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timvp
11-21-2012, 02:25 PM
Since the San Antonio Spurs are only 11 games into their 2012-13 campaign, it’s still early to be drawing any statistical conclusions on an individual or team basis. The sample size is small -- not even 15% of a season -- and it’s apparent, painfully so at times, the Spurs and other teams around the NBA aren’t quite hitting on all cylinders yet.

However, one inescapable difference exists between this iteration of the Spurs and those of the recent past: defensive rebounding. Or, to be more specific, the complete and utter inability of the 2012-13 Spurs to rebound the basketball on the defensive end of the court at a tolerable level. Given the consistent dominance the Spurs have gotten accustomed to achieving in this very area, the shortcoming has stood out like a sore pinkie finger.

Heading into Wednesday night’s contest against the Boston Celtics, the Spurs are 23rd in the league in defensive rebounding percentage at 71.3%. In their last outing, San Antonio managed to grab only 63% of the available defensive boards in a 92-87 loss versus the Los Angeles Clippers.

The Spurs led the league in defensive rebounding percentage last season at 76%, though that stat alone doesn’t give justice to their perennial supremacy in recent times. Five of the 18 best defensive rebounding teams of all-time are Spurs squads of the past half-decade, including the best ever.

http://www.spurstalk.com/rebg1.png

To figure out the cause of the dramatic decline, the most logical starting point is to analyze the individual defensive rebounding percentages of each player. Since the Spurs have virtually the same cast as last season, the analytical process is rather straightforward.

http://www.spurstalk.com/rebg2.png

Eight of the 12 regulars have seen their individual defensive rebounding percentages drop. Most alarming is the precipitous dip by three of the team’s five bigmen. As it stands, Tiago Splitter, Boris Diaw and Matt Bonner are rebounding worse than the guards did last season. That realization alone illuminates a major source of the problem, which truthfully shouldn’t be much of a surprise for anyone who has watched the games thus far this season.

We could end the investigation there and point the finger at Splitter, Diaw and Bonner, while also hurling some blame at Danny Green and Manu Ginobili. It’s clear that those five players will need to rebound better for the Spurs to recapture their standing as an elite rebounding group on the defensive end. Nonetheless, let’s dig deeper in an effort to better pinpoint the root of the issue.

The following chart looks at the team defensive rebounding percentage while the specified player is on the court.

http://www.spurstalk.com/rebg3.png

Since the Spurs as a team are defensive rebounding 6.1% worse than last season, it’s rational that most ever player would be in the red. However, it is astounding how poorly the Spurs are rebounding with Bonner, Splitter or Diaw on the court. Sometimes bigmen can be helpful on the boards by boxing out and not necessarily pulling down individual rebounds (historically, Bonner fits in this category). But that’s not the case here.

(Let’s take a moment to praise DeJuan Blair. Again, it’s a small sample size, but I’ve criticized him regularly over the last couple seasons about his lack of defensive boards, so it’s only right that I commend him for his vastly improved play in this aspect.)

Though guards and swingmen can influence the rebounding stats to a degree, it’s typically up to the bigmen to control the backboard. With that in mind, the following chart contains the defensive rebounding percentage of the various possible bigmen pairings.

http://www.spurstalk.com/rebg4.png

What stands out the most is Blair’s strength across the board. If he is paired with anyone but Bonner, the Spurs are able to rebound at a very strong rate. And when paired with Bonner, Blair lifts Bonner to his best number.

The most worrisome revelation is the ineptness, to put it kindly, of the Splitter and Diaw combination. Grabbing only 57.4% of available defensive rebounds is ghastly and would certainly classify as a fatal flaw of this pairing if that number doesn’t radically improve. Considering that Splitter and Diaw have been playing together quite a bit lately as the bigman duo off the bench, it’s no wonder the Spurs have struggled to rebound so much.

Statistically speaking, the solutions to stop opponents from grabbing so many offensive rebounds are fairly clear. First of all, the Spurs need their perimeter players to rebound better (namely Ginobili and Green). Secondly, if Bonner doesn’t show some life on the boards, he’s simply not playable any longer. By every measurement, he’s been a total disaster on the defensive glass.

The next in line for blame is Splitter. And really, he’s probably the No. 1 culprit. Splitter is supposed to hold the fort while Duncan rests. Instead, the opposition has run roughshod over him. If he can’t at least return to last season’s form, the Spurs will have no choice other than to look for a new backup center. To put his frailty in perspective, San Antonio defensive rebounds at a better than league- average rate (73.5%) when he’s on the bench but drops to the worst rate in the entire league (66.9%) when he’s on the court. That’s especially poor since Splitter faces inferior competition coming off the bench.

Also, Diaw doesn’t escape responsibility for the slow start. While the team is rebounding at acceptable rates when he’s next to Duncan or Blair, Diaw needs to do more to help Splitter. Regardless of pairing, his individual rebounding has vast room for improvement.

And finally, Gregg Popovich has to be ready to make adjustments soon if progress isn’t made. One way or another, he’ll have to break up the Diaw and Splitter duo while also keeping Bonner on the sidelines. That’s a tricky proposition -- and very well may require a player being brought in via trade or free agency -- but the defensive rebounding problem will continue to result in otherwise avoidable losses until it’s properly resolved.

ace3g
11-21-2012, 02:27 PM
Pounding The Rock did a piece similar, read it earlier:

http://www.poundingtherock.com/2012/11/21/3672910/nba-tiago-splitter-spurs-defensive-rebounding-woes

timvp
11-21-2012, 02:50 PM
Pounding The Rock did a piece similar, read it earlier:

http://www.poundingtherock.com/2012/11/21/3672910/nba-tiago-splitter-spurs-defensive-rebounding-woes

Good write-up, although I'm not as quick to absolve Splitter of blame. The Spurs haven't rebounded well even when he's been next to TD, so there's something more at work than simply that no one is rebounding when Splitter is on the court. He has to better pick his spots regarding when and how to go for blocks. And really, most shotblockers are also quality rebounds, so it really shouldn't be an either-or situation.

I do agree that Diaw has to do a better job of recognizing who he's on the court with. When he's paired with Duncan, he can usually just box out and let Duncan do the dirty work. But when he's on the court with Splitter, that's not the case. Diaw has to actually *gasp* try to rebound when he doesn't have the luxury of a legendary bigman next to him.

Richie
11-21-2012, 03:54 PM
If I'm reading it correctly, I find your first table horribly flawed. If I'm right, it is number of the total defensive rebounds grabbed by that player from the total available? If that is the case, it's a pointless comparison unless minutes are taken in to account, for example Bonner is playing way, way less minutes so it's expected that he will grab a lower percentage of boards.

Also the small sample size for players with very low minutes is a factor.

The rest of the write up makes sense though, something clearly highlighted against the Clippers when Turiaf got a number of offensive boards in the 4th against Splitter and Bonner.

timvp
11-21-2012, 04:01 PM
If I'm reading it correctly, I find your first table horribly flawed. If I'm right, it is number of the total defensive rebounds grabbed by that player from the total available? If that is the case, it's a pointless comparison unless minutes are taken in to account, for example Bonner is playing way, way less minutes so it's expected that he will grab a lower percentage of boards.

Yeah, you're reading it incorrectly. Those are percentages. In other words, Bonner is grabbing 4% of available defensive rebounds while he's on the court.

Richie
11-21-2012, 04:18 PM
Yeah, you're reading it incorrectly. Those are percentages. In other words, Bonner is grabbing 4% of available defensive rebounds while he's on the court.

Yeah I realised that after once I reread your post after I had submitted, and I had already committed by then.

So Bonner has grabbed 3/75 possible rebounds this year in 85 minutes. Clearly an issue, but considering half those minutes came in two blowout games against Utah and Indiana I think the small sample size is making him look worse than he really is. But then again, we all know Bonner is a terrible rebounder so not much new here.

Splitter and Diaw are clearly the biggest worries as they are playing meaningful minutes and still struggling.

timvp
11-21-2012, 04:37 PM
^Good points regarding Bonner. Preseason stats are pretty worthless but Bonner only had two defensive rebounds in his last 30 minutes in the preseason ... so this may be a serious issue with Bonner. He's 33 and will turn 34 during the season. For someone as limited athletically as Bonner, losing even a little bit of athleticism could be devastating to his ability to rebound ... and he's about the age one should assume he'll begin to lose whatever athleticism he previously had.

As helpful as he is spacing the court on offense, Bonner can't be an option if he doesn't begin rebounding at least at his previous mediocre levels. The best hope is this is a small sample size fluke. We'll find out as the season progresses.

freetiago
11-21-2012, 04:49 PM
the ptr summed it up pretty well also
all the bad defenders funnel their men into splitter and he has to contest it
hes not a supreme athlete or that strong to where he can contest and get back and boxout and grab the board
hes also going out on the perimeter to defend more which means no one above 6'8 is near the basket and theyre not boxing out when they are

this can be fixed if diaw stops being passive and the guards do a better job
but pop is going small all the time so the guards can only do so much
best solution would be to get green/leonard more time with the bench and hopefully diaw wakes up
splitter also has to stay in the paint and play the odds and hope whoever hes guarding misses

timvp
11-21-2012, 04:56 PM
^Splitter talked about how he lost 15 pounds during the summer. IMO, I think that could be the leading issue right now. The opponents are able to just push him around much more than last year, which hurts him going for boards. If that's true, the hope is that Splitter can relearn how to hang in the paint without as much bulk.

Personally, like TD 21 said in another thread, I don't understand why Splitter decided to lose the weight in the first place . . .

ace3g
11-21-2012, 05:23 PM
^ maybe he felt the extra weight was causing him to have all those minor injuries

timvp
11-21-2012, 05:24 PM
^ maybe he felt the extra weight was causing him to have all those minor injuries

Great point. Makes sense. ace3g with goods, tbh.

Bruno
11-21-2012, 05:26 PM
Another reason for losing 15 pounds might be because Spurs wanted him to be more mobile to pair him with Duncan.

quentin_compson
11-21-2012, 05:26 PM
Good read, thanks.
As timvp said, just from watching the games it is clear already that Splitter and Diaw simply have not gotten their hands on a lot of boards so far this season. It rather fits both Diaw's overall passiveness and Splitter's tendency to play too soft, I'm afraid.

ace3g
11-21-2012, 05:31 PM
As much as I wished he didn't get injured as much and could do a few things better (rebound and finish at basket); Splitter does take a lot of contact to his back on both sides of the court. He is always taking odd shots to his back.

TD 21
11-21-2012, 05:44 PM
^ maybe he felt the extra weight was causing him to have all those minor injuries

I realize you're just trying to come up with an explanation for this and you might very well but right, but what "extra weight"? He was a string bean to begin with. If his listed weight is to be believed (and it did look about right), he was 240 last season. If, as timvp said, he lost 15 pounds, then he's 225 now. That's insane for any center, especially one who's not overly long/athletic/bouncy, doesn't have great lower body strength and isn't a great natural rebounder to begin with.

I'm not surprised by the team wide drop off. I was concerned about the rebounding last season (I even made a thread about it), particularly once Diaw was brought in and Blair was dropped from the rotation. Somehow, they more than held it together but it never sustainable over the long haul.

The bottom line is, no amount of creativity on Pop's part can solve the myriad of issues with this big rotation. The flat out have to make a trade to solve this longstanding problem or they'll be hard pressed to win more than a round in the playoffs.

Capt Bringdown
11-21-2012, 08:23 PM
Seems pretty simple to me, Duncan is the only reliable rebounding performer on the squad.

Splits
11-21-2012, 09:46 PM
Tonight's 41/42 against Boston should help those numbers, for Diaw and Splitter especially.

timvp
11-21-2012, 09:48 PM
Start thread about defensive rebounding problem.

Next game, Spurs don't give up an offensive rebound until the final minute.

Basketball is funny. :lol

Splits
11-21-2012, 09:50 PM
Start thread about defensive rebounding problem.

Next game, Spurs don't give up an offensive rebound until the final minute.

Basketball is funny. :lol

Either funny or Pop explained the same thing before the game. They looked determined to not give up offense boards tonight.

Can you start a thread about how poor we finish on the break?

therealtruth
11-22-2012, 12:58 AM
Hasn't Boston always been like one of the worst rebounding teams?

Obstructed_View
11-22-2012, 03:06 AM
If Pop reads Spurstalk, I'm glad he's reading LJ's posts. Clearly, like most people, he has me on ignore. :lol

jyra
11-22-2012, 11:15 AM
Hasn't Boston always been like one of the worst rebounding teams?

They rank dead last in Offensive Rebound Rate right now and by a healthy margin too:
http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/offReboundRate

The Celtics commentators also mentioned that Boston would frequently get back with all five guys to cover their transition defense. So there's not too much to take away from this game concerning the defensive rebounding.

JRHernandez88
11-22-2012, 12:49 PM
Man y'all boys are on point with the squad :corn::meeting:

ElNono
11-22-2012, 02:36 PM
Boston is an awful rebounding team, so I don't know that's a bar to compare.

While I agree that perimeter guys need to help, the main responsibility for rebounding is on the bigs.

Bonner, Diaw and Splitter all have fundamental problems with rebounding. From the lack of box out discipline (Diaw only does it when motivated, not the case lately), to poor hustle and the expectation the ball will land on their laps.

It's no surprise all 3 are soft players. You rarely can make those guys care enough to get down and dirty, which is a big part of rebounding. I don't think there's an easy solution to this without a change of personnel.

Spurs Brazil
11-23-2012, 10:32 PM
Another pathetic effort

Blair 15 minutes 2 rebs
Bonner 9 minutes 0rebs
Tiago 22 minutes 3 rebs
Diaw 22 minutes 2 rebs

Poor TD. He had 17 of the team 37 boards. Pacers had 19 offensive boards. Our bigs are really really soft

Brazil
11-23-2012, 11:04 PM
Another pathetic effort

Blair 15 minutes 2 rebs
Bonner 9 minutes 0rebs
Tiago 22 minutes 3 rebs
Diaw 22 minutes 2 rebs

Poor TD. He had 17 of the team 37 boards. Pacers had 19 offensive boards. Our bigs are really really soft

fuckin' brazilian dude

TDMVPDPOY
11-25-2012, 09:25 AM
contract year for a few players, yet they dont bother rebounding...whatever happen to statpadding..

BackHome
11-25-2012, 02:39 PM
haha Yah your right if your in contract year you should be even going after your owns players rebounds. The bottom line is that Splitter is not very good and Diaw plays like a PG midget. To me I would roll the dice and try and do a trade and throw out everyone names excepts..Timmy/Manu/Kawhi/Tony. I would even trade Manu but he has done so much for us that we have to keep him and I understand that.

Spurs Brazil
11-25-2012, 04:01 PM
Raptors with 17 offense rebs

TD 41 minutes - 5rebs
Blair - 16 minutes - 4rebs
Bonner 6 minutes - 1 reb
Tiago 21 minutes - 5rebs
Diaw 34 minutes - 4 rebs

Props to the guards: Green with 9, Neal and Manu with 7, Tony with 6

TDMVPDPOY
11-25-2012, 04:05 PM
Raptors with 17 offense rebs

TD 41 minutes - 5rebs
Blair - 16 minutes - 4rebs
Bonner 6 minutes - 1 reb
Tiago 21 minutes - 5rebs
Diaw 34 minutes - 4 rebs

Props to the guards: Green with 9, Neal and Manu with 7, Tony with 6

duncans first 4 rebs came in the 1st quarter, the 5th reb came in the 3rd quarter...fkn pathetic team performance on the boards tonight, no fkn effort at all...guys just standing there hoping the ball would drop into their hands....

jjktkk
11-25-2012, 04:12 PM
duncans first 4 rebs came in the 1st quarter, the 5th reb came in the 3rd quarter...fkn pathetic team performance on the boards tonight, no fkn effort at all...guys just standing there hoping the ball would drop into their hands....

Yet they won, so you should move on and think about some more quality threads to start.

TDMVPDPOY
11-25-2012, 04:19 PM
Yet they won, so you should move on and think about some more quality threads to start.

ur an idiot u dont think we have a rebounding problem

freetiago
11-25-2012, 04:38 PM
spurs trade for ed davis/amir johnson/john henson/epke udoh/darrel arthur/dontas montejuenas/pattrick patterson
id take any one of those
spurs all have assests those teams could use
specifically shooters like neal

TDMVPDPOY
11-25-2012, 04:40 PM
seems like they dont bother jumping when going up against athletic teams :(

fkn ed davis destroyed us on the boards tonight....

Brazil
11-25-2012, 05:25 PM
w/o KL and Jax our rebounding issue is blatant... this is bad like really bad

Hoops Czar
11-25-2012, 07:05 PM
You can't make lemonade without lemons and you can't rebound the basketball without rebounders. The bad news is the Spurs DON'T have rebounders. However, the good news is the Spurs have Nando De Colo.

Bruno
12-16-2012, 05:23 PM
Bump.

After 11 games, when this thread was made, Spurs were 23rd in defensive rebounding with 71.3%.
Right now, after 25 games played, Spurs are 10th in defensive rebounding with 74%.

Even if they have been likely a little helped by facing relatively poor offensive rebounding teams like the Celtics, it looks like Spurs defensive rebounding issues have been solved. Kawhi being back should help Spurs getting better in that area.

polandprzem
12-16-2012, 05:44 PM
Good notice Bruno :tu

Accept for injuries it seems like the spurs community have good news starting the season.

Of course the big problem will always be a personnel that can lead to a championship /lack of froncourt or killer player once manu was/

Richie
12-16-2012, 05:46 PM
Hopefully with some healthy 3s we can get back to a Top 3 defensive rebounding team.

Manufan909
12-17-2012, 06:23 PM
Bump.

After 11 games, when this thread was made, Spurs were 23rd in defensive rebounding with 71.3%.
Right now, after 25 games played, Spurs are 10th in defensive rebounding with 74%.

Even if they have been likely a little helped by facing relatively poor offensive rebounding teams like the Celtics, it looks like Spurs defensive rebounding issues have been solved. Kawhi being back should help Spurs getting better in that area.

I wonder if any of the bigs have made a significant contribution to the rebounding increase... besides Bonner, of course. For a 3-4 game stretch there he was grabbing boards like crazy. Apparently his juevos have gone missing again, or maybe he's not getting any? Blair needs to throw one of his exes the Red Rockets way, but that'll add back some inches to his vertical.:downspin:

Mel_13
12-17-2012, 07:04 PM
I wonder if any of the bigs have made a significant contribution to the rebounding increase... besides Bonner, of course. For a 3-4 game stretch there he was grabbing boards like crazy. Apparently his juevos have gone missing again, or maybe he's not getting any? Blair needs to throw one of his exes the Red Rockets way, but that'll add back some inches to his vertical.:downspin:

Compared to their defensive rebounding rates in the first post:

Duncan and Diaw are about the same.

Blair has fallen off, and so have his minutes.

Splitter and Bonner have seen significant increases.

timvp
12-17-2012, 07:57 PM
I wonder if any of the bigs have made a significant contribution to the rebounding increase

Here's a quick update. The first chart shows improvements for team rebounding percentage when the player is on the court. The second chart is individual improvements in terms of defensive rebounding per 40 minutes. The first column is the first 12 games (when this thread was originally made), with the second column being the subsequent 13 games.

http://www.spurstalk.com/reup2.png

http://www.spurstalk.com/reup1.png

As you suggested, Bonner has improved his rebounding tremendously. Splitter has also stepped it up. Another key has been big improvements from the guards. On the other end of the spectrum, it's discouraging that Diaw seems to have regressed even more.