Debate: Biden vs. Ryan

[ploto]

” I don’t know how Paul will take on the debate,” Romney told CNN’s Wolf Blitzer. “Obviously the Vice President has done 15-20 debates in his lifetime—he is an experienced debater—I think this is Paul’s first debate. I may be wrong, he may have done something in high school we don’t know. But, it will be a new experience for Paul, but I am sure he will do fine...

Ryan has actually participated in at least eight debates during his fourteen years in Congress according to available articles and information provided by the Ryan campaign.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/10/mitt-romney-misstates-paul-ryans-debate-history/

[boutons_deux]

Gecko is way ahead in the blatant lying, con man, and fake strong man category. Will Ryan carry on? Will Ryan actually find the time do us some math? Gecko refuses to list his loopholes to close $5T in tax cuts.

[CosmicCowboy]

Boutons =

http://mat.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pMAT1-6593697enh-z6.jpg

Just Shake him and he spits out the same old shit.

[jack sommerset]

My bet is Ryan will take the old guy to the shed. Honestly, you can't run from the past 4 years. Biden will shoot off one liners as if he is at a democratic party trying to laugh his way out of the last 4 years and that won't go well with the independents. Thats my prediction. God bless

[rascal]

Ryan will be decleared the winner. He will be more passionate and aggressive and that is all it takes to win these debates.

[z0sa]

Very interested in this debate. I'm wondering if Ryan can connect the dots and shoot some solid answers.

[rascal]

Gecko is way ahead in the blatant lying, con man, and fake strong man category. Will Ryan carry on? Will Ryan actually find the time do us some math? Gecko refuses to list his loopholes to close $5T in tax cuts.
Don't expect any numbers from Ryan. They know that doesn't matter with most voters. Just win the style points, be on the aggressive offensive and make sure you get the last word in on every topic. It will be more of the same.

[mercos]

I expect Biden to be much more aggressive than Obama was. If he was smart, he would aim his attacks at Mitt Romney, and not Paul Ryan. Ryan is insignificant at this point, he has basically disappeared from the campaign. As for Ryan himself, I'm sure he will assault the economic record of the past four years. He's a numbers guy, so I expect a lot of numbers out of him.

[BRHornet45]

sons even dumb ass Sarah Palin held her own with Biden. I expect Ryan to sweep and mop the floor with this clown.

[Trainwreck2100]

here's how it's gonna go
Ryan"You didn't do what you said you would do 4 years ago, blah blah blah deficit blah blah blah taxes, yada yada not cutting social security etc etc. wait we are cutting social security but old people vote for us cause it won't happen to you.......................trying to kill big bird...........blah yada etc. me and mitt are gonna do all this shit even though we have no plan on how to do it, which is cool cause barack/biden had the same plan (promising to do shit but can't or won't) and they won so we'll win the same way. Yay red team America is fucked either way good night and God bless the United States of America.

[Juggity]

Honestly, Palin was way overmatched in 2008.

Ryan is less overmatched, but Biden is definitely on Clinton's level as someone who's actually able to connect with people and be sincere in a debate.

[Latarian Milton]

with the economy being the shittiest it's ever been since the great depression i think the obama team were doomed to end up on the losing side regardless of how hard they try, and it doesn't mean ryan & romney are better rhetoricians than obama and biden tbh

[boutons_deux]

Paul Ryan: The Lyin' King -- 10 of His Worst Campaign Fabrications

Mitt Romney pollster Neil Newhouse recently said that the Romney campaign is “not going to let our campaign be dictated by fact checkers.” If the past few weeks are any indication, Paul Ryan is sticking pretty close to that strategy. Here are his most recent lies, going back to his universally (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/08/paul-ryan-convention-speech-media-backlash.php) [4] fact-checked Republican National Convention speech. Come back: We’ll update throughout the rest of the campaign.

10. “I voted for the Budget Control Act. But the Obama Administration proposed $478 billion in defense cuts. We don’t agree with that, our budget rejected that, and then on top of that is another $500 billion in defense cuts in the sequester.” Truth:Ryan has been doing back flips to explain why he has been criticizing the Democrats for the $600 million “sequestration” cuts that will automatically go into effect if there’s no budget compromise by December. Ryan, in fact, voted for (http://thinkprogress.org/security/2012/09/09/816861/ryan-i-didnt-vote-for-the-defense-cuts-i-voted-for/) [5] those cuts. The sequestration cuts, along with $487 million in other defense cuts, were both a part of the Budget Control Act. (September 9, 2012) (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/understanding-the-battle-over-the-looming-defense-cuts/2012/09/10/3ba236ac-fb9c-11e1-b153-218509a954e1_blog.html) [6]

9. “And by the way, under President Clinton, we got welfare reform … which moved people from welfare to work, to get people out of poverty. President Obama is rolling back welfare reform.” Truth: President Obama granted (http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/2012/09/05/13683170-the-respite-from-the-welfare-lie-was-short-lived?lite) [7]several Republican governors new flexibility for how to implement welfare standards, but did not eliminate the current existing requirements. The claim about the work requirement was universally debunked by fact checkers, and by Bill Clinton. (September 5, 2012) (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/election-2012/wp/2012/09/05/paul-ryan-mentions-bill-clinton-amid-criticism-of-obama/) [8]

8. “Under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something … I was fast when I was younger, yeah.” Truth: Runner’s World (http://news.runnersworld.com/2012/08/31/paul-ryan-says-hes-run-sub-300-marathon/) [9]fact-checked Ryan’s claims that he had run a marathon in under three hours, and found that he is recorded to have finished in just over four hours. Ryan later backtracked (http://news.runnersworld.com/2012/08/31/paul-ryan-says-hes-run-sub-300-marathon/) [9]. (August 31, 2012) (http://www.hughhewitt.com/blog/g/3229320e-2c55-4122-93f1-2ebe4fbc8663) [10]

7. “When he talked about change, many people liked the sound of it, especially in Janesville, where we were about to lose a major factory. A lot of guys I went to high school with worked at that GM plant. Right there at that plant, candidate Obama said: ‘I believe that if our government is there to support you, this plant will be here for another hundred years.’ That’s what he said in 2008. Well, as it turned out, that plant didn’t last another year. It is locked up and empty to this day.” Truth: Ryan blamed Obama for the plant’s closure, but in reality (http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/08/paul-ryan-slams-obama-for-not-saving-auto-plant----in-2008.php) [11] the plant had closed before Obama was even sworn into office, during the Bush era. (August 29, 2012) (http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=975C4ED0-D2E7-513C-9D2659881038BEAE) [12]

6. “The stimulus was a case of political patronage, corporate welfare, and cronyism at their worst. You, the working men and women of this country, were cut out of the deal.” Truth: The non-partisan CBO estimates (http://www.salon.com/2012/08/30/paul_ryan_the_definitive_fact_check/) [13] that the stimulus helped create 3.3 million jobs, and most economists agree it was at least somewhat successful. Ryan himself requested stimulus money for his district in 2009-2010, then got caught (http://www.salon.com/2012/08/17/paul_ryans_stimulus_flub/) [14] lying about it. (August 29, 2012) (http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=975C4ED0-D2E7-513C-9D2659881038BEAE) [12]

5. “Seven hundred and sixteen billion dollars, funneled out of Medicare by President Obama. An obligation we have to our parents and grandparents is being sacrificed, all to pay for a new entitlement we didn’t even ask for. The greatest threat to Medicare is Obamacare, and we’re going to stop it.” Truth: The savings in Medicare come from (http://www.salon.com/2012/08/14/romneys_phony_medicare_attack/) [15] cuts to reimbursements to hospitals and insurance companies, not from seniors, and go to paying for the healthcare law. By repealing the ACA and restoring those reimbursements, Romney and Ryan would in fact hasten (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/08/mitts-medicare-time-bomb.php) [16]Medicare’s demise. (August 29, 2012) (http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=975C4ED0-D2E7-513C-9D2659881038BEAE) [12]

4. “You see, even with all the hidden taxes to pay for the health care takeover …” Truth: In 2010, Politifact deemed the “government takeover of health care” meme its “Lie of the Year,”writing (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2010/dec/16/lie-year-government-takeover-health-care/) [17] that ”the law Congress passed, parts of which have already gone into effect, relies largely on the free market.” (August 29, 2012) (http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=975C4ED0-D2E7-513C-9D2659881038BEAE) [12]

3. “He created a bipartisan debt commission. They came back with an urgent report. He thanked them, sent them on their way, and then did exactly nothing.” Truth: Ryan, who served on the commission, voted against (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/08/ryan-risks-reputation-with-misleading-nomination-speech.php) [18] its recommendations. So did the other House Republicans. (August 29, 2012) (http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=975C4ED0-D2E7-513C-9D2659881038BEAE) [12]

2. Obama “began with a perfect Triple-A credit rating for the United States; it ends with a downgraded America.” Truth: The credit downgrade in 2011 was the result of House Republicans’ refusal to raise the debt ceiling. Standard & Poors cited the use of the debt ceiling and the threat of default as “political bargaining chips” when explaining why (http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/08/05/289861/breaking-s-p-downgrades-u-s-credit-for-the-first-time-in-history-repeatedly-cites-gop-intrasigence-on-taxes/) [19] it downgraded America’s credit rating. S&P noted that the Republicans’ refusal to find ways to raise new revenues impacted the decision as well. (August 29,
2012) (http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=975C4ED0-D2E7-513C-9D2659881038BEAE) [12]

1. “We have responsibilities, one to another — we do not each face the world alone. And the greatest of all responsibilities, is that of the strong to protect the weak.” Truth: About two-thirds of the spending cuts in Ryan’s budget plan come from (http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/222003-catholic-bishops-criticize-ryan-budget-cuts-to-food-stamps) [20] programs that benefit poor people, while at the same time it cuts taxes for the wealthiest Americans. (August 29, 2012) (http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=975C4ED0-D2E7-513C-9D2659881038BEAE) [12]

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/paul-ryan-lyin-king-10-his-worst-campaign-fabrications

[boutons_deux]

Just another HUGE LIE from the Repug TEAM LIARS

Romney: ‘We Don’t Have People Who Die Because They Don’t Have Insurance’ (http://thinkprogress.org/election/2012/10/11/990281/romney-uninsured-hospital/)Emergency rooms serve as a place of last resort, but 45,000 Americans still die every year (http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/09/17/us-usa-healthcare-deaths-idUSTRE58G6W520090917) because they lack health insurance, or one every 12 minutes. Uninsured adults under age 65 are also at a 40 percent higher death risk. Hospitals may treat patients for emergency medical conditions regardless of legal status or ability to pay, but patients with chronic conditions that don’t require emergency interference are often unable to access needed care.

Romney’s health care proposal would leave 72 million Americans (http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/10/02/940691/mitt-romney-increase-uninsured-to-72-million/) without health insurance and wouldn’t provide all uninsured Americans with a stable source of insurance.

http://thinkprogress.org/election/2012/10/11/990281/romney-uninsured-hospital/

[boutons_deux]

Paul Ryan Reading Guide: The Best Reporting on the VP Candidate

Paul Ryan’s voting record: Big-spending conservatism (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0812/79688.html), Politico, August 2012

Ryan’s non-budget votes (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/08/11/paul-ryans-non-budget-policy-record-in-one-post/), Washington Post, August 2012

What is Paul Ryan worth? (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/14/paul-ryan-worth-millions-_n_1774346.html?utm_hp_ref=elections-2012), Huffington Post, August 2012

Fussbudget (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/08/06/120806fa_fact_lizza), The New Yorker, August 2012

Ryan shines as GOP seeks vision (http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/43705712.html), The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, April 2009

The Legendary Paul Ryan (http://nymag.com/news/features/paul-ryan-2012-5/), New York Magazine, April 2012

On the paradox of Paul Ryan (http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/bump-in-the-roadmap/), The American Conservative, April 2012

Man with a Plan (http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/man-plan_648570.html?nopager=1), Weekly Standard, July 2012

How Important is Altas Shrugged author Ayn Rand to Paul’s political philosophy? (http://www.atlassociety.org/ele/blog/2012/04/30/paul-ryan-and-ayn-rands-ideas-hot-seat-again) The Atlas Society, April 2012

A Closer Look at Ryan’s Budget Roadmaps, (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/12/us/politics/ryan-and-his-budget-are-a-gamble-for-romney.html?hp) The New York Times, August 2012

What's Paul Ryan's foreign policy? (http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/04/05/whats_paul_ryans_foreign_policy) Foreign Policy, April 2012

Where the Candidates Stand on Medicare and Medicaid, (http://www.propublica.org/article/where-the-candidates-stand-on-medicare-and-medicaid) ProPublica, September 2012

Obama, Romney, Ryan All Endorse Retraining for Jobless – But Are They Right?, (http://www.propublica.org/article/rare-agreement-obama-romney-ryan-endorse-retraining-for-jobless-but-are-the) ProPublica, October 2012

etc

http://www.propublica.org/article/paul-ryan-reading-guide-the-best-reporting-on-the-vp-candidate

[jack sommerset]

sons even dumb ass Sarah Palin held her own with Biden. I expect Ryan to sweep and mop the floor with this clown.

People forget that. God bless

[CosmicCowboy]

Just another HUGE LIE from the Repug TEAM LIARS

Romney: ‘We Don’t Have People Who Die Because They Don’t Have Insurance’ (http://thinkprogress.org/election/2012/10/11/990281/romney-uninsured-hospital/)Emergency rooms serve as a place of last resort, but 45,000 Americans still die every year (http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/09/17/us-usa-healthcare-deaths-idUSTRE58G6W520090917) because they lack health insurance, or one every 12 minutes. Uninsured adults under age 65 are also at a 40 percent higher death risk. Hospitals may treat patients for emergency medical conditions regardless of legal status or ability to pay, but patients with chronic conditions that don’t require emergency interference are often unable to access needed care.

Romney’s health care proposal would leave 72 million Americans (http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/10/02/940691/mitt-romney-increase-uninsured-to-72-million/) without health insurance and wouldn’t provide all uninsured Americans with a stable source of insurance.

http://thinkprogress.org/election/2012/10/11/990281/romney-uninsured-hospital/

:lmao

It's not the lack of insurance that kills them, in many cases it's just the nature of the at risk demographic that doesn't buy insurance.

[LnGrrrR]

:lmao

It's not the lack of insurance that kills them, in many cases it's just the nature of the at risk demographic that doesn't buy insurance.

Why do you think aren't they buying insurance if they're at risk?

[boutons_deux]

:lmao

It's not the lack of insurance that kills them, in many cases it's just the nature of the at risk demographic that doesn't buy insurance.

Not "don't buy", but can't buy due to exhorbitant, rip-off prices, medical conditions, and/or shitty jobs with no employer insurance. Were you a heartless asshole before you got rich or were you born a heartless asshole?

[CosmicCowboy]

Why do you think aren't they buying insurance if they're at risk?

You misunderstand me. In that Birth to 65 age bracket when you take ALL causes of death like that statistic does, a huge percentage (and no I can't quote the exact number) are violent deaths...accidents, car crashes, drug overdoses, murders etc. and those violent deaths tend to occur more in certain socioeconomic groups which have a tendency to also not have insurance.

[CosmicCowboy]

Oh, and with bad illnesses people with insurance can die just as dead. My sister had great insurance and cancer still killed the shit out of her.

[LnGrrrR]

You misunderstand me. In that Birth to 65 age bracket when you take ALL causes of death like that statistic does, a huge percentage (and no I can't quote the exact number) are violent deaths...accidents, car crashes, drug overdoses, murders etc. and those violent deaths tend to occur more in certain socioeconomic groups which have a tendency to also not have insurance.

Ah, ok, thanks for the clarification. I would say it's likely that those socioeconomic groups don't have insurance not just due to being more "risky", but because I think it's likely that those groups are younger on average, and the earning power of a lot of younger people in society isn't very high. Especially when you couple the fact that unemployment is high, and health insurance without being supported by an employer is higher (so I hear, I wouldn't know being military :p)

[SA210]

No matter what happens, Goldman Sachs wins

[CosmicCowboy]

Ah, ok, thanks for the clarification. I would say it's likely that those socioeconomic groups don't have insurance not just due to being more "risky", but because I think it's likely that those groups are younger on average, and the earning power of a lot of younger people in society isn't very high. Especially when you couple the fact that unemployment is high, and health insurance without being supported by an employer is higher (so I hear, I wouldn't know being military :p)

Agreed. That why Boutox's claim defied logic in claiming that lack of insurance caused their deaths.

[boutons_deux]

You misunderstand me. In that Birth to 65 age bracket when you take ALL causes of death like that statistic does, a huge percentage (and no I can't quote the exact number) are violent deaths...accidents, car crashes, drug overdoses, murders etc. and those violent deaths tend to occur more in certain socioeconomic groups which have a tendency to also not have insurance.

still does not prove that Gecko's claim that nobody dies in USA for lack of health insurance.

and proves even less that uninsured people who do get health care very often get care very late when their disease is more advanced and more costly to treat.

the young vs old is too fine a point.

Plenty of uninsured "working poor" live like that through old age.

In fact, Americans' longevity for people who make it to 65/Medicare starts to be nearly as good as other industrial countries with life-long insurance/health care.

[TeyshaBlue]

Ah, ok, thanks for the clarification. I would say it's likely that those socioeconomic groups don't have insurance not just due to being more "risky", but because I think it's likely that those groups are younger on average, and the earning power of a lot of younger people in society isn't very high. Especially when you couple the fact that unemployment is high, and health insurance without being supported by an employer is higher (so I hear, I wouldn't know being military :p)

Elitist!:p:

[LnGrrrR]

Elitist!:p:


I always think it's hilarious that Republicans always support military, which is probably the most socialistic society in America. I work on tech networks, and another guy pumps gas, who gets paid more? Whoever has the higher rank, that's who! And free(ish) healthcare! Retirement after 20 years! Heck, they even have restriction on what type of clothes we can wear, what type of piecings, tattoos, and haircuts.

[jack sommerset]

Biden looks like a giggling fool. Boring so far. God bless

[Pelicans78]

Anyone who says this country or Isreal can prevent Iran from getting nuclear weapons are lying.

[ploto]

Ryan can not help looking smug.

Can we not get better moderators?

[ElNono]

Slow Joe throwing the punches...

[ElNono]

"Romney is a car guy" :lmao:lmao:lmao

[ploto]

How is this story about Romney being a car guy? Because he gave money to someone who was in a car wreck.

[jack sommerset]

And Biden can't stop looking like a drunk old man. God bless

[ElNono]

Joe with the "you voted for Medicare D" low blow... crofl

[ploto]

Biden looking very passionate and sincere.

[mavs>spurs]

Anyone who says this country or Isreal can prevent Iran from getting nuclear weapons are lying.

why couldn't they?

[ElNono]

Ryan looks rattled, tbh... Joe should tell Barry to stay home and take over these debates...

[ploto]

Ryan asking for stimulus money for his state!

[jack sommerset]

Biden looking very passionate and sincere.

You can't be serious. He doesn't want Ryan to speak and keeps interrupting him every 30 seconds. Old drunk man. God bless

[Pelicans78]

why couldn't they?

Its almost impossible. They have so many facilities that are way deep in their mountains. Impossible to get to. It would basically take nuclear weapons just to take out their facilities. Plus any attack would cause a huge war in the Middle East. Iran control so many major terrorist groups and they would unleash them on Isreal plus get plenty of neighboring support outside of the Saudis whether its Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, the Taliban and financial support from Russia.

[ElNono]

You can turn Iran into a parking lot... I have zero doubt about it. I actually think either Barry or Mitt will do it sooner rather than later, tbh

[jack sommerset]

Biden is getting tired and grumpy now. Not passionate, brother. Angry and bitter. Now he just snapped at Martha. God bless

[jack sommerset]

New drinking game. Drink every time Biden interrupts Ryan when it's his turn. God bless

[ploto]

Ryan looks like an ass.

[Pelicans78]

You can turn Iran into a parking lot... I have zero doubt about it. I actually think either Barry or Mitt will do it sooner rather than later, tbh

They could, but there will be alot of consequences involved.

[ElNono]

Ryan needs to pick it up... maybe another life story about Mitt lending money to poor folks?

[Pelicans78]

Ryan looks like an ass.

He's geeky and smug. A terrible combination.

[ploto]

New drinking game. Drink every time Biden interrupts Ryan when it's his turn. God bless
He is just pointing out his lies. Ryan interrupts Biden, too.

[Trill Clinton]

http://i45.tinypic.com/2elb3fq.jpg

[ploto]

Great question. Do you have the specifics or not? Guess not.

[ElNono]

Let me point out Barrycare is shit...

[ElNono]

They could, but there will be alot of consequences involved.

Isn't there always? It'll happen though.

[jeebus]

Both sides are giving convincing arguments for me to vote something other than Democrat or Republican.

[fraga]

Ryan getting his monkey ass whooped...

[jack sommerset]

He is just pointing out his lies. Ryan interrupts Biden, too.

No, brother. Ryan is taking him to the wood shed. God bless

[ElNono]

Joe came prepared with the spin machine in full swing...

[ElNono]

Both sides are giving convincing arguments for me to vote something other than Democrat or Republican.

You knew that before the debates, tbh

[jeebus]

truth

[ElNono]

lol specifics

[jack sommerset]

Biden is a joke. I'm embarrassed for our country at the way he's acting. God bless

[jack sommerset]

Old bitter joe keeps snapping at Martha. God bless

[ElNono]

Pretty sad to see slow joe mopping the floor with that young fellow... this was supposed to be a home run for red team...

[MannyIsGod]

This debate is amazing. Best debate of my voting life? I think so. Best since Ross Perot was involved.

[Pelicans78]

Isn't there always? It'll happen though.

Honestly, I don't think it will unless Iran has a real incentive not to and right now there isn't. No one is stopping them right now. I'm afraid we will see a nuclear Iran.

[Pelicans78]

Biden is right. The goal was never to take out the Taliban. It was to take out Al-Qaeda. Two separate entities which Bush or Obama failed to realize. This war should have been over once Bin Laden was killed.

[ElNono]

Honestly, I don't think it will unless Iran has a real incentive not to and right now there isn't. No one is stopping them right now. I'm afraid we will see a nuclear Iran.

Not gonna happen, tbh... we inserted a fucking virus on their PCs... we sure as heck can blow them to pieces...

[ElNono]

Biden is right. The goal was never to take out the Taliban. It was to take out Al-Qaeda. Two separate entities which Bush or Obama failed to realize. This war should have been over once Bin Laden was killed.

As far as Aghanistan is concerned, I agree.

[Pelicans78]

Not gonna happen, tbh... we inserted a fucking virus on their PCs... we sure as heck can blow them to pieces...

Hope your right.

[jack sommerset]

Martha is fugly. God bless

[boutons_deux]

Biden is a joke. I'm embarrassed for our country at the way he's acting. God bless

iow, Joe is kickin ass. :lol

[MannyIsGod]

Not gonna happen, tbh... we inserted a fucking virus on their PCs... we sure as heck can blow them to pieces...

Being able to physically do something is not the same as being able to actually do something. We cannot bomb Iran unless we want the economy to go through the tank and unless we want an even more unstable situation in the middle east. Plus, you can't stop Iran from building nukes with air strikes. You just can't.

[jack sommerset]

iow, Joe is kickin ass. :lol

Brother, he sucks. He is wearing down . He is cranky. He sounds like a bitter old fool. God bless

[jack sommerset]

Yikes....snapping at the moderator is coming back to haunt him. Martha corrected biden. God bless

[ElNono]

Being able to physically do something is not the same as being able to actually do something. We cannot bomb Iran unless we want the economy to go through the tank and unless we want an even more unstable situation in the middle east. Plus, you can't stop Iran from building nukes with air strikes. You just can't.

Sure you can... you can bet we're dropping 1000 bunker busters there before they get the bomb... as a matter of fact, that's happening regardless of who wins the election.

[Juggity]

Damn, Biden not pulling any punches

[jeebus]

lol Afghan troops

that shit's gonna fold so fuckin fast when everyone pulls out of there.

[jack sommerset]

Biden is on the ropes, stuttering, stammering, slurring his words, repeating them. He is 69. God bless

[ploto]

The math guy just would not answer a math question.

[Pelicans78]

Biden made a mistake with the Afghan troops remark.

[ElNono]

lol Afghan troops

that shit's gonna fold so fuckin fast when everyone pulls out of there.

Who cares? That shithole can go to hell... I don't want any more money going to that black hole...

[Nbadan]

Sure you can... you can bet we're dropping 1000 bunker busters there before they get the bomb... as a matter of fact, that's happening regardless of who wins the election.

i don't think that is an inevitability if Obama is re-elected...although, the Administration we can't completely control what a nutter like Netty will do...

[Juggity]

Biden sets the tone for Obama's second debate.

Things looking solid tbh.

[Nbadan]

Love Biden's performance so far....

[ploto]

I wonder why she keeps going back to more foreign affairs questions. There are still plenty of domestic issues to discuss.

[ElNono]

Ryan is flip-flopping like the best Kerry... Biden already taken him to the woodshed and now he's just having fun...

[ElNono]

lol "we agree with 2014" followed by "we can't give them a date" :lmao

[jeebus]

Who cares? That shithole can go to hell... I don't want any more money going to that black hole...

I don't think anyone will care. :lol It's gonna be like a nationwide Katrina over there.

[MannyIsGod]

Sure you can... you can bet we're dropping 1000 bunker busters there before they get the bomb... as a matter of fact, that's happening regardless of who wins the election.

Sorry but nope. Number one, you can only bomb the places you KNOW of where they have facilities. And what if they put facilities in populated areas? What if they have facilities they don't know about? What are you going to do about the international reaction? What are you going to do when Iran EASILY shuts down Hormuz? You know what a simple artillery shell will do to an oil tanker? Or mines deployed via sub/aircraft/artillery? What do you do when Iran sticks radioactive material on an ballistic missile?

Iran may not have nukes yet, but it doesn't mean they don't have a position with some strong deterrents already.

[ploto]

He never answers the question!

[ElNono]

Sorry but nope. Number one, you can only bomb the places you KNOW of where they have facilities. And what if they put facilities in populated areas? What if they have facilities they don't know about? What are you going to do about the international reaction? What are you going to do when Iran EASILY shuts down Hormuz? You know what a simple artillery shell will do to an oil tanker? Or mines deployed via sub/aircraft/artillery? What do you do when Iran sticks radioactive material on an ballistic missile?

I'm not saying I like it or I agree with it. But Iraq already set the tone to what unilareal action looks like. What's going to happen is they're going to bomb the shit out of what they know, and they'll keep bombing as they found out new shit.

I'm not for any more military intervention in the ME, but I have zero doubt it's gonna happen *IF* Iran is pursuing the bomb.

[jeebus]

uh oh. religion question. Time to vacate the forums

[ElNono]

uh oh. religion question. Time to vacate the forums

Ron bless

[ploto]

Ryan now allowing exceptions that he opposed.

[fraga]

FIFY


The math guy can't answer a math question.

http://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/2010/4/4/129149002314241724.jpg

[MannyIsGod]

Iraq and Iran are completely different military situations. It has absolutely nothing to do with unilateral action and everything to do with the strategic reality of Iran having the very easily ability of closing down the Persian Gulf. That was never an issue with Iraq. Iraq also never had the nuclear program Iran. Iraq's military was crippled after the gulf war. Thats not the case with Iran.

I'm not saying I'm for it or against it I'm saying that the reality of the situation makes Iran pretty much impossible to attack unless both parties are FAR crazier than I thought. I know Obama isn't and I'm pretty god damn sure Romney isn't. You can't succeed at the mission from the air only.

[SA210]

This debate is amazing. Best debate of my voting life? I think so. Best since Ross Perot was involved.

Yea right. Liars vs Liars, tbh

:lol will be out of Afghanistan by 2014

:lol pretending that Obama won't be attacking Iran same as Mitt

pathetic fake debate, tbh Amazed that you are so impressed with complete bullshit

[Pelicans78]

Iran is a whole other animal from Iraq unfortunately. Iran has more support in the region. Saddam was very vulnerable. He had no friends in the region. Wasted most of his weaponery in the Iran/Iraq war. Sanctions decimated the country even more. And still, the Iraq war was brual for this country. Iran has major terrorist groups to launch on Isreal. They will get military support from Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, and the Taliban. Russia will support them financially. It will get ugly.

[ElNono]

Iraq and Iran are completely different military situations. It has absolutely nothing to do with unilateral action and everything to do with the strategic reality of Iran having the very easily ability of closing down the Persian Gulf. That was never an issue with Iraq. Iraq also never had the nuclear program Iran. Iraq's military was crippled after the gulf war. Thats not the case with Iran.

I'm not saying I'm for it or against it I'm saying that the reality of the situation makes Iran pretty much impossible to attack unless both parties are FAR crazier than I thought. I know Obama isn't and I'm pretty god damn sure Romney isn't. You can't succeed at the mission from the air only.

What I mean about Iraq is that if the US says we're dropping bombs, China and Russia will bitch then eat the shit sandwich... and I think you're underestimating Israel's influence in american politics... If there's anything concrete about Iran having a bomb, it's happening... I can't see it not happening.

[Spurminator]

I haven't watched any of the debate but my Facebook feed is almost unanimously upset that Biden is being immature and the moderator is showing favoritism towards Biden. Based on that, I'm assuming Biden is winning. True?

[Juggity]

I haven't watched any of the debate but my Facebook feed is almost unanimously upset that Biden is being immature and the moderator is showing favoritism towards Biden. Based on that, I'm assuming Biden is winning. True?

In the attitude department, Joe's definitely bringing the heat tonight.

[ElNono]

I haven't watched any of the debate but my Facebook feed is almost unanimously upset that Biden is being immature and the moderator is showing favoritism towards Biden. Based on that, I'm assuming Biden is winning. True?

So far, it's not close... and yeah, Martha been asking Ryan about specifics and *crickets*.... I guess you can call that bias...

[Pelicans78]

I agree. I think Biden is winning. Ryan hasn't given much specifics.

[ploto]

I would not say she is favoring Biden. She started the debate with strong questions against what happened at the Embassy. They probably do not like that she asked Ryan some questions and then asked him again when he did not answer.

[jack sommerset]

Ryan is putting a nice bow around his butt kicking of Biden. God bless

[ploto]

Does he not see it. The question was about negative ads and he started bashing Obama in his answer.

[ElNono]

Ryan kinda of killed himself with his non-answers...

[ploto]

Ryan seems to have run out of talking points.

[MannyIsGod]

I have no idea who's "winning" because I have no idea how its going to play with people other than myself. I can easily see Biden come off as angry and "cranky" to a lot of people out there but quite frankly I've been quite pleased to see Biden calling Ryan on quite a bit of bullshit tonight. Thats not to say Biden hasn't bullshit himself, but I wanted to see someone come out and just call them on some of their bullshit. I think the moderation has been worlds better than the previous debate and she's done a great job of calling out some of the bullshit.

But it all depends on how it plays with the people out there. Either way, you can't say Biden was a pushover tonight. Best line I heard tonight was that they should roll up some of Biden and have Obama smoke it. :lol

[ploto]

Biden had a good closing. It was about his view. Ryan's closing was more Obama bashing.

[MannyIsGod]

Paul Ryan and Mitt Romney will not duck the tough issues. They just won't give you specifics on what that means.

[BRHornet45]

I have no idea who's "winning" because I have no idea how its going to play with people other than myself. I can easily see Biden come off as angry and "cranky" to a lot of people out there but quite frankly I've been quite pleased to see Biden calling Ryan on quite a bit of bullshit tonight. Thats not to say Biden hasn't bullshit himself, but I wanted to see someone come out and just call them on some of their bullshit. I think the moderation has been worlds better than the previous debate and she's done a great job of calling out some of the bullshit.

But it all depends on how it plays with the people out there. Either way, you can't say Biden was a pushover tonight. Best line I heard tonight was that they should roll up some of Biden and have Obama smoke it. :lol

son its always hard to tell who "wins", but Biden will lose a lot of Independents and "blue dog" Democrats tonight with his immature way of debating. lol at him complaining "I get 15 seconds he gets 40" when all he did was talk over everyone tonight until the final minutes ...Biden came across as a scared little child who didn't have a leg to stand on so he chose to yell over, interrupt (both Ryan and the mod), and make childish facial expressions.

[ElNono]

son its always hard to tell who "wins", but Biden will lose a lot of Independents and "blue dog" Democrats tonight with his immature way of debating. lol at him complaining "I get 15 seconds he gets 40" when all he did was talk over everyone tonight until the final minutes ...Biden came across as a scared little child who didn't have a leg to stand on so he chose to yell over, interrupt (both Ryan and the mod), and make childish facial expressions.

Son, are you making a poll tonight? Doubt it, tbh... god bless

[MannyIsGod]

You couldn't see this Biden last time because Palin would have looked like a victim. Thats not the case so much with another middle aged white guy.

[ElNono]

You couldn't see this Biden last time because Palin would have looked like a victim. Thats not the case so much with another middle aged white guy.

tbh, I thought Biden was going to screw this up majorly, but I guess the lesson is you never know, tbh...

[howbouthemspurs]

Biden just destroyed Ryan..... This debate was way more entertaining than the last one!

[MannyIsGod]

Biden isn't dumb. He's definitely prone to saying stupid shit but he's not a buffoon many try to make him into.

[MannyIsGod]

Look, at some point you have to show that you actually care and I think Biden definitely did that tonight.

[BRHornet45]

Biden just destroyed Ryan..... This debate was way more entertaining than the last one!

son CNN disagrees with you right now. most of them are saying Ryan won, but many are saying a draw. Biden appeared bitter, angry, and acted childish.

[ElNono]

son CNN disagrees with you right now. most of them are saying Ryan won, but many are saying a draw. Biden appeared bitter, angry, and acted childish.

son, what are you doing watching CNN? I had you as a fox news guy, tbh...

[ploto]

I think the difference about tonight will be that Democrats were willing to say Romney won the last debate. It would not change their vote but they were willing to give an honest answer. Tonight, the Republicans will not be willing to admit that Biden was better.

[BRHornet45]

son, what are you doing watching CNN? I had you as a fox news guy, tbh...

and you're an MSNBC guy right?

son I prefer CNN, but Fox has the better women (as Republicans always do).

[angrydude]

I thought Biden came across as an asshole with a stick up his butt. I'm sure hardcore liberals loved it because that's generally how they debate.

That said, watching the two of the "debate" foreign policy was a big waste of time. Both campaigns agree on the big issues. They were fighting over trivial little shit that is essentially irrelevant. Neither party is going to do what they said tonight anyhow.

[Agloco]

Glad to hear that Biden salvaged things. Someone needs to slip some ritalin into Barry's water next time.

[SA210]

Neither party is going to do what they said tonight anyhow.

Yup

[ElNono]

and you're an MSNBC guy right?

son I prefer CNN, but Fox has the better women (as Republicans always do).

No MSNBC here... I normally hear what's going on there from the local republicans who love to watch MSNBC...

[ElNono]

I thought Biden came across as an asshole with a stick up his butt. I'm sure hardcore liberals loved it because that's generally how they debate.

That said, watching the two of the "debate" foreign policy was a big waste of time. Both campaigns agree on the big issues. They were fighting over trivial little shit that is essentially irrelevant. Neither party is going to do what they said tonight anyhow.

Ofcourse they were both full of shit. That isn't news.

[MannyIsGod]

I do think Ryan's inability to give specifics is going to be an issue again, however. I do think that part is going to play.

Anyway - done with politics for the night.

[ploto]

How was Romney aggressive and Obama weak, but Biden was rude and Ryan was polite?

[SA210]

TBH..

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/36553_364830583602827_626031843_n.jpg

[DMX7]

Biden cleaned Ryan's fucking clock.

[angrydude]

How was Romney aggressive and Obama weak, but Biden was rude and Ryan was polite?

body language

[ploto]

body language
Ryan smirked smuggly and interrupted Biden, as all. Ryan interrupted the moderator, too.

[SA210]

Did anyone listening to the debate hear anything about DARPA drones, ACTA, NDAA, SOPA, HR 347, much substance on phony sanctions or phony foreign aid, education debt, the Federal Reserve, QE3, eminent domain and property rights, UN troop presence, mic slips, teleprompters at conventions, failed and crony TARP and GM bailouts, CFR, TLC and NATO membership, TSA, HUD, DHS, NSA and FDA expansion, FEMA and CIA black secret black ops budgets, 9/11 questions, Monsanto, Mars Candy, Dupont, Johnson & Johnson, Goldman Sachs and other corporations crony fascist government takeovers and operations...? I didn't hear anything about the DHS and IRS buying up vast amounts of ammo and weapons with our money.. How about you?


lol Good debate

[ElNono]

Did anyone listening to the debate hear anything about DARPA drones, ACTA, NDAA, SOPA, HR 347, much substance on phony sanctions or phony foreign aid, education debt, the Federal Reserve, QE3, eminent domain and property rights, UN troop presence, mic slips, teleprompters at conventions, failed and crony TARP and GM bailouts, CFR, TLC and NATO membership, TSA, HUD, DHS, NSA and FDA expansion, FEMA and CIA black secret black ops budgets, 9/11 questions, Monsanto, Mars Candy, Dupont, Johnson & Johnson, Goldman Sachs and other corporations crony fascist government takeovers and operations...? I didn't hear anything about the DHS and IRS buying up vast amounts of ammo and weapons with our money.. How about you?

lol Good debate

Nobody gives a shit about that, tbh... kinda like Ron Paul...

[SA210]

Nobody gives a shit about that, tbh... kinda like Ron Paul...

I know, exactly :lol




TBH..

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/36553_364830583602827_626031843_n.jpg

[SpurNation]

Why don't politicians just ever say..."Look, what I promise won't ever come to fruition but we hope some of it does and in the end I'll give it my best to get done what I promise but I know all of it won't happen so just vote for me because what I'm saying sounds good and in four years I will have aged ten fold than if I wasn't president and then you can give me another chance to make good on everything I promised I was going to do the first time I was elected but by the middle of my second term the race for another president will become center piece and anything good or bad I did while president will be hyperboled in the next campaign of hopefuls to become the same shit I just went through just to get here in the spot I'm now glad to relinquish because I want to live comfortably as a spokes person and advocate for the rights of people to vote so I can get paid enormous sums of money just to show up and give another speach for a future candidate I know nothing about."

[TheMACHINE]

Biden just destroyed Ryan..... This debate was way more entertaining than the last one!

Haha Destroyed?! Exaggerate much.

[boutons_deux]

A Debate With Clarity and Fervor

Thursday night's vice-presidential debate was one of the best and meatiest political conversations in many years, showing that real differences on public policy can be discussed with fervor, anger, laughter and real substance. In contrast to the dismal meeting last week between President Obama and Mitt Romney, this debate gave voters a chance to evaluate the positions of the two tickets, in part because Representative Paul Ryan's nonanswers were accurate reflections of his campaign.

Vice President Joseph Biden Jr. would not sit still for a parade of misleading and often blatantly untruthful descriptions of the state of the economy and the Republican prescriptions for it. Though his grins and head-shakes were often distracting, he did not hesitate to interrupt and demand an end to "malarkey." The result, expertly controlled by the moderator, Martha Raddatz of ABC News, was both entertaining and enlightening.

Mr. Ryan, as always, refused to acknowledge the improvement in the economy, at one point throwing out a canned talking point about the increase in unemployment in the depressed industrial city of Scranton, Pa., Mr. Biden's hometown. "That's how it's going all around America," he said, ignoring the steady reduction in the national jobless rate, which dipped to 7.8 percent last month.

"You don't read the statistics," Mr. Biden said, jumping in. "That's not how it's going. It's going down." He repeatedly pointed out that Mr. Romney had firmly opposed the federal bailout of the auto industry, which turned out to be the single biggest act of job creation in the last four years. Mr. Ryan responded weakly that Mr. Romney was a "car guy," but offered little in the way of economic proposals beyond cutting taxes and ridiculing the Obama administration's stimulus program.

The vice president, who was in charge of that program, actually defended it, breaking with his campaign's usual reticence to discuss an enormously successful effort that, he pointed out, kept the economy from going over a cliff. And he showed Mr. Ryan's hypocrisy on the subject by pointing out that the congressman had asked for stimulus money for his state of Wisconsin, just as other Republicans did even as they vilified the program.

Mr. Ryan's performance on foreign affairs and military issues was at best disingenuous and at worst bumbling. He said he and Mr. Romney agreed with the administration's planned 2014 pullout from Afghanistan but still thought it was a bad idea, a bizarre nonresponse that did little but confuse voters.

He never said what more a Romney administration would do about Syria than is already being done. And on Iran, he simply repeated Republican talking points about Mr. Obama's "weakness" but did not say what Mr. Romney would do differently that would actually affect Iran's nuclear program, apart from starting a war. He had no answer when the moderator asked how effective he thought military action be.

Mr. Biden refused to ignore the condescending remarks that Mr. Ryan and Mr. Romney have made toward the least fortunate, regularly described by the Republican ticket as "takers" who are irresponsibly dependent on government. That attitude, he noted, is reflected in the Republican tax plan that favors the rich. In one of his most effective summaries, he said that if Republicans would just "get out of the way," there might be real action on middle-class tax cuts, jobs bills and mortgage relief.

"Stop talking about how you care about people," he said. "Show me something." Mr. Ryan's predictable response: You said the stimulus would fix the entire economy and it didn't. But he had no responsible answer for increasing growth.
Both candidates, however, demonstrated real engagement on issues that matter. It was a real change for voters starved for substance.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/article?a=983268&f=28&sub=Editorial

Can any Repugs refute the above trashing of Ryan?

I see Fox Repug campaign headquarters is stuck on the Libya ambassador topic, as if that were ALL they have on Barry and think/hope it will get their Gecko elected.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Biden won because he didn't lose ground for the Administration

[boutons_deux]

Ryan asked for federal help as he championed cuts

WASHINGTON (AP) — Republican vice presidential candidate Paul Ryan, a fiscal conservative and critic of federal handouts, has sought for his constituents in Wisconsin an expansion of food stamps, stimulus money, federally guaranteed business loans, grants to invest in green technology and money under President Barack Obama's health care reform law.

Such requests are at odds with Ryan's public persona as a small-government advocate and tea party favorite who has pledged to tighten Washington's belt.

The Associated Press reviewed 8,900 pages of correspondence between Ryan's congressional office and more than 70 executive branch agencies that it obtained under the U.S. Freedom of Information Act. They showed that for 12 years as a member of Congress, Ryan has sought from the federal government money and benefits that in some cases represent the kinds of largess and specific programs he is now campaigning against.

As Mitt Romney's running mate, Ryan calls those kinds of handouts big-government overreaching. He tells crowds he supports smaller government and rails against what he calls Obama's wasteful spending, including the president's $800 billion stimulus program.

"The stimulus was a case of political patronage, corporate welfare and cronyism at their worst," Ryan said during his acceptance speech at the Republican National Convention. "You, the working men and women of this country, were cut out of the deal." :lol

And during Thursday's vice presidential debate, Ryan said the stimulus amounted to "$90 billion in green pork to campaign contributors and special-interest groups." :lol

But Ryan's constituents benefited from stimulus spending and other government-assistance programs, according to AP's review. Ryan once told federal regulators that cutting a stimulus grant for a town in his district at the 11th hour would be "economically devastating."

Much of Ryan's correspondence is similar to other lawmakers performing constituent duties, describing problems that residents have reported. They include requests such as assisting a family missing airline baggage and helping a man who didn't receive a pancake maker he had ordered.

But in other correspondence, Ryan explicitly supports programs and encourages federal agencies to take actions.

He supported in his congressional letters some Wisconsin farms' share of an $11.8 million loan guarantee, but later criticized other loan guarantees, such as the $535 million loan that went to now-defunct solar panel maker Solyndra. He asked transportation officials for a grant for green technology and alternative fuels, although his proposed budget as House budget chairman called loans for electric car development "corporate welfare."

He's also supported federal money to help a Kenosha, Wis., community center cover health care costs of low-income families under Obama's health care reform law — the very program he and Romney say they will repeal if they win the White House.

Ryan spokesman Brendan Buck said AP's findings represented a member of Congress helping people in his district. "Part of being a congressman is vouching for constituents and helping them navigate the federal bureaucracy when asked," he said.

Among the ways Ryan went to bat for his constituents, as detailed in his correspondence: ( so RYAN's constituents aren't Randian moochers or takers? :lol )

—A Kenosha, Wis., community center's grant proposal under the Food Stamps Access Research program, to educate families about the nutritional benefits of food stamps. Ryan said in a 2002 letter the program would increase the enrollment of eligible individuals in the program by providing laptop computers to pre-screen applicants. Ryan's budget proposed cutting food stamps by $134 billion over 10 years, although his spokesman said he "has always made clear we need a strong safety net."

—Letters offering support or forwarding requests for projects funded by stimulus money. Ryan's May 2009 letter to a regional Environmental Protection Agency office asked for its "full consideration" in awarding grant money to an organization under the National Clean Diesel Funding Assistance Program, which reduces diesel emissions.

Ryan also wrote to the EPA in 2009 on behalf of a small town trying to secure $550,000 in stimulus money for utility repairs. Ryan, whose staff requested meetings with the EPA about the matter, said the rescinding of the grant "would be economically devastating" to Sharon, Wis., since it already began spending the money. (The EPA said project costs were incurred before October 2008, making the project ineligible for stimulus cash.) Ryan has also voiced support for millions in EPA grant money to clean up abandoned building sites in Wisconsin towns.

—A 2002 Department of Agriculture loan guarantee to develop a pork-packing and processing plant for farms in the region, including some in his district. The new factory appeared to be "state of the art" and worthy of funding, he said, adding: "It is my hope that the USDA will reach a favorable decision" on the application for a 60 percent federal loan guarantee toward a $19.7 million loan.

—A Kenosha health center's request to use money under Obama's new health care law to help meet health care needs of "thousands of new patients" who lack coverage. Ryan's December 2010 letter to the Department of Health and Human Services, first reported by the Nation magazine and also obtained by the AP, appears at odds with his pledge to repeal "Obamacare."

—Support for a grant for the Historical Society in Milton, Wis., from the National Park Service for $271,000 in order to preserve a Civil War-era home. Ryan supported the plan in 2002, saying historical artifacts inside the former transfer point for slaves "have aged to a point where aggressive preservation and restoration is needed to save them." Meanwhile, he's supported recent cuts to the federal budget that would invariably affect national parks.

The AP obtained requested documents from nearly every executive branch agency, although many have been slow to provide any relevant files. Some Obama administration agencies declined AP's request to quickly turn over materials even though they involve an election that's just weeks away.

http://mobile.sfgate.com/sfchron/db_41685/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=HzjXU9Hu&full=true#display

[Agloco]

Fact checking the vice-presidential debate


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/fact-checking-the-vice-presidential-debate/2012/10/12/e900404a-13d0-11e2-be82-c3411b7680a9_blog.html?socialreader_check=0&denied=1

Seems they were both full of hooey, half-thruths, and exaggerations.

Translation: Par for the course. Carry on.

[DarrinS]

Biden won because he didn't lose ground for the Administration


Victory in not sucking.

[DarrinS]

Who's been giving Obama and Biden advice on these debates?

They know the debates are televised, right?

[RandomGuy]

I thought Biden came across as an asshole with a stick up his butt. I'm sure hardcore liberals loved it because that's generally how they debate.

That said, watching the two of the "debate" foreign policy was a big waste of time. Both campaigns agree on the big issues. They were fighting over trivial little shit that is essentially irrelevant. Neither party is going to do what they said tonight anyhow.

With the exception of Romney/Ryan likely appointing a conservative activist judge to the Supreme Court.


RADDATZ: I want to go back to the abortion question here. If the Romney-Ryan ticket is elected, should those who believe that abortion should remain legal be worried?

RYAN: We don't think that unelected judges should make this decision; that people through their elected representatives in reaching a consensus in society through the democratic process should make this determination.

What do you think he meant by that sentence? He chose his words very carefully.

[boutons_deux]

"We don't think that unelected judges should make this decision"

No, "we want" judges elected, compromised, interest-conflicted,working for corporate/1% corrupters, and certainly not applying the law.

[DMC]

Romney/Ryan want a system where the majority rules, which is not conducive to a society of tolerance. Try majority rule in some small Southern bible belt town. They would have laws that prohibit any other religious organization from setting up shop. Dry counties are a good example of that sort of thing. We must have a judicial system that's impartial to politics as much as humanly possible, not one that decides based on keeping their jobs.

[leemajors]

Lol Smokin Joe Biden

[boutons_deux]

"Romney/Ryan want a system where the majority rules"

nothing wrong with that, except when the minorities are not protected, by the courts and police, from majority abuses.

[DMC]

"Romney/Ryan want a system where the majority rules"

nothing wrong with that, except when the minorities are not protected, by the courts and police, from majority abuses.



Then that's what's wrong with it. That "when" always happens in a pure "majority rules" society. There's no provision for the minority since the majority makes the rules. You need government, and mob rule isn't government. It's basically just a vote counter.

[Latarian Milton]

the minority have been given more than what they deserve imho. people speak for where his ass is at. your way too predictable, D

[boutons_deux]

I think the difference about tonight will be that Democrats were willing to say Romney won the last debate. It would not change their vote but they were willing to give an honest answer. Tonight, the Republicans will not be willing to admit that Biden was better.

Ryan got his ass, hypocrisy, and lies called out, so Repugs will LIE that it was a tie.

[boutons_deux]

the minority have been given more than what they deserve imho. people speak for where his ass is at. your way too predictable, D

Right. Libertarians want businesses to have the FREEDOM!, It's THEIR Business, to be able to exclude customers based on race, gender, religion, smell, tatoos, beards, sandals, any damn thing.

[boutons_deux]

Ryan’s Distortion of America’s Founding


Mitt Romney’s presidential campaign has been roundly criticized for being light on substance and long on fluff. But his running mate Paul Ryan is promoting a dangerous idea that refutes the historical foundations of democratic government. Practically ignored by the mainstream press, Ryan’s manifesto demands closer scrutiny.

When Rep. Ryan accepted Mitt Romney’s invitation as running mate, the Wisconsin Republican uttered a simple, but profound, statement:

http://consortiumnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/thomasjefferson-3-300x169.jpg (http://consortiumnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/thomasjefferson-3.jpg)Thomas Jefferson, chief author of the Declaration of Independence and third president of the United States.


“But America is more than just a place. It’s an idea. It’s the only country founded upon an idea: Our rights come from Nature and God, not government. We promise equal opportunity, not equal outcomes. This idea is founded upon the principles of liberty, freedom, free enterprise, self-determination, and government by the consent of the governed. This idea is under assault.”

“Our rights come from Nature and God, not government?” Let us hope this idea is under assault, because it is powerful, and it is dangerous.

We know this idea is historically powerful because Americans once used it to overthrow the authority of the British Empire; we know it is imminently dangerous because contemporary American plutocrats are now using it to undermine our hard-won democracy.

Ryan’s opinion that human rights are conferred by “Nature and God” is breathtakingly unoriginal. Witchdoctors and warlords have been inventing and re-inventing the idea of atavistic and supernatural rights since the first virgin was sacrificed on the bloodstained altar of some prehistoric bogeyman. But more recently, and more civilly, the concept was resurrected by English philosopher John Locke in the 17th Century.

Locke, a philosophical shaman of the today’s Libertarian-Right set, hawked the idea that human rights were conferred by an imaginary “law of Nature,” which he said pre-existed and superseded any law made by actual lawmaking people. Think of Moses bringing the tablets down from the Mount – but without Moses, or the tablets, or a population that could read.

http://consortiumnews.com/2012/10/06/ryans-distortion-of-americas-founding/

[SA210]

lol People thinking someone won

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/404050_389780671090418_37924283_n.jpg

[BradLohaus]

For undecideds Biden probably grabbed a draw, or maybe a narrow win, from the jaws of clear victory with his attitude. If you want to look above someone and be dismissive of them in that kind of situation you do what he did occasionally, not all the time. Otherwise you come off as kind of crazy and desperate. It was funny that Ryan called him on that. But if you go strictly on what was said then yes, Biden was more concrete than Ryan. Repubs should be happy there are only one of these.

[DMC]

the minority have been given more than what they deserve imho. people speak for where his ass is at. your way too predictable, D

You miss the point. If the rule is only majority rule, the minority (not racial minority, come out of that shoebox) never get a say. There would be no laws in place to protect people against mob rule, since mob rule would be the detail of the day.

[ElNono]

You miss the point. If the rule is only majority rule, the minority (not racial minority, come out of that shoebox) never get a say. There would be no laws in place to protect people against mob rule, since mob rule would be the detail of the day.

Isn't that what the Constitution is for?

[Jacob1983]

If you have your own business, shouldn't you be allowed to run however the fuck you want to run it? If it's private, shut the fuck up. If it's public or government funded, then there's a difference.

[ploto]

(Reuters) - Vice President Joe Biden came out on top of Thursday night's vice presidential debate with Republican challenger Paul Ryan, according to a Reuters/Ipsos poll.

The energetic Biden claimed a seven-point victory - 42 percent to 35 percent - among registered voters, with a similar margin among independents. Nearly a quarter of registered voters and about a third of independents were unsure who did a better job during the debate at Centre College in Danville, Kentucky...

Voters said Biden was more qualified to be president, as the vice president moved from 43 to 45 percent on that question over the course of the debate, and Ryan stayed at 35 percent. The Wisconsin congressman's presence on the Romney ticket may also cause trouble for the Republican Party: 27 percent of registered voters said Ryan made them less favorable toward Romney, up from 21 percent before the debate.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/13/us-usa-campaign-debate-poll-idUSBRE89B1AK20121013

[DMC]

Isn't that what the Constitution is for? Without the USSC (an unelected judiciary) the Constitution is just a meaningless document. The majority rule could just say fuck free speech, we want this guy who wrote bad things about our god to die, or fuck freedom of religion, we want that done away with. Majority rule would be the law of the land.

This is, of course, taking the "elected by the people" concept to the extreme, but when you put the carrot of keeping a job out there for the elected to chase, they will and have done some unconstitutional shit. The USSC isn't incorruptible, however the fact that they don't spend half their time campaigning and ass kissing big business to keep their jobs equates to at least some level of respect and authority.

Not long ago a bill was introduced into the Senate to make burning of the US flag to be a crime. The USSC would strike that down in a heartbeat on the grounds of 1st Amendment rights. Without that, Congress could pass any wave of emotion bill into law and a campaigning president would sign it.

[ElNono]

Without the USSC (an unelected judiciary) the Constitution is just a meaningless document. The majority rule could just say fuck free speech, we want this guy who wrote bad things about our god to die, or fuck freedom of religion, we want that done away with. Majority rule would be the law of the land.

Well, that's the sentiment I was expressing. The role of the Constitution in general is to guarantee certain inviolable rights towards all, including minorities. I don't disagree with the SCOTUS wielding that power (it should be noted Congress also wields the power to reform the Constitution in a case of extreme majority).

[DMC]

Well, that's the sentiment I was expressing. The role of the Constitution in general is to guarantee certain inviolable rights towards all, including minorities. I don't disagree with the SCOTUS wielding that power (it should be noted Congress also wields the power to reform the Constitution in a case of extreme majority).

Which is why I disagreed with Ryan's comment about non-elected judges. There's a danger both ways, but at least there's some oversight to appointees while anyone can be elected in a purely majority rule society.

[ElNono]

Which is why I disagreed with Ryan's comment about non-elected judges. There's a danger both ways, but at least there's some oversight to appointees while anyone can be elected in a purely majority rule society.

I agree, not to mention that a person that's running for office in the executive power should show a modicum of respect for the judicial and the constitutional separation of power, IMO.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Boutons =

http://mat.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pMAT1-6593697enh-z6.jpg

Just Shake him and he spits out the same old shit.

he requires shaking?

[Viva Las Espuelas]

my favorite exchange

Ryan: you know what the unemployment is in Scranton today?
Biden: sure do
Ryan: it's 10%.
Biden: yeah(as he shakes his head)
Ryan: you know what it was when you guys came in?
Biden: (mumbles "yeah", as he still shaking his head)
Ryan: 8.5%
Biden: yeah(as he still shakes his head)
Ryan: that's how it's going all around in America
Biden: (as he quickly stops shaking his head) you don't read the statistics. That's not how it's going. It's going down.

are biden's ears that far from his mouth???? smh

[boutons_deux]

my favorite exchange

Ryan: you know what the unemployment is in Scranton today?
Biden: sure do
Ryan: it's 10%.
Biden: yeah(as he shakes his head)
Ryan: you know what it was when you guys came in?
Biden: (mumbles "yeah", as he still shaking his head)
Ryan: 8.5%
Biden: yeah(as he still shakes his head)
Ryan: that's how it's going all around in America
Biden: (as he quickly stops shaking his head) you don't read the statistics. That's not how it's going. It's going down.

are biden's ears that far from his mouth???? smh

The 100% Ryan/Repug dishonesty is that the Repugs have done NOTHING for jobs since taking the House in 2010. They have gutted or blocked all kinds of stuff intended to stimulate jobs. And the worst-in-80-years Banksters Great Depression was fully cratering the economy before Barry was elected.