View Full Version : Who is the best backup pg the Spurs have had in recent history?
Libri
10-09-2012, 06:14 PM
I'm thinking since the first championship. Is it Manu? :lol
Leetonidas
10-09-2012, 06:48 PM
Since the first? Speedy Claxton, easily. Then probably Brent Barry, when he was used in that scenario. I know Manu is the de facto PG sometimes but I wouldn't count him. TJ Ford was great last season as well, when he was on the court. Beno played well in the beginning and slowly got worse, especially in the playoffs against full court pressure. The worst has to be Roger Mason, though
Claxton was sometimes better than Parker, tbh...
therealtruth
10-09-2012, 08:25 PM
With as good a shooting team we have we really need a pass first point guard as a backup. I don't think a guy like Green would have gone cold if he had a pass first point guard looking for him. Even playing with Manu would have probably helped Green more. Parker can get assists but he doesn't make the players around him better. Parker gets assists because everybody on the team can shoot. A pass first PG gets players easy baskets when their struggling to help get their confidence going.
sananspursfan21
10-09-2012, 09:50 PM
i dont think antonio daniels was bad was he?
ChuckD
10-09-2012, 10:00 PM
i dont think antonio daniels was bad was he?
AD was no more a PG than GHill was.
I'd have to go with Speedy, followed by Vaughn.
RuffnReadyOzStyle
10-09-2012, 10:23 PM
Speedy. He was phenomenal for about 3 months when we really needed him.
Mills may we get into that group though - kid has major upside. And he's from my home town! :D
Worst was easily Van Exel.
TDMVPDPOY
10-10-2012, 12:08 AM
tony parker was speedy claxtons backup
Beno probably though the dude totally melts under pressure. George Hill has a better case but he will never be a true PG.
timvp
10-10-2012, 02:20 AM
George Hill by far.
The legend of Speedy never ceases to amaze. Outside of the Finals, 2005 Beno > 2003 Speedy.
My order since 2003 judged by how well they performed their role:
2011 Hill
2010 Hill
2007 Vaughn
2005 Beno
2003 Speedy/Kerr
2012 Neal
2009 RMJ
2006 Beno/NVE
2004 Hart/Ward
2008 Hodgepodge
2007 Vaughn was a beast defender. 2008 Vaughn was old and Pop kept shuffling who backed up Parker. I still have nightmares of the Hornets trapping Manu as he brings the ball up the court and turns it over four times in a row. (That was the last time Manu was the actual backup point guard -- and for good reason. Great creator in the halfcourt but not who you want to bring the ball up the court.)
The legend of Speedy never ceases to amaze. Outside of the Finals, 2005 Beno > 2003 Speedy.
Do we even ring in 03' without Speedy being there to bail Parkers ass out? Who knows if TJ Ford wouldve stayed healthy, he mightve been able to do the same in the WCF and we might have one for the thumb right now. I knew as soon as he was out there was a good chance of it coming back to haunt us. :depressed
timvp
10-10-2012, 02:32 AM
^ Kerr bailed out Claxton in Game 6 against the Mavs. That team, outside of Duncan, was all about going with who was hottest. Every other player got bailed out during the run. Holding it against Parker for only outplaying Kidd for half the Finals instead of the entire Finals is pretty tough when he was about 13 years old at the time.
Still Pop's best coaching job ever and top five in NBA history.
Sean Cagney
10-10-2012, 02:33 AM
Do we even ring in 03' without Speedy being there to bail Parkers ass out? Who knows if TJ Ford wouldve stayed healthy, he mightve been able to do the same in the WCF and we might have one for the thumb right now. I knew as soon as he was out there was a good chance of it coming back to haunt us. :depressed
I agree, plus Tony was on the bench at key times in 03 and they would put in Speedy and even Kerr in game 6 etc. Tony was MIA in the big moments that year in later rounds it seemed (Sides game two which he almost won against NJ). Speedy was a key reason we won late, and LOL at TIMVP saying sides finals for Beno, well BENO went puss in the finals and had to sit, Barry got more time when Tony and him pussed out, PERIOD. Barry was the key ball handler alot, why is he not on a list there of the good at backup PG? I wonder why.
^ Kerr bailed out Claxton in Game 6 against the Mavs. That team, outside of Duncan, was all about going with who was hottest. Every other player got bailed out during the run. Holding it against Parker for only outplaying Kidd for half the Finals instead of the entire Finals is pretty tough when he was about 13 years old at the time.
Still Pop's best coaching job ever and top five in NBA history.
How did Kerry bail out Claxton? You mean PARKER mainly who was on the bench and was the teams starter? Claxton had some key moments I remember in that run, Kerr had that game and game 5 against NJ at their house! How did Kerr bail out Claxton when he was not the starter nor supposed to be a key to the team? Tony was sitting again, yes he was young but dude dissapeared in BIG games regularly! BIGTIME.
ElNono
10-10-2012, 02:34 AM
Claxton did it when it mattered, tbh. There's always something to be said about that... see: Matt Bonner, RJ, Tony Parker, etc...
Youre an undercover TP apologist, timvpimp. If Kerr bailed out anyone it was Parker who IIRC didnt even play that entire 4th quarter vs the Mavs, unless you expected Speedy to contribute big every game then he couldnt be 'bailed out'. When do you blame Parker? Because you didnt blame him this past season either because according to you it wasnt his fault that he wasnt good enough to get us to the Finals.
timvp
10-10-2012, 02:42 AM
How did Kerry bail out Claxton? You mean PARKER mainly who was on the bench and was the teams starter? Claxton had some key moments I remember in that run, Kerr had that game and game 5 against NJ at their house! How did Kerr bail out Claxton when he was not the starter nor supposed to be a key to the team? Tony was sitting again, yes he was young but dude dissapeared in BIG games regularly! BIGTIME.
:lmao Ah, I give up.
timvp
10-10-2012, 02:43 AM
Youre an undercover TP apologist, timvpimp. If Kerr bailed out anyone it was Parker who IIRC didnt even play that entire 4th quarter vs the Mavs, unless you expected Speedy to contribute big every game then he couldnt be 'bailed out'. When do you blame Parker? Because you didnt blame him this past season either because according to you it wasnt his fault that he wasnt good enough to get us to the Finals.
:lol You two need to rewatch that game and then come back to this thread.
Sean Cagney
10-10-2012, 02:47 AM
:lol You two need to rewatch that game and then come back to this thread.
I Know TONY THE STARTER was on the bench in the late half of that game, the starter younger or not he was on the bench! Nobody expected Speedy to save the team! He played well when he had to and in stretches but Tony was the Starter! He routinely sat in big games in 03 and 05 because he could not handle the pressure, fact. I am a Tony fan as a Spurs fan but he pussed out alot Timvp! He would sit during key stretches and just seemed a mental midget against certain teams in crunch time, he would be on the bench cheering (Fact). Speedy had a bad game you say in game 6, okay Tony did too and was on the bench! One was a starter though and the other tried to spell him and then Pop went to Kerr for desperation! IT WORKED. Tony though was the starter.
Are you suggesting Speedy is the main reason the Spurs got dominated for 3 quarters that game or that Tony played a role in the comeback ?
timvp
10-10-2012, 02:50 AM
I Know TONY THE STARTER was on the bench in the late half of that game, the starter younger or not he was on the bench! Nobody expected Speedy to save the team! He played well when he had to and in stretches but Tony was the Starter! He routinely sat in big games in 03 and 05 because he could not handle the pressure, fact. I am a Tony fan as a Spurs fan but he pussed out alot Timvp! He would sit during key stretches and just seemed a mental midget against certain teams in crunch time, he would be on the bench cheering (Fact). Speedy had a bad game you say in game 6, okay Tony did too and was on the bench! One was a starter though and the other tried to spell him and then Pop went to Kerr for desperation! IT WORKED. Tony though was the starter.
Are you suggesting Speedy is the main reason the Spurs got dominated for 3 quarters that game or that Tony played a role in the comeback ?
If you didn't watch the game at the time, at least go back and read recaps so you can actually know what happened in that game. Go to Google, read how Game 6 played out, come back to the thread. :tu
Sean Cagney
10-10-2012, 02:52 AM
If you didn't watch the game at the time, at least go back and read recaps so you can actually know what happened in that game. Go to Google, read how Game 6 played out, come back to the thread. :tu
How did Tony do in that game? I am serious too TIMVP! Speedy might have had a bad game yes, but did he help us at all during the run when Tony stalled at times, YES HELL YES! Kerr did it in this game, but if he bailed out SPEEDY then he bailed out TONY who was on the bench too right? I don't get your point here because our starter was on the bench late in game 6.
ElNono
10-10-2012, 02:57 AM
You know, don't want to put salt on the wound, but that Game 6 comeback started with that rookie Manu steal and dunk on RJ... Gino obviously always comes up with game-changing plays, unlike other dudes from France who shall remain nameless, tbh...
^I think hes talking about the Game 6 against Dallas tbh, although as usual Manu played a role in that comeback as well. Tony Parker had like cramps or some other made-up injury apparently, was so common to see him disappear that year that I completely forgot about it even though I do remember watching that game.
timvp
10-10-2012, 03:03 AM
:lol This thread has turned pretty comical with the CoM tripping over themselves to find ways to further their agenda.
I guess a preseason is needed for everyone.
You got us on that one I guess. Dont see how that minimizes what Speedy did though, cause Tony disappeared plenty that year even if we exclude that game.
:lol This thread has turned pretty comical with the CoM tripping over themselves to find ways to further their agenda.
I guess a preseason is needed for everyone.
To be fair, certain Argentinians ARE game-changers... too bad a certain one can't bring up the ball...
jesterbobman
10-10-2012, 04:15 AM
Hill is definitely the best player amongst the bunch, the fact that he played with really good 32-35 year old Duncan rather than the ridiculously awesome 27 year old Duncan shouldn't be held against him. Also, the fact that Claxton occasionally outplayed per-pubescent TP, while Hill was backing up Prime TP makes it seem like maybe Claxton was better, but that's not the reality.
Ideally, Corey Joseph can become a Neal/Vaughn hybrid, capable defensively(Weakness of Neal and most of the good shooters we've had at backup PG), some ability to create for others(Doesn't need to be great with Manu as primary bench playmaker, just take a bit of pressure off of him) and enough shooting ability that he can't just be left alone.(Weakness of Vaughn and TJ Ford).
Obstructed_View
10-10-2012, 06:07 AM
Steve Kerr was the backup point guard most of that season as Speedy couldn't stay healthy. Speedy had the game of his life in the finals where he hit three or four 15 foot jumpers in a row for the first time in his entire career. He was left completely open because everyone knew he couldn't shoot and he came out with a Serge Ibaka like performance. Yes, he had a good game. No, he's not in the top five in Spurs' backup point guards since the '99 title.
The best backup point guard the Spurs had was probably Anthony Carter if they'd held on to him.
boutons_deux
10-10-2012, 08:31 AM
Speedy went to have have a great career, while Tony floundered and disappeared, proving who was superior.
Spurs Brazil
10-10-2012, 09:26 AM
I saw that game 6 against the Mavs during the offseason. The whole team was awful in the 1st half. Only Jax made some shots. Even TD was playing bad, his worst game of the series. TP was sick and Speedy did OK in the 1st half but was awful in the 3rd. Jax started the run with 2 triples and Kerr finished the job. Kerr also did a very good job playing D against Nash. Speedy was a non factor in that game.
Leetonidas
10-10-2012, 09:30 AM
I guess I kinda forgot about Hill somehow. He's definitely the best backup PG we've had overall. There was a point in time where people were arguing on this board whether to trade Tony and give the reigns to Hill. :lol Glad TP cleared that one up
If I can't go with Manu, I'll go with Parker who came off the bench vs the Suns ;) What a terrible series
Leetonidas
10-10-2012, 09:33 AM
I like to forget it ever happened. Getting swept by the Phoenix Suns was the most embarrassing moment of the TD era. I still have nightmares of Dudley and Amundson owning us :depressed
spurspokesman
10-10-2012, 10:04 AM
^ Kerr bailed out Claxton in Game 6 against the Mavs. That team, outside of Duncan, was all about going with who was hottest. Every other player got bailed out during the run. Holding it against Parker for only outplaying Kidd for half the Finals instead of the entire Finals is pretty tough when he was about 13 years old at the time.
Still Pop's best coaching job ever and top five in NBA history.
And Jax. Not just bailed out parker but our whole team lol. Epic game btw
spurspokesman
10-10-2012, 10:16 AM
Man I just watched that 03 comeback on dallas again and got hyped. Kerr and Jackson were fearless. Man I remember nearly breaking my wall and irritating my mother with loud jumping and fist pumping lol.
spurs_fan_in_exile
10-10-2012, 10:39 AM
Beno 2005 (prior to the finals) was the last time that I felt particularly good about backup PG, though I think that was at least partially shaded by the expectation that he wouldn't get fat and lazy in the years to come. I was just starting to really believe in TJ when he went down.
TDMVPDPOY
10-10-2012, 11:27 AM
2005 beno > tp
he fck up steve nash in 05 it wasnt funni how he was able to pick pocket nash PNR with amare...
spurraider21
10-10-2012, 11:59 AM
Speedy in literally one playoff run was awesome, for a few stretches at a time. Overall I think George hill is the easy answer. If you want playoff performance, check out the spurs mavs first round series. Hill had a 29 point game and was the reason we won that game and went on to live the series. Hill was so good that Parker trade rumors were swirling. All spurs fans were utterly shocked when Hill was moved. On the night of the draft and fr a few days I despised kawhi because he cost us hill
Sean Cagney
10-10-2012, 12:36 PM
Backup PG is hard to say, Hill I would have to go with although he played more like a 2 at times. He had the most talent though easily.
Sean Cagney
10-10-2012, 12:38 PM
I saw that game 6 against the Mavs during the offseason. The whole team was awful in the 1st half. Only Jax made some shots. Even TD was playing bad, his worst game of the series. TP was sick and Speedy did OK in the 1st half but was awful in the 3rd. Jax started the run with 2 triples and Kerr finished the job. Kerr also did a very good job playing D against Nash. Speedy was a non factor in that game.
Ehhhhh he was sick, Jordan had the flu game thats no excuse :rolleyes:lol. I remember Jax hitting those threes to keep them in it, the last one where he ran down the court yelling is my fave, the NO and then the YESSSSS! TD was playing awful, remember at one point Walt Williams had more pts and I was like we are in for a bad one tonight! I did not see that comeback coming on the road, saw a game 7 with anything happening and I was scared to death! ENTER KERR! That game kicked ass.
I like to forget it ever happened. Getting swept by the Phoenix Suns was the most embarrassing moment of the TD era. I still have nightmares of Dudley and Amundson owning us :depressed
Yeah I choose to forget that. I remember damn Dragic going like Isiah Thomas on us out there :( After owning PHX for al those years and beating Dallas in round one I was hoping for alot more. That series was horrible.
FromWayDowntown
10-10-2012, 01:10 PM
The funny thing about the retrospective effort to diminish Parker's role in 2003 is that the Spurs came home 3-1 up instead of tied or down 3-1 that year because Tony Parker was absolutely exceptional in Game 3 and played a very strong Game 4 despite a tough shooting night.
Points aren't everything, but in 2003, Parker came up big for the Spurs again and again and again:
- Game 3 of the First Round at Phoenix, goes 12-21 from the floor, scores 29 in a game the Spurs absolutely had to win.
- Game 5 against LA, goes 8-16 from the floor and 5-6 from the line, scoring 21 and playing 36 turnover free minutes in a game the Spurs had to have.
- Game 6 against LA, goes 9-19 from the floor and 7-10 from the line, scoring 27 in what ended up being a rout at Staples to close out the Lakers.
- Game 3 at Dallas, goes 13-23 from the floor and is absolutely unstoppable in screen and roll situations to seize back home court advantage against a 60-win team.
- Game 3 at New Jersey, goes 9-21 from the floor and 4-6 from three, with 6 assists and 1 turnover, putting up 26 in a Game the Spurs needed and won by 5.
It's easy to point at a couple of memorable situations in which Parker wasn't on the floor and claim that Claxton outplayed him, but those claims really have no corroboration with the facts. The truth is that if the Spurs had lost any of the games listed above, the road to the title ends or becomes considerably more difficult. But in each of those crucial situations, Tony Parker -- at age 20 -- came up huge for the Spurs.
They absolutely don't win a title in 2003 without him.
timvp
10-10-2012, 01:49 PM
Great post, FromWayDowntown. To think that Parker did what he did at a younger age than Cory Joseph is today is ridiculous. Add on top of that he was the first European point guard ever .... and it takes a very irrational person to think Parker was a disappointment in those playoffs.
Oh, and it's not like he was up against pushovers. Prime Marbury, 29-year-old Steve Nash and 30-year-old Jason Kidd in addition to the three-time defending champion Lakers would be a gauntlet for any point guard in history ... much less a 20-year-old point guard from France.
callo1
10-10-2012, 01:56 PM
Claxton did it when it mattered, tbh. There's always something to be said about that... see: Matt Bonner, RJ, Tony Parker, etc...
TP was a beast in the '07 Finals.
How quickly we forget.
sprrs
10-10-2012, 02:05 PM
^ Kerr bailed out Claxton in Game 6 against the Mavs.
IIRC, if anyone bailed anyone else out, it was Jackson. Kerr put the finishing touches on that run, but Jackson brought them back from the huge hole they were in.
And if we're looking at game 6, TP was suffering from food poisoning. It's understandable that he had a sub-par game.
FromWayDowntown
10-10-2012, 02:07 PM
TP was a beast in the '07 Finals.
How quickly we forget.
TP was a beast for a whole lot of the 2003 Playoffs, too.
ElNono
10-10-2012, 02:51 PM
George Hill was, at the most, serviceable at the backup PG spot. He either brought the ball up and handed it to Manu or called up some fucked up ISO. If Hill indeed was our best backup PG of the last 10 years or so, that only means we've been incredibly bad in that department.
TP was a beast in the '07 Finals.
I have it as 'okay' considering the competition, tbh...
timvp
10-10-2012, 03:03 PM
Since we're talking about it ....
In the first four games of the 2003 WCF, here's how TP and Nash stacked up:
Steve Nash
17.3 points
5.5 assists
3.0 turnovers
3.8 rebounds
.444 FG%
Tony Parker
22.8 points
4.3 assists
2.5 turnovers
4.0 rebounds
.473 FG%
:wow Parker owned Nash more than I remembered. Parker at age 20 dismantled a 29-year-old Nash who within the next three years would have two MVPs on his resume.
ElNono
10-10-2012, 03:38 PM
Steve Kerr was good enough to guard Nash in that series... He wasn't the 2x MVP yet back then...
BTW, wild stuff:
kO4caOwS6jI
Not sure we win that one with TP on the floor, tbh...
Since we're talking about it ....
In the first four games of the 2003 WCF, here's how TP and Nash stacked up:
Steve Nash
17.3 points
5.5 assists
3.0 turnovers
3.8 rebounds
.444 FG%
Tony Parker
22.8 points
4.3 assists
2.5 turnovers
4.0 rebounds
.473 FG%
:wow Parker owned Nash more than I remembered. Parker at age 20 dismantled a 29-year-old Nash who within the next three years would have two MVPs on his resume.
Yeah, the point is Parker is almost as inconsistent now as he was at 20. Its not like he lost that over the years. The following year he disappeared when we got back door swept by the Lakers and just this past season he disappeared for all but two quarters of Game 6 as we got backdoor swept by the Thunder.
timvp
10-10-2012, 04:03 PM
Yeah, the point is Parker is almost as inconsistent now as he was at 20.
:lol Since when was that the point?
CoM struggling to begin the preseason . . .
:lol Since when was that the point?
CoM struggling to begin the preseason . . .
Parker has shown over the years that its a flaw he has as a player. Its not his fault because he was 20, its not his fault he isnt good enough to have lead the team to the Finals last year, etc is weak. It is his fault that he has a tendency to disappear in the most inopportune and biggest of moments, and the fact that Speedy was one of the few back-ups that was able to step up when that happened validates the legend of Speedy.
timvp
10-10-2012, 04:54 PM
The irrationality is strong with this one.
therealtruth
10-10-2012, 05:43 PM
TP was a beast for a whole lot of the 2003 Playoffs, too.
That's why his play is so frustrating. How can you go from being a beast to non-factor that quickly. But he has done it enough times. If you get the accolades when you are beasting you also deserve the criticism when your play isn't up to par.
FromWayDowntown
10-10-2012, 06:20 PM
You can criticize all you want. I think most of the criticism is unwarranted, unless your standard for acceptability is somewhere near what's expected of superstars.
I don't think anyone would argue that Tony Parker is a superstar; I think most who can set talk about him rationally would agree that Parker is a star-level player who occasionally exceeds that level. Ultimately, the difference between a superstar and a star is always consistency. If stars were always great, they'd be superstars.
Leetonidas
10-10-2012, 11:10 PM
thanks for posting that nono, brought back some good memories. damn D-Rob looks like a kid on Christmas on the bench :lol
Nash must still have the smell of Spur semen in his skin. No way anyone has ever been shit on as much as that guy by one team.
You can criticize all you want. I think most of the criticism is unwarranted, unless your standard for acceptability is somewhere near what's expected of superstars.
I don't think anyone would argue that Tony Parker is a superstar; I think most who can set talk about him rationally would agree that Parker is a star-level player who occasionally exceeds that level. Ultimately, the difference between a superstar and a star is always consistency. If stars were always great, they'd be superstars.
Usually what separates the two is playing time and how their play effects the team. Carmelo is a great player, but his play does not elevate his team. Lebron James is a great player and his play elevates his team. A lot of that comes down to trying to hard to be a star instead of trying to be a basketball player.
TDMVPDPOY
10-10-2012, 11:32 PM
funni how u parker homers only bring up the good series, but dont bring up the bad series where his been expose...exposed so much that teams keep on using it against him when they adjust
lol celebrating 07 finals series playing against a scrub rookie who didnt even put up a fight just like that scrub lebron in that series...
therealtruth
10-11-2012, 12:32 AM
Another interesting thing about that video is that's when the Spurs used to be able to come back from deficits by playing tougher. Nowadays Pop just gives up and he wonders why his team has no fight. How do you impress the importance of a loss if you don't really experience it? Maybe if Pop hadn't given up game 3 they split in OKC. The nasty has been missing for a while and it starts with Pop. He does too much babying.
baseline bum
10-11-2012, 12:43 AM
You know, don't want to put salt on the wound, but that Game 6 comeback started with that rookie Manu steal and dunk on RJ... Gino obviously always comes up with game-changing plays, unlike other dudes from France who shall remain nameless, tbh...
By far the best Jefferson moment in Spurs history.
baseline bum
10-11-2012, 12:48 AM
Steve Kerr was the backup point guard most of that season as Speedy couldn't stay healthy. Speedy had the game of his life in the finals where he hit three or four 15 foot jumpers in a row for the first time in his entire career. He was left completely open because everyone knew he couldn't shoot and he came out with a Serge Ibaka like performance. Yes, he had a good game. No, he's not in the top five in Spurs' backup point guards since the '99 title.
The best backup point guard the Spurs had was probably Anthony Carter if they'd held on to him.
Gotta disagree; Carter's jumper made Vaughn's look like Larry Bird's.
Macca76
10-11-2012, 01:38 AM
To come back to the différence between a superstar and TP. another one would be the salary. TP cost the spurs basically 11 M$ per year in his entire carreer, roughly half of a superstar. He was and still is a bargain. I know it's not the point here but it's noteworthy. I don't see how people still manage to complain but haters gonna hate ;-)
Not relevant with the topic but at least as relevant as the TP bashing in this thread.
Parker homers/Manu homers. They play in the same house, they have different positions, they don't compete against each other for playing time. Good lord.
ElNono
10-11-2012, 06:50 PM
Parker homers/Manu homers. They play in the same house, they have different positions, they don't compete against each other for playing time. Good lord.
Manu has always been and will always be the better player though. IMO.
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