Has Bonner Improved The Spurs Frontline?

[cd021]

Entering the season the spurs biggest question mark was their big man rotation. We have 5 big men; Duncan, Splitter, Diaw, Bonner & Blair. Without adding another big-man ,before the season, the Spurs front line has already improved. While Duncan has been a beast to start ,and deserves alot of credit, some of the improvement is indirectly related to Matt Bonner.

Dejuan Blair-Since the Denver game, Blair has seeming overtaken Bonner in the rotation. During the off season, he lost more than 25lbs and worked on his mid range game in the off season. He was recently moved back into the starting lineup, by Pop. The move makes sense, Blair is a hustle player who can score in the paint and helps on the boards (mostly on the offensive glass). Blair is also a fantastic, if underrated, passer. Defensively he is capable of forcing turnovers with quick hands (in 3 full seasons he’s ranked 10th, 2nd, and 4th in steal among centers).

He lost favor late last season, due in part; to a lack of range, he possessed no consistent shot out of the paint. Bonner is a career 42% 3pt percentage. Blair worked on his range in the off season to compete not only with Bonner but Diaw, as well, for minutes.

In the last 8 games his production has dropped. Against Memphis he played 17 minutes, had 1 point & 2 rebounds. Since the breakout Denver game (19 Pts in 23 Minutes) He has only scored more than 10 pts, once. Blair has scored 5 points or fewer in four of those games, while averaging 16 mpg. Even if the Spurs are starting him to showcase him for other teams, he need to play better or risk losing the little playing time he has in a contract year.



Tim Duncan- Duncan is still one of the best post players in the league. Without a bulky 7'0 big in the opposite post, opposing teams have a harder time sending doubles at Tim. Send a wing at Duncan and he can find the open man easily. Bonner provides him with leg room, of sorts. Even when Bonner isn't scoring, he surprisingly impactful. He opens the drive lanes for Parker, Neal, & Manu and keeps a big away from the rim. Last season, many of the spurs best +- rotations included Bonner.

Tiago Splitter-Bonner’s impact on Splitters game is similar to Duncan’s. Splitter can score in the low post. Allowing Bonner to play alongside Splitter, his range stretches the D and clears the lanes for Jackson, Mills, and Neal & Manu. Also Splitter has an easier time finishing the pick and roll without an opposing PF attempting to challenge him at the rim. When Bonner & Splitter played together in the 1st quarter @, Miami Bonner forced Rashard Lewis away from the rim as a result Splitter score 4 baskets of pick and rolls,

Boris Diaw-While the two have played sparingly together, Bonner impacts him as well. Diaw is easily the most versatile player on the team. For most of his time in San Antonio he has played Center. Due to injuries he’s also played both PF & SF this season. Diaw is not nearly as good of a perimeter shooter as Bonner is.

Diaw is a career 33.5% 3pt shooter but has shot much better than that number in the past. In the ‘10-11 season, he hit 70-167 (42 3pt %) with the Bobcats. Part of Diaw’s value is his ability to stretch the floor and his passing. He needs to shoot more from downtown in order to receive more minutes in the rotation. In 20 games last regular season (with the spurs) he went 8-13 (61.5 3pt %). this season he’s went 9-18 (50%) in 18 games.

Diaw has been benched late in some games recently in favor of Bonner. Bonner can more effective that Diaw in stretches. Take the .Clippers game just before the road trip, for example. He hit 3 3’s in the 4th quarter and his presence kept Blake away from the rim.


Bonner also brings defense to the table as well as shooting. While he is usually considered to be the worst defender on the spurs, he isn’t nearly as bad as he is made out to be. He is an excellent post defender. He stands his ground, moves his feet accordingly, and keeps his arms raised avoiding swing through's & up and under moves.
After Duncan & Splitter, he is the best rotating big we have. He seldom if ever is late rotating to the weak side. He gets to the spot, on time, with arms raised forcing opposing wings to adjust. While he's not Varejao (understatement of the year?), He is useful in stretches, defensively, against big front lines.

Against Memphis, was case and point. Randolph posts, pivots, pump fakes, leans into the defender to keep them from jumping straight up, and he is able to adjust and shoot over bigger players. Bonner doesn't go for pump fakes easily. Since Bonner keeps his arms high and in the sight of refs, Z-Bo is forced to back him down closer to the rim for a more difficult basket given his lack of height and Duncan’s help defense.

The Spurs "post defense handbook" usually sends wings to the post to swipe at the ball (the almost never actually attempt to steal it) it’s sort of a, hurry the hell up move. Defenders may believe that an aggressive double is coming after several "decoy double teams" and take a shot that isn't the best he could have taken. Manu has perfected this, roam to the post, swipe and return to wing, without giving up an open look from the perimeter.

Without making a trade, the spurs already have enough talent and depth to compete with any teams front-line. Having Bonner on the team is much more of an asset than an liability. Against teams like the Clippers & Grizzlies and even the Lakers he can be effective offensively without hurting the team defensively.

[Obstructed_View]

Only by leaving it.

[rmt]

Color me skeptic. This is your typical regular season Bonner. Don't know why people do this? How many times must he choke in the playoffs for people to accept that he can't handle the pressure? He can rack up the 3s, be king of the +/- in the regular season and fool people into thinking that maybe this time will be different. Same old story.

[Josh810]

Only by leaving it.

[slick'81]

he spreads the floor that is a improvement for shoo

[therealtruth]

Color me skeptic. This is your typical regular season Bonner. Don't know why people do this? How many times must he choke in the playoffs for people to accept that he can't handle the pressure? He can rack up the 3s, be king of the +/- in the regular season and fool people into thinking that maybe this time will be different. Same old story.

He should never have got that many chances.

[TrainOfThought5]

I'm assuming this thread is an elaborate joke and troll job. in which case you've done well... 8/10

[cd021]

Color me skeptic. This is your typical regular season Bonner. Don't know why people do this? How many times must he choke in the playoffs for people to accept that he can't handle the pressure? He can rack up the 3s, be king of the +/- in the regular season and fool people into thinking that maybe this time will be different. Same old story.


As Charles Barley says "Role play better at home in the post season", Superstars are supposed to take over on the road". He only averaged 10 mpg in the post season, You act as though he's A-ROD. He can produce in the post season in limited minutes, 10 mpg is enough time to see if he can get it going. Even if he doesn't score he is still valuable.

If he can, he can rack up points in bunches. Adjust your expectations for a player who's making less than the league average, yet is one of the most efficient offensive players in the league (seldom turns the ball over, high pts per attempt rate)

[cd021]

I'm assuming this thread is an elaborate joke and troll job. in which case you've done well... 8/10

8/10 really? i was hoping for a perfect 10. Seriously any advanced stat would tell you how awesome the spurs are when he is on the floor. Zach Lowe (One of the few national writes who actually takes the Spurs seriously) stated that when he was on the floor last season the spurs where scoring at historic rates. $4 Million for that, You must be high if you don't think some of that is Bonner's doing.

[Manufan909]

I'm assuming this thread is an elaborate joke and troll job. in which case you've done well... 8/10

This. Duncan is directly and indirectly the entire reason why the Spurs frontline has shown improvement this season. And that's with Diaw in a prolonged funk.

[DesignatedT]

To be honest, Bonner is a pretty damn good regular season big. He plays within the system and for the most part plays well... even when his shot isn't going down.

Problem is this takes a 180 come playoff time and we all know what happens at that point.

[Drz]

I agree with pretty much everything cd021 said.

I noticed some junk responses saying stuff flike "troll," without saying why. A couple trotted out the postseason argument, but we're not in the postseason. Someone at this point inevitably will trot out the "why play him now because then Pop will play him in the postseason," yet another baseless argument; we've learned via DeJuan Blair that Pop has no problem playing someone in the regular season and sitting them in the playoffs.

cd021, keep up the good points and the education. :toast Ignore the people who attack your post without providing any evidence to the contrary. I have learned over time that their minds are closed.

[DesignatedT]

No problem here seeing Bonner take Blair's minutes. Whichever one you want to play though won't cut it come playoff time. That's fact.

[playblair]

No problem here seeing Bonner take Blair's minutes. Whichever one you want to play though won't cut it come playoff time. That's fact.

no it isnt ... blair was benched the last 2 playoffs = spurs eliminated .....

[DesignatedT]

lol

[SenorSpur]

Only by leaving it.

^ This

[SenorSpur]

Color me skeptic. This is your typical regular season Bonner. Don't know why people do this? How many times must he choke in the playoffs for people to accept that he can't handle the pressure? He can rack up the 3s, be king of the +/- in the regular season and fool people into thinking that maybe this time will be different. Same old story.

^ and this.

[TrainOfThought5]

I agree with pretty much everything cd021 said.

I noticed some junk responses saying stuff flike "troll," without saying why. A couple trotted out the postseason argument, but we're not in the postseason. Someone at this point inevitably will trot out the "why play him now because then Pop will play him in the postseason," yet another baseless argument; we've learned via DeJuan Blair that Pop has no problem playing someone in the regular season and sitting them in the playoffs.

cd021, keep up the good points and the education. :toast Ignore the people who attack your post without providing any evidence to the contrary. I have learned over time that their minds are closed.

my mind is indeed closed with Swiss Vault like security to ANY idea of Bonner being a help to our frontline.

[SenorSpur]

Having Bonner on the team is much more of an asset than an liability. Against teams like the Clippers & Grizzlies and even the Lakers he can be effective offensively without hurting the team defensively.

Uh, I don't think so.

This is where you lost me.

[TrainOfThought5]

I briefly contemplated constructing a 10 paragraph essay on why Bonner doesnt help when it matters most... rife with statistics, expert observation, and a few F bombs. but then i remembered this thread is a joke and a troll job.

[Splits]

Bonner’s impact on Splitters game is similar to Duncan’s

This may be the best sentence I've ever read on ST.

[Sean Cagney]

We go through this crap every damn year, if you think it will change things then you are still delusional. Bonner is BONNER, a good 5th big and a role player at best. He will choke in the playoffs and we all know that by now, he is not a saviour nor a key link to another title and thats proven. He is what he is.

[maverick1948]

no it isnt ... blair was benched the last 2 playoffs = spurs eliminated .....

Bonner 2012 playoffs 10-1 when playing 0-3 when on the bench.

[cd021]

I agree with pretty much everything cd021 said.

I noticed some junk responses saying stuff flike "troll," without saying why. A couple trotted out the postseason argument, but we're not in the postseason. Someone at this point inevitably will trot out the "why play him now because then Pop will play him in the postseason," yet another baseless argument; we've learned via DeJuan Blair that Pop has no problem playing someone in the regular season and sitting them in the playoffs.

cd021, keep up the good points and the education. :toast Ignore the people who attack your post without providing any evidence to the contrary. I have learned over time that their minds are closed.

Thanks. I will. People tend to say stuff online that they would never be able to say face to face.

[ElNono]

No problem here seeing Bonner take Blair's minutes. Whichever one you want to play though won't cut it come playoff time. That's fact.

Pretty much this. That said, you expect Tim's minutes to go up during the playoffs and the rotations to shorten... so the only problem would be with Matt eating Splitter minutes

[cd021]

This may be the best sentence I've ever read on ST.

Your sarcasm is pretty vague. Duncan and Splitter essentially play the same roles Duncan is just way better at it. Duncan pick and pops Splitter Pick & rolls. Splitter is actually an efficient post scorer (he does turn the ball over in the post too much though)

[cd021]

http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/2012/12/04/matt-bonners-underrated-defense/
For All of those who don't believe Bonner helps the front line

Bonner's Post Defense
2009-10: 0.84 points per post-up, 114th in the NBA – 122 post-ups, 47 for 108 shooting (43.5 percent), eight turnovers.

2010-11: 0.74 points per post-up, 48th in the NBA – 105 post-ups, 30 for 85 shooting (35.3 percent), 11 turnovers.

2011-12: 0.67 points per post-up, 28th in the NBA – 108 post-ups, 27 for 85 shooting (31.8 percent), 13 turnovers.

2012-13: 0.67 points per post-up, not enough to rank – six post-ups, 1 for 4 shooting (25 percent), one turnover.


Men Lie, Women Lie, Number's Don't

[Splits]

Your sarcasm is pretty vague. Duncan and Splitter essentially play the same roles Duncan is just way better at it. Duncan pick and pops Splitter Pick & rolls. Splitter is actually an efficient post scorer (he does turn the ball over in the post too much though)

That's not how I read what you wrote, which really didn't make any sense. I read it as you saying Bonner has shaped Splitter's game the same way Bonner has shaped Duncan's game. Like Bonner's a factor in their development or something.

[ElNono]

http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/2012/12/04/matt-bonners-underrated-defense/
For All of those who don't believe Bonner helps the front line

Bonner's Post Defense
2009-10: 0.84 points per post-up, 114th in the NBA – 122 post-ups, 47 for 108 shooting (43.5 percent), eight turnovers.

2010-11: 0.74 points per post-up, 48th in the NBA – 105 post-ups, 30 for 85 shooting (35.3 percent), 11 turnovers.

2011-12: 0.67 points per post-up, 28th in the NBA – 108 post-ups, 27 for 85 shooting (31.8 percent), 13 turnovers.

2012-13: 0.67 points per post-up, not enough to rank – six post-ups, 1 for 4 shooting (25 percent), one turnover.


Men Lie, Women Lie, Number's Don't

that's all cool. What are his numbers for the playoff?

[cd021]

no it isnt ... blair was benched the last 2 playoffs = spurs eliminated .....

Are numbers to back that up? I bet you blame Pop for not playing Rasho against Dirk and the Mavs in the '06-07 Playoffs.

Its coincidental that we were eliminated and Blair played sparingly.

[ElNono]

Even Drz, Bonner lover extraordinaire agrees Bonner production in the playoffs took a nose dive... this isn't up for discussion anymore.

Now if you're saying he should see more regular season run... okay. But to me it's a waste of time: you can't count on him when it matters.

[ElNono]

And FWIW, this season the Spurs have proven one more time that Matty has nothing to do with the Spurs playing well and winning. He didn't sniff substantial minutes until the Miami game, and the Spurs still had the 2nd best record in the league.

[TheSkeptic]

Even Drz (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=11551), Bonner lover extraordinaire agrees Bonner production in the playoffs took a nose dive... this isn't up for discussion anymore.

Now if you're saying he should see more regular season run... okay. But to me it's a waste of time: you can't count on him when it matters.

I actually don't have a problem with giving him Blair's minutes to start in the regular season. Pop would just need to ease into a 3 big rotation so that the guys are used to the minute increase in time for the playoffs.

For the record, I completely agree with the OP. Regular season Bonner is a decent player to have on the court and his abilities as a stretch 4 add a new dimension. He'll definitely help you win ball games. The issue is more him wilting when the pressure's on. I like how Pop's handled the situation this season.

[ElNono]

I actually don't have a problem with giving him Blair's minutes to start in the regular season. Pop would just need to ease into a 3 big rotation so that the guys are used to the minute increase in time for the playoffs.

I'm so fed up with Blair, I agree. The only obvious concern is Pop's love affair with Matty, which makes him think he can do the same in May.

[cd021]

What do you expect from someone being paid under the league average.

Ginobili was outperformed by Brent Barry against the La Lakers in '08
Parker, & Duncan both under performed against the Grizzlies in the '10 Playoffs
Parker & Duncan struggled against the Thunder late in '11 Playoffs

Regular season matters games have to be played, minutes have to be filled. He fills them and produces at an efficient clip.

Playoffs are irrelevant part of the argument. If he also hasn't played nearly enough minutes for the same stats to be compiled.Benches shorten starters play more minutes. Bonner can't be blamed for Pop playing 8 or 9 can he? Stars justify their contracts in the postseason. He has more than justified his. Your argument is pretty laughable your acting like he ponzied the spurs out money.

[cd021]

that's all cool. What are his numbers for the playoff?

What do you expect from someone being paid under the league average.

Ginobili was outperformed by Brent Barry against the La Lakers in '08
Parker, & Duncan both under performed against the Grizzlies in the '10 Playoffs
Parker & Duncan struggled against the Thunder late in '11 Playoffs

Regular season matters games have to be played, minutes have to be filled. He fills them and produces at an efficient clip.

Playoffs are irrelevant part of the argument. If he also hasn't played nearly enough minutes for the same stats to be compiled.Benches shorten starters play more minutes. Bonner can't be blamed for Pop playing 8 or 9 can he? Stars justify their contracts in the postseason. He has more than justified his. Your argument is pretty laughable your acting like he ponzied the spurs out money.

[ElNono]

Playoffs are irrelevant part of the argument.

For a team like the Spurs who have consistently made the playoffs and have championship aspirations, the playoffs are the main focus and goal.

I mean, after all, you don't get a trophy for winning the regular season.

And I'm not even going to go with "what he gets paid". That's completely irrelevant to his inconsistency. All Spurs players are paid to produce in *ALL* games. Some games they do, some games they don't. The problem for Matty is that he *consistently* tanks during the playoffs. Bones was great in 2005-2007. And I don't think I have to say anything about Tony, Manu and Duncan.

[ElNono]

Again, if your argument is "he should get more regular season minutes", okay... I can buy that. The problem is that it doesn't scale into the postseason.

We can run through the numbers (we've done it many times before)... when the playoffs roll around, he chokes. Most (in some instances ALL) of his numbers drop in the playoffs, sometimes considerably. We're talking about a guy that's a one trick pony to begin with.

[ElNono]

BTW, nothing personal, I appreciate your writeup (which I hope to read when I have some time). This discussion about Matty is entering it's 4th season now (at the very least).

He's a hard worker and a good guy, but he chokes. There would be nothing that would make me happier to see him grab more than 6 rebounds consistently and seeing him not shrivel up in the playoffs.

But the next time that happens will be the first.

[TheSkeptic]

I'm so fed up with Blair, I agree. The only obvious concern is Pop's love affair with Matty, which makes him think he can do the same in May.

That does worry me a bit because of all the history there but it really seems like Pop has turned over a new leaf this season. I don't want to take this game's rotation too seriously since the team was obviously missing players, but the coach seems to know he can't count on Bonner now. I like his treatment of Diaw and Splitter this year, his handling of the backcourt, his in-game adjustments, and so on.

Hmm...I'm actually inclined to say that until we start seeing more evidence of an unhealthy Bonner dependence, I'm going to trust Pop's judgement for now.

[ElNono]

That does worry me a bit because of all the history there but it really seems like Pop has turned over a new leaf this season. I don't want to take this game's rotation too seriously since the team was obviously missing players, but the coach seems to know he can't count on Bonner now. I like his treatment of Diaw and Splitter this year, his handling of the backcourt, his in-game adjustments, and so on.

Hmm...I'm actually inclined to say that until we start seeing more evidence of an unhealthy Bonner dependence, I'm going to trust Pop's judgement for now.

He's got his usual 20 minutes tonight. Granted, he pulled down 12 boards, so when he does that you can't complain. But that kind of run isn't a good sign.

Then again, maybe once Jack is back, he can play the small-ball jack lineup (which I like), and this won't be an issue.

[TheSkeptic]

He's got his usual 20 minutes tonight. Granted, he pulled down 12 boards, so when he does that you can't complain. But that kind of run isn't a good sign.

Then again, maybe once Jack is back, he can play the small-ball jack lineup (which I like), and this won't be an issue.

Agreed. Bonner's been going hard after the boards lately. But after what happened last playoffs, I'd be surprised (and furious) if Bonner was getting minutes like this in the playoffs.

I think Kawhi's another option I'd take over Bonner at the backup 4 as well. Anyway, I'm more or less thinking Bonner drops out of the rotation or plays Blair's minutes once Jax/Kawhi are back.

At least that's what I keep telling myself. If Matty starts taking minutes from Diaw or Tiago that'll be a serious problem.

[DesignatedT]

Seeing Pop playing Tim and Tiago together this season gives me some hope that he will use it come playoff time. Diaw-Duncan-Splitter all getting heavy minutes MIGHT be able to cut it as the big rotation in the playoffs with Bonner getting spot minutes. Can't emphasize that last part enough. Spot minutes. As in a situational 3 or offense is struggling so put him in for the last 4 minutes of the quarter type of shit. He should never EVER see the court in the 4th quarter unless it's a blowout.

[DesignatedT]

Plus, against teams that go small the Spurs will/should use Tony-Manu-Leonard-Jack-Tim lineup. Which was by far our best lineup last year during the WCF.

[ElNono]

Seeing Pop playing Tim and Tiago together this season gives me some hope that he will use it come playoff time. Diaw-Duncan-Splitter all getting heavy minutes MIGHT be able to cut it as the big rotation in the playoffs with Bonner getting spot minutes. Can't emphasize that last part enough. Spot minutes. As in a situational 3 or offense is struggling so put him in for the last 4 minutes of the quarter type of shit. He should never EVER see the court in the 4th quarter unless it's a blowout.

I'll buy this. I think it's going to be heavily dependent on Splitter not shitting the bed from the freebie line. So far so good.

[cd021]

For a team like the Spurs who have consistently made the playoffs and have championship aspirations, the playoffs are the main focus and goal.

I mean, after all, you don't get a trophy for winning the regular season.

And I'm not even going to go with "what he gets paid". That's completely irrelevant to his inconsistency. All Spurs players are paid to produce in *ALL* games. Some games they do, some games they don't. The problem for Matty is that he *consistently* tanks during the playoffs. Bones was great in 2005-2007. And I don't think I have to say anything about Tony, Manu and Duncan.

Playoffs do matter I meant with the context of the title of the thread it was irrelevant. Without strong regular season play their isn't post season play (we both should be able to agree on as much) you seem to be underrating the regular season. That can't be underrated especially from an older team that has to account for 48 minutes at each of the 5 positions 82 times a year. Bonner plays about 75 games a season at 20mpg. He produces at a high rate in those minutes.

That is not an opinion, that is fact virtually any advanced stat will prove that. Players are paid to produce but their contract aren't usually earned based on post season play. The ones that do usually turnout to be outrageously bad in the long run (Jermaine James, for example by for Seattle played great against the Kings and got a 6 year 60 million deal, that became one of the worst contracts in league history).

As I said before rotations shorten, Starters play more minutes. That directly impacts his production. Duncan will play about 35 minutes a game in the playoffs. That leaves a total of 61 minutes to be divided between Bonner, Blair, Splitter, Jackson, & Diaw. (Follow me so far?) Splitter will take about 22, Diaw about 24, that leaves about 16 minutes for 3 players, with Jackson closing out games at PF that leaves about 8 (10 tops) if Bonner plays he will have to produce at the same clip that he does in the regular season in half the time.

Your argument that he doesn't produce in the playoffs isn't entirely accurate. He stretches the floor, team play man to man without doubling nearly as much in the postseason. Even without the big 3 drawing doubles. He forces bigs (ala Blake, Z-BO Pau Gasol) away from the rim. That is invaluable and difficult to put into numbers. +,- is close but can be incredible misleading at times. Its like the shot blocker argument, just because he doesn't block shots a doesn't mean he didn't have an impact defensively.

[ElNono]

Without strong regular season play their isn't post season play (we both should be able to agree on as much) you seem to be underrating the regular season.

I simply disagree Bonner is a difference maker in that area. The Spurs can and should make the playoffs as constructed and barring severe injuries to it's stars, regardless if Matt Bonner plays or not.

You could tell me the Spurs would win 50 games instead of 55-60 without Matt, but in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter. In the long term, you're better off getting a team ready without depending on a player that will disappear come May.


Your argument that he doesn't produce in the playoffs isn't entirely accurate.

Use the search function. It's your friend, and you'll see its completely accurate. King of plus/minus has not posted a positive plus minus for at least the past two playoffs. At least last playoffs, his stats (ALL of them) have gone down.

Feel free to prove me wrong on that one.

[cd021]

BTW, nothing personal, I appreciate your writeup (which I hope to read when I have some time). This discussion about Matty is entering it's 4th season now (at the very least).

He's a hard worker and a good guy, but he chokes. There would be nothing that would make me happier to see him grab more than 6 rebounds consistently and seeing him not shrivel up in the playoffs.

Thanks. It took some time to write. That kind of why I'm defending it this hard. All I'm really saying is he isn't nearly as bad as people are making him out to be. That being said I actually like the small ball lineups of Tony, Manu, Kawhi, Jackson, & Duncan. Diaw could become more of asset in those lineups when he isn't passive. But for the money he isn't bad at all. Agree to disagree i guess.
But the next time that happens will be the first.

[ElNono]

It's all good. I've had this conversation over the past 4 seasons with Mel_13, z0sa, and probably a bunch of other guys... the whole "he isn't as bad as people make him out to be" is a common theme during the regular season. But it's shortsighted, and Matty sure loves to prove me right when May rolls around. :lol

[Obstructed_View]

I bet you blame Pop for not playing Rasho against Dirk and the Mavs in the '06-07 Playoffs.

I'm unsure who else there is to blame for that. It's not like Rasho and Nazr asked not to play. Also, really terrible analogy.

[jjktkk]

The key with Bonner, is to have a alternate plan in the playoffs, once/if Matty doesn't produce.

[cd021]

The problem i have with plus/minus is that it generally has less to do with one player than it does with who is playing with him and against them.

Example
PG-Chalmers
SG-Wade
SF-Lebron
PF-Bosh
C-Joell Anthony

Anthony is a valuable player is spurts (i can't stress spurts enough) but playing with the big 3 20 minutes a game is obviously going to inflate his value when he looking at plus/minus. He could play poorly but James could be going for 15 in 5 minutes and his plus minus would be say +9

Example
PG-Cole
SG-Allen
SF-Battier
PF-Pitman
C-Joell Anthony

Anthony could actually be playing well with this lineup and but the other teams outscores this lineup 15-5 and Joell would have -10. It can be misleading especially when looking at 10 post season games and about 10 mpg compared to 75 games and 20mpg. It would like Ichiro batting .316 in 524 at bats and in the postseason hit .250 in 20 at bats. The playoffs (in both scenarios) isn't nearly enough of a sample size and really depends on who he is playing with and who he is playing against.

[cd021]

I'm unsure who else there is to blame for that. It's not like Rasho and Nazr asked not to play. Also, really terrible analogy.

It was a great analogy Blair ,not playing, didn't cost us the title back to back seasons.
Rasho had no business being on the floor against Dirk , so we didn't play him, that had no barring on us losing the series either.

[Brunodf]

Blair should be benched, he is playing horrible lately, Diaw or Splitter should start.

[Obstructed_View]

It was a great analogy Blair ,not playing, didn't cost us the title back to back seasons.
Rasho had no business being on the floor against Dirk , so we didn't play him, that had no barring on us losing the series either.

That's precisely why it's a shitty analogy. Benching the center rotation for a 62 win team DID cost the Spurs the title.

[superjames1992]

12 rebounds in 23 minutes.

[024]

Spurs have the learn to win without Matt Bonner. Pop should figure out its playoff roster halfway through the season and march out the same roster night after night. No more play Matt Bonner or start Blair in the regular season, then when they fail in the playoffs (Bonner fails but Blair is still decent off the bench), quickly switch to Diaw. If Pop doesn't believe in either Bonner or Diaw, sign someone new or make a trade. This way, the Spurs will learn to win through defense and grinding games out instead of Bonner's 3's. Because those 3's will not be falling in the playoffs.

[SayTown]

Bonner=Fools Gold

[ginobilized]

Bonner is playing well right now. That's a good thing.
We are winning. That's a good thing.

Given the circumstances of Bonner's minutes going away, he's handled this very well and has kept sharp and actually improved some of his weakness in defense and rebounding.

Nothing but positives there.

[Seventyniner]

This is all irrelevant anyway. Wages of Wins showed that nearly all championship teams get the vast majority of a team's production in the playoffs is from the top 6 players. Bonner is great for racking up regular season wins, and should be glued to the bench for the playoffs.

One problem with the Spurs roster is that it's hard to find a clear 7- or 8-man playoff rotation. Duncan/Splitter/Diaw up front, Green/Manu/Kawhi/Jax on the wings, and Tony/Neal at PG is as close as I can get, and that's 9 players.

[HI-FI]

Bonner is playing well right now. That's a good thing.
We are winning. That's a good thing.

Given the circumstances of Bonner's minutes going away, he's handled this very well and has kept sharp and actually improved some of his weakness in defense and rebounding.

Nothing but positives there.

exactly. unlike Blair who I worry will have another meltdown if he doesn't get minutes, Bonner just got the message and realizes he needs to work a lot harder at things, especially if his shot isn't falling. I'd love nothing more for him to prove the haters wrong in the playoffs, of course he hasn't done that yet. So if we could just use him minimally, and if he is able to come up with a decent shot or rebounding in limited minutes, it will be great for us.

[DAF86]

I don't know but he sure is better than Blair.

[Mel_13]

It's all good. I've had this conversation over the past 4 seasons with Mel_13, z0sa, and probably a bunch of other guys... the whole "he isn't as bad as people make him out to be" is a common theme during the regular season. But it's shortsighted, and Matty sure loves to prove me right when May rolls around. :lol

We had conversations about Bonner in 08-09 and 09-10, but it wasn't this one. To the extent that I've posted about Bonner since then, it was to insist that those building a case against him stick to actual facts. With all the limitations in Bonner's game, it's ridiculous that people have to make stuff to bolster their case.

[KL2]

The Spurs must limit Bonner's minutes at all costs. I think one of the biggest reasons the offenses has been so shitty in the po's was because Pop made Bonner such a big factor in the regular season.

These guys get used to his floor spacing in the RS, but once the playoffs start that floor spacing is gone because the guy ALWAYS chokes, teams start letting him brick wide open 3s or his release is too slow. That spacing that was there is gone, it totally changes the offense, guys are then trying to figure out how to score.

Get rid of him or limit his minutes and the Spurs will eventually adapt like they are now.

Having Bonner is like having a key player get injured every single time the playoffs start.

[therealtruth]

He's got his usual 20 minutes tonight. Granted, he pulled down 12 boards, so when he does that you can't complain. But that kind of run isn't a good sign.

Then again, maybe once Jack is back, he can play the small-ball jack lineup (which I like), and this won't be an issue.

I don't care if Bonner drops 20 and 20. I still wouldn't trust him in the playoffs. Where the heck was that Bonner? If he was just not playing as hard before then it seems like putting him in the 5th big position worked. Which is why some competition is usually good for teams. If players know they're guaranteed minutes it's all too easy to mail it in.

[therealtruth]

That's precisely why it's a shitty analogy. Benching the center rotation for a 62 win team DID cost the Spurs the title.

It's ironic Avery Johnson did the same thing against the Warriors and got killed for it. When you are the team that wins more games you don't adjust to the other team. It's the other team that should worry about adjusting to you. It sends a ridiculous message to your players. We're the better team but we're trying to adjust to them.

[therealtruth]

This is all irrelevant anyway. Wages of Wins showed that nearly all championship teams get the vast majority of a team's production in the playoffs is from the top 6 players. Bonner is great for racking up regular season wins, and should be glued to the bench for the playoffs.

One problem with the Spurs roster is that it's hard to find a clear 7- or 8-man playoff rotation. Duncan/Splitter/Diaw up front, Green/Manu/Kawhi/Jax on the wings, and Tony/Neal at PG is as close as I can get, and that's 9 players.

It's not a problem. The 2007 championship team had a 10 man rotation.

[ElNono]

We had conversations about Bonner in 08-09 and 09-10, but it wasn't this one. To the extent that I've posted about Bonner since then, it was to insist that those building a case against him stick to actual facts. With all the limitations in Bonner's game, it's ridiculous that people have to make stuff to bolster their case.

Fair enough, Mel

[cd021]

That's precisely why it's a shitty analogy. Benching the center rotation for a 62 win team DID cost the Spurs the title.

Spurs won 63 in '06-07, 09-10 we won 61 games which Center are you talking about?

Rasho couldn't defend Marquis Daniels/Stackhouse in their small ball lineup. When Dirk actually played the 4 and when Damp/Diop played center Mohammad was in the game and was a better defender than Rasho.

Blair didn't match-up well against the two trees known as Gasol & Randolph. He even had trouble defending the likes of Darrell Arthur. McDyess was a better option even at 36 he was still very athletic and mobile. He also could consistently hit jumpers and rebounded at nearly the same rate as Blair without being nearly as much of a liability on defense. Randolph simply had an insane series. If their was one criticism you could levy at Pop was that Duncan should have guarded Randolph in the 2nd half of games.

Blair should have played more against OKC simply because he is more agile in finishing on pick and rolls. But against UTAH you must be joking. late in games they were playing 3 player over 6'10. He definitely couldn't guard Millsap let alone Jefferson. Favors in a legit 7'0 and is athletic as well he would have hurt the team by being on the floor.

Last year Stephen Jackson didn't play nearly as much in the Clippers series than he did in the OKC series. Pop's reasoning was match ups. They played Griffin, Martin and or Evans. Other than Blake their wasn't really someone he could really guard late in games as a small ball 4.

Blair may have been a decent match up against Blake in the post but he tends to gamble of steals. Bonner was a much better choice, Bonner is actually one of the better post defenders in the league and can space the floor much better than Blair.

Raise your hand if your a HOF coach or someone second guessing his decision making on a message board.

[cd021]

It's ironic Avery Johnson did the same thing against the Warriors and got killed for it. When you are the team that wins more games you don't adjust to the other team. It's the other team that should worry about adjusting to you. It sends a ridiculous message to your players. We're the better team but we're trying to adjust to them.

Who cares what message its sending?. Thats more of a media mindset, players understand that every team has strengths and weaknesses, if your opponent strength is your weakness then its on you to do something about it not worry about how it looks. You play to win the game.

Each series, each game is a life of its own. That being said Nelie and the Warriors were stacked through & through. Dirk didn't have the post play he has now and struggled against Jackson and Harrington. Biedren's (I'm positive i misspelled that) could play the 5 and rebound the ball like crazy (when he was actually good) without hurting the team on offense.

Its like staying on a sinking ship, who cares if you panic as long as you're do every thing you can to stay afloat.

[cd021]

The Spurs must limit Bonner's minutes at all costs. I think one of the biggest reasons the offenses has been so shitty in the po's was because Pop made Bonner such a big factor in the regular season.

These guys get used to his floor spacing in the RS, but once the playoffs start that floor spacing is gone because the guy ALWAYS chokes, teams start letting him brick wide open 3s or his release is too slow. That spacing that was there is gone, it totally changes the offense, guys are then trying to figure out how to score.

Get rid of him or limit his minutes and the Spurs will eventually adapt like they are now.

Having Bonner is like having a key player get injured every single time the playoffs start.


Where to begin? 1st someone who plays less than half of a game can't be blamed for every thing that happens in the other 28 minutes he doesn't play. Last season are offense was fine for the 10 games & Bonner was in the rotation. Bonner seldom played in the final 4 games (without double checking I'm sure their was a DNP mixed in) and the Spurs lost all 4.

Based on your logic Bonner actually had no impact ,what so ever, on the Spurs playoff failure. Bonner played half of his RS minutes in the Playoffs. Pop apparently took your advice, and it didn't work.

As for him bricking open shots, In post season over the last 2 seasons. Bonner rarely saw open looks. Thats to be expected, games every other night playing one team at least 4 times studying tape and prior familiarity with the team in the RS.

Had he started he would have received more open looks and I will put money every time on a wide open Bonner. His 42% career 3pt percentage was 8% higher than the league average last year. Green struggled clanking open looks while playing with Parker & Duncan almost exclusively. Its odd you over look him, but go right to Bonner even though he played sporadically with a mesh of different players playing along side of him.

The Spurs offense was #1 in offensive efficiency and #2 in PPG. The teams offense was a juggernaut with or without Bonner.

[cd021]

Define substantial, because he played the entire 4th in the Clippers game prior too that. Bonner spot in the rotation has always been fluid. That isn't exactly what my argument was. My argument was essentially that just having him on the roster at Pops disposal as a "5th big" or a 5 1/2 big (with Sjax playing the last 6-8 minutes of tight games as a small ball PF) made each big not named Duncan or Splitter play harder and or more effectively in order to cement their spot in the rotation instead of losing it to Bonner.

[Obstructed_View]

Spurs won 63 in '06-07, 09-10 we won 61 games which Center are you talking about?
Actually, since you insist on being obtuse because I typed 62 instead of 63, I'll point out that the Spurs won 58 games in '06-07. Now that we've established that anyone can make a mistake, obviously we're tallking about the 2006 playoffs.


Rasho couldn't defend Marquis Daniels/Stackhouse in their small ball lineup. When Dirk actually played the 4 and when Damp/Diop played center Mohammad was in the game and was a better defender than Rasho.
Wrong. Dallas didn't run a small ball lineup enough to do that kind of damage, and Nazr and Rasho were both out of the rotation before the Mavericks series even started.

The only change Dallas made to the way they always played was to replace Adrian Griffin with Devin Harris after game 1 since he was finally healthy. Stackhouse, Daniels, Howard, and Harris were all getting past their man and going into the paint all series long, where they were challenged by either Michael Finley or Robert Horry alongside Duncan, (or NOT challenged if you'd like). It's why Duncan and Horry were in perpeutal foul trouble during the entire series.

Nazr was the starting center at the end of the year because Rasho had gotten injured. He was the starting center up until he hit a three pointer at the end of game 1 against Sacramento, and then his minutes diminished. By game 4, he'd lost his starting job to Rasho. By game 5, Horry was the starter. Game 1 against Dallas, Nazr and Rasho totalled 10 minutes of time combined. 15 in game 2 since nobody but Duncan showed up. Game 3, Rasho was DNP, Nazr got garbage time and Fabricio suddenly started getting minutes. There's not really any way to justify putting in a guy who had played fewer minutes than Beno Udrih beginning in game 3 of the conference semifinals, nor is there justification for using the same gadget lineups against Erick Dampier and Dirk Nowitzki as you used against Ron Artest and Bonzi Wells.

Here's the kicker: In game 7 against the Mavs, Horry only played 10 minutes. Michael Finley was the power forward for the Spurs, and he logged 47 minutes. Dampier and Diop totaled 35 minutes. That's 14 minutes max of Mavericks smallball, yet the Spurs played 52 minutes of it.

The Spurs' inability to defend at the rim and keep Duncan out of foul trouble was absolutely and without-a-doubt, the difference in the series.

Blair couldn't have that kind of impact on a playoff series if he brought a weapon to the game.

[Obstructed_View]

Blair didn't match-up well against the two trees known as Gasol & Randolph. He even had trouble defending the likes of Darrell Arthur. McDyess was a better option even at 36 he was still very athletic and mobile. He also could consistently hit jumpers and rebounded at nearly the same rate as Blair without being nearly as much of a liability on defense. Randolph simply had an insane series. If their was one criticism you could levy at Pop was that Duncan should have guarded Randolph in the 2nd half of games.
Actually, if THERE WERE one criticism you could LEVEL (yeah sorry that's just nitpicking :)) at Pop would be that Splitter should have been fully established in the rotation by that time. Another big criticism is that you don't just decide that one of your players "doesn't match up" and then stop playing him, particularly against a weaker opponent. One would think someone would have learned that lesson from 2006, though many of us know the "doesn't match up" argument is justification by Popsuckers well after the fact. That fallacy is only matched by the 'Arthur was tearing up Blair' line.


Blair should have played more against OKC simply because he is more agile in finishing on pick and rolls. But against UTAH you must be joking. late in games they were playing 3 player over 6'10. He definitely couldn't guard Millsap let alone Jefferson. Favors in a legit 7'0 and is athletic as well he would have hurt the team by being on the floor.

Last year Stephen Jackson didn't play nearly as much in the Clippers series than he did in the OKC series. Pop's reasoning was match ups. They played Griffin, Martin and or Evans. Other than Blake their wasn't really someone he could really guard late in games as a small ball 4.

Blair may have been a decent match up against Blake in the post but he tends to gamble of steals. Bonner was a much better choice, Bonner is actually one of the better post defenders in the league and can space the floor much better than Blair.

Raise your hand if your a HOF coach or someone second guessing his decision making on a message board.

The above must be directed toward someone else, as I'm already on record saying that Blair's playing time wasn't the difference in anything that happened in the playoffs the last two years. I do love that you spent several paragraphs second-guessing the coach on a message board, and then you call yourself out at the end. Well done.

[cd021]

Actually, since you insist on being obtuse because I typed 62 instead of 63, I'll point out that the Spurs won 58 games in '06-07. Now that we've established that anyone can make a mistake, obviously we're tallking about the 2006 playoffs.


Wrong. Dallas didn't run a small ball lineup enough to do that kind of damage, and Nazr and Rasho were both out of the rotation before the Mavericks series even started.

The only change Dallas made to the way they always played was to replace Adrian Griffin with Devin Harris after game 1 since he was finally healthy. Stackhouse, Daniels, Howard, and Harris were all getting past their man and going into the paint all series long, where they were challenged by either Michael Finley or Robert Horry alongside Duncan, (or NOT challenged if you'd like). It's why Duncan and Horry were in perpeutal foul trouble during the entire series.

Nazr was the starting center at the end of the year because Rasho had gotten injured. He was the starting center up until he hit a three pointer at the end of game 1 against Sacramento, and then his minutes diminished. By game 4, he'd lost his starting job to Rasho. By game 5, Horry was the starter. Game 1 against Dallas, Nazr and Rasho totalled 10 minutes of time combined. 15 in game 2 since nobody but Duncan showed up. Game 3, Rasho was DNP, Nazr got garbage time and Fabricio suddenly started getting minutes. There's not really any way to justify putting in a guy who had played fewer minutes than Beno Udrih beginning in game 3 of the conference semifinals, nor is there justification for using the same gadget lineups against Erick Dampier and Dirk Nowitzki as you used against Ron Artest and Bonzi Wells.

Here's the kicker: In game 7 against the Mavs, Horry only played 10 minutes. Michael Finley was the power forward for the Spurs, and he logged 47 minutes. Dampier and Diop totaled 35 minutes. That's 14 minutes max of Mavericks smallball, yet the Spurs played 52 minutes of it.

The Spurs' inability to defend at the rim and keep Duncan out of foul trouble was absolutely and without-a-doubt, the difference in the series.

Blair couldn't have that kind of impact on a playoff series if he brought a weapon to the game.

My mistake 05-06 we won 63 and lost to Dallas.

We apparently disagree on roster decisions. Horry was more mobile defending P&Rs granted he never had much of an impact offensive other than floor spacing. Duncan had a monster series in, part because Nazr & Rasho weren't in the other post. Dallas could of easily send another big to double Tim because they were only mediocre mid range shooters, compared to Horry who could hit 3's.

[cd021]

Actually, if THERE WERE one criticism you could LEVEL (yeah sorry that's just nitpicking :)) at Pop would be that Splitter should have been fully established in the rotation by that time. Another big criticism is that you don't just decide that one of your players "doesn't match up" and then stop playing him, particularly against a weaker opponent. One would think someone would have learned that lesson from 2006, though many of us know the "doesn't match up" argument is justification by Popsuckers well after the fact. That fallacy is only matched by the 'Arthur was tearing up Blair' line.

The above must be directed toward someone else, as I'm already on record saying that Blair's playing time wasn't the difference in anything that happened in the playoffs the last two years. I do love that you spent several paragraphs second-guessing the coach on a message board, and then you call yourself out at the end. Well done.



When did i second guess him?The quotes you picked actually doesn't critisize him at all. He is a hell of a coach. Do you think of theirs a better coach available with you "Popsucker" comment? Blair has history of playing well vs OKC Pop knew it and took it under consideration. He opted against it, i get it. I said he had problems defending Ahur, He didn't get dominated Arthur was just a difficult matchup. I'm a fan of Twilght but he got outplayed by Collison. Collison is fantastic at defending pick and rolls. His lateral quickness is insane I remeber several times he cut Neal, Manu and even Parker from getting to the rim. Splitter rolled and caught the ball near the rim only to be met by Collison who was set and had his arms raised making it a diffucult finish. Granted Splitter looked to pass out rather than taking it too him in hopes of drawing a foul (we both probably know why Splitter was hesitant at going to the line).

Matchup are matchups if one of your player struggles to defend another player, than you try to put in a situation where he can play his best. Your point I take was that the spurs needed 2 bigs in the game & the Mavs wings were driving to the lane and forcing Duncan to do his best Dwight impersantion. Fair enough but Rember every wing we played (except Parker, Manu may have been like 29) was at least 34. Terry, Harris, & Josh Howard were each either athletic, & or very quick. Parker actually said he was relieved that they traded Harris because he was a difficult cover. Horry defened P&Rs better than Rasho & Nazr. He also took charges.

Granted your memory seems to be better than mine about that series 6 years ago, Bowen played PF similar to Jackson now, for stretches, Duncan was playing heavy minutes (38mpg), so their wasn't a ton of "Big man" minutes to go around maybe 58 total minutes split between 4 other players . Horry average 17.5 minutes and the rest was small ball (split between Bowen, Barry, Finley). Dallas happened to be a juggernaunt offensively and playing Nazr & Rasho exclusive at Center gave the spurs about 13 pts a game (based on RS #s). Playing 4 wings who could hit 3's (Parker when wide open) forced Dallas to play Duncan straight up and Duncan forced Damp (5 Fouls Per 36 minutes), Diop (6 Fouls Per 36 minutes) & Mbenga (7 Fouls Per 36 minutes)into serious foul trouble. Remeber we came within a bad foul away from going to the WCF. Dallas finished only 3 games off from our record. They were just as good as us and we nearly won that series.

[cd021]

playoff bump

[Kidd K]

I agree with the main premise of the OP's point. Even when Bonner isn't putting shots into the basket, he is changing the opposing defense's strategy which opens things up. The main shitty thing about Bonner has been that this hasn't translated to the playoffs because his occaisional off-game turned into practically every night, so there wasn't much impact on the opposing defense since Bonner rarely made them pay for sneaking off him to help defend.

While Bonner doesn't need to be actively scoring to make a difference, it does need to come often enough to keep the defense honest. Right now he's doing that and it's getting results. Glad for Bonner. . .and more glad for us since Pop was gonna use him regardless. :lol

[ohmwrecker]

Bonner has been really good the last couple of games, but there is always a concern that one bad game could make him tailspin into an abyss of suck.