Its like old bush sr. giving Iraq thousands of tanks and fighter jets and then his 2nd term campaign tried to say 'elect me its a dangerous world out there'
"Because of you, you fucker!"
--Bill Hicks

[MannyIsGod]

Frankly, I think most young people with political ambitions are fucking stupid. I sat through a PSO meeting where a bunch of college Democrats came to sit in, and I wanted to beat them all over the head with my fucking shoe. When they were sitting there talking about Letticia Vandepuke they were saying we needed to fix the Korean situation. When asked how, they responded with "I dont know, do something". Right.

So yes, young Republicans are idiots, but so are young Democrats. Want to find the brighter people? Go look for young libertarians.

[gophergeorge]

What the hell would people who hand out books know?

Regards,

Gilda Radner

[Cant_Be_Faded]

ahhh, sweet gilda, r.i.p.

Libertarians are the shit. If you ask a libertarian: "What would you do if a cop asks to search your car?" Almost all of them would say "No."

[smeagol]

Libertarians are the shit.
What's a Libertarian?

[desflood]

What is a Libertarian?


Libertarians believe that you have the right to live your life as you wish, without the government interfering -- as long as you don’t violate the rights of others. Politically, this means Libertarians favor rolling back the size and cost of government, and eliminating laws that stifle the economy and control people’s personal choices.


Are Libertarians liberal or conservative?

Libertarians are neither. Unlike liberals or conservatives, Libertarians advocate a high degree of both personal and economic liberty. For example, Libertarians agree with conservatives about freedom in economic matters, so we're in favor of lowering taxes, slashing bureaucratic regulation of business, and charitable -- rather than government -- welfare. But Libertarians also agree with liberals on personal tolerance, so we're in favor of people’s right to choose their own personal habits and lifestyles.

In a sense, Libertarians “borrow” from both sides to come up with a logical and consistent whole -- but without the exceptions and broken promises of Republican and Democratic politicians. That's why we call ourselves the Party of Principle.

Go to www.lp.org for info

[scott]

It's awesome to hook up with a young, Republican chick - preferably one with a Tahoe and W sticker, although any SUV will do.

That way you can finally show them what it's like to be fucked over.

[Dre_7]

What is a Libertarian?


Libertarians believe that you have the right to live your life as you wish, without the government interfering -- as long as you don’t violate the rights of others. Politically, this means Libertarians favor rolling back the size and cost of government, and eliminating laws that stifle the economy and control people’s personal choices.


Are Libertarians liberal or conservative?

Libertarians are neither. Unlike liberals or conservatives, Libertarians advocate a high degree of both personal and economic liberty. For example, Libertarians agree with conservatives about freedom in economic matters, so we're in favor of lowering taxes, slashing bureaucratic regulation of business, and charitable -- rather than government -- welfare. But Libertarians also agree with liberals on personal tolerance, so we're in favor of people’s right to choose their own personal habits and lifestyles.

In a sense, Libertarians “borrow” from both sides to come up with a logical and consistent whole -- but without the exceptions and broken promises of Republican and Democratic politicians. That's why we call ourselves the Party of Principle.

Go to www.lp.org for info

So in other words, Liberatarians are social liberals and fiscal conservatives???

Sorry, I am not very knowledgeable about politics.

Are there such things as social conservatives and fiscal liberals?

[scott]

Are there such things as social conservatives and fiscal liberals?

His name is George W. Bush.

[exstatic]

Are there such things as social conservatives and fiscal liberals?

Yes, and they're running Washington right now...into the ground. ;)

[ElMuerto]

Be nice to them Dan.... you kids will be working for them one day.... :)

Or dying for them.

[Clandestino]

Clanedestino you totally busted into an argument saying how mookie and others like rappers who drive SUV's before anyone even mentioned the word rapper in this thread...

Why do you always resort to the same old typical tactics? Its like in brave new world, you've been totally conditioned to go for some outlandish bull shit reason to scoff people with different views....much like you assume liberals are rich greedy bastards when it fits your argument, then quickly put them down as blue collar workers when that fits your argument

Lets just think about the topic at hand, which i think is suv safety. The Honda Civic is one of the safest CARS in the world, exceeded only by expensive ass mercedes which use top of the line technology....this is common knowledge and i know jack about cars.

Ok, judging before the suburban hysteria of ~1998 which led to the SUV explosion, were you safer or less safe driving a honda civic compared to today?

Less safe. Why? Well because now there are a SHITLOAD more SUV's on the road.

So lets think about this. In 1998 were you safer or less safe driving a tahoe, etc?

In 1998 you were safer. Why? Well because back then less SUV's were on the road.

Now, not taking anything to do with RAPPERS into this argument, isn't it safe to assume at this point that its because of SUV's themselves that you dont feel safe on the fucking road???

SUV's make me feel safer on the road. Why? Well because alot of people have SUV's now. Are you seriously scared of lincoln town cars and ford escorts when you're driving a yukon?? No you scared of land rovers, 4 runners, and TAHOES.

People first got SUV's because they wanted to feel big and better than everyone else, a natural pathetic aspect of human nature. Now they just say, well i know gas is horrible but it makes me feel safer, cuz now that half of the population is stuck with SUVs its alot more dangerous to drive out there....due to our own ignorance and childishness

Makes you safer indeed, but because youre the ones who made it dangerous

Its like old bush sr. giving Iraq thousands of tanks and fighter jets and then his 2nd term campaign tried to say 'elect me its a dangerous world out there'
"Because of you, you fucker!"
--Bill Hicks

anytime mookie makes a comment about white people or republicans he somehow finds a way to use the word tahoe... i was stating the fact that his black rappers also drive them and other suvs...

and your little piece of shit plastic honda civic is no match for any suv... also, one accident and it is totaled...and the other guys bumper(car, truck, suv, even a fucking motorcycle) will be in your driving compartment.

civics are good in crashes as long as no other vehicle is involved...maybe a little mini... and btw, read back up on mookie and his dislike for tahoes... it is like you and women... or is women that don't like you...i forget

[MannyIsGod]

anytime mookie makes a comment about white people or republicans he somehow finds a way to use the word tahoe... i was stating the fact that his black rappers also drive them and other suvs...

and your little piece of shit plastic honda civic is no match for any suv... also, one accident and it is totaled...and the other guys bumper(car, truck, suv, even a fucking motorcycle) will be in your driving compartment.

civics are good in crashes as long as no other vehicle is involved...maybe a little mini... and btw, read back up on mookie and his dislike for tahoes... it is like you and women... or is women that don't like you...i forget
www.nhtsa.dot.gov (http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/)

According to the government, the Civics are just as safe as Tahoes, except in one catagory. Rollovers. There they are safer of course. So, in actuality, Civics ARE safer than Tahoes.

2005 Tahoes averaged a 4 star rating on frontal impact tests.
2005 Civics averaged all scored 5 star ratings on frontal impact tests, so they are safer there as well.

Civics did pretty well on the side impact tests as well, averaging 4.1 stars overall. Tahoes were not tested in 2005.

So, Civics are actually safer according to your own government.

[MannyIsGod]

http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ratings.htm

The Chevrolet Silverado 1500 and GMC Sierra 1500 were redesigned during the 1999 model year (the old design continued into the early part of the 1999 model year).

OVERALL EVALUATION: MARGINAL

STRUCTURE/SAFETY CAGE: POOR There was moderate intrusion into the driver footwell area and moderate rearward movement of the instrument panel. There also was extensive floor buckling under the driver seat.

RESTRAINTS/DUMMY KINEMATICS: POOR Dummy movement wasn't well controlled. After the dummy moved forward into the airbag, its head dropped down below the window sill. Then the head rebounded upward and hit the shoulder belt housing, which is mounted directly to the seat back. There was far too much upward movement of the steering wheel, which can compromise restraint system performance. Also, the driver seat came loose on one of its tracks and moved rearward slightly on the right side, where the safety belt buckle is anchored.

INJURY MEASURES: GOOD Measures taken from the head, chest, and both legs indicate low risk of injury. Head acceleration from the shoulder belt housing hit was low.

The Honda Civic was redesigned for the 2001 model year.

OVERALL EVALUATION: GOOD

STRUCTURE/SAFETY CAGE: GOOD There was minimal intrusion into the driver footwell area and minimal rearward movement of the instrument panel.

RESTRAINTS/DUMMY KINEMATICS: GOOD Dummy movement was well controlled. During rebound, the dummy's head hit the roof rail and B-pillar.

INJURY MEASURES: GOOD Measures taken from the head, chest, and both legs indicate low risk of injury to these body regions. Head accelerations from the roof rail and B-pillar hits were low.



The Civic did - as did most other vehicles - rate poorly on rear impact and neither vehicle was tested for side impacts through this insitute.

[bigzak25]

murano>tahoe

http://www.edmunds.com/media/2002/new_york/03.nissan.murano.f3-4.500.jpg

[SWC Bonfire]

Manny, I believe that most of the ratings that are derived for frontal impact are by necessity equivalent to the vehicle hitting a solid object with no over vehicle involved, or a vehicle of similar size. This means that if you crash into a wall, those ratings are accurate. But since there aren't a lot of walls suddenly materializing in intersections, the reality is that you are going to hit a bigger vehicle, and the Laws of conservation of energy and momentum are not going to work in your favor.

[MannyIsGod]

True, they are meant to be compared to vehicles close in weight. They aren't perfect indicators by any means, but the Civic outperforms by quite a bit in some of these tests. So all in all, I think in the end it evens out. I'd rather be in a midsize car than a compact or an SUV anyday.

[Useruser666]

Manny, those tests are very, very limited in scope. The Civic's ratings are only for crashes with stationary immovable/nondeformable objects, such as concrete center line dividers, bridge columns, or large trees. It preforms well against those objects because it has a low mass, and therefore, less inertia. The Civic's ability to survive a crash diminishes SUBSTANTIALLY as the size of the vehicle it crashes into increases. The Tahoe larger mass allows it survive crashes with vehicles smaller than it much better. The Tahoe falls short on safety when it faces as large, larger vehicles, or non-deformable/immovable objects. The Tahoe is also less safe in roll over crashes.

What can not be derived from the crash tests is what makes them short in scope. Roll over crashes account for only a very small percentage of vehicle accidents. There is a larger percentage of deaths involving SUV roll overs than cars, but overall this is a MUCH smaller risk than overall deaths from vehicle collisions.

I rather be in a larger vehicle because I feel there is a greater risk of someone crashing into me, than me rolling my vehicle, or hitting a stationary nondeformable/immovable object.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

yes so basically if everyone and their small framed mothers didnt have tahoes, then everyone would have middle sized cars, small cars, and trucks

making the civic's already GOOD safety rating even better (relatively)

a tahoe hitting a tahoe will be fucked more than a civic hitting a civic. so why so many tahoes? if youre really worried about 'being safe' then get a civic and your tahoe driving neighbor will too. the result: overall increased safety

its when i think about stuff like this that i realize the benefit of increasing gas prices...

[Nbadan]

Are there such things as social conservatives and fiscal liberals?


Yes, and they're running Washington right now...into the ground.

NeoCons are social conservatives and fiscal liberals.

:lol

Libertarians are fiscal conservatives and social liberals
True Conservatives are fiscal conservatives and social conservatives
True Liberals are fiscal liberal and social liberal.

Got it? There's gonna be a test later!

[Clandestino]

yeah, those highly staged tests aren't worth a fuck... you can just turn on the news and see the little civic pinned underneath an suv and see how safe they really are...

if i'm going across an intersection and someone runs a red light and smashes into me from any angle you can be damn sure i'd rather be in any medium-large suv versus a small car...

side airbags are nice, but once it deflates and the bumper is still crashing into the side of your head they don't do that much

[JoePublic]

Hundreds die every year in SUV's. They don't make you safer only make you think you are safer. When your time is up a Hummer won't save your ass.

[GopherSA]

So yes, young Republicans are idiots, but so are young Democrats. Want to find the brighter people? Go look for young libertarians.


You're a libertarian?

I'm sorry for thinking all those nasty things about you.

You're not a bad guy, after all!

[Useruser666]

Hundreds die every year in SUV's. They don't make you safer only make you think you are safer. When your time is up a Hummer won't save your ass.

Sorry guy, if driven safelty, an SUV is safer than a car (average). A Hummer (H1) is safer than most SUVs.

[CommanderMcBragg]

Death doesn't give a shit what you drive.

[smeagol]

Thanks desflood :spin

[mookie2001]

gopher im a libertarian and i disagree with everything youve ever said

[GopherSA]

gopher im a libertarian and i disagree with everything youve ever said

Even the pro-Spurs posts?

[RandomGuy]

a tahoe is safer than a honda civic. i'd rather my family be in the safest vehicle that i can afford... i have an suv, but it's not a tahoe...

Until you factor in propensity for roll-overs...

Crash tests are all well and good, but they are far from the only measure of safety.

[Useruser666]

Until you factor in propensity for roll-overs...

Crash tests are all well and good, but they are far from the only measure of safety.

Wrong, roll overs only account for a small percentage of crashes in SUVs. They account for a larger percentage of deaths from vehicle accidents in SUVs compared to cars. The part that really stands out is how many of these deaths were caused by not wearing a seat belt. More than half could have been prevented by using a seat belt.

[RandomGuy]

As for the thread topic,

I joined the military and was fully prepared to die for the constitution, and as I have gotten older, I have only gotten more firm in my beliefs that the ideas and ideals embodied in that document are the most worthy ones for a government.

While I fully acknowledge that the military is not for everybody, I find the current administrations avoidance of Vietnam (Dick "other priorities" Cheney and GW "what me show up?" Bush) irritating, and emblematic of the priorities of those who are in power.

[SWC Bonfire]

If you want to be really safe, drive something like a full-size Buick Park Avenue or similar vehicle.

[RandomGuy]

Wrong, roll overs only account for a small percentage of crashes in SUVs. They account for a larger percentage of deaths from vehicle accidents in SUVs compared to cars. The part that really stands out is how many of these deaths were caused by not wearing a seat belt. More than half could have been prevented by using a seat belt.

Heh, I realize that USAA has it's headquarters here, so I am probably gonna end up trying to talk facts with someone who might actually know their shit, so I will readily admit to not being an expert in actuarial statistics.

Roll-overs may "only account for a small percentage" of SUV crashes, but if that percentage is higher to a statistically signifant degree then, that one aspect of safety favors vehicles with lower centers of gravity.

The seat belt thing should hold true over both types of vehicles, yes? "More than half" is relevant to the topic only if it is different than sedans.

And if you are talking death rates, one has to isolate several factors in analysing the data.

For example:

If it is found that 15% of all crash deaths are found to be passenger or drivers in an SUV, that would imply that SUV's are safer, right? Not exactly.
Add another bit of data for consideration: 5% of all vehicles are SUVs. This would imply exactly the opposite of the first conclusion, because the rate of death is so much higher. (the preceding statistics were pulled out of my ass for the sake of explanation)

There is also a whole bunch of other confounding factors, such as the demographics of the drivers. Young, single males tend to kill themselves at much higher rates, so if your vehicle is primarily driven by young single males, your vehicle will look much less safe on paper.

Crash tests aren't the only measure of safety, but it is hard to argue with the fact that they have much higher centers of gravity and will roll over at lower speeds that just about any sedan.

[RandomGuy]

note: RG has taken a couple courses in statistics and gotten A's in them. I like math. :)

[Useruser666]

My point was not clearly explained. Sorry.


Vehicle weight and the risk of death: Because vehicle size and weight are so closely related, it shouldn’t be surprising that their effects on driver death rates are similar. In each group (cars, SUVs, pickups) the heavier vehicles, like bigger ones, generally had lower death rates. The rate in the lightest SUVs, for example, was more than twice as high as in the heaviest SUVs.

“Pound for pound across the vehicle types, cars almost always have lower death rates than either pickups or SUVs. This generally is because the SUVs and pickups have much higher rates of death in single-vehicle rollover crashes,” Lund explains.

In some weight groups, the death rates in cars were dramatically lower. For example, the rate in cars weighing 3,501 to 4,000 pounds was about half of the rates in pickups or SUVs of similar weight. The exception was light pickups, which had relatively low rates compared with cars or SUVs weighing about the same. “There’s no ready explanation for this exception,” Lund says. “It probably has something to do with how light pickups are driven and their use patterns compared with larger and heavier pickups.”

Rates differ among similar vehicles: Besides these broad death rate differences across vehicle groups, the rates varied within body style and size groups. In almost every size group of two-door and four-door cars, for example, the death rate for the worst vehicle was at least twice as high as the rate for the best vehicle.

Consider the Infiniti G20’s rate of 46 deaths per million registered years, which was much lower than rates for other small four-door cars. The Chevrolet Cavalier’s rate was 162 per million, and the Pontiac Sunfire’s was 160. The upper confidence bound for the G20’s death rate is well below the lower confidence bounds for the other two cars.

“This means that the lower death rate for the G20 wasn’t due to chance,” Lund says. A more extreme example involves midsize four wheel-drive SUVs. The Toyota 4Runner had only 12 driver deaths per million registered years during 2000-03. This compares with 134 deaths per million for the two door Ford Explorer and 119 per million for the Land Rover Discovery Series II.

Single- versus multiple-vehicle crashes: In many vehicle groups, driver death rates are split fairly evenly between single- and multiple-vehicle crashes. But there are exceptions. Most driver deaths in large four-door cars and minivans occurred in crashes involving other vehicles. In contrast, in pickup trucks and SUVs of almost every size more deaths occurred in single-vehicle crashes. In large four-wheel-drive SUVs, for example, the death rate was almost three times as high in single-vehicle crashes as it was in collisions involving two or more vehicles (14 deaths per million compared with 40).

Rollover crashes: Eleven vehicles, all pickups or SUVs, had more than 75 driver deaths per million in single-vehicle rollover crashes. This is in large part because pickup trucks and SUVs have relatively high centers of gravity compared with cars. The Ford Excursion is a very large SUV with a high rollover death rate. This is at least in part because its occupancy rate tends to be high, which raises its center of gravity even higher.

The vehicle with the very highest driver death rate in single-vehicle rollover crashes was the two-door, two-wheel-drive Chevrolet Blazer. The 251 deaths per million for this SUV compare with an average of 63 for all midsize two-wheel-drive SUVs, 34 for four-wheel drive versions, and 28 for all vehicles in the study.

Not all midsize SUVs had high death rates in single-vehicle rollovers. The Lexus RX 300, Toyota 4Runner, Nissan Pathfinder, and Acura MDX had 6 or fewer rollover deaths per million vehicle years. Both the RX 300 and the 4Runner are equipped with electronic stability control, which has been shown to significantly reduce the risk of fatal single-vehicle crashes including rollovers

Not one driver death occurred in a rollover of the RX 300 or four-wheel-drive Toyota RAV4, a small SUV. This experience doesn’t mean the rates for these vehicles will be zero every year, but it does mean very low rates can be expected.

“Small SUVs have had high rollover death rates in previous years, but as the RAV4 indicates this may be changing. One reason may be that the drivers are changing,” Lund points out. “It used to be that younger people, especially young men, drove small SUVs, but now many women drive them, including older women. In addition, as vehicle manufacturers redesign their small SUVs they’re addressing the rollover problem in the designs, making these vehicles more stable and less likely to roll over.”

My point is this:

If you can learn to drive an average SUV safely, it is a safer vehicle than most average cars. Most of the deaths in SUVs are from single vehicle accidents. I feel like I am a good driver. I fear other drivers impacting me, more than losing the control of the vehicle I am driving. In accidents between average size cars and average size SUVs, the SUVs are statistically safer than the cars.

Many deaths in SUVs can be contributed to the following factors:

People who aren't familiar with driving SUVs and the differences of their handling to that of cars.

Reckless drivers who take the "styling" of the larger SUV too far with road rage or "bullying".

SUVs tend to carry more passengers than cars.


A similar story was shown on tv a year or so ago that talked about the dangers of passenger vans. There had been several accidents involving passenger vans, the 15 person models specifically, that had people talking about their safety. It can be argued that many of the accidents involved drivers that weren't regular drivers of larger vehicles, and that many happened on long trips on unfamiliar roads or driving conditions.

Almost any vehicle can be driven safely. There are few exceptions. People need to have better driving habits and know the limitations of their own vehicles. Oh, and wear a fucking seat belt. :lol

[Nbadan]

A story of two young Americans - one a hero, the other a chicken-hawk


FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. -- Shaded by a towering blue spruce in Wheeler Park stands a gray granite monument that honors this city's men and women who have died in combat from the Spanish-American War to, as the memorial reads, "Iraqi Freedom." The name of Lance Cpl. Marty G. Mortenson was etched into the stone on the eve of Armed Forces Day in May. A month earlier, on April 20, Mortenson had been killed by a roadside bomb in Iraq.

Just a few months before he died, Mortenson sent his mother an e-mail: I am really sorry about your birthday . . . I am so stressed out that it is really bring me down. . . . I have had so much on my mind . . . going off to war 4 the 3rd time isn't easy. Mortenson was on his third tour -- his third pump, in Marine jargon -- in Iraq. He had spent his 20th, 21st and 22nd birthdays in Iraq. Before he left on his last tour, he told a friend in California: "It's like three strikes, you're out. I have a feeling I'm not going to come home."

A generation ago in the Vietnam War, grunts had to survive 13 months and then knew they were going home for good. But the nature of an all-volunteer military has changed deployments and expectations for America's troops.....

Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...)

Compare and contrast...


By the time I encountered Cory Bray, a towering senior from the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School of Business, the beer was flowing freely. "The people opposed to the war aren't putting their asses on the line," Bray boomed from beside the bar. Then why isn't he putting his ass on the line? "I'm not putting my ass on the line because I had the opportunity to go to the number-one business school in the country," he declared, his voice rising in defensive anger, "and I wasn't going to pass that up."

And besides, being a College Republican is so much more fun than counterinsurgency warfare. Bray recounted the pride he and his buddies had felt walking through the center of campus last fall waving a giant American flag, wearing cowboy boots and hats with the letters B-U-S-H painted on their bare chests. "We're the big guys," he said. "We're the ones who stand up for what we believe in. The College Democrats just sit around talking about how much they hate Bush. We actually do shit."

The Nation (http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20050711&s=blument...)

[Nbadan]

Check out this statement from the chicken-hawks web site...


My name is Cory Bray. I'm hoping you've picked that up by now. I'm 19 years old and go to the Wharton School of Business at the University of Pennsylvania. Like most of you, some stuff and some people really piss me off. This is the place to let others know what that stuff is and who those people are. The best part is that it's online so I won't have liberals lined up outside my computer protesting me. At least I hope not.

There are two reasons for this website. The first is to have fun. This creates a forum of people who are more likely to know each other than most other message board / news sites on the internet. The second reason is to get CoryBray.com's search engine ranking up really high so when I'm a millionaire, I can exploit my fame and become a billionaire. That probably won't happen though because apparently drug addicts and illegal aliens need my money more than I do, right Richman?

Cory Bray (http://www.corybray.com/about.htm)

Making fun of this guy is like booing at the Special Olympics.

[mookie2001]

dam i would crush that chodes face
as long as he's not that huge weightroom attendant that works at the VictoriaYMCA, i could take him

[GopherSA]

Dan, can you back up that the lance corporal was a liberal?

Doubtful.

Speaking from my own life experience, growing up poor does not mean growing up a liberal.

[mookie2001]

i love the title of this thread!!
an nbadan classic

[Cant_Be_Faded]

would you rather be young and conservative or old and conservative

[mookie2001]

old and conservative
so i least i can say i joined when my party WAS the party of fiscal conservation and small goverment

[TheIf Of jUStiCE]

noone in here truely knows what its like to be young and conservative. only those that are young and those that are conservative are totally brainwashed, and they know not what they do.

[SWC Bonfire]

noone in here truely knows what its like to be young and conservative. only those that are young and those that are conservative are totally brainwashed, and they know not what they do.

That's bold talk for a one-eyed fat man.

If the young, conservative voter is a place for you to focus the extreme bile that you have towards society, good for you.

Most of my current political views are direct results of my travels abroad and interacting with institutionalized socialism as it exists in the UK and Continental Europe.

[Dos]

On the inevitable issue - the war in Iraq - Clinton advocated U.S. involvement for as long as it takes to help the fledging government there establish itself and until Iraqis can defend their country. Iraqis are dying in big numbers, but they turned out to vote in bigger numbers than Americans do, he noted.

"We are where we are," he said. "I wouldn't give it up yet. I think we ought to stick in there and make it work."

so I guess bill clinton is a big liberal chicken hawk?

[Oscar DeLa]

i dont know what it is
but presidents by definition cant be chicken hawks during their term in office

and


i dont know what is it
but when something good happens, its because of bush
and when something bad happens, its because of clinton

[scott]

There are idiot libertarians too ya' know...

[JoeChalupa]

I'd still vote for Bill.

[Nbadan]

On the inevitable issue - the war in Iraq - Clinton advocated U.S. involvement for as long as it takes to help the fledging government there establish itself and until Iraqis can defend their country. Iraqis are dying in big numbers, but they turned out to vote in bigger numbers than Americans do, he noted.

"We are where we are," he said. "I wouldn't give it up yet. I think we ought to stick in there and make it work."

so I guess bill clinton is a big liberal chicken hawk?

Why is this even surprising? Hillary has come out in support of keeping the troops in Iraq longer also. There are elements within the Democratic Party, and the corporate-run DLC, that can be as chicken-hawkish as members of the Republican Party. Liebermann, Miller, and Nelson come to mind.

[Nbadan]

And just when you probably thought you'd seen the last of this thread, a new outrage


Staff Sgt. Jason Rivera, 26, a Marine recruiter in Pittsburgh, went to the home of a high school student who had expressed interest in joining the Marine Reserve to talk to his parents.

It was a large home in a well-to-do suburb north of the city. Two American flags adorned the yard. The prospect's mom greeted him wearing an American flag T-shirt.

"I want you to know we support you," she gushed.

Rivera soon reached the limits of her support.

"Military service isn't for our son. It isn't for our kind of people," she told him.

Post Gazette (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05223/552161.stm)

[ClintSquint]

http://www.141empire.com/images/cinema/inyourface.gif
"What the hell are you talkin' about!"

[Nbadan]

This chicken-hawk tries to argue that it is unamerican to call young Republicans chicken-hawks:


The "chickenhawk" argument is dishonest. It is dishonest because the principle of republicanism is based on freedom of choice about behavior (as long as that behavior is legal) as well as freedom of speech about political issues. We constantly vote on activities with which we may or may not be intimately involved. We vote on police policy, though few of us are policemen; we vote on welfare policy, though few of us either work in the welfare bureaucracy or have been on welfare; we vote on tax policy, even if some of us don't pay taxes. The list goes on and on. Representative democracy necessarily means that millions of us vote on issues with which we have had little practical experience. The "chickenhawk" argument -- which states that if you haven't served in the military, you can't have an opinion on foreign policy -- explicitly rejects basic principles of representative democracy.

The "chickenhawk" argument also explicitly rejects the Constitution itself. The Constitution provides that civilians control the military. The president of the United States is commander-in-chief, whether or not he has served in the military. Congress controls the purse strings and declares war, no matter whether any of its members have served in the military or not. For foreign policy doves to high-handedly declare that military service is a prerequisite to a hawkish foreign policy mindset is not only dangerous, but directly conflicts with the Constitution itself.

The "chickenhawk" argument proves only one point: The left is incapable of discussing foreign policy in a rational manner. They must resort to purely emotional, base personal attacks in order to forward their agenda. And so, unable or unwilling to counter the arguments of those like Paul Wolfowitz, Dick Cheney and President Bush, they label them all "chickenhawks." By the leftist logic, here are some other "chickenhawks": John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, John Hancock, James Madison, Abraham Lincoln, Woodrow Wilson and Bill Clinton.

American soldiers fight for the right of all Americans, regardless of race, class or past service, to speak out on foreign policy issues. If they fight for the right of pacifist anti-military fifth columnists like Michael Moore to denigrate their honor, they certainly fight for the right of civilian hawks to speak up in favor of the highest level of moral and material support for their heroism.

Ben Shapiro (http://www.townhall.com/columnists/benshapiro/bs20050817.shtml)

If it looks, walks and quacks like a....well, you know the rest.

[mookie2001]

I hate those fucking Tahoe driving, pink shirted, fauxhawked, front tucking, ambercrombie belt buckle sporting, w sticker having, OnStar* using chickenhawks.

nothing I hate more

[Cant_Be_Faded]

^bump

A few nights ago, I was watching the Tony Douche show. He had Jesse Ventura on the show. Jesse personally called out Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and a few others, calling them no good CHICKENHAWKS.

When Tony Deutch asked him what chickenhawk meant, Jesse said ( closely paraphrased)

A Chickenhawk is someone who was too chicken to get their butt in the war, back when it was their time, and now 20 years later that they are wearing suits and sitting in an office, are determined to go to war no matter the cost. They're chickenhawks.


I love that word. So fitting.

[Vashner]

Hum well in San Antonio I worked at 2 bases. And 99% of the people where not pussies like Dan....

Most of them sign up they know what they are doing.

These are volunteers Dan.. stop trying to fucking twist things around...

The war has been raging a LONG time now and people still join....

So please step the fuck off, your the chickenshithawk....

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Hum well in San Antonio I worked at 2 bases. And 99% of the people where not pussies like Dan....

Most of them sign up they know what they are doing.

These are volunteers Dan.. stop trying to fucking twist things around...

The war has been raging a LONG time now and people still join....

So please step the fuck off, your the chickenshithawk....



The marines at war today are not chickenhawks....far from it. They're doing a job, that they have to do.

But those people who talk and talk and talk all day influencing the minds of countless dumbass americans about how war is so good and necessary are chickenhawks cuz they were too pussy to step up and become a soldier when they were younger.

[mookie2001]

by definition? how could soldiers be chickenhawks

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I think he just saw an NBAdan thread and his 'conserve' mechanism got switched on and he posted nonsense

[SpursWoman]

LOL!!! its like they have to make themselves feel big and important by being so high up


The same way middle aged men buy sports cars because they somehow are deluded into thinking that makes them anything other than still middle-aged, fat & wrinkled?

Or are they compensating for other deficiencies? :spin


I am about 80% Republican and I hate SUV's. It's bad enough having to fill up my little car for $40.00. :(


And I hate having to back out of a parking spot sandwiched in between two of them and can't see shit. :flipoff

[SpursWoman]

But those people who talk and talk and talk all day influencing the minds of countless dumbass americans about how war is so good and necessary are chickenhawks cuz they were too pussy to step up and become a soldier when they were younger.


Are you referring just to the war that's going on now, or wars in general?

You could still be speaking Spanish you know.....or German....or Japanese...or eating boiled nasty shit and Yorkshire Pudding with your rotted-out teeth. And instead of only 13 million Jews dead, it could have been all of them.

:wow :wow :wow

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Are you referring just to the war that's going on now, or wars in general?

You could still be speaking Spanish you know.....or German....or Japanese...or eating boiled nasty shit and Yorkshire Pudding with your rotted-out teeth. And instead of only 13 million Jews dead, it could have been all of them.

:wow :wow :wow


No chances are I wouldn't have been born.

And I bumped the thread to talk about how Jesse Ventura totally bitchslapped all those neocon talk show hosts who are so pro war and anti-anti war

So if anyone was gung ho about world war 2 and did not serve, yes i guess it applies to that war too

But the point is not me saying i am anti war the point is there are alot of dickheads out there filling up the airwaves and poisoning alot of minds with their bull shit, when in fact they're nothing more than big fat pussies

If theres a hardcore military general shouting out shit about the war, then good for him, what can i say against him? It's these Hannity types.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Chances are I would drop everything I am doing and take up arms when I hear the situation and words of a man who knows something about valor and the warrior's spirit, over some flaming flamer bitch ass hannity-esque types.


Yet those are the mouths that the common young neo conservative gets his ideas from. No I can't prove that, but listening to them talk in person, I can call it an educated guess.

[boutons]

"were too pussy to step up and become a soldier when they were younger."

examples: shrub, dickhead, Wolfy all evaded service in Viet Nam, but they were goddam eager to lie their way into starting a bogus war and have Other Peoples' Kids wasted.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

NBADan told me (havent verified it myself) that Rush Limbaugh did not serve because he had a wart on his ass

[Nbadan]

NBADan told me (havent verified it myself) that Rush Limbaugh did not serve because he had a wart on his ass

Well, it's technically called a pilonidal cyst (http://www.nwcrc.com/pilonidal-cysts.htm) and it wasn't on his ass, it was in his ass.

Here (http://www.snopes.com/military/limbaugh.htm) is a link to the complete story by Snoopes, but the jist of it is..


Claim: Talk radio host Rush Limbaugh was disqualified from the Vietnam-era draft due to a pilonidal cyst.

Status: True.

Example: [Collected on the Internet, 2002]

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Hmm. This only serves to enhance his fatness' laughability.