Stern is gone...

[benefactor]

...as of February 2014. Figured I'd start a thread up here for those that don't venture downstairs.

[phxspurfan]

Misleading. I thought gone today and got disappointed.

[benefactor]

At least he's going...not that Silver will be much of an upgrade.

[whitemamba]

Finally?

[polandprzem]

It can get worse

[hooperflash]

They will have statues of David Stern mounted at the entrances of the Staples Center & American Airlines Arena on Feb. 2 , 2014 .

[dunkman]

. . . the Lakers are done!

[Spurs Brazil]

Stern to retire in 2014; Silver likely to replace him

Posted Oct 25, 2012 1:54 PM - Updated Oct 25, 2012 2:27 PM
NEW YORK (AP) -- NBA Commissioner David Stern will retire on Feb. 1, 2014, 30 years after he took charge of the league. He will be replaced by Deputy Commissioner Adam Silver.
The announcement came at an NBA Board of Governors meeting Thursday.
Stern told owners during their two days of meetings of his plans, and the board unanimously decided Silver would be his successor.
Stern, who turned 70 last month, became commissioner on Feb. 1, 1984. He has been the NBA's longest-serving commissioner, establishing the league's brand around the world, presiding over team expansion and overseeing the establishment of the WNBA.
"You'll be remembered as the best of all-time," Silver told Stern, sitting to his left on a podium during a news conference.
Stern said he decided on his plans about six months ago, having guided the league through a lockout that ended nearly a year ago. He said the league is in great shape and he is confident in Silver, who has been the league's No. 2 since 2006.
"I don't know what else to say other than to recite what I told the owners yesterday in executive session," Stern said. "I told them that it's been a great run, it will continue for another 15 months, that the league is in, I think, terrific condition."


http://www.nba.com/2012/news/10/25/david-stern-retirement.ap/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt3a

[benefactor]

"You'll be remembered as the best of all-time," Silver told Stern, sitting to his left on a podium during a news conference.

crofl

[spurs_2108]

Never been a big fan of Adam Silver. Although he gets more claps at the draft than David!

[Kidd K]

My initial thought: Holy Shit! About fuckin time! YES! YES! YES!

Then after it sets in. . .all I can think is: Stern's personaly groomed-for-the-position, right hand yes man is replacing him. Is this going to just be the same shit in a different wrapper? Silver does seem like less of a pompous douchebag than Stern at least, so that's the only hope for a fair NBA future.

[boutons_deux]

Holt elected chairman of NBA Board of Governors (http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/2012/10/25/holt-elected-chairman-of-nba-board-of-governors/)
http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/2012/10/25/holt-elected-chairman-of-nba-board-of-governors/

[DPG21920]

I don't like the newer version of Stern so much, but overall I thought he did a very good job. Obviously, having multiple lockouts under his watch is a bit of a stain to his legacy, but I can't fault him too much seeing as the owners drive more than their fair share of that and he speaks on behalf of the owners.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Spurs fans are the most ungrateful, self-righteous bunch on the planet (as well as the fattest, but I digress). SA won 4 titles under his watch (most notably, the 2007 gift). Before Stern, the Spurs were nothing. During his tenure, however, they've now won the 4th most titles in NBA history.

[Juggity]

I've never had a huge problem with Stern.

He likes to make himself look Machiavellian, which is funny, but his influence in the league is probably way overstated (fixing games, etc, is preposterous).

[coyotes_geek]

Best commissioner in the history of north american professional sports, despite what the fans feel about him.

[lefty]

My initial thought: Holy Shit! About fuckin time! YES! YES! YES!

Then after it sets in. . .all I can think is: Stern's personaly groomed-for-the-position, right hand yes man is replacing him. Is this going to just be the same shit in a different wrapper? Silver does seem like less of a pompous douchebag than Stern at least, so that's the only hope for a fair NBA future.
exactly


SOn of stern :lol

[Raven]

i would be super happy if i wasn't so afraid of who can come next..

[lefty]

i would be super happy if i wasn't so afraid of who can come next..

+1


But at least we won't see Stern'S arrogant nose anymore

[Seventyniner]

"You'll be remembered as the best of all-time," Silver told Stern, sitting to his left on a podium during a news conference.

crofl

Just kissin' ass. Stern could still name a different successor between now and then.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I don't like the newer version of Stern so much, but overall I thought he did a very good job. Obviously, having multiple lockouts under his watch is a bit of a stain to his legacy, but I can't fault him too much seeing as the owners drive more than their fair share of that and he speaks on behalf of the owners.

What do you think Stern is supposed to do? His inability to steer the ownership and allowing multiple work stoppages is incompetence at the job. Maybe you like Yorkies or something but I don't want a lapdog running the show.

His marketing campaign of promoting individual players over teams was there from the very beginning with the Magic v Bird tripe and helped to create the environment. He lacks leadership and vision.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I've never had a huge problem with Stern.

He likes to make himself look Machiavellian, which is funny, but his influence in the league is probably way overstated (fixing games, etc, is preposterous).

Where do you think the officiating policy of 'star treatment' comes from? Or do you deny that 'stars' of teams get favorable calls?

[DPG21920]

What do you think Stern is supposed to do? His inability to steer the ownership and allowing multiple work stoppages is incompetence at the job. Maybe you like Yorkies or something but I don't want a lapdog running the show.

His marketing campaign of promoting individual players over teams was there from the very beginning with the Magic v Bird tripe and helped to create the environment. He lacks leadership and vision.

I disagree and I am a fan of Stern's overall time with the NBA.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I disagree and I am a fan of Stern's overall time with the NBA.

What did you like and how do you attribute it to an action of Stern?

[DPG21920]

The growth, globalization and overall quality and popularity of the sport.

[SpursNextRomanEmpire]

Best commissioner in the history of north american professional sports, despite what the fans feel about him.

Agreed. I don't understand the hate for him.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The growth, globalization and overall quality and popularity of the sport.

So you like that people in China and South America like NBA basketball and they make the owners money. Great.

What specifically about the quality of the sport? I hope you are not talking about from a technical standpoint. The NBA no longer has it's developmen.... err the NCAA there to train their new players. As such the incoming rookies have lesser skillsets as opposed to those from before. You just like the promotional stuff? You think that he has kept the integrity of the game high?

I take it you didn't like the physical basketball from before?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Best commissioner in the history of north american professional sports, despite what the fans feel about him.

No sense of history I see.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_Rozelle

Read and learn.

[Obstructed_View]

The Pete Rozelle of basketball. He'll never get the credit he deserves for what he contributed.

[racm]

He's better than the clowns in the other league, but that's saying just how venal pro sports have become in America tbh

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The Pete Rozelle of basketball. He'll never get the credit he deserves for what he contributed.

Credit for what? Making certain owners and players rich?

Rozelle was great for the vision he showed in negotiating and getting not only with ownership but also the feds the ability to do TV rights such as the NFL does. He made it such that NFL owners can both make money and be competitive as any other team because of that. And its not like the Modell's Mara's and Shramms of the world were the most giving souls on the planet. Rozelle brokered that.

Stern has perpetuated a rich poor gap in the NBA. Small market teams like the Spurs have to make a choice: profit or compete. I love Holt because he chooses the latter but what about teams like the Clippers that have chosen the former for the past 30 years? You have teams failing and/or moving cities because of this climate.

And personally I find the integrity of the game to be shit. Stern promotes stars. The 400 lbs gorilla in the room is the leagues policy of 'star treatment' for the refs. It's how you tell whether or not a player has come into his own in the league as soon as the refs start giving them favorable calls. You see some stars take advantage of it to a new dimension. Guys like Wade, Paul and our very own Ginobilli come to mind. You don't see this shit in other leagues or at least not institutionalized like it is in the NBA.

What gets me is how people accept star treatment as a given and then scoff at the notion that they would fix other things. We've all seen the bullshit in the Laker's favors but other teams have a legitimate gripe about us. Call me tin hat man but when refs swallow their whistles during our championship runs time and again it has to make you wonder if it had anything to do with their promotion of international stars and guys like Manu and Parker on the team. Yay Sean Marks!

I have no proof and that is straight conjecture obvious but that and a whole lot of other shit along with NBA officiating stinks like a tanning pit. That's Stern's legacy.

Oh but he made Buss, Reinsdorf lots of money and hyped Yao Ming woo fucking hoo.

[Vic Petro]

Two out of two times, Stern emerged from his secret room and announced the Spurs had the first pick.

[Juggity]

Where do you think the officiating policy of 'star treatment' comes from? Or do you deny that 'stars' of teams get favorable calls?

Honestly, the reason stars are stars is because they are good at drawing fouls and selling them.

[Sean Cagney]

Spurs fans are the most ungrateful, self-righteous bunch on the planet (as well as the fattest, but I digress). SA won 4 titles under his watch (most notably, the 2007 gift). Before Stern, the Spurs were nothing. During his tenure, however, they've now won the 4th most titles in NBA history.

2007 GIFT? What suspending guys who actually do run onto the floor? I mean thats a rule right? Only gift we got was them being so dumb to do it, even then the Spurs win that series IMO. LA got that .4 bullish, thank him for that F IN GIFT! Now that was robbery ;)

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Honestly, the reason stars are stars is because they are good at drawing fouls and selling them.

So you honestly think that Lebron James, Kobe Bryant, and Dwayne Wade are not given extra steps, allowed to carry the ball or given the baby treatment when they drive the lane? You don't think that if you so much as breathe on Kevin Durant he will get a call but you can beat the hell out of Ron Artest and they swallow the whistle? You ever watch Allen Iverson play when he was with the 76ers? It's so prevalent that HoF coaches like Larry Brown talk about it like it's a given. You been living under a rock or something?

You don't see Darelle Revis allowed to grab receivers going downfield. You don't see Justin Verlander get extra room on the outside corner. No, it's basketball that you see that shit in and you see it every game.

What's worse is that they baby the hell out of perimeter players and don't call jack on the inside but for 3 seconds. You can hammer the hell out of Bynum, Howard and Duncan and nary a call. It's so contrived as to be obvious.

[coyotes_geek]

No sense of history I see.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_Rozelle

Read and learn.

Respectfully disagree. Rozelle's a close #2, but Stern did more for the NBA than Rozelle did for the NFL.

[coyotes_geek]

Two out of two times, Stern emerged from his secret room and announced the Spurs had the first pick.

Two out of three TBH...

[Creation88]

good riddance to that ego-maniacal, douchebag

[Vito Corleone]

I wish one thing moving forward from the new commish

Leave the game alone. It's a great game just like it is, you don't need to keep changing the rules and you don't need to manipulate the refs to get a good matchup.

Let the refs have just a few years of keeping the same set of rules so they can get good at calling a game.

[xmas1997]

The NFL Comish has to be the worst in all of sports. I'll never forgive him for keeping an NFL team out of S.A., him and Jerry Jones.

[DPG21920]

good riddance to that ego-maniacal, douchebag

I agree he has a ridiculous ego and he is definitely a d-bag but overall he got more good things than bad done is my POV. He's gotten progressively worse though - so I am not upset at him leaving now.

[-21-]

Hey, in 30 years he didn't do too bad. The league and the sport has grown so much and some credit must be given to him. Congratulations to him stepping down... Hopefully Silver can't be any worse.

[Obstructed_View]

Small market teams like the Spurs have to make a choice: profit or compete. I love Holt because he chooses the latter but what about teams like the Clippers that have chosen the former for the past 30 years?

Not really going to debate with someone that labels the Clippers a "small market team", but there's plenty to :lol about in your post. Star treatment comes from the fact that Dr. J, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan turned the NBA from a league broadcasting the finals on tape delay at midnight to a multi-billion-dollar global powerhouse. A fan of the two-time-lottery-champion, four :lobt: Spurs whining about how small market teams are treated is equally laughable.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Not really going to debate with someone that labels the Clippers a "small market team", but there's plenty to :lol about in your post. Star treatment comes from the fact that Dr. J, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan turned the NBA from a league broadcasting the finals on tape delay at midnight to a multi-billion-dollar global powerhouse. A fan of the two-time-lottery-champion, four :lobt: Spurs whining about how small market teams are treated is equally laughable.

Who gives a flying fuck why it came into being. It's nice ot see that you do not disagree that the rules are different for Kobe Bryant than they are for Danny Green and that is the point. The NBA will fix games so certain outcomes are preferred. In this case its so that their 'stars' see greater success. Your causation does nothing to mitigate my point.

It's called marketshare and despite LA being a large media market its already well saturated. You have the Lakers and Kings both of which are highly successful and have seasons that run concurrently. They also have to to compete with the Dodgers in the Spring and Summer. They are clearly the low man on the totem pole.

The Lakers have a $3b TV contract. Do the Clippers?

No they do not and as such there lesser revenue stream put them in a position where they had to make a choice: profit or compete. You remember the Elgin Baylor GMed years where the constant refrain was how they had terrible faciliites that did not put there players in position to succeed? You remember the constant stream of lottery picks that they did not pay to retain? Only under new management have they changed.

As for the Spurs, I guess you missed the part where I said you made a choice: compete or profit. Was your head up your ass when the Scola trade went down and the financial considerations behind it were made apparent? I recall a whole litany of complaints around that time of Holt being cheap.

Did it escape your notice the stand that Holt took with the other small market teams during the lockout? They went on their own to make those statements about having to look after their interests while Stern and Silver were playing to their other interests. The team has been treading water financially.

The Thunder just traded Harden cause ownership wouldn't pay him ffs. Your head has to be up your ass.

[Obstructed_View]

I think it's a star-driven league. I didn't say the refs give them special treatment, nor would I suggest that the NBA has actively worked to make that happen. As a Spurs fan, you should be ashamed of yourself for even suggesting it, as the greatest player at his position is in town, and his free throw attempts are down to the same levels as when he was a rookie. Kobe Bryant gets calls when he's aggressively going inside instead of jacking up thirty footers, because he's one of the best players of all time. If you ask Kobe, he'll tell you he gets about half the calls he deserves. If you think that Danny Green is as good at drawing fouls or going inside as Kobe Bryant, then I really have no idea how to help you. I don't even blindly hate Kobe Bryant that much.

If you were to make a case that the refs don't call fouls on star players because the league wants to keep them in the game, I might be inclined to agree, though it's not like players foul out terribly often. Usually good players get to the line because, well, they're good players. When the NBA has someone like Tim Tebow who's a star without being any good and he leads the league in FTA, we'll revisit this conversation.

The Thunder traded Harden because he wanted a max contract, and they've already got two max players, one of whom is arguably already at Harden's position. There are no rules that keep OKC from paying him, they just weren't going to give him that kind of money. Instead, they traded him for way more than he was worth to a team that is going to overpay him and regret it. Sounds like a pretty good system to me.

I love that it's David Stern's fault that Donald Sterling is a piece of shit owner, though. Stick with that one. The Lakers work their ass off to get good players, and their fans demand that they do. They earned their market share, and therefore their TV contract, by winning one out of every four championships since the NBA began.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

:lol

It's clear what i meant when I said star treatment. You said:


Star treatment comes from the fact that Dr. J, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan turned the NBA from a league broadcasting the finals on tape delay at midnight to a multi-billion-dollar global

Dissemble more.

Paul, Nash, Bryant, Durant, Wade, James etc are allowed to hack, carry, take extra steps etc and calls are made against players who try to play physical with them moreso. Its pretty blatant just like it was back in the day for MJ, Magic, Bird, etc. You like your head up your ass though so if you cannot see it then i am not surprised.

And you're right, they traded Harden because they did not want to pay him. At least four teams would have offered him the max the moment he hit FA. Worth is determined by the market and not by random fans opinion. He's the third best SG in the league and they got him for two chuckers and a lottery pick. It's nice to know where your acumen sits in terms of NBA talent though.

And if anything is shameful then it's this comment:


The Lakers work their ass off to get good players,

i suppose it takes some doing to get Orlando to trade Howard for Afflalao or Vancouver prospects for Gasol or the 13th pick for Vlade Divac. Real tough work there.

Look at their roster. Other than Kobe who have they developed? They use their financial position to sign players or to leverage trades and therein lies their competitive advantage. i don't deny that Riley built a team back in the 1980s but the Lakers have been exploiting their monetary advantage ever since. It's not 'hard work' not anymore it's not.

Compare that with OKC who did the work scouting and player development but either choose to lose their players to larger markets or ask their ownership to take a loss.

At least you gave up the argument about the Clippers being a large market team. The Lakers had been entrenched since before 1960 and the Clippers didn't move from San Diego until 1981. While the Clippers were bad the Dodgers and Showtime dominated the media time and later the Kings. Remember the Gretzky trade? Meanwhile the Clippers got to play farm team for NBA clubs.

The thing that sticks out to me more than anything though --and something you just chose to ignore-- was while Stern was leaving lockout negotiations, Holt, speaking for smallmarket teams, spoke publicly that small market interests were not being considered and they felt they had to make a stand.

[Obstructed_View]

Paul, Nash, Bryant, Durant, Wade, James etc are allowed to hack, carry, take extra steps etc and calls are made against players who try to play physical with them moreso. Its pretty blatant just like it was back in the day for MJ, Magic, Bird, etc. You like your head up your ass though so if you cannot see it then i am not surprised.
Yes, that's why Bruce Bowen fouled out so often and Steve Nash had no bruises on his ankles. Again, you're not worthy of calling yourself a Spurs fan for the retarded shit you say.


And you're right, they traded Harden because they did not want to pay him. At least four teams would have offered him the max the moment he hit FA. Worth is determined by the market and not by random fans opinion. He's the third best SG in the league and they got him for two chuckers and a lottery pick. It's nice to know where your acumen sits in terms of NBA talent though.
Joe Johnson and Brook Lopez got max contracts too. Doesn't make them max players. Worth is determined by what you get for trading his ass away. Even with per 36 numbers Harden isn't the third best SG in the league. Unless you think he's better than Manu, he's the third best SG in the division. When he has gaudy numbers and the Rockets don't make the playoffs, you can get back with me. Seems odd that the chuckers traded for him shoot less than he does.


i suppose it takes some doing to get Orlando to trade Howard for Afflalao or Vancouver prospects for Gasol or the 13th pick for Vlade Divac. Real tough work there.
If it's so fucking easy, why didn't everyone else do it? Why didn't the Clippers do it? Why didn't Miami do it? Why couldn't New Jersey (the team Howard STILL wants to play for) do it? Oh yeah, they didn't have Andrew Bynum, who the Lakers drafted, developed and refused to trade through several years of blockbuster offers. Same with the Gasol trade. Not the Lakers' fault that they got it done when nobody else could. And the fact that the 13th pick turned into Kobe was good scouting, as (duh) 12 teams passed on him, and nobody thought he was going to be much. Most people thought the Divac trade was a good move by Charlotte.


Look at their roster. Other than Kobe who have they developed?
Other than guys like Andrew Bynum, Derek Fisher, Devean George, Rony Turiaf, Jordan Farmar, and Sasha Vujacic who all contributed to titles? How about Vlade Divac, who they traded for Kobe? I agree that it's shitty that Shaq left Orlando for the Lakers, but he was determined to be a Laker. Find me a commissioner that has the power to stop that.


They use their financial position to sign players or to leverage trades and therein lies their competitive advantage.
They had no financial position to abuse when they got Shaq. He wanted to go there because they were the marquee team in the big market. They had no more financial advantage than any other team when they took advantage of the Grizzlies' attempts to devalue the franchise by moving Gasol. They had no more financial advantage than any other team when they took advantage of Denver and Orlando and Philly to dismantle their teams in order to get whatever they got in the Dwight Howard trade. They also had the balls to sign Howard with no guarantee that he'd re-sign with them, something nobody else would do. Again, if blockbuster trades were so easy, everyone would do it. If it were only the Lakers' financial position that allowed it, then they'd be the only ones to EVER do it, and they're not. Why is it okay for OKC to draft Durant and Harden and Westbrook with top four picks, but it's somehow cheating if the Lakers do it with the 26th (Divac), tenth (Bynum) and thirteenth (Bryant) picks? News flash: Steve Nash doesn't come to play for the Lakers in 2012 if the Lakers draft Lorenzen Wright in 1996.


i don't deny that Riley built a team back in the 1980s but the Lakers have been exploiting their monetary advantage ever since. It's not 'hard work' not anymore it's not.
lolwut? The Kareem trade was one of the most one-sided in history, moreso than either Howard or Gasol. The Lakers got awarded Magic Johnson because the Jazz signed one of their free agents. Not sure how that's harder work than what the Lakers have done since Shaq left and they couldn't get out of the first round with Kobe and Smush Parker. There was no TV contract at that time, and nobody wanted to play with Kobe. I wonder what the Clippers' excuse was then. "Oh, we're a small market". lul.


Compare that with OKC who did the work scouting and player development but either choose to lose their players to larger markets or ask their ownership to take a loss.
If the financial numbers worked out the way you claim, you could make a case. They don't, and you can't. They also didn't lose their player, they decided, correctly, that he wasn't worth the max and traded him. With top four lottery picks three years in a row, the only risk they ran during that stretch was picking Greg Oden. If you're blaming the Lakers for not sucking super bad three years in a row and then getting lucky with ping pong balls in strong drafts to boot, then I don't really know how someone can defend from that kind of attack.


At least you gave up the argument about the Clippers being a large market team.
Actually, I told you that you're stupid for even trying to say they aren't. I didn't think it required repeating. If you think the Clippers aren't a large market team, then you're a moron. Period.


The Lakers had been entrenched since before 1960 and the Clippers didn't move from San Diego until 1981. While the Clippers were bad the Dodgers and Showtime dominated the media time and later the Kings. Remember the Gretzky trade? Meanwhile the Clippers got to play farm team for NBA clubs.
...in Los Angeles, the second biggest market. The Kings managed to get the best hockey player in the world, while the Clippers missed out on some of the greatest players in history that were readily available in the draft. They then let pretty decent players leave for nothing via free agency without even bothering to trade them away. Again, show me a commissioner that can fix that kind of ineptitude.


The thing that sticks out to me more than anything though --and something you just chose to ignore-- was while Stern was leaving lockout negotiations, Holt, speaking for smallmarket teams, spoke publicly that small market interests were not being considered and they felt they had to make a stand.

The fact that you miss out on is that Holt was the chairman of the league labor committee, and guess who appointed him? Yep, David Stern. Holt and the committee were given the right to speak for all the teams. Stern didn't have any hand in it. In fact, he had the flu when the owners left the table at one point. If the facts matched up to many of the things you say, again, there might be a case to be made. The things you say are the rantings of an angry fan who doesn't like what the refs and the Lakers and circumstances have done to his team. Admirable, as homerism goes. Not remotely connected to reality though.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Nobody reads the line by line. If you want to make a compelling arguement that anyone else cares about then you would be best not to resort to the strategy. I msyelf got bored halfway through especially with all your unsubstantiated assertions.

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol


Derek Fisher, Devean George, Rony Turiaf, Jordan Farmar, and Sasha Vujacic

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

1) thank you for that.

2) you don't get to be that arbiter of who is worthy of being a spurs fan. That is asinine. no downright idiotic on several levels

3) :lol :lol :lol :lol Sasha Vujacic thanks again

4) http://articles.nydailynews.com/1996-07-09/sports/18010538_1_magic-owner-rich-devos-shaq-signs-o-neal-signs yeah they signed O'Neal through hard work... of course ever team could afford to pay a 7 year $120m deal in 1996. The Spurs and Warriors sure could compete with that even without the collusion

5) :lol :lol :lol :lol Devean George :lol :lol :lol hard work!

6) It was widely held that given the market nature of OKC they were borderline irresponsible to have three players signed to that amount. The reason wasn't because they didn't have the best young trio in the game but because what it would have meant in trying to field a team and the incrementally more draconian luxury tax.

7) do you really think that LA, NY, Dallas, or Chicago would have hesitated for a moment to retain him?

8) the market determines what contract a player is worth. several teams were clearing room and it was widely reported that Harden along with Bynum were to be the jewels of next years crop. I know you have your nose in shit but its widely publicized.

9) :lol :lol :lol :lol Ronny Turiaf

10) “The culmination of the decision to ultimately move in another direction; we got to a point where we were very transparent, very direct as we are with all of our negotiations with our players as to the fact we had reached a point where we needed to make a decision. We made a final proposal on Friday morning that was unacceptable. We then came back prior to beginning to execute a trade initiation with another proposal. And we were very transparent with James that if this is not acceptable then we were going to have to move towards making the best decision for the franchise given the fact that it was becoming a reality that more than likely he’d be signing elsewhere at the end of the season. Once that reality was met, as we have in the past, this organization turned the page. We started to focus on what was in the best interest of the program and focus on capitalizing on an opportunity to help us both in the short term and also continue to strengthen the future of the Thunder organization and building this program in a sustainable fashion.”

Do you need me to hold your mental hand through the meaning of sustainability in terms of financial policy?

11) I did like the part where you claim that Manu is better than Harden. Nevermind the 13 years of 'experience' and rigorous endurance he has on Harden but it sure was apparent in the playoffs.

12) I did like how you dropped most of the star treatment discussion but for a nonsequitor. You admitted that they call star players differently anyway so your pout was moot anyway.

13) You obviously don't know about market saturation. i'll help:


Competitive Analysis
The Clippers have an advantage of being in such a densely populated region of California, in the heart of downtown Los Angeles, so attracting a large fan base in theory should not be difficult. However, the Clippers face a massive amount of competition for time spent pursuing recreational entertainment activities. With several other sports franchises, Hollywood, and a massive night life; competing forms of entertainment are a major threat to the success of the Clippers. The Staples Center of downtown Los Angeles is the versatile home of the Clippers as well as their rivals, the Los Angeles Lakers, and other sports franchises such as the LA Kings (NHL) and the LA Sparks (WNBA). LA is also home to the Dodgers, Angels and Galaxy, three more major sport franchises that are all competing for the recreational dollars of LA’s residents. The Staples Center is not only a sports venue it is also home of LA Live. L.A. Live is a sports and entertainment district surrounding the Staples Center. Inside LA Live are music venues, night clubs, restaurants, a bowling alley, museum and movie theaters, LA Live has positioned itself as the place to go in LA for live entertainment. Competing with the Lakers is no small task, but one way the Clippers have had success is through price. Price is a major factor determining fan support. Clippers tickets are substantially cheaper than those of the Lakers. Fans can sit on the 300 level for as little as $15 or spend up to $150 to sit in the 100 level seats. The Lakers, also playing in LA’s Staples Center, charge $30 for the same 300 level seat and 100 level seats reach up to $282.2 For LA basketball fans, ticket pricing can determine team loyalty. Those who cannot afford the Lakers’ prices, but still want to attend a game, have the Clippers as an alternative.

http://pages.uoregon.edu/dcheney/docs/clippers.pdf

It's actually a very interesting read. I enjoyed it.

14) Stern didn't appoint Holt. Look up the NBA Board of directors and try again.

[Mr. Body]

Good riddance. I've come to hate that creep.

Yes, he's done a good job of advancing the sport throughout the world. He's done his part.

But it would take a moron to have blown the expansion/success of the NBA in the era of ESPN's explosion and Michael Jordan's existence. He presided over, from the mid-1980s, probably the era of the greatest concentration of pure talent in world basketball history. It would take a moron to fail at that. And he's no moron.

Yet he turned the game into a star-centric spectacle where stars get unbelievable treatment. He continually favored certain teams and markets. He presided over two flagrant cash-grabs on behalf of the owners in two lock-outs, including last year's complete debacle (why it's not discussed more is beyond me). He raped the city of Seattle unmercifully, helping a team of cronies steal away a beloved franchise for no apparent reason.

Fuck that guy.

[Obstructed_View]

Nobody reads the line by line. If you want to make a compelling arguement that anyone else cares about then you would be best not to resort to the strategy. I msyelf got bored halfway through especially with all your unsubstantiated assertions.

Well, that's too bad, since everything I posted was completely true and researched. The Lakers players developed all contributed to titles, many of them at the expense of the Spurs. Again, you have no business claiming to be a Spurs fan if you don't realize it. Also, LA is still a big market. Also, the NBA board of directors is not the same as the league labor committee.

Also, "star calls". Lol. Dwight Howard fouled out. Dumbass.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You sound like one of those GW deniers pointing to a cold winter day and using that as a basis. Larry Brown absolutely threw a shit fit about NBA officiating of star traeatment and you even said they are reluctant to call 6th calls on stars. Now you are backtracking on that and with this lame ass 'deserve to be a spurs fan' nonsense.

Prove that Stern appointed Holt. You made the assertion now prove it. I was trying to point you to who did appoint him but by all means demonstrate.

Really at the end of the day you aren't even adressing arguments.

Marketshare. Shaq's contract in 1996. Presti's comments about the contract size and financial sustainability. You don't deny that the big markets would have resigned him. The list goes on.

You also completely miss my point about the line by line. Posturing about what it said was fun and all but no one read it. I only read most of it because the line by line is just so fucking lame. it's right up there with the wall of text. People see it and turn the scroll wheel.

As soon as you started with the whole 'deserve to be a Spur fan' I realized that you were beyond reasoning with and when you posted Farmar, Shasha and Co as examples of the Lakers hard work in developing talent I knew that you were either trolling or pretty stupid. To you this is a pissing contest.

I am not writing this for your sake. I am not trying to appeal to your reason. I am trying to write such that if someone else reads this they will see quickly how asinine your position is. You still don't get it. It's kinda humorous, mouthbreather.

[Obstructed_View]

You sound like one of those GW deniers pointing to a cold winter day and using that as a basis.
Yeah, we all knew you were an idiot. Stop proving the point further.


Larry Brown absolutely threw a shit fit about NBA officiating of star traeatment
Larry Brown threw a lot of shit fits. Most of them were because his team lost. His last one had no stars, so what do you expect him to throw a shit fit about?



and you even said they are reluctant to call 6th calls on stars. Now you are backtracking on that and with this lame ass 'deserve to be a spurs fan' nonsense.
I was trying to find some way that your argument wasn't completely insane. And then Dwight Howard fouled out in game one as a Laker. So much for sanity. It's your complete lack of knowledge of anything NBA or Spurs-related that makes you unworthy to call yourself a Spurs fan, at least an educated one.


Prove that Stern appointed Holt. You made the assertion now prove it. I was trying to point you to who did appoint him but by all means demonstrate.
http://aol.sportingnews.com/nba/story/2011-11-09/spurs-owner-holt-holds-key-to-ending-lockout

"Holt is widely respected around the league, a cool head on a committee that Stern pieced together two years ago, probably with some regrets. "


Really at the end of the day you aren't even adressing arguments.
I've addressed every argument and debunked them all. You continue to state your belief as fact and cite people with similar opinions to back up your position.


Marketshare.
...has nothing to do with market size. The Clippers are last in a huge market because they suck and make stupid decisions, not because David Stern forces fans not to go to their games. The last horse in a horse race is still a racehorse.


Shaq's contract in 1996.
...was less than Orlando could pay him. Shaq left Orlando, in part, because he didn't like the way the local fans and the media were treating him.


Presti's comments about the contract size and financial sustainability.
...are his opinion, indicative of nothing.


You don't deny that the big markets would have resigned him.
And you don't deny that the Thunder COULD have resigned him. Again, indicative of nothing.


The list goes on.

:lol


You also completely miss my point about the line by line. Posturing about what it said was fun and all but no one read it.
Since you did it first, I continued. There were way more things that you said that were completely stupid. Sorry it got so long. No one else is reading it because you admit you have no proof in your original post. I just find this entertaining.


I only read most of it because the line by line is just so fucking lame. it's right up there with the wall of text. People see it and turn the scroll wheel.
Though you did it too. I actually thought you might read it and realize you were wrong. Again, if it weren't fun to piss you off, I'd call it wasted time.


As soon as you started with the whole 'deserve to be a Spur fan' I realized that you were beyond reasoning with
Attempts to shame you for your unbelievable ignorance don't work. Check.


and when you posted Farmar, Shasha and Co as examples of the Lakers hard work in developing talent I knew that you were either trolling or pretty stupid.
Guys who contributed to titles as role players or trade chips don't count to you. Check. "I know Pat Riley built teams with hard work, but the current Lakers who beat the Spurs just had it handed to them by the commish and the refs." Well, if anyone has a handle on "pretty stupid", it's you.


To you this is a pissing contest.
It's more like a clubbing baby seals contest. You shouldn't have stuck your head out of the ice.


I am not writing this for your sake. I am not trying to appeal to your reason. I am trying to write such that if someone else reads this they will see quickly how asinine your position is. You still don't get it. It's kinda humorous, mouthbreather.
Since you attacked several people on here who have a favorable opinion of Stern, you don't respond to logic, and you call names and state your opinions as fact with admittedly no proof, it's very clear that you're not trying to appeal to anyone's reason. :lol

All the things you hate about the NBA are not directly - or in most ways, even indirectly - the fault of the commissioner. The sport soared in popularity under his watch, both in the US and globally, players and owners alike made money (Even Donald Sterling who was mailing it in) and new teams like Chicago and San Antonio and Detroit and Miami and Dallas won titles, despite the commissioner, all the league's personnel people and the refs being in the bag for the Lakers.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

:lol more line by line and posturing

[FuzzyLumpkins]

1) Franchise stability. That's what Presti cited was the reason for not signing Harden ie the franchise could not remain solvent and signed him. Again back to my point about making a choice between competing and even breaking even financially. Sure they could have gone into debt to sign him but that is a clear disadvantage to teams like the Lakers who are going to pay around $90m in luxury tax next year or Mark Cuban who signs multiple free agents to big contracts year after year. You do not deny that the large markets would have signed him no hesitation.

And I also want to point out that while you claim to have debunked everything you do not deny that the big market teams would not have hesitated to sign him. You tried to change the subject but that is dropping the argument with a bait and switch and not debunking anything.

2) Star treatment: Indiviual anecdotes of star players fouling out when the commit flagrant fouls and only get called for a foul aside I posit:


At an MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference two researches named Tobias Moskowitz and Jon Wertheim presented data that proved stars get preferred treatment. The results were based over a three year study that looked at over 1.5 million plays in 3500 different games. It looked at the loose ball foul calls on so called "star" players. They determined which players were star players based on MVP votes.



The results were not shocking to me. The article stated:

"-42 percent of loose balls fouls called on stars in “regular” situation compared to 57 percent of the time on non-stars in plays.

-The numbers show a much more dramatic shift, favoring the star players when they are in “foul” trouble with only 28 percent of foul calls being called on them, a huge drop from the earlier 42 percent.

-When the roles are reversed however, and the non-star is in foul trouble, the numbers normalize again with 48 percent of the fouls called on the non-star compared to 51 percent for the star.

The other study involving the NBA involved a look at subjective calls (offensive fouls, traveling, double dribble, etc.) being made compared to non-subjective calls (kick ball, 24 second violation, etc.) over the course of the game. The tendency to want to let the players decide the game in close as well as late game situations showed itself once again in the form of omission bias, with the rate of calls falling dramatically from the 1st half to the 2nd half. Another even sharper drop in subjective calls was apparent in overtime games with the subjective or “judgment” calls. The non-subjective call rates remained very level over those time spans." (Bias in Officiating)

http://www.unicommons.com/node/26118

Stan Van Gundy and Larry Brown see it:

http://www.aolnews.com/2009/12/15/brown-van-gundy-unhappy-about-nba-star-treatment/


"The reality is, it depends on the person,'' Brown said to the newspaper. "Some people can do that and some can't. And that's wrong. You can't ref that way. For players to say they're confused by how things are called, I can see a lot of guys honestly saying that.''

"I don't think the stars should get preferential treatment at all," he said. "The rules should be called. I don't think their ability [or] size, should work for or against them. The ideal world is call the rules. That's what you want done. But coaches -- we're not the most objective people in the world.''

BBall Breakdown Notes that while Wade gets preferential treatment in the 2006 playoffs it did not determine the outcome of the game

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82 games Does a Nice statistical analysis of bias by refs:

http://www.82games.com/fouldraw.htm

PJ Brown, Phil Jackson, Bob Hill and Gearld Wallace Chime in


"He gets all the calls, that's what makes him special.'' - Gerald Wallace

"It's unbelievable what he gets away with.'' - Bob Hill

"I can't believe he has the audacity to complain to the refs, he should be grateful for what they've done for him in his career. He is what he is today because of them." - P.J. Brown

"He travels on that spin move. He picks up that pivot foot... everybody knows it. Dwayne Wade can cover so much ground when he makes that move. As you know, he can go 20 feet with that spin move and get to the basket." - Phil Jackson

Sam Smith has this to say on NBA.com


Do the referees consciously protect James knowing he is perhaps the league's top marketing figure and he is featured more than any player on the nightly sports highlights? I always doubt that knowing the integrity of the refereeing corps as a group and believe NBA officiating is the best in sports.

Still, we've never seen anything like this. Especially at a time when it is generally agreed with rules changes it is the most difficult time to defend on the perimeter without committing fouls.

James is averaging 1.72 fouls per game in an average of 37.9 minutes per game. James hasn't even been in foul trouble one game this season. He never has had more than four fouls called on him in a game, and since March 1 is being called for fewer than 1.3 fouls per game.

In 12 of the 20 games since then, James has been called for one or zero fouls in a game. James had a stretch of five straight games to conclude March averaging 36.8 minutes per game without being called for one foul. Not one in five games! In the last nine games, James has been called for three personal fouls. It's really amazing given the involvement James has in the action of the game.

"It's impossible," said one team executive.

The executive said there is one slight explanation. That the game has changed to so much drive and kick that the perimeter defenders end up guarding the three so much, and don't foul as often. That there is less one on one penetration. Still, he said not for five consecutive games like that.

James is now averaging 2.02 fouls per game in his career and has fouled out just three times in six seasons. Jordan averaged 2.6 fouls per game in his career and had fouled out eight times in his first six seasons.

Jordan averaged fewer than two fouls per game only in his last two seasons when he was not as active as a defender, and never as few as James' current 1.72. Among some of the great perimeter players in history, at a time when substantially more perimeter contact was allowed, Larry Bird averaged about 2.5 fouls, Magic Johnson 2.26 and Jerry West and Oscar Robertson well above two per game.

In the game now, Kobe Bryant has a career average of about 2.7 fouls per game and is about 2.3 this season. Dwyane Wade has a career average of 2.67 and is about 2.2 this season.

The all-time star with the fewest personal fouls was Wilt Chamberlain, who never fouled out of a game in his 14-year career. It was a point of pride with Wilt, who averaged 1.99 fouls per game in his career, barely below where James is now.

It simply defies explanation how James, who is an aggressive player, can be whistled for so few fouls per game, and especially at a time his team is saying he never has played better defense and when the rules are more stringent regarding perimeter contact. Can he truly be that perfect?

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/smith2_090406.html

3) Andrew Bynum and the scrub all star team Sasha, George et al. i would first like to point out that the Lakers upgraded from Bynum because they realized that he wouldn't get them a title and instead acquired Howard. HARD WORK! This is despite that with all of their salary commitments leading to $90m in tax while Presti is talking about franchise stability. i think it's Big Bird time:

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4) Another argument you just ignored: O'Neals 8 year $140m deal in 1996. I know it's fun to claim that every team could have offered that but it just not stand up. If you will recall David Robinson had a deal that guaranteed him the average of the top 5 salaries in the NBA. After the O'Neal and other deals the Spurs went to Robinson and told him that they could not afford to pay that. Robinson being the gracious man he is restructured. It's also important to note that the roster was full of solid starters but no other superstars so while Shaq was signing the most lucrative contract in sports history the Spurs are telling their supserstar that at those rates they will have to trade him or he needs to restructure. Robinson was the man!

5) How Holt got on that committee is immaterial. Holt went and publicly pleaded the case for small markets because Stern and Silver had shown no interest in doing so duing the proceedings.