Performance Enhancing Drugs

[EJFischer]

So this has been on my mind lately, and perhaps SpursTalk will be a good forum to discuss it.

There have been elite bigs in the NBA who outlasted all of their contemporaries, and remained a dominant force on the court until their late thirties or even early forties. Chamberlain, Russell, Kareem, Malone... it seems like there are occasional generational talents who simply don't play by the same rules as everyone else. I have very little doubt that Tim Duncan is one of these players, and that his improbably brilliant play at age 36 is just one more way in which he is a statistical outlier, as he has been his whole career. With more minutes, with no plantar fasciitis, with a few season's experience how to be effective given his knee, Duncan has had a late-career jump in stats, to levels he spent several years at as a younger man. Duncan being this effective right now, delightful surprise though it is, makes sense.

But.

It's not just Duncan. NBA careers are lasting longer than they ever have before. Kidd and Nash are still elite point guards. Rasheed Wallace just successfully unretired at age 38 after two years away from the game. Michael Finley is thinking about doing the same thing at 39. Something has changed. If we look at the numbers, we can quantify the change.

Here's a list of all players who were still active at age 35 or older from the beginning of the league through 1997 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=total&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=&year_max=1997&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=35&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=season&order_by_asc=&offset=0)

Here's a list of all players who have been active in the league at age 35 or older since 1997 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1998&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=35&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws&order_by_asc=&offset=400)

From 1946 to 1997, there were 110 players who were active in the NBA past their mid-thirties. In the last fifteen years, though, there have been 422 such players. That's almost four times as many long-career players in the last fifteen years as there were in the previous fifty. It is impossible for me to look at that and not at least think about the way records suddenly started falling left and right during the steroid era in baseball. The only real discussion of PEDs in the NBA that I've seen is this series of recent posts on TrueHoop (http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/51305/gaps-in-nba-drug-testing), none of which fill me with a great deal of confidence. In the aftermath of Lance Armstrong's fall from grace, we've all gotten to see just how advanced and intricate performance enhancing regimes have gotten. Things are much more advanced now than trainers handing out steroids. (Of course some people *cough*Mark Cuban*cough* think that trainers should do just that (http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/nba/news/story?id=4581839).)

Given the amazing increase in player longevity, the lack of transparency in the NBA's PED testing policy, and the way that athletes in sport after sport have been coming forward, it has become almost impossible for me to believe that the NBA doesn't have an unaddressed issue with performance enhancing drugs. I don't have a strong opinion about how extensive the problem is, nor about which particular players might be implicated. Let me reiterate that I'm not claiming any individual player here is doping. What I am saying is that the athletes in the NBA, as a whole, are doing things in the last 15 years that have never been done before, to an extreme degree, and that it is happening in the same time period when many other sports have found rampant doping. I worry that some of the change in the NBA is due to doping as well.

Are performance enhancing drugs in the NBA a concern to other people as well? I would welcome more perspectives on this issue.

[SpursRock20]

Good topic. I believe that if there are drugs being taken in the NBA, they shouldn't be called performance-enhancing. I would call them longevity-enhancing drugs. And even before I'd speculate that players are taking drugs, I would like to see just how much the success rate of various surgeries has increased over the last 15 years. It has absolutely improved and has led to more players playing longer (to what degree? I don't know).

To me, you can't get an unfair performance advantage from the prototypical PED's in the NBA. I don't think PED's can increase your potential or make you a better basketball player. I think that they can only extend your career. And if they are not harming your body in the long-term, they are fine in my book.

[Juggity]

The NBA doesn't even test for HGH. Wouldn't be surprised if 30% of the league was juicing

[Paranoid Pop]

Every one is dopping tbh but monkeyball doesn't age as well as fondamentally sound games so there's still some kind of justice in the end.

Also what do you think nba player are doing in Germany?

Soccer players are dopping as well, it's just that in sports that require a certain level of skill, people don't care as much as opposed to cycling/running.

At the end of the day, everyone goes through the same tests so the playing field is equal and thus I don't think it matter that much tbh.

[spurs10]

All the talk about PED's is interesting, as I can't find a way someone can do that stuff without drugs. I'm surprised it isn't mandatory like ibuprofen. It's usually the lying that gets them in trouble.

[FromWayDowntown]

I think there are at least four non-PED reasons to explain the increased longevity of careers in the modern era: (1) the amount of money available to veterans, even those who make just the minimum provides clear incentive to play as long as possible; (2) as someone else suggested, the evolution of medical knowledge/technology makes many injuries recoverable, even for older players; (3) the proliferation of teams after 1988, going from 23 teams to 30 (having added the Heat, Magic, Timberwolves, Hornets, Raptors, Grizzlies, and Bobcats) and the related increase in the number of roster spots creates more opportunities for older players; and (4) the lack of fundamental skill in a lot of younger players, I think, causes teams to look more at older players to provide greater reliability.

I'm sure others can come up with plenty of other possible explanations.

With all of that said, the incentives of money will keep players around longer AND induce them to do what they can to hang around as long as possible.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Dammit, I had a fairly well reasoned thing half typed out and then decided to go to lunch. FWD covered most of what I had. :fu

I will add that the game as a whole is less physical than it was pre-97. 35 minutes a night in today's NBA is a lot different than it would have been for someone who started their NBA career in the 80s. The direction the game's been going for the last decade has been towards less physical play, less emphasis on defense and (IIRC) more emphasis on 3 point shooting in general. Basically there's less demand for a skill that is highly likely to deteriorate with age and more demand on one that is most likely not to fall off from 35 and beyond. The two examples highlighted in the OP are perfect examples. Kidd and Nash can still run an offense about as well as anyone in the league, but they are abyssmal defenders now.

[freetiago]

pretty much everyone in every sport uses something
steroids arent for building muscle
theyre a recovery drug
recovery is a big part of building muscle which is why people think thats what its for
wouldnt be suprised if nba players are juicing
nba players have horrible schedules that arent conductive to building muscle yet most players are packing on pounds of muscle

[MR-Clutch]

The knowledge of the human body is increasing at an exponential rate. The spurs are one of the best organizations at using and finding up to date methods of athletic training.

[mathbzh]

To me, you can't get an unfair performance advantage from the prototypical PED's in the NBA. I don't think PED's can increase your potential or make you a better basketball player. I think that they can only extend your career. And if they are not harming your body in the long-term, they are fine in my book.

So why exactly teams are drafting so many athletes?
You think that Lebron would be a MVP if he had Matt Bonner level of athleticism? (I am not implying that Lebron specifically is under PED's).
Or that being able to play 40 mpg in 82 games + playoffs is not and advantage?
Or that players put 30 pounds on just because it looks good?

Of course, running and jumping like a deer is not enough. But it would be naive to think it does not help.

[polandprzem]

pretty much everyone in every sport uses something
steroids arent for building muscle
theyre a recovery drug
recovery is a big part of building muscle which is why people think thats what its for
wouldnt be suprised if nba players are juicing
nba players have horrible schedules that arent conductive to building muscle yet most players are packing on pounds of muscle

Exactly
With the amount of physical abuse the bodies in NBA and other pro sports have, it's impossible to build muscles not having powerful substance to make the body recover.
Still Dwight as 7 footer got big guns.

[mathbzh]

nba players have horrible schedules that arent conductive to building muscle yet most players are packing on pounds of muscle

I agree with you, but to be fair, the off season is long enough to build some muscle.

[polandprzem]

I agree with you, but to be fair, the off season is long enough to build some muscle.

:lol


nope




One time LJ said why is Gino after injury comes back weak when other players are putting fantastic performances

[mathbzh]

:lol
nope
One time LJ said why is Gino after injury comes back weak when other players are putting fantastic performances

First, let me say that I believe many NBA players are juicing.
But at least (unlike soccer) they have a long off season. During that period it is possible to put on some weight (not as much as some NBA player though).

Now an injury is different. You may or may not be able to go to the gym. Or you may want to rest your body instead of putting more strain on it... I don't know.

[polandprzem]

recover is still recover
After the injury the body should be in better condition.

[polandprzem]

In the ofseason it's also impossible to bulk up that much.

2 months is not enough, although there are so many legal /almost not legal/ supplements that is easier to get trough tough season or build some muscles.

[timvp]

The knowledge of the human body is increasing at an exponential rate. The spurs are one of the best organizations at using and finding up to date methods of athletic training.

If we're talking the Spurs specifically, I agree with this quote. The Spurs do as much as any team as far as helping players recover and take care of their bodies. From proper diet to their state of the art cryogenic machines, this organization does everything to help extend careers. And that's not even mentioning Pop's limiting of minutes. Compared to past generations, these are massive steps forward. 20-30 years ago, players like Ginobili and Parker would have been done at age 30.

As for the league on the whole, I'd imagine that there are a number of players using PEDs. And, honestly, it's understandable. If you're a borderline NBA player and taking undetectable PEDs could be the difference between making $15,000 in the D-League or $5,000,000 in the NBA, your ethics would have to be immaculate to avoid that temptation.

[Brazil]

82 games in 6 months + Playoffs with Back to backs, travels all over the country, big amount of money at stake, low level of controls... you have all the ingredients that lead to mass doping.

[mathbzh]

In the ofseason it's also impossible to bulk up that much.

2 months is not enough, although there are so many legal /almost not legal/ supplements that is easier to get trough tough season or build some muscles.

I agree on the "that much" (I think I said it) :toast

(just for the record, if your season is over in April, you have 5/6 months)

[polandprzem]

with one moth vacations doing nothing

[polandprzem]

Damn, right now all the talk is about TRT. If it's good or bad for the sport. And it amazes me that ppl are against it. All in all we want to see great performances and TRT as a legal enhancement is the best way for athletes that want to still compete illegally legal

[superjames1992]

In additions to the reasons already mentioned, let us also remember that we have better pain-killing drugs than in the past as well as baths, etc., so it is easier than it was in the past to "play through the pain".

In addition, medical science has increased greatly and has allowed players to play longer since certain ailments are able to be "fixed" now that were not able to be surgically repaired in the past.

Honestly, Manu is more surprising to me than Timmy. He's almost as hold as Duncan (35) and he's still throwing his body around like he always did, despite his age and a whole slew of injuries throughout his career. Being a big man that relies more on fundamentals rather than sheer athletic ability, it shouldn't be too surprising that Timmy can still play at a high level.

With that being said, I would not be surprised at all if most players in most any sport are using some sort of PEDs.

[FromWayDowntown]

If we're talking the Spurs specifically, I agree with this quote. The Spurs do as much as any team as far as helping players recover and take care of their bodies. From proper diet to their state of the art cryogenic machines, this organization does everything to help extend careers.

The Spurs have come a long way from the days when their franchise cornerstone had to go public with a demand that the team charter flights.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=0dkzAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Um4DAAAAIBAJ&pg=4707,7896378&hl=en

[TampaDude]

As far as Timmy is concerned, I read that he dropped about 20 pounds in the offseason, so he's lighter and quicker than he was last year.

Whatever the reason, he sure has turned back the clock!

[SpursRock20]

So why exactly teams are drafting so many athletes?
You think that Lebron would be a MVP if he had Matt Bonner level of athleticism? (I am not implying that Lebron specifically is under PED's).
Or that being able to play 40 mpg in 82 games + playoffs is not and advantage?
Or that players put 30 pounds on just because it looks good?

Of course, running and jumping like a deer is not enough. But it would be naive to think it does not help.

You are probably right. But comparing to other sports, I feel like added muscle in the NBA doesn't help as much as adding muscle in say football or baseball. As far as longevity, I know it would definitely help no matter the sport.

[mathbzh]

You are probably right. But comparing to other sports, I feel like added muscle in the NBA doesn't help as much as adding muscle in say football or baseball. As far as longevity, I know it would definitely help no matter the sport.

Look at Shaq or Wilt and tell me muscle does not help as much as in baseball? Moreover, PED's is not all about muscle ("Tour de France" guys are not exactly big).
Someone like Parker is not big, but his game relies on his speed and body control.
Imagine what he could do with improved Stamina? If he could just be in "attack mode" for 40 mpg and every game while harassing his opponent on defense.

And what about Manu? Playing 40 mpg he could have been a 25/6/6 player and in the conversation for best SG with Kobe and Wade.

Obviously basketball is a very physical game and PED's could give a player some tremendous help.

[SpursRock20]

Look at Shaq or Wilt and tell me muscle does not help as much as in baseball? Moreover, PED's is not all about muscle ("Tour de France" guys are not exactly big).
Someone like Parker is not big, but his game relies on his speed and body control.
Imagine what he could do with improved Stamina? If he could just be in "attack mode" for 40 mpg and every game while harassing his opponent on defense.

And what about Manu? Playing 40 mpg he could have been a 25/6/6 player and in the conversation for best SG with Kobe and Wade.

Obviously basketball is a very physical game and PED's could give a player some tremendous help.

Good points. I always attributed steroids to increased muscle mass. I'm not exactly sure what they do, but what you said makes sense.

[DAF86]

lol at the thought of proffesional athletes not taking advantage of lax anti-doping controls.

[Kidd K]

While I agree that there was players using PEDs, I don't believe it's neccessarily JUST the guys OP thinks they are. . .I also don't agree that Tim Duncan is one of the players who may be doing it, though obviously I'm biased in that regard. Still, my rationale with that is that Duncan has been steadily productive for his entire career, and dropped far off the table from one season to the next while struggling with his knee.

In 2011 (Duncan's worst season), I recall multiple times where he stumbled to the floor because his knee gave way. He seemed to be playing hurt all year. Last year, his stats improved, though were still down from 2 years prior. This year, his stats only look so impressive in contrast because he's averaging 3 more minutes per game than the last 3 years. If you look at his per 36 stats, they aren't much higher.

Compared to his worst season in 2010: PPG up 4.6 points (getting 2 1/2 more shots a game), rebounds up 0.7, assists down 0.4, blocks up 0.3.

Not a big difference besides getting more shot attempts in along with his extra 3 minutes a game, which is why he's getting the extra shot attempts. His FG% is also up 1.7%, and his FT% is up 4.4%. Offensive boards down 0.7. Fouls up 0.3.

I think you're reading too far into Duncan's stats OP. You should've just looked at the minutes, and stats in said minutes. It's pretty much an anomally for playing an extra 10% of minutes per game early in this season. Less blowout wins (many close games), so he's been playing the full game a lot of the time, rather than get much time for rest. Stats go up as a result.


I think there are at least four non-PED reasons to explain the increased longevity of careers in the modern era: (1) the amount of money available to veterans, even those who make just the minimum provides clear incentive to play as long as possible; (2) as someone else suggested, the evolution of medical knowledge/technology makes many injuries recoverable, even for older players; (3) the proliferation of teams after 1988, going from 23 teams to 30 (having added the Heat, Magic, Timberwolves, Hornets, Raptors, Grizzlies, and Bobcats) and the related increase in the number of roster spots creates more opportunities for older players; and (4) the lack of fundamental skill in a lot of younger players, I think, causes teams to look more at older players to provide greater reliability.

I'm sure others can come up with plenty of other possible explanations.

With all of that said, the incentives of money will keep players around longer AND induce them to do what they can to hang around as long as possible.

Solid reply dude, I agree with all of those reasons for why some of the players who are playing extended careers are haivng success.

It isn't like there are boatloads of 38 year old athletic freaks littering the NBA.

[TDMVPDPOY]

didnt maradona use PED, i didnt see it benefit hiim in anyway

[Manufan909]

I think there are at least four non-PED reasons to explain the increased longevity of careers in the modern era: (1) the amount of money available to veterans, even those who make just the minimum provides clear incentive to play as long as possible; (2) as someone else suggested, the evolution of medical knowledge/technology makes many injuries recoverable, even for older players; (3) the proliferation of teams after 1988, going from 23 teams to 30 (having added the Heat, Magic, Timberwolves, Hornets, Raptors, Grizzlies, and Bobcats) and the related increase in the number of roster spots creates more opportunities for older players; and (4) the lack of fundamental skill in a lot of younger players, I think, causes teams to look more at older players to provide greater reliability.

This.

I'm sure others can come up with plenty of other possible explanations.

With all of that said, the incentives of money will keep players around longer AND induce them to do what they can to hang around as long as possible.

[Poolboy5623]

You are probably right. But comparing to other sports, I feel like added muscle in the NBA doesn't help as much as adding muscle in say football or baseball. As far as longevity, I know it would definitely help no matter the sport.

Oh but it does. To say steroids wouldn't help someone in basketball is pretty crazy. I've played basketball since I could walk...and after high school I decided to mess with anabolics as my attentions turned more to weight lifting...at my optimal weight of ~210lbs, I was a monser...small guys didn't stand a chance and the bigger guys were to slow...at 6'1" I could also all of a sudden dunk very easily...it wasn't until my weight gains got out of hand that I lost it all...so basically, if done properly ped's can be a huge advantage to just about any athlete. To say they wouldn't help really shows a lack of true knowledge.

[TDMVPDPOY]

is the dream team immunue from drug testing for olympics and wc?

[Kidd K]

I would honestly question the exact opposite kinds of people that the OP is.

Biggest suspects imo are guys who were super athletes at very young ages. i.e., at barely 20 they have gigantic muscles, can jump up and dust off the top of the backboard, and/or are fast as hell despite their big sizes. People like Russell Westbrook, Dwight Howard, LeBron James, Blake Griffin, etc.

Players who don't rely on athleticism to do their thing (Duncan), should be near the bottom of the list of suspects. They refer to players with his kind of moves as having an "old man's game" after all, since you don't have to rely on athleticism to get the job done. . .unlike Westbrook, D. Wade, Dwight Howard, etc.



is the dream team immunue from drug testing for olympics and wc?

Nope, but there are ways to hide PED use. If you know how to hide it and haven't used for a long period of time like 2-3 months, it's pretty much undetectable at that point.

[SpursRock20]

To say they wouldn't help really shows a lack of true knowledge.


http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m85d4xXJjF1rqfhi2o1_400.gif

[temujin]

didnt maradona use PED, i didnt see it benefit hiim in anyway

Maradona was on cocaine early on in his career.
I can't even imagine what he could have done if he could stay clear of that.

[temujin]

I would honestly question the exact opposite kinds of people that the OP is.

Biggest suspects imo are guys who were super athletes at very young ages. i.e., at barely 20 they have gigantic muscles, can jump up and dust off the top of the backboard, and/or are fast as hell despite their big sizes. People like Russell Westbrook, Dwight Howard, LeBron James, Blake Griffin, etc.

Players who don't rely on athleticism to do their thing (Duncan), should be near the bottom of the list of suspects. They refer to players with his kind of moves as having an "old man's game" after all, since you don't have to rely on athleticism to get the job done. . .unlike Westbrook, D. Wade, Dwight Howard, etc.


Very much agree.
I'd be VERy surprised that serious doping tests would not eliminate these monsters.
Wake me up when this in the interest of the NBA business.

[aal04]

More than 66% of professional athleres in the USA are on PEDs/hormones.

Part of being a professsional athlete. Dont kid yourself.

As for TD, hes overhauled his game. Lighter, less posts, etc. And he has never been muscular or has he packed it on for his 16th season. If anything, he may be the cleanest guy out there.

[Kidd K]

Very much agree.
I'd be VERy surprised that serious doping tests would not eliminate these monsters.
Wake me up when this in the interest of the NBA business.

Yep. Way too many top athletes have gotten rolled for PEDs in sports who decided to start testing for them, then as soon as there's ever a crackdown in any sport. . .hey look, suddenly stats are dropping INSTANTLY across the board. I'm not sure if NBA stats would drop way off the table due to the nature of the game, but I suspect there would be a lot less players who have insane 40"+ verticals or 4.2 second 40 yard dash times.

Basketball spin doctors have done a good job of acting like it doesn't effect their sport by preying on ignorance of how steroids work and what they effect. "What good is homerun power in the NBA?", as if that's all roids do. . .add 20% to your home run totals. -_-

Eventually there will be a big reveal on them for professional basketball like there was in baseball, but it won't happen until enough people start demanding it. NBA isn't gonna drum up a strict drug policy by itself since there's no money in it.

[Poolboy5623]

A big misconception of steroid use is they make you all bulky and huge. This can definitely be the case if that's the goal, but is far from the only reason to use. Athletes of all shapes and sizes use. In sports, I'd say the biggest advantage is recovery time. As we get older, we need more and more time to heal up and rest after an Intense workout(or game). Then theres the injuries and healing time. The roids can make you heal much faster, if taken properly. It basically turns you into your own version of superman. The testing in pro sports is pretty pathetic if you ask me. Much of the stuff is also undetectable. If you were an athlete and millions of dollars were on the line, you'd take every advantage to;-) I would bet the house and pool that 66 %, as mentioned above, is low. The question we, as fans ask ourselves...how much fun would sports be if everyone was natural? Baseball sure has taken a nosedive since the "steroid era". Is football next? Back to leather helmets?

To the post above, I wasn't trying to be mean. It just bugs me when people try to talk about this particular subject in such a negative manner. I use to be one of them myself. However, if done properly steroids can do wonders. Most of the athletes are under a doctor's supervision..lucky bastards.

[polandprzem]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyxpJStOnW8

[polandprzem]

also if you want

Find bigger stronger faster
Side effects of being american

It was is whole piece but now you can find it in parts.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkL1T-CZPfs