Immigration Reform Looms

[RandomGuy]

It's gonna happen. Suck it, all you xenophobic jackholes. :stirpot

Seriously, the only question is how far it will go for the undocumented/illegal/pickyerterm: Instant amnesty, formal legal status, some hybrid or something else.

Democrats see it as a wedge issue between the GOP and hispanics, and it will be an instant goad to get the immigrant bashers on the right to say something stupid that will put off the coveted demographic.

As one GOP latino opined: "They will not be hearing our conservative messages if we are threatening to deport their grandmothers".

True that.

Obama will push for immigration reform, White House says
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/obama-push-immigration-reform-white-house-says-215731725--politics.html


What would Republican-led immigration reform look like?
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/republican-led-immigration-reform-look-204220812--politics.html


Outgoing Senator Hutchinson is ringing the doorbell and running away:
Jon Kyl, Kay Bailey Hutchison introduce immigration reform bill
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1112/84274.html


Sens. Kay Bailey Hutchison of Texas and Jon Kyl of Arizona – who are both retiring after this term – introduced the bill, called the ACHIEVE Act, which they touted as a alternative to the DREAM Act that could garner bipartisan support. The legislation is highly unlikely to be considered in the jam-packed lame-duck session, and it’s unclear whether it will be introduced again by other legislators in the next Congress.

Still, the senators stressed that Congress needs to jump-start the discussions on reforming immigration laws, particularly for the so-called DREAM Act kids.


Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1112/84274.html#ixzz2DYLNKGEY


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I have a feeling this will get really nasty after we get through the fiscal cliff debate. As a rank-and-file Democrat, I look forward to the inevitable shot in the foot on the part of some high-profile Republican that will be held out as proof that Reflublicans view hispanics with thinly disguised distain. There will be something stupid said, ala "legitimate rape". True or not, it will make the Democratic case easier, and make for greatly amusing political theater for me.

Get down to brass tacks it is win-win for the Dems to push for this, and the newly dawned realization on the part of the GOP establishment that they need to do SOMETHING to court Hispanics will seel the deal.

Personally I think the DREAM act is an awesome idea, and would push for something a bit further and more comprehensive.

[TeyshaBlue]

It's gonna happen. Suck it, all you xenophobic jackholes. :stirpot

Seriously, the only question is how far it will go for the undocumented/illegal/pickyerterm: Instant amnesty, formal legal status, some hybrid or something else.

Democrats see it as a wedge issue between the GOP and hispanics, and it will be an instant goad to get the immigrant bashers on the right to say something stupid that will put off the coveted demographic.

As one GOP latino opined: "They will not be hearing our conservative messages if we are threatening to deport their grandmothers".

True that.

Obama will push for immigration reform, White House says
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/obama-push-immigration-reform-white-house-says-215731725--politics.html


What would Republican-led immigration reform look like?
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/republican-led-immigration-reform-look-204220812--politics.html


Outgoing Senator Hutchinson is ringing the doorbell and running away:
Jon Kyl, Kay Bailey Hutchison introduce immigration reform bill
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1112/84274.html




Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1112/84274.html#ixzz2DYLNKGEY


-----------------------------------------------

I have a feeling this will get really nasty after we get through the fiscal cliff debate. As a rank-and-file Democrat, I look forward to the inevitable shot in the foot on the part of some high-profile Republican that will be held out as proof that Reflublicans view hispanics with thinly disguised distain. There will be something stupid said, ala "legitimate rape". True or not, it will make the Democratic case easier, and make for greatly amusing political theater for me.

Get down to brass tacks it is win-win for the Dems to push for this, and the newly dawned realization on the part of the GOP establishment that they need to do SOMETHING to court Hispanics will seel the deal.

Personally I think the DREAM act is an awesome idea, and would push for something a bit further and more comprehensive.

I don't think, when push comes to shove, that the contentiousness will be as sharp as you think it will be. This is another rally point for moderate Republicans ala' the recent Fiscal Cliff response by the moderate faction.

[RandomGuy]

I don't think, when push comes to shove, that the contentiousness will be as sharp as you think it will be. This is another rally point for moderate Republicans ala' the recent Fiscal Cliff response by the moderate faction.

Hopefully not. I will find it amusing if it happens, as it will have been sadly predictable.

It is an issue that deserves a bit more serious reflection, but then politics is rarely about such.

Love 'em, hate 'em, indifferent, 20M people aren't going away. We can either deal with them, their children and grandchildren in a thoughtful, respectful way, and realize the vast human potential they represent or be idiots and attempt to marginalize them for short-sighted, irrational/emotional reasons.

[Homeland Security]

Democrats see it as a wedge issue between the GOP and hispanics, and it will be an instant goad to get the immigrant bashers on the right to say something stupid that will put off the coveted demographic.

As one GOP latino opined: "They will not be hearing our conservative messages if we are threatening to deport their grandmothers".
I don't think the Republicans understand how politics work anymore. It's hard for me to see how capitulating on immigration reform is going to move the needle at all on Latino opinions about the GOP. The GOP's problem isn't as simple as Latinos disliking their stance on immigration reform. This will just be seen as a cynical desperate ploy.

I don't think the GOP can fix the problem. It would take a bunch of people taking an interest in the local Hispanic community wherever they are. They'd need to be visible, shake hands, learn people's names and the names of their families, participate in community events, volunteer their time, ask questions and answer questions. You have to convince people you care about them and then maybe they'll listen when you talk about what you believe and why they should vote a certain way. Maybe then you'd be able to craft a message about the importance of protecting the borders without making people whose families have been here for 100 years feel like you think they're just a bunch of third-world invaders who are destroying the country, or making them think you want to deport their abuelita.

I just don't believe the GOP could do that. If they were to start talking about having gone into the Hispanic community and learning what they're concerned about, and finding common ground on this or that conservative policy, they'd get absolutely crucified by their Anglo base. Too big a portion of the Anglo base DOES think of every single Hispanic as a third-world invader who is destroying the country, and to say otherwise would make you a "liberal squish." I don't believe this has anything to do with conservative policies anymore.

So of course some Republican is going to say something "stupid" and alienate Hispanics. Except it's not really "stupid" but rather revealing about their true beliefs.

[Homeland Security]

The Democrats had room in the 1960's and 1970's to turn their back on the racists and Jeebotards in their coalition. It cost them the Presidency for most of the period between 1968-1992, but I could see how they didn't want to get to the point where everyone else's disgust with the racists and Jeebotards whittled down their coalition to the point where they couldn't win national elections anymore, yet couldn't continue to exist without the racists and Jeebotards.

The GOP apparently didn't think that far ahead.

[LnGrrrR]

I don't think the Republicans understand how politics work anymore. It's hard for me to see how capitulating on immigration reform is going to move the needle at all on Latino opinions about the GOP. The GOP's problem isn't as simple as Latinos disliking their stance on immigration reform. This will just be seen as a cynical desperate ploy.

I don't think the GOP can fix the problem. It would take a bunch of people taking an interest in the local Hispanic community wherever they are. They'd need to be visible, shake hands, learn people's names and the names of their families, participate in community events, volunteer their time, ask questions and answer questions. You have to convince people you care about them and then maybe they'll listen when you talk about what you believe and why they should vote a certain way. Maybe then you'd be able to craft a message about the importance of protecting the borders without making people whose families have been here for 100 years feel like you think they're just a bunch of third-world invaders who are destroying the country, or making them think you want to deport their abuelita.

I just don't believe the GOP could do that. If they were to start talking about having gone into the Hispanic community and learning what they're concerned about, and finding common ground on this or that conservative policy, they'd get absolutely crucified by their Anglo base. Too big a portion of the Anglo base DOES think of every single Hispanic as a third-world invader who is destroying the country, and to say otherwise would make you a "liberal squish." I don't believe this has anything to do with conservative policies anymore.

So of course some Republican is going to say something "stupid" and alienate Hispanics. Except it's not really "stupid" but rather revealing about their true beliefs.

Jeb Bush 2016! :lol

Honestly, if Jeb Bush's last name weren't "Bush", he'd have a much better chance. Then again, if his last name wasn't Bush he might not have been elected in the first place.

[mavs>spurs]

if you're not for mass amnesty, open borders, bankruptcy and north american union you're a racist jeebotard :cry

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The only issue that I have is that if they get amnesty for not paying taxes for say a decade then where does that leave the rest of us? It's fucked.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The Democrats had room in the 1960's and 1970's to turn their back on the racists and Jeebotards in their coalition. It cost them the Presidency for most of the period between 1968-1992, but I could see how they didn't want to get to the point where everyone else's disgust with the racists and Jeebotards whittled down their coalition to the point where they couldn't win national elections anymore, yet couldn't continue to exist without the racists and Jeebotards.

The GOP apparently didn't think that far ahead.

Meh, post 1965 was a period of transition for the Democrats as the minorities began to take leadership positions in the party. The old southern planter types migrated to the GOP over the 70s until the major exodus invited by Reagan which helped earn him landslides. It wasn't possible 'turn their backs on them' because one changes rather than turn your own back on yourself. That's just turning around.

[mavs>spurs]

it isn't fair, their kids went to school and got good educations without paying school taxes..they get welfare for claiming their illegal family members as dependents..the big elephant in the room that no one wants to address is that the illegals broke the healthcare system and hence obamacare. once they pay back the 1 or 2 trillion they owe in backtaxes and theft call me and i'll think about immigration reform for 2 seconds instaed of 1 before i laugh.

[boutons_deux]

"amnesty for not paying taxes"

probably well over 90% are members of Bishop Gecko's 47%.

[LnGrrrR]

if you're not for mass amnesty, open borders, bankruptcy and north american union you're a racist jeebotard :cry

Get back at me about that condom offer. :hat

[mavs>spurs]

lmfao you can always count on be@ner-wife to show up to defend the honor of illegal be@ners everywhere :lmao sup pussyboy?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

"amnesty for not paying taxes"

probably well over 90% are members of Bishop Gecko's 47%.




Then they are not issue but not all of them are is the point and making up numbers is fun and all but i am more interested in reality not boutonspeak.

[LnGrrrR]

The only issue that I have is that if they get amnesty for not paying taxes for say a decade then where does that leave the rest of us? It's fucked.


A lot of illegal immigrants do pay taxes, actually.

[LnGrrrR]

lmfao you can always count on be@ner-wife to show up to defend the honor of illegal be@ners everywhere :lmao sup pussyboy?

Free condoms mang! Think about it.

[mavs>spurs]

brah real talk you're quick to any threads involving beans..you should be an immigration lawywer

[LnGrrrR]

brah real talk you're quick to any threads involving beans..you should be an immigration lawywer

I guess that would make you a foreskin lawyer, tbh.

[mavs>spurs]

that's really telling me

[FuzzyLumpkins]

A lot of illegal immigrants do pay taxes, actually.

Sure and even if the generous estimates of 50% are paying their taxes that still leaves half that do not. A solution needs to be found for it and 'oh well let's just amnesty that too' is not an acceptable one.

[LnGrrrR]

that's really telling me

It's really hard to come up with something as cutting and witty as be@nerwife, tbh.

[LnGrrrR]

Sure and even if the generous estimates of 50% are paying their taxes that still leaves half that do not. A solution needs to be found for it and 'oh well let's just amnesty that too' is not an acceptable one.

I can't think of any solution that will gather a good amount of taxes. Make the penalty too high and immigrants will just stay in the shadows. I think if you can prove residency for a certain amount of years (let's say, 10 or 15, but that could be higher), and a clean record, then you'd be put on a probationary period and have to pay X amount of money, after which you could get a green card and then try to apply for citizenship.

[mavs>spurs]

stealing my don't care, minimal effort shtick now i see

[LnGrrrR]

stealing my don't care, minimal effort shtick now i see

I can tell how minimal your effort is and how little you care by the lack of responses you generate.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I can't think of any solution that will gather a good amount of taxes. Make the penalty too high and immigrants will just stay in the shadows. I think if you can prove residency for a certain amount of years (let's say, 10 or 15, but that could be higher), and a clean record, then you'd be put on a probationary period and have to pay X amount of money, after which you could get a green card and then try to apply for citizenship.

I am not concerned with the income as much as I am about equal protection. Most of the time I am pragmatic but when it comes to certain ideals such as cruel and unusual punishment, illegal search and seizure, freedom of speech and the press, presumption of innocence and equal protection I do not give a shit about the short term benefits because allowance of the tenants of tyranny for any short term gain is an allowance of tyranny. That non-citizens would receive better treatment than citizens obeying the law is wrong on several of those levels.

[ElNono]

tbh, every time they muck around with immigration law, they make it an even worse spaghetti... that was partially the reason for me to go ahead an get citizenship while I could under the current rules.

[ploto]

it isn't fair, their kids went to school and got good educations without paying school taxes.

Where did they live that they paid no school taxes. Even apartment renters pay school tax indirectly through their rent. Even if they lived with 10 people in one rental house, they still were paying school tax.

[Clipper Nation]

It's gonna happen. Suck it, all you xenophobic jackholes. :stirpot

Expecting people to follow our laws is xenophobic now? :lol

[Wild Cobra]

Amnesty for illegal immigrates is supported by sellouts of this nation.

[Latarian Milton]

while illgals gnaw at the US welfare and they don't deserve it, i dont see no reason why the "legal" immigrants do tbh. legal immigrants take even more welfare from the government even though there number isn't as extravagant as illegal aliens. they do pay taxes but you can't buy citizenships. the illegals would be willing to pay more if they could get legal status in exchange. these people are shameless and they come to this country for the only purpose of the welfare & freedom that the US government grants them, no matter if they're legal or illegal. if you wanna get rid of illegal immigrants you have to expel them all, they're all the same shameless fucking maggots and shouldn't be treated differently tbh

[boutons_deux]

"illgals gnaw at the US welfare and they don't deserve it"

but what about American citizens, aka Randian moochers/takers, impoverished by the Banksters' Great Depression? you have the same "don't deserve welfare" position towards them?

Do you have any equivalent (to your xenophobia) negative position, towards THE REAL PROBLEMS of the criminal, corrupt financial sector and the United Corporations of America?

[LnGrrrR]

Amnesty for illegal immigrates is supported by sellouts of this nation.

What does this even mean?

[Homeland Security]

What does this even mean?
Sellout = race traitor

[Wild Cobra]

What does this even mean?
I have explained my several points of opposition before to this type of amnesty. The only amnesty I will accept is amnesty that isn't even discussed until after the borders are secure. One of my reasons is talk of it becomes a magnet for those who want to be here before any cut-off date in proposed legislation.

[boutons_deux]

"after the borders are secure"

agreed, but how many $10Bs to initialize that secured border, and how many $Bs annually are you prepared to spend in perpetuity maintaining it. we already handed Boeing IIRC $5B+ for a totally failed, partial system

[LnGrrrR]

I have explained my several points of opposition before to this type of amnesty. The only amnesty I will accept is amnesty that isn't even discussed until after the borders are secure. One of my reasons is talk of it becomes a magnet for those who want to be here before any cut-off date in proposed legislation.

Sure, that's reasonable. What's not reasonable was your comment that anyone who disagrees with you with amnesty is a "sellout".

[Wild Cobra]

Sure, that's reasonable. What's not reasonable was your comment that anyone who disagrees with you with amnesty is a "sellout".
Consider what the context of talking about amnesty does today.

[LnGrrrR]

Consider what the context of talking about amnesty does today.

It brings in tax revenue that wouldn't otherwise, at the cost of these people getting Medicaid/Social Security/Welfare etc. Though one could argue that because these people don't have these programs, they're more likely to use emergency rooms, commit crimes, etc etc as well.

I don't think it's as easy as you make it out to be.

[boutons_deux]

"It brings in tax revenue that wouldn't otherwise"

Not much income tax, because probably 95%+ are in Bishop Gecko's 47%.

But if they finally became legal payroll employees paying SS/Medicare (rather than underpaid/unpaid black employees of criminal employers), then that payroll revenue would help.

And getting paid fully would probably have them spending more (sales tax, property tax).

[RandomGuy]

Expecting people to follow our laws is xenophobic now? :lol

Depends. Just poking certain touchy types for fun.

[RandomGuy]

Consider what the context of talking about amnesty does today.

It would certainly broaden the tax base.

Amnesty that brings a lot of workers into the pool, plus a solid crackdown on employers that still employ any leftover illegals would add quite a bit of revenues.

I would point out they are going to be there anyway. Not giving them a solid path to legality is leaving money on the table.

[Winehole23]

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-11-29/the-real-story-on-the-falling-u-dot-s-dot-birth-rate

[Wild Cobra]

It would certainly broaden the tax base.

Amnesty that brings a lot of workers into the pool, plus a solid crackdown on employers that still employ any leftover illegals would add quite a bit of revenues.

I would point out they are going to be there anyway. Not giving them a solid path to legality is leaving money on the table.
WTF...

How many of these people make a big enough wage to pay federal income tax? I say few if any. They might not even pay state taxes. Your saying they will contribute can only be because so many work under the table and don't pay SS/medicare. Say all you want about that angle, but they are taking away jobs from citizens who would pay the SS and medicare insurance anyway.

[Borat Sagyidev]

It would certainly broaden the tax base.

Amnesty that brings a lot of workers into the pool, plus a solid crackdown on employers that still employ any leftover illegals would add quite a bit of revenues.

I would point out they are going to be there anyway. Not giving them a solid path to legality is leaving money on the table.

This is a big point. But WC and wanna be Canadian boy are in the weeds. People make big money off illegal immigration because they can get away with it, and knowingly fuck everyone else over.

Property taxes are big in TX partly because they fund County and Local hospitals.

When the illegal labor pool dries up, It will only be outsourced more. And you can bet the farm, specifically conservatives won´t be running for those jobs. As I´ve said, a significant amount of them come from families who´ve avoided labor since slavery.

[Wild Cobra]

WTF...

Just crack down on employers now. The illegals will self deport.

[ElNono]

Just crack down on employers now. The illegals will self deport.

:lmao

[Latarian Milton]

crofl

http://autos.aol.com/article/police-14-illegal-immigrants-fled-suv-during-traffic-stop/?icid=maing-grid7%7Caim%7Cdl23%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D240234

[CosmicCowboy]

ElNono, you laugh but it's true. The feds have already set up e-verify so it's simple for an employer to check immigration status on a new employee. Make the penalties tough enough and employers will quit hiring undocumented workers. They could shut town the underground/untaxed economy if they wanted to. First offense for hiring illegals a week in jail and $10,000.fine for the boss. Second offense a month in jail and $50,000 fine. Third offense 2 years and $100,000 fine for the boss. For a big corporation the penalty is for the guy that hired the illegal AND the CEO. Enforce it very publicly.

The other thing they would have to do is use e-verify to qualify for public benefits...no lone star card, now WIC, no nothing without clearing e-verify.

You REALLY think that wouldn't kill the job market for illegals? If there are no jobs and no benefits, why come?

[LnGrrrR]

Two problems with that CC:

1) do you really think a law punishing CEOs would get through Congress? And even if they pass the law, will it actually be enforced? I don't think there's enough "want" to stop immigration that badly.

2) there will always be "under the table" jobs. Whether its Craigslist, picking produce, etc etc there are always people willing to pay others cash out of hand, and unless its a big company I don't know if LE would/should take the time to process those kinds of cases

[Wild Cobra]

Two problems with that CC:

1) do you really think a law punishing CEOs would get through Congress? And even if they pass the law, will it actually be enforced? I don't think there's enough "want" to stop immigration that badly.

2) there will always be "under the table" jobs. Whether its Craigslist, picking produce, etc etc there are always people willing to pay others cash out of hand, and unless its a big company I don't know if LE would/should take the time to process those kinds of cases
So why sweeten the pot for the offenders by offering amnesty?

[CosmicCowboy]

LOL

I didn't say congress would ever pass it, I said it would work and it would. You really think the CEO of Tyson foods would allow his managers at the chicken processing plants to hire illegals if he thought it could land him in jail?

Same goes for your craigslist companies. ..lawncare, etc. You really think they would risk hiring illegals if they thought they could land in jail and get a huge fine?

[CosmicCowboy]

I would support a hybrid of amnesty probation and harsh employer sanctions. if an illegal registers and comes out of the underground economy he get a green card to continue working at his job as long as taxes are paid. Keep your nose clean for 10 years and learn english as a second language and you get your citizenship. Why wouldn't we want a citizen like that?

[Wild Cobra]

I would support a hybrid of amnesty probation and harsh employer sanctions. if an illegal registers and comes out of the underground economy he get a green card to continue working at his job as long as taxes are paid. Keep your nose clean for 10 years and learn english as a second language and you get your citizenship. Why wouldn't we want a citizen like that?
What about the quotas and people that the illegal gets to jump in front of. Are you really going to give your middle finger to those doing it right?

[CosmicCowboy]

What about the quotas and people that the illegal gets to jump in front of. Are you really going to give your middle finger to those doing it right?

I am a realist and accept the fact that a transitional program has to be implemented if we are ever going to seriously address the problem.

You have an implementation date. Those in the country on X date get to apply for a probationary green card. Break the law and you lose your green card and job.

With the employer sanctions you stop the flow of new illegals because there are no underground jobs available to new entries.

[Wild Cobra]

I am a realist and accept the fact that a transitional program has to be implemented if we are ever going to seriously address the problem.

You have an implementation date. Those in the country on X date get to apply for a probationary green card. Break the law and you lose your green card and job.

With the employer sanctions you stop the flow of new illegals because there are no underground jobs available to new entries.
I'm a realist too. I despise the probability that law breakers will cut in line before those attempting to come here the right way. I do acknowledge that we have a wealth of great people who have been these law breakers as well. Like I have pointed out on multiple occasions, I am flat out against any talk of amnesty until our borders are secure. Your own words:

Those in the country on X date get to apply for a probationary green card.
Any talk of plans will cause a flood of more illegals trying to get here before the deadline.

I propose severe penalties for the employers who hire them. Make it next to impossible for it to be a positive thing for them to come here illegally.

Seriously. Are we going to say "fuck you" to the immigrants who go through the proper process?

[CosmicCowboy]

Yes. One way or another. I'd rather come up with a realistic plan that stops future illegal immigration. "Sealing the border" is impossible. I realize you live in the northwest and have probably never seen the Mexican border but it thousands of miles of rough ass country. Instead of spending billions trying to seal the border use 1/10 of what we are spending now on employer monitoring/enforcement and the border self seals itself because there is no incentive to cross illegally..

[Wild Cobra]

I'm OK with not physically sealing the border for the illegal immigrants. Without financial incentive to be here, they will stop coming. Now I would say we still need to seal it better for trafficking purposes.

What good is a no fly list if these people can walk across for example?

[CosmicCowboy]

If we legalized and taxed pot we would eliminate most of the trafficking too and mortally wound the cartels in the pocket where it really hurts.

[CosmicCowboy]

Make me the emperor and I will fix all this shit in ten years.

[LnGrrrR]

So why sweeten the pot for the offenders by offering amnesty?

I don't think it really "sweetens" the pot. If we make them pay fines/penalties, then the only real "bonus" they get out of it is being eligible for SS/medicaid, and not having to worry about deportation.

Again, it may "sweeten" the pot slightly, but I don't think the idea of self-deportation is very viable.

[LnGrrrR]

I'm a realist too. I despise the probability that law breakers will cut in line before those attempting to come here the right way.

I would think we could keep them in the back of the line. Give them green cards, but make them wait longer to become actual citizens than those who did things the "right" way. Also, people doing it the right way wouldn't have to pay the penalties.

[CosmicCowboy]

I don't think it really "sweetens" the pot. If we make them pay fines/penalties, then the only real "bonus" they get out of it is being eligible for SS/medicaid, and not having to worry about deportation.

Again, it may "sweeten" the pot slightly, but I don't think the idea of self-deportation is very viable.

The problem with the self deportation issue is the pain it causes.

Without debating the moral issue there are a lot of employers out there hiring illegal aliens because there is no downside to them to do so.

If you put the employer sanctions in place without a path to citizenship it's a lose/lose situation.

The employer is forced to bring in a valuable and productive employee and tell him..."Sorry Jose...you have been a great employee but I have to fire you because they are gonna put me in jail if I don't"

Th Alternative is "Hey Jose...fill this form out and you can get a green card to continue to work here...keep your nose clean and learn to speak english better and you can be a citizen in 10 years".

Why the hell wouldn't we want hard working, productive tax paying citizens that don't get in trouble with the law?

[Wild Cobra]

If we legalized and taxed pot we would eliminate most of the trafficking too and mortally wound the cartels in the pocket where it really hurts.
That isn't the only drug crossing the border, and I think you agree we don't want to legalize the others.

[Wild Cobra]

I don't think it really "sweetens" the pot. If we make them pay fines/penalties, then the only real "bonus" they get out of it is being eligible for SS/medicaid, and not having to worry about deportation.

Again, it may "sweeten" the pot slightly, but I don't think the idea of self-deportation is very viable.
Why even accept them? Just because they are here? How many of them are in high enough paying jobs to not have subsidized living? Shouldn't we require those being subsidized to accept any job available, or lose subsidies first? Then if we have more job openings than available workers, we can issue work visas.

Supply and demand. The more labor you have willing to work for fewer jobs, the lower the wage base will be. If we cut off the supply of cheap labor, then incomes will go up.

Why do you want to keep wages suppressed?

[Wild Cobra]

I would think we could keep them in the back of the line. Give them green cards, but make them wait longer to become actual citizens than those who did things the "right" way. Also, people doing it the right way wouldn't have to pay the penalties.
Most of the illegal immigrants don't even want to be citizens. They just want the opportunity of a better living. Think that would do any good?

[Latarian Milton]

Most of the illegal immigrants don't even want to be citizens. They just want the opportunity of a better living. Think that would do any good?
not as bad as if they want to be citizens & influence the US politics like "legal" immigrants do tbh

[LnGrrrR]

Why even accept them? Just because they are here? How many of them are in high enough paying jobs to not have subsidized living? Shouldn't we require those being subsidized to accept any job available, or lose subsidies first? Then if we have more job openings than available workers, we can issue work visas.

Supply and demand. The more labor you have willing to work for fewer jobs, the lower the wage base will be. If we cut off the supply of cheap labor, then incomes will go up.

Why do you want to keep wages suppressed?

Do you really think wages will go up? Heck, look at all the companies that are cutting people due to Obamacare. I could turn around and ask why you want to reduce the amount of jobs available. :lol

And yes, we should "accept them" because I don't think they're going anywhere anyways. While CCs idea might work, I highly doubt it would ever get past a vote in Congress.

[LnGrrrR]

Most of the illegal immigrants don't even want to be citizens. They just want the opportunity of a better living. Think that would do any good?

Better living would probably include not having to worry about being deported. And if they just want green cards, then sure. They would have to continue to remain productive and out of trouble to renew their green card.

Speaking of which, along with border control, they need better review of lapsed green cards. That's a big issue too, and a tough one to get around.

[LnGrrrR]

That isn't the only drug crossing the border, and I think you agree we don't want to legalize the others.

It's likely that marijuana is one of the higher volume drugs being transported.

[ElNono]

ElNono, you laugh but it's true. The feds have already set up e-verify so it's simple for an employer to check immigration status on a new employee. Make the penalties tough enough and employers will quit hiring undocumented workers. They could shut town the underground/untaxed economy if they wanted to. First offense for hiring illegals a week in jail and $10,000.fine for the boss. Second offense a month in jail and $50,000 fine. Third offense 2 years and $100,000 fine for the boss. For a big corporation the penalty is for the guy that hired the illegal AND the CEO. Enforce it very publicly.

The other thing they would have to do is use e-verify to qualify for public benefits...no lone star card, now WIC, no nothing without clearing e-verify.

You REALLY think that wouldn't kill the job market for illegals? If there are no jobs and no benefits, why come?

The vast majority of these fellas are paid cash for their daily work under the table. They're picked up in the morning, dropped off in the afternoon. They come here for the summer and take their spoils with them back home for the winter.

They're the most damaging kind too, because they soak up the money and leave to spend it somewhere else. They're also not tax payers (neither them or the employer). And if they get hurt, we're paying for the hospital visit.

I don't like it one bit, but none of those guys are going to 'self-deport'. The jobs (especially seasonal) are going to be there for them whenever they want. E-verify doesn't matter, they won't be registered as employees anyways.

You are also overlooking the political pull of farmers and what not that hire these people, and that would increase their costs a lot if they were not there (both from paying americans or simply because americans won't do as much work).

The sensible way to address this is to shut down the border and some sort of seasonal temporary worker visa, simply because during that time there's much more demand for work than what the country can fulfill.

[ElNono]

The problem with the self deportation issue is the pain it causes.

Without debating the moral issue there are a lot of employers out there hiring illegal aliens because there is no downside to them to do so.

If you put the employer sanctions in place without a path to citizenship it's a lose/lose situation.

The employer is forced to bring in a valuable and productive employee and tell him..."Sorry Jose...you have been a great employee but I have to fire you because they are gonna put me in jail if I don't"

Th Alternative is "Hey Jose...fill this form out and you can get a green card to continue to work here...keep your nose clean and learn to speak english better and you can be a citizen in 10 years".

Why the hell wouldn't we want hard working, productive tax paying citizens that don't get in trouble with the law?

I would argue this is the usual disconnect about illegal immigration. They don't care if you deport them, because if they really want to, they can come back (in the current state of affairs with the border anyways).

Heck, some of them will leave and then come back later because they hate the cold winter here.

If you can't effectively close down the border (and maybe not 100% sealed off, but at least 50x more difficult than it is right now), then the problem isn't being addressed.

[RandomGuy]

This is a big point. But WC and wanna be Canadian boy are in the weeds. People make big money off illegal immigration because they can get away with it, and knowingly fuck everyone else over.

Property taxes are big in TX partly because they fund County and Local hospitals.

When the illegal labor pool dries up, It will only be outsourced more. And you can bet the farm, specifically conservatives won´t be running for those jobs. As I´ve said, a significant amount of them come from families who´ve avoided labor since slavery.

You can't outsource the picking of crops, and construction.

You will see food and building things get a bit more expensive as wages in both rise. We have sucked Mexico dry of labor, and, despite what many think, Mexico's economy is humming along, if the Economist article I read the other day is to be believed. Given that factory wages in China have quintupled in the last ten years, we will see more manufacturing jobs in Mexico, and that will keep a lot of potential border cross-ers/inas where they are.

[RandomGuy]

Most of the illegal immigrants don't even want to be citizens. They just want the opportunity of a better living. Think that would do any good?

Their children however, have grown up thinking of themselves as Mexican Americans, with an increasing emphasis on the latter.

Their grandkids will be Americans and fully integrated.

Problem solved.