Game Thread: Spurs @ Raptors - Nov. 25, 2012 @ 12 PM CST

[DesignatedT]

Good job Manu.

[Juggity]

gino goin to choke these freebies

gfy

[Obstructed_View]

Tony tightroped out of bounds on that steal.

[timvp]

Bustnani for three. Guaranteed.

Only question is if the Spurs will get another shot or if it'll be at the buzzer.

[DPG21920]

Does this season remind anyone else of that Mavs season where they had a strong record built on an abnormal amount of close wins going their way?

[Obstructed_View]

Lowry has to be one of the most underrated clutch players

Yes, getting the ball stolen in a critical moment was immensely clutch.

[ElNono]

Ime Udoka in a suit never looked so good, tbh

[freetiago]

90% of sean marks commentary
"Spurs need a stop and a rebound"

[Amuseddaysleeper]

The crowd here want to kill the refs :lol

[DesignatedT]

Fully expect Toronto to get a wide open look from 3

[timvp]

amused with the live report goods.

[TDMVPDPOY]

fck was that

[DPG21920]

Det defense and Tim almost screwing up.

[Obstructed_View]

Does this season remind anyone else of that Mavs season where they had a strong record built on an abnormal amount of close wins going their way?

If the Spurs were fully healthy I'd be inclined to agree. We all know they aren't very good at the moment, but close wins are better than close losses. Mavfan thought their team was legit.

[timvp]

GET THE BALL TO MANU.

[Libri]

Green facked up on defense :/

[Obstructed_View]

The crowd here want to kill the refs :lol

They're mad because there's no hockey.

[loveforthegame]

Spurs doing everything they can to lose.

[timvp]

Ugh. Neal has a miss in him.

[Obstructed_View]

This is the only situation where Michael Finley would have been useful.

[baseline bum]

fvck

[ace3g]

Neal...

[TDMVPDPOY]

neal has been shit all night, he better drained these

[CitizenDwayne]

...wow.

[ElNono]

ay ay ay

[Obstructed_View]

Ugh. Neal has a miss in him.

You suck.

[DPG21920]

Gary has never been a clutch FT shooter. I am willing to bet he has one of the bigger % drops in FT's in clutch moments vs regular average.

[TE]

Lol

[CitizenDwayne]

Double OT, here we come

[timvp]

No three-pointers, tbh. No Bustnani game-winners.

Thx.

[Juggity]

At least he made 1

[loveforthegame]

smh if we lose this game.

[SpursRock20]

He would probably rather shoot threes than free throws

[ElNono]

we win here...

[TE]

Damn...expect a 3 pointer here

[Obstructed_View]

Put in Bonner, Pop.

[Libri]

uh oh, sucknani for the last shot?

[DBMethos]

LULZ

[ElNono]

Diaw rebounding per par

[Juggity]

mother of fuck

[AusSpur]

Garry Neal must be the worst clutch 89% free throw shooter in history!

[TDMVPDPOY]

choke a dick is what this team is good at

[TE]

Lollll

[ElNono]

give it to Tim/Manu... enough time to put up a prayer

[Obstructed_View]

Appropriate to give that up on an offensive board.

[timvp]

No defensive rebounding. Diaw pushed out of the way like a WNBA player.



Per par per par per par lamborghini mercy

[Manu-20]

FUCK Diaw use your fat ass for once and box out.

[BatManu20]

We suck

[bklynspursfan]

Can't rebound for shit.

[baseline bum]

TP gon win this shit to restore the honor of France after Diaw just embarrassed the nation

[Warlord23]

Diaw was extremely soft on that rebound opportunity

[TDMVPDPOY]

give it to duncan

[Libri]

end this now

[ElNono]

oh well

[BatManu20]

Run the Danny Green play we ran against the Mavs

[DPG21920]

:lol this execution.

[quentin_compson]

Lol, that game is hilariously bad.

[DBMethos]

LULZ x 2

[Obstructed_View]

Put in Bonner, Pop..

[phxspurfan]

can I get back to watching football yet

[TDMVPDPOY]

lol ginoboli...fkn fail

[Libri]

crappy inbound pass

[Raven]

overtime again :/

[polandprzem]

RIdicules




Neal gtdamnnit

[DBMethos]

The ghost of Roko Ukic continues to haunt the Spurs...

[Juggity]

well, now that Tim is playing double overtime you can chalk tomorrow up as "sit Tim" game

[loveforthegame]

:td

Not sure what's worse. Losing today or tomorrow.

[TDMVPDPOY]

fck this, play bonner and de colo since we dont have the will to come out with a win

[polandprzem]

I have no time for this overtimes

[boutons_deux]

Raps have a losing record at home, and Spurs pushed to 2 OT.

[SpursRock20]

Spurs are asleep out there.

[Spurs Brazil]

Diaw can't get a fucking board

[timvp]

Parker was going to be pretty open in another second. Should have probably called timeout after DeRozan didn't bite on the fake, tbh.

[DPG21920]

Spurs with the good first half tomorrow, tired legs second half book it goods.

[eric365]

WTF there was a last timeout to take instead of this bad pass

[Dex]

2OT is the perfect way to start a 4 in 5.

[ElNono]

Spurs should go straight to Florida from here, forfeit again WAS, tbh

[TDMVPDPOY]

run 4 down fkn clowns

[timvp]

Green FINALLY.

[baseline bum]

Lawler's Law niggas... SPURS WIN!

[Joyrider]

Good way to keep Duncan double double streak going, guys.

[timvp]

Diaw with rare dumb shot bads.

[Juggity]

:lol Lowry

[ElNono]

Lowry is maaaaaaad

[Amuseddaysleeper]

For what it's worth the raptors have the worst record in the league when it comes to games decided by 3 points or less

[Raven]

spurs finally taking over, this game is over.

[DPG21920]

Tim with the classic miss chip shot

[TDMVPDPOY]

dunk that shit

[Juggity]

Missed shot by duncan hurts a bit

[timvp]

Duncan proves he's still 36.

[ElNono]

Tim with the grandpa layup bads

[SpursRock20]

Raptors are falling down more than their mascot, tbh

[timvp]

Please score here.

[TDMVPDPOY]

duncan still feeling the effects of sweet chin music to the neck

[CitizenDwayne]

Really a spectacularly terrible performance by Bargnani. The Spurs owe him a debt of gratitude for making this close

[Warlord23]

Get Splitter in there ... Tim is tired as hell

[timvp]

TP clutch per par.

[timvp]

Really a spectacularly terrible performance by Bargnani. The Spurs owe him a debt of gratitude for making this close

This is typical Bustnani, tnbh.

[Juggity]

Really a spectacularly terrible performance by Bargnani. The Spurs owe him a debt of gratitude for making this close

Holy shit...didn't realize Barg was 1-17

[timvp]

DPG loves Bustnani's ability to get up shots. He must be wearing out a Vaseline bottle, tbh.

[Spurs Brazil]

Yes Tony!

[ElNono]

fuck diaw

[TDMVPDPOY]

timvp 27pts on 25shots, not acceptable

[timvp]

Bargnani with the goods, tbh.

[CitizenDwayne]

Of course.

[Trainwreck2100]

lol bustnani

[DPG21920]

Timvp is mad

[baseline bum]

This is typical Bustnani, tnbh.

LOL dumbasses wanting to trade Parker for Bustnani 2 years ago. :lol

[TDMVPDPOY]

fkn pathetic

[ElNono]

we don't want to win this

[Trainwreck2100]

lol calderon

[Juggity]

:lol calderon

[CitizenDwayne]

Holy shit

[SanDiegoSpursFan]

damn we run that play at least once a game

[Obstructed_View]

That was a short 5 seconds tbh.

[Trainwreck2100]

lol Barnani

[baseline bum]

lol bustnani

[TDMVPDPOY]

danny green hold onto that shit damn it

[timvp]

Bustnani made my stomach sink, tbh.






TP clutch per par.

[BatManu20]

Danny Green...

[Juggity]

TP!

[rayjayjohnson]

:lol lakers wanted CalderonCalderon

[Raven]

epic bargs

[Libri]

no need to play defense on Nani

[ElNono]

Manu lighting up a fire under Green's ass

[Mal]

Did I heard "MVP" ?

[timvp]

TP clutch per par.

[baseline bum]

Eat shit bustnani :lol

[SanDiegoSpursFan]

parker is an assassin

[TDMVPDPOY]

hero mode

[Libri]

it's over

[Juggity]

If TP missed those shots, I would have to castigate him

[Raven]

and that's the game.

[ElNono]

close this tim

[timvp]

hero mode

:lol Typical Spurs fan thought, tbh.

[CitizenDwayne]

Thank God.

[timvp]

hero mode

:lol Typical Spurs fan thought, tbh.

[Juggity]

Tim and Tony bringing it home

[romain.star]

timvp 27pts on 25shots, not acceptable

+1 :rolleyes

[baseline bum]

and that's the game.

Lawler's Law bro; when Green hit the three to go 100-97, it was the gamewinner tbh/

[ElNono]

here comes the "good three pointer when it doesn't matter" bustnami goods

[TDMVPDPOY]

:lol Typical Spurs fan thought, tbh.

i take god mode over hero mode, god mode has been quiet for fkn 3 quarters

[Spurs Brazil]

Tony Clutch Parker!

[ChumpDumper]

hero modeTony should've passed it to Leonard tbh.

[loveforthegame]

By 3 carrying the team to victory again.

[ElNono]

tbh, glad Neal is a basketball player and not an actor...

[timvp]

i take god mode over hero mode, god mode has been quiet for fkn 3 quarters

Three straight clutch shots followed by a clutch pass = TP hero mode.

Good one.

[Libri]

Bonner to play 40+ min tomorrow

[SanDiegoSpursFan]

lol resting duncan

[Raven]

a win is a win

[TDMVPDPOY]

Three straight clutch shots followed by a clutch pass = TP hero mode.

Good one.

on all those possessions duncan was open, pass it hero

[timvp]

Splitter with the block a shot that was missing anyways and knocking it out of bounds bads.

[TDMVPDPOY]

saving duncan for 3ot? fkn should be in there closing the 2nd quarter with whatever secs left on the clock

[timvp]

Please end this ish tbh.

[ChumpDumper]

on all those possessions duncan was open, pass it heroI don't know why you're complaining. You don't want the Spurs to win anyway.

[DPG21920]

"Sell high on TP time"

Spur fan

[Raven]

when the hell did timmy manage to score 26?

[quentin_compson]

TP missing FTs on purpose to be able to continue playing hero ball ...

[TE]

TDMVPDPOY :lol

[timvp]

Parker pulls out the win. Nobody cares. Per par.

[loveforthegame]

More dramatic than it needed to be but we'll take the win.

[Obstructed_View]

Splitter with the block a shot that was missing anyways and knocking it out of bounds bads.

Careful, you're showing.

[timtonymanu]

TDMVPDPOY bringing more bads :lol

[dave]

dwane casey is a straight up retard

[Paranoid Pop]

Burn the tape kind of win tbh.

[Chris]

^^ Raptors fan sighting

[justinandimcool]

Anyone other than Duane Casey on that bench and we lose in regulation. Good showing in OT though.

[EVAY]

+1 :rolleyes

Gee, could somebody help me out here with the percentages on the game for the spurs shooters? How many were at or above 50%? Tim at 11 of 21? No?
Manu at 5 of 15? No? Tony at 14 of 17? Oh, that IS above 50 % isn't it? And the only others at 50% or better were Diaw and Mills?

Have I got those figures right?

'Cause it seems the way some people are talking in here it seems like I must have them wrong.

[colargol]

:downspin:TP with more rebound than Tim and Tim having more assists:lol

[Bruno]

Bargnani: 2/19 FG

:lmao

[TDMVPDPOY]

this team is fkn bullshit when it comes to tim duncan, dude was all hot and shit in the first quarter, 2nd quarter nothin, 3rd quarter he finally gets his next rebound and couple of points, wtf do they keep on going away from him when 4 down was working.....

pop playin shitty rosters to close the quarters needs to be question also...

[Mal]

Raptors are retarded. Bargnani and DeRozan did everything in their power to give Spurs this win

[timvp]

Bargnani: 2/19 FG

:lmao


:cry But he's so great at shooting often! :cry






:lol @ the worst player in the league playing like the worst player in the league

[Paranoid Pop]

Should we trade for Bargnani, value is at an all time low? Bonner + Splitter for a taller Bonner?

[Raven]

Should we trade for Bargnani, value is at an all time low? Bonner + Splitter for a taller Bonner?

no.

[romain.star]

Gee, could somebody help me out here with the percentages on the game for the spurs shooters? How many were at or above 50%? Tim at 11 of 21? No?
Manu at 5 of 15? No? Tony at 14 of 17? Oh, that IS above 50 % isn't it? And the only others at 50% or better were Diaw and Mills?

Have I got those figures right?

'Cause it seems the way some people are talking in here it seems like I must have them wrong.

My +1 was sarcastic man.

This TDMVPDPOY is a clown

[DPG21920]

Timvp with some of the strangest hyperbole gloating ST has ever seen.

[JRHernandez88]

Great to get the W.

[ChumpDumper]

Timvp with some of the strangest hyperbole gloating ST has ever seen.DPG with the immediate counterhyperboles.

[Bruno]

Should we trade for Bargnani, value is at an all time low? Bonner + Splitter for a taller Bonner?

Nope, you don't trade for Bargnani with his contract. The only way to get him would be if he is amnestied.

[DPG21920]

DPG with the immediate counterhyperboles.

Explain.

[Mal]

Should we trade for Bargnani, value is at an all time low? Bonner + Splitter for a taller Bonner?

Oh no. He has like 3 or 4 more years with double digits salary

[timvp]

DPG with the immediate counterhyperboles.

:lol ChumpDumper with the game-winning three-pointer at the buzzer.

[TDMVPDPOY]

My +1 was sarcastic man.

This TDMVPDPOY is a clown

i might be a clown, but spurs gettin pushed to 2ot by a scrub team is bullshit, i dont give a shit if they have loss most of them games by 2pts, spurs shoudnt be pushed to the limits by a fodder team

this game was there for the taking, an easy W...but fkn pop and his shitty rotations during moments of the game was stupid that made this game longer.....longer enough for hero ball to be activated and duncan to be taken to school by one of the jonas brothers...

[DPG21920]

Pull out, Timvp. Don't want to get him prego.

[timvp]

DPG in full meltdown mode after Bustnani's busting.

[ChumpDumper]

Explain.You countered LJ's alleged hyperbole by saying his gloating was the strangest evah, which seems pretty hyperbolic in itself.

Understand?

IMO, it's kind of boilerplate trolling. Kind of easy to do with you.

[DPG21920]

You countered LJ's alleged hyperbole by saying his gloating was the strangest evah, which seems pretty hyperbolic in itself.

Understand?

IMO, it's kind of boilerplate trolling. Kind of easy to do with you.

I never said his gloating was the strangest ever. I said his version of hyperbole gloating was some of the strangest.

So no, I do not understand. Especially since it's hyperbole, and basically just making stuff up out of thin air and acting like I love Bargnani :lol.

I've argued about Bargnani simply on merit only - not because I was a super fan.

[jjktkk]

i might be a clown

[timvp]

Tbh, DPG is good people. He's just married to the idea that Bustnani is a valuable NBA player and refuses to move off of it, even when the non-trolling truth is that Andrea Bargnani has negative value.

[ChumpDumper]

I never said his gloating was the strangest ever. I said his version of hyperbole gloating was some of the strangest.Since it's boilerplate DPG trolling, your characterization is hyperbole.


So no, I do not understand. Especially since it's hyperbole, and basically just making stuff up out of thin air and acting like I love Bargnani :lol.

I've argued about Bargnani simply on merit only - not because I was a super fan.The boilerplate trolling seems to work just about every time. That is not hyperbole.

[TDMVPDPOY]

hey when duncan got kicked in the neck, what was his neck doing on the other end of the kick?

[DPG21920]

Since it's boilerplate DPG trolling, your characterization is hyperbole.

The boilerplate trolling seems to work just about every time. That is not hyperbole.

That does not make any sense.

[ChumpDumper]

That does not make any sense.I can't dumb it down any further for you.

No hyperbole.

[temujin]

You have just witnessed the average Bargnano's game with the Italian national team.

2-19 with one of the made shot coming from Diaw touching it.

[temujin]

The Bargnano guy doesn't show up for the Euro 13 qualifying games, and sure enough Italy wins easily the round and goes to the Euro.

[timvp]

I never said his gloating was the strangest ever. I said his version of hyperbole gloating was some of the strangest.

So no, I do not understand. Especially since it's hyperbole, and basically just making stuff up out of thin air and acting like I love Bargnani :lol.

I've argued about Bargnani simply on merit only - not because I was a super fan.

Come on, bro, you're the biggest Bustnani fan on the forum. You've argued against me for years, including earlier in this thread, saying Bustnani was a legit star worthy of his draft selection spot and latest contract.

Own it, tbh, or divorce the stance. We've all been wrong before, fwiw.

[DPG21920]

Come on, bro, you're the biggest Bustnani fan on the forum. You've argued against me for years, including earlier in this thread, saying Bustnani was a legit star worthy of his draft selection spot and latest contract.

Own it, tbh, or divorce the stance. We've all been wrong before, fwiw.

:lol That is just not true. I have always said and will continue to say that he is not even close to a number one pick. I did argue that in the context of that draft that he was not a bust and that it was just a weak draft. There is only 6 guys in that draft you could argue are better and he's a top 20 NBA scorer. He sucks at everything else, but he can score and while his FG% is bad this year, his overall eFG and True Shooting %'s aren't that bad.

I argued with you on that merit, not because I was a fan. I did think he had potential to be a 20PPG guy and argued that numerous times and he is right there. I never argued he was a superstar or worthy of his draft spot.

And while his contract is large, I don't see it as out of line with other top 20 scorers in the Nba even if we know it's empty.

[Obstructed_View]

I can't dumb it down any further for you.

You don't give yourself nearly enough credit.

[TDMVPDPOY]

And while his contract is large, I don't see it as out of line with other top 20 scorers in the Nba even if we know it's empty.

just like that other contract they gave to derozan....

i dont think he has any legitimate excuse to use why him as the raptors franchise player is going nowhere.....

[timvp]

Thank god DPG isn't the GM of the Spurs. Bustnani is worth his $50 million contract even though DPG admits that all he can do is put up empty scoring stats? Wow, tbh.

There are 100+ players in the world who can be a 20 ppg scorer when that player is allowed to play absolutely no defense, play big minutes, shoot as much as he wants without regard to percentages, never pass, never rebound ... basically never do anything other than try to score. Thinking a player is worth $50 million simply due to his ability to attempt shots is pretty damn delusional, tbh.

If Colangelo ever gets fired, the first order of business by the next GM will be to amnesty Bustnani.

[ChumpDumper]

You don't give yourself nearly enough credit.LJ trolls.

DPG bites.

[TDMVPDPOY]

holy shit

matt bonner did shit all this game, had no business being on the court to close out quarters or do anything with the spurs, yet one play where he put his body on the line to take a charge call...ends up with a +6 for the game, wtf..

[DPG21920]

Thank god DPG isn't the GM of the Spurs. Bustnani is worth his $50 million contract even though DPG admits that all he can do is put up empty scoring stats? Wow, tbh.

Misconstrued my point - the point is in this NBA landscape, a big man that is top 20 in scoring making 10M a year is not egregious. Do I think he's worth that or would I give him that? No. I'm saying that in the context of the league, his contract is not outrageous (that does not mean it's a good contract). It's the same argument I use about his draft spot. He's not a true top pick, but in the context of that draft he is easily a top 7 player of that draft. It was just a weak draft.


There are 100+ players in the world who can be a 20 ppg scorer when that player is allowed to play absolutely no defense, play big minutes, shoot as much as he wants without regard to percentages, never pass, never rebound ... basically never do anything other than try to score.

That's just simply not true. There is a reason why there are only a small percentage of guys who can score 20PPG. There are a lot of guys that get plenty of looks, don't play defense and can't score 20PPG. Again, you act like his entire career is marred by terrible percentages - again, that's simply not true. His career FT is elite, especially when compared to other big men. His 3 point percentage is very respectable as well (almost 37% and top 150 of all time). You can argue bigs shouldn't shoot so many 3's, but when you look at eFG and TS% he's not nearly as bad of a chucker as you make him out to be. He is still a chucker, but he's not some super innefficient offensive scrub. They guy has a unique set of offensive skills even if he sucks at everything else.



Thinking a player is worth $50 million simply due to his ability to attempt shots is pretty damn delusional, tbh.

If Colangelo ever gets fired, the first order of business by the next GM will be to amnesty Bustnani.

Context as explained above. Again, this is the hyperbole you use when arguing this with me. You try and come up with clever names like Fabbs, twist arguments about things I have never said about this and ignore what was really being argued. I never said Bargs is a great player or argued because I was a huge fan. I simply thought/think he has offensive talent especially for his size and that in the context of the league and the contracts handed out (see Spurs paying RJ money more than Bargs) it's not so terrible even if we all know those contracts are dumb. There's more to it.

[DPG21920]

LJ trolls.

DPG bites.

:lol Guy, you get baited about as much as anyone on this site. I'm not above being trolled but you're acting as if I am running around getting trolled all the time and that is funny to me.

[ChumpDumper]

:lol Guy, you get baited about as much as anyone on this site. I'm not above being trolled but you're acting as if I am running around getting trolled all the time and that is funny to me.You get trolled regularly by LJ.

This is not hyperbole.

You will also argue this point for the next day or two if I choose to keep it going.

Not hyperbole.

Guy.

[TE]

DPG just doesnt go down without a fight

[Obstructed_View]

He makes Gerald Wallace, Tyrus Thomas money. Hell, Nene and Emeka Okafor make 3 mil a year more than he does. It's not exactly Chris Dudley money.

[DPG21920]

Look guy, you seem to be confused - you are the one that will keep things going, I can quite easily stop, you however will reply to this and keep it going because I said so.

[DPG21920]

DPG just doesnt go down without a fight

I feel this debate has merit and make my points - what are your thoughts on Bargnani's contract, draft spot and skills?

[DPG21920]

He makes Gerald Wallace, Tyrus Thomas money. Hell, Nene and Emeka Okafor make 3 mil a year more than he does. It's not exactly Chris Dudley money.

I just find it funny that the "I am glad DPG was not the Spurs GM" line was used, when the Spurs actual GM paid Richard Jefferson more money per year than Bargnani :lol

[Brazil]

I feel this debate has merit and make my points - what are your thoughts on Bargnani's contract, draft spot and skills?

contract = beurk
draft spot = meh
skills = beurk

[ChumpDumper]

DPG just doesnt go down without a fightHe's not above trying to make it look like he can control his replies.

[benstanfield]

Tbh I didn't watch the game, tbh, but has Pop been using Diaw at 3? Tbh that seems like a good idea, since it sort of forces him to shoot more, tbh, but I;m not sure he has the quickness and tbh the tbh tbh tbh tbh tbh tbh tbh tbh tbh tbh tbh tbh tbh tbh tbh, to be honest

[timvp]

Misconstrued my point - the point is in this NBA landscape, a big man that is top 20 in scoring making 10M a year is not egregious. Do I think he's worth that or would I give him that? No. I'm saying that in the context of the league, his contract is not outrageous (that does not mean it's a good contract).So you say that Bustnani isn't worth his contract, you wouldn't have paid him that, that it's not a good contract, don't disagree with me that he'd get amnestied if Colangelo ever left, etc. ...... but you have a problem when I point out that he has negative value. Newsflash: A player who isn't worth his contract (like you've admitted to in numerous ways) has negative value.

Tbh, it's difficult to argue against you because we both know you agree with me, you just don't want to come out and say it. You beat around the bush and admit each of my points is correct but you don't want to connect the dots. Bottomline: The only thing Bustnani can do is score and it's very likely he gives back all those points via bad defense and non-existent playmaking.



There are a lot of guys that get plenty of looks, don't play defense and can't score 20PPG. Again, you act like his entire career is marred by terrible percentages - again, that's simply not true. Name names. Who else gets the eternal green light to shoot without doing anything else on the court yet can't match Bustnani's scoring?

Newsflash II: The NBA is a league of opportunity. Most everyone in the league is really damn good at basketball. If a team hitches their wagon to a random player, chances are good that the player will put up pretty stats. The key is to put up those stats in a non-empty manner, like you've admitted Bustnani does.

I mean seriously if a team built their offense around Gary Neal he'd average 20+ ppg. That wouldn't make him worth $50M, though.



They guy has a unique set of offensive skills even if he sucks at everything else.
I agree, he has a unique offensive skillset. I agree, he sucks at everything else. Thus, Emptystatnani is a below average basketball player signed to a huge deal.



Context as explained above. Again, this is the hyperbole you use when arguing this with me.

How is it hyperbole when we agree on everything? The only difference on what we're saying is you add the asterisk:

*":cry there are other bad contracts in the league :cry"*

That's it. A one-dimensional gunner who can only gun isn't worth $50M. We both know this. Yes, I know the RJ contract was stupid and there are other stupid contracts out there. But that doesn't change Bustnani is overpaid and is only regarded highly by those who mistakenly think PPG is the end-all, be-all of NBA stats.

[Brazil]

timvp going HAM on DPG :lol

[DPG21920]

So you say that Bustnani isn't worth his contract, you wouldn't have paid him that, that it's not a good contract, don't disagree with me that he'd get amnestied if Colangelo ever left, etc. ...... but you have a problem when I point out that he has negative value. Newsflash: A player who isn't worth his contract (like you've admitted to in numerous ways) has negative value.

I don't agree he would be amnestied if Colangelo ever left, but that argument is silly since it's purely hypothetical at this point. I don't think it's a completely awful contract either. It's not a good one, but not terrible in the context of the league and his skills. This is a league with very limited players getting big contracts. Offensive talent usually gets paid and he has it. I don't have a problem with you saying he has negative value - I just think it's funny you jab at me (I know you are half taking shots/trolling & half serious about Bargnani) thinking I love Bargnani. I just think you use hyperbole when you talk about how inefficient he is and how any random NBA player can score 20 PPG.


Tbh, it's difficult to argue against you because we both know you agree with me, you just don't want to come out and say it. You beat around the bush and admit each of my points is correct but you don't want to connect the dots. Bottomline: The only thing Bustnani can do is score and it's very likely he gives back all those points via bad defense and non-existent playmaking.

I only somewhat agree with you hence the numerous debates on the matter. I disagree that he is wildly overpaid based on his skills and the state of the league. I disagree he is a bust in the context of the draft in which he was taken. I disagree that he is some terrible chucker that is super inefficient and that anyone in the NBA can score 20 PPG. I don't disagree that a lot of guys are overpaid including guys by the Spurs FO so it shows you there is some reason why guys keep getting these contracts.

Bargnani had also shown a lot more high of a ceiling when playing well than a lot of guys in his pay range. His issue like most other guys in these types of convos is consistency. But he did improve as a low post defender (although he's regressed). The issue is he can't be your main guy and his GM/Team sucks. The key point is he's paid like a third option on a good team and I do believe with the right guys around him he could be worth that.



Name names. Who else gets the eternal green light to shoot without doing anything else on the court yet can't match Bustnani's scoring?

Newsflash II: The NBA is a league of opportunity. Most everyone in the league is really damn good at basketball. If a team hitches their wagon to a random player, chances are good that the player will put up pretty stats. The key is to put up those stats in a non-empty manner, like you've admitted Bustnani does.

I mean seriously if a team built their offense around Gary Neal he'd average 20+ ppg. That wouldn't make him worth $50M, though.

This is where we disagree. There are lots of guys on bad teams that have nothing else to do but put up shots and get stats and don't sniff 20 PPG. Yes, there are a lot of talented guys in the NBA, but if scoring 20 PPG was so easy (not saying there aren't more guys that can do it) then there would be a lot more guys doing it vs just a fraction of the league able to do so. Hell, look at the Bulls sans Rose - no 20 PPG scorers yet lot's of talented guys.

I've admitted Bargs puts up empty stats but that is in part due to his horrific teams. Again, for a 3rd option (which he's paid like a third option on a good team) he puts up solid numbers and is not as inefficient as you make him out to be. It's not about him being empty, it's about his skills and his team and what they are asking him to do vs what he might be able to do if in a proper role.

My entire argument is that he's not a bust in the context of his draft class and that he's shown some pretty damn good flashes (albeit inconsistently) and he's in the top 20 in the NBA in scoring. There's a lot of empty guys who do way less than Bargs and don't even give you the top 20 in the NBA PPG that he does.


I agree, he has a unique offensive skillset. I agree, he sucks at everything else. Thus, Emptystatnani is a below average basketball player signed to a huge deal.

How is it hyperbole when we agree on everything? The only difference on what we're saying is you add the asterisk:

*":cry there are other bad contracts in the league :cry"*

That's it. A one-dimensional gunner who can only gun isn't worth $50M. We both know this. Yes, I know the RJ contract was stupid and there are other stupid contracts out there. But that doesn't change Bustnani is overpaid and is only regarded highly by those who mistakenly think PPG is the end-all, be-all of NBA stats.

It's hyperbole because you call him the worst player in the NBA. He's not. It's hyperbole because you act like he is the most inefficient chucker ever and I have proven he's not (look at his elite FT%, look at his more than respectable career 3 point %, look at his eFG & TS%'s). It's hyperbole to act as if he is the most overpaid player in the league when there are plenty of guys currently and throughout recent history who make more money and don't even do what he does (even by the Spurs FO). Also, when you look at the draft class, it's hyperbole to call him a bust IMO because he puts up the stats (even if empty) and you can argue he was a top 7 player (probably top 5) in that draft class (doesn't make him great, but it was a terrible draft class).

You keep saying it's a "huge" deal - we just disagree. Being paid 10M a year is not some outrageous number in the context of this league and who else makes that money. Is it a large contract? Sure, it's not some mega deal that is completely crippling and in reality he's paid like a 3rd option (which he probably is decent enough to be that if the other two are a good fit and make up for his deficiencies).

I don't think Bargs is highly regarded either. At least not by me. That is the other part of the hyperbole. Saying someone is not a complete bust, that there not as bad of a chucker as it seems and that they are a top 20 NBA scorer isn't highly regarding someone especially when you explicitly say they don't do anything else well.

[TD 21]

He is a bust in the context of the draft class. I'll give them Roy, who everyone knew beforehand had bad knees and Rondo, Lowry and Millsap because obviously none of them were candidates to go anywhere near that high. But Aldridge and Gay were very much in the mix and made more sense even then.

[DPG21920]

SMH at arguing for Gay in an argument about Bargnani which includes accusations of chucking and empty stats and big contracts. No one with the exception of LA/Rondo(even that is still arguable) is a franchise caliber player (and even LA hasn't proven he can be the main man on a winning team). Drafts are a crap shoot and if you have a top 5 pick, even if it's the number one or two, you just want to be sure you get a top 5-7 player in that class (of course you would like the number one player, but again, it's hard to tell). No one in that draft class outside of LA and maybe Rondo makes you completely kick yourself for not taking over Bargnani.

[timvp]

SMH at arguing for Gay in an argument about Bargnani which includes accusations of chucking and empty stats and big contracts. No one with the exception of LA/Rondo(even that is still arguable) is a franchise caliber player (and even LA hasn't proven he can be the main man on a winning team). Drafts are a crap shoot and if you have a top 5 pick, even if it's the number one or two, you just want to be sure you get a top 5-7 player in that class (of course you would like the number one player, but again, it's hard to tell). No one in that draft class outside of LA and maybe Rondo makes you completely kick yourself for not taking over Bargnani.

The Raptors franchise would have been better off drafting nobody rather than draft Bustnani.

You know this even if you won't admit it.

[DPG21920]

My friend - the real question is, that even with hindsight, would Bustnani go in the top 7, yes or no?

The next question is, if Canadian Greece would not have paid MultiBargs 10M per year, are you saying other teams would not have either?


The issue was not drafting MultiBargs nor paying him 10M per year - the issue is the constant terrible inability to build a solid team that he fits well into.

[jesterbobman]

I don't get how anyone thinks Bargnani is good.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bargnan01.html

He's a big who's career high in Total rebound % is 10.4. That's Terrible for a big, and one of the reasons he's so bad. People complain about Bonners rebounding being bad, but in their career, Bonner is far superior.

He's been above average in terms of win shares once in his career(A brilliant .104), compared to Bonner, who has a career win score minimum of .110. They're similar players as floor spacing bigs, but Bonner dominates him.

If Win Shares isn't your thing, look at Wins produced.

http://www.thenbageek.com/players/compare?career=1&player_ids[]=314&player_ids[]=301&utf8=%E2%9C%93

Hey look, Bonner is better, and Bargnani is worse than a replacement level player.

OK, how about plus minus data.

By RAPM(http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/)
Bonner has been better every year since Bargnani's Rookie year, where Bargnani was slightly better. Bargnani has been negative every year.

He's not worth his contract, and is barely worth it if you took a 0 off the end of it. ( I would say he isn't). He has (somewhat) unique skills, but they don't help win games on a consistent basis.

[TD 21]

SMH at arguing for Gay in an argument about Bargnani which includes accusations of chucking and empty stats and big contracts. No one with the exception of LA/Rondo(even that is still arguable) is a franchise caliber player (and even LA hasn't proven he can be the main man on a winning team). Drafts are a crap shoot and if you have a top 5 pick, even if it's the number one or two, you just want to be sure you get a top 5-7 player in that class (of course you would like the number one player, but again, it's hard to tell). No one in that draft class outside of LA and maybe Rondo makes you completely kick yourself for not taking over Bargnani.

Fair enough, but Gay is still a better player and plays a position that was of need then (unlike Bargnani) and now.

Who cares whether any of them are franchise caliber players or not? That's not the point. The point is, they're better than Bargnani. They had the 1st pick and walked away with none of the top six players in the draft. That's not only inexplicable/incomprehensible, but it's set the franchise back years.

[007nites]

That Bargnani dude is pretty wack.

[DPG21920]

Fair enough, but Gay is still a better player and plays a position that was of need then (unlike Bargnani) and now.

Who cares whether any of them are franchise caliber players or not? That's not the point. The point is, they're better than Bargnani. They had the 1st pick and walked away with none of the top six players in the draft. That's not only inexplicable/incomprehensible, but it's set the franchise back years.

They did get a top 6 player in the draft.

[007nites]

That Bargnani dude is pretty wack.

..

[timvp]

I don't agree he would be amnestied if Colangelo ever left, but that argument is silly since it's purely hypothetical at this point.Life is a series of hypotheticals.


I don't think it's a completely awful contract either. It's not a good one, but not terribleYou know it's not good. That's enough for me. I'm not going to argue with you regarding subjective labels such as "awful" and "terrible". I'll let you eat that soup with a fork, tbh.


I don't have a problem with you saying he has negative value
Not good and negative value? That's fine if you want to withhold subjective adjectives. They are subjective for a reason.


wildly overpaid
"Wildly" is also subjective.


some terrible chucker
Subjective.


super inefficient
Subjective.




Bargnani had also shown a lot more high of a ceiling when playing well than a lot of guys in his pay range.
Players who are 27 and in their seventh year shouldn't get bonus points for having a high ceiling. Bustnani is who he is. He's had ~13,000 minutes to prove he's something more than a scorer who puts up empty stats.



The key point is he's paid like a third option on a good team and I do believe with the right guys around him he could be worth that.Impressive moving of the goal posts while simultaneously disagreeing with everything else you've said :lol



There are lots of guys on bad teams that have nothing else to do but put up shots and get stats and don't sniff 20 PPG.Again, name names.



Yes, there are a lot of talented guys in the NBA, but if scoring 20 PPG was so easy (not saying there aren't more guys that can do it) then there would be a lot more guys doing it vs just a fraction of the league able to do so.There can only be a finite number of 20 PPG scorers in the league at one time. Again, scoring a lot of points in the NBA is a combination of skill and opportunity. The opportunity isn't there for the vast majority of players, for various reasons, who have necessary the skill.

One reason Spurs fans witness is the simple fact that one player scoring a lot is simple not needed. Parker and Ginobili could have both been 20 PPG career scorers if they were on teams that needed scoring and didn't care about anything else. Hell, RJ was a damn good scorer the year before he came to the Spurs because he was able to try to score without any any other responsibilities.

You're seriously underestimating the skill of players in the NBA.

[DPG21920]

jester - I don't think anyone is arguing MultiBargs is really good. What's being argued is how good is he compared to those he in his draft class, his contract based on his stats & how inefficient is he really.

[DPG21920]

You are the one saying things subjectively, not me. I listed where he was (a fact) on the all time list for his eFG and TS%'s and 3PT %'s. I also compared him to his draft class counterparts and to his contract counter parts. Those are not subjective. Subjective/hyperbole is saying he's the worst player in the NBA.

Also, you are saying there is only opportunity for about 18 guys in the entire NBA to put up 20 PPG?

How was it moving the goal posts? You said he has a massive contract - I said he's paid like a third option even though he's Canadian Greece's first option for context - is that not true and not a valid statement?

[timvp]

I don't get how anyone thinks Bargnani is good.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bargnan01.html

He's a big who's career high in Total rebound % is 10.4. That's Terrible for a big, and one of the reasons he's so bad. People complain about Bonners rebounding being bad, but in their career, Bonner is far superior.

He's been above average in terms of win shares once in his career(A brilliant .104), compared to Bonner, who has a career win score minimum of .110. They're similar players as floor spacing bigs, but Bonner dominates him.

If Win Shares isn't your thing, look at Wins produced.

http://www.thenbageek.com/players/compare?career=1&player_ids[]=314&player_ids[]=301&utf8=%E2%9C%93

Hey look, Bonner is better, and Bargnani is worse than a replacement level player.

OK, how about plus minus data.

By RAPM(http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/)
Bonner has been better every year since Bargnani's Rookie year, where Bargnani was slightly better. Bargnani has been negative every year.

He's not worth his contract, and is barely worth it if you took a 0 off the end of it. ( I would say he isn't). He has (somewhat) unique skills, but they don't help win games on a consistent basis.

Truth bombs.

Bustnani, by every advanced stat in existence, is a below replacement level player. Meaning if you plucked a random scrub off the street and put him on your team, he'd help your team win more than Bustnani does.

Honestly, I've been nice to Bustnani in this thread. Speaking just from the viewpoint of advanced stats, he's so bad that if he never existed, he'd have put together a finer NBA career.

I'll give him some token credit for having a unique skillset and being able to put together one empty dimension to his game, but he really is damn bad unless you want to judge him on skillset or his hypothetical ceiling.

[DPG21920]

Again, that has never been my argument. The argument has always been:

1) Terrible draft class and he's a top 5-7 player in that draft class.
2) Not a good player, but not as inefficient as you've made him out to be, can score as evidenced by his PPG ranking.
3) Contract is bad - meaning we as fans say "why pay player "x" like that" yet all teams do it including the Spurs. In that context a big man who can crack 20 PPG is not really overpaid considering how the NBA works.

That is it. No one, including myself is arguing he is awesome. He sucks at everything but scoring, but he is talented at that and has shown flashes of being really good at scoring. That's pretty much the extent of it.

[timvp]

1) Terrible draft class and he's a top 5-7 player in that draft class.True or False: The Raptors would have been better off drafting nobody rather than Bustnani.

You know that's true.

And if that isn't the definition of a bust, I don't know what is. If you have the No. 1 pick in the draft and don't draft a player with a value higher than zero, that player you've drafted is a bust. Fact, tbh.



2) Not a good player, but not as inefficient as you've made him out to be, can score as evidenced by his PPG ranking.
PPG ranking again:lol

Bro this isn't 1997; there are better ways to judge a player other than opening up the newspaper and looking over the PPG leaderboard.

Going by your antiquated way of judging players, Manu has never been good and Duncan and Bargnani are playing at the same level this season.


3) Contract is bad - meaning we as fans say "why pay player "x" like that" yet all teams do it including the Spurs. In that context a big man who can crack 20 PPG is not really overpaid considering how the NBA works. More "his contract is bad but there are a lot of overpaid players so it's not that bad" bads.

[TD 21]

They did get a top 6 player in the draft.

Not if you count Roy, who before his knees went was the best player in the class. Even if you eliminate him though, they still didn't draft a top five player (Rondo, Aldridge, Millsap, Lowry, Gay). Clear cut number one or not, that's inexplicable.

[DPG21920]

True or False: The Raptors would have been better off drafting nobody rather than Bustnani.

You know that's true.

And if that isn't the definition of a bust, I don't know what is. If you have the No. 1 pick in the draft and don't draft a player with a value higher than zero, that player you've drafted is a bust. Fact, tbh.



PPG ranking again:lol

Bro this isn't 1997; there are better ways to judge a player other than opening up the newspaper and looking over the PPG leaderboard.

Going by your antiquated way of judging players, Manu has never been good and Duncan and Bargnani are playing at the same level this season.

More "his contract is bad but there are a lot of overpaid players so it's not that bad" bads.

You keep going to the PPG well and ignoring all the advanced stats I've posted about his %'s :lol. You also keep using weird logic like "Duncan isn't good because of...". I've already told you my argument about Bargnani and that I don't think he is a very good all around player. I am not looking at his PPG only - I am arguing that you keep saying he is only at that PPG because he is a really inefficient player. His eFG, TS%, career 3PT % and FT% all suggest that simply is not true.

PPG comes into play because he's in the top 20 and you keep saying errrrrrone can do that. I said are you trying to say that only about 18 players in the league have the opp to score 20 PPG? The PPG also comes into play with regards to his efficiency - he's not as inefficient as you have said he is by just looking at his FG% this year.

Also, the context of the league is very important to every argument. Without the basis for what people get of a similar nature, we have no grounds for comparison. The fact is big men get over paid by all franchises. Guys who are top 20 scorers get overpaid. Guys who are both definitely do. Plus, it's not like hes making superstar money. To us, 10M is a lot, but in the league that is 3rd best player on your team money and theres a wide range of how good those players actually are.

[Richie]

DPG, how can you say with a #1 pick a team should be happy to get a top 5-7 player out of that draft, that is disgraceful. If you don't get a top 3 player with the #1, you've failed.

There may be some exceptions, for example you could argue Parker is the #1 player from the 2001 draft but that was as much luck as it was good scouting. If Spurs had a higher pick, they wouldn't have taken him. However, it is flat out awful for a team to draft badly at #1 when there is All-NBA talent taken at #2 like with Bargnani and Aldridge. It's even worse when they are comparable players, i.e. both bigs or both guards.

The same goes for 2001 coincidently, when the Wizards could have taken big men like Chandler or Gasol over Kwame.

It's actually funny to see the quality that the Raptors passed on between 2003-2006. If they had taken the player drafted directly after their selection, they could have had Wade, Iguodala and Aldridge. All were passed on by the Raptors and taken with the next pick.

[timvp]

You keep going to the PPG well
:lmao I'm the one trying to lead you away from that well. You just keep going back to it as a reason why it's okay that Bustnani is overpaid or as evidence that Bustnani doesn't completely suck.


You also keep using weird logic like "Duncan isn't good because of...".What you call weird logic in this instance is the same logic you use to say Bustnani is valuable. I agree it's weird but you don't see it (or refuse to see it) when you use it.


I said are you trying to say that only about 18 players in the league have the opp to score 20 PPG?That sounds about right. If LeBron James was cloned and every player on every team was LeBron James, there'd still only be about ~20 players in the league averaging 20 PPG.

Think about that for a while, tbh, and start piecing together why that would be the case.

I'm also waiting for you to name names in addition to your answer to my True/False query.

Thanks in advance.

[DPG21920]

:lmao I'm the one trying to lead you away from that well. You just keep going back to it as a reason why it's okay that Bustnani is overpaid or as evidence that Bustnani doesn't completely suck.

Wrong. I brought up PPG as in there are not many guys averaging that much and he's in the top 20 but really it's about you saying he's really inefficient when his 3PT%, FT%, eFG and TS% say that is not the case. Am I not correct in saying that he doesn't completely suck because he can at least score in a variety of ways? That does not make him good or impactful, but I don't think he completely sucks because he can score. I think he completely sucks as a number one option, probably as a number two option, but I think he's useful as a mis-match scorer.

I think if he didn't have his offensive talents he would be the worst player in the league, but he does have them so there is some use. I also don't get how you fail to acknowledge the state of the league with regards to his contract/stats. I am glad RC Buford isn't the GM of the Spurs knowing that he would think it's ok to pay a bust like RJ 10M a year.



What you call weird logic in this instance is the same logic you use to say Bustnani is valuable. I agree it's weird but you don't see it (or refuse to see it) when you use it.

Where did I say he was valuable? I simply said he there wasn't many players in that crappy draft that you would kick yourself over for grabbing MultiBargs instead of them. I also said that he's a decent scorer who has some unique offensive talents and is not as inefficient as you make him out to be. I said it's empty stats, but I also said trying to make him your number one option is stupid. I think in a difference situation (a third option with pieces to offset his array of deficiencies, it could have been different).


That sounds about right. If LeBron James was cloned and every player on every team was LeBron James, there'd still only be about ~20 players in the league averaging 20 PPG.

Think about that for a while, tbh, and start piecing together why that would be the case.

I'm also waiting for you to name names in addition to your answer to my True/False query.

Thanks in advance.

No, by your logic, with so many guys (Gary Neal types) able to put up 20 PPG, there should be at a minimum 25-30 guys doing it on a consistent basis. There are a lot of bad teams, a lot of opportunities, a lot of face paced systems...I understand how good these guys are, but I disagree you could basically just plug anyone in and they are 20 PPG scorers. Maybe if you get them unlimited shot attempts, but it's not like Bargnani is shooting an inordinate amount for a number one option on a team. He gets plenty of shots, but nothing out of the ordinary.

Guys like Big Baby who are on terrible teams, with decent offensive ability and no other responsibilities don't put up 20 PPG despite putting up plenty of shots and being on a team devoid of scorers.

[ChumpDumper]

Glen Davis has no other responsibilities?

[timvp]

Glen Davis averages almost two and a half times more rebounds. Try again, tbh.

[ChumpDumper]

Glen Davis averages almost two and a half times more rebounds. Try again, tbh.But rebounding is not his responsibility.

[DPG21920]

Glen Davis has no other responsibilities?

Bargnani has no other responsibilities?

[DPG21920]

Glen Davis averages almost two and a half times more rebounds. Try again, tbh.

So your question really is which guy that rebounds at the same rate or worse than Bargnani has a chance to score 20 PPG and doesn't? I'm not jumping through hoops for you - the fact you say that everyone can basically average 20 PPG in the NBA is something silly to me since you cannot back that up and only 15 or guys out of everyone does it every year. If it were that easy, at least 30 people or so would do it (1 person per team) because there is plenty of opportunity and players to do so.

How about this - you name everyone who you think if you built an offense around them and gave them 15-18 shots a game, could score 20 PPG if their main role on the team was to score and they wouldn't get yanked for poor defense or rebounding.

Take into consideration the other teams defenders game planning for them and their ability to get their own looks, handle the ball and the way they score.

Oh and the answer is false. They would not be better off not drafting Bargs vs no one. Their mistake was their compounding mistakes and/or after failing to get complimentary players to put Bargs in his proper role to go away from him.

[ChumpDumper]

Bargnani has no other responsibilities?Your argument is he doesn't.

Pick a lane.

[DPG21920]

Your argument is he doesn't.

Pick a lane.

:lol You're confused. That is Timvp saying Bargnani has no other responsibilities, not me.

Read the thread.

[SpursRock20]

Why is Bargnani getting so much attention? So he scores points on a mediocre team. Bottom line.

And how this relates to the Spurs, I don't know. Maybe DPG is insinuating that he'd be a good fit in San Antonio. That's not the case. The experiment where S.A. brings a capable score who doesn't do much else failed miserably last time with RJ. That wouldn't change with Bargnani.

[ChumpDumper]

:lol You're confused. That is Timvp saying Bargnani has no other responsibilities, not me.

Read the thread.OK, so your argument is that he has responsibilities in addition to scoring, but Big Baby's only responsibility is to score?

Is that it?

[DPG21920]

OK, so your argument is that he has responsibilities in addition to scoring, but Big Baby's only responsibility is to score?

Is that it?

No, Timvp stated he thought bascially anyone given the opportunity similar to Bargnani (whom he stated only had responsibility to score) could put up 20 PPG. He then asked me to name a name on someone who counters that. I said Big Baby is a guy who is the number one option, on a bad team who can shoot plenty of times and is sub par at defending in a similar role (on a really bad team) who could not do so. He then also said BB rebounds more than Bargnani. Then you chimed in for some reason with something that was not even correct.

Get it?

[ChumpDumper]

No, Timvp stated he thought bascially anyone given the opportunity similar to Bargnani (whom he stated only had responsibility to score) could put up 20 PPG. He then asked me to name a name on someone who counters that. I said Big Baby is a guy who is the number one option, on a bad team who can shoot plenty of times and is sub par at defending in a similar role (on a really bad team) who could not do so. He then also said BB rebounds more than Bargnani. Then you chimed in for some reason with something that was not even correct.

Get it?I'm not sure this guy does.
Guys like Big Baby who are on terrible teams, with decent offensive ability and no other responsibilities don't put up 20 PPG despite putting up plenty of shots and being on a team devoid of scorers.Explain it to him.

[DPG21920]

So you still don't get it :lol. I am more patient than you are, so I will explain.

That again, was in response to Timvp saying "Bargnani has no other responsibilities". I said BB is in a similar role/expectations on a bad team as a number one option and doesn't put up the 20 PPG that everyone can do. Just because he happens to be a better rebounder doesn't mean he has any more responsibilities. He certainly is not counted on to anchor a defense or do anything else other than be the first offensive option - much like Bargs. The fact he happens to be a better rebounder doesn't change anything.

Understand yet? Do you realize that Timvp is the one that brought up the no responsibilities issue? Please acknoweldege this?

[DPG21920]

So to dumb it down further for you: If your argument is that anyone with no responsibilities like Bargnani can score 20 PPG (Timvp's argument, not mine since you are confused) and I counter with Big Baby does not do it, that implies BB and Bargnani are in similar roles: Bad teams, number one off option, shoot plenty of times, not good defenders....