View Full Version : Heat: Jackson: James still lacks MJ's titles
ambchang
10-09-2012, 02:52 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/story/_/id/8481973/phil-jackson-lebron-james-miami-heat-tools-equal-michael-jordan-legacy
Not sure if this article has been posted.
I disagree with Jackson, not that I am saying James is never going to be as good or better than Jordan, but at the end of James' career, no matter what he does between now and then, James will not exceed Jordan, and that he will not be the greatest of all time.
The reason I have is not because of the number or rings, as I am still maintaining that is a narrow and lazy approach to evaluate a player's greatness, but more in the lines of what James did his first year as a Heat.
What James did in Cleveland was no fault of his own. His team sucked, and he couldn't win a championship because of it. We all learned that no matter how great and dominating a player is, he can't win a ring by himself, and James' Cleveland days proved it. But what he did in 2011 was a monumental collapse that could not be overlooked.
Jordan never went through the same level of down fall in his career. Sure he lost in the playoffs, but his team was out-matched by the opposition every single time. While in 2012, James' Heat fell to the Mavs despite being a heavy favourite. Dirk put on a performance of a life-time that was unbelievable and dominating, but that was the performance we expect out of the players who are in line for the GOAT title, not his opposition.
lefty
10-09-2012, 02:57 PM
So based on the rings theory, Robert Horry shits on MJ
Bill_Brasky
10-09-2012, 03:17 PM
Kareem is the true GOAT.
So based on the rings theory, Robert Horry shits on MJ
People who throw out the Robert Horry red herring to make their case are retards. These are the same faggots who get butthurt over Dan Marino not winning a ring, and to justify his chokage they'll bring up a similar "well, Trent Dilfer must be great!" argument.
We're talking about/comparing great players only.
STOP BEING RETARDED.
lefty
10-09-2012, 03:39 PM
People who throw out the Robert Horry red herring to make their case are retards. These are the same faggots who get butthurt over Dan Marino not winning a ring, and to justify his chokage they'll bring up a similar "well, Trent Dilfer must be great!" argument.
We're talking about/comparing great players only.
STOP BEING RETARDED.
MJ shits on Kobe
Medvedenko
10-09-2012, 04:12 PM
MJ shits on Kobe
The amount of posts you have shits on your life.....
Juggity
10-09-2012, 04:13 PM
James can surpass Jordan, definitely. It all depends on the number of dominating playoff performances he can rack up. Rings are a part of the equation, finals MVPs are the crowning achievement.
Trainwreck2100
10-09-2012, 04:22 PM
Mj shits on Kobe but it's pretty interesting that Phil didn't call asterisk on lebrons first ring
http://espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/story/_/id/8481973/phil-jackson-lebron-james-miami-heat-tools-equal-michael-jordan-legacy
Not sure if this article has been posted.
I disagree with Jackson, not that I am saying James is never going to be as good or better than Jordan, but at the end of James' career, no matter what he does between now and then, James will not exceed Jordan, and that he will not be the greatest of all time.
The reason I have is not because of the number or rings, as I am still maintaining that is a narrow and lazy approach to evaluate a player's greatness, but more in the lines of what James did his first year as a Heat.
What James did in Cleveland was no fault of his own. His team sucked, and he couldn't win a championship because of it. We all learned that no matter how great and dominating a player is, he can't win a ring by himself, and James' Cleveland days proved it. But what he did in 2011 was a monumental collapse that could not be overlooked.
Jordan never went through the same level of down fall in his career. Sure he lost in the playoffs, but his team was out-matched by the opposition every single time. While in 2012, James' Heat fell to the Mavs despite being a heavy favourite. Dirk put on a performance of a life-time that was unbelievable and dominating, but that was the performance we expect out of the players who are in line for the GOAT title, not his opposition.
So, nevermind the fact that James followed up that "downfall" with a regular season MVP, Finals MVP, NBA Championship and an Olympic gold medal the following year, the first year he was with a different team he was supposed to win the championship against a team that swept the defending champs. Ok.
If Dirk didn't go God mode and Jet didn't rain 3s like nobody's business, and if the Heat won that series, no one talks about James' woes except Bob Costas perhaps. Face it, you're judging James based on the fact that they lost, which is in itself a rings argument.
LkrFan
10-09-2012, 04:25 PM
Kareem is the true GOAT.
This. :toast
LkrFan
10-09-2012, 04:26 PM
The amount of posts you have shits on your life.....
:lol
So using the "COUNT DA RINGZZZ" argument Bill Russell is the undisputed GOAT and MJ merely sniffs the top 10?
Koolaid_Man
10-09-2012, 06:25 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/story/_/id/8481973/phil-jackson-lebron-james-miami-heat-tools-equal-michael-jordan-legacy
Not sure if this article has been posted.
I disagree with Jackson, not that I am saying James is never going to be as good or better than Jordan, but at the end of James' career, no matter what he does between now and then, James will not exceed Jordan, and that he will not be the greatest of all time.
The reason I have is not because of the number or rings, as I am still maintaining that is a narrow and lazy approach to evaluate a player's greatness, but more in the lines of what James did his first year as a Heat.
What James did in Cleveland was no fault of his own. His team sucked, and he couldn't win a championship because of it. We all learned that no matter how great and dominating a player is, he can't win a ring by himself, and James' Cleveland days proved it. But what he did in 2011 was a monumental collapse that could not be overlooked.
Jordan never went through the same level of down fall in his career. Sure he lost in the playoffs, but his team was out-matched by the opposition every single time. While in 2012, James' Heat fell to the Mavs despite being a heavy favourite. Dirk put on a performance of a life-time that was unbelievable and dominating, but that was the performance we expect out of the players who are in line for the GOAT title, not his opposition.
I will remeber det shit next time ur faggot ass gets ta popping off at da mouth bout Kobe being gifted Gasol, Dwight, and Nash :lol
Koolaid_Man
10-09-2012, 06:28 PM
People who throw out the Robert Horry red herring to make their case are retards. These are the same faggots who get butthurt over Dan Marino not winning a ring, and to justify his chokage they'll bring up a similar "well, Trent Dilfer must be great!" argument.
We're talking about/comparing great players only.
STOP BEING RETARDED.
^ :lol let him be bliss...
and 4 da record Horry was never an All-Star when he rang so it's a self defeating argument...
redzero
10-09-2012, 06:29 PM
The amount of posts you have shits on your life.....
Kobe's cousin with the brutal haymaker.
ambchang
10-09-2012, 07:49 PM
I will remeber det shit next time ur faggot ass gets ta popping off at da mouth bout Kobe being gifted Gasol, Dwight, and Nash :lol
Losing with a stacked team and not inning with a bad team are two different things. Not being in the playoffs with a bad team and not winning it all with a bad team are also two different things
ambchang
10-09-2012, 07:52 PM
So, nevermind the fact that James followed up that "downfall" with a regular season MVP, Finals MVP, NBA Championship and an Olympic gold medal the following year, the first year he was with a different team he was supposed to win the championship against a team that swept the defending champs. Ok.
If Dirk didn't go God mode and Jet didn't rain 3s like nobody's business, and if the Heat won that series, no one talks about James' woes except Bob Costas perhaps. Face it, you're judging James based on the fact that they lost, which is in itself a rings argument.
I am it discounting the 2012 season, but Jordan had like 5 of those. I am counting the 2011 season though but not becaus the heat lost, it's because the heat lost while Lebron sucked. I can't think of any of the goats having A errible series while his team lost with a better team and lots of help.
The amount of posts you have shits on your life.....
:lmao
I am it discounting the 2012 season, but Jordan had like 5 of those. I am counting the 2011 season though but not becaus the heat lost, it's because the heat lost while Lebron sucked. I can't think of any of the goats having A errible series while his team lost with a better team and lots of help.
Every "goat" has exclusive attributes in their careers. You cannot say, for example, that because MJ never played center like Magic, he's not as good, or that because Magic doesn't have 6 rings that he wasn't as good, or that Bird wasn't good because he never repeated. You cannot compare everyone to MJ's attributes to show how they won't ever be considered the greatest of all time. People get there in different ways, and you seem to be marking off the MJ list that no one else is working from.
As good as MJ was, he was a media darling and advertising whore. He advertised everything under the sun. He was world popular not because he won, but because he dominated in the one on one game. Winning just validated his greatness. James is winning, and he's a world famous superstar. He will get even bigger if he continues to win (which I think he will). Sure he doesn't have the killer instinct that MJ had, but Kobe does and he'll never be considered as good as MJ because he played close second string for most of his rings.
apalisoc_9
10-09-2012, 08:54 PM
:lol
lol dumbfck
lefty
10-09-2012, 09:30 PM
The amount of posts you have shits on your life.....
I still shit on you
Medvedenk:lol
Retarded bandwagon Lakers fan :lol
Thinks Kobie is as good as MJ :lol
Glorified Pippen :lol
Trying to be funny :lol
Lives in his parents basement :lol
venky
10-09-2012, 10:37 PM
Meh. Don't really care for the overrated, media created superstar known as Michael Jordan.
Kareem Abdul Jabbar seriously gets the short end of the stick in the GOAT debate. He's my ideal basketball player. It's too bad he never sold out and was never media friendly. Maybe then he'd get his proper due.
Meh. Don't really care for the overrated, media created superstar known as Michael Jordan.
Kareem Abdul Jabbar seriously gets the short end of the stick in the GOAT debate. He's my ideal basketball player. It's too bad he never sold out and was never media friendly. Maybe then he'd get his proper due.
If he sold out AAU teams would have good post play, tbh...
venky
10-10-2012, 02:35 AM
If he sold out AAU teams would have good post play, tbh...
Haha, definitely agree. AAU is disgusting with it's complete lack of players that have fundamentals.
Latarian Milton
10-10-2012, 03:55 AM
MJ was just god of the game and don't see no one coming nearly as good anytime soon. neither kobe nor bron has ever been close to the height of jordan, which's a simple fact that most laker fans seem to have a hard time accepting
ambchang
10-10-2012, 08:04 AM
Every "goat" has exclusive attributes in their careers. You cannot say, for example, that because MJ never played center like Magic, he's not as good, or that because Magic doesn't have 6 rings that he wasn't as good, or that Bird wasn't good because he never repeated. You cannot compare everyone to MJ's attributes to show how they won't ever be considered the greatest of all time. People get there in different ways, and you seem to be marking off the MJ list that no one else is working from.
As good as MJ was, he was a media darling and advertising whore. He advertised everything under the sun. He was world popular not because he won, but because he dominated in the one on one game. Winning just validated his greatness. James is winning, and he's a world famous superstar. He will get even bigger if he continues to win (which I think he will). Sure he doesn't have the killer instinct that MJ had, but Kobe does and he'll never be considered as good as MJ because he played close second string for most of his rings.
Ahhhh, but this is not talking about different attributes, it's about not showing up when it matters. Lebron did it once, Jordan never did. The concept is to evaluate a player through his triumphs as well as his failures. Jordan failed early in his career, but those were easily explainable with the level of competition vs. those of his supporting cast. Lebron can't play that card because he created his own super team, and failed to deliver in a spectacular fashion. The entire point isn't the fact that Lebron failed to win a championship in 2011, it's how he failed to win it. Nobody would count it against Lebron for losing to the Magic in the ECF, because Lebron was spectacular, he was dominating, just that his teammates sucked. On the other hand, vs. the Mavs, it was Lebron who sucked.
JRHernandez88
10-10-2012, 08:54 AM
Lol @ the misleading title. The interview in general compliments LeBron. But regardless, hes only 27. How many titles did Jordan have at that age again?
Lol @ the misleading title. The interview in general compliments LeBron. But regardless, hes only 27. How many titles did Jordan have at that age again?
Stfu faggot
JRHernandez88
10-10-2012, 09:22 AM
Lol internet thuggin'... lets internet fight :cheer
Lol internet thuggin'... lets internet fight :cheer
Lol internet dumbass... Real life be@ner
JRHernandez88
10-10-2012, 09:37 AM
Lol internet dumbass... Real life be@ner
Lol internet dumbass??? Do you comprehend the situation? It appears to me that im talking basketball in a basketball forum while your talking out your ass like you know me... lmao. And lol @ 4500+ posts on a forum thats not even a team of your interest. Thats lame bro should I be offended by a person who spends his free time thuggin over internet? You boys are softer then a coupes seats.
ambchang
10-10-2012, 09:52 AM
Lol @ the misleading title. The interview in general compliments LeBron. But regardless, hes only 27. How many titles did Jordan have at that age again?
Issues with ESPN title wouldn't be the first.
Jordan won his first ring in season 7, Lebron 8. Number of years in the league is probably a better indicator than age does not show how many "tries" a player had before winning the big one.
That said, the number of rings at what age/season doesn't mean anything, there are other more important variables such as competition, coaching, teammates, and such. The greatness of an individual should be judged solely on the level of an individual performance under the circumstances, and not that of team accomplishments. Of course there are such basic team accomplishments that should be achieved by the truly great ones regardless of teammates (mostly regular season accomplishments as playoff teams have more time to prepare, thus, concentrate on another team's weakness much better), but playoff glory is, in most cases, a team accomplishments. There are only two teams that I can think of who won a championship with a weak supporting cast (relatively), the 94 Rockets and the 03 Spurs, but both teams were very similarly constructed (superstar inside player, rough interior defender sidekick, lots of three point shooters) that it could be argued is more the product of a system rather than those of individual glory.
JRHernandez88
10-10-2012, 10:08 AM
Issues with ESPN title wouldn't be the first.
Jordan won his first ring in season 7, Lebron 8. Number of years in the league is probably a better indicator than age does not show how many "tries" a player had before winning the big one.
That said, the number of rings at what age/season doesn't mean anything, there are other more important variables such as competition, coaching, teammates, and such. The greatness of an individual should be judged solely on the level of an individual performance under the circumstances, and not that of team accomplishments. Of course there are such basic team accomplishments that should be achieved by the truly great ones regardless of teammates (mostly regular season accomplishments as playoff teams have more time to prepare, thus, concentrate on another team's weakness much better), but playoff glory is, in most cases, a team accomplishments. There are only two teams that I can think of who won a championship with a weak supporting cast (relatively), the 94 Rockets and the 03 Spurs, but both teams were very similarly constructed (superstar inside player, rough interior defender sidekick, lots of three point shooters) that it could be argued is more the product of a system rather than those of individual glory.
Yes, i agree with that. All variables should be considered when comparing greats. Im not saying that LeBron is going to surpass Jordan just yet but the stats and awards are already piling up and the guys still just in the beggining of his prime. That being said though, he still has alot to accomplish. Hes definatelly an all-time great though when its all said and done. Basketballs never seen an athlete quite like him.
Ahhhh, but this is not talking about different attributes, it's about not showing up when it matters. Lebron did it once, Jordan never did. The concept is to evaluate a player through his triumphs as well as his failures. Jordan failed early in his career, but those were easily explainable with the level of competition vs. those of his supporting cast. Lebron can't play that card because he created his own super team, and failed to deliver in a spectacular fashion. The entire point isn't the fact that Lebron failed to win a championship in 2011, it's how he failed to win it. Nobody would count it against Lebron for losing to the Magic in the ECF, because Lebron was spectacular, he was dominating, just that his teammates sucked. On the other hand, vs. the Mavs, it was Lebron who sucked.
If you are arguing that Jordan's career numbers trump James' 27 year old numbers, you won't have a debate at all. However, your initial post claimed that, no matter what James does, he won't surpass MJ because he had a bad series. He's been to the Finals 3 times already, every single time was by and large because of him. If he runs off 3 or 4 in a row which is very possible, there's no way you can say his career won't be comparable to MJ's. MJ was never on a team that had the scoring options the Heat has, but then no one averages 35 a game these days and those who try end up shitting on the rest of the team (think Kobe). James has the combination game that we've not seen since Jordan, and I can imagine him winning a DPOY and MVP in the same season. I cannot imagine Kobe winning both.
ambchang
10-10-2012, 07:54 PM
Talent wise, Lebron is probably the only one who could approach Jordan. But like I said earlier, because of his monumental collaps in2011, he will never have what has no matter what he does from this point on, because his résumé has been tainted. It's like an architect who built a house that stunk, had support issues, then mold and had to be demolished. Even if he built 10 magnificent buildings in the future, he will never be as great as the one who only had 10 great buildings and no bad ones.
Killakobe81
10-11-2012, 10:35 AM
Lol good ole amb! If rings are your SOLE criteria you are correct. I don't think you should use any SINGLE CRITERIA when seperating the best of the best. Stats, advanced stats, rings, impact, on the game clutch moments should all be factors. Team sport or not the best of the best win. That is a huge reason why many take Duncan over Malone, Worthy over Nique, Russell over Wilt and MJ over LBJ. Is that the only reasons? No Malone tended to choke, Nique was selfish, Wilt too. But the object is to win and that should be tiebreaker when two players are close. Horry ain't close to MJ so that argument is silly. Kareem is close to MJ so I would argue his impact on his 6 is greater than Kareem's on his ...
Killakobe81
10-11-2012, 10:43 AM
Since I have been watching ball only 4 truly great players failed to ring ... Chuck, EwingStockton and Malone. Magic and Bird cock blocked them early and MJ/Hakeem/Duncan and Shaqobe after that. They are great players Nique and Ewing too but they are NOT better then those guys who rang ...the titles just validate what you already know. Yes, Duncan, Shaq even MJ neede HOF help to win and Ewing never had that
But Hakeem didn't have a HOF on his first title team and he beat Ewing head2head ...again, the ring matters.
Koolaid_Man
10-11-2012, 10:54 AM
Since I have been watching ball only 4 truly great players failed to ring ... Chuck, EwingStockton and Malone. Magic and Bird cock blocked them early and MJ/Hakeem/Duncan and Shaqobe after that. They are great players Nique and Ewing too but they are NOT better then those guys who rang ...the titles just validate what you already know. Yes, Duncan, Shaq even MJ neede HOF help to win and Ewing never had that
But Hakeem didn't have a HOF on his first title team and he beat Ewing head2head ...again, the ring matters.
Let's not forget about Chris Paul...he didn't ring either...and I don't really count asterisk season rings.
Clipper Nation
10-11-2012, 10:59 AM
Talent wise, Lebron is probably the only one who could approach Jordan. But like I said earlier, because of his monumental collaps in2011, he will never have what has no matter what he does from this point on, because his résumé has been tainted. It's like an architect who built a house that stunk, had support issues, then mold and had to be demolished. Even if he built 10 magnificent buildings in the future, he will never be as great as the one who only had 10 great buildings and no bad ones.
By that logic, Jordan's repeated ownage by the Celtics and Pistons and his washed-up years in Washington cancel out his rings, tbh......
ambchang
10-11-2012, 12:13 PM
The Celtics and Pistons beat the Bulls, but Jordan was not horrible in those series like Lebron was in the 2011 series. I am not trying to draw a black and white case where I am expecting the greatest player of all time to not lose one series in his life, but those late 80s Bulls were no where close to Celtics and the Pistons in terms of talent and/or coaching. He still dominate games, and didn't come up with horrible games and withered in the 4th quarter like James did vs. the Mavs.
ambchang
10-11-2012, 12:17 PM
Lol good ole amb! If rings are your SOLE criteria you are correct. I don't think you should use any SINGLE CRITERIA when seperating the best of the best. Stats, advanced stats, rings, impact, on the game clutch moments should all be factors. Team sport or not the best of the best win. That is a huge reason why many take Duncan over Malone, Worthy over Nique, Russell over Wilt and MJ over LBJ. Is that the only reasons? No Malone tended to choke, Nique was selfish, Wilt too. But the object is to win and that should be tiebreaker when two players are close. Horry ain't close to MJ so that argument is silly. Kareem is close to MJ so I would argue his impact on his 6 is greater than Kareem's on his ...
The number of rings, and whether somebody is close to another has no bearings whatsoever. Players should be judged strictly on individual accomplishments. Of course, team success given the circumstances should be factored in, as in Lebron failing to ring in 2011 despite a huge talent advantage over the Mavs in 2011, or Kobe's epic failure in 2004 and questionable performance in 2008 Finals.
My point is, a player should be judged on his successes as well as his failures as a whole body of work.
ambchang
10-11-2012, 12:22 PM
Since I have been watching ball only 4 truly great players failed to ring ... Chuck, EwingStockton and Malone. Magic and Bird cock blocked them early and MJ/Hakeem/Duncan and Shaqobe after that. They are great players Nique and Ewing too but they are NOT better then those guys who rang ...the titles just validate what you already know. Yes, Duncan, Shaq even MJ neede HOF help to win and Ewing never had that
But Hakeem didn't have a HOF on his first title team and he beat Ewing head2head ...again, the ring matters.
Ewing wasn't even close to Hakeem in terms of talent, Ewing wasn't even close to Robinson or Shaq. In every head to head matchup, Ewing comes up bottoms. I liked Ewing as a player, but he was easily one of the most overrated stars in the 90s. He was not on the same level as Barkley and Stockton.
Nique was a fantastic player, people do not see that instead of having McHale, Parish, DJ and Walton, he had Mo Cheeks (who was pretty good), Kevin Willis (great rebounder, physical but average defender) and Jon Koncak. I am not saying that he is as good as Bird, but if you switch Nique and Bird, he would have at least made the finals, or possibly even won. If you switch Nique and Worthy, there is no doubt Nique would have won a title. No, Worthy was not better than Nique, he just had Magic, Kareem, Scott and Cooper next to him.
Killakobe81
10-11-2012, 01:39 PM
So where does losing to an 8th seed or being backdoor swept while having hca leave Tim?
Killakobe81
10-11-2012, 01:44 PM
Of course failures matter, but less so when you win multiple times. I remember plenty games when Kobe, Shaq and even Magic failed in the clutch. But so has Bird, LBJ and Tim as ling as you win the success overrides those failures that is why it matters so much. LOL failing in the first or second round better than failing in the finals ...
Killakobe81
10-11-2012, 01:47 PM
Nique was a far more prolific scorer but Worthy was the better team-mate leader and had.amazing post moves. You know worthy reminds me of certain center disguised as a of and the same arguments could be made if you changed.the names to Duncan and Malone.
ambchang
10-11-2012, 02:16 PM
So where does losing to an 8th seed or being backdoor swept while having hca leave Tim?
Of course failures matter, but less so when you win multiple times. I remember plenty games when Kobe, Shaq and even Magic failed in the clutch. But so has Bird, LBJ and Tim as ling as you win the success overrides those failures that is why it matters so much. LOL failing in the first or second round better than failing in the finals ...
When he was over the hill? I mean, you are not going to talk about the mid 90's Magic or the Washington Jordan now, will you?
I will see what Lebron will do when he's over the hill, my guess is that he is a smart guy, and will hang it up before he's totally done.
Nique was a far more prolific scorer but Worthy was the better team-mate leader and had.amazing post moves. You know worthy reminds me of certain center disguised as a of and the same arguments could be made if you changed.the names to Duncan and Malone.
Nique was never given the chance to be a great team-mate, he did well even during his Clippers day, and was quite a teammate when he was waaaaay over the hill with the Spurs for that lone season. Sure, Worthy is probably the one with the better post moves, and even ball-handling, but Nique was undoubtedly the better player.
As for your last sentence, don't mind if you can rewrite, I have trouble trying to get what you meant. Seriously.
Killakobe81
10-11-2012, 03:40 PM
Sorry my phone is killing me amb, the st is more phone friendly but still sux we will continue it later.
1. Lebron will not retire willingly. He will chose money over what some dippy headed fuck on a forum thinks of his legacy.
2. Tim has never been compared to MJ by anyone who's not autistic, retarded or both.
3. No shit James only has one title. Senility?
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