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Winehole23
12-08-2012, 03:43 PM
Since Republicans are pushing entitlement reform and Democrats like taking money from rich people, you might think they could agree on means-testing Medicare and Social Security as part of a deficit reduction deal. Yet many Democrats are surprisingly hostile to the idea of tailoring these programs to help people who actually need them.


There are two main reasons for this resistance — one strategic, the other ideological. Neither is persuasive, even from a progressive point of view, at a time when trillion-dollar deficits are the norm and publicly held federal debt is projected to reach 150 percent of gross domestic product within two decades.



”I don’t see want to see Medicare turn into a welfare program, which is what it would be if wealthier people didn’t benefit from it or had a significantly reduced benefit,” Rep. Keith Ellison (D-Minn.) told ABC’s George Stephanopoulos on Sunday. “It needs to be something shared that Americans are all in, that we all participate in and we all contribute to.” Ellison is co-chairman of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, which opposes any cuts to Medicare or Social Security benefits.


The strategic rationale for this position is that reducing or eliminating retirement subsidies for people who can easily get by without them would spoil the illusion that all of us are “entitled” to those benefits because we have “earned” them through our “contributions.” In reality, Medicare and Social Security are funded through intergenerational transfers from relatively poor workers to relatively affluent retirees.


That does not sound terribly progressive, but left-leaning opponents of means-testing worry that narrower versions of these programs would be politically vulnerable. “If Medicare turns from an earned benefit into a welfare program,” warns Max Richtman, president of the National Committee to Preserve Social Security and Medicare, “you will see support dissipate.”


There is not much evidence to support that prediction. In a 2010 Heritage Foundation report, Katherine Bradley and Robert Rector counted “over 70 different means-tested anti-poverty programs” and noted that spending on such programs “has grown faster than every other component of government over the past two decades.”


Furthermore, Medicare and Social Security already are transfer programs; they are just poorly targeted. If the aim is to prevent the elderly from sinking into poverty or to ensure that they can obtain the medical care they need, it hardly makes sense to use payroll taxes extracted from middle- and working-class employees to cut monthly checks to Michael Bloomberg or subsidize prescription drugs for Ross Perot.


Both programs do include some modest means tests. The monthly premiums that help fund Medicare are higher for wealthier beneficiaries, for example, and the share of Social Security benefits subject to tax is larger for retirees with higher incomes — functionally equivalent to reduced benefits.


But with Medicare and Social Security facing unfunded long-term liabilities of $42.8 trillion and $20.5 trillion, respectively, they need to move much further in the direction feared by Ellison and Richtman. As Andrew Biggs of the American Enterprise Institute observed last year in National Affairs, “It is inevitable that Social Security, Medicare, and other government programs will become less generous toward the rich than they are today.”


If progressives are having trouble adjusting to this reality, it is not only because they (mistakenly) believe means-testing will jeopardize these programs. As William Voegeli observes in his 2005 book “Never Enough: America’s Limitless Welfare State,” progressives’ counterintuitive resistance to means-testing also stems from a communitarian vision that sees universal participation in tax-funded social services as inherently good.


Voegeli quotes Robert Kuttner, co-editor of The American Prospect, who in his 1987 book “The Life of the Party” argued that “there is immense civic value to treating middle-class and poor people alike.” According to Kuttner, “a common social security program, or medical care program, or public school program” fosters “social solidarity.”


You may or may not find this vision appealing. Either way, we can no longer afford it.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/why_lefties_back_welfare_for_the_iI4UO6jPVfOfSauO9 GBSCM

admiralsnackbar
12-10-2012, 06:54 AM
The trouble I'm having with this article is it exaggerates the idea that taxes are being redistributed to the Bloombergs and Perots to the size of a straw colossus when even counting wealthy people of much more "modest" means still adds up to a statistical anomaly of a demographic. His caricature supports the thesis that progressives are snicker-worthy hippie faggits, but doesn't actually have the intellectual courage to dish the nitty gritty of what an equitable means-threshold would look like for Medicare.

At a time when medical costs are easily capable of bankrupting even upper middle-class families, it becomes a lot more tricky making cuts to medicare using a financial threshold that a substantial proportion of Americans can cross despite remaining exposed. Think about it: besides the dipshit bonhomie extolling the "immense civic value of treating middle-class and poor people alike," are the poor and middle-class families all that different in the eyes of the hospital billing office?

So do we define the threshold by an individual's health instead, so the gubmint can spend its savings paying doctors for constant diagnostic means-testing, or endangering individuals by employing unskilled bureaucrats to determine people's coverage/benefits (death panels!). Do we do it by age? Actuarial tables? Lack of intellectual courage?

To mock up my own straw-man, I'd argue that even abolishing Medicare outright would cost obscene money as the remaining handful of semi-monopolistic insurance conglomerates (accustomed to taking in revenue while letting Medicare substantially defray their expenses) would suddenly have to sing for their supper, meaning rates would inflate to cover true costs, massive layoffs would be necessary to reduce overhead, and all manner of tax-revenue-displacing economic shockwaves would ensue (shockwaves that would ironically make the rich insurance stockholders even richer than those homosexile puhgressives are doing now by paying for Forbe's Viagra scrip). ...All to say that while I agree that we can't afford these programs on some level, it isn't immediately clear to me that we can afford the alternatives much better. Ultimately, the elephant in the room this guy doesn't want to address is that Medicare recipients are just one side of the problem: our healthcare system is beginning to look an awful lot like a giant bubble, and Obamacare as I understand it is only going to delay the inevitable contraction that is necessary in the industry.

admiralsnackbar
12-10-2012, 06:55 AM
Sweet jeebus... Valero makes some good fucking coffee.

boutons_deux
12-10-2012, 09:22 AM
Sweet jeebus... Valero makes some good fucking coffee.

I think it's up to the local station operator which machine to use, not Valero. At least, I've not seen any consistency from station to station. The one that's not the standard American crap of brown water is the Cibolo Mountain dark roast at IH10 exit 543.

boutons_deux
12-10-2012, 09:38 AM
"bureaucrats to determine people's coverage/benefits"

they already do that, for profit.

doctors wouldn't do financial means testing, the IRS or other would.

This kind pure bullshit, distracting argument about Medicare is how the corporations, doctors,e tc maintain their impregnable wealth-sucking status.

a hard-core public insurance option open to everyone, including employees whose employers offer group plans, and paid for with income withholding is the answer. Of course, FIRE will absolutely succeed in killing any discussion of a PO.

Winehole23
12-10-2012, 10:05 AM
The trouble I'm having with this article is it exaggerates the idea that taxes are being redistributed to the Bloombergs and Perots to the size of a straw colossus when even counting wealthy people of much more "modest" means still adds up to a statistical anomaly of a demographic. His caricature supports the thesis that progressives are snicker-worthy hippie faggits, but doesn't actually have the intellectual courage to dish the nitty gritty of what an equitable means-threshold would look like for Medicare. it's my impression the Democratic caucus does lack the intellectual courage to to discuss means testing for Medicare. am I mistaken about that?


At a time when medical costs are easily capable of bankrupting even upper middle-class families, it becomes a lot more tricky making cuts to medicare using a financial threshold that a substantial proportion of Americans can cross despite remaining exposed. this seems true enough, but the inequitability of helping folks who well enough can afford it remains.


So do we define the threshold by an individual's health instead, so the gubmint can spend its savings paying doctors for constant diagnostic means-testing, or endangering individuals by employing unskilled bureaucrats to determine people's coverage/benefits (death panels!). Do we do it by age? Actuarial tables? Lack of intellectual courage?interesting ideas. I doubnt any of them get a hearing anytime soon.

Ultimately, the elephant in the room this guy doesn't want to address is that Medicare recipients are just one side of the problem: our healthcare system is beginning to look an awful lot like a giant bubble, and Obamacare as I understand it is only going to delay the inevitable contraction that is necessary in the industry.this seems intuitively correct to me; also, probably insoluble, short of said bubble bursting.

Winehole23
12-10-2012, 10:08 AM
Of course, FIRE will absolutely succeed in killing any discussion of a PO.FIRE?

boutons_deux
12-10-2012, 10:13 AM
"our healthcare system is beginning to look an awful lot like a giant bubble"

bubbles pop, the healthcare vampire-squid won't

TeyshaBlue
12-10-2012, 11:17 AM
I think it's up to the local station operator which machine to use, not Valero. At least, I've not seen any consistency from station to station. The one that's not the standard American crap of brown water is the Cibolo Mountain dark roast at IH10 exit 543.

Must be, cause Valero station coffee up here is crap.

admiralsnackbar
12-10-2012, 08:42 PM
it's my impression the Democratic caucus does lack the intellectual courage to to discuss means testing for Medicare. am I mistaken about that?


No, we agree, I think -- I do take exception to the insinuation that this is strictly a partisan or ideological failing, though. The GOP's core base lives within the Medicare program, and their children are knocking on its door, which can only weaken their political resolve however ideologically well-intentioned. Add to this the fact that the Republicans will be doubly cautious about alienating voters at large by tinkering with beloved programs like Medicare (suicidal Tea Party nitwits notwithstanding) and it seems to me we meet conditions which all-but-assure bipartisan, bicameral ostriching on the issue until the economy recovers and entitlement issues are less pronounced an issue for the polity (although a persuasive case can also be made for all this inflexible grandstanding from both parties simply being a new baseline for political discourse thanks to the huge expansion of the "24-hour" political entertainment journalism industry over the past 20 years.

Anyway, I've replaced the coffee with Chimay, and the Spurs ain't goan' watch theyselves, so cheerio, gents.

Nbadan
12-10-2012, 08:56 PM
“It is inevitable that Social Security, Medicare, and other government programs will become less generous toward the rich than they are today.”

Democrats don't think that means testing will make these programs feel more like entitlements, they just think that people should get what they were promised rather than another carrier or plane we don't need

Nbadan
12-10-2012, 09:09 PM
Don't take my word for it...ask the Governa...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ihUoRD4pYzI

Wild Cobra
12-11-2012, 03:42 AM
Well, the part Reagan got wrong is that there is no trust fund. It has zero or low interest rate bearing bonds to back it up, and that's it. It is a surplus into the budget that congress just spends.

Reagan's main point is spot on. SS has nothing to do with the budget or deficit.

Wild Cobra
12-11-2012, 03:57 AM
Well Propaganda Dan...

Gotta love Reagan's whit:

UOpkkFkifq0

Wild Cobra
12-11-2012, 03:59 AM
"I knew Thomas Jefferson"

-Ronald Reagan

Winehole23
12-11-2012, 04:18 AM
No, we agree, I think -- I do take exception to the insinuation that this is strictly a partisan or ideological failing, though. The GOP's core base lives within the Medicare program, and their children are knocking on its door, which can only weaken their political resolve however ideologically well-intentioned. Add to this the fact that the Republicans will be doubly cautious about alienating voters at large by tinkering with beloved programs like Medicare (suicidal Tea Party nitwits notwithstanding) and it seems to me we meet conditions which all-but-assure bipartisan, bicameral ostriching on the issue until the economy recovers and entitlement issues are less pronounced an issue for the polity (although a persuasive case can also be made for all this inflexible grandstanding from both parties simply being a new baseline for political discourse thanks to the huge expansion of the "24-hour" political entertainment journalism industry over the past 20 years.agree 100%


Anyway, I've replaced the coffee with Chimay...Why deny yourself coffee? Or was that just for the nonce?

Wild Cobra
12-11-2012, 04:19 AM
Moderate amounts of coffee helps keep the liver clean.