Why bankers rule the world

[Th'Pusher]

Some numbers around making baking a public utility:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/why-bankers-rule-the-world/5311833

[Nbadan]

By borrowing from their own publicly owned banks, governments could eliminate their interest burden altogether. This has been demonstrated elsewhere with stellar results, including in Canada, Australia, and Argentina among other countries.

In 2011, the US federal government paid US$454 billion in interest on the federal debt – nearly one-third the total $1,100 billion paid in personal income taxes that year. If the government had been borrowing directly from the Federal Reserve – which has the power to create credit on its books and now rebates its profits directly to the government – personal income taxes could have been cut by a third.

Borrowing from its own central bank interest-free might even allow a government to eliminate its national debt altogether. In Money and Sustainability: The Missing Link (at page 126), Bernard Lietaer and Christian Asperger, et al, cite the example of France.

The Treasury borrowed interest-free from the nationalized Banque de France from 1946 to 1973. The law then changed to forbid this practice, requiring the Treasury to borrow instead from the private sector. The authors include a chart showing what would have happened if the French government had continued to borrow interest-free versus what did happen. Rather than dropping from 21% to 8.6% of GDP, the debt shot up from 21% to 78% of GDP.

“No ‘spendthrift government’ can be blamed in this case,” write the authors. “Compound interest explains it all!”

Nationalize the bankers....why, that's socialism...


That is exactly the remedy to crush our outstanding debt though..

[Clipper Nation]

:lmao :lmao :lmao

Only a blind partisan sheep would ever think nationalized banks would be anything but a disaster.... first of all, considering how untrustworthy the government is with our tax dollars, why should they get to handle the rest of our money?

Second of all, the House of Representatives tried to run their own bank for a while and it failed miserably because all the crook politicians bounced all their checks and overdrew... again, why should we trust people who we know are unable to run a bank to handle our money?

The bankers' control over our economy actually comes through the Federal Reserve and special interest cronyism... it is completely enabled and encouraged by the federal gub'mint, on both sides of the aisle...

[Nbadan]

:lmao :lmao :lmao

Only a blind partisan sheep would ever think nationalized banks would be anything but a disaster.... first of all, considering how untrustworthy the government is with our tax dollars, why should they get to handle the rest of our money?

Second of all, the House of Representatives tried to run their own bank for a while and it failed miserably because all the crook politicians bounced all their checks and overdrew... again, why should we trust people who we know are unable to run a bank to handle our money?

Congress already delegates the money...so what is the difference really?

[Clipper Nation]

Yes, and Congress fucking sucks at delegating the money to begin with... the gub'mint also sucks at coining/printing the money, as we have a fiat currency....

You wouldn't keep your money in a privately-owned bank that is in bed with corrupt people and embroiled with overdrafting scandals and ineptitude.... why would you trust your money with the gub'mint?

[Nbadan]

Your talking in circles...why should we pay interest to borrow the money which we can just print?

[Clipper Nation]

Your talking in circles...why should we pay interest to borrow the money which we can just print?

You do realize "just printing" the money does nothing but debase our currency even more, right?

[Nbadan]

You do realize "just printing" the money does nothing but debase our currency even more, right?

really? So we have run away inflation and the dollar is worthless since the government has been printing money like crazy for years now....

[Clipper Nation]

really? So now we have run away inflation and the dollar is worthless since the government has been printing money like crazy for years now....

That's what we're headed towards unless we bring back sound-money principles..... hyperinflation doesn't come immediately, and it takes a while to develop, but once you hop on the fiat money train, failure is inevitable...

[Nbadan]

Which brings this all back to a point I made in another post ...why not just print 16 trillion dollars and pay off all our debt? There would be trillions more dollars to invest and our debt would be paid in full...

[Nbadan]

That's what we're headed towards unless we bring back sound-money principles..... hyperinflation doesn't come immediately, and it takes a while to develop, but once you hop on the fiat money train, failure is inevitable...

Have you checked out long term interest rates? I'm talking 30 year projections...You can't even beat inflation right now... it's a losing proposition...yet people keep lending the US credit hand over fist...

I wonder why?

[Clipper Nation]

Which brings this all back to a point I made in another post ...why not just print 16 trillion dollars and pay off all our debt? There would be trillions more dollars to invest and our debt would be paid in full...

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/2732/speechless.gif

[Nbadan]

A truly mind-numbing conundrum.....

:lol

[Clipper Nation]

Have you checked out long term interest rates? I'm talking 30 year projections...You can't even beat inflation right now... it's a losing proposition...yet people keep lending the US credit hand over fist...

I wonder why?
You clearly have no idea how interest rates work, because they're artificially manipulated by the Federal Reserve... it's basically price-fixing on a grand scale in a delusional effort to delay the hyperinflation that is the inevitable conclusion of a fiat money system, so to judge the health of our economy on interest rates is just plain dumb...

Rounds and rounds of price fixing and QE from the Fed have devalued our currency little by little, encouraged malinvestments, driven up the price of commodities, and hurt the purchasing power of the middle class... this is the biggest reason why our economy is in the shitter, and telling the federal government to spend even more of our tax money on owning and operating all the banks doesn't solve anything....

[Clipper Nation]

A truly mind-numbing conundrum.....

:lol
No, just laughable, as you don't seem to understand that "just printing money" without tangible wealth behind it is by definition inflationary, and destructive to our currency...

[ElNono]

Rule number 1: Never use Argentina as an example of economic prowess... they still hold the record for biggest debt default at $95 billion...

[Nbadan]

You clearly have no idea how interest rates work, because they're artificially manipulated by the Federal Reserve... it's basically price-fixing on a grand scale in a delusional effort to delay the hyperinflation that is the inevitable conclusion of a fiat money system, so to judge the health of our economy on interest rates is just plain dumb...

Well it's obviously one big conspiracy theory...or not.

[Nbadan]

Believe it or not, the federal deficit has fallen faster over the past three years than it has in any such stretch since demobilization from World War II.

While long-term deficit reduction is important and deficits remain very large by historical standards, the reality is that the government already has its foot on the brakes.

http://www.investors.com/image/WEBcaphill01_1120_345.gif

[Clipper Nation]

Well it's obviously one big conspiracy theory...or not.
Well, no, it's not a conspiracy theory, it's fractional reserve banking...

:lol 9/11 twoofer suddenly flip-flopping and trusting the gub'mint

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Rememba det time a certain poster went from being a Ron Paul supporter who complained about fractional banking to being a Mitt Romney supporter :lmao

[mavs>spurs]

So basically we should just borrow from ourselves at 0% interest which isn't really borrowing at all in essence it's just creating more dollars out of thin air. Sounds nice like having a money tree, but what's the stop the government from just printing up trillions whenever they feel like until the dollar isn't worth anything? Without the threat of interest these guys would just borrow infinite amounts and never pay it back because we owe it to ourselves anyway, the end result would be an ever expanding money supply and mass inflation. It would be a convenient way for the government to tax the people any time they wanted with an inflation tax, instead of raising the money through tax revenues they'd just make it up out of thin air any time they wanted. How could an adult with a functioning brain even think for a second that this would work? TBH by all means go create your own 3rd world banana republic and print the money all you want, but I don't wnat the government being able to debase my savings at any time they want. And we all know how responsible the government is and how much they care about us...it would be on the honor system.

[boutons_deux]

"Only a blind partisan sheep would ever think nationalized banks would be anything but a disaster"

The for-profit banks are ALREADY a disaster, in USA, Europe, Spain, Ireland, Iceland, and you and your ilk are obviously OK with it.

And there is absolutely no doubt there will be another horrible deep, long depression to repeat the current one (if we ever exit this one), and again, it will caused exclusively by the unregulated, unpoliced financial sector.

[Clipper Nation]

I'm not okay with crook private banksters, but I'm also not under the delusion that the same government who's in bed with the crooks would make for excellent bankers themselves....

[boutons_deux]

So for you, there's way to unfuck America from cluthches of the corrupt, thieving financial sector? There's no alternative to even try?

iow, ...

[Clipper Nation]

So for you, there's way to unfuck America from cluthches of the corrupt, thieving financial sector? There's no alternative to even try?

iow, ...
It's called sending the crooks to jail and voting out the politicians who enable them...

[boutons_deux]

the crooks aren't going to jail, except for handful of the 1000s of financial crooks. The finance sector crimes far exceed the enforcement of even weak regulations, and the House Repugs relentless defund the policing functions if they can't actually kill the regulations, as felony tax criminal Bishop Gecko proposed.

the system doesn't present (finance) candidates to the voters who would overthrow, or even mildely correct, the system in favor of the 99%.

[mavs>spurs]

the only way it would work is if the government was NOT allowed to borrow from this bank, if it wasn't there in the vaults then they wouldn't be able to spend it. giving the govt the ability to borrow at 0% isn't any better than allowing them to borrow at .25-2%..they'd just borrow infinite amounts until the currency is debased either way.

[Clipper Nation]

the system doesn't present (finance) candidates to the voters who would overthrow, or even mildely correct, the system in favor of the 99%.
Actually they do, but gullible partisan sheep such as yourself immediately write them off as extremists, isolationists, and nutjobs.... then you wonder why nothing changes but the letter next to the President's name (if even that)...

[boutons_deux]

"Actually they do"

name them

the "system" is 100% rigged, impregnable by the 1% against the 99%. and, as you say, it's all my fault! :lol gotdam, you right-wingers are naive, stupid shits.

[Clipper Nation]

So if the system is 100% rigged and unfixable, remind me again why you think that rigged unfixable system should be in charge of all the banks? :lol

[boutons_deux]

The state of ND has BND seems to working great, even if the banking sector blocked it from being even better.

A govt bank would be a non-profit bank, no dividends to pay, no multi $100Ms salaries and stock options to pay to top mgmt and board of directors.

A govt bank should also set up its own electronic card payments system in competition with VISA, charging only the cost of the transaction instead of the 70% margin VISA charges.

the 1% has convinced, distracted you right-wing fucktards that GOVT IS THE PROBLEM, so you don't place the blame where it really goes, with the 1%.

[mavs>spurs]

Yeah except the part where you're living in a fantasy world thinking that the fox guarding the henhouse would be ok if the fox were the government and we were the hens tbh. Government would just borrow more money out of thin air than ever before, end result being an inflation tax on you and me.

[boutons_deux]

There He Goes Again:

The govt is the Fox, NOT the 1% that has corrupted and operates the govt.

[Clipper Nation]

It's like talking to a brick wall, tbh... you clearly see the 1% cronyism in the government but your solution is to give them MORE control of our money.... you really don't see the problem with that logic?

[z0sa]

It's like talking to a brick wall, tbh... you clearly see the 1% cronyism in the government but your solution is to give them MORE control of our money.... you really don't see the problem with that logic?

Dude, it's Boutons.

[Clipper Nation]

Dude, it's Boutons.
True, but at least he's not spamming articles yet.... :lol

[boutons_deux]

so at least we agree, America is fucked and unfuckable.

the difference between the Repugs and Dems is that the feckless Dems won't unfuck it while the Repugs will fuck America deeper and harder.

[Clipper Nation]

B:lolut:lolns conceding the argument with his usual platitudes

[mavs>spurs]

the government IS the 1%...they enable the 1% to do their thing and are handsomely rewarded for doing so and in turn become part of the 1%. the government is the problem right now with their crony capitalism favoring the rich, the fact that you think giving more power to the government will fix the problem is pretty funny. name one group that became all powerful and didn't abuse that power in any way..good luck.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

America is so corrupt and controlled by corporations that nothing short of a violent uprising where the greedy corrupt people start to fear for their life will fix anything. The misconception is that Big government is what got us to this point and it didn't. Ronald Reagan and George Bush's small government got us to this point because they shrank government enough where corporations could start controlling it.

[mavs>spurs]

ummm big government is the ones who got bought off and enabled it, and continue to enable it. it takes 2 to tango imho. if government wasn't so big and intrusive they wouldn't have the authority to pass all of the bullshit they pass and subject us to on the daily. they should be powerless except for enforcing tax collection, national projects such as highways, and in times of war.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

ummm big government is the ones who got bought off and enabled it, and continue to enable it. it takes 2 to tango imho.

Why haven't Canada and Germany's government been bought off yet if big government is bad?

None of this was enabled prior to Ronald Reagan's mission to shrink government. You can revise history all you want, but America was at its best during the 50s and 60s when we had "big government" and tax rates as high as 90%. Small government that practices laissez-faire economics has been a proven failure throughout the history of man.

[Clipper Nation]

America is so corrupt and controlled by corporations that nothing short of a violent uprising where the greedy corrupt people start to fear for their life will fix anything. The misconception is that Big government is what got us to this point and it didn't. Ronald Reagan and George Bush's small government got us to this point because they shrank government enough where corporations could start controlling it.
:lmao

Small governments don't get involved in shit like Iran Contra, nor do they pump dollar after dollar into the welfare state like George H.W. did near the end of his presidency...

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

:lmao

Small governments don't get involved in shit like Iran Contra, nor do they pump dollar after dollar into the welfare state like George H.W. did near the end of his presidency...
I was referring to George Bush Jr. I wasn't talking about Sr., he barely made an impact and I agree was not a small government type guy.

How did Ronald Reagan's small government decisions like the complete deregulation of the finance industry work out?

[Clipper Nation]

What does regulation do when regulatory bodies can easily be filled with corporate/special interest cronies?

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

What does regulation do when regulatory bodies can easily be filled with corporate/special interest cronies?

1) I like how you keep avoiding how Ronald Reagan's deregulation directly led to the great recession

2) I'm not denying that Obama's form of "regulation" (i.e. giving the auto industry and finance industry a blowjob when they managed themselves into bankruptcy) sucks. I'm saying that regulation and high taxes are necessary if you want a country with a stable middle class and a strong economy.

[Clipper Nation]

Tbh, regulate through the justice system and send the crooks to jail... and stop encouraging malinvestments, risky behavior from the financial industry, and debasement of our currency through the Fed's fraud interest rates and money printing....

[boutons_deux]

B:lolut:lolns conceding the argument with his usual platitudes

I'm not conceding the argument at all. We need to try something, ANYTHING, to get some control and power back from the 1%.

ACA, as ugly as the for-profit health corps made it, is still a step forward for the 99%. That's why the Repugs and their ignorant fucktard base JUST HAVE TO HATE IT like it was smallpox. ACA is actually govt HELPING Americans, and that's 100% antithetical to the Repugs.

[mavs>spurs]

:lol dok likes to abide by these strict liberal talking points like "smaller govt = no regulation!" and go off on tangents from there like "see! we tried that before and it lead to this and this! therefore we must need big government!"

lol nobody is talking about deregulation. shrinking government control and influence over every little facet of our lives doesn't necessarily mean any deregulation at all. what good would come out of putting government in charge of the financial sector? you expect them to regulate themselves? they're the ones who turned a blind eye to the whole subprime thing that started this mess and arrested NO ONE because it was all more CRONY capitalism like i've been speaking of. certain people and companies are allowed to get away with murder while the competition isn't, it isn't free market at all. again, break your psychological conditioning, deregulation and smaller government are not synonymous terms at all. whenever i talk about shrinking government im talking about getting rid of the TSA and bogus surveillance and erosion of civil liberties, get rid of these 15 or so agencies dedicated to just spying and interfering in other countries foreign affairs. the government needs less influence in our lives, not more, and putting them in charge of banking fixes nothing. if by "deregulation" you mean less regulating of my underpants and what is contained therein at the airport then yeah, i'm for fucking deregulation.

[mavs>spurs]

Why haven't Canada and Germany's government been bought off yet if big government is bad?

there aren't the insane amounts of wealth in those countries as there are here, that's why. the more wealth and greed there is, the more opportunity for corruption. and you're insane if you think those countries live in some awesome utopia where everyone lives like kings and there's freedom and liberty for all. for instance, canadians who have money come here for treatment because their own shitty socialistic medicine that all you liberals ooh and ahhh over fucking sucks. the average canadian earns slightly less on average as well.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

:lol dok likes to abide by these strict liberal talking points like "smaller govt = no regulation!" and go off on tangents from there like "see! we tried that before and it lead to this and this! therefore we must need big government!"
It's not a tangent at all. You advocate for a type of government and economic policy (laissez-faire, free market, low taxes) that has historically failed time and time again.


lol nobody is talking about deregulation. shrinking government control and influence over every little facet of our lives doesn't necessarily mean any deregulation at all.
laissez-faire economics means no regulations and letting the market control itself.


what good would come out of putting government in charge of the financial sector?
The government being in control of the financial sector =/= the government regulating the financial sector


you expect them to regulate themselves?
According to laissez-faire philosophy, everyone regulates themselves!


they're the ones who turned a blind eye to the whole subprime thing that started this mess and arrested NO ONE
They turned a blind eye and did nothing. Sounds like what small government would do :tu


because it was all more CRONY capitalism like i've been speaking of. certain people and companies are allowed to get away with murder while the competition isn't, it isn't free market at all.
Large companies being able to chew the rest of the country up and spit it out is what the result of a free market economy has always been. History has countless examples of this.


deregulation and smaller government are not synonymous terms at all.
:lmao:lmao:lmao


whenever i talk about shrinking government im talking about getting rid of the TSA and bogus surveillance and erosion of civil liberties, get rid of these 15 or so agencies dedicated to just spying and interfering in other countries foreign affairs.
Now you're going off on a tangent. My original point had nothing to do with the TSA/NDAA/etc. and you know where I stand on those issues. You know when I say we need big government its addressing the economy/taxes/etc.


the government needs less influence in our lives, not more, and putting them in charge of banking fixes nothing. if by "deregulation" you mean less regulating of my underpants and what is contained therein at the airport then yeah, i'm for fucking deregulation.
Where did I say we should put them in charge of the banks? I think we should regulate the banks, not nationalize them.

What do you suggest we do to the banks? Let them run free like Reagan said we should.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

there aren't the insane amounts of wealth in those countries as there are here, that's why. the more wealth and greed there is, the more opportunity for corruption. and you're insane if you think those countries live in some awesome utopia where everyone lives like kings and there's freedom and liberty for all. for instance, canadians who have money come here for treatment because their own shitty socialistic medicine that all you liberals ooh and ahhh over fucking sucks. the average canadian earns slightly less on average as well.

There's A LOT more freedom and liberty in those countries than there is here. There is no War on Drugs or rampant military spending in Canada like there is here.

O, and the median Canadian income is higher than the median American income. I'm not sure what the average income is but average/mean income is a meaningless statistic. It doesn't account for how much wealth is concentrated at the top. If you put Bill Gates and 50,000 homeless people in a ballpark, the average person in that ball park is a millionaire.

[mavs>spurs]

There's A LOT more freedom and liberty in those countries than there is here. There is no War on Drugs or rampant military spending in Canada like there is here.

O, and the median Canadian income is higher than the median American income. I'm not sure what the average income is but average/mean income is a meaningless statistic. It doesn't account for how much wealth is concentrated at the top. If you put Bill Gates and 50,000 homeless people in a ballpark, the average person in that ball park is a millionaire.

I won't even bother responding to the totally frivolous and FALSE post above this one because of the annoying chumpdumper tactic you used, but I'll tackle this one because I can make you look dumb in about 2 seconds. Per wiki, US is ahead of canada on median household income. you talk out of your ass too much.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income

canada sucks bro, you love it so much why don't you move there? just don't get sick or your ass will be right back tbh.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I won't even bother responded to the totally frivolous and FALSE post above this one because of the annoying chumpdumper tactic you used, but I'll tackle this one because I can make you look dumb in about 2 seconds. Per wiki, US is ahead of canada on median household income. you talk out of your ass too much.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income

canada sucks bro, you love it so much why don't you move there? just don't get sick or your ass will be right back tbh.

:lmao stats from 2007
:lmao numbers from before the recession
:lmao you thinking that makes me look dumb while not responding to my other post because you can't

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

http://middleclasspoliticaleconomist.blogspot.com/2012/07/us-trails-at-least-15-oecd-countries-in.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/files/2012/07/medianwealth.jpg

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I won't even bother responding to the totally frivolous and FALSE post above this one because of the annoying chumpdumper tactic you used, but I'll tackle this one because I can make you look dumb in about 2 seconds. Per wiki, US is ahead of canada on median household income. you talk out of your ass too much.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income

canada sucks bro, you love it so much why don't you move there? just don't get sick or your ass will be right back tbh.
:lmao this is almost right up there with the tax brackets post. I wasn't talking out of my ass at all. Canada surpassed the US in median income some time in the last year. Anyone who reads the news knows this.

[Borat Sagyidev]

:lmao this is almost right up there with the tax brackets post. I wasn't talking out of my ass at all. Canada surpassed the US in median income some time in the last year. Anyone who reads the news knows this.

As a new Canadian resident (temp for now) I can confirm this is true, not only from a quantitative sense but from a qualitative sense. The population over here (Ottawa) tends to be much more affluent and content than in TX. Minnesota and Maine are the closest US states with similarities in my experience. Cost of living is higher in the populated areas, but just about everyone gets paid more and if you wish you can move far out from the city for cheap living.

As far as medicine and wait times, the longest I have waited so far in a brief sample of 3 months is half of an hour. The 2 doctors I have seen here were pretty attentive and knowledgable as well. Whereas in TX, it was more hit or miss, especially since many are going their to avoid litigation and medical board restrictions.

However, the U.S. does top Canada in murders, numbers of wars currently engaged in and personal bankruptcies due to health care costs.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

As a new Canadian resident (temp for now) I can confirm this is true, not only from a quantitative sense but from a qualitative sense. The population over here (Ottawa) tends to be much more affluent and content than in TX. Minnesota and Maine are the closest US states with similarities in my experience. Cost of living is higher in the populated areas, but just about everyone gets paid more and if you wish you can move far out from the city for cheap living.

As far as medicine and wait times, the longest I have waited so far in a brief sample of 3 months is half of an hour. The 2 doctors I have seen here were pretty attentive and knowledgable as well. Whereas in TX, it was more hit or miss, especially since many are going their to avoid litigation and medical board restrictions.

However, the U.S. does top Canada in murders, numbers of wars currently engaged in and personal bankruptcies due to health care costs.
Canada's health care system being so bad and having horrid wait times is for the most part anecdotal bullshit. The two people I know from Canada who go to school here say they get better healthcare in Canada and the whole idea that you have to wait months on end in Canada because of socialist medicare is a crock of shit.

Canada as it stands is a more prosperous country than America, but the "small government!" people will drum up whatever bullshit they can to deny this (like use income figures from 2007 :lmao).

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Tbh, regulate through the justice system and send the crooks to jail...
You can call them crooks but nothing they did was illegal so idk how you plan on throwing them in jail. After Reagan completely deregulate the finance industry during the 80s it was perfectly legal to do everything they did. If you don't like credit default swaps on subprime mortgages, then make them illegal.


and stop encouraging malinvestments, risky behavior from the financial industry
The finance industry didn't need encouragement to make risky investments, once Reagan deregulated them they engaged in risky behavior on their own. What specifically was encouraged? Be specific.


I'll ask again (even though you didn't answer and won't), how did Ronald Reagan's small government, laissez-faire decisions like the complete deregulation of the finance industry work out?

[boutons_deux]

St Ronnie the Diseased deregulated financial sector, and few years later, taxpayers lost $400B+ (in 2011 $) on the S&L scandal. Anybody remember any Repugs bitching about the S&L bailout and the Repug dereg that enabled it?

[Clipper Nation]

The finance industry didn't need encouragement to make risky investments, once Reagan deregulated them they engaged in risky behavior on their own. What specifically was encouraged? Be specific.
When the Fed artificially keeps interest rates low, it triggers a false boom period, in which people think there's enough savings and capital to allow for riskier, poorly-conceived projects to be successful when there really isn't....

At first, because it's cheap to borrow money, these risky projects look profitable on paper (when they wouldn't turn a profit with a natural interest rate)... money starts flowing into these "bubble" markets not because of consumer demand, but because the money supply is increasing, creating malinvestments...

Eventually, the market inevitably corrects itself, malinvestments are exposed, and people lose a lot of money... instead of letting the free market dictate the interest rates, the Federal Reserve's manipulation sends the wrong message to investors and creates an unstable boom-and-bust economy... this is the root cause of both the real estate bubble and its collapse, for example...


I'll ask again (even though you didn't answer and won't), how did Ronald Reagan's small government, laissez-faire decisions like the complete deregulation of the finance industry work out?
And yet, your question is flawed, because Reagan absolutely wasn't a small-government, laissez-faire president at all.... he tripled our national debt, and in his second term, the value of the dollar went through one of its worst declines in recent memory.... he slurped the GOP defense cronies with his expensive "Star Wars" project, and embarrassed himself with the Iran Contra scandal.... these aren't the actions of a small government....

As for the deregulation, you miss the point that large corporations, banksters, and crooks actually like regulation in practice, as it allows them to regulate away the competition through lobbying and crony capitalism...

[boutons_deux]

"because it's cheap to borrow money"

... many lenders don't want to lend because their interest returns are equally low. And when the lenders qualify the riskiness of the project, they see the risk/reward isn't worth it.

With higher interest rates, the risk/reward for lenders is more attractive.

The real scandal is when (mortgage) lenders make risky, poorly qualified loans, pocket the fee (higher the loan, higher the fee), then dump the mortgage on Wall St or on F&F. Solution (like in DK), lenders own/service the loan to maturity.

[Clipper Nation]

"because it's cheap to borrow money"

... many lenders don't want to lend because their interest returns are equally low.


Your beloved Fed seems to think that they're encouraging lending when they keep the interest rates low and make it cheap to borrow....

[boutons_deux]

Your beloved Fed seems to think that they're encouraging lending when they keep the interest rates low and make it cheap to borrow....

The Fed can go fuck itself.

It doesn't have a lot of tools and traction when it has lowered its rate effectively to zero and sometimes negative percent. Big corps are sitting on $Ts of cash to go along with their profits and extremely low income tax payments, so cash is not what they are starved for.

If the Fed and Treasury could deliver several $T into the (true) small businesses and consumers, then we'd make some PROGRESS.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

And yet, your question is flawed, because Reagan absolutely wasn't a small-government, laissez-faire president at all.... he tripled our national debt, and in his second term, the value of the dollar went through one of its worst declines in recent memory....
"Well, small government is perfect and always leads to a lower deficit because I said so even though history completely contradicts that, therefore, anyone who tripled the national deficit automatically can't be considered a small government president regardless of his small government policies!"

What country/civilization/whatever has had whatever you consider a small-government, laissez-faire system and from what timer period did they have it? Be specific.



he slurped the GOP defense cronies with his expensive "Star Wars" project, and embarrassed himself with the Iran Contra scandal.... these aren't the actions of a small government....
I'll give you this part, but his economic policies were totally small government laissez-faire policies.



As for the deregulation, you miss the point that large corporations, banksters, and crooks actually like regulation in practice, as it allows them to regulate away the competition through lobbying and crony capitalism...
So then Reagan's deregulations worked amirite? Why is it corporations lobby for deregulations and government agency shutdowns if all of this was true? Why do all the politicians who get money from the Koch Brothers want the EPA shut down? Why did Willard promise his cronies that he'd repeal Dodd-Frank and SOX?

lol your argument being based on the premise that government is always controlled by special interests and lobbyists

[Clipper Nation]

lol your argument being based on the premise that government is always controlled by special interests and lobbyists
The proof is in the pudding.... we have corporate shill lobbyists pushing corporate shill agendas and corporate shill regulatory laws on corporate shill politicians, while small businesses and average Americans get screwed over....

You keep asking about how laissez-faire economics have worked in the past, but you fail to acknowledge that we've hardly tried it in recent memory.... even our attempts at deregulation have never come with a serious attempt to end the debasement of our currency and the boom-and-bust price-fixing of the Fed, rendering it completely useless.... you can't tell the free market to operate freely when you're simultaneously handicapping it with phony interest rates and worthless fiat money...

Meanwhile, the Keynesian economics of the left and neocon right have done nothing but lead us into false bubbles, harsh market corrections, and screwjobs for the 99%...

[boutons_deux]

"government is always controlled by special interests and lobbyists"

which is true. Nothing happens in govt unless somebody is making or saving money.

Saw "Lincoln" last night.

While I read that Lincoln was lawyering for the railroads as they railroaded the people before he got into politics, it's really hard to imagine a Lincoln making an Emancipation Proclamation-type speech today, or fighting for a 13th-amendment type of law.

Even the progressive stuff For The People of the 1960s, ERA, affirmative action, Medicare/Medicaid is targeted by Repugs/VWRC for destruction, and they also want to destroy the hated FDR's PROGRESS of the 1930s, and they are well on their way to destroying those targets.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

The proof is in the pudding.... we have corporate shill lobbyists pushing corporate shill agendas and corporate shill regulatory laws on corporate shill politicians, while small businesses and average Americans get screwed over....
Why are big, evil socialist governments like Canada and Germany not controlled by corporations like America's government is when America's government is smaller? There is no proof that big government leads to corrupt government nor are the two remotely the same.


You keep asking about how laissez-faire economics have worked in the past, but you fail to acknowledge that we've hardly tried it in recent memory....
That probably has to do with the fact it led to the great depression the last time we did.


even our attempts at deregulation have never come with a serious attempt to end the debasement of our currency and the boom-and-bust price-fixing of the Fed, rendering it completely useless.... you can't tell the free market to operate freely when you're simultaneously handicapping it with phony interest rates and worthless fiat money...
So you're admitting the economy operated better before Reagan's deregulations? Glad we cleared that up.


Meanwhile, the Keynesian economics of the left and neocon right have done nothing but lead us into false bubbles, harsh market corrections, and screwjobs for the 99%...
Yeah, cutting taxes and deregulating the finance industry like Reagan did is totally Keynesian.

[Clipper Nation]

Why are big, evil socialist governments like Canada and Germany not controlled by corporations like America's government is when America's government is smaller? There is no proof that big government leads to corrupt government nor are the two remotely the same.
Actually, there's a fair amount of crony capitalism in the Canadian oil industry, as well as government-backed monopolies such as Bell Canada....



That probably has to do with the fact it led to the great depression the last time we did.
You mean the same depression that was truly ended by World War II? The New Deal actually prolonged it.... (http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/FDR-s-Policies-Prolonged-Depression-5409.aspx)



So you're admitting the economy operated better before Reagan's deregulations? Glad we cleared that up.
Because Reagan's deregulation was halfassed....


Yeah, cutting taxes and deregulating the finance industry like Reagan did is totally Keynesian.
Debasing our currency to chase false prosperity is extremely Keynesian....

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Actually, there's a fair amount of crony capitalism in the Canadian oil industry, as well as government-backed monopolies such as Bell Canada....
So then which country has the laissez-faire economy with no crony capitalism and limited control you desire? Just name one example of a country that had this policy and educate me on how well it worked.


You mean the same depression that was truly ended by World War II? The New Deal actually prolonged it.... (http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/FDR-s-Policies-Prolonged-Depression-5409.aspx)
1) So you don't deny laissez-faire economics led to the great depression?
2) How effective was Hoover's laissez-faire approach to the depression?


Because Reagan's deregulation was halfassed....
But they were still deregulations, they shoulda done something if small government is so good :confused:


Debasing our currency to chase false prosperity is extremely Keynesian....
So basically you label everything that negatively effected the economy as Keynesian and everything that positively effected the economy laissez-faire.

[Th'Pusher]

So then which country has the laissez-faire economy with no crony capitalism and limited control you desire? Just name one example of a country that had this policy and educate me on how well it worked.
There isn't one, which is telling in and of itself. When he brings up Hong Kong, make sure and rebut with the fact that Britain ultimately retained property rights deciding to whom land was granted.

[Agloco]

Which brings this all back to a point I made in another post ...why not just print 16 trillion dollars and pay off all our debt? There would be trillions more dollars to invest and our debt would be paid in full...


http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/2732/speechless.gif

:lol

Problem is, Dan actually believes his statement. He thinks that we can continue to shit in anyones cornflakes and they'll keep on gobbling it up. smh.

[mavs>spurs]

Which brings this all back to a point I made in another post ...why not just print 16 trillion dollars and pay off all our debt? There would be trillions more dollars to invest and our debt would be paid in full...

The problem with that is, the financial markets have this uncanny way of adjusting to stuff like that. Pump the market full of 16 trillion dollars, and the value of the dollar will adjust. The end result being that nobody wants to touch US dollars because they can be devalued at any time, nobody wants to invest in US treasuries because you'll lose half of your investment whenever they just print the money in order to pay you, your dollar won't be good for shit and we're all in worse shape than had we just kept our credibility and paid off the debt we owed.

[boutons_deux]

" just print 16 trillion dollars and pay off all our debt"

not required.

Print $4 or 5T into infrastructure (not lending to the financial sector to gamble with) and gets the consumption up and tax revenues flowing in.

[Clipper Nation]

m>s' point still stands with that non-solution tbh.... debasing our currency is morally wrong and harmful to our economic futurePERIOD

[boutons_deux]

"debasing our currency is morally wrong"

morals? in govt or finance? :lol

austerity now, cutting spending as the VRWC wants, is pure sociopathy and disregard for the 99%

[boutons_deux]

Goldman Sachs' Global Coup d'e tat

There’s one tie that binds Lucas Papademos in Greece, Henry Paulsen in the United States, and Mark Carney in the U.K., and that’s Goldman Sachs. All were former bankers and executives at the Wall Street giant, all assumed prominent positions of power, and all played a hand after the global financial meltdown of 2007-08, thus making sure Goldman Sachs weathered the storm and made significant profits in the process.

But that's just scratching the surface.

As Europe descends into an austerity-induced economic crisis, Goldman Sachs's people are managing the demise of the continent. As the British newspaper The Independent reported earlier this year (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/what-price-the-new-democracy-goldman-sachs-conquers-europe-6264091.html), the Conservative technocrats currently steering or who have steered post-crash fiscal policy in Greece, Germany, Italy, Belgium, France, and now the UK, all hail from Goldman Sachs. In fact, the head of the European Central Bank itself, Mario Draghi, was the former managing director of Goldman Sachs International.

And here in the United States, after Treasury Secretary and former Goldman CEO Henry Paulsen did his job in 2008 securing Goldman’s multi-billion dollar bailout, he was replaced in the new Obama administration with Tim Geithner who worked very closely with Goldman Sachs as head of the New York Fed and made sure Goldman received more than $14 billion (http://dailyreckoning.com/goldman-bets-against-the-assets-it-sold-to-aig/) from the bailout of failed insurance giant AIG.
What’s happening here goes back more than a decade.

In 2001, Goldman Sachs secretly helped Greece hide billions of dollars (http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/greek-debt-crisis-how-goldman-sachs-helped-greece-to-mask-its-true-debt-a-676634.html) through the use of complex financial instruments like credit default swaps. This allowed Greece to meet the baseline requirements (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps5JL268ZQE) to enter the Eurozone in the first place. But it also created a debt bubble that would later explode and bring about the current economic crisis that’s drowning the entire continent. But, always looking ahead, Goldman protected itself from this debt bubble by betting against Greek bonds, expecting that they would eventually fail.

Ironically, the man who headed up the Central Bank of Greece (http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/12996-goldman-sachs-global-coup-de-tat#Involvement_in_the_European_sovereign_debt_cri sis) while this deal was being arranged with Goldman was – drumroll please – Lucas Papademos.

Goldman made similar deals here in the United States, masking the true value of investments, then selling those worthless investments to customers while placing bets that those same investments would eventually fail. The most notorious example was the “Timberwolf” (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/28/us-goldmansachs-lawsuit-idUSTRE79R4JE20111028) deal, which brought down an Australian hedge fund, and which Goldman Sachs banksters emailed each other (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20003526-503544.html) about, bragging, “Boy, that Timberwolf was one shitty deal.”

This sort of behavior by Goldman helped inflate, and then eventually pop, the housing bubble in the United States. The shockwave then ran across the Atlantic, hitting Europe and turning Goldman’s debt-masking deal with Greece years earlier sour, thus deepening the crisis.

Why are the working people of Greece, Portugal, Spain, and Italy suffering under austerity and being asked to sacrifice their pensions, their wages, and their jobs when, after five years, it’s clear these policies are only making these nations’ debts even harder to pay off?


It’s because Goldman Sachs is sucking the last remaining wealth out of those nations to recoup whatever failed investments they made before the Crash.

Why have thousands of homeowners in the United States turned to suicide, domestic violence, and even mass murder when faced with home foreclosure, when a simple solution like re-writing mortgages, which FDR did successfully (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=lEHmdBPsN48) during the Great Depression, could put an end to the bloodshed and misery?

It’s because re-writing mortgages would force banks like Goldman Sachs to take a hit. And thanks to the game they’ve created, they actually make more money (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJmjf_gZOUs) when a home they own is foreclosed on.

Why, despite mountains of evidence, have banksters at Goldman Sachs and other Wall Street institutions not been thrown in jail for defrauding customers, manipulating LIBOR interest rates, and throwing thousands of Americans out of their homes illegally in a massive robo-signing scandal?

It’s because we have a two-tiered justice system in which those in power, like Goldman Sachs executives, get a slap on the wrist when they steal $50 billion, but people like you and me go to jail for stealing a 7-11 Slurpee.

Now does it make sense why Wall Street was bailed out and Main Street was sold out?

http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/12996-goldman-sachs-global-coup-de-tat