I notice blue team is conveniently ignoring the univision F&F expose...

[CosmicCowboy]

http://abcnews.go.com/ABC_Univision/News/fast-furious-scandal-details-emerge-us-government-armed/story?id=17352694&page=2#.UGoB8U3R58E

On January 30, 2010, a commando of at least 20 hit men parked themselves outside a birthday party of high school and college students in Villas de Salvarcar, Ciudad Juarez. Near midnight, the assassins, later identified as hired guns for the Mexican cartel La Linea, broke into a one-story house and opened fire on a gathering of nearly 60 teenagers. Outside, lookouts gunned down a screaming neighbor and several students who had managed to escape. Fourteen young men and women were killed, and 12 more were wounded before the hit men finally fled.

Indirectly, the United States government played a role in the massacre by supplying some of the firearms used by the cartel murderers. Three of the high caliber weapons fired that night in Villas de Salvarcar were linked to a gun tracing operation run by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), according to a Mexican army document obtained exclusively by Univision News.

Univision News identified a total of 57 more previously unreported firearms that were bought by straw purchasers monitored by ATF during Operation Fast and Furious, and then recovered in Mexico in sites related to murders, kidnappings, and at least one other massacre.

As part of Operation Fast and Furious, ATF allowed 1,961 guns to "walk" out of the U.S. in an effort to identify the high profile cartel leaders who received them. The agency eventually lost track of the weapons, and they often ended up in the hands of Mexican hit men , including those who ordered and carried out the attack on Salvarcar and El Aliviane, a rehabilitation center in Ciudad Juarez where 18 young men were killed on September 2, 2009.

In Mexico, the timing of the operation coincided with an upsurge of violence in the war among the country's strongest cartels. In 2009, the northern Mexican states served as a battlefield for the Sinaloa and Juarez drug trafficking organizations, and as expansion territory for the increasingly powerful Zetas. According to documents obtained by Univision News, from October of that year to the end of 2010, nearly 175 weapons from Operation Fast and Furious inadvertently armed the various warring factions across northern Mexico.

"Many weapons cross the border and enter Mexico, but that [Fast and Furious] number, quantity and type of weapons had quite an impact in the war in this area" Jose Wall, an ATF agent stationed in Tijuana from 2009 to 2011, told Univision News.

Following the death of Border Patrol agent Brian Terry at the hands of Mexican bandits on December 14, 2010, media and Congressional investigations prompted hearings. On September 20, the U.S. Department of Justice Office of the Inspector General report, which opened the door for sanctions of 14 ATF and DOJ officials.

In Washington, the Fast and Furious scandal became politicized, diverting the attention from the human cost in Mexico to political battles on Capitol Hill. In June, a vote to hold Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt ignored the real tragedy in Mexico.

"Americans are not often moved by the pain of those outside [their country]…" Javier Sicilia, a Mexican poet whose son was killed in the midst of the violence, told Univision News. "But they are moved by the pain of their own. Well, turn around and watch the massacres."

The Univision News investigation also found ATF offices from states besides Arizona pursued similar misguided strategies. In Florida, the weapons from Operation Castaway ended up in the hands of criminals inColombia, Honduras and Venezuela (link audio crumpler), the lead informant in the case told Univision News in a prison interview.

"When the ATF stopped me, they told me the guns were going to cartels," Hugh Crumpler, a Vietnam veteran turned arms trafficker, told Univision News. "The ATF knew before I knew and had been following me for a considerable length of time. They could not have followed me for two months like they said they did, and not know the guns were going somewhere, and not want for that to be happening."

Other firearms under ATF surveillance were permitted to leave the country from Texas, according to court documents and the exclusive testimony of Magdalena Avila Villalobos, the sister of an ICE agent who survived a confrontation with cartel hit men on a rural highway in Mexico on February 15, 2011. His fellow agent, Jaime Zapata, was killed during the attacks.

"It's not from Arizona and Fast and Furious," Avila Villalobos told Univision News, speaking in her brother's stead for the first time, "but it's a very similar operation..." She later added, "Those weapons that have been recovered, it's been confirmed that they were weapons used in the shootout that killed Jaime Zapata and wounded Victor Avila."

The Texas-based operation and the firearms linked to the attack were bought by two trafficking rings in the state, according to Raymond Thomas, the Zapata family's lawyer.

Earlier this year, Texas Senator John Cornyn had echoed Thomas' assertions . Moreover, on September 25, Congressman Darrell Issa and Senator Charles Grassley, the politicians behind the Fast and Furious congressional report released in July, sent a letter to the Department of Justice's Office of the Inspector General, requesting an investigation into Avila's and Zapata's case.

[boutons_deux]

Obama is personally responsible for F&F. It's Gecko/Ryan's October surprise.

[CosmicCowboy]

For once we agree on something. Maybe not the October surprise part.

[ChumpDumper]

lol personally responsible

[CosmicCowboy]

lol personally responsible

LOL, neither one of us knows for sure.

[TeyshaBlue]

Buck stops where?

[ChumpDumper]

LOL, neither one of us knows for sure.lol you certainly have your mind made up

[CosmicCowboy]

lol you certainly have your mind made up

As do you, apparently

oh yeah

LOL

[CosmicCowboy]

I firmly believe that if the ATF agents on the ground in Arizona hadn't snitched to congress about F&F that Holder and Obama would have used Agent Terry's death as the posterchild for reinstating the assault rifle ban.

I respect your right to believe differently.

[mavs>spurs]

Holder should be fired..you're just now realizing this shit? There ain't going to be any accountability from the blue team..don't hold your breath.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Kinda like you ignored the IG's report from mid-September?

And you guys are not even framing the argument correctly. The GOP is trying --and failing-- to pin it on Holder. Maybe if they can get that right --every dog has its day?-- then you can talk about the POTUS.

I normally stay out of these discussions but CC's gross confirmation bias and intellectual laziness just irk me. I have always wondered though why you guys do not talk about Operation Wide Receiver?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I firmly believe that if the ATF agents on the ground in Arizona hadn't snitched to congress about F&F that Holder and Obama would have used Agent Terry's death as the posterchild for reinstating the assault rifle ban.

I respect your right to believe differently.

Does reynold's wrap work or does it have to be tin?

[ElNono]

What part is being ignored?

[HI-FI]

Buck stops where?
it only stops with GeKKKO and repugs
/bd


What part is being ignored?
It does feel underreported compared to something like Watergate, which was like a journalistic call-to-arms even though no one died from it. Something stinks really bad about F&F, just waiting for a Woodward or Bernstein type to nail it.

[CosmicCowboy]

Kinda like you ignored the IG's report from mid-September?

And you guys are not even framing the argument correctly. The GOP is trying --and failing-- to pin it on Holder. Maybe if they can get that right --every dog has its day?-- then you can talk about the POTUS.

I normally stay out of these discussions but CC's gross confirmation bias and intellectual laziness just irk me. I have always wondered though why you guys do not talk about Operation Wide Receiver?

:lmao

LOL about Holders justice department investigating itself. You are one gullible dumbshit if you gave that report any credence.

Talk about confirmation bias...

Wide Receiver was done AS A FUCKING PARTNERSHIP WITH THE MEXICAN GOVERNMENT AND THE MEXICAN GOVERNMENT TRACKED THE GUNS AFTER THEY CROSSED THE BORDER.

GFY you arrogant little unformed prick.

[ElNono]

It does feel underreported compared to something like Watergate, which was like a journalistic call-to-arms even though no one died from it. Something stinks really bad about F&F, just waiting for a Woodward or Bernstein type to nail it.

There's no "smoking gun" yet... Watergate had the tape.

Was it a fuckup from the DoJ? Sure. Should Holder et all be hanged by the balls for such fuckup? I think so.

But to go Cosmored and claim this is some conspiracy to toughen gun laws, you need hard evidence. In watergate, that was the white house tapes.

[ChumpDumper]

lol CosmoredCowboy

[HI-FI]

There's no "smoking gun" yet... Watergate had the tape.

Was it a fuckup from the DoJ? Sure. Should Holder et all be hanged by the balls for such fuckup? I think so.

But to go Cosmored and claim this is some conspiracy to toughen gun laws, you need hard evidence. In watergate, that was the white house tapes.

that's a reasonable reply. i just hate seeing partisan hackery in response to this situation. I don't know if there is a smoking gun, but I hope there is at least enough people looking for it.

[CosmicCowboy]

LOL BouChump

[ElNono]

that's a reasonable reply. i just hate seeing partisan hackery in response to this situation. I don't know if there is a smoking gun, but I hope there is at least enough people looking for it.

There's partisan hackery because there's an election coming up. As far as people looking for a smoking gun, I suspect there won't be after the election, tbh

[ChumpDumper]

LOL BouChumpYou're the one who agreed Obama is personally responsible then walked back, then doubled down.

Make up your mind.

[clambake]

this thing does stink.

at least there's some humor from the guys that spent 8 years looking the other way.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

:lmao

LOL about Holders justice department investigating itself. You are one gullible dumbshit if you gave that report any credence.

Talk about confirmation bias...

Wide Receiver was done AS A FUCKING PARTNERSHIP WITH THE MEXICAN GOVERNMENT AND THE MEXICAN GOVERNMENT TRACKED THE GUNS AFTER THEY CROSSED THE BORDER.

GFY you arrogant little unformed prick.

It was administered by the internal affairs for the Department. Other than a blanket dismissal is there anything else you can provide to simply dismiss it out of hand.

Are you trying to be ironic? Do you know what confirmation bias means? The DoJ IG report doesn't contradict anything of that and encompasses it as well. You just do not like the part where the IG doesn't point the finger where you want it pointed. That is confirmation bias.

I do not dispute the 'expose' but I am missing what in there is anything resembling new information. I am going to channel RG and point out that all you are doing here is some handwaving. You then follow that with trying to pin it on the POTUS when your GOP masters cannot even pin it on his AG.

As for OWR, I again do not know what the difference is. It's the same program but now its okay because the Mexicans went along with it? I can think of another distinction that would have you giving it a pass.

On a final note, lets make one thing clear: I do not like Obama. At all. I think he has done a piss poor job and most of that is due to him not having any rein over the federal bureaucracy. If I was trying to confirm anything it would be that not party dick-sucking such as you have mastered. I just remember the same nonsense with the GOP and Clinton. Its the same shit different day.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

it only stops with GeKKKO and repugs
/bd


It does feel underreported compared to something like Watergate, which was like a journalistic call-to-arms even though no one died from it. Something stinks really bad about F&F, just waiting for a Woodward or Bernstein type to nail it.

You think that the issues that journalists are having with the border cartels might have something to do with it?

Watergate had an anonymous source that got those two started and its one thing to do an investigation in Baltimore versus Juarez right now.

[Clipper Nation]

LOL at Team Red...

Willard paints himself brown for his Univision interview in a racist attempt to look Mexican: :cry "Who cares, it's just Univision" :cry

Univision basically comes out with a Faux News boilerplate Fast and Furious article: :cry "Univision is blowing the whistle on our gub'mint" :cry

[CosmicCowboy]

You're the one who agreed Obama is personally responsible then walked back, then doubled down.

Make up your mind.

I'm not walking anything back dickhead.

I believe Holder at least, and probably POTUS knew exactly what they were doing in F&F. My belief can't be proven because POTUS invoked executive privilege on the documents Holder didn't want to disclose and allowed Holders justice department to investigate itself instead of allowing a special prosecutor. Either way, I hold POTUS responsible for F&F for appointing Holder, who was either complicit in the operation or totally incompetent for not knowing about it.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Well the reds tried to make the gulf spill his katrina so it would make sense to make the f&f debacle his watergate... so many conspiracy theories and not one of them has become the 'scandal' that the red team wants. it reeks of desperation..that is why I think this place is going to be fun if Obama wins re-election.. I can't wait!

[George Gervin's Afro]

I'm not walking anything back dickhead.

I believe Holder at least, and probably POTUS knew exactly what they were doing in F&F. My belief can't be proven because POTUS invoked executive privilege on the documents Holder didn't want to disclose and allowed Holders justice department to investigate itself instead of allowing a special prosecutor. Either way, I hold POTUS responsible for F&F for appointing Holder, who was either complicit in the operation or totally incompetent for not knowing about it.

well if no one told him about the nitty gritty details..how is that incompetent?

[CosmicCowboy]

Well the reds tried to make the gulf spill his katrina so it would make sense to make the f&f debacle his watergate... so many conspiracy theories and not one of them has become the 'scandal' that the red team wants. it reeks of desperation..that is why I think this place is going to be fun if Obama wins re-election.. I can't wait!

How stupid can you fucking be? Nobody tried to blame the gulf spill on Obama. If anything, he was blamed for over reacting and shutting down all drilling in the gulf.

[CosmicCowboy]

well if no one told him about the nitty gritty details..how is that incompetent?

Uhhh....it's called his JOB to know shit like that. This wasn't a secretary ordering paper clips.

[George Gervin's Afro]

How stupid can you fucking be? Nobody tried to blame the gulf spill on Obama. If anything, he was blamed for over reacting and shutting down all drilling in the gulf.



Conservative radio host Rush Limbaugh called the oil slick "Obama's Katrina."

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2010-05-03/news/27063392_1_offshore-drilling-oil-rig-massive-oil

[George Gervin's Afro]

How stupid can you fucking be? Nobody tried to blame the gulf spill on Obama. If anything, he was blamed for over reacting and shutting down all drilling in the gulf.




http://www.redstate.com/erick/2010/05/05/the-gulf-oil-spill-is-barack-obamas-katrina-and-halliburton-all-rolled-into-one/

RSEDITOR OF REDSTATEThe Gulf Oil Spill is Barack Obama’s Katrina and Halliburton All Rolled Into One
By: Erick Erickson (Diary) | May 5th, 2010 at 10:44 PM | 47

RESIZE:
AAA
There was the delayed response. There was the worrying about the image. There was the lack of resources. No, I’m not talking about Hurricane Katrina, but the Obama Administration’s handling of the British Petroleum oil spill.

But it gets better. It is not only like Bush’s Katrina, but like Halliburton too.

Turns out Barack Obama has gotten more money from British Petroleum than any other American politician. Not just that, but BP spent $15.9 million lobbying the Democrats and Obama last year.

The result of all that money to Obama? The Obama Administration exempted British Petroleum from an environmental drilling study.

Oh, and while the oil was spreading, the Interior Department Chief of Staff was white-water rafting on the Grand Canyon as part of a “work-focused” trip.

That’s like Obama’s Director of the National Counterterrorism Center, who stayed on a ski vacation post-Christmas instead of returning to deal with the panty-bomber.

These guys remain amateurs. They run a good campaign, but they can’t govern to save our lives.


stupid..lol

[CosmicCowboy]

stupid..lol

You find some internet blog written by some nobody as your "proof"?

You might as well quote Boutons to prove the VRWC.

:lmao

[George Gervin's Afro]

How stupid can you fucking be? Nobody tried to blame the gulf spill on Obama. If anything, he was blamed for over reacting and shutting down all drilling in the gulf.

[George Gervin's Afro]

You find some internet blog written by some nobody as your "proof"?


:lmao

lol..so you didn't mean just somebody.. well then who are you referring to stupid?

[CosmicCowboy]

You really are that stupid.

Nobody blamed the oil spill on Obama.

Do you have reading comprehension issues?

[George Gervin's Afro]

Well the reds tried to make the gulf spill his katrina so it would make sense to make the f&f debacle his watergate... so many conspiracy theories and not one of them has become the 'scandal' that the red team wants. it reeks of desperation..that is why I think this place is going to be fun if Obama wins re-election.. I can't wait!

[CosmicCowboy]

lol..so you didn't mean just somebody.. well then who are you referring to stupid?

Of course there were policy disagreements...specifically with the White House shutting down oil drilling in the gulf completely and even ignoring a federal judges order to reinstate drilling, but no one blamed the oil spill on Obama or thought there was anything he personally could do to stop the oil spill once it started. If they did, they were idiots.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Of course there were policy disagreements...specifically with the White House shutting down oil drilling in the gulf completely and even ignoring a federal judges order to reinstate drilling, but no one blamed the oil spill on Obama or thought there was anything he personally could do to stop the oil spill once it started. If they did, they were idiots.

I wasn't implying that anyone blamed Obama for the spill..rather the red team did what they could to try and make Obama look as bad over the handling of the spill as the blue teamers did to Bush over Katrina..

[CosmicCowboy]

I wasn't implying that anyone blamed Obama for the spill..rather the red team did what they could to try and make Obama look as bad over the handling of the spill as the blue teamers did to Bush over Katrina..

Glad you cleared that up.

[boutons_deux]

"blue teamers did to Bush over Katrina."

typically false equivalence, dubya's "MBA Whitehouse" folded a highly respected Clinton-FEMA into DHS and totally mismanaged it, and had that scumbag CNN-watcher Chertoff running it.

[TeyshaBlue]

Well the reds tried to make the gulf spill his katrina so it would make sense to make the f&f debacle his watergate... so many conspiracy theories and not one of them has become the 'scandal' that the red team wants.
Not Really.

[TeyshaBlue]

wingnut blog

Oh. Good. You found a wingnut to confim your suspicions.

Guess I'll just post a buncha youtube links, or Big Government links as opposing "evidence".

[101A]

Political ramifications aside; I read that article, and watched quite a bit of the Univision piece yesterday. I am ashamed of my country, frankly. Allowing - (practically gift wrapping them) THAT many guns to cross the border and then be used to wreak havoc and violence in Mexico is pathetic and callous.

[clambake]

Political ramifications aside; I read that article, and watched quite a bit of the Univision piece yesterday. I am ashamed of my country, frankly. Allowing - (practically gift wrapping them) THAT many guns to cross the border and then be used to wreak havoc and violence in Mexico is pathetic and callous.

sure, but did you notice that red teamer that started this thread has ignored the republican voter fraud thread like the plague?

[TeyshaBlue]

Apple, meet parachute pants.

[clambake]

Apple, meet parachute pants.

apple could probably sell those!

[ElNono]

Political ramifications aside; I read that article, and watched quite a bit of the Univision piece yesterday. I am ashamed of my country, frankly. Allowing - (practically gift wrapping them) THAT many guns to cross the border and then be used to wreak havoc and violence in Mexico is pathetic and callous.

There's been worse... ie: Nicaragua, Chile...

[TeyshaBlue]

apple could probably sell those!

iPants FTW!

[CosmicCowboy]

sure, but did you notice that red teamer that started this thread has ignored the republican voter fraud thread like the plague?

Fucking dumbass.

If it's true, why would I want to defend it?

[Winehole23]

well, you did conveniently ignore the recent thread after raising holy hell about it.

[clambake]

well, you did conveniently ignore the recent thread after raising holy hell about it.

exactly

[clambake]

Fucking dumbass.

fucking chickenshit

[ChumpDumper]

Fucking dumbass.

If it's true, why would I want to defend it?Right, you're conveniently ignoring the story, just like the rest of red team.

[CosmicCowboy]

Right, you're conveniently ignoring the story, just like the rest of red team.

What exactly am I supposed to say?

[ChumpDumper]

What exactly am I supposed to say?You are expected to do nothing except conveniently ignore it.

[clambake]

What exactly am I supposed to say?

start a thread that says red team is conveniently ignoring it.

[CosmicCowboy]

Actually, I didn't read it because the link set off all sorts of malware virus warnings.

[Winehole23]

and that single link, among what must be dozens and dozens of available ones on the interwebz, is where your curiosity about this issue of burning importance conveniently came to a full stop.

[ChumpDumper]

Actually, I didn't read it because the link set off all sorts of malware virus warnings.Oh, well I'll just put up a new link for you, princess. Then you won't have a reason to conveniently ignore it anymore.

[CosmicCowboy]

Oh, well I'll just put up a new link for you, princess. Then you won't have a reason to conveniently ignore it anymore.

I'm not your princess, faggot.

[CosmicCowboy]

BTW, its' Boutons thinkprogress links that are setting off the alarms.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm not your princess, faggot.I never said you were mine, princess.

[ChumpDumper]

BTW, its' Boutons thinkprogress links that are setting off the alarms.So you were simply conveniently ignoring the others...

[CosmicCowboy]

It was giving me the warning just trying to go to the first page of the thread. Now I'm conveniently ignoring you. Fuck off bitch.

[LnGrrrR]

Uhhh....it's called his JOB to know shit like that. This wasn't a secretary ordering paper clips.

I think that Abu Gonzalez proved you don't actually have to know anything about your job. "I don't recall"...

[ChumpDumper]

It was giving me the warning just trying to go to the first page of the thread. Now I'm conveniently ignoring you. Fuck off bitch.Probably the best course of action to preserve your ego, princess.

[clambake]

princess, lol

[Wild Cobra]

I wonder how many Fast and Furious details will come out later this month?

[LnGrrrR]

FWIW, I hope more details about Fast and Furious come out, and if they find whoever's responsible then they should punish/prosecute to the full extent of the law. Of course, I sincerely doubt that anything will happen.

[CosmicCowboy]

FWIW, I hope more details about Fast and Furious come out, and if they find whoever's responsible then they should punish/prosecute to the full extent of the law. Of course, I sincerely doubt that anything will happen.

Unfortunately, as long as Obama is President and Holder is Attorney General the truth will remain hidden.

[Wild Cobra]

Unfortunately, as long as Obama is President and Holder is Attorney General the truth will remain hidden.
It doesn't mean a new arrangement of known information will not be an October Surprise commercial.

[LnGrrrR]

Unfortunately, as long as Obama is President and Holder is Attorney General the truth will remain hidden.

It won't matter even if a Republican jumps into office. Look at what happened when Obama took over... a lot of liberals thought he'd look into some of the Justice Dept's proceedings, the banking crisis, etc etc. Instead, he played the whole, "New day, turn the page, let's not get bogged down in who did what" card. I can guarantee you that Romney would do the same.

[Wild Cobra]

It won't matter even if a Republican jumps into office. Look at what happened when Obama took over... a lot of liberals thought he'd look into some of the Justice Dept's proceedings, the banking crisis, etc etc. Instead, he played the whole, "New day, turn the page, let's not get bogged down in who did what" card. I can guarantee you that Romney would do the same.
It would appear that who sits in that chair doesn't matter. The rest of the government has grown so strong, that nobody can oppose what is in place now. The best we can hope for, is not to enact more legislation flowing the dame direction.

[ChumpDumper]

It doesn't mean a new arrangement of known information will not be an October Surprise commercial.It doesn't mean that such an attempt would be a success since every attempt to tie this to Obama has failed.

[boutons_deux]

Paul Ryan Calls For Holder To Resign Over Fast And Furious Despite Report Exonerating The Attorney General (http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/10/03/942721/paul-ryan-calls-for-holder-to-resign-over-fast-and-furious-despite-report-exonerating-the-attorney-general/)

GOP vice-presidential candidate Paul Ryan may be so busy campaigning that he hasn’t had time to read the news in the last few weeks (http://www.beaufortobserver.net/Articles-NEWS-and-COMMENTARY-c-2012-10-01-262945.112112-Ryan-calls-for-the-removal-of-Eric-Holder.html). At least, that is the most charitable explanation of how Ryan could have called for Attorney General Eric Holder to resign or be fired because he supposedly “misled Congress and entirely botched the investigation of the Fast and Furious program.”

In reality, of course, the Department of Justice’s Inspector General conducted a thorough investigation of the botched “gun running” operations that began under President George W. Bush and included the Fast and Furious sting, and his 471-page report cleared Holder of any wrongdoing (http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/09/19/877451/inspector-generals-fast-and-furious-report-clears-attorney-general-holder/).

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/10/03/942721/paul-ryan-calls-for-holder-to-resign-over-fast-and-furious-despite-report-exonerating-the-attorney-general/

Ryan's firing blanks, CC hit right between the eyes :lol

[TeyshaBlue]

It doesn't mean that such an attempt would be a success since every attempt to tie this to Obama has failed.

Buck's gotta stop somewhere, no?

[CosmicCowboy]

Paul Ryan Calls For Holder To Resign Over Fast And Furious Despite Report Exonerating The Attorney General (http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/10/03/942721/paul-ryan-calls-for-holder-to-resign-over-fast-and-furious-despite-report-exonerating-the-attorney-general/)

GOP vice-presidential candidate Paul Ryan may be so busy campaigning that he hasn’t had time to read the news in the last few weeks (http://www.beaufortobserver.net/Articles-NEWS-and-COMMENTARY-c-2012-10-01-262945.112112-Ryan-calls-for-the-removal-of-Eric-Holder.html). At least, that is the most charitable explanation of how Ryan could have called for Attorney General Eric Holder to resign or be fired because he supposedly “misled Congress and entirely botched the investigation of the Fast and Furious program.”

In reality, of course, the Department of Justice’s Inspector General conducted a thorough investigation of the botched “gun running” operations that began under President George W. Bush and included the Fast and Furious sting, and his 471-page report cleared Holder of any wrongdoing (http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/09/19/877451/inspector-generals-fast-and-furious-report-clears-attorney-general-holder/).

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/10/03/942721/paul-ryan-calls-for-holder-to-resign-over-fast-and-furious-despite-report-exonerating-the-attorney-general/

Ryan's firing blanks, CC hit right between the eyes :lol

:lmao

gullible fucktard

[Th'Pusher]

Paul Ryan Calls For Holder To Resign Over Fast And Furious Despite Report Exonerating The Attorney General (http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/10/03/942721/paul-ryan-calls-for-holder-to-resign-over-fast-and-furious-despite-report-exonerating-the-attorney-general/)

GOP vice-presidential candidate Paul Ryan may be so busy campaigning that he hasn’t had time to read the news in the last few weeks (http://www.beaufortobserver.net/Articles-NEWS-and-COMMENTARY-c-2012-10-01-262945.112112-Ryan-calls-for-the-removal-of-Eric-Holder.html). At least, that is the most charitable explanation of how Ryan could have called for Attorney General Eric Holder to resign or be fired because he supposedly “misled Congress and entirely botched the investigation of the Fast and Furious program.”

In reality, of course, the Department of Justice’s Inspector General conducted a thorough investigation of the botched “gun running” operations that began under President George W. Bush and included the Fast and Furious sting, and his 471-page report cleared Holder of any wrongdoing (http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/09/19/877451/inspector-generals-fast-and-furious-report-clears-attorney-general-holder/).

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/10/03/942721/paul-ryan-calls-for-holder-to-resign-over-fast-and-furious-despite-report-exonerating-the-attorney-general/

Ryan's firing blanks, CC hit right between the eyes :lol


IIRC the report actually said while he didn't know about ff, he should have. Not exactly a ringin endorsement of his performance.

[boutons_deux]

You guys were as skeptical when dubya said America doesn't torture, and that Iraq had WMD.

I don't see where a bunch of fucktards continuing DUBYA's gun running plan 2000 miles from DC are something the US AG should know about, esp when the fucktards probably knew they were violating policies, etc.

[CosmicCowboy]

You guys were as skeptical when dubya said America doesn't torture, and that Iraq had WMD.

I don't see where a bunch of fucktards continuing DUBYA's gun running plan 2000 miles from DC are something the US AG should know about, esp when the fucktards probably knew they were violating policies, etc.

Will you quit it with this "dubya started it" bullshit. It's a fucking lie and you know it. Wide Receiver was a JOINT EFFORT with the Mexican police and the Mexican police followed the guns in Mexico and arrested the bad guys.

[Th'Pusher]

You guys were as skeptical when dubya said America doesn't torture, and that Iraq had WMD.

I don't see where a bunch of fucktards continuing DUBYA's gun running plan 2000 miles from DC are something the US AG should know about, esp when the fucktards probably knew they were violating policies, etc.

thats fine. The report disagreed and didn't exactly exonerate mr holder as the huffpo piece seemed to suggest.

[TeyshaBlue]

thats fine. The report disagreed and didn't exactly exonerate mr holder as the huffpo piece seemed to suggest.
Good enough for the bot.

[Th'Pusher]

Issa has moved his witch hunt on to Hillary anyhow. Hillary says she needs no help from Obama invoking executive privlidge :lol

[ChumpDumper]

Buck's gotta stop somewhere, no?Taking responsibility as chief executive and admitting to actively planning this as some kind of gun control scheme are two completely different things, and that's a distinction a lot of people would miss. The current course of action seems pretty realistic.

[CosmicCowboy]

Taking responsibility as chief executive and admitting to actively planning this as some kind of gun control scheme are two completely different things, and that's a distinction a lot of people would miss. The current course of action seems pretty realistic.
?

Please elaborate on what is realistic

[boutons_deux]

right-wing dingbats trying to tatoo Holder and Barry with F&F, but they refuse to give responsibility to dubya, dickhead, etc for 9/11.

[CosmicCowboy]

right-wing dingbats trying to tatoo Holder and Barry with F&F, but they refuse to give responsibility to dubya, dickhead, etc for 9/11.

HOLY SHIT!

ATF FLEW THOSE PLANES INTO THE TOWERS??????

[TeyshaBlue]

Still using the "But, they did it first!" defense? That was not effective in 3rd grade, much less now. Try again.

[ChumpDumper]

[/U][/B]
?

Please elaborate on what is realisticWhat part of "the current course of action" do you not understand?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Still using the "But, they did it first!" defense? That was not effective in 3rd grade, much less now. Try again.

That would be true if there was a true independent arbiter. In third grade you tell that to the teacher or whatever authority figure at the moment.

Who is that in this case? A vote for contempt of and by themselves?

Seriously if they get the balls and refer it over to a grand jury then let me know. Until that time we both know it is political posturing and in that regards the GOP has little room to talk.

[TeyshaBlue]

Indeed. 's why its a ridiculous defense.

[Nbadan]

GOP is hypocritical about FF because it was the lax gun laws in Arizona that made FF possible in the first place...

10,000's of guns slip to Mexican drug gangs from the U.S every year because of our lax gun laws, many used in crimes committed thoughout Mexico, but the GOP wants nothing to do with that

[TeyshaBlue]

GOP is hypocritical about FF because it was the lax gun laws in Arizona that made FF possible in the first place...

10,000's of guns slip to Mexican drug gangs from the U.S every year because of our lax gun laws, many used in crimes committed thoughout Mexico, but the GOP wants nothing to do with that

What additional laws, if any, should be crafted? Additionally, what laws are "lax"?

[JoeChalupa]

This F&F was a total debacle.

[Th'Pusher]

Additionally, what laws are "lax"?

The second amendment. :lol

[Nbadan]

What additional laws, if any, should be crafted? Additionally, what laws are "lax"?


Any 18-year-old without a criminal record can buy as many firearms in Arizona as he wants and the same afternoon transfer them to whomever. That whomever may very well be the person who put up the money for the purchase. After the transfer, the guns can wind up anywhere, but thousands of guns go to Mexico. Many of those wind up in the hands of gangsters in the drug cartels whose war among themselves and on the Mexican people have taken an estimated 50,000 lives in six years.

Straw-purchase cases are difficult to prosecute anywhere, but Eban writes that it was made more difficult by the reluctance of Arizona-based U.S. prosecutors to take on any case that wasn't ironclad. And their definition of that was extreme:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/06/27/1103530/-Fortune-Much-of-what-you-think-you-know-about-Fast-and-Furious-may-not-be-the-case-at-all

[Nbadan]

After examining one suspect's garbage, agents learned he was on food stamps yet had plunked down more than $300,000 for 476 firearms in six months. [Dave Voth, supervisor of Fast and Furious] asked if the ATF could arrest him for fraudulently accepting public assistance when he was spending such huge sums. Prosecutor [Emory] Hurley said no. In another instance, a young jobless suspect paid more than $10,000 for a .50-caliber tripod-mounted sniper rifle. According to Voth, Hurley told the agents they lacked proof that he hadn't bought the gun for himself. [...]

Even if a suspect bought 10 guns that were recovered days later at a Mexican crime scene, this didn't mean the initial purchase had been illegal. To these prosecutors, the pattern proved little. Instead, agents needed to link specific evidence of intent to commit a crime to each gun they wanted to seize.

Fast and Furious was an attempt to get the ironclad evidence needed. The idea was to manually dig through the sales reports of holders of Federal Firearms Licenses, select some likely straw purchasers, track the weapons they bought and then bring strong cases against them and their recruiters.

[Nbadan]

Quite simply, there's a fundamental misconception at the heart of the Fast and Furious scandal. Nobody disputes that suspected straw purchasers under surveillance by the ATF repeatedly bought guns that eventually fell into criminal hands. Issa and others charge that the ATF intentionally allowed guns to walk as an operational tactic. But five law-enforcement agents directly involved in Fast and Furious tell Fortune that the ATF had no such tactic. They insist they never purposefully allowed guns to be illegally trafficked. Just the opposite: They say they seized weapons whenever they could but were hamstrung by prosecutors and weak laws, which stymied them at every turn.

Indeed, a six-month Fortune investigation reveals that the public case alleging that Voth and his colleagues walked guns is replete with distortions, errors, partial truths, and even some outright lies. Fortune reviewed more than 2,000 pages of confidential ATF documents and interviewed 39 people, including seven law-enforcement agents with direct knowledge of the case. [...]

"Republican senators are whipping up the country into a psychotic frenzy with these reports that are patently false," says Linda Wallace, a special agent with the Internal Revenue Service's criminal investigation unit who was assigned to the Fast and Furious team (and recently retired from the IRS). A self-described gun-rights supporter, Wallace has not been criticized by Issa's committee.

Chances of its being prosecuted before it expires at the end of the congressional session are nil. Republicans know that. It's all about making noise against Obama.

[Nbadan]

By the end of July 2010, the Fast and Furious investigation was largely complete. The agents had sent prosecutors 20 names for immediate indictment, Jaime Avila's among them. His purchase of the three WASR-10s were listed among his criminal acts. On Aug. 17, 2010, ATF agents met in Phoenix with prosecutors, including U.S. Attorney Dennis Burke. According to two people present, the ATF presented detailed evidence, including the fact that their suspects had purchased almost 2,000 guns, and pushed for indictments. A month later, on Sept. 17, an ATF team—this time including ATF director Kenneth Melson—met with prosecutors again and again pushed for action. The sides agreed to aim for indictments by October, according to one person in attendance.

But as weeks and then months passed, prosecutors did not issue indictments. The ATF agents grew increasingly concerned. By December, prosecutors had dropped Avila's name from the indictment list for what they deemed a lack of evidence.

Only when Terry, the U.S. Border Patrol agent, was murdered in December 2010 did the prosecutors act. Voth's agents arrested Avila within 24 hours of Terry's death. On Jan. 19, 2011, a federal grand jury indicted him and 19 other suspects. (Avila has since pleaded guilty to dealing guns without a license).

Meanwhile, a crucial part of the Fast and Furious scandal—an unusual alliance that would prod politicians and spread word of the failure to stop guns from making their way to Mexican drug cartels—was waiting in the wings. Little more than a week after Terry's murder, a small item about the possible connection between his death and the Fast and Furious case appeared on a website, CleanUpATF.org. The site was the work of a disgruntled ATF agent-turned-whistleblower, Vince Cefalu, who is suing the bureau for alleged mistreatment in an unrelated case. His website has served as a clearinghouse for grievances and a magnet for other ATF whistleblowers.

It had also attracted gun-rights activists loosely organized around a blog called the Sipsey Street Irregulars, run by a former militia member, Mike Vanderboegh, who has advocated armed insurrection against the U.S. government. It was an incendiary combination: the disgruntled ATF agents wanted to punish and reform the bureau; the gun-rights activists wanted to disable it. After the item about Terry appeared, the bloggers funneled the allegations through a "desert telegraph" of sorts to Republican lawmakers, who began asking questions.

A week after the initial Fast and Furious press conference in January 2011, Dodson dropped a small bombshell. He told a supervisor that he had been contacted by congressional staff. Dodson met that day with two ATF supervisors. According to their written contemporaneous accounts, Dodson was vague but claimed that Voth had always "treated him like shit" and that it "felt good" to speak with someone outside ATF.

Dodson appeared on the CBS Evening News a week later. As Voth watched the program from his living room, he says, he wanted to vomit. He saw sentences from his "schism" e-mail reproduced on the TV screen. But CBS didn't quote the portions of Voth's e-mail that described how the group was divided by "petty arguing" and "adolescent behavior." Instead, CBS claimed the schism had been caused by opposition to gun walking (such alleged opposition is not discussed anywhere in the e-mail, which is below). CBS asserted that Dodson and others had protested the tactic "over and over," and then quoted portions of Voth's e-mail in a way that left the impression that gun walking was endorsed at headquarters. CBS contacted the ATF (but not Voth directly). The result was a report that incorrectly painted Voth as zealously promoting gun walking. (A CBS spokeswoman, Sonya McNair, says CBS does not publicly discuss its editorial process but notes, "The White House has already acknowledged the truth of our report.")

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/

Meanwhile, gunning running in Arizona is so easy that in Phoenix's Maricopa County there are 853 registered gun dealers. This is Sheriff Joe Arpaio's county lol. Fast and furious...

[z0sa]

As long as I'm on the fence with a humongous heavily populated corrupt third world country I want to have "lax" gun laws on my side, tbh... I know there are plenty of issues with this approach but it's just a trump card that can't be overcome in my case.