In your honest, non-biased opinion ... who won the Vice Pres. debate tonight?

[BRHornet45]

sons who won the debate tonight?

try to give an honest vote on what you saw tonight. do not base it on your political views.

[ElNono]

Pretty easy decision, IMO... both were full of hot air, but Ryan skipping answers left and right made it relatively easy, tbh...

[BRHornet45]

Pretty easy decision, IMO... both were full of hot air, but Ryan skipping answers left and right made it relatively easy, tbh...

lol well surprise surprise ... you're the typical Democrat block vote. son I said do not base this on your political views.

son even CNN is saying that Ryan came across more solid and Biden came across extremely childish and most of them are saying either a draw or Ryan. if anything Biden danced around more questions than Ryan did. you are entitled to your opinion however, but your vote for Biden was expected regardless of what happened.

[jack sommerset]

lol well surprise surprise ... you're the typical Democrat block vote. son I said do not base this on your political views.

son even CNN is saying that Ryan came across more solid and Biden came across extremely childish and most of them are saying either a draw or Ryan. if anything Biden danced around more questions than Ryan did. you are entitled to your opinion however, but your vote for Biden was expected regardless of what happened.

He pretends not To be a democrat. God bless

[MannyIsGod]

No clue to be honest. I think Biden did better but I don't know how the polls will react which is what really matters I guess. We'll see.

[ElNono]

lol well surprise surprise ... you're the typical Democrat block vote. son I said do not base this on your political views.

Son, I'm not voting for either. Swing and miss, par the course. God bless.

BTW, CNN's poll has Biden winning, not sure what channel you're watching...

http://i47.tinypic.com/20p23c7.png

[mavs>spurs]

seemed like a draw to me, nobody really said anything or made an impression. whole thing was pretty pointless between both guys being vague and saying the same shit over and over while scoffing eachother in every way imaginable.

[BRHornet45]

Son, I'm not voting for either. Swing and miss, par the course. God bless.

BTW, CNN's poll has Biden winning, not sure what channel you're watching...

http://i47.tinypic.com/20p23c7.png

son their analyst were saying Ryan or a draw. the news channels viewers polls don't mean shit. I'm sure Fox News poll is 90% Ryan, MSNBC poll is 90% Biden, and CNN usually leans Democratic so its no surprise they are at 60%.

[ElNono]

He pretends not To be a democrat. God bless

Not pretending anything, tbh... I thought Romney won the last one and voted accordingly... lol red colored glasses.

[ElNono]

son their analyst were saying Ryan or a draw. the news channels viewers polls don't mean shit. I'm sure Fox News poll is 90% Ryan, MSNBC poll is 90% Biden, and CNN usually leans Democratic so its no surprise they are at 60%.

I voted Romney on the last poll... I'm clearly very blue... tell us why you're so mad though? did you think this was going to be a home run for Ryan and he botched it?

[Pelicans78]

I think Biden won on substance. I think Ryan represented himself a little better.

[FromWayDowntown]

lol well surprise surprise ... you're the typical Democrat block vote. son I said do not base this on your political views.

son even CNN is saying that Ryan came across more solid and Biden came across extremely childish and most of them are saying either a draw or Ryan. if anything Biden danced around more questions than Ryan did. you are entitled to your opinion however, but your vote for Biden was expected regardless of what happened.

And you're just being completely objective here, right?

[BRHornet45]

I voted Romney on the last poll... I'm clearly very blue... tell us why you're so mad though? did you think this was going to be a home run for Ryan and he botched it?

son no one is mad except for you and your flip flopping. anyone with a brain could see that Romney won the last debate and even the most liberal people out there would admit that. this debate however was much closer. I'm waiting for the fact checker to come out before declaring a winner, but just based on appearance I think its obvious Biden made a fool of himself with his childish demeanor.

[ElNono]

son no one is mad except for you and your flip flopping. anyone with a brain could see that Romney won the last debate and even the most liberal people out there would admit that. this debate however was much closer. I'm waiting for the fact checker to come out before declaring a winner, but just based on appearance I think its obvious Biden made a fool of himself with his childish demeanor.

If you need a fact-checker to know they were both full of shit, you're dumber than I thought, tbh... And you know I appreciate you.

I have no horse in this race, they're both more of the same.

[mavs>spurs]

on actual debating or babbling whatever you want to call it, it was a draw imo...but wtf was biden doing with he whole nonstop smiling thing? it looked forced/fake and creepy..douchey..awkward..anyone else thing he sprained his face after all that?

[Juggity]

lol BR Hornet adding a "draw" option to this poll

Where was that in the last one son?

[rascal]

Biden won this debate easily.

[ElNono]

on actual debating or babbling whatever you want to call it, it was a draw imo...but wtf was biden doing with he whole nonstop smiling thing? it looked forced/fake and creepy..douchey..awkward..anyone else thing he sprained his face after all that?

Slow Joe looks like he had multiple plastic surgeries since 4 years ago. Wouldn't surprise me if he replaced his entire face with a plastic mask, tbh

[mavs>spurs]

he looked like the fucking joker lol

[rascal]

on actual debating or babbling whatever you want to call it, it was a draw imo...but wtf was biden doing with he whole nonstop smiling thing? it looked forced/fake and creepy..douchey..awkward..anyone else thing he sprained his face after all that?

He was smiling at all the nonsense that Ryan was talking about.

[BRHornet45]

If you need a fact-checker to know they were both full of shit, you're dumber than I thought, tbh... And you know I appreciate you.

I have no horse in this race, they're both more of the same.


so fact checking is irrelevant to you? do you really mean that? lol son you're smarter than that come on.

this was a very close debate and the facts are important in finding out who spoke more truth than BS. I also already told you that based on the debate alone I think that Ryan won and it was very close, but Biden made a complete buffoon out of himself and I believe that will effect a lot of votes for Obama.

[mavs>spurs]

He was smiling at all the nonsense that Ryan was talking about.

neither one of them was telling the truth or making any sense whatsoever.

for instance biden bringing up the dem talking point about "side B doesn't want to raise the taxes on the rich, we do!" while simultaneously doing nothing about the loopholes that keep the actual rates down. the average person watching these debates don't understand tax rates vs effective tax rates. neither side actually wants to fix shit, one side is just good at pretending like they're fighting for the little guy while pulling the wool over his eyes.

[hitmanyr2k]

Biden won on substance alone. Opie couldn't hang and was his usual vague self dancing around questions or just flat out not answering them and going with stump speech material. People are going to talk about Biden's laughing and the smirking but I also tend to do that when I know I'm being fed a lot of bullshit so I found it humorous and not disrespectful.

[ElNono]

so fact checking is irrelevant to you? do you really mean that? lol son you're smarter than that come on.

Don't hate on me, apparently facts don't matter to Romney either, or so his campaign manager said.


this was a very close debate and the facts are important in finding out who spoke more truth than BS. I also already told you that based on the debate alone I think that Ryan won and it was very close, but Biden made a complete buffoon out of himself and I believe that will effect a lot of votes for Obama.

Calm down, son. You sound like an agitated republican. It's ok. Mitt will probably clean Barry's clock in the next debate anyways.

[BRHornet45]

lol BR Hornet adding a "draw" option to this poll

Where was that in the last one son?

son do you really want to argue that? no one needed a draw option until this debate and it was requested for this one since it was very close unlike the other. regardless I didn't even think of it at the time because I just assumed those who like Romney will vote for him and those who like Obama will vote for him. I was honestly surprised by the honesty of some people though (MannyIsGod in particular).

[mavs>spurs]

also, biden defending the white house on the libya debacle was pretty hilarious to watch. neither guy could be considered a "winner" after that lackluster fuck fest tbh.

[ElNono]

neither one of them was telling the truth or making any sense whatsoever.

for instance biden bringing up the dem talking point about "side B doesn't want to raise the taxes on the rich, we do!" while simultaneously doing nothing about the loopholes that keep the actual rates down. the average person watching these debates don't understand tax rates vs effective tax rates.

Agreed. Or Ryan dodging detailing how they're going to increase spending on the military, cut taxes and then rail about the deficit...

Both teams are full of shit, but every smart person knew that going in.

[mavs>spurs]

Agreed. Or Ryan dodging detailing how they're going to increase spending on the military, cut taxes and then rail about the deficit...

Both teams are full of shit, but every smart person knew that going in.

yep, both guys could be broken down and totally dismantled if you wanted to point out the others flaws. anyone picking a winner here plays for the crips or the bloods tbh.

[BRHornet45]

Don't hate on me, apparently facts don't matter to Romney either, or so his campaign manager said.



Calm down, son. You sound like an agitated republican. It's ok. Mitt will probably clean Barry's clock in the next debate anyways.


lol son you're debate skills are very similar to Biden's. you're telling me to calm down and making silly claims, yet your the one who appears to be worked up about all of this.

[ElNono]

yep, both guys could be broken down and totally dismantled if you wanted to point out the others flaws. anyone picking a winner here plays for the crips or the bloods tbh.

These debates are all about style points, tbh... it was the same thing with the last debate...

[ElNono]

lol son you're debate skills are very similar to Biden's. you're telling me to calm down and making silly claims, yet your the one who appears to be worked up about all of this.

You asked for a opinion, I gave mine... you jumped on me like I attacked your white side... I don't recall you being this agitated on the last poll, tbh...

[ploto]

CBS flash poll of undecided voters

Biden 50%
Ryan 31%
Tie 19%

[rascal]

Biden won this debate. Ryan looked like a kid not ready for the big stage.

[mavs>spurs]

ryan just isn't very likeable..like you said it's all about style points. ryan is a douche and worse than your average politician when it comes to flip flopping/pandering.

[ElNono]

ryan just isn't very likeable..like you said it's all about style points. ryan is a douche and worse than your average politician when it comes to flip flopping/pandering.

IMO, Ryan is just too transparent when telling bullshit... it's like he hasn't mastered the master liar skill yet... when pressed about specifics, he looked uncomfortable and dodging... Mitt did much better on that department...

[jack sommerset]

Looks like CNN poll has Ryan as winner. 48 to 44. God bless

[jack sommerset]

Once the dust clears and the independents wake up and start talking about the debate they will agree Ryan won. God bless

[BRHornet45]

IMO, Ryan is just too transparent when telling bullshit... it's like he hasn't mastered the master liar skill yet... when pressed about specifics, he looked uncomfortable and dodging... Mitt did much better on that department...

and you think that Biden is any better? Biden looks like a used car salesman or a personal injury attorney the way that he spins everything that comes out of his mouth. lol

[TheMACHINE]

"Bidden clearly won. He laughed at everything Ryan said which means he won. -Democrat voter

[ploto]

I care about content and it was not even close.

[ElNono]

and you think that Biden is any better? Biden looks like a used car salesman or a personal injury attorney the way that he spins everything that comes out of his mouth. lol

That's the point, son. They're both full of shit, but on style points, Biden *is* the experience used car salesman...

[ElNono]

Looks like CNN poll has Ryan as winner. 48 to 44. God bless

+/- 5% margin of error... lol

[BRHornet45]

"Bidden clearly won. He laughed at everything Ryan said which means he won. -Democrat voter

this

[jack sommerset]

I don't know how anyone can say Biden won this debate. I don't know how anyone would be proud to have this guy as the VP. He was tacky, bitter, rude, clumsy, stuttering, whinny and as our brother elnono said both are liars, so let's single out go old joe out as a liar too. Ryan won. God bless

[jack sommerset]

"Bidden clearly won. He laughed at everything Ryan said which means he won. -Democrat voter

God bless

[BRHornet45]

+/- 5% margin of error... lol

so what's your point? son all polls have a +/- margin of error. the fact of the matter is that CNN (an often times Democratic leaning network) shows that the debate was close. I applaud CNN for exposing facts and they have done a much better job of reporting news this time around than any of the other news networks.

[ElNono]

I don't know how anyone can say Biden won this debate. I don't know how anyone would be proud to have this guy as the VP. He was tacky, bitter, rude, clumsy, stuttering, whinny and as our brother elnono said both are liars, so let's single out go old joe out as a liar too. Ryan won. God bless

Sounds this is very important to you jack... let it all out :lol

[hitmanyr2k]

"Bidden clearly won. He laughed at everything Ryan said which means he won. -Democrat voter

Like I said before, I found Biden's smirking humorous but the other reason I didn't mind it was because Biden usually followed up rather well and justified that grin with his forceful responses. He was basically saying "this guy is full of it" with his grin and then he at least justified it with good explanations why. Ryan was Mr. Vague for the most part. He was ducking and dodging out there. I'm really surprised the GOP calls that dude the "math and budget" guy. From what he's shown he doesn't seem to know a thing about math or budget or how to explain it other than bringing up Reagan and Tip O'Neill. The moderator asked him three times how are you going to make this work and he couldn't answer. I actually think Ryan WANTED Biden to interrupt to save his ass :lol It surprised me because Ryan has been grilled on the Romney/Ryan budget for about a month now and he should have known it was going to come up in the debate. How do you drop the ball on that? It made him look weak.

[BRHornet45]

Sounds this is very important to you jack... let it all out :lol

see son there you go again making accusations and claiming that others are worked up, yet you're the ONLY person in this thread that is clearly worked up over this lol.

[ElNono]

so what's your point? son all polls have a +/- margin of error. the fact of the matter is that CNN (an often time Democratic leaning network) shows that the debate was close. I applaud CNN for exposing facts and they have done a much better job of reporting news this time around than any of the other news networks.

Let me dumb it down so you can understand it, son. A 44-48 result with a 5% margin of error means it was a virtual tie. Not that "CNN has Ryan as the winner".

[ElNono]

see son there you go again making accusations and claiming that others are worked up, yet you're the ONLY person in this thread that is clearly worked up over this lol.

:lol son, you need to stop pretending like you're unbiased or something... you've been a republican apologist for a long time...

It's ok, I don't judge you for it.

[ploto]

Looks like CNN poll has Ryan as winner. 48 to 44. God bless

CNN polled registered voters.

[jack sommerset]

Sounds this is very important to you jack... let it all out :lol

Brother, about as important as it is to you. Actually prolly less for me considering how much you post about it but of course you don't have a horse in the race. You're silly, brother. You're giggling like Biden. God bless

[BRHornet45]

Let me dumb it down so you can understand it, son. A 44-48 result with a 5% margin of error means it was a virtual tie. Not that "CNN has Ryan as the winner".

you're obviously not paying attention. if you had been watching CNN over the last hour nearly all of their analyst have either said that it was a draw or that Ryan won the debate. that's the point. it was very close, but you seem to think otherwise and we are all still waiting for your reason.

[ElNono]

Brother, about as important as it is to you. Actually prolly less for me considering how much you post about it but of course you don't have a horse in the race. You're silly, brother. You're giggling like Biden. God bless

I posted calling out both on being full of shit, jack... kinda like you. But tell us how you really feel, tbh

[BRHornet45]

:lol son, you need to stop pretending like you're unbiased or something... you've been a republican apologist for a long time...

It's ok, I don't judge you for it.

son I vote for common sense. however how am I being biased for calling YOU out on your BS? I'm not trying to sway people's votes in this thread or the other poll that I posted. I'm just calling you out for flip flopping and giving my opinion that this was a very even debate. you on the other hand seem obsessed about it lol.

[ElNono]

you're obviously not paying attention. if you had been watching CNN over the last hour nearly all of their analyst have either said that it was a draw or that Ryan won the debate. that's the point. it was very close, but you seem to think otherwise and we are all still waiting for your reason.

You're obviously not paying attention what I replied to either, son. Catch up.

[TheMACHINE]

"Biden did better than Obama, therefore we won this debate right?" Democratic Voter

[ElNono]

son I vote for common sense. however how am I being biased for calling YOU out on your BS? I'm not trying to sway people's votes in this thread or the other poll that I posted. I'm just calling you out for flip flopping and giving my opinion that this was a very even debate. you on the other hand seem obsessed about it lol.

son, I'm not even talking about this thread or debate... you want me to pull up your threads on people voting democrat and what you think about it? I mean this place is littered with it. :lol

At least jack is transparent about it, tbh

[SA210]

Did anyone listening to the debate hear anything about DARPA drones, ACTA, NDAA, SOPA, HR 347, much substance on phony sanctions or phony foreign aid, education debt, the Federal Reserve, QE3, eminent domain and property rights, UN troop presence, mic slips, teleprompters at conventions, failed and crony TARP and GM bailouts, CFR, TLC and NATO membership, TSA, HUD, DHS, NSA and FDA expansion, FEMA and CIA black secret black ops budgets, 9/11 questions, Monsanto, Mars Candy, Dupont, Johnson & Johnson, Goldman Sachs and other corporations crony fascist government takeovers and operations...? I didn't hear anything about the DHS and IRS buying up vast amounts of ammo and weapons with our money.. How about you?

Goldman Sachs wins

[BRHornet45]

"Biden did better than Obama, therefore we won this debate right?" Democratic Voter

[ElNono]

I'll repeat what I said after the 1st debate... I doubt these debates will matter, tbh

[BRHornet45]

son, I'm not even talking about this thread or debate... you want me to pull up your threads on people voting democrat and what you think about it? I mean this place is littered with it. :lol

At least jack is transparent about it, tbh

so what's your point? its no big secret that I am not an Obama supporter. what does that have to do with any of this? you're just as guilty of being bias as well ..... but oh yea you did vote that Romney won the debate last week so I guess that means you're in the middle right? son a blind and deaf house cat knew that Romney won that debate lol

[Koolaid_Man]

son I vote for common sense. however how am I being biased for calling YOU out on your BS? I'm not trying to sway people's votes in this thread or the other poll that I posted. I'm just calling you out for flip flopping and giving my opinion that this was a very even debate. you on the other hand seem obsessed about it lol.


your guy lost tonight...Biden cleaned his clock...thoroughly...stop being a lil bitch about it...

I especially liked Biden raking him over the coals on whether or not he accepted Stimulus funds...Ryan had that sad puppy dog look on his face when he was forced to answer YES!!!!

Biden spanked that ass tonight :blah

[BRHornet45]

I'll repeat what I said after the 1st debate... I doubt these debates will matter, tbh

son I agree completely. the Vice Presidential debates rarely matter IMO.

[jack sommerset]

I posted calling out both on being full of shit, jack... kinda like you. But tell us how you really feel, tbh

I said you called them both liars. Its easy to conclude giving by your choice of winners that you like rude, bitter, clumsy, stuttering, dispresctful and angry people. God bless

[BRHornet45]

your guy lost tonight...Biden cleaned his clock...thoroughly...stop being a lil bitch about it...

I especially liked Biden raking him over the coals on whether or not he accepted Stimulus funds...Ryan had that sad puppy dog look on his face when he was forced to answer YES!!!!

Biden spanked that ass tonight :blah

son coming from you that truly means a lot! thank you for your educated response and vote.

[jack sommerset]

your guy lost tonight...Biden cleaned his clock...thoroughly...stop being a lil bitch about it...

I especially liked Biden raking him over the coals on whether or not he accepted Stimulus funds...Ryan had that sad puppy dog look on his face when he was forced to answer YES!!!!

Biden spanked that ass tonight :blah

That tells you who really won this thing. God bless

[Koolaid_Man]

son I agree completely. the Vice Presidential debates rarely matter IMO.



^ not a word of what you say is even close to true....McCain lost primarily because Sarah Palin has scrambled eggs for brains....but she's white so of course I'd still fuck her :lol

[ElNono]

so what's your point? its no big secret that I am not an Obama supporter. what does that have to do with any of this? you're just as guilty of being bias as well ..... but oh yea you did vote that Romney won the debate last week so I guess that means you're in the middle right? son a blind and deaf house cat knew that Romney won that debate lol

Well, I'll let my non-vote for either on the ballot speak for me, tbh... I cannot willfully support either of these cats...

I've been posting on the political forum for years, I think people know where I stand, tbh... red teamers accuse me of being blue, blue teamers bitch at me when I say things like Obamacare was shit and Barry was shit...

You're not discovering anything new here, tbh...

[ElNono]

I said you called them both liars. Its easy to conclude giving by your choice of winners that you like rude, bitter, clumsy, stuttering, dispresctful and angry people. God bless

The angry white man! Barry can't pull that shit, tbh... Biden seized on it...

[TheMACHINE]

Honestly, I thought Ryan held his own against an over aggresive Biden.

[BRHornet45]

^ not a word of what you say is even close to true....McCain lost primarily because Sarah Palin has scrambled eggs for brains....but she's white so of course I'd still fuck her :lol

son you're obviously very educated on the issue as we can all see. Obama swept and mopped the floor with McCain in every debate. McCain lost because he was 95 years old and a horrible choice. if anything Palin held her own with Biden.

[Koolaid_Man]

son coming from you that truly means a lot! thank you for your educated response and vote.


I didn't vote in your bullshit poll..I'm just keeping the Joe Biden ass whipping going by providing substance to your Ryan like Malarkey ;-)

[ElNono]

McCain lost because of dubya... he had no shot going in, tbh... picking Palin didn't help..

[Koolaid_Man]

Well, I'll let my non-vote for either on the ballot speak for me, tbh... I cannot willfully support either of these cats...

I've been posting on the political forum for years, I think people know where I stand, tbh... red teamers accuse me of being blue, blue teamers bitch at me when I say things like Obamacare was shit and Barry was shit...

You're not discovering anything new here, tbh...

If I told you Obama was personally delivering some new cheesy bean dip burrito's would you change your mind...

[jack sommerset]

The angry white man! Barry can't pull that shit, tbh... Biden seized on it...

That's such a blue team statement. I'm going to bat for you right now. I believe you don't think you are a democrat. God bless

[jack sommerset]

I'm going to bed. I give this thread one more day of action then back to the main event. God bless

[ElNono]

That's such a blue team statement. I'm going to bat for you right now. I believe you don't think you are a democrat. God bless

It's not all black or white, red or blue, us vs them, jack... that's reserved for team cheerleaders like you...

[Koolaid_Man]

son you're obviously very educated on the issue as we can all see. Obama swept and mopped the floor with McCain in every debate. McCain lost because he was 95 years old and a horrible choice. if anything Palin held her own with Biden.

that too...but the selection of Palin sealed his fate...along with his erratic behavior...it wasn't the debates that decided the 08 election...It was and will continue to be Obama's Presidential Stature...

Romney looks like a tight lipped liar who literally walks like he has a dick stuck up his ass - to be quite fucking honest

[ElNono]

I'm going to bed. I give this thread one more day of action then back to the main event. God bless

good night, jack. ron bless

[da_suns_fan]

Son, I'm not voting for either. Swing and miss, par the course. God bless.

BTW, CNN's poll has Biden winning, not sure what channel you're watching...

http://i47.tinypic.com/20p23c7.png

Ryan won 48 to 44% according to CNN.

[Das Texan]

This is the funny part of the spin:

Its ok for Romney to be a dickhead last week, but this week when Biden is a dickhead its a bad thing.


Funny.

[ElNono]

Ryan won 48 to 44% according to CNN.

Read post #42 onwards, tbh

[da_suns_fan]

I thought on substance it was pretty even but Biden kind of "blew it" with the over-the-top interruptions and laughter.

Not a very likeable guy but im sure he fired up his base.

[ElNono]

http://i50.tinypic.com/z4v1e.jpg

:lmao

[da_suns_fan]

This is the funny part of the spin:

Its ok for Romney to be a dickhead last week, but this week when Biden is a dickhead its a bad thing.


Funny.

Nonsense. Romney didnt interrupt the president over and over and over again and make over-the-top gestures and smiles at the presidents answers.

Romney was "aggressive". Biden was a clown. Its like he drank three cups of coffee five minutes before the debate.

[LnGrrrR]

I don't fucking get these debates. What the hell is supposed to do when someone is lying, just sit back and take it? That's what Obama did last debate. And who are the fucking idiots saying "X guy looked great! He lied out his ass, but he looked so good doing it!"

[Juggity]

Nonsense. Romney didnt interrupt the president over and over and over again and make over-the-top gestures and smiles at the presidents answers.

Romney was "aggressive". Biden was a clown. Its like he drank three cups of coffee five minutes before the debate.

Smiles! Oh god! The horror!
http://images.politico.com/global/click/101116_joe_biden_smile_ap_522_regular.jpg

[ElNono]

I don't fucking get these debates. What the hell is supposed to do when someone is lying, just sit back and take it? That's what Obama did last debate. And who are the fucking idiots saying "X guy looked great! He lied out his ass, but he looked so good doing it!"

Because it's a show... it's all bullshit. Biden isn't going to come out and say 'well, gee, we really fucked up in the embassy'... and Ryan isn't going to come out and say 'I voted for Medicare part D and TARP all on the national credit card, I don't really give a shit about the deficit'...

IMO, if you start from the premise this is all acting, then what's left to opine on other than their acting?

[101A]

Because it's a show... it's all bullshit. Biden isn't going to come out and say 'well, gee, we really fucked up in the embassy'... and Ryan isn't going to come out and say 'I voted for Medicare part D and TARP all on the national credit card, I don't really give a shit about the deficit'...

IMO, if you start from the premise this is all acting, then what's left to opine on other than their acting?
FTW

[Jacob1983]

I would say it was a draw. Biden had the attitude of "we got this mess from Bush and if you vote for Romney, you will be voting for Bush". The cheesehead had the attitude of like "Obama had his chance and has put America into the ground so vote for us because we will balance the budget in a decade or two or three". I will give credit to the cheesehead. He kept his cool and did not crack under the pressure. Biden seemed like an arrogant cocky bastard.

[Jeff Van Gundy]

In your honest non-biased opinion


Pretty easy decision, IMO... both were full of hot air, but Ryan skipping answers left and right made it relatively easy, tbh...


lol well surprise surprise ... you're the typical Democrat block vote. son I said do not base this on your political views.

son even CNN is saying that Ryan came across more solid and Biden came across extremely childish and most of them are saying either a draw or Ryan. if anything Biden danced around more questions than Ryan did. you are entitled to your opinion however, but your vote for Biden was expected regardless of what happened.

lol

butthurt post

[Wild Cobra]

I don't fucking get these debates. What the hell is supposed to do when someone is lying, just sit back and take it? That's what Obama did last debate. And who are the fucking idiots saying "X guy looked great! He lied out his ass, but he looked so good doing it!"
I don't bother watching such shit. That's why you don't see me much in these multiple debate threads either.

I see debates for the elitists who like style over substance, and the ignorant who believe anything.

[rascal]

Honestly, I thought Ryan held his own against an over aggresive Biden.

Ryan was schooled. Biden countered every argument and left Ryan with nothing to say other than a defeated smirk.

[CosmicCowboy]

I thought Biden was dealt a pretty bad hand to defend and played it as good as he could. He out performed my expectations but it was still a draw at best. I think Ryan won it, mainly because of his steady composure and Biden's hysterical laughing.

[CosmicCowboy]

I'll repeat what I said after the 1st debate... I doubt these debates will matter, tbh

:lmao:lmao:lmao

the polls seem to disagree with you

[djohn2oo8]

I thought Biden was dealt a pretty bad hand to defend and played it as good as he could. He out performed my expectations but it was still a draw at best. I think Ryan won it, mainly because of his steady composure and Biden's hysterical laughing.

Biden owned Ryan, especially on Afghanistan and on Ryan voting for the stimulus.

[O.J. Simpson]

Pretty easy decision, IMO... both were full of hot air, but Ryan skipping answers left and right made it relatively easy, tbh...


lol well surprise surprise ... you're the typical Democrat block vote. son I said do not base this on your political views.

son even CNN is saying that Ryan came across more solid and Biden came across extremely childish and most of them are saying either a draw or Ryan. if anything Biden danced around more questions than Ryan did. you are entitled to your opinion however, but your vote for Biden was expected regardless of what happened.
:lol This Republican faggot asks a question then gets MAD as fuck when you pick the option he doesn't agree with. Not a surprise from someone that pretends to be black on the internet to make his neocon stance have more 'cred'.

[jack sommerset]

So have cooler heads prevailed in here yet? Did a good night sleep put things in perspective! A old biter man that talks over you, interupts you while laughing and giggling plus lies doesn't equal win unless you are Charlie Sheen. Hopefully some of you can swallow that blue pride of yours an at least give the edge to Ryan. My goodness, if Obama carries on like Biden did this election is in the bag for the republicans. Believe me, I don't want Obama to do that. He is the president for crying out loud, go out with some dignity. God bless

[jack sommerset]

:lol This Republican faggot asks a question then gets MAD as fuck when you pick the option he doesn't agree with. Not a surprise from someone that pretends to be black on the internet to make his neocon stance have more 'cred'.

Are you black? God bless

[djohn2oo8]

:lol This Republican faggot asks a question then gets MAD as fuck when you pick the option he doesn't agree with. Not a surprise from someone that pretends to be black on the internet to make his neocon stance have more 'cred'.

O.J. Simpson with the 720 windmill dunk with no regard for human life.

[O.J. Simpson]

Are you black? God bless
Then we have this one whose best attempt at being funny is stealing the shtick from the other fake black neocon idiot I just spoke about. I'm pretty sure a year ago you were just the typical foaming-at-the-mouth wingnut like DarrinS.

Let's hope Hussein wins again so we can see you go off the deep end again and maybe steal Culburn's shtick. Kill yourself.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Then we have this one whose best attempt at being funny is stealing the shtick from the other fake black neocon idiot I just spoke about. I'm pretty sure a year ago you were just the typical foaming-at-the-mouth wingnut like DarrinS.

Let's hope Hussein wins again so we can see you go off the deep end again and maybe steal Culburn's shtick. Kill yourself.

One could only hope!!

[jack sommerset]

Then we have this one whose best attempt at being funny is stealing the shtick from the other fake black neocon idiot I just spoke about. I'm pretty sure a year ago you were just the typical foaming-at-the-mouth wingnut like DarrinS.

Let's hope Hussein wins again so we can see you go off the deep end again and maybe steal Culburn's shtick. Kill yourself.

Ill take that as a "no" you are not black. Pretending to be a black murderer on the internet says a lot about you, brother. Let's pray this not a upgrade from the real you. God bless

[George Gervin's Afro]

Ill take that as a "no" you are not black. Pretending to be a black murderer on the internet says a lot about you, brother. Let's pray this not a upgrade from the real you. God bless

lol.. fake christian calling out others for being fake on the internets.. priceless


eliot ness

[DMC]

Biden


Smug
Disrespectful
Used car salesman tactics


The VP came across as a corporate VP having a debate against a department manager, talking down to his opponent instead of talking with his opponent. The smug grins every time Ryan began to speak were unnecessary. He got visibly shaken and resorted to a louder more insistent tone of voice with both the host and with Ryan.


Ryan

Evasive
Repetitive
Rehearsed lines
Fast talker


Ryan continually used the word "look" as a doorway to a tangent when he either wouldn't or couldn't answer the question. He never answered just how Romney loves car manufacturers or cars in general and instead talked about Romney paying for someone's tuition although the lead in was that Romney loves cars and here's an example. Biden never called him on it. It was quite obvious both men had talking points and neither addressed what was really being said by the other person.

The debate itself showed the underbelly of politics. Both sides want to rape us next, and they are both telling us that we need their form of rape, that it's good for us and that they really care for us. If you look back over the decades, these guys and their friends get more wealthy and the general population gets less wealthy. They are shearing the American people. None of it was desirable. I hate politics.

[DMC]

Just like the NBA polls, you might as well just ask "Left or Right?" and the results will almost always be identical to any question you could ask that requires people to choose sides.

[boutons_deux]

"Both sides want to rape us next"

False equivalence, as usual. Repugs want MORE to rape the 99%, esp the moochers and takers 47%, HARDER and DEEPER.

[ploto]

I have realized that the polls on who won any debate are pointless because few seem to listen to what is actually said.

You should not vote for personalities, but instead for policies. I said the same thing after the Presidential debate and the same after this - no one said anything that revealed that his positions and policies are any different than they were a month ago. You should not vote for or against someone because he smiled or did not smile - or even worse the women who have said that Ryan won because he looked better!

And if I see one more room of supposedly undecided voters who then answer questions in very partisan ways, I may scream. Oh. I think Ryan won because he gave more specifics... :lol

[Spurminator]

:lmao

Who knew politeness was so important to Americans?

[ploto]

Just like the NBA polls, you might as well just ask "Left or Right?" and the results will almost always be identical to any question you could ask that requires people to choose sides.

I don't agree. I think that last week there were Obama supporters who admitted they thought Romney won the debate. No matter what Obama does next week, I expect just about no Romney supporter ever to admit they think Obama did better even if it seems like he did to those who try to remain neutral.

[DMC]

"Both sides want to rape us next"

False equivalence, as usual. Repugs want MORE to rape the 99%, esp the moochers and takers 47%, HARDER and DEEPER.




Either you're a government/taxpayer dependent individual or you differentiate between rapists. Just because your side lets the 47% smell their dicks after the rape of the 53% doesn't mean it's not still a rape.

[ploto]

:lmao

Who knew politeness was so important to Americans?

If they were consistent, I would not mind. Romney walks all over the moderator, and he is aggressive, but somehow Biden was being rude.

[DMC]

I don't agree. I think that last week there were Obama supporters who admitted they thought Romney won the debate. No matter what Obama does next week, I expect just about no Romney supporter ever to admit they think Obama did better even if it seems like he did to those who try to remain neutral.

Well of course, there are always "some" but if you are saying that people (especially in this forum) by and large are impartial, that's naive. This forum is by and large left leaning. Young people are by and large left leaning. Sure there are exceptions, that's why I said "almost always" and not "always".

[DMC]

If they were consistent, I would not mind. Romney walks all over the moderator, and he is aggressive, but somehow Biden was being rude.I am guessing you are a Democrat. Am I wrong?

[DMC]

I have realized that the polls on who won any debate are pointless because few seem to listen to what is actually said.

You should not vote for personalities, but instead for policies. I said the same thing after the Presidential debate and the same after this - no one said anything that revealed that his positions and policies are any different than they were a month ago. You should not vote for or against someone because he smiled or did not smile - or even worse the women who have said that Ryan won because he looked better!

And if I see one more room of supposedly undecided voters who then answer questions in very partisan ways, I may scream. Oh. I think Ryan won because he gave more specifics... :lol

Biden said the most important thing said in this election and that was about the next President selecting 2 USSC justices. The Supreme Court rulings directly impact most of us and it's very difficult to undo any of that.

[gameFACE]

Biden won. I could have done without the excessive sighs and grins but he can get away with it unlike Gore who was a stiff. Ryan wasn't terrible but he's not even vanilla. I don't totally agree with assesments that he held his own with Biden. He's not quite ready for prime time. The republicans have a history of picking awful VP candidates.

Where I think Biden won was where, as someone mentioned earlier, he took Ryan to task on using the stimilus money he apparently thought was a bad solution. I thought Biden also won the healthcare and Afghanistan issues.

[ploto]

Looks like CNN poll has Ryan as winner. 48 to 44.

This poll does not and cannot reflect the views of all Americans. It only represents the views of people who watched the debate and by definition cannot be an indication of how the entire American public will react to Wednesday's debate in the coming days," cautions CNN Polling Director Keating Holland.

One-third of the respondents who participated in tonight's survey identified themselves as Republicans, with 31% identifying themselves as Democrats, and 34% identifying themselves as independents.

"That indicates that the sample of debate watchers is more Republican than an average of recent CNN polls of all Americans," adds Holland.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/11/cnn-poll-on-debate-winner-ryan-48-biden-44/

[ploto]

I am guessing you are a Democrat. Am I wrong?

Wrong.

[DMC]

Wrong.

Your responses on this forum seem to indicate otherwise. Are you splitting hairs?

[Latarian Milton]

shrewd move by biden in sticking with the "we inherited the whole shit from bush" card tbh.

[DMC]

There's no "inherited". They spent millions to get elected. That's not inheritance, that's a bidding war. They bought that issue.

[Latarian Milton]

the economy has been going downturn for many years since even before bush took office. the snow ball has been rolling & growing for so many years its beyond possible to melt it down in just a few years, obama is a terrible motherfucker who's basically done nothing right to this country but it isn't like you or anyone else could've done any better than he did imho, and romney could be even worse

[cantthinkofanything]

There's no "inherited". They spent millions to get elected. That's not inheritance, that's a bidding war. They bought that issue.

It's what makes this whole thing a very unfunny joke. There's no way a "normal" guy can get elected. By the time a politician gets to that level, he's already sold his soul 100x over.

[cantthinkofanything]

the economy has been going downturn for many years since even before bush took office. the snow ball has been rolling & growing for so many years its beyond possible to melt it down in just a few years, obama is a terrible motherfucker who's basically done nothing right to this country but it isn't like you or anyone else could've done any better than he did imho, and romney could be even worse

The problem is that the best solution would have been to quit printing money years ago and just let the economy fail and start over again. But no one wants to be the president in office when that happens. They just the shit rolling and further exacerbating the effects of the crash when it finally comes.

[boutons_deux]

Paul Ryan Told 24 Myths In 40 Minutes

Paul Ryan spoke for 40 of the 90 minutes during Thursday night’s vice presidential debate and managed to tell at least 24 myths during that time:

1) “It took the president two weeks to acknowledge that [the Libya attack] was a terrorist attack.” Obama used the word “terrorism” to describe the killing of Americans the very next day at the Rose Garden. “No acts of terror (http://www.politico.com/blogs/under-the-radar/2012/09/obama-talked-of-libya-attack-as-terror-weeks-ago-136812.html) [2] will ever shake the resolve of this great nation, alter that character, or eclipse the light of the values that we stand for,” Obama said in a Rose Garden statement on September 12.

2) “The administration was blocking us every step of the way. Only because we had strong bipartisan support for these tough [Iran] sanctions were we able to overrule their objections and put them in spite of the administration.” Even the Israeli President has effusively praised (http://thinkprogress.org/security/2012/07/16/520861/peres-israel-iran-clinton-thanks/) [3] President Obama’s leadership on getting American and international sanctions on Iran, which have significantly slowed Iran’s progress (http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/security/news/2011/05/16/9632/corralling-iran/) [4].

3) “Medicare and Social Security are going bankrupt. These are indisputable facts.” [T]he possibility of Medicare going bankrupt is — and historically has been — greatly exaggerated. In fact, if no changes are made, Medicare would still be able to meet 88 percent of its obligations in 2085 (http://thkpr.gs/kOxhYw) [5]. Social Security is fully funded for another two decades (http://thinkprogress.org/health/2011/05/31/231003/schumer-medicare-choice/) [6] and could pay 75 percent of its benefits thereafter. There is also an easy way (http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/04/24/469911/media-social-security-bankrupt/) [7] to ensure the program’s long-term solvency without large changes or cuts to benefits.

4) “The vice president was in charge of overseeing this. $90 billion in green pork to campaign contributors and special interest groups.” Multiple reviews, including an independent review of all Department Of Energy loan programs by Herb Allison –- finance chair for McCain for President 2008 –- have found no “pork” (http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/green/news/2012/02/10/11067/federal-energy-loan-guarantees-win-clean-bill-of-health/) [8] in the stimulus’ funding of green projects, concluding that the loans were not steered to friends or family, as Ryan claims.

5) “Was it a good idea to spend taxpayer dollars on electric cars in Finland, or on windmills in China?” As PolitiFact has pointed out (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jul/20/mitt-romney/romney-ad-says-stimulus-money-went-buy-electric-ca/) [9], the money for electric cars in Finland did not come from the stimulus. Rather, it originated with the Energy Department’s Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing program, which predated the Obama administration. The claim about “windmills in China” is also inaccurate (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jul/23/mitt-romney/stimulus-windmills-china-romney-ad/) [10].

6) “When they see us putting – when they see us putting daylight between ourselves and our allies in Israel, that gives them encouragement.” The Israeli Deputy Prime Minister and Defense Minister, Ehud Barak, told CNN, “President Obama is doing … more than anything (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/07/30/ehud-barak-sings-praises-of-obama-administration/) [11] that I can remember in the past [in regard to our security].”

7) “You see, if you reform these programs for my generation, people 54 and below, you can guarantee they don’t change for people in or near retirement.”Here is how the Romney/Ryan Medicare plan will affect current seniors (http://www.americanprogressaction.org/issues/healthcare/report/2012/08/24/33915/increased-costs-during-retirement-under-the-romney-ryan-medicare-plan/) [12]: 1) by repealing Obamacare, the 16 million seniors receiving preventive benefits without deductibles or co-pays and are saving $3.9 billion on prescription drugs will see a cost increase, 2) “premium support” will increase premiums for existing beneficiaries as private insurers lure healthier seniors out of the traditional Medicare program, 3) Romney/Ryan would also lower Medicaid spending significantly beginning next year, shifting federal spending to states and beneficiaries, and increasing costs for the 9 million Medicare recipients who are dependent on Medicaid.

8) “Obamacare takes $716 billion from Medicare to spend on Obamacare.” Ryan is claiming that Obamacare siphons off $716 billion from Medicare, to the detriment of Medicare beneficiaries. In actuality, that money is saved primarily through reducing over-payments to insurance companies under Medicare Advantage, cutting waste fraud and abuse, and eliminating inefficiencies in the system (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/aug/29/paul-ryan/paul-ryan-said-president-obama-funneled-716-billio/) [13]. Ryan’s budget plan keeps those same cuts, but directs them toward tax cuts for the rich and deficit reduction.

9) “And then they put this new Obamacare board in charge of cutting Medicare each and every year in ways that will lead to denied care for current seniors.”The Board, or IPAB is tasked with making binding recommendations to Congress for lowering health care spending, should Medicare costs exceed a target growth rate. Congress can accept the savings proposal or implement its own ideas through a super majority. The panel’s plan will modify payments to providers but it cannot “include any recommendation to ration health care, raise revenues or Medicare beneficiary premiums…increase Medicare beneficiary cost-sharing (including deductibles, coinsurance, and co- payments), or otherwise restrict benefits or modify eligibility criteria” (Section 3403 (http://housedocs.house.gov/energycommerce/ppacacon.pdf) [14] of the ACA). Relying on health care experts rather than politicians to control health care costs has previously attracted bipartisan support and even Ryan himself proposed two IPAB-like structures (http://thinkprogress.org/health/2011/07/13/267697/table-ryans-2009-health-plan-included-two-ipab-like-boards/) [15] in a 2009 health plan.

10) “7.4 million seniors are projected to lose their current Medicare Advantage coverage they have. That’s a $3,200 benefit cut.” Enrollment is actually projected to increase by 11 percent in Medicare Advantage (MA) in 2013. Since the Affordable Care Act was enacted in 2010, Medicare Advantage premiums have decreased an average of 10 percent and enrollment in these plans has increased 28 percent (http://www.healthcarefinancenews.com/news/medicare-advantage-premiums-flat-enrollment-project-increase-11-percent) [16].

11) “This [Medicare premium support] plan that’s bipartisan. It’s a plan I put together with a prominent Democrat senator from Oregon.” Wyden not only voted against Ryan’s budget, he also called the idea that he supported it “nonsense (http://mediamatters.org/blog/2012/08/14/fox-ignores-wydens-rejection-to-invent-bipartis/189339) [17].”

12) “Eight out of 10 businesses, they file their taxes as individuals, not as corporations.” Far less than half (http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/07/10/514032/speaker-boehner-small-business-lies/) [18] of the people affected by the expiration of the upper income tax cuts get any of their income at all from a small businesses. And those people could very well be receiving speaking fees or book royalties, which qualify as “small business income” but don’t have a direct impact on job creation. It’s actually hard to find a small business (http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/08/03/636501/boushey-small-business-tax-cuts/) [19] who think that they will be hurt if the marginal tax rate on income earned above $250,000 per year is increased.

13) “[Unemployment is rising] all around America.” In August, the unemployment rate dropped from a year before in 325 of 372 metro areas (http://bls.gov/news.release/metro.nr0.htm) [20] surveyed by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

14) “The average tax rate on businesses in the industrialized world is 25 percent, and the president wants the top effective tax rate on successful small businesses to go above 40 percent.” The U.S. is raising historically low amounts of revenue (http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/02/03/418171/corporate-taxes-40-year-low/) [21] from the corporate income tax, and it already has the second lowest effective corporate tax rate (http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/07/05/260535/graph-corporate-tax-second-lowest/) [22] in the world. U.S. corporations are taxed less than their foreign rivals (http://thinkprogress.org/%E2%80%9Dhttp://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/02/22/429997/5-facts-corporate-tax-obama/%E2%80%9D) [23], and the U.S. effective corporate tax rate is low compared to other developed economies.

15) “He’ll keep saying this $5 trillion plan, I suppose. It’s been discredited by six other studies.” The studies Ryan cites actually further prove (http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/09/10/819411/romney-tax-studies-five/) [24] that Romney/Ryan would, in fact, have to raise taxes on the middle class if he were to keep his promise not to lose revenue with his tax rate reduction.

16) “You can – you can cut tax rates by 20 percent and still preserve these important preferences for middle-class taxpayer. It is mathematically possible. It’s been done before. It’s precisely what we’re proposing.” If Romney/Ryan hope to provide tax relief to the middle class, then their $5 trillion tax cut would add to the deficit. There are not enough deductions in the tax code that primarily benefit rich people to make his math work. As the Tax Policy Center concluded (http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/08/01/620561/tpc-romney-study-taxes/) [25], Romney’s plan can’t both exempt middle class families from tax cuts and remain revenue neutral. “He’s promised all these things and he can’t do them all. In order for him to cover the cost of his tax cut without adding to the deficit, he’d have to find a way to raise taxes on middle income people or people making less than $200,000 a year,” the Center found (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/10/mitt-romney-floats-17000-limit-on-tax-deductions.php) [26].

17) “So they proposed a $478 billion cut to defense to begin with. Now we have another $500 billion cut to defense that’s lurking on the horizon. They insisted upon that cut being involved in the debt negotiations, and so we have a $1 trillion cut.” Ryan has frequently gotten in hot water for criticizing President Obama for the very same defense cuts that he voted for (http://thinkprogress.org/security/2012/09/09/816861/ryan-i-didnt-vote-for-the-defense-cuts-i-voted-for/) [27] in 2011.

18) “If these cuts go through, our Navy will be the smallest – the smallest it has been since before World War I.” PolitiFact rated this claim as “Pants on Fire (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jan/18/mitt-romney/mitt-romney-says-us-navy-smallest-1917-air-force-s/) [28],” noting that “a wide range of experts told us it’s wrong to assume that a decline in the number of ships or aircraft automatically means a weaker military.”

19) “Look at what they’re doing through Obamacare with respect to assaulting the religious liberties of this country. They’re infringing upon our first freedom, the freedom of religion, by infringing on Catholic charities, Catholic churches, Catholic hospitals.” Religious institutions haven’t been forced to “violate their conscience (http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/02/01/416231/fact-check-romney-falsely-claims-obama-orders-religious-organizations-to-violate-their-conscience/) [29]” by paying for contraception. Houses of worship and other religious nonprofits that primarily employ and serve people of the same faith will be exempt from offering birth control.

20) “If you like your health care plan, you can keep it. Try telling that to the 20 million people who are projected to lose their health insurance if Obamacare goes through or the 7-point million – 7.4 million seniors who are going to lose it.” The Affordable Care Act would actually expand health care coverage to 30 million Americans and all seniors will keep their guranteed Medicare benefits, despite Ryan’s fear mongering. The Congressional Budget Office estimates that very few people will have to enroll in new coverage.

21) “We should not have called Bashar Assad a reformer when he was turning his Russian-provided guns on his own people.” In March 2011, Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton noted (http://news.yahoo.com/fact-check-slips-vice-presidential-debate-075056482--election.html) [30] that “many of the members of Congress of both parties who have gone to Syria in recent months have said they believe he’s a reformer.” However, she did not endorse their view.

22) “When Barack Obama was elected, they had enough fissile material — nuclear material to make one bomb. Now they have enough for five.” This is misleading and unproven. Iran now has enough fissile material, but has not yet enriched to the necessary level for a weapon. The Institute for Science and International Security says “it would take Iran more than two months to produce that amount if it started with 20%-grade uranium, and ‘several months’ to make enough for a bomb using low-enriched uranium. That would give the world community enough time (http://edition.cnn.com/2012/10/12/politics/fact-check-iran-nuclear/index.html) [31] to detect the operation and organize a response, ISIS noted in June.”

23) “[Iran is] racing toward a nuclear weapon.” Israeli and American intelligence officials aren’t so sure (http://thinkprogress.org/security/2012/08/15/693371/former-israeli-army-chief-no-urgent-need-to-attack-iran/) [32].

24) “We don’t want to do is give our allies reason to trust us less [by announcing a withdrawal timeline for Afghanistan].” It’s unclear how our allies would trust us less since they too agreed to the timeline. As Biden pointed outed, “That’s a bizarre statement. .. Forty-nine of our allies — hear me — 49 of our allies signed on to this position.”

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/paul-ryan-told-24-myths-40-minutes

anybody got the "myths" for Ass-kicking Joe?

[ElNono]

:lmao:lmao:lmao

the polls seem to disagree with you

Do they? In order for any of these debates to matter, Mitt would need to start showing significant gains in swing states... so far: not happening.

[ElNono]

Well of course, there are always "some" but if you are saying that people (especially in this forum) by and large are impartial, that's naive. This forum is by and large left leaning. Young people are by and large left leaning. Sure there are exceptions, that's why I said "almost always" and not "always".

I'll just disagree that by merely "leaning" you're automatically team blue or team red. IMO, that's a fairly myopic read.

While there are a few staunch team players, there's also a good amount people that are not necessarily on either side of the fence but somewhere in-between.

[CosmicCowboy]

Do they? In order for any of these debates to matter, Mitt would need to start showing significant gains in swing states... so far: not happening.

You might want to check the latest polls

[CosmicCowboy]

A fact check by alternet????

:lmao:lmao:lmao

[DarrinS]

Yes, Biden cleared the very low bar set by his boss.

Obama was weirdly passive -- Biden weirdly aggressive.

At the end of the day, no one will care about this debate.

[rascal]

Yes, Biden cleared the very low bar set by his boss.

Obama was weirdly passive -- Biden weirdly aggressive.

At the end of the day, no one will care about this debate.

Looks like another unhappy Republican with the result of last night's debate.

[boutons_deux]

A fact check by alternet????

:lmao:lmao:lmao

Which checked facts do you disagree with?

[TheMACHINE]

Ryan was schooled. Biden countered every argument and left Ryan with nothing to say other than a defeated smirk.

well..i laugh at what you just said.

I win.

[CosmicCowboy]

Which checked facts do you disagree with?

:lol checked facts.

I'm not even going to waste my time by itemizing.

[boutons_deux]

:lol checked facts.

I'm not even going to waste my time by itemizing.

Of course not. Make up your facts.

[rjv]

again, we lost. not one single question about the environment, no discussion on our trade deficit (which is what really funded our wars) and unfettered free trade or capital flow and a huge digression on an essentially insignificant topic (abortion).

[boutons_deux]

VP Debate 2012: The Real Paul Ryan Is Bad for America

For the second time in as many presidential elections, Joseph Biden got to debate a young, attractive Republican candidate who was demonstrably less qualified to to be president than I am to be chairman of the World Bank. Joseph Biden is a very lucky man. The Great Political Matchmaker in the Sky keeps handing him people who are trying — and failing — to fight above their weight class, and he keeps blowing through what can now legitimately be called the Bum of the Quadrennium Club.

There is a deeply held Beltway myth of Paul Ryan, Man of Big Ideas, and it dies hard. But, if there is a just god in the universe, on Thursday night, it died a bloody death, was hurled into a pit, doused with quicklime, buried without ceremony, and the ground above it salted and strewn with garlic so that it never rises again. On foreign policy, Ryan occasionally rose, gasping, to the level of obvious neophyte. (He was more lost in Afghanistan than the Russian army ever was.) On domestic policy, his alleged wheelhouse, he was vague, untruthful, and he walked right into a haymaker he should have seen coming from a mile off, when he started bloviating about Biden's role in the "failed" stimulus program, only to have Biden slap him around with Ryan's own requests for stimulus money for his home district back in Wisconsin. He also made it quite clear that a Romney-Ryan White House will do everything it can to eliminate a woman's right to choose. This should make for some fine television commercials over the next few weeks.

(A brief note here about Martha Raddatz, who's an old pal from our baby journo days in Boston. She did a fine job holding feet to the fire until her last three questions. She asked the two men to define their Catholicism only through the issue of abortion, which is not only insulting, but also limited a more interesting line of inquiry, given the open opposition of the Catholic bishops to the zombie-eyed granny-starving that is the hallmark of Ryan's career. And that closing if-you-were-a-tree question was simply embarrassing.)

Moreover, the battering that Biden gave Ryan brought something into sharp relief that the Republican party has been fudging ever since Romney put the zombie-eyed granny-starver on the ticket — that, for his entire political career up to that point, on critical economic issues, Paul Ryan was an extremist even by the standards of the modern Republican party, which are considerably high indeed. He was for full privatization of Social Security. He was for the absolute elimination of the defined-benefit Medicare and Medicaid programs. Since being selected, it has become clear that the Romney people have forced him to soften these positions. (His stance on Medicare, for example, has evolved from Kill It Now to Arrange for Its Slow Death Later.) On Thursday night, Biden dragged out the old Paul Ryan — and, I would argue, the real Paul Ryan — and put him on display, and he made the new Paul Ryan own him. For one brief moment, he almost got Ryan to commit to Social Security privatization again. You could hear the screams from Romney headquarters all the way up the Charles to where I was watching.

Ryan got hit on the stimulus. He looked ridiculous trying to defend his refusal to specify what "loopholes" he and Romney plan to close to make the magic arithmetic in their tax plan work; Raddatz treed him completely on the mortgage-interest deduction, on the elimination of which neither Ryan nor his running mate will commit to a position. He looked even more ridiculous when Biden started pounding him on his career-long quest to end Medicare and throw old people onto the tender mercies of large insurance companies. Biden kept saying "vouchers" until Ryan, at one point, said, "It's not a voucher. A voucher is a check you get in your mailbox."

Wait. So if Paul Ryan gets his way, and Medicare as we know it gets eviscerated in favor of a pot full of offal on which Paul Ryan has slapped a label reading "Medicare," and my inadequate health-insurance allowance comes by e-mail, then it's not a "voucher" because it wasn't a check I got in the mail? And this is the issue on which Paul Ryan is supposed to be Genius on roller skates. This was humiliating enough, but when they started talking about war and peace, specifically in Afghanistan, Ryan looked like a toddler trying to cross the Hindu Kush.

He stammered. He vanished into his syntax. He gave Biden the chance to ask him if he preferred that American soldiers carry the fighting in the worst parts of the country rather than Afghan troops, a devastating comeback for which Ryan had no answer. He kept rambling about maintaining the country's "credibility" until, if you closed your eyes, he started to sound like Robert McNamara in 1965. And when Raddatz asked him, deftly, what would be worse, another war in the Middle East or Iran with a nuclear bomb, he leaped in precipitously with the latter, while about 75 percent of the country, including the two other people on stage with him, looked at Ryan as though he'd lost his mind. He did, however, demonstrate a certain talent for pronouncing long foreign words that his briefers had taught him on Tuesday. Also, he explained winter.

For years, Paul Ryan has been the shining champion of some really terrible ideas, and of a dystopian vision of the political commonwealth in which the poor starve and the elderly die ghastly, impoverished deaths, while all the essential elements of a permanent American oligarchy were put in place. This has garnered him loving notices from a lot of people who should have known better. The ideas he could explain were bad enough, but the profound ignorance he displayed on Thursday night on a number of important questions, including when and where the United States might wind up going to war next, and his blithe dismissal of any demand that he be specific about where he and his running mate are planning to take the country generally, was so positively terrifying that it calls into question Romney's judgment for putting this unqualified greenhorn on the ticket at all. Joe Biden laughed at him? Of course, he did. The only other option was to hand him a participation ribbon and take him to Burger King for lunch.

You know what's the difference between Sarah Palin and Paul Ryan?

Lipstick. :lol



http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/paul-ryan-debate-joe-biden-13626962#ixzz296UIq8pq

Man of Ideas! :lol

And a Wonky Math Wizard who REFUSES to do math, not enough time! :lol

[DarrinS]

Looks like another unhappy Republican with the result of last night's debate.


More like indifferent. I voted that it was a draw.

[rjv]

the encouraging thing is that more and more people are starting to realize that there is a minute separation between the parties and their candidates at this point. perhaps this will eventually lead to something more significant.

[boutons_deux]

More like indifferent. I voted that it was a draw.

and wonderfully overstating your boy's performance. He was badly exposed, and all you can do is hit Joe on "style" points, not substance.

[DMC]

I'll just disagree that by merely "leaning" you're automatically team blue or team red. IMO, that's a fairly myopic read.

While there are a few staunch team players, there's also a good amount people that are not necessarily on either side of the fence but somewhere in-between.

Although you scoff at it, it's fairly right down the middle every time. Left leaning people automatically disagree with right leaning people, and so polls that require you to chose one or the other often reflect the leanings, not so much the individual opinions on a particular non political subject (like "who won"). If you agree with everything Biden said, you think Biden won, couple that with the fact that you might find Ryan unsavory since he's a far right leaning candidate and that amplifies it. Sounds like profiling and perhaps it is but there's a reason that polls reflect the political views of the site as much as they reflect the individual views. It's the same reason that every state in the US other than Oklahoma thought that Miami would win the Finals. It's not about basketball knowledge, but about bias. That's hardly myopic. If anything, believing the opposite is myopic.

[johnsmith]

I haven't read anything on the debate, just listened to it for a bit. Sounded like both guys were ass holes and didn't answer anything.


Also, when did fact checkers start offering opinions and "versions" of the facts?

[xrayzebra]

FLASH: TV RATINGS FOR VP DEBATE DOWN SHARPLY... DEVELOPING...

CBS 10.4 MILLION
ABC 6.9 MILLION
NBC 6.8 MILLION
FOX 5.3 MILLION


So who cares who won, no one watched to speak of.

[101A]

It IS annoying - and it isn't helping Romney/Ryan NOT ever listing any specifics whatsoever when asked what deductions would be limited (actually I take that back - Romney mentioned a possible absolute cap on deductions). Ryan's diatribe about bi-partisan kumbaya moment rings hollow. A 20% across the board tax rate reduction WILL result in higher deficits. Specifics are required.

That said, as far as I can tell, the entire platform that Obama/Biden is running on is: We're NOT Republicans, and we WILL raise taxes on "The Rich" (fluctuates between "People like me", "Millionaires and Billionaires", "People who make over $250,000", "People who make over $1,000,000" and "The 1%").

All I know for SURE is these two parties have shared 100% responsibility for the situation we currently find ourselves in. They have both, at times, controlled everything, and they have each shared power from either the executive or legislative branches for well over a century. I have heard this same debate each election cycle for my entire voting life (first election '88) - NOTHING BEING PROPOSED IS NEW, AND NOTHING BEING PROPOSED IS GOING TO CHANGE ANYTHING!!!

For you Romney supporters - yes, the economy grew during Reagan, and Yes, he and Tipp did sit down and hammer out a tax reduction - but the spending cuts necessary to pay for it never happened; and the wealth that was created is certainly in part because of the big credit card the country was enjoying at unprecedented levels...

And you Obama supporters....the dude has been a crappy President. Although I didn't vote for him I DID have high hopes for his administration. He has failed as a leader, and he IS running this time without any new ideas, and is ONLY bashing his opponent and that IS exactly what he said to beware of just four short years ago.

I am afraid we ARE fucked, and unfuckable (at least for the time being).

Now you go about arguing amongst yourselves about which man sucked less last night.

[johnsmith]

I am afraid we ARE fucked, and unfuckable (at least for the time being).

.

How dare you!!!

[TeyshaBlue]

Of course not. Make up your facts.

lol alternet.borg

[TeyshaBlue]

Remember the lesbian assault, carving, and arson story that alternet carried? The one that dripped the enlightened progressive screed of hair-on-fire conservative intolerance?

Remember when the ensuing investigation found she did it all to herself?

Remember when alternet.borg carried the correction?

Of course not. They didn't.

[TeyshaBlue]

YOU LIE! PROVE that alternet DID NOT UPDATE THE STORY!

/boutons

[TeyshaBlue]

muthafuckin' hat trick.

[tp2021]

I also already told you that based on the debate alone I think that Ryan won and it was very close, but Biden made a complete buffoon out of himself and I believe that will effect a lot of votes for Obama.

So when your opponent is a buffoon and you barely win, what does that really say about you?

[tp2021]

I don't know how anyone can say Biden won this debate. I don't know how anyone would be proud to have this guy as the VP. He was tacky, bitter, rude, clumsy, stuttering, whinny and as our brother elnono said both are liars, so let's single out go old joe out as a liar too. Ryan won. God bless

I don't know how anyone would be proud to have to choose between giant douches and turd sandwiches every 4 years...and yet here we are, doing it again.

[CosmicCowboy]

A CNN survey of registered voters who watched the debate and had previously agreed to be interviewed found Paul Ryan the winner, 48 percent to 44 percent, but that was well within the survey's five percentage point margin of error. Respondents also said they thought Ryan communicated more clearly than Vice President Joe Biden, by a 50 percent to 41 percent margin, and that Ryan was more likable, 53 percent to 43 percent.

Those margins likely reflect the underlying partisan composition of the debate viewers that CNN interviewed. The cable network reported that slightly more Republicans viewed the debate (33 percent) than Democrats (31 percent), while 34 percent identified as independents.

The candidates performed similarly on whether respondents thought they were qualified to be president: 60 percent thought Ryan qualified and 38 percent did not. They said Biden was qualified by a 57 percent to 42 percent margin.

Fifty-five percent of CNN respondents said Biden performed better than they expected, 26 percent said he did worse, and 18 percent said he did the same as they expected. Ryan also impressed, with 51 percent saying he performed better, 19 percent worse, and 28 percent said he performed the same.

CNN surveyed 381 registered voters who had participated in a previous CNN poll, watched the debate, and agreed to be interviewed.

[CosmicCowboy]

A CBS News poll of uncommitted voters using an online panel found that both candidates made solid impressions, but that more of those voters felt that the debate was a win for Biden. The survey found that 50 percent thought Biden won, 31 percent that Ryan won, and 19 percent that the debate was a tie.


Biden saw a big increase from before the debate in the percentage of respondents who thought he had the ability to be an effective president if necessary. Prior to the debate, 39 percent said he had the ability to be an effective president, while 56 percent said so after. Ryan saw a smaller increase on this measure, from 45 percent before the debate to 49 percent after.

Biden also impressed respondents with his knowledge of the issues. After the debate, 85 percent of respondents said Biden was knowledgeable on the issues, while 75 percent said so of Ryan.

The candidates were more closely matched on whether respondents said they could relate to them. Before the debate, 34 percent of respondents said they could relate to Biden, while 55 percent said so after. Ryan's rating on the measure increased from 31 percent to 48 percent.

The CBS News poll was conducted using the GfK KnowledgePanel, a representative Internet panel, to interview 431 uncommitted voters who watched the debate, and had a five percentage point margin of error. The CBS "uncommitted voters" include those who were either totally undecided before the debate or who were leaning to a candidate, but said they may still change their minds. According to CBS, 58 percent of respondents identified as independents, 17 percent as Republicans, and 25 percent as Democrats.

[ElNono]

You might want to check the latest polls

Although Mr. Obama got a distinctly poor poll in Florida, which showed him seven points behind there, the rest of Thursday’s state-level data, like a series of polls by Quinnipiac University and Marist College, were reasonably good for him. In surveys of competitive states that were released over the course of the day, he held the lead with 11 polls to Mitt Romney’s 6.

538 (http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com)

[CosmicCowboy]

Although Mr. Obama got a distinctly poor poll in Florida, which showed him seven points behind there, the rest of Thursday’s state-level data, like a series of polls by Quinnipiac University and Marist College, were reasonably good for him. In surveys of competitive states that were released over the course of the day, he held the lead with 11 polls to Mitt Romney’s 6.

538 (http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com)

Still trending towards Romney, though..

[DMC]

Since when did the VP even matter? Johnson, that's the last time. There are very few instances where a VP could have EVER won an election on their own. Gore was the VP during one of the most pronounced presidencies of all time, and he couldn't even carry his own fucking state.

[boutons_deux]

the economy has been going downturn for many years since even before bush took office. the snow ball has been rolling & growing for so many years its beyond possible to melt it down in just a few years, obama is a terrible motherfucker who's basically done nothing right to this country but it isn't like you or anyone else could've done any better than he did imho, and romney could be even worse

You lie.

The internet bubble popped in mid-2000. dickhead came into office saying repeatedly after the election how shitty the economy was getting to make sure the blame stuck to Clinton.

Now, the obstructionist, austerity-loving Repugs blame the Banksters Great Depression economy exclusively on Barry.

[ElNono]

Although you scoff at it, it's fairly right down the middle every time. Left leaning people automatically disagree with right leaning people, and so polls that require you to chose one or the other often reflect the leanings, not so much the individual opinions on a particular non political subject (like "who won"). If you agree with everything Biden said, you think Biden won, couple that with the fact that you might find Ryan unsavory since he's a far right leaning candidate and that amplifies it. Sounds like profiling and perhaps it is but there's a reason that polls reflect the political views of the site as much as they reflect the individual views. It's the same reason that every state in the US other than Oklahoma thought that Miami would win the Finals. It's not about basketball knowledge, but about bias. That's hardly myopic. If anything, believing the opposite is myopic.

The inference that you know how or why people vote on polls like this is part of the myopia. Plenty of people expressed they don't buy what Biden or Ryan (or Barry/Mitt) are selling, and thus the vote might reflect a different criteria entirely (ie: I pointed out the 'style points' before). As a matter of fact, quite a few people that voted Biden now, voted Romney in the previous poll.

The NBA analogy doesn't really apply to what I pointed out, because I don't disagree that there's bias. My argument is that having a certain bias doesn't automatically make you a drone that's encapsulated into the red or blue team. There's plenty of people that have differing leaning based on different topics. It's not necessarily rare to find people that are, for example, fiscally conservative and socially liberal. Inferring that a person is a democrat or a republican in such a case can be an exercise in futility.

[ElNono]

Since when did the VP even matter? Johnson, that's the last time. There are very few instances where a VP could have EVER won an election on their own. Gore was the VP during one of the most pronounced presidencies of all time, and he couldn't even carry his own fucking state.

That's exactly what I pointed out. IIRC, historically speaking, even presidential debates have shown bounces, but not necessarily a major swing when all is said and done.

[ElNono]

It IS annoying - and it isn't helping Romney/Ryan NOT ever listing any specifics whatsoever when asked what deductions would be limited (actually I take that back - Romney mentioned a possible absolute cap on deductions). Ryan's diatribe about bi-partisan kumbaya moment rings hollow. A 20% across the board tax rate reduction WILL result in higher deficits. Specifics are required.

That said, as far as I can tell, the entire platform that Obama/Biden is running on is: We're NOT Republicans, and we WILL raise taxes on "The Rich" (fluctuates between "People like me", "Millionaires and Billionaires", "People who make over $250,000", "People who make over $1,000,000" and "The 1%").

All I know for SURE is these two parties have shared 100% responsibility for the situation we currently find ourselves in. They have both, at times, controlled everything, and they have each shared power from either the executive or legislative branches for well over a century. I have heard this same debate each election cycle for my entire voting life (first election '88) - NOTHING BEING PROPOSED IS NEW, AND NOTHING BEING PROPOSED IS GOING TO CHANGE ANYTHING!!!

For you Romney supporters - yes, the economy grew during Reagan, and Yes, he and Tipp did sit down and hammer out a tax reduction - but the spending cuts necessary to pay for it never happened; and the wealth that was created is certainly in part because of the big credit card the country was enjoying at unprecedented levels...

And you Obama supporters....the dude has been a crappy President. Although I didn't vote for him I DID have high hopes for his administration. He has failed as a leader, and he IS running this time without any new ideas, and is ONLY bashing his opponent and that IS exactly what he said to beware of just four short years ago.

I am afraid we ARE fucked, and unfuckable (at least for the time being).

Now you go about arguing amongst yourselves about which man sucked less last night.

100% agree with this.

[Yonivore]

I don't know how many lies Joe Biden told last night but there were three whoppers (Okay, one whopper and two statements that were either whoppers or reveal an incompetence worse than a lie):

1) "We did not know the Consulate in Benghazi was requesting more security." For fuck's sake, there had been dozens of security incidents at the consulate over the previous year, the anniversary of 9-11 was approaching, the mid-east has been in an agitated state for over a year and this administration not only wasn't aware the consulate in Benghazi wanted more security -- THEY DIDN'T EVEN THINK TO ASSESS AND HAVE A BASIC UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT WAS THE SECURITY SITUATION IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD? I find that hard to believe. Throwing the State Department under the bus on that issue, last night, will come back to haunt the President and Vice President.

2) "We were only repeating what the Intelligence Community was saying about what caused the violence in Benghazi." According to Congressional testimony, the Intelligence community and the State Department knew withing 24 hours (after suspecting as much since the Consulate was breached) that the assassination of our Ambassador and the assault on the facility was the work of terrorists -- probably al Qaeda yet, the President and his spokesman continued, for almost a week, to advance the narrative that the violence was a spontaneous protest by people upset over a YouTube video.

3) “With regard to the assault on the Catholic Church, let me make it absolutely clear. No religious institution—Catholic or otherwise, including Catholic social services, Georgetown hospital, Mercy hospital, any hospital—none has to either refer contraception, none has to pay for contraception, none has to be a vehicle to get contraception in any insurance policy they provide. That is a fact. That is a fact.” No, It is not a fact. Here, let the U. S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (http://www.lifenews.com/2012/10/12/catholic-bishops-biden-misrepresented-hhs-mandate-in-debate/) explain...




Last night, the following statement was made during the Vice Presidential debate regarding the decision of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) to force virtually all employers to include sterilization and contraception, including drugs that may cause abortion, in the health insurance coverage they provide their employees:


“With regard to the assault on the Catholic Church, let me make it absolutely clear. No religious institution—Catholic or otherwise, including Catholic social services, Georgetown hospital, Mercy hospital, any hospital—none has to either refer contraception, none has to pay for contraception, none has to be a vehicle to get contraception in any insurance policy they provide. That is a fact. That is a fact.”

This is not a fact. The HHS mandate contains a narrow, four-part exemption for certain “religious employers.” That exemption was made final in February and does not extend to “Catholic social services, Georgetown hospital, Mercy hospital, any hospital,” or any other religious charity that offers its services to all, regardless of the faith of those served.

HHS has proposed an additional “accommodation” for religious organizations like these, which HHS itself describes as “non-exempt.” That proposal does not even potentially relieve these organizations from the obligation “to pay for contraception” and “to be a vehicle to get contraception.” They will have to serve as a vehicle, because they will still be forced to provide their employees with health coverage, and that coverage will still have to include sterilization, contraception, and abortifacients. They will have to pay for these things, because the premiums that the organizations (and their employees) are required to pay will still be applied, along with other funds, to cover the cost of these drugs and surgeries.

USCCB continues to urge HHS, in the strongest possible terms, actually to eliminate the various infringements on religious freedom imposed by the mandate.

If the man was willing to spew bald-faced lies on those three things when the truth is already known by most of the general public, about what else was he lying that, perhaps, the rest of us aren't so versed?

Combine that with his juvenile demeanor -- throughout the debate -- and I think he did the President no favors last night. Someone counted nearly 20 times that Biden interrupted Paul Ryan -- and then he had the gall to complain to the moderator that he wanted a chance to respond? :lmao

Biden's a joke.

[DMC]

The inference that you know how or why people vote on polls like this is part of the myopia. I am speaking of how polls reflect bias, not why anecdotal examples of fliers disagree.

Plenty of people expressed they don't buy what Biden or Ryan (or Barry/Mitt) are selling, and thus the vote might reflect a different criteria entirely (ie: I pointed out the 'style points' before). As a matter of fact, quite a few people that voted Biden now, voted Romney in the previous poll.The term "plenty of people" is meaningless if it doesn't change the numbers in the poll. The reason why bias affects judgement is the same reason why bias effects polls since polls are based often on snap judgements and not long, thought out decisions. They might not accurately reflect how the person will vote given time to consider the options, but you cannot really deny that party leanings affect poll responses on who won. It's not dishonesty, it's just bias.


The NBA analogy doesn't really apply to what I pointed out, because I don't disagree that there's bias. My argument is that having a certain bias doesn't automatically make you a drone that's encapsulated into the red or blue team. There's plenty of people that have differing leaning based on different topics. It's not necessarily rare to find people that are, for example, fiscally conservative and socially liberal. Inferring that a person is a democrat or a republican in such a case can be an exercise in futility.You're pointing out the exceptions and I am pointing out the rule.

[DMC]

You lie.

The internet bubble popped in mid-2000. dickhead came into office saying repeatedly after the election how shitty the economy was getting to make sure the blame stuck to Clinton.

Now, the obstructionist, austerity-loving Repugs blame the Banksters Great Depression economy exclusively on Barry.
Really great revisionist history. The banking issues weren't internet bubble related, and the internet bubble had nothing to do with the POTUS. There was nothing there that justified those stock prices, and that was predicted and some people knew it, sold and got out. It's the EMU thing x infinity. People got too caught up in the stocks without even considering they weren't really backed by anything. It's like needing electricity and paying a million dollars for a piece of conduit and thinking you have a million dollar system because of it.

[ErnestLynch]

Biden won in being creepy. Ryan was clearly more hydrated as the debate progressed.

[boutons_deux]

10 Best Biden Put-Downs of Paul Ryan in Veep Debate1. “A bunch of malarkey.” Moderator Martha Raddatz of ABC News opened the debate with a question about last month’s attack on the U.S. consulate in Libya, to which Ryan responded with a claim that the Obama administration was cutting defense spending to dangerous levels, and that it had put the Benghazi consulate in danger by failing to provide enough security.

“With all due respect,” Biden replied, “that’s a bunch of malarkey...

“I will be very specific,” Biden said. “Number one, this lecture on embassy security -- ** the congressman here cut embassy security in his budget by $300 million below what we asked for, number one. So much for the embassy security piece.

“Number two, Governor Romney, before he knew the facts, before he even knew that our ambassador was killed, he was out making a political statement which was panned by the media around the world. And this talk about this **this weakness. I don't understand what my friend's talking about here.”

2. “Betting against America.” Pivoting on Ryan’s claim that the U.S. is signaling weakness through defense cuts, Biden added: “Look, I just -- **I mean, these guys bet against America all the time."

3. Dissing Grover the Great. It has long been the case that in order to ensure the goodwill of right-wing donors, Republican candidates for Congress have felt compelled to sign (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57497502/the-pledge-grover-norquists-hold-on-the-gop/) [4], under pressure from Americans for Tax Reform President Grover Norquist, a pledge that they will not raise taxes under virtually any circumstances. Ryan is no exception. During a discussion of tax policy, Biden invoked Norquist’s name.

“nstead of signing pledges to Grover Norquist not to ask the wealthiest among us to contribute to bring back the middle class,” Biden said, “they should be signing a pledge saying to the middle class we're going to level the playing field; we're going to give you a fair shot again; we are going to not repeat the mistakes we made in the past by having a different set of rules for Wall Street and Main Street, making sure that we continue to hemorrhage these tax cuts for the super wealthy.”

4. “Stop talking about how you care about people.” As part of the tax policy discussion, Biden let loose with a riff that painted Republican resistance to taxing the wealthiest as a form of disregard for the rest of the country, telling Ryan that if Republicans would “just get out of the way” of passing a jobs bill, things would get better for the middle class.

“Stop talking about how you care about people,” Biden said. “Show me something. Show me a policy. Show me a policy where you take responsibility.

He continued: “And, by the way, they talk about this Great Recession if it fell out of the sky, like, 'Oh, my goodness, where did it come from?' It came from this man voting to put two wars on a credit card, to at the same time put a prescription drug benefit on the credit card, a trillion-*dollar tax cut for the very wealthy. I was there. I voted against them. I said, no, we can't afford that. And now, all of a sudden, these guys are so seized with the concern about the debt that they created.”

5. The 47 percent and a bridge for sale. About this time last week, liberals and progressives were scratching their heads, wondering why Obama, in his debate with Romney, never mentioned the governor’s infamous comments, made in secretly recorded video obtained by [I]Mother Jones (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/09/watch-full-secret-video-private-romney-fundraiser) [5], suggesting that 47 percent of the American people are moochers who “believe that they are victims” and feel “entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you name it.” Biden was all too happy to pick up the slack.

After Obama deprived Romney the opportunity to apologize for those remarks during the presidential debate, Romney appeared on Fox News Channel’s Hannity show to say he had been wrong to say what he did -- that it had been a big mistake.

Biden was having none of it. “The idea,** if you heard that **that little soliloquy on 47 percent and you think he just made a mistake, then I think you're **--** I think **I got a bridge to sell you,” he said.

It was the capper to Biden’s comments about Romney, Ryan and the middle class, viewed through the prism of Romney’s opposition to bailout loans for the auto industry, and mortgage refinancing for people who are about to lose their homes. Throughout the debate, Biden referred to Ryan as “my friend.”

“Romney said: ‘No, let Detroit go bankrupt,’” Biden said. “We moved in and helped people refinance their homes. Governor Romney said: ‘No, let foreclosures hit the bottom.’ But it shouldn't be surprising for a guy who says 47 percent of the American people are unwilling to take responsibility for their own lives. My friend recently in a speech (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/02/paul-ryan-30-percent-welfare-state_n_1933730.html) [6] in Washington said 30 percent of the American people are takers.

“These people are my mom and dad,** the people I grew up with, my neighbors,” Biden went on. “They pay more effective tax than Gov. Romney pays in his federal income tax. They are elderly people who, in fact, are living off of Social Security. They are veterans and people fighting in Afghanistan right now who are, quote, ‘not paying any tax.’"

6. “A bunch of stuff” -- and more malarkey. In an exchange on Iran’s efforts to obtain a nuclear weapon, Ryan took Biden to task, alleging that the administration has not been tough enough, and sought to weaken the economic sanctions against Tehran that are currently in place. What followed is priceless enough that a bit of transcript (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/vice-presidential-debate-transcript-danvilel-ky-oct-11/story?id=17457175) [7] is required to appreciate the full effect:

BIDEN: This is a bunch of stuff. Look, here's the deal.

RADDATZ: What does that mean, a bunch of stuff?

BIDEN: Well, it means it's simply inaccurate.

RYAN: It's Irish.

BIDEN: It ** it is. We Irish call it malarkey.

RADDATZ: Thanks for the translation. Okay..

BIDEN: I don't know what world this guy's living in.

RYAN: Thank heavens we had these sanctions in place. It's in spite of their opposition.

BIDEN: Oh, God.
7. “By the way, can you send me some stimulus money?” Ryan’s opposition to the Obama administration’s stimulus spending is legendary; he even termed it “crony capitalism” in the debate. Biden was ready for him, citing two letters sent by Ryan to the Department of Energy, requesting a share of stimulus dollars for companies in his district in Wisconsin.

“And I love my friend here,” Biden said, with a flash of teeth. “I'm not allowed to show letters, but go on our Web site -- he sent me two letters (http://abcnews.go.com/images/Politics/2012_08_13_10_36_08.pdf) [8] saying: ‘By the way, can you send me some stimulus money for companies here in the state of Wisconsin?’ We sent millions of dollars...

“I love that,” Biden went on. “I love that. This was such a bad program and he writes me a letter saying --** writes the Department of Energy a letter saying: ‘The reason we need this stimulus, it will create growth and jobs.’ His words. And now he's sitting here looking at me.”

8. Forcible rape. As the debate drew to a close, the candidates were asked to articulate their positions on abortion in the context of their shared Catholic faith -- a rather inappropriate way to do so, but, whatever. Biden quickly pivoted from his own position (personally opposed to abortion, but believes it should be legal), to Ryan’s most extreme articulation of his own, which puts him in a league with Missouri senatorial candidate Todd Akin, with whom Ryan co-sponsored anti-abortion legislation that would have redefined rape (http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/08/19/712251/how-todd-akin-and-paul-ryan-partnered-to-redefine-rape/) [9] to a narrower definition for the purpose of closing the exception to the ban on Medicaid-funded abortions for women whose pregnancies are the result of sexual assault.

Without ever mentioning Akin’s name, Biden implicitly tied Ryan to Akin’s notorious remarks about “legitimate rape.”

“[M]y friend says that he **-- well, I guess he accepts Governor Romney's position now, because in the past he has argued that there was there's rape and forcible rape,” Biden, who authored the Violence Against Women Act, said. “He's argued that in the case of rape or incest...it would be a crime to engage in having an abortion. I just fundamentally disagree with my friend.”

9. You’re no Jack Kennedy. In the 1988 vice presidential debate between the seasoned Sen. Lloyd Bentsen, D-Texas, and the callow Sen. Dan Quayle, R-Ind., Quayle made the fatal mistake of comparing his tenure in the Senate to that of the late President John F. Kennedy. “Senator, I knew Jack Kennedy,” Bentsen retorted (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-7gpgXNWYI) [10] (video). “Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine. And, Senator, you’re no Jack Kennedy.”

In the 2012 debate, the seasoned Biden subtly invoked the memory of that line when his much younger opponent wandered into the same territory as had Quayle. From the transcript (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/vice-presidential-debate-transcript-danvilel-ky-oct-11/story?id=17457175) [7]:

RYAN: You can ** you can cut tax rates by 20 percent and still preserve these important preferences for middle* class taxpayers...

BIDEN: Not mathematically possible.

RYAN: It is mathematically possible. It's been done before. It's precisely what we're proposing. BIDEN: It has never been done before.

RYAN: It's been done a couple of times, actually.

BIDEN: It has never been done before.

RYAN: Jack Kennedy lowered tax rates, increased growth. Ronald Reagan--

BIDEN: Oh, now you're Jack Kennedy?
10. But you may be Sarah Palin. During a discussion of the Obama administration’s changes to Medicare via the Affordable Care Act, Ryan tried to paint a commision established by the bill as panel created to ration health care.

“You know, I heard that death panel argument from Sarah Palin,” Biden replied. “It seems every vice presidential debate I hear this kind of stuff about panels.”


http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/10-best-biden-put-downs-veep-debate

[ElNono]

I am speaking of how polls reflect bias, not why anecdotal examples of fliers disagree.

Well, no, you're projecting what you infer as bias to encapsulate a poster (in this case ploto) into a party.


The term "plenty of people" is meaningless if it doesn't change the numbers in the poll. The reason why bias affects judgement is the same reason why bias effects polls since polls are based often on snap judgements and not long, thought out decisions. They might not accurately reflect how the person will vote given time to consider the options, but you cannot really deny that party leanings affect poll responses on who won. It's not dishonesty, it's just bias.

But it did change the numbers in the poll. I count 6 votes for Biden in this poll, that went to Romney in the previous poll.
I'm also not sure what you mean by 'party leanings'. Perhaps it's because I didn't grow up within this system, so I don't necessarily subscribe to either party.


You're pointing out the exceptions and I am pointing out the rule.

Well, I would agree it's a minority (exception sounds like a very tiny portion, and I don't agree to characterize it like that). I think it's pretty well known neither party base can win an election on their own, thus that minority certainly has a big impact.

[boutons_deux]

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2012-10-12-Screenshot20121012at10.32.37AM.jpg

[ploto]

FLASH: TV RATINGS FOR VP DEBATE DOWN SHARPLY... DEVELOPING...

CBS 10.4 MILLION
ABC 6.9 MILLION
NBC 6.8 MILLION
FOX 5.3 MILLION

So who cares who won, no one watched to speak of.

That is also why you have to ask who was watching to answer the polls.

[LnGrrrR]

If the man was willing to spew bald-faced lies on those three things when the truth is already known by most of the general public, about what else was he lying that, perhaps, the rest of us aren't so versed?

Surely then, you took the time to see how many lies Ryan said, right?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

muthafuckin' hat trick.

hockey sucks so even though i want to see the humor i just cannot. its like making jokes about bus-fires.

Oh wait.

[101A]

If the man was willing to spew bald-faced lies on those three things when the truth is already known by most of the general public, about what else was he lying that, perhaps, the rest of us aren't so versed?

That he voted to authorize BOTH wars he claimed to have voted against, for instance?

[RandomGuy]

Biden's a joke.

The only joke, and it is a dark, sad one, is how much your candidates are willing to lie to get elected. I kinda knew Obama was bluffing about shit during his initial election, and know a lot better than to trust him now, but I have been truly taken aback at how low your party and its candidates are willing to stoop to get the White House back.

It fits with the "winning at all costs" mentality that has been fevering your brains since the late nineties.

[Yonivore]

Surely then, you took the time to see how many lies Ryan said, right?
I didn't hear Ryan lie. Do tell.

[RandomGuy]

I also found it highly ironic that Mr. Numbers couldn't be honest about the loopholes he would have to close to get a 20% rate reduction.

Not that I blame him, you would have to take a lot of tax code gimmies to a lot of people to make the math work. Given Ryans wonkish bent, he knows this, which is why he evaded with vague talk of "frameworks".

I happen to support that, BTW. The tax code needs simplifying.

I just don't trust the GOP to do it.

[Yonivore]

That he voted to authorize BOTH wars he claimed to have voted against, for instance?
That was another whopper.

[ElNono]

I didn't hear Ryan lie.

You didn't watch the debate?

[RandomGuy]

I didn't hear Ryan lie. Do tell.

:rofl

You wouldn't hear him lie if he was telling you that you had eight arms, a potted plant for a head, and unicorn hooves. You would nod and say it was the best policy idea you had ever heard, and you fucking know it.

[RandomGuy]

But, that said, challenge accepted.

I don't think you really want to know how much you being lied to Yonivore. Might have to wait for the weekend, but it should be interesting to see the Republican version of "hope and change" for what it is.

[Yonivore]

:rofl

You wouldn't hear him lie if he was telling you that you had eight arms, a potted plant for a head, and unicorn hooves. You would nod and say it was the best policy idea you had ever heard, and you fucking know it.
So, you and ElNono got nothing?

[RandomGuy]

sons who won the debate tonight?

try to give an honest vote on what you saw tonight. do not base it on your political views.

Draw, for the most part. Biden got a bit too testy to be likeable, but did not let Ryan get away with lying through his teeth.

[RandomGuy]

So, you and ElNono got nothing?

Dude, even you know me better. Don't confuse "no time to get into it" with "nothing to back it up".

(sigh)

[Yonivore]

Draw, for the most part. Biden got a bit too testy to be likeable, but did not let Ryan get away with lying through his teeth.
You know, when you interrupt someone to "correct" them and your "correction" is a lie, that doesn't make the original point a lie.

He interrupted Ryan to lie about Libya. He interrupted Ryan to lie about his votes on the military actions in Iraq and Afghanistan. He interrupted Ryan to lie about the administration's position on forcing the Catholic church to provide birth control and abortifacients. He interrupted Ryan just to stop him from telling the truth about how ineffective and absolutely bankrupt of ideas the current administration is.

[Yonivore]

Dude, even you know me better. Don't confuse "no time to get into it" with "nothing to back it up".

(sigh)
You've got time to tell me you don't have time but no time to tell me one lie told by Paul Ryan?

Oh, and I don't know you at all...don't care to, either.

[ElNono]

I'll just point one out, from the transcript:

RYAN: "We cannot allow Iran to gain a nuclear weapons capability. Now, let's take a look at where we've gone — come from. When Barack Obama was elected, they had enough fissile material — nuclear material — to make one bomb. Now they have enough for five."

That's a flat out lie. It's not even debatable. Netanyahu himself advocated for a 20% enrichment "red line" last month. A bomb requires 93% enrichment.

[ElNono]

He interrupted Ryan's lie to lie about Libya. He interrupted Ryan's lie to lie about his votes on the military actions in Iraq and Afghanistan. He interrupted Ryan's lie to lie about the administration's position on forcing the Catholic church to provide birth control and abortifacients.

fify

[mercos]

This debate was even more lopsided than the first debate. Biden bullied Paul Ryan throughout. The Congressman came across as weak, and feeble. Dick Morris was killing him on Twitter throughout the first hour. You can tell just how bad it was when Republicans main line of defense is that Biden laughed and smiled to much and that the moderator was not fair to Ryan. The experience gap was noticeable throughout.

The one moment that stands out to me is when Biden called Ryan out for asking for stimulus funds right after Ryan tried attacking the stimulus. It was a gotcha moment on par with Dick Cheney's "This is the first time I've ever seen you" line with John Edwards. It was a shot that struck Ryan right in his credibility.

All that being said, I don't expect this to move the needle much. I think it will stop the bleeding from the first debate, and the polls will stabilize. The debate on Tuesday will be pretty significant. If Obama loses again, it will be a big hit to his credibility, and he may not be able to overcome it.

[LnGrrrR]

I didn't hear Ryan lie. Do tell.

What? You didn't hear any of his lies? I'm shocked, SHOCKED, I tell you.

Here's a few for you: http://factcheck.org/2012/10/veep-debate-violations/


Ryan was wrong when he said a rise in the jobless rate in Biden’s hometown was “how it’s going all around America.” The rate nationally has sunk back to where it was when Obama took office. And in Ryan’s hometown, it’s more than 4 percentage points lower that it was at the start of Obama’s term.



Ryan was off base when he said of a cost-saving panel created by the Affordable Care Act, “not one of them even has to have medical training.” Actually, the board must include physicians and other health care professionals among its members.




Ryan at one point ground out a collection of shopworn misstatements about the health care law that we’ve had to rebut time and again, claiming “20 million people … are projected to lose their health insurance” (not true), that premiums have gone up $3,000 (no, they haven’t) and that 7.4 million seniors “are going to lose” Medicare Advantage plans (maybe, but they’d still be covered by traditional Medicare).


Here's another! http://elections.nytimes.com/2012/debates/vice-presidential/2012-10-11


The claim of Mr. Obama apologizing for American values has been repeatedly found to be inaccurate: While Mr. Obama has acknowledged American failings at times — and, like his predecessor, George W. Bush, has on at least one occasion apologized for a specific act of American wrongdoing abroad — he has never explicitly apologized for American values or diplomacy.


And hey, one of your "fact checks" left out the part Ryan got wrong... http://m.jacksonville.com/news/national/2012-10-12/story/vp-debate-fact-check-joe-biden-paul-ryan-both-make-slips


RYAN: "What troubles me more is how this administration has handled all of these issues. Look at what they're doing through Obamacare with respect to assaulting the religious liberties of this country. They're infringing upon our first freedom, the freedom of religion, by infringing on Catholic charities, Catholic churches, Catholic hospitals."

THE FACTS: The requirement under the health care law that most employers cover birth control free of charge to female employees does not apply to churches, houses of worship, or other institutions directly involved in propagating a religious faith. It does apply to church-affiliated institutions such as hospitals and charities that serve the general public.


So, there's some anyways...

[ElNono]

What? You didn't hear any of his lies? I'm shocked, SHOCKED, I tell you.

:lol

[ElNono]

It's like boutons... he thought Biden was honest throughout :lol

[Yonivore]

I'll just point one out, from the transcript:

RYAN: "We cannot allow Iran to gain a nuclear weapons capability. Now, let's take a look at where we've gone — come from. When Barack Obama was elected, they had enough fissile material — nuclear material — to make one bomb. Now they have enough for five."

That's a flat out lie. It's not even debatable. Netanyahu himself advocated for a 20% enrichment "red line" last month. A bomb requires 93% enrichment.
Frankly, given the intelligence communities failures over the past 15 years, from Iraq to Benghazi, I don't think anyone has a clear picture of exactly where Iran is in the process of acquiring nuclear weapons. What we do know is that they're hell bent on doing so, the current administration has done NOTHING to stem that ambition (remember when Obama was going to open a dialog with Iran? :lmao ) , and Iran is closer today than they were on January 21, 2009.

I believe the "lie" to which you refer was a statement on how much fissile material Iran had in their possession. It devolved into a Joe Biden interruption about enrichment and delivery systems. Enriched or not, briefcase or ICBM attached, do they have enough fissile material to make 5 weapons or not? And, how do you know?

That's a weak claim. You've got to top Biden's lie about the Catholic Church.

[LnGrrrR]

Enriched or not, briefcase or ICBM attached, do they have enough fissile material to make 5 weapons or not? And, how do you know?

Do you know? I don't know why'd you believe Ryan's claim over Biden's. Ryan made the claim, does he have any proof? As you said above, given the state of the intelligence community, you don't think ANYONE has a clear picture of exactly where Iran is in the process of acquiring nuclear weapons. Yet, Ryan specified they have enough material to build 5 bombs, which seems rather "clear". How do you reconcile these two thoughts?

[ElNono]

Frankly, given the intelligence communities failures over the past 15 years, from Iraq to Benghazi, I don't think anyone has a clear picture of exactly where Iran is in the process of acquiring nuclear weapons.

Your ignorance about what the intelligence community knows about Iran's enrichment process is no excuse. It's well known the US and Israel involvement into hijacking, monitoring and controlling their centrifuges (you could start by googling Operation Olympic Games) for many years now.

I'm fairly sure Israel has a pretty clear picture on where Iran is at with their process. In fact, I'm pretty sure Ryan does too, thus the reason it's an outright lie.
Why would Netanyahu advocate for a 20% enrichment "red line" if he can't know what level of enrichment Iran has?

[Yonivore]

1. I think his point was that high unemployment is "how it's going all around America." But, if you want to get into the meat of the matter; add back in all those who have quit looking for work and the unemployment rate is in double digits.

2. Care to cite the specific section of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act that says the death panel "must" include physicians and other health care professionals? I'm not doubting you but, this is a minor point that he could have gotten wrong. The existence of an unelected panel of bureaucrats that will have power over the provision of services as a way of cutting costs is bad enough.

3. If you like your doctor you can keep him. If you like your insurance you can keep it. Your insurance premiums will go down. All of those were declarative statements by the Obama administration. I have no idea whether Ryan's numbers are right or wrong but, I do know those three statements are false.

4. Obama has made a point of traveling the world and diminishing our prestige; whether is is by showing undue deference to other world leaders, claiming the United States is no more exceptional than any other nation, or telling President Medvedev to tell Putin to be patient and that he'd have more flexibility after the election. He has repeated apologized. That's not a lie, that's a characterization of his interaction with other foreign leaders.

5. Catholic organizations, whether they be the church, a hospital, charity, or insurance provider all adhere to the tenets of the Catholic faith and to force them to provide birth control, abortifacients, or abortions is anathema to that faith and a violation of their first amendment rights.

[ElNono]

:downspin: baby :downspin:

[Yonivore]

:downspin: baby :downspin:
Biden can't even spin his lies.

[ElNono]

2. Care to cite the specific section of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act that says the death panel "must" include physicians and other health care professionals?

There's no mention of death panels in the ACA (http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-111hr3590enr/pdf/BILLS-111hr3590enr.pdf). As far as the Independent Medicare Advisory Board:

Section 3404 (g) (1) (B)
QUALIFICATIONS.—

(i) IN GENERAL.—The appointed membership of the Board shall include individuals with national recognition for their expertise in health finance and economics, actuarial science, health facility management, health plans and integrated delivery systems, reimbursement of health facilities, allopathic and osteopathic physicians, and other providers of health services, and other related fields, who provide a mix of different professionals, broad geographic representation, and a balance between urban and rural representatives.

[TeyshaBlue]

There's no mention of death panels in the ACA (http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-111hr3590enr/pdf/BILLS-111hr3590enr.pdf). As far as the Independent Medicare Advisory Board:

Section 3404 (g) (1) (B)
QUALIFICATIONS.—

(i) IN GENERAL.—The appointed membership of the Board shall include individuals with national recognition for their expertise in health finance and economics, actuarial science, health facility management, health plans and integrated delivery systems, reimbursement of health facilities, allopathic and osteopathic physicians, and other providers of health services, and other related fields, who provide a mix of different professionals, broad geographic representation, DARTH VADER and a balance between urban and rural representatives.



fify

[boutons_deux]

PussyEater and TB ignoring that corporate death panels already and truly due exist, have forevere. And as we saw in the suit in CA that got a fine of $200M, manangers have been incentivized by quota to deny care and cancel insurance policies to save money.

[LnGrrrR]

1. I think his point was that high unemployment is "how it's going all around America." But, if you want to get into the meat of the matter; add back in all those who have quit looking for work and the unemployment rate is in double digits.

2. Care to cite the specific section of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act that says the death panel "must" include physicians and other health care professionals? I'm not doubting you but, this is a minor point that he could have gotten wrong. The existence of an unelected panel of bureaucrats that will have power over the provision of services as a way of cutting costs is bad enough.

3. If you like your doctor you can keep him. If you like your insurance you can keep it. Your insurance premiums will go down. All of those were declarative statements by the Obama administration. I have no idea whether Ryan's numbers are right or wrong but, I do know those three statements are false.

4. Obama has made a point of traveling the world and diminishing our prestige; whether is is by showing undue deference to other world leaders, claiming the United States is no more exceptional than any other nation, or telling President Medvedev to tell Putin to be patient and that he'd have more flexibility after the election. He has repeated apologized. That's not a lie, that's a characterization of his interaction with other foreign leaders.

5. Catholic organizations, whether they be the church, a hospital, charity, or insurance provider all adhere to the tenets of the Catholic faith and to force them to provide birth control, abortifacients, or abortions is anathema to that faith and a violation of their first amendment rights.

1) Ah, so they should change the way they calculate the numbers to look bad. Makes sense. He said that the unemployment rate is higher in this town, and that's how it is across America. It's a lie. Unemployment isn't a point or more higher across the country.

2) A "minor point he got wrong"? So when Biden is incorrect, he's a liar, but when Ryan is incorrect, it's a minor point he got wrong. Gotcha.

3) You ask me to cite the specific provisions on number 2, but don't provide proof for your assertions for comment 3, then immediately state you haven't bothered looking up the numbers for what Ryan is saying. Interesting debate tactics.

4) Can you find an instance where Obama has explicitly apologized? If you can't, then it's a lie.

5) Except they're not forcing churches to do so, which Ryan said they are. Ryan didn't say "catholic organizations", he specially said, "catholic churches" in his list. Therefore, a lie. Or a "minor point he got wrong", depending on your view. See how easy that is?

[boutons_deux]

It's like boutons... he thought Biden was honest throughout :lol

link?

[ElNono]

fify

thanks, tbh

[ElNono]

link?

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204139&p=6141885&viewfull=1#post6141885
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204139&p=6142004&viewfull=1#post6142004
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204139&p=6142201&viewfull=1#post6142201

You couldn't find anything you could share with us about the VP? :lol

[TeyshaBlue]

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204139&p=6141885&viewfull=1#post6141885
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204139&p=6142004&viewfull=1#post6142004
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204139&p=6142201&viewfull=1#post6142201

You couldn't find anything you could share with us about the VP? :lol
Not on alternet or thinkprogress.borg.

[TeyshaBlue]

PussyEater and TB ignoring that corporate death panels already and truly due exist, have forevere. And as we saw in the suit in CA that got a fine of $200M, manangers have been incentivized by quota to deny care and cancel insurance policies to save money.

Shut the fuck up, bot. I never made any claim even close to that.

[ploto]

(Reuters) - Vice President Joe Biden came out on top of Thursday night's vice presidential debate with Republican challenger Paul Ryan, according to a Reuters/Ipsos poll.

The energetic Biden claimed a seven-point victory - 42 percent to 35 percent - among registered voters, with a similar margin among independents. Nearly a quarter of registered voters and about a third of independents were unsure who did a better job during the debate at Centre College in Danville, Kentucky...

Voters said Biden was more qualified to be president, as the vice president moved from 43 to 45 percent on that question over the course of the debate, and Ryan stayed at 35 percent. The Wisconsin congressman's presence on the Romney ticket may also cause trouble for the Republican Party: 27 percent of registered voters said Ryan made them less favorable toward Romney, up from 21 percent before the debate.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/13/us-usa-campaign-debate-poll-idUSBRE89B1AK20121013

[z0sa]

It was the SNL worthy debate we all expected tbh. Biden "won" but I call it a draw simply because neither of these fucks is worth a damn.

[Clipper Nation]

:lmao:lmao:lmao

the polls seem to disagree with you
These polls are confirmation bias for party homers such as yourself, tbh....

[rascal]

Biden can't even spin his lies.

You shouldn't even be in this thread. It asked for your honest non-biased opinion.

[Wild Cobra]

You shouldn't even be in this thread. It asked for your honest non-biased opinion.
Only a biased person thinks Biden doesn't lie his ass off...

[boutons_deux]

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204139&p=6141885&viewfull=1#post6141885
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204139&p=6142004&viewfull=1#post6142004
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204139&p=6142201&viewfull=1#post6142201

You couldn't find anything you could share with us about the VP? :lol

documenting the Ryan LIES is not saying that Joe told the perfect truth. so, GFY.

and I ask again:

link?

[AFBlue]

Ryan. Any substantive gains Biden made on policy were negated (and then some) by his condescension.

[ElNono]

documenting the Ryan LIES is not saying that Joe told the perfect truth. so, GFY.

Looking through your posts, I wouldn't know. So what did Biden lie about? :lol

[LnGrrrR]

Wonder where Yoni went?

[boutons_deux]

Ryan. Any substantive gains Biden made on policy were negated (and then some) by his condescension.

the condescension, the smirking, the laughing at Ryan were fully justified. Ryan is a low-life, lying scumbag of a lying jerk.

He absolutely refused to get past the 20% tax cut (which is a pure electoral play) without ever saying, other than Gecko cutting Big Bird, about how they are going to pay for the $5T in tax cuts. He merits NO RESPECT when he disrespects The American People with his charade of lies and all-out sociopathy.

[Juggity]

Ryan. Any substantive gains Biden made on policy were negated (and then some) by his condescension.

If that's the case, you'll have to discount Romney's first debate performance as well, which was characterized by similar condescension.

[SnakeBoy]

Looking through your posts, I wouldn't know. So what did Biden lie about? :lol

Biden said he voted against the wars...he lied.

[ElNono]

Biden said he voted against the wars...he lied.

Biden lied through the nose. You don't spin the last 4 year's shitfest if you don't lie through the nose. The problem for Ryan is that he's a Congressman and has been as much of the problem and thus he had to lie through the nose too.

But looking at bot's post, you would think only one of them did :lol

[boutons_deux]

Biden lied through the nose. You don't spin the last 4 year's shitfest if you don't lie through the nose. The problem for Ryan is that he's a Congressman and has been as much of the problem and thus he had to lie through the nose too.

But looking at bot's post, you would think only one of them did :lol

List all of Biden's lies and let's line them up against all the LIES Ryan told.

[ElNono]

List all of Biden's lies and let's line them up against all the LIES Ryan told.

lol weighing liar's equivalences...

[boutons_deux]

lol weighing liar's equivalences...

I doubt there will be any equivalence in numbers or in intensity.

But I see at least El Nono has no list of Biden's lies. figures, you're a bunch of fakers.

[TeyshaBlue]

The cut and paste bot without a single, cogent original thought, calling anyone a faker.

Yummy Vitamin I.

[TeyshaBlue]

You are aware, nobody on this board takes you seriously, right bot?

[z0sa]

"well well well HE LIED LESS THOUGH!"

:lmao

[AFBlue]

If that's the case, you'll have to discount Romney's first debate performance as well, which was characterized by similar condescension.

Biden's condescension was on a whole other level. His laughing, smirking, and constant interrupting was unprofessional, disrespectful and childish. I don't think Ryan had a great debate, but Biden's act made it hard to pay attention to anything substantive.

[DMC]

Biden made it apparent that he had absolutely no respect for Ryan, and that he felt above the debate and the questioning. That really has nothing to do with his ability to step in should Obama meet an untimely demise, but it will turn off a lot of voters who aren't already straight ticket voters. Biden is an old crony that does not represent change, not at all. People who were getting paid by taxpayers back before Reagan was in office are not bringing change.

[boutons_deux]

The cut and paste bot without a single, cogent original thought, calling anyone a faker.

Yummy Vitamin I.

So your little comments are all original? you never read anything? you always do original research with the sources? G M A F B

[ElNono]

"well well well HE LIED LESS THOUGH!"

:lmao

:lol

[ElNono]

But I see at least El Nono has no list of Biden's lies. figures, you're a bunch of fakers.

They're widely available if you care to look. You know, outside alternet.borg et all

[boutons_deux]

They're widely available if you care to look. You know, outside alternet.borg et all

Fox? WND? Daily Caller? Breitbart? "Christian" sites? give a hint. Don't be coy, Roy.

[ElNono]

Biden made it apparent that he had absolutely no respect for Ryan, and that he felt above the debate and the questioning. That really has nothing to do with his ability to step in should Obama meet an untimely demise, but it will turn off a lot of voters who aren't already straight ticket voters. Biden is an old crony that does not represent change, not at all. People who were getting paid by taxpayers back before Reagan was in office are not bringing change.

Ryan represents change? :lol His voting record shows he's just another party line guy...

With that I'm not excusing Biden, but let's stop pretending it's not the same shit sandwich in a different package.

I also thought that's what Biden did right: being aggressive calling him out on his bullshit. ie: asking for stimulus money, voting for Medicare D+TARP+wars all on the national credit card.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Biden made it apparent that he had absolutely no respect for Ryan, and that he felt above the debate and the questioning. That really has nothing to do with his ability to step in should Obama meet an untimely demise, but it will turn off a lot of voters who aren't already straight ticket voters. Biden is an old crony that does not represent change, not at all. People who were getting paid by taxpayers back before Reagan was in office are not bringing change.

And you think you have a hand on the pulse of the independent voter? As someone that has not voted for either party in the last two presidential elections, i will say that you do not speak for me.

And :lol at before Reagan. People that have been getting money from government entitlements since Reagan's entering the age of supply side are the status quo. Anything from before that would be change. That was a successful era.

I would do most anything to go back to the governance of Ike, JFK, LBJ, and hell even Nixon over the shit we have today. Nixon may have had his dirty tricks but he ran a tight ship. Since then the old guard southern evangelicals and plantation types have combined forces with the industrial elite to form GOPtron and the Democrats are a bunch of dumbfucks with no cohesive thought or policy between them

[ElNono]

Fox? WND? Daily Caller? Breitbart? "Christian" sites? give a hint. Don't be coy, Roy.

CBS news good enough for you?

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505245_162-57531240/fact-check-slips-in-vice-presidential-debate/

[TeyshaBlue]

So your little comments are all original? you never read anything? you always do original research with the sources? G M A F B

I certainly dont source crap like alternet or thinkprogress. And yeah, my thoughts are largely my own. I understand if you cant relate.

You're a fucking joke.

[TeyshaBlue]

CBS news good enough for you?

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505245_162-57531240/fact-check-slips-in-vice-presidential-debate/

Bitch, meet slap.

Goal post move in 3....2....1....

[boutons_deux]

'Hello 911? There's an old man beating a child on my tv"

-- Bill Maher

http://www.thedemocraticstrategist.org/strategist/2012/10/maher_hello_911_theres_an_old.php

[ploto]

If you think Biden was a laughing jackass, then Ryan was a smirking douchebag.

[DMC]

And you think you have a hand on the pulse of the independent voter?

The people who find his attitude distasteful are most likely not in his pocket already. Do you have a problem with that statement?

As someone that has not voted for either party in the last two presidential elections, i will say that you do not speak for me.

Did you notice I did not make an all encompassing statement when I said "a lot of voters who aren't already straight ticket voters"? Did you see me say "all independents" or "Fuzzy"? I don't recall saying it.


And :lol at before Reagan. People that have been getting money from government entitlements since Reagan's entering the age of supply side are the status quo. Anything from before that would be change. That was a successful era.

It's not change to have an elderly career politician in the WH. Clinton, the Bush family.. hell that's 20 years right there. New boss, same as the old boss, as Dems have discovered about Obama.


I would do most anything to go back to the governance of Ike, JFK, LBJ, and hell even Nixon over the shit we have today. Nixon may have had his dirty tricks but he ran a tight ship. Since then the old guard southern evangelicals and plantation types have combined forces with the industrial elite to form GOPtron and the Democrats are a bunch of dumbfucks with no cohesive thought or policy between them
We agree on something, although I am too young to remember much about Nixon or anything about Kennedy. I was referring to people who are still in office, who have been in DC in some capacity for 30 years. The McCain types. They know the ropes and have more skeletons and dirty secrets on people than anyone else, and they stick around and lust after power. There's no real change with any of these people because they have too many friends that would lose a few dollars if change occurred.

[possessed]

If that's the case, you'll have to discount Romney's first debate performance as well, which was characterized by similar condescension.

Who believes this? You and who else?

[DMC]

Ryan represents change? :lol His voting record shows he's just another party line guy...

Not at all. He just wants in on the feast. Don't bifurcate my response.
There will be no change as long as Americans are fat and our credit cards still work at the mall.


With that I'm not excusing Biden, but let's stop pretending it's not the same shit sandwich in a different package.

It is, but Obama was relatively unknown, never really did anything so his promise of change was more believable to some than Joe Biden promising change. If Obama was serious, he should have a running mate who's not a main stream career politician. There are a group of about 30 people who can even possibly get a nomination. Of those, only about 8 would ever get the party nomination including both major parties. That's not much "change" to choose from, it's just the vultures waiting their turns at the cookie jar.


I also thought that's what Biden did right: being aggressive calling him out on his bullshit. ie: asking for stimulus money, voting for Medicare D+TARP+wars all on the national credit card.

If you're right you should be able to present facts not just call someone "full of malarkey". It doesn't take much to show Ryan is full of shit, but Biden let him off the hook on too many things. I wish they would stop trying for the next "we need some nasty" type of phrase and just be forthright but then it wouldn't be politics any longer.

[Juggity]

Who believes this? You and who else?

Pretty much anyone who watched w/ some degree of attention.

The reason Joe chose to enact the strategy in the VP debate is because it was the logical counter Romney's performance in the previous debate. Level the playing field, etc.

[boutons_deux]

Pretty much anyone who watched w/ some degree of attention.

The reason Joe chose to enact the strategy in the VP debate is because it was the logical counter Romney's performance in the previous debate. Level the playing field, etc.

Sure, Joe wasn't operating in a vacuum. He also knew that Ryan and Gecko are full-of-shit liars and hypocrites. Joe exposed Ryan's bullshit before the nation. My guess Barry will do the same to Romney. These Kings of Lies and Bullshit will be shown, again, to have no clothes.

[AFBlue]

If you think Biden was a laughing jackass, then Ryan was a smirking douchebag.

Ryan may have the personality of a wet napkin and be too rehearsed with his talking points, but I don't think I saw a single smirk from him. And Buden wasn't just a laughing jackass...he was smirking, scoffing, mouthing, interrupting, and so on. Seriously, calling his debate performance "over the top" would be selling it short.

[Jacob1983]

Biden was just butt hurt that he has been a part of Bush's 3rd term.

[LnGrrrR]

Do you know? I don't know why'd you believe Ryan's claim over Biden's. Ryan made the claim, does he have any proof? As you said above, given the state of the intelligence community, you don't think ANYONE has a clear picture of exactly where Iran is in the process of acquiring nuclear weapons. Yet, Ryan specified they have enough material to build 5 bombs, which seems rather "clear". How do you reconcile these two thoughts?

Hey, I wonder why Yoni hasn't responded to this yet.

[djohn2oo8]

Ryan may have the personality of a wet napkin and be too rehearsed with his talking points, but I don't think I saw a single smirk from him. And Buden wasn't just a laughing jackass...he was smirking, scoffing, mouthing, interrupting, and so on. Seriously, calling his debate performance "over the top" would be selling it short.

lol Biden called out Eddy Munster over his lies. He smiling, laughing is what controlled the debate.