No Jordan -- Who is the GOAT?

[Leetonidas]

Interesting topic I saw earlier, just curious since most people would say Jordan is the GOAT, who is the GOAT if Michael never existed?

[lefty]

Isiah Thomas or Hakeem



There, I said it

[da_suns_fan]

Bird or Magic.

Kobe and Lebron would be close too.

[FkLA]

http://sportsclothingblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/464CC99C7576D954DBFE1EADA297.jpg

[FkLA]

Bird or Magic.

Kobe and Lebron would be close too.

:lmao :lmao :lmao

[Leetonidas]

If Kobe didn't have MJ to model his game after, who would he have tried to emulate

[lefty]

If Kobe didn't have MJ to model his game after, who would he have tried to emulate?

Himself

[purplengold]

Kobe wanna be like magic before nba but he change ta Jordan. without Jordan it possible he aspire ta be a 6'7 pg

no Jordan then the goat magic, bird or kareem

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Chamberlain is GOAT with or without Jordan. People generally lack perspective. In 20 more years it will be Lebron. That's just how people roll.

[Mark in Austin]

A case could be made for Magic, Kareem, Bird or Russell - would probably vote for Russell.

[KL2]

A minimum of 3 final mvps is required to at least be in the discussion.

[purplengold]

A minimum of 3 final mvps is required to at least be in the discussion.

Kareem got 2 n he betta than duncan

[baseline bum]

Gotta be Magic.

[baseline bum]

Chamberlain is GOAT with or without Jordan. People generally lack perspective. In 20 more years it will be Lebron. That's just how people roll.

LOL stat-padder who stopped playing defense after picking up a fourth foul so that he could say he never fouled out in his career.

[Leetonidas]

Chamberlain is GOAT with or without Jordan. People generally lack perspective. In 20 more years it will be Lebron. That's just how people roll.

Yeah, no, dominating against inferior competition doesn't make you the goat

[purplengold]

Chamberlain is GOAT with or without Jordan. People generally lack perspective. In 20 more years it will be Lebron. That's just how people roll.

game evolve n players evolve. Wilt be ahead of his time but Shaq wouldda gotten 80pts a game

[jdiggy0424]

Russell or jabbar. Leaning towards Russell tho.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

LOL stat-padder who stopped playing defense after picking up a fourth foul so that he could say he never fouled out in his career.

Yeah he sure padded those stats when he was in LA. :rolleyes

He was the most dominant basketball player of any era. You can him and haw around that if you like but there was never a more dominant individual to play the game

He and Greer just weren't better than Russell, Havlicek and the Jones brothers all by themselves even if they took them to 7 games most years. Once Walker came into his own they beat them. It's a team sport.

[Clipper Nation]

Magic, tbh...

[Leetonidas]

Gonna throw a question out there -- If Magic and Lew Alcindor are considerations for the GOAT, why do they not get points off for playing together, like Kobe does for Shaq?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Yeah, no, dominating against inferior competition doesn't make you the goat

Inferior competition? He played against the Celtics who were the best team of all time. This was before the ABA who poached a TON of talent during their run, the merger and expansions that diluted the talent. In 1967, there were only 10 teams in the league.

if you look at the annual standings you didn't see a whole lot of teams winning less that 30% of their games in any year. Nowadays there are 5 or 6 every year. Inferior competition? I've got your inferior competition right HERE (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/depth/_/name/cha/charlotte-bobcats)

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Gonna throw a question out there -- If Magic and Lew Alcindor are considerations for the GOAT, why do they not get points off for playing together, like Kobe does for Shaq?

Alcindor couldn't do much without Robertson or Magic. The period between them was a bunch of missed playoffs and first round exits. This also was the ABA run so he wasn't having to play agains Gilmore, Malone, Issel, Thompson Hawkins, Daniels, Dampier, Cunningham, Barry, Gervin or Erving. It's reminiscent of Kobe between Shaq and Gasol but went on for nearly a decade.

[Leetonidas]

Bro, I understand the argument, but the game has changed so much since then. If you put someone like Elden Campbell out there against 50s/60s competition, while he may not have beaten Russel's Celtics, he would be considered a legendary big man. I know palming was called a lot more back then but a lot of these guys couldn't even dribble (Bob Pettit?) and they barely played defense. Wilt was ahead of his time and while he was an exceptional athlete who would still be a top C in todays game, he is not the GOAT and should be docked points for playing against people who weren't really his peers, aside from Russel who was terrible on the offensive side of the ball. The game has evolved to such an insane point, players nowadays are so much more conditioned and have much more to work with than back then. Not saying Wilt or Oscar weren't great players but they are not on the level of Jordan

[JoeTait75]

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/001/293/778/KareemAbdulJabbar3_display_image.jpg?1315848080

[LkrFan]

Magic, tbh...
Closet Laker fan, tbh.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Bro, I understand the argument, but the game has changed so much since then. If you put someone like Elden Campbell out there against 50s/60s competition, while he may not have beaten Russel's Celtics, he would be considered a legendary big man. I know palming was called a lot more back then but a lot of these guys couldn't even dribble (Bob Pettit?) and they barely played defense. Wilt was ahead of his time and while he was an exceptional athlete who would still be a top C in todays game, he is not the GOAT and should be docked points for playing against people who weren't really his peers, aside from Russel who was terrible on the offensive side of the ball. The game has evolved to such an insane point, players nowadays are so much more conditioned and have much more to work with than back then. Not saying Wilt or Oscar weren't great players but they are not on the level of Jordan

I call bullshit. There was no three point shot to spread the floor and the same thing would have happened to Campbell as happened to Chamberlain. He would have gotten hammered.

Oh and Bill Russell, Jerry Lucas, Gus Johnson, Willis Reed, Lou Alcindor, Nate Thurmond, Walt Bellamy, Wes Unseld, Elvin Hayes, and Dave Cowens say hell. People like to act like the NBA was Adolph Rupp and the Aryan Allstars when he played and in the NBA today every team has a talented 6'10" big but thats just bullshit.

And don't talk to me about conditioned. Chamberalin averaged 46 MPG for his career.

[Clipper Nation]

Closet Laker fan, tbh.

Closet Spurfan, tbh...

[Leetonidas]

So in a 20 year span, you can give me like 10-12 players who would still be good today?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

So in a 20 year span, you can give me like 10-12 players who would still be good today?

More like 10 years and they would be better than good. You act like the league is jsut chock full of talented bigs. You really think that prime Andrew Bynum or Chris Kaman would beat prime Wes Unseld or Moses Malone? You forget what the NBA has to offer year in and year out over the last decade or more.

[irishock]

Wilt. The only reason he's been written off the GOAT list is because of Jordan, ask any fan pre-Jordan era.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Shaq would've gotten called for charges for his post moves. Watch some film of Chamberlain and compare and contrast with the Shaq method of squat take two power dribbles into the guy to knock him out of the way so you have a clear path. There were no defensive three second rules and no three point shots. You packed the lane.

Shaq could not hold a candle to Wilt athletically. He won track and field events at KU. He had power and agility. Not to say that O'Neal was a complete sloth but he was hardly a gazelle.

[purplengold]

Shaq would've gotten called for charges for his post moves. Watch some film of Chamberlain and compare and contrast with the Shaq method of squat take two power dribbles into the guy to knock him out of the way so you have a clear path. There were no defensive three second rules and no three point shots. You packed the lane.

Shaq could not hold a candle to Wilt athletically. He won track and field events at KU. He had power and agility. Not to say that O'Neal was a complete sloth but he was hardly a gazelle.

ya neva seen shaq when he was under 300? he had handles n speed, da reason he was good in the first place was dat Shaq was like 280 n move like a sf.

[Raven]

Wilt Chamberlain... A case could also be made for Bill Russell, Oscar Robertson and Larry Bird.. Actually, Wilt should be above Jordan too, but the fact that the rings aren't there kills him too much..

[Raven]

LOL stat-padder who stopped playing defense after picking up a fourth foul so that he could say he never fouled out in his career.

different times tbh...

[purplengold]

Wilt Chamberlain... A case could also be made for Bill Russell, Oscar Robertson and Larry Bird.. Actually, Wilt should be above Jordan too, but the fact that the rings aren't there kills him too much..

he got as many as Hakeem but mo people gon say Hakeem betta

[ElNono]

Len Bias, tbh

[purplengold]

Len Bias, tbh

Tryna say Jordan sell him the shit?

[mavs>spurs]

kareem, hakeem, or magic probably

[scanry]

kareem, hakeem, or magic probably

Don't think so. Hakeem would'nt have dominated his era even without Jordan. We would probably see his 6 rings go to Magic/Isaiah, Ewing/Drexler, Barkley, Payton and Malone.

[mavs>spurs]

I don't really rate individuals by team accomplishments anyway. Hakeem the individual player is a lock for top 5 all time in the modern era..it's my personal opinion that no one has ever impacted the game on both ends the way he did.

[Ashy Larry]

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/001/293/778/KareemAbdulJabbar3_display_image.jpg?1315848080


even with Mike, I still have no problem putting Kareem at number one. I often flip flop between the two and people always forget how dominant Kareem was while with the Bucks. His resume (both college and pro) can go up against anyone's ......

[baseline bum]

Don't think so. Hakeem would'nt have dominated his era even without Jordan. We would probably see his 6 rings go to Magic/Isaiah, Ewing/Drexler, Barkley, Payton and Malone.

You're forgetting how good that Pacers team was in 98.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

even with Mike, I still have no problem putting Kareem at number one. I often flip flop between the two and people always forget how dominant Kareem was while with the Bucks. His resume (both college and pro) can go up against anyone's ......

Dominant? Thurmond and Wilt outplayed him in the 1972 playoffs where Alcindor played far below his stat padded season averages. Then you take the next decade of mediocrity. Kareem is the MOAT, Most Overrated of All Time.

Shaq Hakeem and Wilt are all superior players. Kareem just played a really long time.

[Latarian Milton]

No jordan and the all-time GOAT still has the initials of MJ imho

[purplengold]

Dominant? Thurmond and Wilt outplayed him in the 1972 playoffs where Alcindor played far below his stat padded season averages. Then you take the next decade of mediocrity. Kareem is the MOAT, Most Overrated of All Time.

Shaq Hakeem and Wilt are all superior players. Kareem just played a really long time.

ya seem ta really hate Kareem cuz you like usin his old name before he became a muslim. Do ya hate Islam or just Kareem?

[resistanze]

even with Mike, I still have no problem putting Kareem at number one. I often flip flop between the two and people always forget how dominant Kareem was while with the Bucks. His resume (both college and pro) can go up against anyone's ......

+1

[scanry]

even with Mike, I still have no problem putting Kareem at number one. I often flip flop between the two and people always forget how dominant Kareem was while with the Bucks. His resume (both college and pro) can go up against anyone's ......

People underestimate Jordan's college career. The moment Dean Smith got off his back, he dominated like no other (Olympics 1984).

[ezau]

Bird was already the consensus GOAT before MJ.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

ya seem ta really hate Kareem cuz you like usin his old name before he became a muslim. Do ya hate Islam or just Kareem?

That was his name in 1972. Notice how I used both names as both names are part of the man.

[purplengold]

That was his name in 1972. Notice how I used both names as both names are part of the man.

he change his name when he become Muslim. it bein disrespectful ta him n his religion, so ya must hate one or the other

[Ashy Larry]

Dominant? Thurmond and Wilt outplayed him in the 1972 playoffs where Alcindor played far below his stat padded season averages. Then you take the next decade of mediocrity. Kareem is the MOAT, Most Overrated of All Time.

Shaq Hakeem and Wilt are all superior players. Kareem just played a really long time.


lol @ MOAT ...... that quote hasta go down as one of the dumbest we've ever had on this forum. Dude was constantly up for the MVP vote every year and back then, his peers, the players voted who was the best player in the NBA, not the media. And you pick a year, 1972, to try to prove a point ????

All he did in 1972 was go 28 and 13 in the playoffs and 34 and 16 in the regular season. How come you didn't choose 1971 to make your point? He basically saved the Big O from going down as the greatest player to never win a ring. And as far as playing a long time, those extra years in which he probably should have retired, brought his averages down. And even at 39, 40 and 41, dude still avg'd 17, 14 and 10. If Duncan had those numbers, you'd probably wet the front of ya damn pants trying to proved Jim was the GOAT.

[Kai]

No Jordan -- no one gives a fuck about the NBA.

[Pelicans78]

Kareem, Magic in my opinion.

[Arcadian]

No Jordan? Fuck that - I'll take Wilt and Kareem as the GOAT over Jordan.

[mercos]

Kareem. I think there is an argument to be made that he is above Jordan. His stats are superior, and he won just as many titles. Kareem also played a much more important position on the court at Center. Jordan was great, but I think his career has been inflated due to Nike marketing. He is a contender for GOAT, but I don't think its a foregone conclusion as most do.

[Josepatches_]

No Jordan -- no one gives a fuck about the NBA.

:toast

[Rummpd]

Kareem Abdul Jabbar, totally agree with other posters, is the GOAT with or without Jordan - he made more of a difference, more of an unstoppable shot etc. Starting any team any time take Kareem over Jordan. Jordan was as much of a product of the media, NIKE and the idea that he alone produced 6 rings but he did not win a thing without Pippen and Jackson + changed rules and nebulous over the top "Jordan Rules" that allowed BS like his push off game winner against the Jazz.

[MattBonnerExperience]

Bill Russell

[phxspurfan]

1. Duncan
1a. Russell

[stretch]

Chamberlain is GOAT with or without Jordan. People generally lack perspective.


hmm... he was 4-5 inches taller than the average center in the league, and outweighed most of them by well over 50 lbs. Put up great numbers, but was a lousy winner.

and you say that people who say Jordan > Wilt lacks perspective?

rofl

[stretch]

Kareem. I think there is an argument to be made that he is above Jordan. His stats are superior, and he won just as many titles. Kareem also played a much more important position on the court at Center. Jordan was great, but I think his career has been inflated due to Nike marketing. He is a contender for GOAT, but I don't think its a foregone conclusion as most do.

He is the only player that any minute argument can be made for, even though I think it's still MJ. If anything, your argument about the positions they played gives more props to MJ, because until him, it was widely believe that you cannot win a championship when building around a shooting guard. He completely changed that and dominated the game in a way that no player had ever done before (the closest being Oscar)


Kareem Abdul Jabbar, totally agree with other posters, is the GOAT with or without Jordan - he made more of a difference, more of an unstoppable shot etc. Starting any team any time take Kareem over Jordan. Jordan was as much of a product of the media, NIKE and the idea that he alone produced 6 rings but he did not win a thing without Pippen and Jackson + changed rules and nebulous over the top "Jordan Rules" that allowed BS like his push off game winner against the Jazz.

Every opinion you post on Spurstalk contains about the equivalent amount of knowledge as a fossilized pile of T-Rex shit. Quit trying to act like you are educated, when you are in fact, a dumbass of unequivocal proportions.

[irishock]

Kobe Bryant.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

hmm... he was 4-5 inches taller than the average center in the league, and outweighed most of them by well over 50 lbs. Put up great numbers, but was a lousy winner.

and you say that people who say Jordan > Wilt lacks perspective?

rofl

He took the Celtics dynasty to 7 games year after year and finally overcame the hump when Greer developed. He won a lot, he just could not beat the greatest dynasty at it's peak. We are talking Russell, Cousey, Havlicek and the Jones brothers.

Jordan always had Pippen and Grant and consistently had a strong supporting cast with guys like Kucok, Harper, Armstrong, Cartwright, Rodman and others.

I think you may want to reevaluate the notion that I lack perspective. I also think you should revisit the NBA in the 1960s. He played in a division with Nate Thurmond, Bill Russell, and Jerry Lucas and there were only 10 teams. It may be fun to act like the NBA was all 6'8" smurfs but that just doesn't bear out. As his career went along he had to contend with Alcindor/Jabbar, Unseld, Malone and others. He put up all those records against those guys. His rebounding record of 50+ for example was against Bill Russell.

Chamberlain was the most dominant player to step onto a basketball court. Prime Wilt of around 1967 would dominate in any era including the one we are in now.