matt bonner

[playblair]

:wow

[HI-FI]

bad part of Bonner is he has athletic deficiencies and sometimes his choking is unstoppable, but i can't hate the guy, he tries to do the right play every time. he looks to be working harder on defense.

[Obstructed_View]

So is there a good reason why he was in the game most of the fourth quarter and overtime?

[Gutter92]

So is there a good reason why he was in the game most of the fourth quarter and overtime?


+- of +15 when he was on the court, tbh...coincidence?

[Borosai]

So is there a good reason why he was in the game most of the fourth quarter and overtime?

The game had to be won.

[playblair]

+- of +15 when he was on the court, tbh...coincidence?

word bonner earned a rotation spot tonight

[Warlord23]

The real story is Splitter and Diaw looking like D-leaguers against an elite frontline.

[Obstructed_View]

+- of +15 when he was on the court, tbh...coincidence?

Wasn't that the argument when he was starting and the team was terrible defensively?

[hater]

he's THAT cracka

[Splits]

Pop must have seen something he liked that the Grizz were doing defensively if he played him the entire 4th and OT. I don't see it, but it must be something about pulling one of their bigs out of the paint. Bonbon did a decent job on Z-bo down the stretch, though a bunch of the misses were chippies.

[Obstructed_View]

Pop must have seen something he liked that the Grizz were doing defensively if he played him the entire 4th and OT. I don't see it, but it must be something about pulling one of their bigs out of the paint. Bonbon did a decent job on Z-bo down the stretch, though a bunch of the misses were chippies.

I've never seen Randolph play Bonner that way. Seemed like he was just expecting calls. Yeah, Bonner fouled him virtually every time, but the refs get tired of calling it over and over.

[letmk]

His presence forces Grizzlies change their defense on other Spurs players, and tonight his defense is B+ on the effort and A- on the result, whether it's luck or not.

[Drz]

When the Spurs lost to the Grizz in Round 1 a couple years ago, it was Bonner who had the best adjusted plus-minus on the team.

I didn't see the game tonight and don't know the Grizzlies lineup well enough, but it must be one of those lineups that plays to Bonner's strengths (or "strength.") I wouldn't be surprised at all if this is a one-game thing.

[Obstructed_View]

When the Spurs lost to the Grizz in Round 1 a couple years ago, it was Bonner who had the best adjusted plus-minus on the team.

You're saying this to point out why plus-minus doesn't mean anything, right?

[Drz]

You're saying this to point out why plus-minus doesn't mean anything, right?
Adjusted plus-minus, very key difference; APM is a very useful stat, unlike plus minus. I edited my post with a second line to explain what I meant a little further.

[Mark in Austin]

Fool's gold.

Fucking. Fool's. Gold.

[timvp]

When the Spurs lost to the Grizz in Round 1 a couple years ago, it was Bonner who had the best adjusted plus-minus on the team.

No he didn't. Not even close.

Bonner has always been a plus/minus disaster in the playoffs.

[racm]

Didn't Bonner lead the Spurs in scoring against one game against the Grizz last season?

[Drz]

No he didn't. Not even close.

Bonner has always been a plus/minus disaster in the playoffs.
My mistake, I had been thinking of win shares. http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2011.html <-- Playoffs Advanced, WS/48.

[Kidd K]

I've never seen Randolph play Bonner that way. Seemed like he was just expecting calls. Yeah, Bonner fouled him virtually every time, but the refs get tired of calling it over and over.

Tbh, I think some of the calls Randolph got against Bonner were bullshit. Bonner was standing there like a statue with his hands straight up in the air and Randolph was lowering his head and jumping into a stationary, non moving Bonner, and they were calling that a foul.

It ain't one.

[Obstructed_View]

If any advanced stat says that Matt Bonner should be getting most of the fourth quarter and overtime minutes or that he's useful in the playoffs or in the clutch, then there's a flaw to the stat. If everyone's aware that they have to play that much harder to make up for a liability on both ends and they do, it moves the needle. If you give a shitty player more minutes with the three best players than any of the other bench players, it's going to move the needle.

[Obstructed_View]

Tbh, I think some of the calls Randolph got against Bonner were bullshit. Bonner was standing there like a statue with his hands straight up in the air and Randolph was lowering his head and jumping into a stationary, non moving Bonner, and they were calling that a foul.

It ain't one.

I agree, which is why Bonner got away with a couple of them late. It's likely that he got called for a couple that weren't fouls early. Like I said, it looked like Z-Bo expected to get the call and didn't really try for more than a token shot attempt. Normally he'd work his way down into position, fake, step under, go into Bonner's chest and score over him and draw a foul. We've all seen him do it. We've seen lots of guys do it to Bonner, and Randolph can do it to most anyone when he's in the mood.

[Drz]

If any advanced stat says that Matt Bonner should be getting most of the fourth quarter and overtime minutes or that he's useful in the playoffs or in the clutch, then there's a flaw to the stat.
Another possibility is there's a flaw with the thinking of the person using the stat. Oftentimes people, especially on internet message boards, spew shit about stuff that they know very little about. Like what you're doing.


If everyone's aware that they have to play that much harder to make up for a liability on both ends and they do, it moves the needle.
:lol Yeah, that explains it. The other Spurs are like "oh no, Bonner's out here now, we're gonna have to work REALLY hard!" and then they're better than usual. :


If you give a shitty player more minutes with the three best players than any of the other bench players, it's going to move the needle.
APM accounts for that.

[Obstructed_View]

Another possibility is there's a flaw with the thinking of the person using the stat. Oftentimes people, especially on internet message boards, spew shit about stuff that they know very little about. Like what you're doing.

Says the person who doesn't know the difference between win share and APM. :clap

Yeah, Bonner's a winner. You just keep trying to sell that one here, gnsf.

[Kidd K]

If any advanced stat says that Matt Bonner should be getting most of the fourth quarter and overtime minutes or that he's useful in the playoffs or in the clutch, then there's a flaw to the stat. If everyone's aware that they have to play that much harder to make up for a liability on both ends and they do, it moves the needle. If you give a shitty player more minutes with the three best players than any of the other bench players, it's going to move the needle.

Actually his +/- and his offensive rating stats tank in the playoffs. They're good during the season. That reflects what we see tbh. He just chokes when it counts most because the defense is more suffocating.

He has a good role during the season though. Eats up some minutes, hits threes, gets some rebounds, doesn't throw the ball away too often. Not a high quality player, but not a negative impact imo. My main problem with him is his overly high salary.

[timvp]

My mistake, I had been thinking of win shares. http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2011.html <-- Playoffs Advanced, WS/48.

:lol @ Claiming small sample WS48 as sign of value. DeJuan Blair had possibly the highest WS48 in the history of Spurs playoff basketball last season and anyone with common sense could tell you that's meaningless.

WS48, as you might now, chiefly looks at eFG% and turnovers. In a small sample size, one extra turnover or a meaningless three-pointer can have a huge effect.

I don't even really like WS48 over the course of a whole season, tbh. It's painfully antiquated at this point.

[Drz]

Says the person who doesn't know the difference between win share and APM. :clap
Misremembering something isn't the same as not knowing the difference, dumbass.


Yeah, Bonner's a winner. You just keep trying to sell that one here
Statistically he is, but I understand that you don't trust things you don't understand. And truthfully, that's a good thing -- you shouldn't. But you should educate yourself, imo.


gnsf
Very lame. :rolleyes

[Drz]

:lol @ Claiming small sample WS48 as sign of value.
I didn't claim that.

Edit: Not sure if you remember our past dealings, but I feel like the I'm the poster child of paying attention to sample size.

[Obstructed_View]

Oftentimes people, especially on internet message boards, spew shit about stuff that they know very little about.

Learn from your one piece of wisdom.

[playblair]

stat arguments are wack... bonner came in changed the tide ...

[letmk]

If any advanced stat says that Matt Bonner should be getting most of the fourth quarter and overtime minutes or that he's useful in the playoffs or in the clutch, then there's a flaw to the stat. If everyone's aware that they have to play that much harder to make up for a liability on both ends and they do, it moves the needle. If you give a shitty player more minutes with the three best players than any of the other bench players, it's going to move the needle.

I don't think there is much wrong about advanced stats. As Timvp points out many times, Bonner's advanced stats in regular season are quite good, but those stats in playoffs are very bad. This corroborates that Bonner is a asset in regular season and a liability in playoffs. So it's Bonner the player who disappoints during playoffs, but those stats themselves, at least in Bonner's case, is actually proved right.

Of course, you might rebut Hollinger's method of using advanced stats as a predictor, as Bonner proves that prior good stats does not necessarily bode well for the future, or in big games. But those advance stats are still good tools to gauge players' contributions to already-played games.

[DMC]

Matt's problem, some playing time related, is he's out of position more often than not and he has happy feet, plus he doesn't get his hands up (happy hands too) enough. Otherwise, he's all he can be.

[Drz]

I don't think there is much wrong about advanced stats. As Timvp points out many times, Bonner's advanced stats in regular season are quite good, but those stats in playoffs are very bad. This corroborates that Bonner is a asset in regular season and a liability in playoffs. So it's Bonner the player who disappoints during playoffs, but those stats themselves, at least in Bonner's case, is actually proved right.
Matt Bonner playoff minutes: 595
Matt Bonner regular season minutes: 10,768

I don't think we learn much at all from his playoff stats. Not enough info.

Edit: That's not entirely true... we learn something. My guess is the truth lies somewhere between the extremes: that his expected future playoff performance is worse than his regular season performance, but definitely not to the degree that it has been historically. I further theorize that the dropoff is due to the slightly different style of play in the playoffs, and has absolutely nothing to do with "choking."

Edit2: Wizard right there below me.

[DMC]

I don't think there is much wrong about advanced stats. As Timvp points out many times, Bonner's advanced stats in regular season are quite good, but those stats in playoffs are very bad. This corroborates that Bonner is a asset in regular season and a liability in playoffs. So it's Bonner the player who disappoints during playoffs, but those stats themselves, at least in Bonner's case, is actually proved right.

Of course, you might rebut Hollinger's method of using advanced stats as a predictor, as Bonner proves that prior good stats does not necessarily bode well for the future, or in big games. But those advance stats are still good tools to gauge players' contributions to already-played games.

Though it's true Bonner isn't effective in the playoffs, it's not that Bonner changes. It's that teams play him differently. I wouldn't say he disappoints (anyone disappointed in Bonner by now really has short term memory). You can no more be disappointed in Bonner than you can be in a car that you know only runs well in the winter and overheats in the summer. You either spend money to get better or you live with it.

[racm]

:lol @ Claiming small sample WS48 as sign of value. DeJuan Blair had possibly the highest WS48 in the history of Spurs playoff basketball last season and anyone with common sense could tell you that's meaningless.

WS48, as you might now, chiefly looks at eFG% and turnovers. In a small sample size, one extra turnover or a meaningless three-pointer can have a huge effect.

I don't even really like WS48 over the course of a whole season, tbh. It's painfully antiquated at this point.

I personally prefer WP48, and Timmy D has a WP48 >.300. That's GOAT level.

[DrSteffo]

Matt Bonner playoff minutes: 595
Matt Bonner regular season minutes: 10,768

I don't think we learn much at all from his playoff stats. Not enough info.

Edit: That's not entirely true... we learn something. My guess is the truth lies somewhere between the extremes: that his expected future playoff performance is worse than his regular season performance, but definitely not to the degree that it has been historically. I further theorize that the dropoff is due to the slightly different style of play in the playoffs, and has absolutely nothing to do with "choking."

Edit2: Wizard right there below me.

So we learn that you are another lame Bonner-troll. How original.

[skulls138]

Matt Bonner playing stout defense in the paint is not news. He's not athletic but he pushes his weight and muscles around or did anybody not notice that the guy is pumped.

[Obstructed_View]

I don't think there is much wrong about advanced stats. As Timvp points out many times, Bonner's advanced stats in regular season are quite good, but those stats in playoffs are very bad. This corroborates that Bonner is a asset in regular season and a liability in playoffs. So it's Bonner the player who disappoints during playoffs, but those stats themselves, at least in Bonner's case, is actually proved right.

Of course, you might rebut Hollinger's method of using advanced stats as a predictor, as Bonner proves that prior good stats does not necessarily bode well for the future, or in big games. But those advance stats are still good tools to gauge players' contributions to already-played games.

That Matt Bonner can be enormously effective in stretches is not a question. We've all seen him do it. During those times, he doesn't even have to make the shots he takes to help the offense, and he doesn't even have to attempt shots if teams are respecting his offense and not victimizing him on defense. The key to my first sentence, howevuh, is "in stretches". There comes a point where teams take advantage of his slow release and predictable dribble moves, and where they also victimize him in the post, taking advantage of his lack of length and inability to challenge a shot without fouling. I'm glad the Spurs could capitalize on the Grizzlies' neglecting to do that in a regular-season game. But anyone that's watched him over the years knows the length of the shift is pushing it in a close game where he's getting posted up. Perhaps it was necessary since the other guys put in so many minutes against Miami. Time will tell.

[benstanfield]

:lobt2:Big 4 reunited

[Drz]

or did anybody not notice that the guy is pumped.
Good point. I've never been able to tell. He's certainly got a solid build, and he's certainly not fat, but he's got that kind of in-between build, where it's hard to say. I'm saying this in the context of an NBA player of course, obviously he's more swole than the general population.

Here he is lookin' thick, solid, tight. No homo. Well.... maybe a little.

http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/files/2010/11/Matt-Bonner-11122-306x489.jpg

[YoMamaIsCallin]

Good takes here. I would call Popovich's heavy reliance on Bonner last night an example of situational coaching genius, or perhaps less charitably a case of him thinking "WTF do I do now, might as well go with Bonner/Mills/Ginobili because Diaw/Green/Blair/Neal are sucking horribly, it couldn't be worse, and I don't have Jackson to throw in there." And, improbably, it worked. As a bonus it somehow woke up Neal, and gave Tony and Tim enough rest to come in and roll over the obviously tired Grizz on a back2back in the late 4Q and OT.

IMO Bonner was an absolute stud last night. Check out his battling on the defensive boards and bodying up Z-Bo. It was a freaking cage fight under there. And the way the refs were calling the game, that was exactly what was needed. Not to mention a couple of badly needed 3s tossed in with large balls attached to their flight.

For those who say "yeah but his effectiveness falls off in the playoffs", um, DUH. That wasn't a playoff game.

[SA210]

Fool's gold.

Fucking. Fool's. Gold.

[itzsoweezee]

Fools gold. The sample size is huge at this point - Boner is worthless in the playoffs. Just get better playing without him

[therealtruth]

Good takes here. I would call Popovich's heavy reliance on Bonner last night an example of situational coaching genius, or perhaps less charitably a case of him thinking "WTF do I do now, might as well go with Bonner/Mills/Ginobili because Diaw/Green/Blair/Neal are sucking horribly, it couldn't be worse, and I don't have Jackson to throw in there." And, improbably, it worked. As a bonus it somehow woke up Neal, and gave Tony and Tim enough rest to come in and roll over the obviously tired Grizz on a back2back in the late 4Q and OT.

IMO Bonner was an absolute stud last night. Check out his battling on the defensive boards and bodying up Z-Bo. It was a freaking cage fight under there. And the way the refs were calling the game, that was exactly what was needed. Not to mention a couple of badly needed 3s tossed in with large balls attached to their flight.

For those who say "yeah but his effectiveness falls off in the playoffs", um, DUH. That wasn't a playoff game.

It's amazing when you have to earn minutes sometimes you actually play better.

[TDMVPDPOY]

matt bonner has proven..............that the fkn turd cant shoot with a hand in his face...

[Morg1411]

he's THAT cracka

:lmao

[YoMamaIsCallin]

matt bonner has proven..............that the fkn turd cant shoot with a hand in his face...

Your average NBA player's shooting % drops off significantly when the defender gets a hand up. Those that can shoot effectively against defensive challenges are called All-Stars, which Bonner certainly is not.

[Drz]

He takes a lot of crap on this forum for passing up "open" shots (open in quotes because he, like everybody else in the NBA, almost never passes up a truly open shot), but I'm happy with his shot selection. If you're getting challenged and you aren't confident you can shoot a good percentage, pull it down and try for a better opportunity. Why force it? Just my opinion.

[dunkman]

Bonner has always been an serviceable RS player. Hopefully, Pop has already figured that and won't be playing Bonner in the playoffs.

[Sean Cagney]

The game had to be won.

Too bad he won't do this later in the year and the playoffs to win the game, I wish he would for once. This Bonner ish is tired, he does this early at times yes, but later on it's a borken record.

[Sean Cagney]

Matt Bonner playoff minutes: 595
Matt Bonner regular season minutes: 10,768

I don't think we learn much at all from his playoff stats. Not enough info.

Edit: That's not entirely true... we learn something. My guess is the truth lies somewhere between the extremes: that his expected future playoff performance is worse than his regular season performance, but definitely not to the degree that it has been historically. I further theorize that the dropoff is due to the slightly different style of play in the playoffs, and has absolutely nothing to do with "choking."

Edit2: Wizard right there below me.

Yep, I look at % though of threes and FG% from two's, if that the case and I go by that then he sucks. I mean thats what it's about right? Great players raise their level in the playoffs and those who don't have IT do not correct? Bonner has not done sh*t in the playoffs, I swear he sucks when it comes around that month before the playoffs until then lol. He is what he is though, people can say what they want about him in here but hey that won't change, he is what he is and accept it as long as he is on the team.
Bonner has always been an serviceable RS player. Hopefully, Pop has already figured that and won't be playing Bonner in the playoffs.

Oh no he will, and he will just shrivel up again like that bum he is.
He takes a lot of crap on this forum for passing up "open" shots (open in quotes because he, like everybody else in the NBA, almost never passes up a truly open shot), but I'm happy with his shot selection. If you're getting challenged and you aren't confident you can shoot a good percentage, pull it down and try for a better opportunity. Why force it? Just my opinion.

So put the ball on the floor and go in and take a worse shot or just F up after you put it on the floor, correct? He does this quite a few times. He will pass up an open shot and put it on the floor and............

[racm]

Bonner has always been an serviceable RS player. Hopefully, Pop has already figured that and won't be playing Bonner in the playoffs.

Bonner is the fifth big in the rotation, to be used when Blair, Diaw, AND Splitter all play mediocre.

The nine-man rotation with Kawhi/Jax out was Parker/Neal/Green/Duncan/Blair with Ginobili/Splitter/Diaw/De Colo off the bench.

[maverick1948]

May I point out a stat that many of you think is crazy? When the 2012 playoffs ended for the Spurs, the record was 10-4. 4-0 against the Jazz. 4-0 against the Clippers. 2-4 against the Thunder. With Bonner getting playing time, we were 10-1. The last 3 games, he got a total of 3 minutes and all 3 were losses.

Is there a correlation between wins and losses when Bonner plays and when he doesnt?

[HI-FI]

May I point out a stat that many of you think is crazy? When the 2012 playoffs ended for the Spurs, the record was 10-4. 4-0 against the Jazz. 4-0 against the Clippers. 2-4 against the Thunder. With Bonner getting playing time, we were 10-1. The last 3 games, he got a total of 3 minutes and all 3 were losses.

Is there a correlation between wins and losses when Bonner plays and when he doesnt?
without glancing at my Hollinger approved stats, I can't say for certain. IIRC, when Bonner was on the floor the other teams went on big runs, at least in the Clippers and Thunder series. I was also smoking a lot during this time so my memory is fuzzy. It did seem like teams going on runs with him on the floor though, which was sad.

it's an interesting question though, and i'm sure the usual mob will bring out their pitchforks. I think DMC's post above is the closest to how I feel on Bonner.

[therealtruth]

Pretty much against the Thunder I remember the momentum swinging when Bonner got in the game. Nick Collision instantly became unstoppable and Bonner couldn't buy a shot.

[HI-FI]

Nick Collison would make a good Spur tbh.

[SenorSpur]

With the emergence of Splitter this season, along with the motivated play of Blair, this has caused Bonner to move into his rightful place as the team's 5th big. Now all they have to do is figure out a way to move him off the roster altogether and replace him with a more athletic PF.