James Harden traded to Rockets

[bklynspursfan]

Via Woj.. Will get tweet shortly


Adrian Wojnarowski @WojYahooNBA Oklahoma City has traded James Harden to
the Houston Rockets, league sources tell Y!
Sports.

[silverblackfan]

WTF?

[elemento]

For Kevin Martin, Jeremy Lamb, and future draft considerations.

:lmao

[timtonymanu]

Lakers cruising through the West now.

[Sisk]

Wow.

[Sisk]

Thought they'd get his deal done.

[bklynspursfan]

Rockets send:

Martin
Lamb
Draft Picks

Thunder send:

Harden
Aldridge
Hayward
Cook

[jon123spurs]

Wow did not see this coming maybe now spurs will look to make a trade. Highly doubt it though but shocking news.

[timtonymanu]

Kevin Martin is just as annoying as James Harden. I still hate OKC.

[tmtcsc]

Great trade for the Thunder. The dude showed his true colors during the NBA Finals and is well on his way to being a nobody for the Rockets. Presti is lining up future draft picks again.

[TDMVPDPOY]

lol the guys who all took paycuts or below market value just to keep the roster in tact, only to see one selfish bastard not backing out of a wanted max deal....

[jon123spurs]

Does this make Houston a contender? I say at best 6 or 7th seed in the west.

[timtonymanu]

Does this make Houston a contender? I say at best 6 or 7th seed in the west.

Umm no.

:lol Asik, Lin, and Harden as your Big 3.

[benefactor]

I need to see the picks before I judge this one.

[tmtcsc]

But...but...they're a family...they hang out together. How could this be ???? :rolleyes

[TDMVPDPOY]

lol didnt the rockets had like 5-6 draft picks this summer, only to trade it away and sign scrubs like asik and lin, now hardened....

thunder gave away hardened for lamb while the other pieces are just shit....

lol both teams

[tmtcsc]

Welcome to head-case-ville. He wont recover from his Finals debacle and he'll never smell the Finals for the duration of his time in Houston.

[benefactor]

If the Thunder get a protected first out of this it could wind up a decent deal. I still think they could have done better as Harden is pretty overrated as a whole.

[LittleCriminal]

Only trade that should matter is Bonner, Blair and Neal to the... ??? For ???

[99 Problems]

Yer Saw the flash just then on ESPN. Wow.

[elemento]

If OKC got that pick from TOR (from Lowry's deal) I'd say it's a good deal for OKC.

They got rid of all their trash, they got a starting SG and a good SG prospect + draft picks.

Presti is not kidding. Harden did not accept that extension and it took only a few days to trade Harden's ass. Now Harden will get the max contract he wanted from HOU.

[jon123spurs]

OKC also gets 2 first round pics and a 2nd round pick

[HI-FI]

If OKC got that pick from TOR (from Lowry's deal) I'd say it's a good deal for OKC.

They got rid of all their trash, they got a starting SG and a good SG prospect + draft picks.

Presti is not kidding. Harden did not accept that extension and it took only a few days to trade Harden's ass. Now Harden will get the max contract he wanted from HOU.
i admire Presti for the swiftness of it, but guess we'll see how this pans out. sad how he looked like an All Star against us and then he got exposed since then.

[ceperez]

Yeah! That what I like about Presti, guts to make the hard call and pull the trigger.

[Sa_Spursfan20]

Well, I didn't see this coming.

[elemento]

Adrian Wojnarowski ‏@WojYahooNBA
Houston plans to give James Harden a four year, $60 million extension once deal is completed, league sources tell Y! Sports.

Well, Harden will get what he wanted.

[Thompson]

That seems... odd. Did Harden have attitude problems (when it came to his own team)?

[tim_duncan_fan]

We're still a long-shot, but:

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbn4c3ytWl1qd76hm.gif

[capek]

Another good reason just to go to Rockets games to root against them.

[Bruno]

WoW. That was unexpected and quick. The new CBA is certainly a big reason of that trade which is paradoxical given that it should affect mainly big market teams.

Thunder got a good return for harden with a solid player, a good prospect and picks. Saying that, they are now weaker and will especially miss Harden playmaking skills. The ball will be even more in Westbrook hands which could turn problematic with his relatively poor BBIQ.

And lol Rockets. Welcome back to the 9th seed in the west. I guess they will never learn how to rebuild a team.

Spurs should now focus even more on the Lakers and looking at available 7 footers. It's too a 2 for 4 (2 for 3 because Hayward sucks) for Houston which mean that the players they will cut to reach the 15 max roster limit should be even more interesting. Spurs should closely follow the waiver wire in the next couple of days.

[Solid D]

That looks like a pretty smart trade for OKC. Of course, the chemistry of a team will be a concern when trades like this happen. One never knows for sure how new players will mesh. The Thunder will hope that Thabo stays healthy. Otherwise, their defense will take a step back with this deal.

[timvp]

Wow, great news for the Spurs. The Spurs beat the Thunder last season if they had Kevin Martin instead of Harden. Having Harden living up to the Ginobili 2.0 hype is a big reason why the spurs lost. Sure, he crashed and burned against the Heat but he gave the Spurs fits and there was no real reason to believe the Spurs would have figured him out this year.

The Spurs chances now just got a lot better. In fact, a healthy Spurs team is probably back to being a coinflip against OKC.

Awesome news :tu

[TDMVPDPOY]

this clown just pulled a joe johnson hahahaha

not only he wants max contract,,i think he wants to be franchise player

[Solid D]

Harden and Martin are both extremely adept at getting to the line and both provide scoring energy. Harden is clearly a better defender.

[TDMVPDPOY]

speaking of which i dont think it hurts the thunder roster, aint they stacked? they still have some quality on the bench that was injured in the playoffs last season...maynor?

[elemento]

@DLHQ: Sam Presti: "I am the one who knocks."

:lmao

[LkrFan]

lol the guys who all took paycuts or below market value just to keep the roster in tact, only to see one selfish bastard not backing out of a wanted max deal....
:)

[Juggity]

Holy shit, this was unexpected

[LkrFan]

WoW. That was unexpected and quick. The new CBA is certainly a big reason of that trade which is paradoxical given that it should affect mainly big market teams.

Thunder got a good return for harden with a solid player, a good prospect and picks. Saying that, they are now weaker and will especially miss Harden playmaking skills. The ball will be even more in Westbrook hands which could turn problematic with his relatively poor BBIQ.

And lol Rockets. Welcome back to the 9th seed in the west. I guess they will never learn how to rebuild a team.

Spurs should now focus even more on the Lakers and looking at available 7 footers. It's too a 2 for 4 (2 for 3 because Hayward sucks) for Houston which mean that the players they will cut to reach the 15 max roster limit should be even more interesting. Spurs should closely follow the waiver wire in the next couple of days.

:)

[timvp]

The more I think of this move, the more I love in from the Spurs perspective. I'm not concerned about Kevin Martin at all. He's fragile, extremely one-dimensional (is only a scorer), doesn't create for others, poor defender, below average everywhere else. Great scorer who is amazingly efficient ... but, tbh, they already have that in Durant.

Harden, on the other hand, was as Manu-esque in terms of being able to do it all. Great feel for the game, played a smart brand of basketball and come the fourth quarter his ability to get to the line made it really difficult to stay close with the Thunder. On top of that, he fit in perfectly in the sixth man role and the chemistry next to Durant and Russell Westbrook seemed near perfect (at least against the Spurs).

Speaking of Westbrook, Parker and Co. pretty much shut him down last year in the playoffs ... especially if you compare what Westbrook did against the Spurs to what he did against the other three opponents OKC met in the playoffs. If the Spurs can continue to contain Westbrook, they just need to find a way to slow down Durant a little bit to really match up well against the Thunder now.

As great as Durant was in the playoffs, I really thought it was Harden's all around play that doomed the Spurs. We knew that Durant was going to be great ... but Harden playing near a Ginobili-in-his-prime level was the straw that broke the camel's back.

I can see what OKC was thinking in this trade and this move won't hurt them too much in other matchups (it might even help them against the Heat) but this deal is a huge win for the Spurs. The Spurs can figure out a way to combat Kevin Martin. Harden was a totally different beast just because he basically negated Ginobili and the Spurs had/have nothing to throw at him.

Thanks Presti :tu

[dallasmaverickslose]

I honestly did not see this coming! It's interesting that after making the finals with Harden last season, the Thunder are not standing pat, by trading him and getting some new players and all...

Still wish we'd make a move for somebody! Nande de Colo alone isn't satisfying enough for an offseason. Hopefully the FO suprises us and reels in a good 4 that we've been waiting for...

[ElNono]

Houston also sent two 2013 first-round picks (from Dallas and Toronto) to Oklahoma City, sources told Y! Sports, as well as a 2013 second-round pick (via Charlotte). The Thunder will receive the Toronto pick this year if it's slotted Nos. 4-14. That pick also is top-three protected in 2014, top-two protected in 2015 and top-one protected in 2016.

Per Woj

[jesterbobman]

I think this is Presti taking a step back to take two steps forward. With their cap situation, keeping Harden was going to be expensive(Way over the cap/Tax) With this, they can keep Lamb and the talent from 2 picks later to replenish stocks that leave due to being too expensive(Maynor could go, might replace depth bigs etc). They're weaker this year, but it was a long term, strategic decision.

I kind of like it for both teams. Harden was a max guy at his low usage, and even with some drop off in efficiency with an increased role he can still probably go 60% TS, Which is the same ridiculous level as Durant. Rockets bundled up depth for a star, which suits them.

Good for us too. We have a limited window, and a better chance this year helps alot(Who cares about in 5 years, We're not contending then anyway)

[ElNono]

I don't even think OKC was interested in Martin other than clearing up $14 million at the end of the season which will let them extend Sefolosha and keep Maynor. They get a 4-14 pick in the next draft to boot. Sure, it cost them Harden, but they couldn't pay him anyways. Good move by Presti, IMO.

[timvp]

Those are some nice picks Presti is getting in this deal ... but like jesterbobman pointed out, the Spurs will gladly accept a weaker Thunder team now even if it means a much stronger Thunder team down the line. The Spurs will be rebuilding by the time those assets ripen.

[racm]

Good long-term move, but this improves the Spurs' chances at winning it all.

Pop and RC better move for a decent 4, preferably including Bonner in the deal.

[ElNono]

Those are some nice picks Presti is getting in this deal ... but like jesterbobman pointed out, the Spurs will gladly accept a weaker Thunder team now even if it means a much stronger Thunder team down the line. The Spurs will be rebuilding by the time those assets ripen.

Don't necessarily disagree, but Durant is only getting better too, which is a scary thought, tbh

[timtonymanu]

So the Spurs are now WCF exits at best. Until the team gets a decent backup PF, I don't believe they will get higher than that.

Pop seems content with another year of Bonner/Blair.

[jon123spurs]

Somewhere right now Seattle sonic fans are rejoicing.

[timvp]

Don't necessarily disagree, but Durant is only getting better too, which is a scary thought, tbh

It should also be scary for Durant because now OKC's fourth quarter point guard plays for the Rockets. Having to rely on Westbrook to make the right plays in money time (AKA pass it to Durant) won't be fun.

But, like always, at the end of the day this helps the Lakers the most. (As if they needed more help after the summer they had :rolleyes) They are now the heavy favorite in the West. I really do think this knocks the Thunder down from the top with the Lakers to on the same pedestal with a completely healthy Spurs team.

[racm]

Don't necessarily disagree, but Durant is only getting better too, which is a scary thought, tbh

KD's good but he can only carry OKC so far. Getting into Westbrook's head and forcing him to hero ball makes them lose, and seeing as they lose a valuable pressure valve in Harden they'll be pretty meh this season.

[ElNono]

It should also be scary for Durant because now OKC's fourth quarter point guard plays for the Rockets. Having to rely on Westbrook to make the right plays in money time (AKA pass it to Durant) won't be fun.

But, like always, at the end of the day this helps the Lakers the most. (As if they needed more help after the summer they had :rolleyes) They are now the heavy favorite in the West. I really do think this knocks the Thunder down from the top with the Lakers to on the same pedestal with a completely healthy Spurs team.

I'll tell you what I think about the Lakeshow by the ASG, tbh... I know on paper everything looks glorious, but I won't be betting the farm on them yet... It's not Howard the concern, it's the rest of the aging cast and the bench.

While I agree about Westchuck, he also didn't get in the way for them to get to the Finals. Sefolosha is a good defender, and they have all young bodies in OKC that can play 40+ mins if needed be (exception being perhaps Perkins).

Frankly, Durant and Lebron are, IMO, the top 2 players in the league right now by a wide margin.

[TDMVPDPOY]

this didnt do shit besides makn the path for the lakers easier in the playoffs, let alone the shitty clippers

[racm]

I'll tell you what I think about the Lakeshow by the ASG, tbh... I know on paper everything looks glorious, but I won't be betting the farm on them yet... It's not Howard the concern, it's the rest of the aging cast and the bench.

While I agree about Westchuck, he also didn't get in the way for them to get to the Finals. Sefolosha is a good defender, and they have all young bodies in OKC that can play 40+ mins if needed be (exception being perhaps Perkins).

Frankly, Durant and Lebron are, IMO, the top 2 players in the league right now by a wide margin.

Perkins is their weak link, tbh. No reason to keep him long term because KD's still a mismatch at the 4 and Ibaka can play the 5.

And I agree the Lakers will start slow. Even the Heatles started out 9-8 (and lost at home to the Utah Jazz and Paul Millsap)

[Libri]

The question now is, does this motivate Pop to make a move or will he be even more reluctant, knowing that OKC might have weakend themselves?

[ElNono]

Perkins is their weak link, tbh. No reason to keep him long term because KD's still a mismatch at the 4 and Ibaka can play the 5.

And I agree the Lakers will start slow. Even the Heatles started out 9-8 (and lost at home to the Utah Jazz and Paul Millsap)

Perkins has his role on defense. Instead of wearing out KD guarding bigs (ie: Gasol, Griffin, etc), they can keep him fresh on offense. Plus Ibaka is much more useful as a help defender than a low-block defender.

What happens now though, is that OKC used to have the luxury of playing Ibaka, Perk and Sefolosha because they had enough offense with Harden, KD and Westbrook. Now 16 ppg are gone, and I don't think Martin gives them the same two way player Harden was. So it's going to be interesting how that plays out.

[timvp]

As for the Rockets, this is a very Rocket-esque move. Harden will be good enough to keep them from properly tanking but not good enough to actually contend. It looked like they were finally were going to get out of that 9th seed loop ... but there right back there.

Saving up assets to land a big fish and ending up with Harden is pretty funny. I mean, there's like a 1% chance he ends up being a superstar ... but that's about it. Maxed out, he's probably a third banana on a championship team. I don't even see him making the leap to No. 2.

That said, the contract they are giving him is far. He's worth $60M.

[BatManu20]

Good news for the Spurs. Unfortunately, it's even better news for the Lakers. Barring an injury, the Lakers are cruising through the West. The Spurs, especially without a Center, don't stand a chance. Hopefully we'll get the #2 seed at least though.

[HI-FI]

this move by Presti is what i hoped out of the new CBA, and if we had a hardcap we'd see more crazy stuff like this, which would add a lot of excitement and unpredictability to the league. but as it stands, Lakers can still open their pocketbook like Elliott Spitzer with an escort service, so it's hard to get too excited.

still, as some of have already said, I don't want to anoint the Lakers yet, i'll wait til the ASB to see how i feel. those nigs have more mileage than we do.

[justinandimcool]

Spurs big 3 lasts a decade, OKC can't make it over 3 years :lol


#thankful

[timtonymanu]

Spurs big 3 lasts a decade, OKC can't make it over 3 years :lol


#thankful

Yep, be thankful that our Big 3 is willing to sign for fair contracts. Otherwise they probably wouldn't even be around anymore.

[racm]

Good news for the Spurs. Unfortunately, it's even better news for the Lakers. Barring an injury, the Lakers are cruising through the West. The Spurs, especially without a Center, don't stand a chance. Hopefully we'll get the #2 seed at least though.

Lakers will start out slow, tbh.

[racm]

Spurs big 3 lasts a decade, OKC can't make it over 3 years :lol


#thankful

To be fair, Tony and Manu weren't lottery picks and teams overvalue players taken with high lottery picks.

And PATFO got them reasonable deals because 1. they weren't too concerned with the cash and 2. they snap up the players they have as early as possible.

[loveforthegame]

Damn. I didn't see that one coming.

[TDMVPDPOY]

new cba in affect, only hurts small market teams stacked with talent

[racm]

It's all Holt's master plan to make sure no other small market team is as competitive tbh :lol

[TDMVPDPOY]

didnt okc had a good draft? dont think it will hurt them much

[racm]

didnt okc had a good draft? dont think it will hurt them much

Considering they'll be drafting into the 20s for as long as Durant is there they won't be lucky to have a PJ3 fall into their laps again.

[DPG21920]

Have to agree with most - while I understand why OKC did the trade, Harden is underrated and KMart is overrated. This could be a pretty big blow to the ceiling of that OKC team and that is a good thing for SA. Fully understand the financial spot OKC is in and this was a tough call, but they moved decisively.

I get why HOU would do this - it's not a rebuild like you tradionally do, however, it's tough to get what looks to be champinoship caliber players on your roster (even if they aren't a number one option). You need guys like Harden if you want to build and they just got him earlier and are paying for it. They have potential to still move the needle in the next few years and if you get a chance to get a young talented player, you probably have to do it.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Have to agree with most - while I understand why OKC did the trade, Harden is underrated and KMart is overrated. This could be a pretty big blow to the ceiling of that OKC team and that is a good thing for SA. Fully understand the financial spot OKC is in and this was a tough call, but they moved decisively.

I get why HOU would do this - it's not a rebuild like you tradionally do, however, it's tough to get what looks to be champinoship caliber players on your roster (even if they aren't a number one option). You need guys like Harden if you want to build and they just got him earlier and are paying for it. They have potential to still move the needle in the next few years and if you get a chance to get a young talented player, you probably have to do it.

both are scrubs, kmart is injury prone, but both only play one side of the court only which is mainly offense....this trade doesnt hurt OKC, they are bankn on lamb to being something and that raptors pick in the mid teens looks good if it falls into their lap

[DPG21920]

Plus by acting on this early vs dragging this out, OKC maximizes the time the new team has together. That part of it is smart to me.

But if reports by Woj are true and OKC offered 54M vs 60M I cannot believe it came to this. That is a difference of only 1.5M per year over 4 years (before factoring in luxury tax). That is a more than fair contract offer from OKC - especially considering their financial situation as a small market.

[Juggity]

Yep, be thankful that our Big 3 is willing to sign for fair contracts. Otherwise they probably wouldn't even be around anymore.

Yeah, that is a good point. If there's one thing Presti did right in this trade (short term) it's getting rid of an egotistical jackass like Harden who asks for big money at the expense of his team signing more talent, but fails spectacularly on the biggest stage of all, quite feasibly costing his team a trophy.

[Russo21]

Interesting move. Kevin Martin is a great scorer but doesn't do much else. Haven't notcied much of his defence or play making skills over the years. Do they need another good scorer instead of an all aorund player like Harden. Maybe the Thunder just got weaker. As someone said before, we beat the Thunder in 2012 if they had Martin instead of Harden. But still

Perkins
Ibaka
Durant
Martin
Westbrook

Pretty fucken good starting 5. 2 really good defensive bigs on the inside and 3 scoring machines on the outside. Yuck

[SpurPadre]

both are scrubs, kmart is injury prone, but both only play one side of the court only which is mainly offense....this trade doesnt hurt OKC, they are bankn on lamb to being something and that raptors pick in the mid teens looks good if it falls into their lap

Get real, Harden is NOT a scrub. He's an AS caliber-player who isn't even in his prime yet. It's a blow to OKC for the short-term, though. I do agree that Martin is injury-prone but he always seems to hurt us head to head. I'd rather face a team that has Martin over Harden, though, that's for sure. A part of me wanted us to get revenge on OKC with Harden there but oh well. The happiest team in the league right now is the Lakers, tbh. That said, they're still paper champs with the worst defensive player in the league as their PG, who's also an old fart.

[SpurPadre]

Interesting move. Kevin Martin is a great scorer but doesn't do much else. Haven't notcied much of his defence or play making skills over the years. Do they need another good scorer instead of an all aorund player like Harden. Maybe the Thunder just got weaker. As someone said before, we beat the Thunder in 2012 if they had Martin instead of Harden. But still

Perkins
Ibaka
Durant
Martin
Westbrook

Pretty fucken good starting 5. 2 really good defensive bigs on the inside and 3 scoring machines on the outside. Yuck

Uh, Sefolosha started over Harden so he'll start over Martin, too.

[Russo21]

Oh whatever SpurPadre. Sefolosha or Harden. Same shit. Same us as with Manu and whoever we start at SG ahead of him. You know what i meant. They are scary then, they can go offensive with Martin at the 2 or defense with Thabo at the 2. Damn.

[DPG21920]

I don't think anyone is saying OKC will suck - it's just that Harden is a better player than Martin. I don't think that is arguable. OKC did get some trade assets though (first round picks) so it will be interesting to see if they do anything else.

[racm]

OKC's still a good team but they shot themselves in the foot.

Yes, it's sabermetrics but still (http://wagesofwins.com/2012/10/27/the-thunders-epic-failure/)

[SpurPadre]

Oh whatever SpurPadre. Sefolosha or Harden. Same shit. Same us as with Manu and whoever we start at SG ahead of him. You know what i meant. They are scary then, they can go offensive with Martin at the 2 or defense with Thabo at the 2. Damn.

No, it isn't "whatever". No offense but starting Sefolosha over Martin is a much better move than starting Martin over him. I agree with you that OKC is still a contender and still a scary team...but still weaker today than they were last season.

[Russo21]

Though Harden did better then Martin in every statistical catergory last year except points (Martin 17.1 Harden 16.8) Every other category, ast, reb, stl, blk, fg%, 3ptfg% Harden beat out Martin and he is a prick to play against also. So hopefuly OKC chemistry gets mucked up and they lose a good all round player for a player i see as mainly just a scorer. Maybe the Thunder just got worse.

[ace3g]

well this really helps out my prediction that Perry Jones will have a good season

[ace3g]

Alex Kennedy ‏@AlexKennedyNBA

Another crazy NBA offseason. Since June, we've had 31 trades involving 96 players. And 29 of 30 teams - all but the Spurs - made a trade.

[SpurPadre]

I should note that a Harden and Lin backcourt could be very entertaining. I mean, I'm not one that bought into the Lin overhype; the dude is a turnover machine that makes Beno Udrih look surehanded...but he still has potential to do some good things for the Rockets. And now with Harden on board, they're going to be competitive somehow. They won't be contenders but they'll still be tough.

[freetiago]

a lot of overrating of harden going on in here
people acting like had a hakeem series vs us
his best game was game 2 where the spurs beatdown the thunder and everyone was creaming themselves and making prediction of the spurs going undefeated

outside of hitting one big shot in game 5 he didnt have much of an effect on the series
he couldnt even guard old man manu

kevin martin is one of the if not the best offball player in the league
and ive followed jeremy lamb in summer league and he looks like another future stud
that on top of the lottery picks okc gets makes this a trade rape
over half of okcs team will be talented lottery players
theyre gonna be stacked in 2 years and they dont really get worse in the meantime

and these new anti flopping rule basically kills hardens game
he either shoots open 3s or drives to the basket and holds the ball in front of him hoping someone reaches in so he can flop

[dunkman]

OKC should have paid Harden. Even when he's an terrible defensive player, he's clutch dropping 3's, makes indefensible points also has good playmaking skills. Martin, while a good player, isn't near that versatile, he's not that young either. The projects and picks, may pan out or not, Harden is only 22 and the real deal.

[siraulo23]

Alex Kennedy ‏@AlexKennedyNBA

Another crazy NBA offseason. Since June, we've had 31 trades involving 96 players. And 29 of 30 teams - all but the Spurs - made a trade.

lol

[loveforthegame]

Alex Kennedy ‏@AlexKennedyNBA

Another crazy NBA offseason. Since June, we've had 31 trades involving 96 players. And 29 of 30 teams - all but the Spurs - made a trade.

That's just sad.

[SpurPadre]

a lot of overrating of harden going on in here
people acting like had a hakeem series vs us
his best game was game 2 where the spurs beatdown the thunder and everyone was creaming themselves and making prediction of the spurs going undefeated

outside of hitting one big shot in game 5 he didnt have much of an effect on the series
he couldnt even guard old man manu

kevin martin is one of the if not the best offball player in the league
and ive followed jeremy lamb in summer league and he looks like another future stud
that on top of the lottery picks okc gets makes this a trade rape
over half of okcs team will be talented lottery players
theyre gonna be stacked in 2 years and they dont really get worse in the meantime

You lose the argument with your "he couldn't even guard old man manu" take. Nobody can guard old man Manu because old man Manu is still a damn good player. And no one is overrating Harden but you are underrating a guy who's only 23 and figures to get better. Your views on Martin as one of the best offball players in the league is pretty exagerrating, though. Yes, he's solid and he's killed us in the past but he's not one of the best offball players in the league. He's incredibly streaky and he's also injury-prone. He's also going to be 30 this season and has reached his ceiling while Harden hasn't hit his prime yet.

[Kidd K]

Was this really that unexpected for most of you? I told you guys Harden was going to get big cash and that OKC was too cheap to pay him what he wanted. Predictable as fuck imo. OKC owner is a bigtime cheapskate.

The best that would've happened was them trading him mid season. There's no way a penny pinching owner would let a huge asset like that simply walk after the season. He was going to get every bit out of him he could via trade. And you can get the most before the season starts.

[freetiago]

this isnt 05 anymore
you should look up manus stats in the first 2 rounds
and once they put sefolosha on him after the first 2 games ginobili was garbage except for game 5
and who is better then kevin martin off the ball
the only true offball players i can think of are rip hamilton and ray allen maybe klay thompson will take the next step this year and thats about it
and both of them were washed up years ago

harden game isnt gonna evolve to an all time great
he wont ever be a post up threat
and hell never be a good defender
and the anti flopping rules nuke his game

and its not even about kevin martin
he was just filler
jeremy lamb is basically another long talented shooter who can become better then kevin martin
ontop of another 2 future lottery picks
okc is gonna have a starting lineup full of talented long athletic lottery picks
durant westbrook ibaka pj3 lamb +2 lottery pikcs

compared to the spurs whose only lottery pick is duncan then the rest are past the 20 range

[racm]

And yet the Spurs made a WCF with only one lottery pick.

The last time the Spurs panicked and made an attempt at a super team they netted Richard Jeffers:loln. Patience is the key for Spurs fans.

[racm]

Was this really that unexpected for most of you? I told you guys Harden was going to get big cash and that OKC was too cheap to pay him what he wanted. Predictable as fuck imo. OKC owner is a bigtime cheapskate.

The best that would've happened was them trading him mid season. There's no way a penny pinching owner would let a huge asset like that simply walk after the season. He was going to get every bit out of him he could via trade. And you can get the most before the season starts.

Exactly. If Harden was moved at the deadline instead of right before the season he would have won them a fair share of games. Now KMart takes his minutes? :lmao

[freetiago]

having a top 10 player of all time as the lottery pick is the reason why
in the end its easier for me to believe a lottery pick player coming from management who knows how to draft will be better then relying on the likes of euro league rejects like danny green gary neal and matt bonner to produce when it matters

[racm]

Green was a D-Leaguer, son :lol

And the Spurs system is one where talent doesn't really matter - or shouldn't really matter, but in the end we're counting on a TOSB to be a GOAT :lol

[Kidd K]

this isnt 05 anymore
you should look up manus stats in the first 2 rounds
and once they put sefolosha on him after the first 2 games ginobili was garbage except for game 5
and who is better then kevin martin off the ball
the only true offball players i can think of are rip hamilton and ray allen maybe klay thompson will take the next step this year and thats about it
and both of them were washed up years ago

harden game isnt gonna evolve to an all time great
he wont ever be a post up threat
and hell never be a good defender
and the anti flopping rules nuke his game

and its not even about kevin martin
he was just filler
jeremy lamb is basically another long talented shooter who can become better then kevin martin
ontop of another 2 future lottery picks
okc is gonna have a starting lineup full of talented long athletic lottery picks
durant westbrook ibaka pj3 lamb +2 lottery pikcs

compared to the spurs whose only lottery pick is duncan then the rest are past the 20 range

You're overthinking the Manu thing. He just sucked balls @OKC. That's it. Look again at the stats. Great at home, sucked on the road. He was mediocre on the road @LAC the series before too. I think Manu had one good road game all playoffs, out of 7.

As for the off ball thing, that only matters if the guy with the ball is willing to pass. Durant and Westbrook combine for only 9 assists a game. They also consume half of OKC"s total offensive possessions (with a shot or a turnover) per game. And that was with Harden who shot better than both of them and has been playing with them for years. Think about it. Martin's PPG is going down quite a bit this year since he's playing with two ball hoggers.

Also, "2 lottery picks"? Seriously? Houston isn't going to lose games since they won't even get the picks. They're going to be over .500 and probably make the playoffs. Those picks are going to be in the ballpark of the 16-22 area. Not the lottery (besides the raptors pick)

[freetiago]

spurs system relies a lot on talent
its based of the big 3 ability to draw double teams and help defense and kick it out to the matt bonners

its why once okc started switching on pick and rolls the spurs crumbled
you need an elite player who can break down defenses to pass it out to the 3 point shooters
parker and ginobili couldnt consistently beat perkins/ibaka 1v1 and would get their shot blocked or force bad shots
duncan couldnt post up collison and score consistently and the team would go through rough stretches when pop kept calling 4 down

that was the identity switch pop talked about
okcs players could beat ours in 1v1 situations and draw help defense or multiple defenders and make easy passes to there role players and have them go off for games like 22/25 or whatever it was
all they were doing was driving it in and kicking it to someone underneath the rim for a dunk

houston will be a 9th seed again this year
jeremy lin isnt carrying a team in a stacked western conference to the playoffs
they will be good in time but not now
dallas is at best a 6 seed
collison+mayo cant take a team to the playoffs either
it depends on an older dirk and hes already broken down before the season started
if he misses 15-20 games dallas is out of the playoffs

[lcroock]

Teams that pay $60M to a guy who can't be the best or 2nd best player on a championship contending team end up mediocre at best.


As for the Rockets, this is a very Rocket-esque move. Harden will be good enough to keep them from properly tanking but not good enough to actually contend. It looked like they were finally were going to get out of that 9th seed loop ... but there right back there.

Saving up assets to land a big fish and ending up with Harden is pretty funny. I mean, there's like a 1% chance he ends up being a superstar ... but that's about it. Maxed out, he's probably a third banana on a championship team. I don't even see him making the leap to No. 2.

That said, the contract they are giving him is far. He's worth $60M.

[therealtruth]

It's funny guys are saying Kevin Martin isn't that good when he tends to play well against us. It looks like Harden is following the Joe Johnson path. OKC now has two quality backup pg's in Lamb and Maynor while we're still trying to figure out our backup pg situation. We really need a trade to solve Bonner/Blair and land us a backup pg.

[racm]

It's funny guys are saying Kevin Martin isn't that good when he tends to play well against us. It looks like Harden is following the Joe Johnson path. OKC now has two quality backup pg's in Lamb and Maynor while we're still trying to figure out our backup pg situation. We really need a trade to solve Bonner/Blair and land us a backup pg.

Lamb's a swing, not a PG. I'd rather trade Bonner for a rebounding big or salary dump him so the Spurs can get Kenyon Martin (or whoever's available, heck even Ben Wallace would be nice)

[therealtruth]

That's just sad.

The Spurs are set. They don't need any trades. Diaw and Jackson will bring #5.

[venitian navigator]

For OKC is a bad trade for this season.
Like a lot of people said, Martin is obviously not at the level of Harden.
However, I really like the way Presti moves...
With this trade and considering OKC has quite always been able to recognize draft talent (a la Spurs school) he has basically given to his team the chance to improve again with young blood and at the same time he has opened playing space for these players.
I don't know if somebody remember that for quite the entire season, Perry and Lamb were considered both in the top ten poicks in the most deep draft in years.
Well, this year they'll both have the chance to play and became effective players for years to come...the potential is there.
Plus, Presti has probably obtained another lottery pick for next year ('cause probably Toronto is not gonna make the play offs).
Plus, the Dallas draft choice and another 2 round choice.
Plus, he has given to Houston the privilege to pay the contracts of three players who weren't going to play any sort of minute in the upcoming season.

So : maybe bad for this year, but the future looks really bright for this small market team, and bright for a lot of years to come...Presti has probably avoided the chance of a "small window" team.

[temujin]

Great move by Presti.
Harden was garbage in the finals and was supergarbage in the Olympics.
It's obvious that the Howard trade signals that Stern wants the West to be Lakers stuff this hear, no matter what.
Howard, Nash -finally- and that other jerk will be in the Finals again.
So OKC starts a minirebuilding for the next two years.
OKC's turn will come next year.

[szkorhetz]

Thunder Out!

[Bruno]

Speaking of this trade could impact Spurs and if there were some kind of truth behind the Spurs being interested in Patterson, this move increase Spurs odds of making that trade. Rockets might have some doubts on picking his 13-14 option and reduce even more their next summer cap space. Rockets have too lost Lamb in this trade and will need a good backup SG behind Harden which Neal could be.

[lmbebo]

Speaking of this trade could impact Spurs and if there were some kind of truth behind the Spurs being interested in Patterson, this move increase Spurs odds of making that trade. Rockets might have some doubts on picking his 13-14 option and reduce even more their next summer cap space. Rockets have too lost Lamb in this trade and will need a good backup SG behind Harden which Neal could be.


Hope your right!

[elemento]

I wish Bruno was right, but to me Patterson looks like their starting PF, at least for now. None of their PFs is more ready to contribute and start than Patterson.

They have Delfino to backup both SG/SF positions, they could keep Livingston to backup both guard positions, they just got Daequan Cook in the OKC deal. It's not like they're totally out of options.

To me the trade increased the odds to see Jajuan Johnson waived and want SA to take a look at him badly.

[racm]

Bruno, lmbebo: How about this trade (http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=9nvsvd6)?

[djohn2oo8]

Speaking of this trade could impact Spurs and if there were some kind of truth behind the Spurs being interested in Patterson, this move increase Spurs odds of making that trade. Rockets might have some doubts on picking his 13-14 option and reduce even more their next summer cap space. Rockets have too lost Lamb in this trade and will need a good backup SG behind Harden which Neal could be.
The Rockets probably wont pick it up

[szkorhetz]

I really thought, Harden would end up with us, but such is life. I really think, this trade will have the similar influence on the team, and fans what we experienced in Jax's departure after 03.

[djohn2oo8]

I wish Bruno was right, but to me Patterson looks like their starting PF, at least for now. None of their PFs is more ready to contribute and start than Patterson.

They have Delfino to backup both SG/SF positions, they could keep Livingston to backup both guard positions, they just got Daequan Cook in the OKC deal. It's not like they're totally out of options.

To me the trade increased the odds to see Jajuan Johnson waived and want SA to take a look at him badly.

Patterson is garbage. Either Terrance Jones or Donatas Motiejuanas will eventually be the starter.

[Ice009]

I really thought, Harden would end up with us, but such is life. I really think, this trade will have the similar influence on the team, and fans what we experienced in Jax's departure after 03.

WTF, how did you think Harden would end up with the Spurs?

[Bruno]

Bruno, lmbebo: How about this trade (http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=9nvsvd6)?

Rockets won't take Bonner with his contract. The trade that could make sense would be Neal and Blair for Patterson.

[Raven]

wow, didn't see that coming... generally mixed feelings, the only good part is that players got a huge slap in the face in the "i'll wait till i'm a rfa and then get the best deal possible" routine..

[timvp]

a lot of overrating of harden going on in here
people acting like had a hakeem series vs us
his best game was game 2 where the spurs beatdown the thunder and everyone was creaming themselves and making prediction of the spurs going undefeated

outside of hitting one big shot in game 5 he didnt have much of an effect on the series

18.5 points, 5.5 rebounds and 3.7 assists in 32 minutes per game counts as "an effect" in my book. 111 points on 73 shots is pretty insane, especially when he only had 11 turnovers for the entire series. Most damning for the Spurs in the series, Harden was able to out-Ginobili Ginobili. In the 139 minutes those two players were on the court at the same time, the Thunder outscored the Spurs by 27 points.

[CGD]

Wow, just seeing this. Thunder got great value and avoided all the drama which was to follow if they didn't extend him.not ideal to lose those points off the bench, but they'll be fine with Manor, lamb, and jones coming online.

[jesterbobman]

People who aren't thinking of Harden as a max guy are focusing too much on his low usage. He's among the most efficient players in the league, and is more than just a open shooter.

To help some people think of it, think of the Shooting guards in the league under 30, and the players with room to improve. If Harden isn't first amongst your Group, you have issues. He's way better than Eric Gordon, and Gordon got the max. Maybe people coming in the next few drafts turn out better, but the best youngish SG in the league has value.

Looking over the plus minus numbers on Harden also points out how good he is, The offense with him on the court is mental. RAPM has him as +4.6 on offense, which is better than all but Dirk, Manu, CP3 and Nash. He's good(Though, -1.6 defensively)

If you compare his +3 with Kevin martins -1.1, They'd be ~2.7 points worse off per game(at 32 minutes a game). That's a lot of wins off the table, that improvement from other guys will have to make up., or OKC will be looking at a lower seed in the playoffs. Losing 7 more games could knock them down 3 or 4 spots in the standings.

[CGD]

Speaking of this trade could impact Spurs and if there were some kind of truth behind the Spurs being interested in Patterson, this move increase Spurs odds of making that trade. Rockets might have some doubts on picking his 13-14 option and reduce even more their next summer cap space. Rockets have too lost Lamb in this trade and will need a good backup SG behind Harden which Neal could be.

Not Patterson, but Rockets will be pairing down roster.

https://twitter.com/Jonathan_Feigen/status/262585540254257153

JaJuan Johnson anyone?

[timvp]

The Spurs were supposedly interested in Brockman before they ended up with Blair in that draft. They're probably not still interested in him but you'd think the Spurs are in the market for a big of some sort.

[elemento]

I don't want another 6'7 BIG tbh. As i said before, I think SA should gamble on Jajuan, who is still young, has legit size and has good shot-blocking skills. But we still have to wait until we know who are the players waived by the Rockets. With the trade, they have 5 players to be waived.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Great deal for the Rockets. Martin didn't have much future with them and excluding the fillers it boils down to Lamb + picks for Harden, signed long-term. Absolute no-brainer. As for his 4 and 60, he's worth that.

Thunder probably got out of a difficult situation and got a reasonable deal but they're definitely weaker now. They'll really miss Harden's playmaking with the second unit and at the end of games when Westbrook starts chucking. They're much more one-dimensional and easier to predict and defend now.

[Spur|n|Austin]

But...but...they're a family...they hang out together. How could this be ???? :rolleyes

:lol

[CGD]

Damn they have lots of bigs -- You have to think they keep Asik, Motiejunas (http://shamsports.com/content/pages/playerProfiles/profileDisplay.jsp?id=1359), Morris, Patterson, and their rookie PF. They also just netted Cole Aldrich and Daequan Cook. There just isn't room for Jajuan. [That said if Cook is waived, I can Pop salivating at the thought of getting another stretch 4.]

Edit: Wrong guy, i had in mind another ex-Heat player.

[eric365]

This situation reminds me of the Tyson Chandler one.

He was not worth a max contract but the mavs couldn't defend their title properly without him
Even if the guy would be overpaid, you have to give yourself a chance to continu with the same core when you went to the finals

[jermaine]

THE THUNDER ARE STUPID AS SHIT. THEY GONE REGRET THAT MOVE. MARTIN IS OK AN ALL, BUT HES NO HARDEN!

[benefactor]

This seems to be a decent scenario for both teams. The Thunder will give this year away championship-wise to continue building for the future, while simultaneously allowing the Heat and the Lakers become weaker of the next few seasons. Two seasons from now they will be in position for multiple rings. The Rockets weren't luring anyone to Houston, so they did what they had to do with their assets to get a legit player. As others have said he will never be a number one, but there are not a lot of other options out there. Time will tell whether or not they will use this as a beginning to build for the future or they will continue to be...well...the Rockets.

[Juggity]

This situation reminds me of the Tyson Chandler one.

He was not worth a max contract but the mavs couldn't defend their title properly without him
Even if the guy would be overpaid, you have to give yourself a chance to continu with the same core when you went to the finals

The main difference is that Chandler is a dominant big man who didn't choke up in the finals. Harden is a crafty guard who looked absolutely awful, and possibly cost his team the series with poor play.

The Thunder are better off long term building around the young prospects they got, which will allow them to have more breathing room in terms of salary allocation/not have to worry about a prima donna shooting guard with an egotistical streak whose value is ridiculously inflated for what he is.

[Fireball]

Good that Harden is gone and it improves the Spurs chances against OKC ... but Martin always plays great against the Spurs ... I hate that guy even more than Harden

[Kidd K]

The main difference is that Chandler is a dominant big man who didn't choke up in the finals. Harden is a crafty guard who looked absolutely awful, and possibly cost his team the series with poor play.

The Thunder are better off long term building around the young prospects they got, which will allow them to have more breathing room in terms of salary allocation/not have to worry about a prima donna shooting guard with an egotistical streak whose value is ridiculously inflated for what he is.

Harden is underrated if you think that lowly of him. He's more valuble than Westbrook for most teams in the NBA. I bet if someone ever did a GM poll, "if you could add either player to your team right now, Westbrook or Harden, who would it be?", you would be surprised to see how many would pick James Harden. He fits in with more teams better. Gets less points, sure, but he also consumes far less team possessions. 16.8 PPG 3.7 APG, uses up 15.3 team possessions. Westbrook: 23.5 PPG 5.5 APG, eats up 26 team possessions.

6.8 more points 1.8 more assists, but kills 10.5 more team possessions in the process to get it. So basically 3 baskets and 2 assists in nearly 11 more possessions. That's the offensive difference. Harden's better than you think dude.

Speaking of prospects, Harden was one of those prospects. You can't claim the Thunder will be better off long term when we already know the package OKC had last year works and could get them deep into the playoffs. Their players haven't even peaked. If they simply kept James Harden, this year OKC would've had their best team yet.

Now their future is questionable. Those draft picks they got aren't going to be as good as you think. The teams who no longer get those draft picks aren't going to tank so OKC can get better draft position. They're going to play properly as there's no benefit to losing.

In a nutshell, OKC traded James Harden for a has-been and a roll of quarters. OKC will probably trade Kevin Martin mid-season too, unless they can convince him to take less money which I doubt will happen. Martin's worse than Harden and not any cheaper. It's a money saving move and that's it, not an upgrade move.

[benefactor]

Kidd K with his usual bads.

[024]

Yes, this helps the Spurs but the Spurs got another year older and another year slower. The Thunder will be better next year just by the experience they gained in the finals. Spurs will still lose to the Thunder in a seven game series.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

This is nice but I still can't see the Spurs getting past the Lakers.

[TD 21]

Speaking of this trade could impact Spurs and if there were some kind of truth behind the Spurs being interested in Patterson, this move increase Spurs odds of making that trade. Rockets might have some doubts on picking his 13-14 option and reduce even more their next summer cap space. Rockets have too lost Lamb in this trade and will need a good backup SG behind Harden which Neal could be.

I was thinking the same thing. elemento is right, depth wise they can get away with what they have in the back court, but Neal is a quality third guard and with a questionable starting PG and a play making SG, he'd fit in nicely in a three guard rotation.

As far as Johnson, I'd be shocked if he cleared waivers. Off the top, he makes sense for the Bobcats, Cavs, Suns and Kings. If he somehow clears, then it's a no brainer for the Spurs.

In terms of the trade, I'm a big Harden guy, but those who think this significantly alters the outlook of the West are getting carried away. It makes them worse, but not to the point where they're not the favorites. Sure, Martin can't play make or defend, but he'll be even more lethal as a clear cut third option. It does force Westbrook to make more decisions, but they do have Maynor back and they can play them together at times.

That being said, the Thunder probably didn't get enough. It depends on how good Lamb becomes and where the Raptors pick lands. But the Raptors look improved enough to the point where that pick probably lands late lottery and if it does, then what did they really get here? The Mavs pick is likely to land late teens and the Bobcats 2nd is guaranteed early 2nd round. Rather than being so focused on the depth of picks, the Thunder should have demanded the Rockets put their own 1st into it.

[phxspurfan]

Spurs catch a break! Woohoo! NBALP is now worth it for me :P

[dbreiden83080]

Spurs chances of getting to the finals just went up.. If Tony outplays old man Nash (He usually does) Spurs might have a shot at this thing..

[dbreiden83080]

We're still a long-shot, but:

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbn4c3ytWl1qd76hm.gif


:lol

[Solid D]

The thing that could be a concern is when Kevin...if healthy...sets his mind on getting to the FT line. He is extremely clever at that. Even moreso than Harden.. That added to KD's high numbers of FTA each and every game, can cause some heartburn and frustration in 4th quarters of games.

[ChuckD]

For Kevin Martin, Jeremy Lamb, and future draft considerations.

:lmao
I'm guessing that none of the players matter. HOU held a lottery pick from TOR. That's like the future considerations. That's a great pick.

[rascal]

Good long-term move, but this improves the Spurs' chances at winning it all.

Pop and RC better move for a decent 4, preferably including Bonner in the deal.

Spurs chances are not improved if they trot out the same frontline.

[elemento]

I was not laughing about what OKC got in the trade. Maybe I gave you the wrong idea. I actually think OKC got a decent value for him, especially considering they wouldn't match a max contract next season. We won't know who's the winner in this trade very soon. It depends on too much stuff. Harden's ability to be a go-to player, how bad/good Toronto season's end, How Martin plays in OKC , how Lamb turns out as a player, etc.

I laughed about the trade and whole idea of Harden getting a paycut because he loves OKC, he wants to play for a contender, he is BFF of Durant and Westbrook, bla bla bla.

In the end, it's always about money. I don't blame him for taking the money but I don't blame OKC either for not giving him a max extension. From what I've read, HOU can give Harden a 5-year max extension, so something around 5y/80m for Harden. Can you blame Presti ? Do you think Harden is worth this kind of money ?

He isn't a max player in my book.

[rascal]

I don't think anyone is saying OKC will suck - it's just that Harden is a better player than Martin. I don't think that is arguable. OKC did get some trade assets though (first round picks) so it will be interesting to see if they do anything else.

Don't forget about Lamb. A solid combo guard who has shown to be a clutch player and is young enough to get even better off the bench.

[rascal]

Spurs chances of getting to the finals just went up.. If Tony outplays old man Nash (He usually does) Spurs might have a shot at this thing..

Spurs have no shot. If they couldn't win last year when everything was lined up for them they are not winning this year bringing back the same team.

[pjjrfan]

I like this trade for OKC, it hurts them this year, maybe, but as a purely economic move the thunder came out on top big time. They still have a great team and now will get young talent throught he draft.

[ChuckD]

Thinking about it, OKC has just kicked the can down the road 2 or 3 years until the Laker core ages out. They got That kid in the draft and could get a pick as high as #5 overall in the next two years, #3 the next year, or #2 the year after that.

[Ice009]

Thinking about it, OKC has just kicked the can down the road 2 or 3 years until the Laker core ages out. They got That kid in the draft and could get a pick as high as #5 overall in the next two years, #3 the next year, or #2 the year after that.

What would it take for them to get picks that high?

[Chinook]

What would it take for them to get picks that high?

That's the protection Toronto's pick has placed on it. They'll get in next draft if it is between 4 and 14. If not, they'll get it in 2014 if it is between 4 and 14, and so forth until the pick falls in the specified range or the protection runs out. OKC won't get high picks every year.

Read here for more on the Toronto pick: http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--thunder-trade-james-harden-to-rockets-27481909.html

[dbreiden83080]

Spurs have no shot. If they couldn't win last year when everything was lined up for them they are not winning this year bringing back the same team.

Nobody watch the season this year.. It's already over...

[angelbelow]

This seems to be a decent scenario for both teams. The Thunder will give this year away championship-wise to continue building for the future, while simultaneously allowing the Heat and the Lakers become weaker of the next few seasons. Two seasons from now they will be in position for multiple rings. The Rockets weren't luring anyone to Houston, so they did what they had to do with their assets to get a legit player. As others have said he will never be a number one, but there are not a lot of other options out there. Time will tell whether or not they will use this as a beginning to build for the future or they will continue to be...well...the Rockets.

Sets a strong tone for Presti and the Thunder management as well. Not going to fuck around and mope over the demands of a player/agent.

[TD 21]

This seems to be a decent scenario for both teams. The Thunder will give this year away championship-wise to continue building for the future, while simultaneously allowing the Heat and the Lakers become weaker of the next few seasons. Two seasons from now they will be in position for multiple rings. The Rockets weren't luring anyone to Houston, so they did what they had to do with their assets to get a legit player. As others have said he will never be a number one, but there are not a lot of other options out there. Time will tell whether or not they will use this as a beginning to build for the future or they will continue to be...well...the Rockets.

:lol

[temujin]

This seems to be a decent scenario for both teams. The Thunder will give this year away championship-wise to continue building for the future, while simultaneously allowing the Heat and the Lakers become weaker of the next few seasons. Two seasons from now they will be in position for multiple rings. The Rockets weren't luring anyone to Houston, so they did what they had to do with their assets to get a legit player. As others have said he will never be a number one, but there are not a lot of other options out there. Time will tell whether or not they will use this as a beginning to build for the future or they will continue to be...well...the Rockets.

This.
Presti knows this is Lakers' year, in principle. His turn for a cahmpionship will come, no hurry, his marketable superstar is only 24.
Houston is a bad team, and Harden will marginally improve them.

[spurraider21]

This makes the Thunder a more desirable matchup. lets hope we can take the 1 seed again and have okc do the dirty work of taking out LA.

[benefactor]

:lol
So Kevin Martin is just as good as James Harden now? This move is an obvious step backwards as far as this year is concerned...not that it's surprising that you can't see that.

[dbreiden83080]

So Kevin Martin is just as good as James Harden now? This move is an obvious step backwards as far as this year is concerned...not that it's surprising that you can't see that.

It seemed like in every big situation from game 3 on Harden made shot after shot in the WCF. The finals he was a non-factor, had he shown up maybe OKC would have pushed that series to 6 or 7. OKC seemed to be building everything they had around that big 3, so this is very shocking and a step backwards..

[superbigtime]

Dream on, dreamer. :lol LA is going to maul the league.

[Creation88]

deal HELPS Lakers/Spurs.

[TD 21]

So Kevin Martin is just as good as James Harden now? This move is an obvious step backwards as far as this year is concerned...not that it's surprising that you can't see that.

Yeah, that's exactly what I said, genius. Of course it's a step backwards, but not enough so that they're "giving this year away championship-wise". It obviously lessens the chances, but to think they have no chance is flat out stupid. Martin isn't Harden, but people need to stop pretending as if he's a fringe player.

[DPG21920]

Would have been nice to sell Presti on Manu and what he could do for them short-term (championship aspirations alive) and how Tiago would help for Harden. Too bad we don't have any other assets as far as picks go...

[elemento]

I think some of you guys are selling Kevin Martin really low. He is not Harden, but he is not a scrub. He is a good starting SG and don't be surprised to see Martin having a nice year with OKC.

[benefactor]

Yeah, that's exactly what I said, genius. Of course it's a step backwards, but not enough so that they're "giving this year away championship-wise". It obviously lessens the chances, but to think they have no chance is flat out stupid. Martin isn't Harden, but people need to stop pretending as if he's a fringe player.
He's horrible. He's an injury prone chucker who plays no defense at all. He will either be hurt or a liability in the playoffs. Unless the Heat sustain a serious injury to one of their stars the Thunder aren't winning anything.

[benefactor]

:lol anyone thinking Kevin Fucking Martin will make a difference

[monkeypunk]

Kevin Martin is obviously a downgrade from Harden, especially defensively, but I think the key here is Lamb. Between Perry and Lamb, OKC has revamped their lineup with some young, hungry blood. OKC's vaunted chemistry would be fighting an uphill battle against Harden's Finals and Gold Medal ego all season where they now have guys that can and will give it their all and at a much, much cheaper price.

Martin is just a throw in to make the numbers work. If he can produce off the bench for them without the pressure of being the go to guy, all the better for OKC.

I actually think they could be a stronger team by the end of the season because of this swap.

[djohn2oo8]

:lol anyone thinking Kevin Fucking Martin will make a difference

This.

[djohn2oo8]

Yeah, that's exactly what I said, genius. Of course it's a step backwards, but not enough so that they're "giving this year away championship-wise". It obviously lessens the chances, but to think they have no chance is flat out stupid. Martin isn't Harden, but people need to stop pretending as if he's a fringe player.


I think some of you guys are selling Kevin Martin really low. He is not Harden, but he is not a scrub. He is a good starting SG and don't be surprised to see Martin having a nice year with OKC.


He's horrible. He's an injury prone chucker who plays no defense at all. He will either be hurt or a liability in the playoffs. Unless the Heat sustain a serious injury to one of their stars the Thunder aren't winning anything.

I'll say this about Martin. He's never been on a contending team, so no one really knows what his impact will be as of now, but he didn't do anything to make the Rockets better. He plays ZERO defense, relies on the refs to get free throws literally ALL game, can be difficult to coach, and is not clutch.

[TD 21]

He's horrible. He's an injury prone chucker who plays no defense at all. He will either be hurt or a liability in the playoffs. Unless the Heat sustain a serious injury to one of their stars the Thunder aren't winning anything.

:lol I'm sure he's "horrible". Bonner in the playoffs is horrible. Martin is a flawed player, no question, but he's not horrible. I'm not surprised you don't know the difference.

Stunningly, you did (almost) get one thing right and that is, unless the Heat sustain a serious injury to one of their stars the Thunder aren't winning anything (should have said championship; they can still win the West) . . . but I'd have said that before the trade. As far as the West goes, if you'd have said this makes the Lakers the clear favorites, fine (I don't agree, but whatever). But to act as if the Thunder have no chance is going overboard.

[djohn2oo8]

Also, Martin cannot finish at the rim like Harden.

[benefactor]

I did say championship dumbass. I'm done talking to you as you fucking suck at talking basketball, per your usual.

[TD 21]

I did say championship dumbass. I'm done talking to you as you fucking suck at talking basketball, per your usual.

You said "anything", fat boy. If by anything you meant championship, then you should have clarified. But last I checked, winning a conference and losing in the Finals is still doing better than 28 other teams.

What reason was there to think they'd have won before the trade? Internal improvement? It's not like the Heat, just from a continuity perspective, weren't going to improve internally, either (in addition to improving externally). Basically, they had to hope that Wade's knee was so damaged that he was no longer a top five player. Short of that (or a debilitating injury to James or Bosh), they weren't winning anyway.

[elemento]

I'll say this about Martin. ?He's never been on a contending team, so no one really knows what his impact will be as of now?, but he didn't do anything to make the Rockets better. He plays ZERO defense, relies on the refs to get free throws literally ALL game, can be difficult to coach, and is not clutch.

And that's exactly why people should not make assumptions about Martin's role in OKC. Nobody is saying he is better than Harden, but to say he won't do shit in OKC is reaching way too much.

Harden is better defensively, but he is not a great defender either and he relies on the refs to get FTs as much as Martin. And yeah, Harden is better than Martin finishing at the rim, but Martin has a much better jump-shot.

And we have yet to see how Harden plays as a go-to player and how this will affect his efficiency.

Bottom line, it's too early to say anything about both. I understand that as a HOU fan you're excited about getting Harden, but he also has flaws as any other player. You guys act like OKC lost a perfect player and got a Matt Bonner to replace him and that's not the case at all.

[benefactor]

You and shit posters like Kidd K are the reason I don't talk serious basketball up here anymore. This place is good for news, game recaps and basically nothing else. You can't even figure out what I said and didn't say and I'm not pointing it out for you.

[benefactor]

You have a serious attitude problem, but what should one expect from a soccer fag!
I stand affirmed yet again.

[TD 21]

You and shit posters like Kidd K are the reason I don't talk serious basketball up here anymore. This place is good for news, game recaps and basically nothing else. You can't even figure out what I said and didn't say and I'm not pointing it out for you.

So let me get this straight: This forum is no good for "serious basketball talk", but the NBA forum is? :lol

I know exactly what you said (you did say "anything", retard) and what you meant (and knew initially), I just wanted to point out how stupid it was by you to leave any doubt as to what you meant and to get a rise out of you, just for the heck of it.

Now, back to the question at hand: What reason was there to think they've have won the championship before the trade?

[benefactor]

Who said I talked serious basketball in the NBA forum?

I'm not answering shit for you, faggot. Piss off.

[slick'81]

dont c how it makes okc better now wish this trade happend last season

[TD 21]

Who said I talked serious basketball in the NBA forum?

I'm not answering shit for you, faggot. Piss off.

I thought you were "done talking basketball with me", what, 3, 4 posts ago? Yet here you are, still going, worked up as ever over nothing. :lol

[DPG21920]

Benefactor hacked by TPark?

[benefactor]

I didn't talk basketball in any of those posts, yet here you are, still being just as much of a dumbass as ever. :lol

[benefactor]

Benefactor hacked by TPark?
I didn't tell anyone to drink bleach, so no.

[DPG21920]

I think it was the piss off comment :lol

[TD 21]

I didn't talk basketball in any of those posts, yet here you are, still being just as much of a dumbass as ever. :lol

Actually, you said "I'm done talking to you" . . . yet here you are, still talking to me all these posts later. :lol

I win!

[99 Problems]

Key to this trade is Presti not signing a max contract.

[Dex]

Key to this trade is Presti not signing a max contract.

Yep; overall this is a good move for the Thunder. Does it hurt them now? Yes; Harden is currently better than Martin. Still, he wanted big money, and the Thunder weren't going to be able to give it to him. Instead, they got back a talented player, a good rookie prospect, and some draft picks to improve the team down the line. That's a pretty good haul to take now in lieu of giving up one possible year of competing (I'm not convinced they are totally out of mix) and watching Harden walk for nothing.

Still, as a Spurs fan, this excites me. Spurs didn't have an answer for Harden right now, and by the time those future prospects pan out for OKC, it probably won't affect the Spurs much anyways.

[rascal]

Would have been nice to sell Presti on Manu and what he could do for them short-term (championship aspirations alive) and how Tiago would help for Harden. Too bad we don't have any other assets as far as picks go...

Presti isn't stupid to get back Manu(old- on the decline) and Splitter for harden. He got a better deal from Houston(young talent and draft picks).

[DPG21920]

thats what I said. In the short term, there is no doubt Manu/Tiago is better than Martin/Lamb. Spurs simply didn't have the draft pick assets that a HOU did to work a deal.

[rascal]

Kevin Martin is obviously a downgrade from Harden, especially defensively, but I think the key here is Lamb. Between Perry and Lamb, OKC has revamped their lineup with some young, hungry blood. OKC's vaunted chemistry would be fighting an uphill battle against Harden's Finals and Gold Medal ego all season where they now have guys that can and will give it their all and at a much, much cheaper price.

Martin is just a throw in to make the numbers work. If he can produce off the bench for them without the pressure of being the go to guy, all the better for OKC.

I actually think they could be a stronger team by the end of the season because of this swap.

Agree. Martin and Lamb gives them more productive minutes during the course of the game overall than just Harden. I am not sold on harden as a star player. Sure he hit some big shots against the spurs but disappeared in the finals. Lamb hit some big clutch shots for UCONN during their title run a couple of years ago. He has upside potential to improve as a player .

[rascal]

thats what I said. In the short term, there is no doubt Manu/Tiago is better than Martin/Lamb. Spurs simply didn't have the draft pick assets that a HOU did to work a deal.

Even with the draft picks I doubt OK City would want that deal. Why would they want Manu when he is on the rapid decline? Manu just did not play very well in the WCF, surely did not look like any type of difference maker. Splitter was a no show in the WCF and is not regarded as highly across the league as he is to spur fans on this board.

[DPG21920]

Says who? Where have you heard other GM's or coaches talk down Tiago and his level of play/production? We will just have to disagree on whether or not someone looking for a one year rental would rather have Kevin Martin/Lamb or Manu/Tiago from a personnel perspective. Obviously when you include other assets such as draft picks, it becomes a much different convo.

[rascal]

Says who? Where have you heard other GM's or coaches talk down Tiago and his level of play/production? We will just have to disagree on whether or not someone looking for a one year rental would rather have Kevin Martin/Lamb or Manu/Tiago from a personnel perspective. Obviously when you include other assets such as draft picks, it becomes a much different convo.

Manu can't even log starters minutes anymore and no where near the minutes Harden can log. Tiago is overrated on Spurstalk. Pop doesn't even think he is as good as this board does.

Lamb was probably a deal breaker. Had the Rockets not included Lamb the deal is off.

[boutons_deux]

James Harden, the NBA and the Myth of Small Markets (http://www.thenation.com/blog/170889/james-harden-nba-and-myth-small-markets)In a trade that shocked the most snark-encrusted NBA observers, the Oklahoma City Thunder shipped its hellaciously talented, hirsute guard James Harden to the Houston Rockets for an assemblage of spare parts. Harden, the reigning sixth-man of the year, made up along with teammates Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook, the core of the defending Western conference champions. The Oklahoma City Thunder was the only legitimate team standing between the restocked Los Angeles Lakers and the NBA Finals. Perhaps age and chemistry will knock the Lakers aside, but absent that, their greatest threat just waved the white flag before opening day. This electric young team with title hopes just unilaterally disarmed because it claimed to be a poor small-market club unable to meet the contract demands of the 23-year-old star.

Immediately the cry went out across all media, old and new: small-market teams like Oklahoma City just can’t compete. As USA Today wrote (http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2012/10/28/james-harden-thunder-rockets-small-market-analysis/1663263/), “The deal cuts to the heart of the plight of small- and mid-market teams such as the Thunder. Can they return all of their top players? Are they willing to have a payroll that surpasses the luxury tax and are they willing to pay the tax when they go over?”
Thunder management played the part of damaged small market suitor, with General Manager Sam Presti saying, “We wanted to sign James to an extension, but at the end of the day, these situations have to work for all those involved. Our ownership group again showed their commitment to the organization with several significant offers.” He also spoke mournfully of their need to have a “sustainable” model for developing the team. As Howard Beck wrote (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/29/sports/basketball/oklahoma-citys-trade-of-james-harden-validates-david-sterns-design.html) in the New York Times, “A system that forces a small-market wonder to give up a star player—to a team in a much larger market, no less—seems cruel and counterproductive.”

This is all nonsense. If we want to understand why the hideous Harden trade took place, we need to understand the politics and priorities of today’s NBA. We need to understand that the Thunder are small-market by choice because small-markets can mean big profits. It’s a business model, not a tragic geographical handicap.

First, we need to remember how the Thunder came into existence in 2008 because in this case, past has certainly proven to be prologue. In full collusion with David Stern (http://www.yardbarker.com/blog/tmgsportsblog/article/an_interview_with_sonicsgate_director_jason_reid/11004629), Clay Bennett bought the Seattle Supersonics in 2006 and moved them to his hometown of Oklahoma City. Stern recruited Bennett, a former member of the NBA’s Board of Governors, to make this move. Why would David Stern, the man they call “Money.” choose to move a team from the fourteenth-largest television market to the forty-fifth? Why would he move a team to a place with one-twelfth the per capita income? Simply, put, it’s because Oklahoma City offered hundreds of millions in corporate welfare and public revenue while Seattle did not. Using Seattle as an object lesson for any other fan base that would dare tell Stern not to feed at the public trough, was a bonus. As Bennett gushed to Stern in a private e-mail, “You are just one of my favorite people on earth.” It’s a love built on a passion for corporate welfare, a love so great that the NBA chose to think small.

The move to a “small market” has meant the best of both worlds for the swelling pockets of Clay Bennett. It has provided him with a publicly subsidized money-making machine—$35 million in profits last year according to ESPN—while also creating the illusion of scarcity. Pressure to spend can be deflected, as Presti did, onto the need for “sustainability” while prying eyes are dissuaded by anti-trust protections: protections that outrageously exist even with the infusion of public money. The blame then gets deflected onto Harden for not taking less money to stay in Oklahoma City. I have never understood how sportswriters can turn so much bile on players for trying to maximize their incredibly narrow earning windows while owners, who have inherited—or in Bennett’s case, married—generational wealth, are exempt from the same criticisms. Last year’s Stern engineered lockout, it should now be clear, wasn’t about small-market competitive balance but extracting wealth from the players and redistibuting it into the bank accounts of ownership.


While Harden is slammed and Presti cries the tears of the crocodile, Bennett gets to be the Bain Capital of owners: harvesting teams for profits and then throwing away their dried husks when profit margins are under any kind of threat. David Stern will retire in February 2014, but his legacy will be felt for decades to come, and it’s a legacy that has cultivated a coterie of owners that put fans and communities last. The Harden trade is just a symptom of the disease.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/170889/james-harden-nba-and-myth-small-markets#

NBA is a business, and business' basic objective is to sell the shittiest possible product for the highest possible price.

eg: the over-expanded, shitty NBA with many teams devoid of talent, 2000+ games/season of no interest whatsoever, while the owners rake in $100Ms in profits.

[theadmiral50]

I don't think this move helped the Spurs at all. I love the Spurs but they just keep getting older and older. It's getting sad.

[mudyez]

I guess the whole thing will backfire on OKC...

Not that they might really be that worse with Martin/Lamb instead of Harden and maybe they get something of value out of the picks too(making them a top4 team for several years nonetheless), but a team that was really respected for its loyality now has lost that tag...Players will remember that and there is no way Presti wanted it...
...B-Diddy-Sonic-Killer did it again!

[timtonymanu]

I don't think this move helped the Spurs at all. I love the Spurs but they just keep getting older and older. It's getting sad.

Older and older? I guess a core of Leonard, Green, Splitter, Neal, Mills, De Colo and Blair is older than a core of Bowen, Horry, Barry, Finley, and Oberto.

[Mel_13]

I'm surprised at the number of people that see this as a positive move for OKC. Especially those that criticized the Spurs for being "cheap".

[Maddog]

I'm surprised at the number of people that see this as a positive move for OKC. Especially those that criticized the Spurs for being "cheap".
The more I think about this deal the l look at it as a big gamble by OKC. First, they have to think that Westbrook will make a move forward and correct his shortcomings.
Second they have to hope that they will get lucky and end up with a couple of real Keepers in the picks. It's not a given- look at the players picked mid lottery- a lot stinkers and not a lot at Hardens level. The picks are great, but they are not proven talent.

[temujin]

I'm surprised at the number of people that see this as a positive move for OKC. Especially those that criticized the Spurs for being "cheap".

Sam Prestigiacomo just knows the Thunder won't get any FT out of a technical given to an opponent for staring at the bench in a G6 of a WCF, this year.
And Kobe won't be charged with an offensive foul while Artest drains a 3.
He is a smart man, and just knows how the world spins.

[TDMVPDPOY]

harden wanted a max deal

what did durant and westbrick got when they sign on? underneath max ?

[thunderfan]

Chiming in late here, but from my perspective (call it wishful thinking if you want) OKC is a better team after this trade. Sure, we all liked Harden. He is a great player. However, he's not THAT good - at least not in the sense that he was worth a max contract to OKC. I always said that Ibaka was more irreplaceable than Harden was. I was happy that we wrapped up Ibaka first. Martin goes about his offense differently than Harden, but Martin can flat SCORE. People forget that. After all, he has played for loser teams his whole career. Lamb will be a work in progress, but Martin in addition to Jones, plus a healthy Maynor back and what I believe we are seeing as a noticeably improved Ibaka on offense makes OKC a better team, I think.

[thunderfan]

harden wanted a max deal

what did durant and westbrick got when they sign on? underneath max ?

Westbrook and Ibaka both left money on the table. I can't say for sure with KD. It's known that both Westbrook and Ibaka could have demanded more money in the open market though. They wanted to stay in OKC. Harden twittled his thumbs after Presti specifically told him he was trading him in 1 HOUR - so now he can be the man in Houston I guess.

[Mel_13]

Westbrook and Ibaka both left money on the table. I can't say for sure with KD. It's known that both Westbrook and Ibaka could have demanded more money in the open market though. They wanted to stay in OKC. Harden twittled his thumbs after Presti specifically told him he was trading him in 1 HOUR - so now he can be the man in Houston I guess.

Check your facts.

Westbrook didn't leave a dime on the table and Harden didn't twiddle his thumbs. He turned down a lowball offer and now will get a deal from Houston for about 25 million more guaranteed dollars than the offer from OKC.

[thunderfan]

Check your facts.

Westbrook didn't leave a dime on the table and Harden didn't twiddle his thumbs. He turned down a lowball offer and now will get a deal from Houston for about 25 million more guaranteed dollars than the offer from OKC.

Chris Mannix of SI.com tweeted (https://twitter.com/#!/ChrisMannixSI/status/160068836815675393): “Westbrook agreed to the regular max, which guarantees him 25 percent of Thunder cap next season. He could have held out for the supermax.” Which would mean that Westbrook wouldn’t be hogging that extra five percent potentially, meaning he left some money on the table. Which means all that noise about Russell Westbrook being selfish and whatnot is totally bogus. He’s a team guy who wants to win and he proved it with this contract.
Sam Amick of SI.com says that Westbrook’s extension is locked at the 25 percent, meaning he won’t get the Rose bump regardless of his season. Which is absolutely huge. And does indeed mean Westbrook took less money to help the Thunder keep things together. Also, like Durant, he didn’t have an opt-out clause put in, meaning he’s in OKC as long as possible.

I suppose I can't say Harden twiddled his thumbs. He got more money. I don't blame the guy. It's his career, not mine, but he simply wasn't worth to OKC what he's going to get in Houston.

[Mel_13]

Chris Mannix of SI.com tweeted (https://twitter.com/#!/ChrisMannixSI/status/160068836815675393): “Westbrook agreed to the regular max, which guarantees him 25 percent of Thunder cap next season. He could have held out for the supermax.” Which would mean that Westbrook wouldn’t be hogging that extra five percent potentially, meaning he left some money on the table. Which means all that noise about Russell Westbrook being selfish and whatnot is totally bogus. He’s a team guy who wants to win and he proved it with this contract.
Sam Amick of SI.com says that Westbrook’s extension is locked at the 25 percent, meaning he won’t get the Rose bump regardless of his season. Which is absolutely huge. And does indeed mean Westbrook took less money to help the Thunder keep things together. Also, like Durant, he didn’t have an opt-out clause put in, meaning he’s in OKC as long as possible.

I suppose I can't say Harden twiddled his thumbs. He got more money. I don't blame the guy. It's his career, not mine, but he simply wasn't worth to OKC what he's going to get in Houston.

Westbrook had no leverage to get the extension that Rose got from Chicago. He (Westbrook) got a max 5yr/80M extension. If he played out his contract, there was not a single team in the NBA that could offer him a comparable deal to extension that he signed, let alone the deal that Rose received. He didn't leave a dime on the table.

OTOH, Harden was asking for a 4yr/60M extension. If he played out the season, there would be multiple teams that could offer him a comparable deal. Now that he's been traded to Houston, he can get a 5yr/78M extension from them.

Like I said, check your facts. OKC didn't trade Harden because of a 25M gap, they traded him over a gap of 1.75M/yr over a 4 year contract. If Harden wanted to insist on a 5yr deal from OKC, he would have had to play out his contract. He was willing to take the 4 yr deal to stay with the team.

[thunderfan]

OKC can't sign another 5 year max contract. They used it on Westbrook. A team is only allowed one 5 year max contract per CBA. KD is a 5 year max contract, but he was signed under the old CBA. I realize he isn't actually getting $25M more from Houston because that's a 5 year deal vs 4 he would get from OKC. I'm just saying the Presti has to draw a line in the sand somewhere and he did. Presti, as I've heard, does what he says he's going to do. When the guy tells you this is my final offer and you have an hour to accept, he means it. Harden isn't a max contract player to OKC. He's not worth the max in the context of who OKC has on their roster and who they've already extended. Harden was NOT willing to take a 4 year deal to stay with the team. If h was, he would've stopped eating his damn dinner and returned Presti's phone call. By Harden's admission, he was eating dinner when Presti called him to say he was traded. I think if my boss offered me $55M over 4 years and gave me an hour to take it and I really wanted to stay with that organization, I'd return his call.

[Mel_13]

Harden was NOT willing to take a 4 year deal to stay with the team.

Yes, he was. He was willing to sign for 4yrs/60M. OKC offered him 4 yr/53M.

And Harden could have received a 5yr deal from OKC in the summer of 2013. He was willing to take a shorter deal now.

[thunderfan]

Well, you're right. He would've taken the 4 year max. I've heard he was offered 54 or 55, but either way. I guess it was a poker match, I don't know. Ive heard opinions that Harden's agent perhaps told him...ah, James they're bluffing. They won't trade you over pocket change like that. Presti's not a bullshitter.....apparently. I wish Harden would've taken the offer, but I can appreciate the way Presti does business and I still think OKC is in a good position player wise and financially after the trade. To be honest, if I'm the GM of a team I certainly respect my personnel and everything, but at the end of the day, I'm calling the shots. I think these kids need to show a little respect for who they are dealing with. This wasn't a lowball offer. 1.75/year off the max? Come on. If I'm a GM, I'm not gonna go spewing BS and playing games with people - yeah, take it or I'm trading you in an hour. Ok, hours up...well, ok how about another hour then? Ok I'll up in another million. You get into a situation where you're just a jackass pansy who spews BS..and that's not who Presti is.

[silverblk mystix]

Chiming in late here, but from my perspective (call it wishful thinking if you want) OKC is a better team after this trade. Sure, we all liked Harden. He is a great player. However, he's not THAT good - at least not in the sense that he was worth a max contract to OKC. I always said that Ibaka was more irreplaceable than Harden was. I was happy that we wrapped up Ibaka first. Martin goes about his offense differently than Harden, but Martin can flat SCORE. People forget that. After all, he has played for loser teams his whole career. Lamb will be a work in progress, but Martin in addition to Jones, plus a healthy Maynor back and what I believe we are seeing as a noticeably improved Ibaka on offense makes OKC a better team, I think.


You are right about Martin - but he won't be able to score in the playoffs when he is in street-clothes on the bench due to injury.

[thunderfan]

You are right about Martin - but he won't be able to score in the playoffs when he is in street-clothes on the bench due to injury.

Got any stock market advice for me too? You seem to be able to foresee the future. Surely you're retired and independently wealthy given such a gift.

[Mel_13]

Well, you're right. He would've taken the 4 year max. I've heard he was offered 54 or 55, but either way. I guess it was a poker match, I don't know. Ive heard opinions that Harden's agent perhaps told him...ah, James they're bluffing. They won't trade you over pocket change like that. Presti's not a bullshitter.....apparently. I wish Harden would've taken the offer, but I can appreciate the way Presti does business and I still think OKC is in a good position player wise and financially after the trade.

Presti is playing the hand he's been dealt. There's no way he makes that trade if maximizing the team's championship chances is all he has to consider. OKC ownership, which is making money hand over fist, has decided that maximizing their championship chances wasn't worth the extra 2-3M per year it would have cost to lock up Harden long-term. Even given those constraints, I don't get the trade. Keep him this year and then do a sign and trade next summer. There would have been plenty of potential trade partners to choose from at that time.

[silverblk mystix]

Got any stock market advice for me too? You seem to be able to foresee the future. Surely you're retired and independently wealthy given such a gift.


lol...you are more right than you know actually...;)

[Brazil]

Mel regulating the fools per the course

[thunderfan]

lol...you are more right than you know actually...;)

Hey - more power to you then

[thunderfan]

Presti is playing the hand he's been dealt. There's no way he makes that trade if maximizing the team's championship chances is all he has to consider. OKC ownership, which is making money hand over fist, has decided that maximizing their championship chances wasn't worth the extra 2-3M per year it would have cost to lock up Harden long-term. Even given those constraints, I don't get the trade. Keep him this year and then do a sign and trade next summer. There would have been plenty of potential trade partners to choose from at that time.

Well, I don't know. We'll see how it plays out. I guess there's a reason he runs a successful NBA team and me and you just talk about it on internet message boards.

[Mel_13]

Well, I don't know. We'll see how it plays out. I guess there's a reason he runs a successful NBA team and me and you just talk about it on internet message boards.

Actually, we do know. Just read Presti's own quotes about Harden. This was a financial decision, not a basketball decision.

[thunderfan]

I get that. He wanted Harden. Otherwise he wouldn't have made him an offer. I think everyone would have rather kept Harden. The "I don't know" was more in reference to how this will all play out and whether or not it will work out for OKC in the next few years. It should be interesting.

[Mel_13]

True. Teams have overcome bad basketball decisions and won championships.

[ElNono]

sup Mel...

[Mel_13]

sup Mel...

Hey Nono. Glad to see that you appear to have survived Sandy well enough.

[ElNono]

Hey Nono. Glad to see that you appear to have survived Sandy well enough.

Yes, we're good here. Can't say the same for all folks in the area unfortunately. But at least things can only look up, right?

[thunderfan]

The buzz in OKC during the preseason, prior to the trade, was how noticeably more confident Serge Ibaka looked on the offensive end. I've argued many times on this board against people who called Ibaka's 11-11 game against SA a fluke. Completely out of the ordinary and a once in a year type of performance for sure, but not a fluke - not from a guy who was in the top tier in FG % in the NBA last season from that 16-20 ft range. Anyhow, I think you'll potentially see a more expanded role for Ibaka on offense this season and really see him start to come on strong offensively. He's expanded his jumpshot out to the corner 3 point area, which he hit at a good % during the preseason and I believe will show much improved low post scoring. While Martin can fill it up quickly on offense in place of Harden, he does lack the ability to do so deep in the paint and at the rim as Harden could often do. I think this is where an expanded role for Ibaka will come in as well as PJ3. Jones is arguably the most athletic player on OKC's roster - and that's saying a LOT. Given what Ibaka and Jones could bring, I think this can help makeup for Harden's absence - with time.

[ace3g]

Adrian Wojnarowski ‏@WojYahooNBA

James Harden has agreed to a 5 year, $80 million deal with Houston, source tells Y!

Adrian Wojnarowski ‏@WojYahooNBA

Harden has his full, 5-year maximum extension with Rockets. Deal will be signed shortly.

[Bruno]

This trade shows that Spurs are lucky to have an owner like Holt that was fine with going a little over the tax.

Another effect of this trade for Spurs is that Kevin Martin might become a nice free agent target for Spurs next summer if Manu retires. Thunder will face financial troubles to re-sign him.

[timvp]

Tbh, if I were a Thunder fan, I'd be pissed. You throw away a proven combination that was on the brink of a possible dynasty over a few pennies? Wow. Thunder fan has been spoiled so they don't really understand what's going on ... so I can't really blame them for being naive.

But you are fortunate to have a potential great young trio and you let a few million dollars get in the way? I would have a hard time forgiving the front office. Sure, on paper OKC looks like they'll be able to potentially recover but it's such a huge risk with what was at stake. Championship-level trios in the NBA are among the most valuable assets in all of sports. To basically opt to re-roll the dice after landing such a trio is somewhere between ballsy and insane.

[CGD]

Still a GREAT move by the Thunder under te circumstances considering they are locked to 3 massive long term deals as is. Ill take the cap space next summer and have faith that 1 of the many first round picks they'll have in the coming years become a survivable 3rd option. I also think people are sleeping on Martin. When he doesn't have to be the 1st option i think he's great.

[thunderfan]

Still a GREAT move by the Thunder under te circumstances considering they are locked to 3 massive long term deals as is. Ill take the cap space next summer and have faith that 1 of the many first round picks they'll have in the coming years become a survivable 3rd option. I also think people are sleeping on Martin. When he doesn't have to be the 1st option i think he's great.

Exactly my thoughts and players seem to love playing in OKC. Martin can be a nightmare for defenses and I think can thrive when he's not the first offensive option. By his own admission he's sick and tired of playing for losing teams. If he works out and gets a sniff of contending for a title I believe he will be ecstatic to sign on long term. You'll see less Perkins this year. Brooks will be playing a lot more small ball with some combinations that I think could completely fill the void left by the Harden trade.

[jesterbobman]

Martin is a good player, and the Thunder will still win a lot of games with him, and depending on where Toronto's pick falls, they might be OK. But Harden should be the best SG in the NBA in the next few years(Manu, Kobe, Wade getting older) and trading that for a good SG who's older than the core, not as good as Harden, and decreasing your chance at a title just seems stupid.

I get the situation that they were in with the tax and wanting flexibility(And Presti did fine if he got told there was a hard limit on salary), but max guys are such good value(By definition, Are Underpaid) and the were so close, it seems dumb to not keep him, when they'd be at the same point if they signed two fewer min contract guys and just rolled with Harden.

[Mugen]

harden w/ 37 pts and 14ast tonight.

[jon123spurs]

Wow what a debut for harden. Think OKC wants that trade back.

[Ice009]

lol has Kevin Martin ever had a game with that many assists?

Thunder will miss his play making abilities.

I'd have to say without watching the game, those numbers are some of the most impressive ever from someone who people weren't sure he deserved a max contract. Harden really came out and showed people that he very well could be worth a max contact.

Did anyone watch the game? Was he as impressive as those numbers indicated?

[spurraider21]

Harden with 37 points on 25 shots? Flip those numbers around for a Kobe statline

[NickiRasgo]

Rockets are just sending a message that he's worth for $80 Million (5 years) by playing him 44 mins. and Harden also sends a message that he is worth it.

[DAF86]

Manu 0.2 doing work, tbh.

[Sean Cagney]

He is a very good player, they will regret letting that talent go this year! It will show.

[thunderfan]

Harden will put up numbers. He's the KD of the Houston Rockets...only with less help surrounding him. I hope the guy does well. I think people who aren't real familiar with who OKC has now are making the mistake of thinking this is a simple Harden for Martin swap. They come to the conclusion (rightfully so) that Harden is the better player and thus OKC is going to be worse off now. It's really not a Harden for Martin swap here. It's not the OKC Thunder of last year with Martin in the game where Harden would have been. THe whole dynamic of the team has changed now. Martin is fully capable of filling the void Harden leaves offensively. Lineups will change, strategies will change, but the end results could very well be the same given the additions to the team. Some are saying it could be a blessing in disguise in that this will force Brooks to be more creative and change things up. He's been stubborn in the past with lineups, which frustrated many. Martin can and will score the points...but he won't be quite the playmaker Harden was. This is where Brooks has to adjust and improvise. Bottom line is - I don't think any of us can really knock Presti for any moves he's made just yet. His track record is pretty remarkable. Now is this one comes back to bite us, I'll curse it too, but I'm not quite ready to make my judgement. I like our chances for now.

[ducks]

westbrook is going to have to improve if thunder do anything

[emanueldavidginobili]

Only MJ Bird and Wade have ever had the startline Harden put up today, impressive debut, you can tell he's watched film of manu, I watched that whole game today and he honestly reminded me of Manu with his drives, passes and dribble moves

[therealtruth]

Manu could probably have done the same thing if he had left as a free agent for his own team. Instead he chose staying here over personal accolades.

[elemento]

Awesome game but it was against DET

I'm a believer when he does it against Miami, Boston or Chicago.

[Obstructed_View]

He looked like a max player in game one, and he and Lin looked like a killer backcourt, but I'm not convinced they weren't playing a CBA-caliber team. Good for him and the Rockets if they can keep it up.

[mountainballer]

Harden will put up numbers. He's the KD of the Houston Rockets...only with less help surrounding him. I hope the guy does well. I think people who aren't real familiar with who OKC has now are making the mistake of thinking this is a simple Harden for Martin swap. They come to the conclusion (rightfully so) that Harden is the better player and thus OKC is going to be worse off now. It's really not a Harden for Martin swap here. It's not the OKC Thunder of last year with Martin in the game where Harden would have been. THe whole dynamic of the team has changed now. Martin is fully capable of filling the void Harden leaves offensively. Lineups will change, strategies will change, but the end results could very well be the same given the additions to the team. Some are saying it could be a blessing in disguise in that this will force Brooks to be more creative and change things up. He's been stubborn in the past with lineups, which frustrated many. Martin can and will score the points...but he won't be quite the playmaker Harden was. This is where Brooks has to adjust and improvise. Bottom line is - I don't think any of us can really knock Presti for any moves he's made just yet. His track record is pretty remarkable. Now is this one comes back to bite us, I'll curse it too, but I'm not quite ready to make my judgement. I like our chances for now.

Presti is for sure a talented GM, but like many of the younger GMs he is probably a bit to decisive. till now he did the right moves and he did them quick. this might have made him a bit arrogant. some years ago Kevin Pritchard was the talk of the NBA. and some more years ago it was Colangelo. but at some point those guys started to make mistakes and blew up what they built before.
I think the Harden trade will go down as the turning point in Presti's career. don't get me wrong, I don't wish this for him. but this move will look very ugly in some months.
Westbrook will never be a championship PG, his limits will be even more on display whithout the playmaking of Harden. Kevin Martin will become what Richard Jefferson was for the Spurs. big expectations and you will soon find out that nice numbers on bad teams are a fluke. you will get some 12 PPG from him, along with horrible defense and no playmaking or passing or creating for others. sorry to say it that harsh, but I like your chance for now as well. b/c it just eliminated a contender for us.

[thunderfan]

Presti is for sure a talented GM, but like many of the younger GMs he is probably a bit to decisive. till now he did the right moves and he did them quick. this might have made him a bit arrogant. some years ago Kevin Pritchard was the talk of the NBA. and some more years ago it was Colangelo. but at some point those guys started to make mistakes and blew up what they built before.
I think the Harden trade will go down as the turning point in Presti's career. don't get me wrong, I don't wish this for him. but this move will look very ugly in some months.
Westbrook will never be a championship PG, his limits will be even more on display whithout the playmaking of Harden. Kevin Martin will become what Richard Jefferson was for the Spurs. big expectations and you will soon find out that nice numbers on bad teams are a fluke. you will get some 12 PPG from him, along with horrible defense and no playmaking or passing or creating for others. sorry to say it that harsh, but I like your chance for now as well. b/c it just eliminated a contender for us.

Only time will tell. Martin's a ballplayer. Yeah he played on crappy teams, but he surely has been the focus of opposing defenses his whole career given the fact that he has never played with anyone of much offensive power as a teammate an still put up anywhere from 18-24ppg. I don't know how you could call the numbers he put up for 8 years a fluke. His defenseI realize is not a strong suit, but McHale claims he's much improved so we'll see. Like I said, only time will tell, but I don't see how you could doubt his ability as an offensive scorer.

[Kidd K]

I still think this is going to be considered the worst trade in Thunder history for a long time. The facts are pretty much:

Harden was the one guy on their team who had the most potential to get better.

They already got to the Finals, and as they were growing, should've been even better this year.

There was no reason to have a flexible salary when you already have everything you need already on the team. You can add guys for MLEs or stock late in the draft. (Plus we all know they won't be signing any big free agents anyway).

There's literally no increase in team ability or potential whatsoever. The only positive the move had was that it saved money.

100% money decision. 0% basketball decision. Because the trade did not improve the team. The potential is also lower, not higher, even with Lamb and the two draft picks which won't be as good as people seem to think. Teams don't tank for you when they trade away their draft picks.



Tbh, if I were a Thunder fan, I'd be pissed. You throw away a proven combination that was on the brink of a possible dynasty over a few pennies? Wow. Thunder fan has been spoiled so they don't really understand what's going on ... so I can't really blame them for being naive.

But you are fortunate to have a potential great young trio and you let a few million dollars get in the way? I would have a hard time forgiving the front office. Sure, on paper OKC looks like they'll be able to potentially recover but it's such a huge risk with what was at stake. Championship-level trios in the NBA are among the most valuable assets in all of sports. To basically opt to re-roll the dice after landing such a trio is somewhere between ballsy and insane.

You don't know the half of it. Have you looked at the thunder forum? They're all in 100% agreement that it was a great decision, and even think Harden is a ballhog and a chucker.

. . .despite shooting more efficiently than Westbrook or Durant, and having a better FGA/AST ratio or PTS/AST ratio than either of those guys.

They think the trade is fantastic too, because they believe the teams who traded their draft picks away will tank for them so the Thunder can get a great pick out of it. lol. They also think K-Mart is an all star who will put up better numbers in OKC than he did playing for an annual loser and stat padding with almost no one else taking shots on the Rockets. They also think K-Mart is better than Harden.

Completely clueless. . .

[therealtruth]

As much as people downplaying Kevin Martin abilities he's pretty good when he plays against us. He averaged like 18 last season but I think like 25 against us. We don't really have any players that can defend him well. Our best wing defenders Green and Leonard are bad at handling guys who play of the ball as well as he does.

[Reeko_Htown]

Rockets fans accepting high fives now.

[timvp]

Man, I fall more in love with this trade as time passes. Putting more on Westchuck's plate is great news for the Spurs. Parker defends him as well as any player defends him in the NBA. On top of that, Westchuck is incapable of consistently making good decisions. It's just not going to happen. Don't get me wrong, the kid is a great player ... but he's going to make a lot of mistakes when he's asked to shoulder a huge load. And now without Harden, the Thunder have no alternative other than ask Westchuck to shoulder a huge load.

Harden was OKC's basketball IQ. Maybe they have enough raw talent to overcome losing him but that uncertainty opens the door back up for the Spurs.

Thank you, Sam Presti. :tu

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Presti is for sure a talented GM, but like many of the younger GMs he is probably a bit to decisive. till now he did the right moves and he did them quick. this might have made him a bit arrogant. some years ago Kevin Pritchard was the talk of the NBA. and some more years ago it was Colangelo. but at some point those guys started to make mistakes and blew up what they built before.
I think the Harden trade will go down as the turning point in Presti's career. don't get me wrong, I don't wish this for him. but this move will look very ugly in some months.
Westbrook will never be a championship PG, his limits will be even more on display whithout the playmaking of Harden. Kevin Martin will become what Richard Jefferson was for the Spurs. big expectations and you will soon find out that nice numbers on bad teams are a fluke. you will get some 12 PPG from him, along with horrible defense and no playmaking or passing or creating for others. sorry to say it that harsh, but I like your chance for now as well. b/c it just eliminated a contender for us.

Totally agree. Sam Presti is undoubtedly a very good GM and has done an amazing job at OKC, but he has been too trigger happy and sooner or later he'll start making mistakes, such as the Harden trade IMO. He has had a lot cap space, he's had a lot of high picks and all of his best players were on rookie contracts and these circumstances certainly make trades much easier, however, now that he'll have to handle a very different situation cap-wise this trigger happy mentality could be his downfall. That said, I'm sure he wasn't happy about the Harden trade, clearly being a financial and not a basketball one.

[racm]

His trigger-happy nature resulted in Kendrick Perkins receiving a big extension before he even suited up in a Thunder jersey - and giving Ibaka the big extension before James Harden.

[therealtruth]

Man, I fall more in love with this trade as time passes. Putting more on Westchuck's plate is great news for the Spurs. Parker defends him as well as any player defends him in the NBA. On top of that, Westchuck is incapable of consistently making good decisions. It's just not going to happen. Don't get me wrong, the kid is a great player ... but he's going to make a lot of mistakes when he's asked to shoulder a huge load. And now without Harden, the Thunder have no alternative other than ask Westchuck to shoulder a huge load.

Harden was OKC's basketball IQ. Maybe they have enough raw talent to overcome losing him but that uncertainty opens the door back up for the Spurs.

Thank you, Sam Presti. :tu

Don't forget Eric Maynor. Part of the reason Harden was able to break out more last season was they were missing Eric Maynor. He was their most natural point guard.

[da_suns_fan]

In the month of December, James Harden just averaged 27 points, 5.2 assists, 2 steals, shot almost 40% from three and got to the line 11 times per game.

Anyone else want to second guess that max contract?

[Seventyniner]

In the month of December, James Harden just averaged 27 points, 5.2 assists, 2 steals, shot almost 40% from three and got to the line 11 times per game.

Anyone else want to second guess that max contract?

Eventually the fans will get tired of foul-fests and the league will allow tighter defense. Then ref-dependent players like Durant, Melo, and Harden won't look nearly so good.

That said, trading for Harden was absolutely the right move for Houston.

[therealtruth]

His trigger-happy nature resulted in Kendrick Perkins receiving a big extension before he even suited up in a Thunder jersey - and giving Ibaka the big extension before James Harden.

Perkins helped them get by the Lakers so he served his purpose.

[vander]

thanks Presti :tu

[Mel_13]

The gift that keeps on giving.

[timtonymanu]

Lakers cruising through the West now.

Rofl